Great Lines About Lying

[Hopalong]

from (you guessed it) a Cary Tennis letter writer on Salon.com. A man was writing about his marriage:

The problem with liars of all sorts is that conversation does not work with them. Words, when coming from a liar, do not function. They don't carry information. They don't facilitate communication. You can't just talk to your [spouse] about this situation and [his/]her behavior, because your [spouse]will lie to you. Lying uninvents language. Being around a habitual liar tends to make people feel as if they're going crazy, because, in a sense, they are. Their perceptions of the world are skewed. They can't trust their own senses or their own judgment. Can you live with that?

I really like the line I bolded, especially. I lived through this in my second marriage, and with other situations as well. In fact, I was in love with a Nanthropologist who wrote professionally about the role of lying in culture...while lying to me nonstop, of course. (Never occurred to me that someone who studied it would also DO it so well! The death of trust really is the death of relationship, imo...)

Hops

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
  I must add this to the thread.I was working as a counselor at a spouse abuse clinic while I was being abused (and didn't know it.)
                 Ami

[Leah]

from (you guessed it) a Cary Tennis letter writer on Salon.com. A man was writing about his marriage:

The problem with liars of all sorts is that conversation does not work with them. Words, when coming from a liar, do not function. They don't carry information. They don't facilitate communication. You can't just talk to your [spouse] about this situation and [his/]her behavior, because your [spouse]will lie to you. Lying uninvents language. Being around a habitual liar tends to make people feel as if they're going crazy, because, in a sense, they are. Their perceptions of the world are skewed. They can't trust their own senses or their own judgment. Can you live with that?

I really like the line I bolded, especially. I lived through this in my second marriage, and with other situations as well. In fact, I was in love with a Nanthropologist who wrote professionally about the role of lying in culture...while lying to me nonstop, of course. (Never occurred to me that someone who studied it would also DO it so well! The death of trust really is the death of relationship, imo...)

Hops

WOW Hops!

The death of trust really is the death of relationship   Yes, my thoughts are that Trust is the Foundation on which to build, in any relationship.


Nanthropologist who wrote professionally about the role of lying in culture  Must confess, have no knowledge of this!!     

    Oh, yes I do!!!  Laughing so much it hurts .... what a ninny!!!   Cultural Anthropology and Social Anthropology.



Personally, something shuts down deep inside, when lies are realised.

Being around a habitual liar tends to make people feel as if they're going crazy, because, in a sense, they are. Their perceptions of the world are skewed. They can't trust their own senses or their own judgment.

Oh, definitely, Crazymaking at its finest hour.

Can you live with that? NO, never ever again.

Thank you very much for sharing this.

Love, Leah


Edit: They don't carry information. They don't facilitate communication. You can't just talk to your [spouse] about this situation and [his/]her behavior, because your [spouse]will lie to you. Lying uninvents language

Profound impact here --- many 'well meaning' folk have expressed to my exH that a communication skills course would solve all his problems ... my response with brief explanation was verbally slapped back at me ..... but just look at the above Exhibit A (A for absolutely not).  Well meaning, but in effect, enabling behaviour to continue, without accountability and responsibilty, is harmful, to oneself, and to others.  Not helpful at all.

Futile grabbing at a bandaid ... need to deal with the infection first.

"go to the root --- not the shoot"

says Leah 

[Leah]

Interesting, that this thread topic should crop up today, after reflecting upon today's postal mail - or lack of.

Last week, on my birthday, my father phones me, during the evening, to say that he had forgotten all about my birthday, followed by, "I thought you were born in December"

then,

"leave it with me, I will sort something out"

Next evening,

He phones and says, "Sorry I forgot your birthday, but don't worry, I will post you a card next week" 

Today, Monday morning, no card arrived in the post.

Wonder what tomorrow will bring???

Wonder as to which day of next week he had planned???

Wonder .... Lie or Game ???

Love, Leah

[Ami]

I am sorry, Leah. That must hurt.                            Ami
  ((((((((((((Leah)))))))))))))

[Leah]

Oh, thanks Ami,

But, in all honesty, no, for the first time ever, no I truly didn't feel any hurt or pain.

Which made my birthday the most fantastic birthday ever.

You see, my mother always sabotaged every single birthday that she could.  NC meant that this year she could not do that. 

My father, well, that's my father.

Not within my power to change my parents, they are who they choose to be.

Serenity allows me to accept what I cannot change.

Be interesting to see if a card does arrive - or not.

Love, Leah

[seasons]

Leah I understand. On my birthday my sisN sent me a card addressed to me and my family. Inside she wrote something like, I'm sending you some sunshine to brighten your day. It was a picture of HER grandaughter. Hello? She was erasing my birthday, erasing me I felt. Her birthday is a three month celebration, no kidding.

Sorry for the hurts.
 I am thrilled your day was super.  Happy Birthday Leah!! May this year you be surrounded by love and peace. oxox seasons

Hops,
Wow this is unbeliable and so sad it is true. How did you ever unwrap yourself from such twisted behavior?
you are the best ((hops)) seasons so luck to know you!

[Hopalong]

Serenity allows me to accept what I cannot change.

That is lovely, Leah. To hear this familiar phrase and see its effect in the same post.
I believe you!

Seasons, I esssentially got (myself) hurt so badly that EVEN MY CODEPENDENCY wasn't powerful enough to make me want to ever live through anything like it again. I finally did reach the place (formerly an abstraction) where I realized that alone is better than with a dashing N.

I've made further mistakes with men, but I've also make enormous progress. Been alone for about 3 years since the last relationship. Would like another, but am feeling pretty take-it-or-leave-it, which is a great place for me. As I ease into wanting to date again, I feel much better equipped to respond to red flags. (Just turned down an attractive fellow...reconsidered a second date because I just listened to my intuition for a change. I decided that rather than wait and WONDER if he might be an N, when for various reasons I wasn't liking the exchange, just move on. It felt so good.)

Your sister is a piece of work. I think out-classing that sort of stuff is the only way to go. And never let their gibes paralyse your voice. So if someone says something sarcastic, just a sincere (dredge it up from somewhere) Well, this is a beautiful day, and Happy Thanksgiving! leaves the stupidity in the lap of the taunter/s. All day long, whether someone's snide or mocking or whatever, you could just enact your policy--no reponse at all to negatives, and a pleasant remark when you feel like making one.

Or don't go!

hugs
Hops

[Leah]

Dear Hops,
  I must add this to the thread.I was working as a counselor at a spouse abuse clinic while I was being abused (and didn't know it.)
                 Ami

Hi Ami,

Interested, hope you don't mind my asking, but when you were a Counselor for the spouse abuse, did they give you any training, either an in-house internal training course, or external based training? 

Presumably, in a group setting, and also, in a one-to-one setting 'practice' setting also.

Before you commenced with the Counselling.

Love, Leah

[changing]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY LEAH!!!HAVE A WONDERFUL YEAR!!! Enjoy every minute that you can- don't let anyone take that from you! We love you here and want you to be happy!

Hoppy,this thread speaks to exactly the crux of the Bagworm problem. Lies, not paying bils ( a form of lies and betrayal.), abuse. Ns do not think that they are subject to strictures that the little people are, like the TRUTH!
As for the effect on culture, etc., Nanthropologist or no, it is interesting that the jackal chose to study lies! I love that you are now taking your time and throwing out the losers that "smell bad" before you get too attached, like rotten eggs or bad clams! Gives me time to finish stiching that wedding gown and trousseau for you as well.

Love,

Changing

[seasons]

Hops,

I can feel your freedom from bondage. 

Seasons, I esssentially got (myself) hurt so badly that EVEN MY CODEPENDENCY wasn't powerful enough to make me want to ever live through anything like it again. I finally did reach the place (formerly an abstraction) where I realized that alone is better than with a dashing N.[/b]

I decided that rather than wait and WONDER if he might be an N, when for various reasons I wasn't liking the exchange, just move on. It felt so good.)

Wonderful Hops, you are so wise.

I wanted to ask you if it's o.k. How and where are you with your Bully N Brother? NC? Does he seek you out? When I read Bully next to N it was a huge trigger. I find them to be the most painful and find myself paralized by their ruthlessness. kwim? ((seasons))

Your sister is a piece of work. I think out-classing that sort of stuff is the only way to go.

I love that way of thinking and reacting.

much love seasons







That is huge! I  am so happy you have made such unbeliable strides through it all with such grace and dignity.

[lighter]

And never let their gibes paralyse your voice. So if someone says something sarcastic, just a sincere (dredge it up from somewhere) Well, this is a beautiful day, and Happy Thanksgiving! leaves the stupidity in the lap of the taunter/s. All day long, whether someone's snide or mocking or whatever, you could just enact your policy--no reponse at all to negatives, and a pleasant remark when you feel like making one.

Or don't go!

hugs
Hops

I love this advice, Hops. 

I'm not sure I can rise up and embrace it, just yet, but..... I definately have my voice back and that will have to be enough for now, lol. 

Interesting to read about you just saying NO to a second date, instead of flip flopping about red flags and giving the benefit of the doubt to him, instead of yourself. 

I loved reading that you chose you: )

[Hopalong]

Why thank you, dears! 
I am completely tickled that you see my progress in the Ndate arena.
(I'm averaging about one date a year, so this may be slow...) 

Hi Seasons,
My Nbully brother is a menacing figure to me (he had invaded my computer and lied to me a year or two ago, so I'm always on guard when he's around, though we've "made peace" on the surface). After he was here I slept badly and had one significant nightmare in which he'd walked into my bathroom, bold as brass, and cut a hole in the wall to install some sort of electronic device that would allow him to read every keystroke I made on my laptop when I was relaxing on the other side of the wall on my bed!!! Fitting. (Nasty feeling of violation, his entitlement...)

When he comes I'm so uneasy I take a totebag of papers to my car and hide or take away my laptop. I don't think I'll ever fully trust him again.

This time, he came unannounced which I find unsettling, so I did speak to him and ask that he alert me that he's coming. He lied about that too. When I asked, why didn't you let me know? He said, oh, I didn't know I'd be able to come, but my schedule changed. So I said, yes, but you have a cell phone. DUH. The arrogance makes them skip over common logic. Then I just said, I know you want to see Mom and of course you're welcome, but since I'm another adult who lives here too, I'd just like a heads-up as a courtesy. He said, oh the reason I don't tell you I'm coming is that I don't want anyone to go to any trouble. Again BS. I stuck to my request and he finally said, okay, I promise I'll call first.

Then I got an email suggesting various "safety hazards" around the house (well, one was legit...I'd let the smoke alarm batteries go). I appreciate that he's pointing out such concerns but can't help feeling resentful. So I wrote him back a half-assertive, half-defenisve email pointing out that Mom is very well taken care of, and how I appreciated his concern but he can rest easy and take care of his own family, she's doing fine. Then I described the roaring success of her birthday party and wished him well. Grrrr. Not the MOST mature response, but he does push those buttons. Perhaps if he EVER said, what a good job you're doing and how much I appreciate your being here for Mom...I could accept other questions/interrogations/surprise "inspection" visits more easily.

Bleccchhh. I do not look forward to our "co-executor" experience once Mom's gone.

Hopefully, he won't reappear until spring. Feels good he's gone, and I did get good sleep last night. 

love,
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Leah,
  When I was getting my Masters ,I was doing an internship at a clinic for spouse abuse. So, I was not alone as a single couselor. I worked in a group counseling setting with the head of the counseling center.
   I worked in with a group of men mandated by the Court to attend counseling. I was dumb struck at these men. They would "beat" the woman up for giving them a dinner that they didn't like . I saw very little contrition.In fact,I can only remember one guy who seemed to have genuine contrition.
 That is why I thought my H was good---compared to them-------bleh.                    Ami

[Leah]

Thanks, Ami, for explaining.

Love, Leah