Another level of rage, pain & anguish -- going deeper into the desert...

[Gabben]

Hi Izzy,


Thanks for the post. Yes, Ami and my mom's were capable of love. You bring up a very good point. People here sometimes seem to get very black and white with their thinking, people are either N's or not...or they are NPD's or not...who can really tell, right...

My mom is capable of love and can be very nurturing and sweet when she is not triggered. She also suffers from Alcoholism which explains the Jekyll and Hyde part of her behavior.

Just last week I sent my older sister the piece on "Narcissistic mothers." My sister said it was 100% our mom. I told my sister that it was more realistic at  75% at her worst moments in life. My mom suffers many things and I think that a childish selfish nature is one of the things that she suffers, but at times we all have had that childish nature in us, the goal is to recognize it and work to outgrow it, myself included


Your experiences with N's helps you relate so well here with us victims of N trait parents.

Thank you (((Izzy))) I hope you are having a good day?

Love,
Lise

[Gabben]

Another thought about N's vs NPD.

In the book "Looking In The Mirror."


She talks somewhere about foundation. That people who grow up with N parents or NPD parents and do not turn out to be N's themselves usually had a foundation of genuine love in their life for a period of time or from some loving relative.

My mom abandoned me when I was a baby, I was left in the care of a sweet loving warm hispanic lady who treated me with that special care that a baby needs, on and off, for my first year.

My mom then left me with a warm loving doctor, whom she worked with, my mom was a nurse, and the doctor and his family took care of me for a few months.

Then my mom abandoned me to my grandparents, who adored the heck out of my sister and I, in their eyes we could do no wrong.

By the time that I was 4 my mom had been coming and going and leaving me with loving care givers which turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

My aunt, who took care of me from the time I was 4 until the time I was 5, was very loving and good.

I think that the reasons above are why I turned out as OK as I am. The pain of abandonment is harsh and the healing is slow...but I am capable of love and I feel good about myself and care about others, I'd rather be a good person who suffers than a heartless person who is void of genuine emotion.

Lise

[seasons]

Lise,

The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched, they must be felt with the heart.
Helen Keller

Your heart is truly amazing. Thank you for sharing your loving family with us. I was left comforted for you. A ripple effect occurred for me, because you gave me light. I was able to shed my darkness from my FOO yesterday and be there for my family.
I let myself become visable, thank you! Through your pain you gave such hope. (((appreciated and valued)))

I feel God provided for his child, you to be loved by many. ((Lise))

"Footprints in the Sand"
by Mark Hargrave

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was
walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the
sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene, he
noticed two sets of footprints in the sand: one
belonging to him, and the other to the Lord. When
the last scene of his life flashed before him, he
looked back at the footprints in the sand. He
noticed that many times along the path of his life
there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed
that it happened at the very lowest and saddest
times in his life. This really bothered him and he
questioned the Lord about it. "Lord, You said that
once I decided to follow you, You'd walk with me all
the way. But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life, there is only one set
of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed
you most you would leave me." The Lord replied,
"My son, My precious child, I love you and I would
never leave you. During your times of trial and
suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it
was then that I Carried You."

                                                        May God continue to watch over you with his love, seasons

[Gabben]

Alcoholism could cause and on and off toxicity, with the sober and drinking times. If she has not been diagnosed, then you can call her an undiagnosed N, or a toxic person, or an on and off drunk, but if you see 75% and your sister 100% , well you are not seeing the same things, so I would think again about which disorder she might have.

My mom is an alcoholic she has been sober in AA for over 24 years now - but in AA it is said that there are those among us who have grave emotional problems and mental disorders but they too can recover if the have the capacity to be honest. My mom has the capacity to be honest but she rarely uses it. She is dry drunk, not really sober, just dry.

Some of my defects, as much as I didn't know what they were back then, rubbed off on my daughter, even though I tried to be a far better parent than mine had been (and theirs before them, I expect, for generatioms)

This honesty speaks volumes about you as a good person - your ability to admit that you are not perfect, we all have made mistakes and we all have our shortcomings.

That's when I studied up hard on N-ism as my T diagnosed him, but even then he was not personally diagnosed.

You must have felt really distressed with him. Is that why you went researching, something inside you told you that you were OK and it was him that was not?

Fear of abandonment seeems to run rampant. How great it would be to not have it, when younger and ready for a relationship. I am OK there now.

Glad to hear it!

Thanks Izzy - have a good evening!

Lise

[Gabben]

Your heart is truly amazing. Thank you for sharing your loving family with us. I was left comforted for you. A ripple effect occurred for me, because you gave me light. I was able to shed my darkness from my FOO yesterday and be there for my family.
I let myself become visable, thank you! Through your pain you gave such hope. (((appreciated and valued)))

Seasons,

What do you mean by this? Can you tell me more what happenend, how were you invisible? Can you please tell the story? My curiosity is peaked.


Thank you for "footprints"...I have just this past year, being in touch with infantile memories, realized that God has been carrying me since the day I was born and I do not think that he has ever put me down -- what precious timing for your posting of this...


With love,
Lise

[seasons]

Lise,

I have contact with my older sister N, several times a week. I thought I was deflecting her N traits yet realized I got filled up and felt like I was sinking. Again

After I have talked with her I feel
empty
invisible
useless
boring
very tired
and the list goes on.
The joy you were able to share with loved ones touched me. Through pain and injury you were able to love those who were lovable.

So I decided to smile, fake it until you make it with my family (husband and children). I let go of FOOs image of me for a while and was just me.
I ended up enjoying the simplest things, letting myself be in their company. Dh holding my hand, leaning over and giving me a kiss.
Cuddled with my d and watched a sweet movie, with joy in my heart. Chatted with my oldest about her senior year agenda. As she was full of excitement, I was able to be their for her...........
With out the shadow of darkness I felt from my sister. I wanted to just go in bed and cover myself from the world because I must be worthless.
In my heart I know this is not true, yet gosh she is good at projecting herself onto me. She reminds me of a vampire sucking the life out of me.

Yet she can be charming, kind when she needs me.
She called late last night and left a message. She was alone her son was gone for the night. I heard her voice, she sounded lonely,
maybe a bit uncomfortable being alone and wanted me to call her back.
I didn't call back. I felt a bit guilty but tried to push it aside knowing she was o.k.

I'm trying to find a balance of little contact. I struggle with this. I need to build a stronger shield and not let her rob me of so many blessings I do have.

Thanks for asking. I hope it made a little bit of sense.              seasons

[Hopalong]

I didn't call back. I felt a bit guilty but tried to push it aside knowing she was o.k.

I'm trying to find a balance of little contact. I struggle with this. I need to build a stronger shield and not let her rob me of so many blessings I do have.

oh GOOD for you Leah!! 

Imo, it is not mean to not return a phone call immediately. Or an email.

I think the devices we live with merge too easily with our difficulty in setting boundaries out of respect for our own health and serenity. An N intrudes, we roll over and allow it. A phone rings, we roll over and answer it. An N emails, we start typing.

WE HAVE A CHOICE.

It is not evil or wrong or unkind to choose not to respond when electricity sets off a bell in our house!!

A telephone is a bell ringing machine that will also allow you to talk and listen if you choose to pick up the handset!!!

That is all it is! It is a machine!

A person who makes a telephone call does not have the automatic right to the private eardrum space of the person who lives in the building that contains the bell-ringing machine! The person in whose building the bell-ringing machine is located OWNS the bell-ringing machine! The bell-ringing machine (or the typing machine) does not own the person!

Really, I swear this is a very powerful opinion! It was a revelation to me!
Happy to share it! 

(It was another revelation to me when a friend in grad school frequently didn't answer her door, even when she could see us through the glass. Once, I gently asked her why. She said, "Oh. I was thinking."

I loved her dearly, and vice versa. So neither of us ever took it personally. She was the owner of the door! She could choose to move it on its hinges to open it! She could choose to not!) 

(Going a bit nuts here, but it's a favorite subject.)
xo
Hops

[towrite]

Gab, I echo Ami - you are very, very brave. I have the same beliefs as you - the best way out is always thru, this current pain does not anchor in the present, it is a product of the past, when I was not strong enough to survive those terrible feelings. So my older self is now strong enough to process them, but the pain is damned intense. It's like riding waves, IMO. Body surfing, no board, just your bare skin against the pain. Letting that little girl cry and moan is the highest mark of respect for her and what she went thru. Isn't it amazing that she trusts you enough to let you see her pain? Mine took years before she trusted me enough to allow that pain to be palpable.

Best to you.   (((((Gab)))))

towrite

[Gabben]

Thank you Seasons,

This made so much sense as well as it really helped me. Your feelings described my feelings with my old N saint therapist - to a tee! I do not think that I have heard yet expressed the way you did the exact way I felt after any interaction or conversation:

After I have talked with her I feel
empty
invisible
useless
boring
very tired
and the list goes on.

I could also ad that I felt subtly hated and humiliated too.

You are smart to "fake it until you make it." My heart feels compassion in that you have to exert so much energy in order to be with family....((((seasons)))). You must return home feeling exhausted?

Yes, seasons, build that stronger shield and don't let her rob you. Screw guilt! It is not your fault that she is who she is, you did not cause it and you do NOT have to fix it, I'm sure you know this already but you are a real person with real feelings and it is hard to let go of those we love no matter how toxic they are.

Just this past year I have cut off most contact with my N mom. She is too toxic for me. As I said in my earlier posts that I spent my holiday time, this past Christmas, with family other than my N mom. My mom gets very angry and annoyed with me for not spending the holidays with her. My stomach feels achy and sad to see her so a lone through the holdiays, just her and her husband. But I also know that she is a manipulator and an actress. She uses the smoke screens and mirrors to try to project and image of helpless victimless when in reality she is strong and resourceful, fully capable of taking care of her self.

In the beginning it was really hard to cut off contact or minimize it with her. But as time has gone by and I just keep my conversations short and sweet, she is adjusting and accepting. Before, it is as if she is and was a 2 year old throwing a tantrum for attention, when I stopped giving it to her all hell broke loose but the more I have stayed my ground the more she has mellowed and had to accept that she is just not going to get what she wants, no matter what, her unhappy rages only serve to make her unhappy---gosh this is a 65 year old woman I'm talking about!

I hope some of this helps?

In my heart I know this is not true, yet gosh she is good at projecting herself onto me. She reminds me of a vampire sucking the life out of me.

The projection is worst. My N saint T used to do it to me too. One thing I hated was the negative facial expressions in response to my sharing or expressions in which she would have been projecting herself onto me. Being that she was a T she used to project that I was doing things that were good just for N supply or that I was the deeply envious one...those projections hurt the most.

Love Seasons - I hope  you are having a good day.

Blessings,
Lise

[Gabben]

Gab, I echo Ami - you are very, very brave. I have the same beliefs as you - the best way out is always thru, this current pain does not anchor in the present, it is a product of the past, when I was not strong enough to survive those terrible feelings. So my older self is now strong enough to process them, but the pain is damned intense. It's like riding waves, IMO. Body surfing, no board, just your bare skin against the pain. Letting that little girl cry and moan is the highest mark of respect for her and what she went thru. Isn't it amazing that she trusts you enough to let you see her pain? Mine took years before she trusted me enough to allow that pain to be palpable.

Best to you.   (((((Gab)))))

towrite

Dear towrite,

Thank you so much for your words of strength and encouragement. It was a comfort to read this.

Lise