Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on November 19, 2007, 12:10:46 PM
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from (you guessed it) a Cary Tennis letter writer on Salon.com. A man was writing about his marriage:
The problem with liars of all sorts is that conversation does not work with them. Words, when coming from a liar, do not function. They don't carry information. They don't facilitate communication. You can't just talk to your [spouse] about this situation and [his/]her behavior, because your [spouse]will lie to you. Lying uninvents language. Being around a habitual liar tends to make people feel as if they're going crazy, because, in a sense, they are. Their perceptions of the world are skewed. They can't trust their own senses or their own judgment. Can you live with that?
I really like the line I bolded, especially. I lived through this in my second marriage, and with other situations as well. In fact, I was in love with a Nanthropologist who wrote professionally about the role of lying in culture...while lying to me nonstop, of course. (Never occurred to me that someone who studied it would also DO it so well! The death of trust really is the death of relationship, imo...)
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I must add this to the thread.I was working as a counselor at a spouse abuse clinic while I was being abused (and didn't know it.)
Ami
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from (you guessed it) a Cary Tennis letter writer on Salon.com. A man was writing about his marriage:
The problem with liars of all sorts is that conversation does not work with them. Words, when coming from a liar, do not function. They don't carry information. They don't facilitate communication. You can't just talk to your [spouse] about this situation and [his/]her behavior, because your [spouse]will lie to you. Lying uninvents language. Being around a habitual liar tends to make people feel as if they're going crazy, because, in a sense, they are. Their perceptions of the world are skewed. They can't trust their own senses or their own judgment. Can you live with that?
I really like the line I bolded, especially. I lived through this in my second marriage, and with other situations as well. In fact, I was in love with a Nanthropologist who wrote professionally about the role of lying in culture...while lying to me nonstop, of course. (Never occurred to me that someone who studied it would also DO it so well! The death of trust really is the death of relationship, imo...)
Hops
WOW Hops!
The death of trust really is the death of relationship Yes, my thoughts are that Trust is the Foundation on which to build, in any relationship.
Nanthropologist who wrote professionally about the role of lying in culture Must confess, have no knowledge of this!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Oh, yes I do!!! Laughing so much it hurts .... what a ninny!!! Cultural Anthropology and Social Anthropology.
Personally, something shuts down deep inside, when lies are realised.
Being around a habitual liar tends to make people feel as if they're going crazy, because, in a sense, they are. Their perceptions of the world are skewed. They can't trust their own senses or their own judgment.
Oh, definitely, Crazymaking at its finest hour.
Can you live with that? NO, never ever again.
Thank you very much for sharing this.
Love, Leah
Edit: They don't carry information. They don't facilitate communication. You can't just talk to your [spouse] about this situation and [his/]her behavior, because your [spouse]will lie to you. Lying uninvents language
Profound impact here --- many 'well meaning' folk have expressed to my exH that a communication skills course would solve all his problems ... my response with brief explanation was verbally slapped back at me ..... but just look at the above Exhibit A (A for absolutely not). Well meaning, but in effect, enabling behaviour to continue, without accountability and responsibilty, is harmful, to oneself, and to others. Not helpful at all.
Futile grabbing at a bandaid ... need to deal with the infection first.
"go to the root --- not the shoot"
says Leah :)
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Interesting, that this thread topic should crop up today, after reflecting upon today's postal mail - or lack of.
Last week, on my birthday, my father phones me, during the evening, to say that he had forgotten all about my birthday, followed by, "I thought you were born in December"
then,
"leave it with me, I will sort something out"
Next evening,
He phones and says, "Sorry I forgot your birthday, but don't worry, I will post you a card next week" :shock:
Today, Monday morning, no card arrived in the post.
Wonder what tomorrow will bring???
Wonder as to which day of next week he had planned???
Wonder .... Lie or Game ???
Love, Leah
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I am sorry, Leah. That must hurt. Ami
((((((((((((Leah)))))))))))))
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Oh, thanks Ami,
But, in all honesty, no, for the first time ever, no I truly didn't feel any hurt or pain.
Which made my birthday the most fantastic birthday ever.
You see, my mother always sabotaged every single birthday that she could. NC meant that this year she could not do that.
My father, well, that's my father.
Not within my power to change my parents, they are who they choose to be.
Serenity allows me to accept what I cannot change.
Be interesting to see if a card does arrive - or not.
Love, Leah
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Leah I understand. On my birthday my sisN sent me a card addressed to me and my family. Inside she wrote something like, I'm sending you some sunshine to brighten your day. It was a picture of HER grandaughter. Hello? She was erasing my birthday, erasing me I felt. Her birthday is a three month celebration, no kidding. :shock:
Sorry for the hurts.
I am thrilled your day was super. Happy Birthday Leah!! May this year you be surrounded by love and peace. oxox seasons
Hops,
Wow this is unbeliable and so sad it is true. How did you ever unwrap yourself from such twisted behavior?
you are the best ((hops)) seasons so luck to know you! :D
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Serenity allows me to accept what I cannot change.
That is lovely, Leah. To hear this familiar phrase and see its effect in the same post.
I believe you!
Seasons, I esssentially got (myself) hurt so badly that EVEN MY CODEPENDENCY wasn't powerful enough to make me want to ever live through anything like it again. I finally did reach the place (formerly an abstraction) where I realized that alone is better than with a dashing N.
I've made further mistakes with men, but I've also make enormous progress. Been alone for about 3 years since the last relationship. Would like another, but am feeling pretty take-it-or-leave-it, which is a great place for me. As I ease into wanting to date again, I feel much better equipped to respond to red flags. (Just turned down an attractive fellow...reconsidered a second date because I just listened to my intuition for a change. I decided that rather than wait and WONDER if he might be an N, when for various reasons I wasn't liking the exchange, just move on. It felt so good.)
Your sister is a piece of work. I think out-classing that sort of stuff is the only way to go. And never let their gibes paralyse your voice. So if someone says something sarcastic, just a sincere (dredge it up from somewhere) Well, this is a beautiful day, and Happy Thanksgiving! leaves the stupidity in the lap of the taunter/s. All day long, whether someone's snide or mocking or whatever, you could just enact your policy--no reponse at all to negatives, and a pleasant remark when you feel like making one.
Or don't go!
hugs
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I must add this to the thread.I was working as a counselor at a spouse abuse clinic while I was being abused (and didn't know it.)
Ami
Hi Ami,
Interested, hope you don't mind my asking, but when you were a Counselor for the spouse abuse, did they give you any training, either an in-house internal training course, or external based training?
Presumably, in a group setting, and also, in a one-to-one setting 'practice' setting also.
Before you commenced with the Counselling.
Love, Leah
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY LEAH!!!HAVE A WONDERFUL YEAR!!! Enjoy every minute that you can- don't let anyone take that from you! We love you here and want you to be happy!
Hoppy,this thread speaks to exactly the crux of the Bagworm problem. Lies, not paying bils ( a form of lies and betrayal.), abuse. Ns do not think that they are subject to strictures that the little people are, like the TRUTH!
As for the effect on culture, etc., Nanthropologist or no, it is interesting that the jackal chose to study lies! I love that you are now taking your time and throwing out the losers that "smell bad" before you get too attached, like rotten eggs or bad clams! Gives me time to finish stiching that wedding gown and trousseau for you as well.
Love,
Changing
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Hops,
I can feel your freedom from bondage. :)
Seasons, I esssentially got (myself) hurt so badly that EVEN MY CODEPENDENCY wasn't powerful enough to make me want to ever live through anything like it again. I finally did reach the place (formerly an abstraction) where I realized that alone is better than with a dashing N.[/b]
I decided that rather than wait and WONDER if he might be an N, when for various reasons I wasn't liking the exchange, just move on. It felt so good.)
Wonderful Hops, you are so wise.
I wanted to ask you if it's o.k. How and where are you with your Bully N Brother? NC? Does he seek you out? When I read Bully next to N it was a huge trigger. I find them to be the most painful and find myself paralized by their ruthlessness. kwim? ((seasons))
Your sister is a piece of work. I think out-classing that sort of stuff is the only way to go.
I love that way of thinking and reacting.
much love seasons
That is huge! I am so happy you have made such unbeliable strides through it all with such grace and dignity.
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And never let their gibes paralyse your voice. So if someone says something sarcastic, just a sincere (dredge it up from somewhere) Well, this is a beautiful day, and Happy Thanksgiving! leaves the stupidity in the lap of the taunter/s. All day long, whether someone's snide or mocking or whatever, you could just enact your policy--no reponse at all to negatives, and a pleasant remark when you feel like making one.
Or don't go!
hugs
Hops
I love this advice, Hops.
I'm not sure I can rise up and embrace it, just yet, but..... I definately have my voice back and that will have to be enough for now, lol.
Interesting to read about you just saying NO to a second date, instead of flip flopping about red flags and giving the benefit of the doubt to him, instead of yourself.
I loved reading that you chose you: )
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Why thank you, dears! :oops:
I am completely tickled that you see my progress in the Ndate arena.
(I'm averaging about one date a year, so this may be slow...) :lol:
Hi Seasons,
My Nbully brother is a menacing figure to me (he had invaded my computer and lied to me a year or two ago, so I'm always on guard when he's around, though we've "made peace" on the surface). After he was here I slept badly and had one significant nightmare in which he'd walked into my bathroom, bold as brass, and cut a hole in the wall to install some sort of electronic device that would allow him to read every keystroke I made on my laptop when I was relaxing on the other side of the wall on my bed!!! Fitting. (Nasty feeling of violation, his entitlement...)
When he comes I'm so uneasy I take a totebag of papers to my car and hide or take away my laptop. I don't think I'll ever fully trust him again.
This time, he came unannounced which I find unsettling, so I did speak to him and ask that he alert me that he's coming. He lied about that too. When I asked, why didn't you let me know? He said, oh, I didn't know I'd be able to come, but my schedule changed. So I said, yes, but you have a cell phone. DUH. The arrogance makes them skip over common logic. Then I just said, I know you want to see Mom and of course you're welcome, but since I'm another adult who lives here too, I'd just like a heads-up as a courtesy. He said, oh the reason I don't tell you I'm coming is that I don't want anyone to go to any trouble. Again BS. I stuck to my request and he finally said, okay, I promise I'll call first.
Then I got an email suggesting various "safety hazards" around the house (well, one was legit...I'd let the smoke alarm batteries go). I appreciate that he's pointing out such concerns but can't help feeling resentful. So I wrote him back a half-assertive, half-defenisve email pointing out that Mom is very well taken care of, and how I appreciated his concern but he can rest easy and take care of his own family, she's doing fine. Then I described the roaring success of her birthday party and wished him well. Grrrr. Not the MOST mature response, but he does push those buttons. Perhaps if he EVER said, what a good job you're doing and how much I appreciate your being here for Mom...I could accept other questions/interrogations/surprise "inspection" visits more easily.
Bleccchhh. I do not look forward to our "co-executor" experience once Mom's gone.
Hopefully, he won't reappear until spring. Feels good he's gone, and I did get good sleep last night. :)
love,
Hops
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Dear Leah,
When I was getting my Masters ,I was doing an internship at a clinic for spouse abuse. So, I was not alone as a single couselor. I worked in a group counseling setting with the head of the counseling center.
I worked in with a group of men mandated by the Court to attend counseling. I was dumb struck at these men. They would "beat" the woman up for giving them a dinner that they didn't like . I saw very little contrition.In fact,I can only remember one guy who seemed to have genuine contrition.
That is why I thought my H was good---compared to them-------bleh. Ami
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Thanks, Ami, for explaining.
Love, Leah
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Perhaps if he EVER said, what a good job you're doing and how much I appreciate your being here for Mom...I could accept other questions/interrogations/surprise "inspection" visits more easily.
Hops I understand completely, as I was a caregiver also I remember the pain of being picked apart, not appreciated ( I didn't want glory just given a bit of human dignity. kwim?)
Mom is very well taken care of
Yes, because of you. oxox
((Can I extend a human voice of acknowledgement for all you are and have given. Thank you Hops for taking care of Mom.))
I'm so sorry your privacy was so violated. My heart really feels for the pain you must of felt/feeling.
My Nbully brother is a menacing figure to me (he had invaded my computer and lied to me a year or two ago, so I'm always on guard when he's around, though we've "made peace" on the surface). After he was here I slept badly and had one significant nightmare in which he'd walked into my bathroom, bold as brass, and cut a hole in the wall to install some sort of electronic device that would allow him to read every keystroke I made on my laptop when I was relaxing on the other side of the wall on my bed!!! Fitting. (Nasty feeling of violation, his entitlement...)
Yuck, as much as I miss my parents I am free of my Big Bully Brother. Sometimes I wonder why I am completely off his radar now I remember all that he brings after reading your reply, thank you for that.
Hops, I am so proud of the way you handled yourself with his unexpected visit. Rude, no excuse and his words were all filled with BS~ you saw that, new better and did not cave. He should call you. I hope he follows through I heard you very clearly on that subject. You deserve at least that my friend.
Again BS. I stuck to my request and he finally said, okay, I promise I'll call first.
Way to go Hops 8)
When he comes I'm so uneasy I take a totebag of papers to my car and hide or take away my laptop. I don't think I'll ever fully trust him again.
That sounds like a great plan to be safe and protected. Hops can protect herself and does so wisely. :)
You have such a great balance. Thank you so much for sharing such a personal story. I take away so much, with a grateful heart.
Sweet Dreams Hops~ love seasons
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Thank you, ((((((((((((((((Seasons))))))))))))))))
I got an email from him today acknowledging that "perfection is a destination, not a marker" or something.
I re-read what I'd sent him and it wasn't really snarky at all.
He acknowledged that he'd called Mom and Dorothy and they both were pleased with the party.
(My family always plays the "I guess it's true because someone ELSE said so" thing -- he learned that from Mom.)
I frankly don't care if he's grateful or not. But overt INgratitude in my face plus space invasion I won't accept.
Ah well. I think he's going to be a while before he appears again, so I'll let it go for now.
The dream amazed me.
love
Hops
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Your sister is a piece of work. I think out-classing that sort of stuff is the only way to go. And never let their gibes paralyse your voice. So if someone says something sarcastic, just a sincere (dredge it up from somewhere) Well, this is a beautiful day, and Happy Thanksgiving! leaves the stupidity in the lap of the taunter/s. All day long, whether someone's snide or mocking or whatever, you could just enact your policy--no reponse at all to negatives, and a pleasant remark when you feel like making one.
Dear Hops,
Thank you, I am taking on board your wise advice, and shall put it into practice, with one scenario in particular.
Once a month, without fail, an unavoidable interaction with a lady, who will floor me, maybe just one sentence, and throw me off balance, leaving, my tummy is all of a flutter, as I drive away home.
Love, Leah
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HI Hops and all,
Hope you all are doing well. Not on here as often as I would like but very busy reading and writing papers.
Yep, the lying thing. For me there can be no more trust after that. I have had my share of N liars and know how crazymaking that sort of stuff is. Thankfully I am wellout of it at this stage. For me when trust is broken it is the end. I too decided that alone was better than smart assed clever N and it is. Still not in a place where I would consider dating but happy being alone.
Just dip in and out now and then but often think of you all. Coming up to my 1st anniversary of being Nfree........whew!
take care
axa
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Hello Axa,
Congratulations on your 1st Anniversary! :)
Wishing you every happiness on the road ahead.
Love, Leah
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Oh Axa...good to hear you.
And that's something -- your anniversary of freedom -- to TRULY feel deep thanksgiving about.
Please dip in again when you can.
I miss you.
No lie.
Hops
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I have been seventeen 17 diecisiete years alone. Only dated four or five guys in all this time. All of them were Ns. Never more than four or five dates.
Talking about sisters I have not seen my sister in eleven years. My brother in four years. I see my mother once a year. I am planning not to see her next year.
I really miss not having a family, but I do not miss my family.
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I really miss not having a family, but I do not miss my family.
Me too, Lupita
Love,
Leah
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Hoppy-
A prophet in her own land is... invaded by Ns!!!!OOOH, of all people, you should be treated with decency and decorum, even reverence. Your brand of thought and action is sorely needed on this planet. ((((( Dear Hoppy)))))
Start getting copies of all papers and such together regarding your future coexecutor duties- I suspect B is doing that now. Get a game plan toether now, so you won't be blindsided by grief. Get some free consultations from probate lawyers now - you don't want to do this during the grief process. Find a lawyer you like, and become extremely informed, Hoppy. Read everything in the library and web on the subject I know that you know this, and are most likely doing this already, but consider this a gentle nudge!!!! B is telling you with his relatively mild (compared to later) violations what you will be in for. Be forewarned and forearmed!!!! Then he won't know what hit him, and will have to behave!!!
Love and Happy Thanksgiving to our Wise Woman from a Very Grateful Changing
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Thanks for noticing that, Changing.
I have my mother's will, my POA and Durable Medical POA for her, and her accounts (there's little cash).
I know what she owes. $9K on an overpaid pension, and the mortgage, which I'll assume.
There are 2 small investment accts (one for my brother DOD, one in her name and mine), one short list of a few sentimental things and which of us she would like to have them.
That's it.
All I worry about is any challenge to my ownership of the house, which she is leaving to me. It seems straightforward in her will.
My brother gets the contents (except for the piano and her ring). So we'll need to have an estate sale. It's not elaborate. Furnishings, a few pieces of art, silver and china, books. That's about it. But that's his share and I want to be sure he gets it.
If you know of any particular list or workbook for upcoming Co-Executorship, let me know AT YOUR LEISURE.
love and thanks,
Hops
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Interesting, that this thread topic should crop up today, after reflecting upon today's postal mail - or lack of.
Last week, on my birthday, my father phones me, during the evening, to say that he had forgotten all about my birthday, followed by, "I thought you were born in December"
then,
"leave it with me, I will sort something out"
Next evening,
He phones and says, "Sorry I forgot your birthday, but don't worry, I will post you a card next week" :shock:
Today, Monday morning, no card arrived in the post.
Wonder what tomorrow will bring???
Wonder as to which day of next week he had planned???
Wonder .... Lie or Game ???
Love, Leah
:) well here we are, it's Friday, at the end of his "next week"
the post has been delivered ...... still no sign of a card!
no surprise, because, I know the Game.
Thankful, that I can smile about it.
Love, Leah