Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Leah on December 14, 2007, 09:57:52 AM
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I have been wondering about, and mulling over, the subject of ....
What is Abuse ?
.... from the dictionary:
> use to bad effect or for bad purpose
> misuse position of power
> insult verbally
> maltreat a person
> improper use of power
> unjust or corrupt practise
> deception
> hiding the truth
Therefore, it is possible that anyone, in any life situation or circumstance, can abuse another.
and also,
in any relational and / or domestic violence situation.
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The Wikipedia definition: Abuse refers to the use or treatment of something (a person, item, substance, concept, or vocabulary) that is seen as harmful.
Here is the link to the article which includes links to articles on various types of abuse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse)
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It's a question I have thought about a lot. One thing I have tried to do is reframe the issue from "what is abuse" to "what is traumatizing". That way the focus is on personal experience and not what the world or the legal system defines as abuse. A lot of behavior can be traumatizing for others that would never get a person into legal trouble.
I think it's an especially important question for those of us who have a lot of experience with "quiet" N's.
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It's a question I have thought about a lot. One thing I have tried to do is reframe the issue from "what is abuse" to "what is traumatizing". That way the focus is on personal experience and not what the world or the legal system defines as abuse. A lot of behavior can be traumatizing for others that would never get a person into legal trouble.
I think it's an especially important question for those of us who have a lot of experience with "quiet" N's.
Deartjr100,
So glad that you have brought up "traumatizing" as it is something that rarely mentioned.
And certainly, personally, I have not comes across anyone with an understanding of "traumatizing" with regard to a "quiet" N.
As my now exNH was a "quiet" N and that is what I endured from him "traumatizing"
People who know him as he is, "quiet" would find it hard to comphrehend and accept that he was abusive, based soley on him being a "quiet" person.
Truly, can't thank you enough for highlighting this vital aspect of abuse, as no-one in my life experience has ever acknowledged it.
Now, I truly am so very glad that I tentatively started this thread.
Love, Leah
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Izzy, I don't think most people would think that. I think its more common knowledge now that abuse victims and victims of trauma like earthquakes and such, and also victims of crime suffer from PTSD.
I think traumatizing abuse is the sort that affects after the initial incident. For example, I could walk down the street and be called an insulting name by a stranger. I might get upset, but I probably won't be traumatized by it. However, being call the same name by my mother, who has a history of emotional and verbal abuse would be traumatizing. I think it depends a lot on the relationship too. We don't expect parents to do these things to us. We don't expect spouses, lovers, etc to do these things. These people are supposed to love us, and instead, they hurt us. In the workplace, abuse is a little different, but still we expect to be treated a certain way and we are traumatized when those expectation aren't met.
Does that make sense?
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Regarding PTSD and trauma
The bullyonline website helped me enourmously, and interestingly, PTSD is highlighted in every single aspect of life.
Resources for understanding, insight, healing and recovery.
http://www.bullyonline.org (http://www.bullyonline.org)
Love, Leah
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Izzy, I often think about what my mother would say when I make a choice about doing/buying something. If she would not approve, chances are very good, I'm making a healthy choice. Pretty bad when that's a consideration for all choices I make, isn't it?
I understand what you're saying. I don't know that I can use the word "traumatize" either, but I can definitely say abuse. The abuse was more of a covert nature, rather than something tangible and easy to point to.
I just wasn't sure I was making sense when I was replying. Sometimes I think something and it comes out funny.
Leah, that website helped me a lot too.
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My Dears Izzy and Tayana-
I believe that you have both been to war, and won a decisive hard - fought victory for yourselves.
With Admiration,
Changing
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Speaking of which.... how's your battle going lately, changing?
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It's a question I have thought about a lot. One thing I have tried to do is reframe the issue from "what is abuse" to "what is traumatizing". That way the focus is on personal experience and not what the world or the legal system defines as abuse. A lot of behavior can be traumatizing for others that would never get a person into legal trouble.
I think it's an especially important question for those of us who have a lot of experience with "quiet" N's.
Oh! Thank you for this, TJR.... exactly!!
And thank you, dear Leah, for this thread. Feeling less traumatized by the minute, most days, and yet... there are times....
Love,
Carolyn
(((((((((((((((((Bean)))))))))))))))) ugh :?
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> Check if the TV is warm and one has been watching TV on ones day off
> Check the bonnet of the car to feel if it is warm and check if one has been out for a visit to friend (female) on day off
> Remove a component from car (forgot the name of it) to ensure one cannot enjoy a day out on ones own
> Hide or Steal ones car keys
Another one for the list:
> Divide and Rule and/or Divide and Conquer
Experienced that one in various guises and forms, in FOO and none.
Leah
and ((((((((( Bean )))))))))) I have read through your very long list again and my heart saddens that you have suffered all those
areas of abuse. Patricia Evans "Controlling People" must certainly have brought you a huge wave of relief with validation.
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Dear Changing,
Would anyone take any notice of me? Whenever I post anything remotely helpful or positive or encouraging or whatever, however one would describe --- it meets with ridicule and personal attack --- subliminal sometimes.
Most times it's ignored.
Posted about Communication, Perception and Interpretation with Tips and Ideas to aid meaningful communication -- and encouraged as we all of us make mistakes.
Perception slants bounced around in ridicule after I took the time to share on the subject of Perception.
And the list goes on.
I can * see *
Leah
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Leah, hon,
You are floundering in the murk.
But you are not murk, or muck.
Please just rest a little. You are trying valiantly to work with your own voice...it's just not clear and crisp and tidy.
That doesn't matter.
It's okay to be who you are, as you are.
I hope you won't give in to this despair.
Thank you for your response to my rough day.
Here's one back for you...
((((((((((((Leah))))))))))))
love to you,
Hops
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Leah, hon,
You are floundering in the murk.
But you are not murk, or muck.
Please just rest a little. You are trying valiantly to work with your own voice...it's just not clear and crisp and tidy.
That doesn't matter.
It's okay to be who you are, as you are.
I hope you won't give in to this despair.
Thank you for your response to my rough day.
Here's one back for you...
((((((((((((Leah))))))))))))
love to you,
Hops
Dear Hops,
With all due respect the floundering in the murk has been created by this board as it is happening on this board.
How can you say " it's just not clear crisp and tidy" ?
When previously you have commended my voice and even liked my use of the word "Serenity"
Why could you not say "sorry" with sincerity yesterday ??
You do for other people here.
When you jumped to the wrong conclusion (Observer has joined the board today .... read Lupita's thread )
Paps has posted today .... read Paps thread.
Why did you just dismiss me with .... "oh never mind" ?
When I have only ever shown you respect and courtesy, it shocked me, and it hurt me.
And I have expressed interest in your UU faith as I have with Janet too.
I went to the UU website you posted and read all about your UU church.
And then went to the UU website for the UK for Janet too.
What did I ever do, but be, me. What's so wrong with that?
But, I think I understand, truly I do.
Love, Leah
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Dear Changing,
No, don't leave forthwith at all, instead stay, as I am going to stay.
You and I both, are genuine people, and I think I understand.
You and I both, think we are unworthy, because we have been told that, maybe, lets think again, maybe we have been sold a lie ?
Don't buy it Changing. Because, I am not buying it.
Changing, you have sat your finals to be a Lawyer and that clearly demonstrates that you are a people person.
Likewise, I am a people person, love people, but don't always like what they do sometimes (myself included).
Love, Leah
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Thank you Leah for your understanding. In my uniquely obtuse way I set out to show you support and give your tormentors food for thought and instead my ridiculous efforts were imperfectly executed and therefore counterproductive and unintentionally hurtful to you. I am truly sorry, and have removed the offensive post. If there is any way that I can make amends to you, please let me know, as I would appreciate it.
Changing
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Dear (((( Changing ))))
You have my sincerest admiration as a genuine person. The real article, and you'll do for me, just as you are.
And rest assured, you have no need to do anything, honestly.
My genuine support and love is yours.
Love, Leah
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Dear Leah-
Expanding upon what I said before, I wrote my my post as my way to stand with you and support what I perceived were your efforts toward harmony and civility here. I was attempting to analyze the destructive dynamic that I have seen lately on the Board in a way that did not directly name anyone but would give my perspective on what has been happening and what seems abusive and harmatic, as I believed that I was in accord with you in this. I also wanted to give you support in what I perceived that you are trying to do as far in handling situations, where it appeared that there might be less than sincere efforts for honest communication on the part of some others that you were trying to get through to, which lack of honesty on their part I also insisted was a form of abuse. I was trying to see what could be done by our community to get things back on track as well. I most certainly was not trying to express anything but sympathy and solidarity for what you have been doing to promote a peaceful community and healing communication, and wanted your take on what would work to stop the rancor as this is your area of expertise.
I thought posting my support diplomatically on your thread, rather than a brash declaration of dissention challenging people by name on another thread ,might serve a useful purpose as a positive dialogue, and again I am deeply sorry if I unintentionally expressed myself in such a way that it caused you any misapprehension,hurt or discomfiture. My intention was one of tactful support and not to use you in any way as a safety zone and I regret that I failed in properly executing my post and gave you a wrong or hurtful impression, which would be exactly opposite of what I set out to do. I sincerely apologize for my failure, and accept any criticism on your part for harmatic flaws and errors of ommission or commission that you may find in my post and will publically correct whatever you find objectionable. It will not happen again.
Changing
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Dear Changing,
I thought you wanted to engage, that's what you said, and I have only extended genuine empathy and understanding, just now.
Truly don't understand what you are saying right now. You deleted all your posts.
And I thought it was all sorted, and now you have posted again. While all the time I was expecting us to engage as you had suggested and 'chat about any ideas etc' as you suggested to me. Which I thought was a really sensible idea.
Please don't take my meaning of a safety zone (struggled for a better phrase) incorrectly, as it was meant as a comforting understanding
comment to elevate you, it was for you.
Truly, I am very sorry if that has upset you in any way and I sincerely ask for your forgiveness. What can I do ?
Just looked back at the postings when I was not on this board from May'07 to Oct'07 and reading through them makes the last few days look like a picnic in paradise.
So things aren't really all that bad, Changing, and your post, you said was to suggest that we work together, sharing ideas and thoughts, and I have been here wanting to do that with you. Honestly. Please don't have a go at me as that feels unfair in a sense. As all I was trying to do was uplift. I would emphasize again that I am certainly not an expert and most certainly, I do not profess to be one in any shape or form.
You are soon to be a respected Lawyer, a professional woman, and I respect you so much for that.
Thank you for your support and kindness with compassion to me, which is very much valued, at all times.
Love, Peace and Harmony,
Leah
PS. Have created a thread entitled "Consideration and Respect" for anyone who wishes to post -- what they appreciate. That's just a thought for
others to consider and decide as they are led or as they wish - or not, and that's okay.
I am no expert in these matters, it was simply an idea.
Love, Leah
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Gosh, Leah.
I am so sorry.
I really have failed you.
I apologize.
Hops
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Dear Hops,
Please know with sincerity that I truly believe you mean what you have expressed.
And please know that we are restored, and I am healed.
"Thank You"
Gracefully yours, always.
Love, Leah
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WOW BEAN! I'd like to examine my life with these forms of abuse. Have I been guilty of or have people of my past been guilty of doing these things to me:
Some forms of abuse I have been exposed to include patterns of:
manipulation: ladies and gentlemen, I used to be one of the most SKILLED manipulators as a child. If I didn't get what I want, I kicked screamed, broke windows, until my parents gave in to me. That's why I know when my daughters are trying to "dupe" me into something...they say "you can't con a conman" (former conman that is)
criticism (often disguised as concern): I don't disguise criticism as concern at all...I out and out CRITICIZE...it's something Ive been really working hard at overcoming, as i HATE this in myself. I grew up with a mother who always found the "cloud in every silver lining" and still to this day DOES.
ex: If I talk to my mother on the phone and say "I just got this job typing transcripts" she will inevitably begin questioning me and making the job seem so dangerous that i don't want to even try it. Like this: "are you SURE you can handle those long hours?" "maybe you should take an easier position; perhaps being the doorman for a while...you know, just till you are comfortable...you weren't trained in that at all. I dunno, I am not sure you can handle it. What will you do if someone is next to you that you don't get along with..." and ON IT GOES NO MATTER WHAT IT IS! A birthday? "how old is Anna now? Oh you'd better WATCH that one around the boys! I wouldn't let her do ____________ be careful of __________"
See? I grew up hearing that about ANYTHING I ever tried to do and yes, as Bean said it was always "I'm just telling you this for your own good, because I care." Now, I will out and out tell my mother "I'm just not that PARANOID MOM!" that usually simmers her down.
trivializing my feelings - I'm guilty of having done this to my girls at times, yes. Girls tend to be very dramatic and sometimes it's just gotten to me. I don't mean to trivialize, but yes I sometimes have and then apologized and realized that their feelings are real to them and valid.
disregard for my feelings - My husband has done this to me and my children. If we stay home from work/school, and are not in bed moaning, he will say "I thought you were supposed to be sick!" It is the makings for a very VERBAL fight with me.
mind games, such as when explaining my accomplishments, responding with something that my sister did - my Ndaughter does this to me a LOT...telling me she isn't going to do something to help me around the house and then when husband comes in, says "why didn't you tell me you needed help, Mom?" Thank GOD husband caught on to her games!
Judging - I'm learning to not offer unsolicited advice as much anymore
ignoring- the "silent treatment" has to be one of the CRUELEST forms of mental torture and abuse that I know of. This was done to me not only by my mother but by my former mentor. Apparently, this lady uses it with her daughter regularly too. Usually, they also will talk to everyone around EXCEPT YOU. It feels AWFUL!
exaggerating small mistakes- My entire family does this to each other. Everything has to be a huge drama! Drives me nuts!
expecting, demanding, requiring perfection - see "exaggerating small mistakes"
disagreeing in an unfair manner with my opinions - Oh, husband will say to me, "Any idiot would KNOW that!" I've learned to stop him in his tracks though by saying "I do NOT appreciate being called an IDIOT and I do not accept your label!"
arguing with me constantly about my beliefs - Roland and I used to do this but not so much anymore since I agreed to go to his church, provided I can go to one of my choice as well at another time.
constantly comparing and contrasting me with other people - I LIVED THIS! My mother compared me to my cousin my entire life. She became a teacher, so she has 'arrived" and achieved "success" and the underlying feeling has been "what will YOU do that is comparable to your cousins...oh wait, you don't have the mental ability to be like them, I forgot!)
using icy tones or looks- former mentor could chill me to the bone with her look. I called it the "I think NOT!" look. She would tilt her head down and look at me from the top of her eyelids with a cold, disapproving stare.
exposing me to a rigorous "training regime" which entails always taking care of another's feelings, concerns, problems first
placing my needs second- husband used to put his sister's needs above mine
controlling- I struggle with this one
snooping in my private affairs- step-dad has done that to me in past...digging through garbage to read private letters i've written, so he could "catch" me writing against him
telling my "secrets" - I used to be very GUILTY of doing this. I was so thrilled when I finally learned how to be discreet with what people told me in private. I'm great at this now. I have, however, had people divulge what i told THEM in private, to others.
"forgetting" things that are important to me, such as commitments- husband has done this
making me wait for needlessly- husband again
making me wait on them: sometimes my family does this to each other. When my girls were younger, I put WAY TOO MUCH responsiblity on them. The roles were sadly reversed at times, with them being mother and me, child. JUST SO SO WRONG!
hitting, slapping- yes, my mother did this to me, and I have done it to my children at times, though not recently.
yelling, screaming, bickering- too much of it at times even now from children and husband. I've learned to deal with my own anger in other ways.
asking me to keep inappropriate secrets- many times people have sworn me to secrecy about everything from "having affairs, slipping back into eating disorders, weird practices spiritually that they didnt' want people to know about, general feelings about others)
punishing me for telling people what she’s done- former mentors, husband did this
being two-faced -a favorite of the abusers in my life. This way, when I would tell people about how they treated me, they would never believe it. "oh she wouldn't do that. you must have misunderstood, honey!" (hard to be a whistleblower when others around you are wearing EARPLUGS!)
playing favorites- yep, i saw this growing up cause I was favored and then I experienced it with mentor when she favored her children by hugging them in front of me, knowing I needed comfort at that moment, but instead shunning me.
scapegoating- oh I'm a professoinal scapegoat...I've gotten so good at it, if it were a paid profession, i'd be a MILLIONAIRE...if something is missing, "LAURA TOOK IT" someone hurt "LAURA DID IT" someone angry "IT'S LAURA'S FAULT!"
slamming my friends or other people I care about- my husband drove almost ALL my friends away over the years! He still bad-mouths my online friends.
gossiping about me or people I care about- I've been guilty of being a gossip in my distant past, but I do a bit better with it now. To say I never speak about someone behind their back, would be a LIE...I think MOST people do this. It's about the heart intention of mentioning that person to another that matters, in my opinion. PLus, I don't tell anyone something about a person that i woudn't say to that person directly.
denying events occurred - I've experienced gaslighting BIG TIME with former mentors, N daughter..."no, Laura, that NEVER HAPPENED! you are remembering it wrong." (negating the time that there were WITNESSES who SAW IT!)
isolating- former mentor was an expert at this one
violating my psychic boundaries - such as using the 20 questions routine on me until she gets the info she wants-stepdad, mentors
turning me "off" when she's done with me- oh gosh, i used to tell former mentor that I felt like a vase put up on a shelf to display and only pull me down to look at me once in a while and then put me right back again! (feeling like an object)
withholding (feelings, sharing, insight, thoughts, etc)- of course. This makes them feel superior to us.
giving my property away- YES. My favorite horse toy was given to my sister and I was told "you are too big now for this...Danielle is going to have it." I HATED DANIELLE since that time, but I'm ok with her now... PARENTS DO NOT do this to your children. Let THEM decide when to outgrow toys unless they are 40 yrs old still playing with dollies or something!
indian giving (giving me a gift then taking it back) - daughters do this to me and each other...sigh, husband had a habit of fixing up vacuum cleaners, giving them to me...I'd pick my favorite and then i'd go to use it and he'd given it to the neighbor...then he'd complain I never vacuumed.
taking my money- everyone has done this to me
forcing me to work to pay for things as a child - only to teach me the value of earning things...not normal necessities though.
making me eat certain foods that made me sick- yep, parents made me sit there till I ate it allllllllllllllllll. My husband has tried to do that with my daughters many times, but i stepped in and countered his stupidity and cruelty on their behalf. It has caused MUCH FRICTION between us too, but I'd still do it! I battled bad food relations because of that stuff!
committing my time without asking me- children, in-laws have ALL done this to me. My husband has too.
expressing opinions that aren't mine for me - I HATE THIS ONE! I've SEEN people do this to their children and I wanted to jump on them and scream
discussing me in my presence as if I'm not there, or talking about me in the 3rd person- a specialty of narcissists, yes. Often, a narcissist will even refer to themselves in 3rd person...it's really Weird!
saying - you should be happy you're not an abused child!- my mother would tell me this a lot too.
saying - I wish I never met/had/knew you!- mother again
embarrassing me for fun- step-father. When I wouldn't eat something, he had me sit between the broom closet and fridge while they all said "now for the continuing sage of "Laura starves again" and then they'd laugh at me
making me the butt of a joke- yep, many people have done this and sometimes I've done it to my children. It's fine if the other person is laughing and contributing, but not if they are feeling targeted.
denying me privacy when we went shopping for clothes or while using the bathroom- step dad at times
taunting me- step dad
ridiculing me-step dad, family now
digging into painful feelings, bringing up past hurts when I'm not even thinking about them- former mentors
always looking for negative information which can be used against me - mother at times
doing the exact opposite of what you've asked her to do - me: could you be here earlier? husband
telling other people what I think so as to mess up the relationship- former mentors
showing no remorse- family members
never apologizing- family
bragging shamelessly about me to others until I'm embarrassed or even if it embarrasses me- no, I'm histrionic so bragging about me I generally have enjoyed. (as a child, after a dance recital was over and the dancers went behind the curtain, my mom tells me that i stood out there and kept bowing)
resisting attempts at autonomy- yes, at times my mother
insisting we care for someone else's needs, such as a sibling's -my mother did this to me at times
creating drama and chaos- a lady I used to know...if there wasn't drama she created it somehow (she was used to it from her own family of origin, so it felt familiar to her)
blaming or punishing me for someone else's bad behavior- sure. I was oldest, so I should KNOW BETTER
not sticking up for me, or sticking up for me when I don't want them to - yes, friends at times
acting omnipotent - I know everthing you do- former mentor
getting mad at me if I don't act as OCD as they do- former mentor
when I complain about someone (anyone) they take the other person's side, even if they don't know them or agree- former mentor
being nearly impossible to please- former mentor, husband
always being right- husband
never admitting they are wrong- husband is getting better on this one, eldest daughter still does it.
changing the rules- former mentor
taking away privileges- former mentor, husband used to till I informed him of my ADULT status
"forgetting" promises- husband, former mentors
being condescending, sarcastic, moody or "too busy" when I need something from them- former mentors, husband
exaggerating my shortcomings- family now
having selective hearing- husband, children
laughing at my pain or embarrassment or fear- children
invalidating me - saying my memories of their abuse are "crazy," "lies" "made-up" or "nonfactual"- former mentors, husband, Ndaughter
justifying their mistreatment of me - well you deserved it- pretty much EVERYONE, except a few people
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Bean, think of this...I was not actually raised in a narcissistic home, although part of it was dysfunctional at times, so when I experienced narcissistic abuse firsthand for the first time in my life, i was so bewildered and disillusioned.
I had met someone I believed was the best friend I ever had. She gave me the nicest, most costly gifts, was teaching me Bible things, invited me right into her home for quite a long stay, but turned out during the stay to be someone very unlike who I got to know online. I guess that is not real uncommon with the internet...people can hide a lot online that they can't in person. In fact, when we finally did meet, she confesses to being "shocked" at who I was as well.
When I returned from my experience trip, I wanted answers. I wanted to know WHY and HOW...why did she treat me that way. How could it have happened to ME? I consider myself a pretty wise, discerning person, yet for some reason I was not able to stop things when they began looking suspicious...I wanted that relationship almost more than life itself, I'd say.
Then, ol Vaknin put a NAME on what I'd endured and I thought, "X is a reasonable-minded person to an extent...maybe if I can SHOW her how she did these things and tell her what causes it, I'll be able to lead her to some help so she can REALLY have the freedom she only preaches about and thinks she walks in. Well, that plan backfired, with her telling ME, "look here! who is the narcissist? who won't leave ME alone? I think you need to look at yourself!" So, I began looking at my behavior which was quickly starting to look exactly like hers (this happens after prolonged exposure to it...sort of a transfer if you will)...she was RIGHT...I looked like a narcissist too, so I began working on ME and letting her flaws go. This was not good totally, cause then she got "let off the hook" for a while. Eventually, because a friend of hers was harassing me, I told that friend to leave me alone and X left me alone along with her. That was the end of things.
Meanwhile, I found the Vboard and all of you and here I am and hope to stay for a long while, offering help where people ask, giving useful advice, learning things i didn't know before, growing and rejoicing with the growth of others.
~Laura
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People who know him as he is, "quiet" would find it hard to comphrehend and accept that he was abusive, based soley on him being a "quiet" person.
Truly, can't thank you enough for highlighting this vital aspect of abuse, as no-one in my life experience has ever acknowledged it.
I understand how hard it is to get validation. With the quiet N it's hard to find evidence to convince others there is really a problem. People look for specific behaviors or patterns which prove abuse. With the quiet type, there probably aren't any physical bruises or obviously destructive behaviors. So others start assuming it's you. You must be an ingrate or maybe just a whiner. At least that's how it worked for me. A few times I tried to explain my FOO to outsiders, and was quickly "invalidated". I didn't have the language or ideas to explain what was going on, and others have their own issues to deal with. I knew something was wrong but I couldn't ever prove it.
Reframing the issue from "he was an abuser" to "I feel traumatized by the situation" was empowering for me. People may question whether a person can be labeled an "abuser", but reframed as a personal experience, its hard to argue. I feel traumatized and I believe it has roots in my FOO experience. Now instead of questioning the truth of the idea, I can search for reasons why.
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Tjr-
I agree. I think that so often it is a power issue- when one has access to power through whatever means,money, position, etc, it can influence the quality of justice. If the abuser has more power it may be overlooked or excused and the abused marginalized and punished. This is an unfortuante dynamc in custody cases, for instance, or in proofs for domestic violence. This must be fought and changed as much as possible.