Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on November 30, 2007, 11:46:51 AM
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I am so sorry to be like a dog with a bone on this topic.
I have made so much progress and feel much calmer inside.
I can let feelings of selfishness go. Before, they would plummet me into depression.(I really did not even KNOW what was giving me a depression,).
I can see "ugly" thoughts go by. However,I still feel uncomfortable with really seeing that your thoughts or feelings do not MAKE you bad".
It is simply a conditioning, like being brainwashed by a cult.
I see that my M really could not help the way that she thought. WHO would be so self rejecting if they had a choice.? I see that she did the best she could within her limitations. She gave me good things, too.
If anyone is sick of me bringing up the "same" topic again(in different guises),please just ignore my thread.I really would prefer that than someone saying,"Just get over it."
I am not trying to be purposely "dense". I am just trying to find that place of peace inside myself where I can be without guilt.
Thank you so much for all the help you always give . Love Ami
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Oh, Dear ((((( Ami ))))))
You just keep on talking it through as much or as little as your heart needs till you get to your destination.
What is it that are you struggling with first and foremost?
Love, Leah
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Dear Leah,
Thanks for asking ,so sweetly. With trepidation,I wrote this thread.I could hear people saying,"Get over it. We already told you the answers". I think that I 'know" all the answers.
It just takes time for them to sink in.
Leah, here is an example of how I feel like I am a "bad" person. I am starting to see how my H could not "help" his behavior patterns(in a way). His F was a bad N(worse than my M)
My H "thought" that if you provided financially, you could act any way that wanted. I came from a family where I "thought" that if you had material things , then you could not be considered "abused". So, we were a perfect fit(lol)
I have compassion for him. He really did do what he thought was right.I LET him abuse me. It was NOT my fault (in the sense that I could help it at the time). However, I LET him abuse me until I got strong enough. Then,I didn't let him, anymore.then, he stopped(basically)
He really didn't "know" how to act differently and I didn't either. Maybe this does not make sense when I put it so black and white like that,but I believe it.
So, this brings me up to why I think I am "bad". He is having heart problems. He has had different procedures. Now, he is asking the doctor to do another one,but the doctor doesn't want to.However,my H keeps telling me what to do when he dies.
Anyway, here is my problem. I feel "numb" inside about it. I act nicely.but in my feelings,I don't feel like I care. I think that I really do "care" b/c we have known each other for so long,but a part of me doesn't.
That is what I mean about feeling like I am a"bad" person. Ami
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SO, this brings me up to why I think I am "bad". He is having heart problems. He has had different procedures. Now, he is asking the doctor to do another one,but the doctor doesn't want to.However,my H keeps telling me what to do when he dies.
Anyway, here is my problem. I feel "numb" inside about it. I act nicely.but in my feelings,I don't feel like I care. I think that I really do "care" b/c we have known each other for so long,but a part of me doesn't.
That is what I mean about feeling like I am a"bad" person. Ami
Hi Ami,
Could the numbness be shock or a defense against your grief? If you were not a caring person you would not be questioning this?
((((AMI))))
Love,
Lise
P.S.
We all have selfish thoughts and self-centered desires, the best way that I have ever found to overcome selfishness is to spend time helping others (you do that) with absolutely no reward for self (very hard to practice -- N's can always spin an act of sacrifice and make it about them). Making sacrafices of time for others -- if our intentions are pure and we are spiritually fit then this this kind of selfless service can unhardwire the self-centered thinking that is really just our little child inside responding to our unmet emotional needs.
I was taught by a wise spiritual woman once to place God first, others second, and ourselves last in every situation of life.
Lise
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Hi Ami,
This is going to sound pretty stark after Lise's lovely answer, but the truth is I understand.
I love my mother but it's become an abstraction, rather than a feeling.
It's a decision and a moral choice.
I treat her with compassion and touch her gently.
But I minimize my time with her and am grateful to escape her when I can.
I dread her suffering because I dread anyone's suffering.
I comfort her all I can when she's ill.
But it's not with sobs, or because my heart is wrenched to see her so (although it will be...that happens to me every time she is suffering or in pain...as opposed to anticipating it, like your H).
When I think of her demise I am mildly curious about whether I will feel anything acute, and I am certain I will feel unspeakable (hmm...) relief, freedom. Maybe some fear. The Role will be gone. Maybe I'll grieve all over again for the mother I could not have, but I don't think so. Did that. Done. Glad.
For all the convolutions of my past, present and future feelings about her...I am convinced, deeply finally convinced, that I am a good person even though I don't feel anguish at the thought of her death. I'm pretty numb. I'm just worn out. Sick to the bone of caregiving, even though others have done more and harder.
We plumbed our relationship as deeply as it would go and I am not confused about whether I found the bottom. I did, so now I float in the level it is. And don't contribute much emotionally, other than detached compassion.
So I think it sounds pretty normal, to me, to feel little about your H even though you think you "should". Abusive people tend not to inspire long-term passionate devotion, though they may be cared for devotedly.
That help at all? Hope so.
xo
Hops
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Dear ((( Ami)))
I don't perceive you as being a 'bad' person.
For having the feeling of 'numb' -- that's not being a 'bad' person
That's being an honest person, someone who is explaining how one truly feels, which is admirably greater that putting on an act of 'falsehood'
Just think of a professional nurse caring for someone with compassion.
Compassion and caring is not the same as 'passionate devotion'
Hops has explained it far better than I feel able, and also, has first hand experience in compassionate caring, which I perceive to be of a most professional caring nature. And very much love in action.
Love is more that a feeling in any case, it is expressed in action, there are four types of love, as I have previously written about here on the board.
However, only you yourself know of your feelings for your husband. There is a possibility that you may have gone into a protective numb mode; regarding thoughts of facing separation and loss.
Love & Hugs,
Leah
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Ami, now I feel guilty for saying what I did, (or phrasing it the way I did). As far as I'm concerned I feel that we are ALL going over the same topics over and over again, looking at all the angles and all the feelings involved until we are at last able to find some resolution of them in our own complex hearts. I don't think you are doing anything differently from what we are all doing.
Bill
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Dear Bill,
You honored me with your other response---not "guilted "me. You "knew" my thinking process and helped me to see how I heal. I realized that you described it perfectly and it helped me to see that it is just 'my way"
As you said, we all approach healing(and everything else) so differently.
Thank you for caring enough to help me know myself better. Love Ami
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Thank you Lise, Hops and Leah for your caring and supportive responses. It means a lot to me Love Ami
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Hi Ami,
Sure. If it feels right!
Izzy
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Walk on by.
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I don't think you are a bad person at all Ami. You guys have been through a lot together and have lots of history. You can see how you were drawn together. You have built lives together to the extent you have your sons who sound like great guys. All of these things are good and useful purposes of marriage, but there's been a lot of water under the bridge and you know the rough underside of it all. You know similarly, with my mom, I don't have a lot of strong feelings about it all anymore. As Hops says - I don't have a lot of confusion about where the bottom of that relationship is and it is what it is - which is... not all that much and not what ideally, or even marginally, or humbly, I might like.
Another thing that occurred to me is how people in my family will create or intensify problems to create a sense of urgency in other people (such as me). It worked and it worked and it worked until it did not work any more. Many times it is "crying wolf." But now, even when it is real and serious - I just can't get exercised about it. I have no way of knowing if there is crying wolf going on or if your H has a history of crying wolf, but it just reminded me of how it is with my 'people.'
Also, I wonder if the thoughts you are calling 'selfish' are actually 'selfish' or if that is just what you were taught to call them. Does that make any sense. I feel like that could be said better. I will maybe try again tomorrow?
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I am new here so I hope I haven't missed the point. I read something the other day that made sense. I am not sure that I am at that stage yet but something you said makes me think you are. Here it is forgiveness. You are part way there because you said that you know she did not knowingly choose that type of behaviour. If you are able to accept that it wasn't her fault, maybe by going to the next stage of forgiveness, you will find what you need to get rid of that bad feeling and numbness.
Forgiveness starts with acceptance. I go by the work on death and dying done by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. This isn't a physical death but it is the end (death) of a relationship. I call the process DABDA, so I can remember the stages: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance or forgiveness. Every loss seems to need us to go through these stages of recovery with the end stage being forgiveness if it is not a physical loss, or acceptance if it is.
Hope this helps and doesn't put me offside. Kimberli
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Hey Ami, how about a picture of you and your doggy? LOL
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Dear Lupita,
When I can figure out the digital camera ,you will have a picture of Henrietta (Standard Poodle-13) and Mimi(Yorkie-14 months)
Love Ami
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Am-you know my H is a drunk and every time he gets drunk (which is most every weekend) I wonder when his drinking will kill him. If he is late from work I imagine him dead in a car accident or I think he will FINALLY go to the doctor and have a liver problem or lung cancer. Part of me thinks it is his just reward for being a stupid person but I am sure if it actually happened then I would be very sad and he would take on Saint status.
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Dear Kelly,
I have to say that I very much admire your honesty and ALWAYS have. I am struggling to be "human" and not "perfect"in my emotions ,as my M demanded.
I can always count on you for honesty and I REALLY appreciate it. Love Ami
((((((((Kelly)))))))))))
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Thanks! And you know it is true of you also. If your H fell over dead of a heart attack you would be devastated. Even your mom. Sometimes I wish they would die but that is during a moment when I figure my life would be without problems if they were not here. But ask those who were tormented by an N who passed-they almost always say that THEY continue to torment themselves-those N tapes that play in their brains.
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But that goes back to my POURING WISDOM thread. If he would stop drinking then I would not imagine that he would die. It is this screwy thinking I have that somehow he deserves it because he is playing russian roulette with his life!
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Dear Kelly,
Actually,I WOULD be devastated if my H died. We have shared memories over 20 years that no one could ever reproduce. Even the bad ones were a "shared" life.
I am glad that I "stayed" in a way and sad in another way.
I guess that my "folksy' philosophy is "once you step in it.........(lol)
Seriously,I would be devastated if any of them died b/c of the deep connection. With my M, I still have truth to face before I am "free" Love Ami
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Dear Kelly,
I am not living with an alcoholic,so it is easy for me to say.However, he is not doing it to be a "jerk". He has "demons" that are torturing him. He is running from extreme ,unhealed pain . He is trying to medicate all the bad memories and feelings with alcohol.
I never lived with it,so I ,perhaps, should not even give an opinion.
I am sure that every day living is very,very hard.My point is that the drinking is the symptom of the suffering. Love Ami
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Yes. His drinking started as fun and then he realized he could medicate the pain and anxiety and now it has become an addiction. The call of the drunk is stronger than my disapproval! I believe that with or without them I still have to travel the road of healing by myself. Lately I have missed my ex. Not because I still love him but because of the shared memories we have. I watched a video of my daughters when they were young and I felt regret that we were still not a family.
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My ex addictions cost him his family. He has nothing. No house no car no furniture no children no security. All because his addiction cost him it all. But I realize that without all his baggage I really liked and appreciated him. He was smart and had great taste in music. He loved a good cup of coffee at starbucks. But he could not keep his pants zipped or keep a good job. I just pick men who have problems. I guess I think that is what I deserved.
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Dear Kelly,
That was a big part of the reason that I stayed. If I COULD go back, I probably would have left BUT the big thing would have to be ,'Was I well enough NOT to "repeat'?"
I guess that I knew,intuitively, that I was NOT and THAT is why I stayed.
Kelly,I admire you for facing your life as honestly as you are Love Ami
(((((((((((((Kelly))))))))))))))
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Hi Overcomer and Ami-
When I came to this board, you accepted me as I was and let me know that I deserved to be happy and did not deserve the abuse that I was experiencing in my own home. This was quite freeing for me, as there was suddenly no shame in the secrets of my FOO or my "marriage" keeping me locked inside, and I am now rebuilding my life, thanks in great part to you. I am happier and more at peace than I have been for a long time, despite the day-to-day challenges of a divorce from an N. Had NH been even remotely adhereing to our vows and not threatening my life, I would have taken another path, but I would have still been happier and freer, with your support and acceptance.
I pray that you give yourselves the same acceptance that you give others. You are both dear to me, and I want you to be happy and know that you are precious and loved. Please don't let anyone shame you, including yourselves. Only you and the Creator know what is right for you in your exercise of free will. I am praying that you experience great healing in your situations and great peace in your hearts.
Love,
Changing
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Ami,
I am new to this board too...and have found it very helpful for me w/ my N sister. I don't know the answer to your question....since today I am asking myself the same question. I know that realistically it is OK to let things go...but if you are a sensitive, caring, emotional person who is really trying to work on themselves....as it sounds like you and everyone else on this board it...then IT IS HARD.
Sometimes (like today) I get so clouded in what is right and what is wrong...who is right and who is wrong...what should I be feeling. Oh...and that brings in the guilt. Part of me knows what I should feel as a strong person but then all the N voices from all the N people in my life come into play and I question myself. Sometimes I wish I had no self awareness, I had no emotions, I never tried to be a better person, a stronger person by going to AA and therapy and reading lots of book and becoming a Social Worker for that matter. I wish that I could just turn it all off and be dumbly happy....that I never broke any walls down...that I was never even aware that I had walls or issues...that I could never have really seen my families dysfunction.
And it seems that everytime I feel like I am in a really good place in my life...taking action on my career, getting to the gym everyday, being really on top of my game ...someone (sisiter, husband) just knock me down...and it is really hard not to fall into the selfpity and guilt. And it is really hard to not crawl into a ball and feel weak....like they must be right I am defective. Things like having my sister verbally punch me really set me back...and it is hard to process it and find a way to let it go.
We are so conditioned to be weak people that when we finally get some strength and start to change...the people around us that like us weak (since it makes them feel better) will do anything in their power to keep you down and weak.
When YOU change the dance...those around you don't understand it and don't want to dance with the new you....because they can't led.
So, I am not sure that helped..I hope that it might have. And YES it is okay to LET N thoughts and emotions go by....however, know that it takes time and if you really process them (which can be painfull) you can let them go for good. It is better to go through the uncomfortable process of your emotions then to just stuff them.
Love is an action word and letting go with love takes action...it takes work.
Hollis
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Hi Hollis,
I can relate.
Took me a long time to realize if someone was punching me verbally I needed to avoid them just as I would avoid anyone who would punch my physically.
Some believe that verbal viciousness is even harder to recover from than blows. Blows are brutal, but unambiguous.
Words stay like worms in the brain.
I wonder if it takes the body and psyche just as long to recover from a brutal verbal blow?
Anyway, I was just thinking how I hope you will declare your serenity, your mind, and your self-respect (and therefore your ears, i.e. phone-- and eyes, i.e. email, letters, visits) off limits to your Nsister, because she is what she is and will never be anything else. So she can't/won't become anything different ever, only option left is for you to.
Different as in inaccessible...
What do you think?
Hopalong
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I wonder if you can be cordial and yet set firm boundaries? I have a cousin who will not answer his phone AND will not return calls. Is this boundary setting or avoidance? His wife and he are former drug addicts so I wonder if this is just left over paranoia? I know I limit the conversations and contact to avoid getting in too deep where a confrontation will occur. Has anyone tried the dumb blonde approach? Simply saying THAT IS NICE to just about anything anyone says to you?
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Thanks for the feedback...
As the days pass I do get more clarity on the situation w/ Nsister. She has done the classic N stance and basically said to me ..."I cut you out of my life". Which leaves me confused since she has pretty much said in a nut shell....."If you don't agree with me and see things my way or you make waves, than I want nothing to do with you." But in all of my reading and feedback from others, this seems to be classic N behavior. So it should be easy to detach from her...since she has already cut me out (as she has done to my father for seven years, to me in the past for a year and to many of her friends).
The really sad thing for me (and I need to accept it) is that my Dad is really sick (78 w/ cancer) and I would just expect (oh how could I !) that now would be the time for my siblings to pull together...not pull apart. My mom died 6 years ago...and she basically shut us out then so should I really expect any thing different. It is just a hard nut for me to swallow.
So, the more that people remind me that it is okay to detach the more it becomes clear to me that I can and it is OK.
Hollis