Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on December 05, 2007, 12:41:35 PM
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Moses stuttered.
David’s armor didn’t fit.
John Mark was rejected by Paul.
Timothy had ulcers.
Hosea’s wife was a prostitute.
Amos’ only training was in the school of fig-tree pruning.
Jacob was a liar.
David had an affair.
Solomon was too rich.
Jesus was too poor.
Abraham was too old.
David was too young.
Peter was afraid of death.
Lazarus was dead.
John was self-righteous.
Naomi was a widow.
Paul was a murderer.
So was Moses.
Jonah ran from God.
Miriam was a gossip.
Gideon and Thomas both doubted.
Jeremiah was depressed and suicidal.
Elijah was burned out.
John the Baptist was a loudmouth.
Martha was a worry-wart.
Mary was lazy.
Samson had long hair.
Noah got drunk.
Did I mention that Moses had a short fuse?
So did Peter, Paul…well, lots of folks did.
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I LOVE this ,Lise. We try so hard to be "perfect" and it is so silly--isn't it? Thanks for posting it. Ami
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That is hysterical and true. And I was raised with a perfection in our Christianity expectation. The first time my parents caught me drunk I should have yelled NOAH got drunk!
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As I always say....The difference between a saint and the average Christian is that the saint knows they are a sinner - the average Christian thinks they are a saint but will not admit that they sin.
The average Christian secretly thinks they are better than everyone else. The saint, who genuinely IS better than everyone else, spends too little time thinking about themselves to even consider something so trivial.
Lise
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Good insight. I was raised in an uptight, legalistic Christian home. Of course, the Narcissism of my mother made it worse. What would people think if we were not perfect. It was so bad that I chastised my best friends because they were Catholic. Now that I think of it I wonder why my mom even let me be friends with them. None of my friends were ok with her later on. She was and is still suspect of almost everyone (unless they are hand picked by her.....)
The Bible story that impacted me the most was to realize that David (the man who God loved) committed adultery and then had the woman's husband killed to try to save himself from getting the gal pregnant. And yet God loved him despite all that sin!!!
Boy, my sins are pretty small compared to that!!! And yet, the guilt!! Over the top!
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Good insight. I was raised in an uptight, legalistic Christian home. Of course, the Narcissism of my mother made it worse. What would people think if we were not perfect. It was so bad that I chastised my best friends because they were Catholic. Now that I think of it I wonder why my mom even let me be friends with them. None of my friends were OK with her later on. She was and is still suspect of almost everyone (unless they are hand picked by her.....)
The Bible story that impacted me the most was to realize that David (the man who God loved) committed adultery and then had the woman's husband killed to try to save himself from getting the gal pregnant. And yet God loved him despite all that sin!!!
Boy, my sins are pretty small compared to that!!! And yet, the guilt!! Over the top!
Wow...I did now know that David story, that makes me feel a little more hope. Sometime I do not feel that I measure up enough for God -- and the reality is that I DON'T :P But He still loves me, unconditionally.
I think that David had a N parent, perhaps? God must go easy on those of us with N parents.
Thanks ((Kelly)) for your contribution.
Lise
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Dear Lise,
What I love about you is that you see the "humanity" in yourself and others. I LOVE that.I really do. It is so easy to be "super spiritual". It is such a comfortable place.Most Christians seem to be there.
I really love that you won't let yourself stay at a "fake " place,but keep pushing to find the depth of who you REALLY are.
That is an inspiration to me.It really is,Lise Love Ami
(((((((((((Lise))))))))))))
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hi OC
Good insight. I was raised in an uptight, legalistic Christian home. Of course, the Narcissism of my mother made it worse. What would people think if we were not perfect.
I've thought about this a lot---from things the N did, but I knew he was an agnostic, at least, likely athiest, but he sure messed up at AA on the spiritual stiff. There was a Sat.evening meeting, Open to anyone, and he asked me to come as afterward everyone went for Chinese Food.
This is where I first noticed how 'different' he was from everyone else there. No spirit. Not spiritual
Then over Chinese Fodd I was disgusted that the A's rehashed their drinking days and laughed as though it was a pile of fun and they would like to do it again. Even here at the restaurant, N was different from everyone. Had to be the most exhorbitant--even though at age 25 he killed a 15 yr.old while drunk and racing on the wrong side of the road.
Then when depressed, sometimes that incident became the reason du jour for his depression.
Your mother an N..... a Christian home (or is the word legalistic the operative one?)........can one be a Christian, a spiritual person AND a Narcissistic (disordered ) 'cannot love anyone/thing but him/herself?'
I would like a good, responsible, reasonable, truthful response to the difference of (simply) a Christian really loving God/Jesus and a Narcissist who is incapable of love. OC or anybody?
thanks
Love
Izzy
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With my mom Christianity offered a better life. She had made some pretty poor choices and was a single mom at the age of 18. So she jumped into the church and started in the "country club for Saints." After that it became her persona-the successful tither who the church could not live without. It morphed into a way of life not a deep personal relationship with Christ. I have been on a quest to find the spiritual side of it. The less judgmental side. The love one another side.
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Thanks OC,
To be the indispensable tither, regular attender and was receiving her Supply......................... and did she have 'good friends' and use a faux self there?
I'm gettting it..............!
love Izzy
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Oh yes. she is well known in the Christian circles as the lady with the money. Her supply is wrapped up in everyone knowing who she is and that she is loaded-and she gives her money so they all lips her butt.
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ba ha I mean KISS HER BUTT!
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"I would like a good, responsible, reasonable, truthful response to the difference of (simply) a Christian really loving God/Jesus and a Narcissist who is incapable of love."
Hi Izzy,
This is a really good question and I hear your frustration with the N or person who claims to be a Christian but is incapable of love.
However, I'm not sure if I completely understand -- I don't think that it is always so black and white.
My mom was a church N - she took my sister and I to church every sunday but she was the least Christian person in her actions or her capcity to love that I knew.
So why did she go to church?
M. Scott Peck, in his book People of the Lie says that a good place to look for evil is in the church.
Two predominate characteristics of evil are:
Scapegoating - not taking responsibility for their actions.
and
Disguise (in my opinion is the best classification for evil)
Evil N's love the disguise of Christianity because it helps to force out of their mind the reality of there own sinful nature and helps to paint an illusion or deceptive image that they are OK to the world from whom they are hiding from.
There is one pain that a N's can't stand in life it is the pain of the sense or awareness of there own wrongs or humanity. They can't admit that they are imperfect.
Part of the reason that people in AA laugh at themselves so much is because it serves as a healer and brings a great sense of relief that we are not alone in our past shameful behaviours. To be able to laugh at ourselves is a huge sign of health and growth.
That is part of why this posting brings relief to me, because I constantly hear my mom's voice in my head saying"
"how dare you make a mistake"
"what were you thinking, you little turd"
"how could you be so stupid and make so many mistakes?"
"when will you ever learn?"
"If I told you once I told you twice - you should know by now!"
This kind of verbal abuse over a period of ones childhood and life time can create deep (deep because the N will not even be aware of their pain) shame and anger which the N will want to cover over with a guise of pretend goodness.
One more thing,
Christ was a very assertive person, he spoke with boldness and authority. He was not shy about expressing his anger with sinners. He did all of this with great love though...something that I cannot admit that I have always or often done --very hard.
Hope this helps,
Lise
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ba ha I mean KISS HER BUTT!
Got your meaning anyway, OC, with the LIPS
Ha Ha
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Too funny. Gab I liked your post-it has my mom written ALL OVER IT!
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Hi Lise
My mom was a church N - she took my sister and I to church every sunday but she was the least Christian person in her actions or her capcity to love that I knew.
So why did she go to church?
This is so much like my mother, and father. We did not practice Christianity at home because we kids didn't know what it was. My parents never acted like Christians. We went to church every Sunday and my guess is that it was for 'appearances sake'.
I recall a few occasions when our minister would visit our home, but there was nothing more than Heaven and Hell that ever stuck in my head. And there was something our minister told us to do and that was to use these five words on our fingers and the 5 other fingers pointed them out. "The Lord Is My Shepard". Do after saying our prayers at bedtime. "My" lands on the ring finger and we were to encircle that finger with our whole other hand.
I was too young, I did as I was told but never knew "why"
Part of the reason that people in AA laugh at themselves so much is because it serves as a healer and brings a great sense of relief that we are not alone in our past shameful behaviours.
I rather expected this
but not this. To be able to laugh at ourselves is a huge sign of health and growth.
It seems that everything I'm learning about is something that I ought not to have missed.
Thanks
Izzy!
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Hi Izzy-
You funny thing! That button reminds me of George Bernard Shaw's "Don Juan In Hell". Oh well, back to felony homicide ....
Love,
Changing
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Up so late, (((Changing)))
Take care of yourself.
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Hi Lighter Dear-
Baby Sammy and I were up studying...soon we will have a few blessed days off!!!
Hope you and your babies are well!
Love,
Changing
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Yup yup yup... doing great.
Hope you and Sammy are enjoying some respite from all the hustle and bustle of school and legal details.
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Gadden- So true about God using imperfect vessals and making them priceless instruments in the scheme of things.
Izzy- You are the best!
Lighter- You were right, as always, I was doing without sleep for too long, rather self-defeating- I was starting to get sick during my test- hope I got all of the elements , etc down on paper. Now the flu is full-blown, and Baby Sammy is such good company with his melting eyes! I just have to get rid of this MUCOUS prior to Contracts final- much too tricky to get muddled up!
Love,
Changing
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This is an interesting thread. Thanks for starting it Gabben.
Changing.... I shoot my nose full of Zicam and Ocean and Grapeseed oil extract.... I drink fluids and eat me vitamins and try to take echinaccia and goldenseal (sans alcohol) along with a shot of apple cider vinegar (with the mother) mixed with a bit of honey in the mornings when I'm all snotty.
Hard to do bc you feel like just laying there and leaking but..... you gotta get better, my dear.
((Changing and companion Sammy))