Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Iphi on November 27, 2007, 03:39:42 PM
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On the topic that sunblue has started about how holidays really bring the Ns out of the woodwork, we started straying off into the subject of how incredibly chaotic and crazymaking it is to travel with an N, or maybe really a larger topic of Ns and the things they do to sabotage.
A number of the things lighter described her sister doing really blew me away. Her sister gave lighter's passport to a stranger in a crowded airport. :shock:
And she will do things directly after being warned not to do the thing. She will do the opposite of the obvious best way to do something - doing things the obvious (no, really obvious) worst way.
I've been meaning for a long time to start a topic about N's and the sabotage thing. In my FOO, the sabotage was always there like atmosphere, but it was never, never addressed. Each event just happened and there was no reflection, no learning, no (ho ho ho) frank discussion and the next time there was no better plan, no different way.
The sabotage put me in danger many times, of various kinds, but it also put the N in danger.
Do people know what I am talking about right off the bat? I will tell some stories later, but it will take a while to type.
The current of sabotage was one of the most darkly crazy feeling aspects of life with my N-dad.
It's something that I have never been able to wrap my head all the way around. It took ages and ages just to trace all the different events and happenings and say - this is sabotage. Much less figure out why.
I really look forward to hearing others experience and thoughts on this.
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Dear Iphi,
Could you explain more specifically what you mean. Maybe,I am being dense ,but I can't get a feel for your question. Thanks,Iphi Ami
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Hoooo boy.
Simple classic example. Explaining sincerely and a mite desperately that I have a sugar addiction and really need to not have sweets left out on the counter where I have to look at them every time I go for water.
You guessed it. For years, "trails" of sweets. Baked goods arrayed sweetly on a napkin. Over and over and over.
ARRRRGHGGHGHGHGHGHHH!
Great topic, Ihpi. Thank you!
love
Hops
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Sabotage of the success of losing some weight with the appearance of irresistible cream cakes or chocolate!
Pleasure in seeing the weight return!
"Ever Increasing Circle" of waist!! :(
Looking back, can see how and why that was worked.
Love, Leah
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I will say this...... we're identical twins (in case anyone missed that) which bolsters my case with Leah that people are born a certain way, with certain traits that can't be altered.
Dear Lighter,
Are you referring to my post on 'What and Why? thread ?
As I have not said that certain traits can't be altered, merely, that I am gratefully thankful, to have been the first born, after all.
We all of us, have the will to choose, to a certain degree, sadly, some would seem to have have no conscience, which may well be the differing factor.
Love, Leah
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SAbotage, I do understand it but was always afraid to deal with it and thus it got away until the next time. Each time you remember, but it diminishes with time and you think you've made a big deal of somethning. You can't ever do anything right even if you follow it to the letter of the law, the law changes.
I planned a wonderful vacation with N, he was too busy and couldn't participate in the planning even though he didn't work. Had everything to a T, until the last minute when he finally had time to check out the hotel and found out there was some kind of germ epidemic and everyone was getting ill. I still don't know if that was true, but of course we changed hotels. This through a whole wrench in the vacation that turned into a disaster, therin lies the sabotage( he really didin't want to go anyway and just proved his point) ........many more examples
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I think that my H tried to push away friends who would make me stronger by acting "obnoxious" when they would call(or come over).
People were afraid to call. They would ask me,"Is he going to be home?"
I guess that sabotage is a subconscious thing with people. I see that so much 'craziness" is just fear and shame.
I can see that with my M. She was just trying not to 'drown". She was pulling me under NOT to hurt me,,but to save herself from fear and shame.
I guess that sabotage would be the same thing. In fact,I look at all my crazy behaviors. I was trying to run from fear and shame too-bleh Ami
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Dear Ami,
Can so identify with the type of 'sabotage' you refer to.
My now exH would not communicate with a colleague from work who had dropped in for a coffee -- just same in his armchair, saying zilch ---- the atmosphere was tense, with me trying to make up for the void he created. Ignorance, pure and simply, but, with a purpose and a plan. Next day, at work, all eyes of Leah, and my colleague kept her distance from that day on.
He did not like my having friends at work, oh, he loved for me to go out to work, yes, but not to enjoy it.
My mother, upon reflection, created problems with my friends, and they too would not like to call, all with the exception of one, who my mother ensnared in her Nwebment!! Because this friend was the daughter of her friend, and it is a very long painful story.
Sabotage for the purpose of control and manipulation --- and isolation.
Love, Leah
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Dear Leah
It is b/c the "victim" cannot get too 'smart" or they won't be the victim ,anymore---bleh Ami
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Sabotage is an everyday weapon for Ns I think. It's always extremely childish, which makes it easy to dismiss coming from someone you think is an adult, IOW it has to be some misunderstanding or fluke. Until it happens again and again and again. That's been my story with the male Ns I've known who have seemed to view me as a rival, a competitor of some sort, who has to be messed with or I will beat them at something. There's a contest going on that I'm not even aware of.
Bill
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Sabotage is an everyday weapon for Ns I think. It's always extremely childish, which makes it easy to dismiss coming from someone you think is an adult, IOW it has to be some misunderstanding or fluke. Until it happens again and again and again. That's been my story with the male Ns I've known who have seemed to view me as a rival, a competitor of some sort, who has to be messed with or I will beat them at something. There's a contest going on that I'm not even aware of.
Bill
Bill,
Sabotage carried out to 'knock you out of the frame" i.e. remove the competition
when someone feels put out by the 'new kid on the block' getting all the attention.
Seen that happen in the workplace and elsewhere, all in all, it's absolutely dreadful.
Agree with you, extremely childish -- immaturity at its worst!
Leah
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This is a very painful topic for me. As a young child I can remember being so hurt by my FOO’s acts of sabotage. And there were many, many, many.
My brother would sabotage me with my friends – he would out and out lie about me. I can remember people coming up to me and telling me about these rumors circulating through school about me that he started – always made me wonder what I didn’t hear.
I never could understand why he hated me so much (other than being born).
My mother would lie about me to my father so he would rage at me instead of her – my brother did the same thing.
If I needed something for school, she would deliberately buy the wrong thing.
She made me cut my hair very, very short. Wear boys clothes, and mock me incessantly.
I never could understand why she hated me so much.
One year my parents claimed they didn’t have enough to buy me a coat – of course, they could afford coats for my siblings, and their cigarettes and alcohol, but they couldn’t buy me a coat.
One year they bought new down comforters for everyone in the family except me. I was left with a ratty old blanket that had definitely seen better days.
If there was left overs for dinner and I was still hungry, I was only allowed to have the food if my brother didn’t want it – he always wanted it.
When I was a little girl, I so badly wanted a canopy bed. My M refused to get me one. My sister got one. Will never forget the smirk on my mother’s face when she did this.
If I asked her not to let my cat outside – she would let my cat outside.
So many acts of sabotage of some sort - so many seemingly minor on the surface – but the totality of them are devastating.
Sadly – I learned very well. I learned that the only way to survive in that house was to sabotage myself.
Good news is I am so done with that!
Peace
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But Leah, this is someone who pretends to like you and professes their friendship towards you in many ways. They pretend they only have your interests at heart while all they want to do is damage you. This isn't workplace rivalry, it's the devil pretending to be your buddy.
Bill
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Sabotage is an everyday weapon for Ns I think. It's always extremely childish, which makes it easy to dismiss coming from someone you think is an adult, IOW it has to be some misunderstanding or fluke. Until it happens again and again and again. That's been my story with the male Ns I've known who have seemed to view me as a rival, a competitor of some sort, who has to be messed with or I will beat them at something. There's a contest going on that I'm not even aware of.
Bill
Bill,
Sabotage carried out to 'knock you out of the frame" i.e. remove the competition
when someone feels put out by the 'new kid on the block' getting all the attention.
Seen that happen in the workplace and elsewhere, all in all, it's absolutely dreadful.
Agree with you, extremely childish -- immaturity at its worst!
Leah
Posted by: wiltay
But Leah, this is someone who pretends to like you and professes their friendship towards you in many ways. They pretend they only have your interests at heart while all they want to do is damage.
Yes, Bill, and it does happen in the workplace too, and as i said, elsewhere -- in FOO and friends and relationships.
BullyOnline mentions every aspect of human interactive situations where N's and P's and such, all behave in this way.
Sad, but oh, so very true.
Leah
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Oh, (((( Peace ))))
No wonder I was a trigger to you.
Your mother and mine must be sisters!
Except that my father made me wear boys shoes.
Never had a pretty pair of shoes, not that it mattered, because I never had any pretty dresses, only clothes suitable for working in.
Boys coat for school too.
((((((( Peace )))))))
Love & Hugs,
Leah
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Oh, Peace. What loads of crap you had to grow up with! They hated you because you because you were better than they were and they knew it. (You have always known it too). What was devastating was their hate, from people you felt love for. It spins your head around.
Bill
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Dear Leah -
Reading your story was hauntingly familiar; so many similarities.
I did not get a chance to tell you how sorry I was about your doll. (I am sorry for bringing this up if it is too painful - please let me know and I will delete this.) What they did really struck me as pure evil. I see my little 4-year-old with her stuffed animals and they are her friends, and a source of comfort to her. I can only imagine how much comfort you found in your doll especially given the environment you were raised in. And to have her so cruelly taken away. on edit: I feel like I didn't adequately express how much my heart just breaks for you and your friend. I am so sad :cry:
I have gotten over so much of what was done to me, but this is one area where I haven't been able to get past the pain. It still hurts, a lot.
I just don't understand people like these.
Thank you for the hugs
(((((Leah)))))))
Much love,
Peace
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Thank you Bill,
You are right:
What was devastating was their hate, from people you felt love for. It spins your head around.
I never could understand their hate. I still don't.
((((((((Bill Thank You))))))))))
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Sabotage is an everyday weapon for Ns I think. It's always extremely childish, which makes it easy to dismiss coming from someone you think is an adult, IOW it has to be some misunderstanding or fluke. Until it happens again and again and again. That's been my story with the male Ns I've known who have seemed to view me as a rival, a competitor of some sort, who has to be messed with or I will beat them at something. There's a contest going on that I'm not even aware of.
Bill
I hole heartily agree: sabotage is an everyday thing with N's. My two church N friends (including N saint therapist) loved to throw parties and gatherings that were centered around them or some special date for them. The two would go to great lengths to plan every detail and inform people well in advance. Normally their gatherings were large, festive and fun.
Once, Church N and Saint Therapist N decided to throw a party for me as I was being confirmed into my faith. I thought "how nice of them!" I was flattered and surprised. But at the same time I thought how strange that they decide to throw the party a week before the date; it turns out it was too late for most people to attend because they already had plans. I asked them to cancel because I felt silly, most of my friends and could not attend on such short notice. They said not to worry that they still wanted to have the celebration. Only about 3 people in our prayer group or parish could make it on such short notice. I felt embarrassed at how few people actually showed up. The party was depressing if you can imagine a lot of food and only 6 people total, including me. Is was nothing like their normal parties and very little time or consideration went into the planning. I found it awkward. I don't think they actually thought...let's make sure this is embarrassing for Lise and make sure she knows that she is not important. No, I think they subconsciously sabotaged. I was honored at what did go into the party and grateful but something just did not feel right about the whole thing.
Lise
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Lise, you really have to wonder why they considered you such a threat that they would go to such lengths to do such childish things? I think it was simply a sadistic exercise of the power to hurt you to make up for the deficits in their own souls. This speaks to your value in their eyes, values which they can only pretend to, but which you are in flesh and blood. It's that old competition thing again, I think. (Except they can only win by cheating).
Bill
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Leah
Peace
:cry:
Hops
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Leah and Peace-
Oh those criminal nitwits! What you both suffered is unspeakable! How extraordinary that two of the nicest and most gentle souls on the planet went through so much that would break the spirit of a grown-up, long less a child. Yet somehow you retained your goodness and sense of right and wrong. (((((Leah and Peace)))))
Love,
Changing
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Dear Bean,
I always get insight from your posts.This was no exception. Love to you Ami
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Dear Bean,
Superb post and all 10 points resonate with my life experiences.
Thank you
Love, Leah
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Leah and Peace-
Oh those criminal nitwits! What you both suffered is unspeakable! How extraordinary that two of the nicest and most gentle souls on the planet went through so much that would break the spirit of a grown-up, long less a child. Yet somehow you retained your goodness and sense of right and wrong. (((((Leah and Peace)))))
Love,
Changing
((( Changing ))) and ((( Hops )))
and dear ((((( Peace ))))
Love & Hugs,
Leah
Sometimes, I wonder, did my parents, and all other parents who are just like my parents --- did they perpetrate evil against their child (children) because they could not bear the good that they saw in their child???
"Light and Dark clashing"
Can't seem to come up with any other explanation.
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Lise, you really have to wonder why they considered you such a threat that they would go to such lengths to do such childish things? I think it was simply a sadistic exercise of the power to hurt you to make up for the deficits in their own souls. This speaks to your value in their eyes, values which they can only pretend to, but which you are in flesh and blood. It's that old competition thing again, I think. (Except they can only win by cheating).
Bill
Hi Bill!
Nice to hear from you, I have missed our dialogues. I was kind of hoping that you would get angry with me again :wink:
How are you doing? Any N sabotage currently happening in your life?
I had a thought yesterday about this which you wrote, it reminded me of when Tanya's camp hired someone to whack Nancy on knee. If you can't beat with natural ability and talent then take the competition out, right?!?
You said:
"This speaks to your value in their eyes"
I happy that YOU can see me.
Lise
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(((((((((((((Leah, Bill, Hops, and Changing and to everyone))))))))))))))))))))
Thank you so much.
Leah - I don't know - part of me just screams why? Sometimes I suspect on my mother and brother's part it was envy. With my father - it was total self-centeredness. But, I just can't wrap my mind around it.
Bean, you said:
The horrible thing about working with a group of Ns (or even 1 N ringleader and his misguided lambs) is you have to anticipate the sabotage, which means you have to get into their heads often and try and think like they do...to try to anticipate their next move; that is if you want to survive.
Yep, yep, yep - I had to do this with my father. I had to learn to read him like a book, every slight nuance of expression. I have to say, this has helped me in the business world - I have learned to read people very well because I was taught from such an early age.
Peace
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Yep, yep, yep - I had to do this with my father. I had to learn to read him like a book, every slight nuance of expression. I have to say, this has helped me in the business world - I have learned to read people very well because I was taught from such an early age.
Peace
Peace
Likewise, and also, has helped me in the business world, much to the annoyance of FOO members!
Love, Leah
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I guess I'm lucky that I've been self-employed most of my life and have not been around 'office politics' to speak of. It's a major gap in my education though because I can be incredibly naive about people behavior in groups, esp Ns and I don't see (or believe!) what they're up to until it's too late. I get into group situations and I'm like the country rube visiting the big city. Bean, I am not very knowledgeable about most of these 'tricks' except for #4 Gossip (as sabotage). Randy was incredibly skilled at undermining others without people knowing he was doing it.
One thing I noticed later was that the people he undermined to me were always people I liked and expressed admiration for, i.e. the competition in HIS mind for his N supply. Very hard to describe how he did it. He would agree with me about them and then so delicately slide in this tiny little innuendo, so innocent and trivial sounding, but I would walk away from the conversation with the clear impulse to think less of this person. It's like he had smeared them with just a little bit of yuck behind their left ear and I would have to be kind of stupid not to see it. I DID see what he did however and I just shook it off, thinking that he's a good friend just trying to cover my back. WOW. A vacuum cleaner you can ride to the moon! How much??
I AM mad at you Lise! Didn't I tell you?? Grrrrrrrrrrrr.. There, do you feel better now? (I can see you fine when I'm not mad at you. (lol))
Bill
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Sabotage or just plain Psychopathy?
When N and I had the computer business, he said he had a job for me--through company $40/hr.
I had to take a website series for an hotel chain and move it from one host to another. It took me all week to set it up so that every page and image was there and that every link worked. 39½ hrs/ $1580.00
Now I knew he was thinking something when he saw what I earned and had to make a invoice to the head Office. He then says I ought to charge less. I said that he said it would be $40/hr so bill them.
We had arguments.
We were at one of the hotels where we had been invited for dinner on the house. he did some work first and I was left to wonder what to do. finally at dinnertime I went to the duining room and ordered some wine and they had some really delicious appetizers. finally N finds me in there and it didn't take long to bring up this subject again, and THIS time he says I ought not be paid at all. I was speechless at first, but then said I did what he asked me to do which was what the hotel chain had wanted.
He said, "Yes but you didn't know what you were doing and and I spent time with you and never charged". I disagreed as I could see him invoicing them and keeping the $$ for himself--yet all money had to go through me.
I got madder than Hell, eventually on this topic, and went to the front desk to order a Cab. He came out and told me not to, it didn't look good for him if I walk out on the dinner-------I spent $80.00 to get home and he was there. I asked the driver for a receipt for $40 but paid him the $80.00 plus a tip. (needed it too, at home)
Then, because I had signing authority and all web sites (7 hotels) were online and working, I wrote myself a cheques and banked it in my account. A few days later I told him and he went crazy. *I had stolen from him*. No way. We were partners and I was paid for my work (the very first after all the computers I built for him and he never paid me, never paid me for bookkeeping and everything else to keep the business running. )
When I left him he said I could NOT take my computer with me unless I paid him $1600.00.
I said 'Dream on buddy. I will buy my own', and did!
A few months later he told me that the hotel chain was fighting the invoice and he settled for $700.00, yet was still saying I owed him (the business) $1580.00
Somehow I think he just couldn't admit that I could do the job and do it right!
Izzy
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Well Izzy -
Tonight - I am leaning towards psychopathy!
He sounds like a doozy (putting it very mildly) - very well rid of him eh?
Peace
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Yes, finding Peace.
A real doozy, with all the N-isms and also the P-isms which include criminal activity.
When I left him we were still partners and I finally dissolved the business (took me 5 months) and all the government bills stopped coming to me. But until that dissolutioin, my bank accounts were fair game for the government. I was scared as heck!
Then I realized that he wouldn't even know to do what I was doing!
You know there is a lot about N traits in here, but if one takes N-ism further it becomes Psychopathy-- he was dealing in stolen computer parts, and pirated software..... and more things when he was much younger, so I found out after, like being 25, drunk, racing on the highway, wrong side of the road, hit a car and killed a 16 yr old girl. jailed 3 times! Lordy!
With me he trashed the house, trashed my car, and was forever trying to con me where $$$$ was concerned. I was onto him.
oh Life is a conundrum!
xx
Izzy
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Hello Izzy-
Sounds like you and Super-N SIL went through a full-fledged divorce!!!When did he stop fooling with you ( I want to see when Bagworm is going to go back into his bag!)?
Love,
Changing
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Ain't nobody messin' wid IZZZZZ!
(Look what happened to Larry!)
LARRY? :shock:
Yoicks, I've led a sheltered life.
Hops
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Hiya changing
The above stories are about the P I lived with. It was when I left him and had some therapy that I was told about N-ism.
He was/is a total jerk.
Now I have been talking about my N-SIL not long ago.....about the $55 thousand in loans.......That's when I realized my daughter and I had both been made crazy.
That was also when I realized a sister of mine is an N and that I was almost going overboard pointing out Ns 'cuz it was such a surprise to me.
and yes Hops
No one fools wid da Izzball ..............if she can help it!
Love to both of you
Izzy
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