Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on January 23, 2008, 01:27:54 PM
-
During the holiday season my old pain and memories seemed to subside and I got a needed reprieve from the intense emotions I had been processing this past year. Being with my family was fulfilling and warming as well as distracting.
But now, I am back home from the family visits, holiday travel and I have stepped back into my old routines again, I am beginning to feel deep pain... again.
I hurt, I feel deep anguish, rage, deep infantile and toddler jealousy that has been buried in me for so many years...it comes up and I silently scream in rage. I lay in bed, in the mornings before work, refusing to numb myself or run from the pain -- I have feel to heal --I lay there in anguish, tears streaming down my checks, I feel just like a baby when she is in rage...nothing will sooth, nothing will fix it, it just needs to be felt, expressed and experienced. My thoughts tell me that the pain will never go away. My shame tells me that I am crazy and I am mentally defective. The deep shame that accompanies my pain and growing awareness is so excruciating.
The reason I do this work is because I know that the way out is through. I know that to deeply feel and regress to earlier stages in life is to heal and move forward. I was abandoned physically and emotionally at my most precious stages in life. Rejection was and is my worst fear...being ignored is so deeply painful, it is a psychological torture.
Since I was in my early twenties I have worked through many layers of pain but I always tell myself be ready for more. But then, I feel better, it is if I have reached a pocket of sanity or peace, I feel hope and new life in me. I tell myself that it is over and I will not have to go back to that place. But then a mild to severe depression will set in and I begin to sink...then the pain surfaces, each time more painful, more intense, more deeply felt. What makes it bearable is my awareness...my ability to recognize that the pain is not present it is old past and I remind myself this is how that precious little girl felt when she was left alone abandoned to conform to her mom's projections and toxic desires...I hug a tiny little doll that has my hair color and a angry frown on her face, fists clenched. I let her hurt, I let her silently scream and I let the tears roll.
-
You are so brave,Lise. I admire you SO much. Love, Ami
-
Dear Lise,
You really encouraged me with this thread. I know the pain that you have been through and if you can heal, so can I. I was lying in bed and it hit me that I need to live from the inside out,not the outside in. Psychology calls it 'inner locus' of control.
I made up my mind that I am going to trust myself---that is it--for better or worse.
I am OK.I was always OK. The lie was that I had to hide in shame.
So many lies, Lise. I will write more later. Have to go ,now. Love You, Lise. Ami
-
Dear Lise,
You really encouraged me with this thread. I know the pain that you have been through and if you can heal, so can I. I was lying in bed and it hit me that I need to live from the inside out,not the outside in. Psychology calls it 'inner locus' of control.
I made up my mind that I am going to trust myself---that is it--for better or worse.
I am OK.I was always OK. The lie was that I had to hide in shame.
So many lies, Lise. I will write more later. Have to go ,now. Love You, Lise. Ami
Hi Ami,
Thanks for this...
Life is an inside job...or so the saying goes. If I want the outside to change, including my relationships with others, I need to first change my inside.
Facing my behaviors and asking myself what am I doing and how is it effecting others? That is and was only a start for me.
In AA we have a saying..."clean house, trust God and help others." The house cleaning I have been doing is the emotional housecleaning.
For now, or today, the issues that were hurting me yesterday have passed some. Being ignored is so deeply painful....imagine the anguish and rage a child feels when it is ignored. Yet, I am an adult, not a child so I have to act like one in the present and hold the old childish emotions and thoughts that go along with them as past and not to be acted on. Just like my post here.....yesterday I expressed deep pain and yet know one one the board responded or acknowledged...it hurt...but I am able to be rational and think that others have their needs and problems and they also can't always handle deep expressions of pain and healing.
Also, I have not been as giving to others in support and compassion here as I have been in the past because I have been quietly processing so much pain. I also know that others here have hatred and coldness to me....but the freeing thing is that it does not bother me!!!!!!! I feel OK because I know that I am OK!!!!!!!!!!
If know one responds it does not make or break my day. I focus on the people that love and understand and encourage the work I do as well the people in my life who see who I really am and know the goodness of my soul.
Peace to you Ami - thanks for caring.
Love,
Lise
-
Dear Lise,
I am sorry you are hurting. It hurts to be ignored. You are right to come to the conclusion that you did. You have intrinsic value whether one or a hundred people respond.
This is one of our hardest lessons--our intrinsic value.
The hardest part is believing it ,in our hearts.
There is a larger lesson here. Do we have value when the outside does not affirm us? I wish I could wave a magic wand and get healed on this one.(lol) Don't you,Lise? Love Ami
((((((((Lise))))))))))
-
Dear Lise,
I am sorry you are hurting. It hurts to be ignored. You are right to come to the conclusion that you did. You have intrinsic value whether one or a hundred people respond.
This is one of our hardest lessons--our intrinsic value.
The hardest part is believing it ,in our hearts.
There is a larger lesson here. Do we have value when the outside does not affirm us? I wish I could wave a magic wand and get healed on this one.(lol) Don't you,Lise? Love Ami
((((((((Lise))))))))))
Good post, thanks...YES, exactly.... value. Deep down in all of us we want and need to be deeply affirmed....deeply seen, we need to hear spoken words of love and kindness towards us...we need to know that we are loved valued and cared for for no other reason but because we are here.
If we did not get enough of this genuine love as children then we are going to have holes and go through life seeking to fill the holes left from lack of genuine love. The problem is that the way we fill the holes, addiction, relationships, denial, is self-destructive...it hurts us and others.
So....if we never got the love we needed then sometimes we just need to grieve that loss...mourn what was not...My inner child is in that mourning and the emotional healing and relief I am feeling is so much better. It is suddenly as if I can see future wholeness and what it is like to be whole..to not need anything on the outside to fill me because my bleeding wounds are getting filled with my own compassion and I am able to see me and KNOW deeply that I am valued....just because!!
Feeling better Ami...my old hurt is just old hurt...I can stand it...it is not the pain that is so painful in life it is the resistance to it that hurts more.
Love,
Lise
-
Oh Lise,
I am glad that you feel a little better. I am getting ready to write a really ,deep thread. I am resistant to doing it b/c I don't want to face OR share it, but I must.
You are facing truth. You have a "promise" from God that you will heal, and so do I.You are an inspiration to me ,today, when I want to give up. You inspire me to go forward with all the old and new pain. Thank you. I love you,Lise Ami
-
Dear ((Lise)),
I am so sorry I did not reply because of my own fears. Your post was so deep, written with grace almost poetry from the heart.
I struggle with my inept ability to express myself through text. When I am comfortable I can talk away yet I freeze at this computer so many days. Please except my sincere apology.
I heard you, I wish I could of taken away such pain you shared. As a parent I wanted to reach out and hold you, rock you as a child, so blessed and to be treasured, held and always protected.
I hear your heart and soul you bravely shared. ((wishing you healing and free of pain))
You mentioned christmas was warming etc. were toxic people from your childhood there? I'm curious how you get through it so well.
Lise you are obviously working so hard, working deep down to the core. I am beside you cheering you on as you sludge through the mud. May God always surround you with his love for you.
Sent with compassion ((Lise)) seasons
-
Seasons
You are such a wonderful addition to the board! Love Ami
-
Dear Seasons ....you are amazing...my heart fills with warmth whenever I see your name on this board. You are and have been an example of pure and sweet kind love. I sometimes have actually wondered if you have a critical or judgemental bone in your body.
Thank you for your words which for me read like poetry and helped bring some needed pain to the surface again for me.
I'm just so tired of carrying emotional baggage and I am not a parent, just me, I can afford the time and emotional state that is takes to do this work. It is hard for us and my hope is that through healing I will become a more gentle, less reactive and warmer person to care for others. People just want to be loved and accepted.
I am blessed because most of the people I spent my holiday with are non-toxic. During the holidays I spend time in one state with my uncle and aunt who took care of me for a year when I was four, they are super loving, they raised 7 of their own children who are my close cousins with whom I can tell everything too, we hug each other and can cry and no one pretends there is not an elephant standing in the living room. My aunt is a grandma now with 15 grandkids. This New Years Eve she had 13 of my adorable second cousins spend the night, the next morning her and grandpa fixed breakfast for them all like pros...they love kids they lived for them. Their house a big warm safe haven - the same house they lived in for over 30 years raising their children. Everyone returns the family house, the guys watch football and the girls play with the little girls sit around and chat. It is a slice of heaven for me.
My sister lives in another state and I spend a week with her as well she is amazing, mother of four, teacher and wonderful wife. Her an her husband are warm and good people. I am very blessed.
My only toxic relatives are my biological father and my mother of course, but I stay away from her for the holidays and instead send her gifts and cards call her...but I keep my boundaries and distance to protect myself. I spent some time with my biological father when I was visiting my aunt, he was a bit of a challenge for me this time...he was selfish as usual and acknowledging, but I just try to focus on the family that does love and loves me.
Dearest (((Seasons)))...thank you. I hope I can be there for you as wonderfully as you were for me today, if and when you are ever hurting, or for that matter, any reason.
Love,
Lise
-
I'm sorry for the pain, Lise.
It sounds overwhelming.
Sometimes I'm too weary to respond,
or don't know what to say. Or sometimes, a post seems so complete that my response feels superfluous.
(That doesn't = rejecting anyone, though...)
Sometimes when people really need responses, they'll say, I really need responses.
Then I claw myself out of my stupour and type.
with love,
Hops
-
Dear Lise,
I know that this is the obvious answer( as you do),but I think that we are searching to feel at "home' in ourselves. I am homesick ,in myself. I have looked outside for so long and it always let me down.Forgive me,if you already said this or meant this.
It is really just my need to hear myself talk.
I know where I need to go---peace and love within.THEN, I can give it out---not before. I have all these lies and distortions which must be exorcised. That is the hard part--letting them go and not believing them when they want to rear their ugly heads.
Love Ami
-
Dear Hops,
No worries...it is sort of a catch 22 with me right now meaning that being ignored is the deep issue that I am dealing with. I was ignored as a baby, left to lay in a crib or play pin, my mother was self-absorbed and usually fighting with my dad. A few times she was hospitalized for mental problems and suicide attempts. In my early, baby years, I was left alone and ignored...So people not responding is a trigger here but the realty is like you and Seasons and Ami said...people do care but sometimes the stuff we post IS too deep and not everyone can respond....I fully understand, sometimes nothing rises in us, we can't think of what to say or we just don't feel moved, it is not personal.
The catch is that as an adult I do not need or should be depending on others to affirm me or give me attention. But, if I need it then, like you said I should write -- "please take the time to respond to me." LOL :lol: However, I don't think I will do that.
My healing is leading me to not really care when I am ignored and instead to push myself be focused on others, it is freeing, feeling the old release of pain and letting go of old ideas.
Thanks Hops for your comfort and care, you are such a good soul.
Peace,
Lise
-
Dear Ami
If I may, talking with your mother, seriously, now that you know she loves you, might be the answer you need to help get rid of all the lies that you've lived. Your mother could help, being she is a psychologist, and talk about when you were too young to remember and likely come upon the time you "withdrew" and it might be before age 14. Age 14 could have been another change. Your Mother can tell you now.
You must be greatly relieved to know she is not an N, after all, and CAN love.
xx
Izzy
Hi Izzy,
Thanks for reaching out to Ami.
Question for you, did you have an N mom or an N dad?
Just because Ami's mom loves her does not mean that she was NOT an N -- there are levels of traits and behaviors.
My N mom loves me; just last night I was reflecting on the sweet little things my mom would do for me and does do for me. But if I was to start talking about my feelings or pain or my life...then all hell will break loose and my mom will become invasive, critical, over stepping her limits and twisting things. My mom's feelings are all that really matter to her. N moms are Jekyll and Hyde personalities.
Lise
-
Hello to all:
Yes, there are N-ish traits, and then there is NPD, the actual personality disorder. Narcissism is a spectrum running from some N traits (for example a "jerk" might be said to have N traits), to the full-blown disorder, which is a very serious mental disability.
All the best
Hermes
-
Hi Izzy,
Thanks for the post. Yes, Ami and my mom's were capable of love. You bring up a very good point. People here sometimes seem to get very black and white with their thinking, people are either N's or not...or they are NPD's or not...who can really tell, right... :lol:
My mom is capable of love and can be very nurturing and sweet when she is not triggered. She also suffers from Alcoholism which explains the Jekyll and Hyde part of her behavior.
Just last week I sent my older sister the piece on "Narcissistic mothers." My sister said it was 100% our mom. I told my sister that it was more realistic at 75% at her worst moments in life. My mom suffers many things and I think that a childish selfish nature is one of the things that she suffers, but at times we all have had that childish nature in us, the goal is to recognize it and work to outgrow it, myself included :D
Your experiences with N's helps you relate so well here with us victims of N trait parents.
Thank you (((Izzy))) I hope you are having a good day?
Love,
Lise
-
Another thought about N's vs NPD.
In the book "Looking In The Mirror."
She talks somewhere about foundation. That people who grow up with N parents or NPD parents and do not turn out to be N's themselves usually had a foundation of genuine love in their life for a period of time or from some loving relative.
My mom abandoned me when I was a baby, I was left in the care of a sweet loving warm hispanic lady who treated me with that special care that a baby needs, on and off, for my first year.
My mom then left me with a warm loving doctor, whom she worked with, my mom was a nurse, and the doctor and his family took care of me for a few months.
Then my mom abandoned me to my grandparents, who adored the heck out of my sister and I, in their eyes we could do no wrong.
By the time that I was 4 my mom had been coming and going and leaving me with loving care givers which turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
My aunt, who took care of me from the time I was 4 until the time I was 5, was very loving and good.
I think that the reasons above are why I turned out as OK as I am. The pain of abandonment is harsh and the healing is slow...but I am capable of love and I feel good about myself and care about others, I'd rather be a good person who suffers than a heartless person who is void of genuine emotion.
Lise
-
Lise,
The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched, they must be felt with the heart.
Helen Keller
Your heart is truly amazing. Thank you for sharing your loving family with us. I was left comforted for you. A ripple effect occurred for me, because you gave me light. I was able to shed my darkness from my FOO yesterday and be there for my family.
I let myself become visable, thank you! Through your pain you gave such hope. (((appreciated and valued)))
I feel God provided for his child, you to be loved by many. ((Lise))
"Footprints in the Sand"
by Mark Hargrave
One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was
walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the
sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene, he
noticed two sets of footprints in the sand: one
belonging to him, and the other to the Lord. When
the last scene of his life flashed before him, he
looked back at the footprints in the sand. He
noticed that many times along the path of his life
there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed
that it happened at the very lowest and saddest
times in his life. This really bothered him and he
questioned the Lord about it. "Lord, You said that
once I decided to follow you, You'd walk with me all
the way. But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life, there is only one set
of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed
you most you would leave me." The Lord replied,
"My son, My precious child, I love you and I would
never leave you. During your times of trial and
suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it
was then that I Carried You."
May God continue to watch over you with his love, seasons
-
Alcoholism could cause and on and off toxicity, with the sober and drinking times. If she has not been diagnosed, then you can call her an undiagnosed N, or a toxic person, or an on and off drunk, but if you see 75% and your sister 100% , well you are not seeing the same things, so I would think again about which disorder she might have.
My mom is an alcoholic she has been sober in AA for over 24 years now - but in AA it is said that there are those among us who have grave emotional problems and mental disorders but they too can recover if the have the capacity to be honest. My mom has the capacity to be honest but she rarely uses it. She is dry drunk, not really sober, just dry.
Some of my defects, as much as I didn't know what they were back then, rubbed off on my daughter, even though I tried to be a far better parent than mine had been (and theirs before them, I expect, for generatioms)
This honesty speaks volumes about you as a good person - your ability to admit that you are not perfect, we all have made mistakes and we all have our shortcomings.
That's when I studied up hard on N-ism as my T diagnosed him, but even then he was not personally diagnosed.
You must have felt really distressed with him. Is that why you went researching, something inside you told you that you were OK and it was him that was not?
Fear of abandonment seeems to run rampant. How great it would be to not have it, when younger and ready for a relationship. I am OK there now.
Glad to hear it!
Thanks Izzy - have a good evening!
Lise
-
Your heart is truly amazing. Thank you for sharing your loving family with us. I was left comforted for you. A ripple effect occurred for me, because you gave me light. I was able to shed my darkness from my FOO yesterday and be there for my family.
I let myself become visable, thank you! Through your pain you gave such hope. (((appreciated and valued)))
Seasons,
What do you mean by this? Can you tell me more what happenend, how were you invisible? Can you please tell the story? My curiosity is peaked.
Thank you for "footprints"...I have just this past year, being in touch with infantile memories, realized that God has been carrying me since the day I was born and I do not think that he has ever put me down -- what precious timing for your posting of this...
With love,
Lise
-
Lise,
I have contact with my older sister N, several times a week. I thought I was deflecting her N traits yet realized I got filled up and felt like I was sinking. Again
After I have talked with her I feel
empty
invisible
useless
boring
very tired
and the list goes on.
The joy you were able to share with loved ones touched me. Through pain and injury you were able to love those who were lovable.
So I decided to smile, fake it until you make it with my family (husband and children). I let go of FOOs image of me for a while and was just me.
I ended up enjoying the simplest things, letting myself be in their company. Dh holding my hand, leaning over and giving me a kiss.
Cuddled with my d and watched a sweet movie, with joy in my heart. Chatted with my oldest about her senior year agenda. As she was full of excitement, I was able to be their for her...........
With out the shadow of darkness I felt from my sister. I wanted to just go in bed and cover myself from the world because I must be worthless.
In my heart I know this is not true, yet gosh she is good at projecting herself onto me. She reminds me of a vampire sucking the life out of me.
Yet she can be charming, kind when she needs me.
She called late last night and left a message. She was alone her son was gone for the night. I heard her voice, she sounded lonely,
maybe a bit uncomfortable being alone and wanted me to call her back.
I didn't call back. I felt a bit guilty but tried to push it aside knowing she was o.k.
I'm trying to find a balance of little contact. I struggle with this. I need to build a stronger shield and not let her rob me of so many blessings I do have.
Thanks for asking. I hope it made a little bit of sense. seasons
-
I didn't call back. I felt a bit guilty but tried to push it aside knowing she was o.k.
I'm trying to find a balance of little contact. I struggle with this. I need to build a stronger shield and not let her rob me of so many blessings I do have.
oh GOOD for you Leah!! :D
Imo, it is not mean to not return a phone call immediately. Or an email.
I think the devices we live with merge too easily with our difficulty in setting boundaries out of respect for our own health and serenity. An N intrudes, we roll over and allow it. A phone rings, we roll over and answer it. An N emails, we start typing.
WE HAVE A CHOICE.
It is not evil or wrong or unkind to choose not to respond when electricity sets off a bell in our house!!
A telephone is a bell ringing machine that will also allow you to talk and listen if you choose to pick up the handset!!!
That is all it is! It is a machine!
A person who makes a telephone call does not have the automatic right to the private eardrum space of the person who lives in the building that contains the bell-ringing machine! The person in whose building the bell-ringing machine is located OWNS the bell-ringing machine! The bell-ringing machine (or the typing machine) does not own the person!
Really, I swear this is a very powerful opinion! It was a revelation to me!
Happy to share it! :D :D :D
(It was another revelation to me when a friend in grad school frequently didn't answer her door, even when she could see us through the glass. Once, I gently asked her why. She said, "Oh. I was thinking."
I loved her dearly, and vice versa. So neither of us ever took it personally. She was the owner of the door! She could choose to move it on its hinges to open it! She could choose to not!) :lol: :lol: :lol:
(Going a bit nuts here, but it's a favorite subject.)
xo
Hops
-
Gab, I echo Ami - you are very, very brave. I have the same beliefs as you - the best way out is always thru, this current pain does not anchor in the present, it is a product of the past, when I was not strong enough to survive those terrible feelings. So my older self is now strong enough to process them, but the pain is damned intense. It's like riding waves, IMO. Body surfing, no board, just your bare skin against the pain. Letting that little girl cry and moan is the highest mark of respect for her and what she went thru. Isn't it amazing that she trusts you enough to let you see her pain? Mine took years before she trusted me enough to allow that pain to be palpable.
Best to you. (((((Gab)))))
towrite
-
Thank you Seasons,
This made so much sense as well as it really helped me. Your feelings described my feelings with my old N saint therapist - to a tee! I do not think that I have heard yet expressed the way you did the exact way I felt after any interaction or conversation:
After I have talked with her I feel
empty
invisible
useless
boring
very tired
and the list goes on.
I could also ad that I felt subtly hated and humiliated too.
You are smart to "fake it until you make it." My heart feels compassion in that you have to exert so much energy in order to be with family....((((seasons)))). You must return home feeling exhausted?
Yes, seasons, build that stronger shield and don't let her rob you. Screw guilt! It is not your fault that she is who she is, you did not cause it and you do NOT have to fix it, I'm sure you know this already but you are a real person with real feelings and it is hard to let go of those we love no matter how toxic they are.
Just this past year I have cut off most contact with my N mom. She is too toxic for me. As I said in my earlier posts that I spent my holiday time, this past Christmas, with family other than my N mom. My mom gets very angry and annoyed with me for not spending the holidays with her. My stomach feels achy and sad to see her so a lone through the holdiays, just her and her husband. But I also know that she is a manipulator and an actress. She uses the smoke screens and mirrors to try to project and image of helpless victimless when in reality she is strong and resourceful, fully capable of taking care of her self.
In the beginning it was really hard to cut off contact or minimize it with her. But as time has gone by and I just keep my conversations short and sweet, she is adjusting and accepting. Before, it is as if she is and was a 2 year old throwing a tantrum for attention, when I stopped giving it to her all hell broke loose but the more I have stayed my ground the more she has mellowed and had to accept that she is just not going to get what she wants, no matter what, her unhappy rages only serve to make her unhappy---gosh this is a 65 year old woman I'm talking about!
I hope some of this helps?
In my heart I know this is not true, yet gosh she is good at projecting herself onto me. She reminds me of a vampire sucking the life out of me.
The projection is worst. My N saint T used to do it to me too. One thing I hated was the negative facial expressions in response to my sharing or expressions in which she would have been projecting herself onto me. Being that she was a T she used to project that I was doing things that were good just for N supply or that I was the deeply envious one...those projections hurt the most.
Love Seasons - I hope you are having a good day.
Blessings,
Lise
-
Gab, I echo Ami - you are very, very brave. I have the same beliefs as you - the best way out is always thru, this current pain does not anchor in the present, it is a product of the past, when I was not strong enough to survive those terrible feelings. So my older self is now strong enough to process them, but the pain is damned intense. It's like riding waves, IMO. Body surfing, no board, just your bare skin against the pain. Letting that little girl cry and moan is the highest mark of respect for her and what she went thru. Isn't it amazing that she trusts you enough to let you see her pain? Mine took years before she trusted me enough to allow that pain to be palpable.
Best to you. (((((Gab)))))
towrite
Dear towrite,
Thank you so much for your words of strength and encouragement. It was a comfort to read this.
Lise