Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: SilverLining on February 10, 2008, 06:38:42 PM
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Coming to terms with my family experience was difficult for many years because my siblings and I could not identify many instances of outright abuse. When we had something in mind, it was always easy to rationalize it away as just a bad day or a mistake. My parents usually didn't hit, yell, name call, deprive us of food, or otherwise appear to be like the abusers in the movies. Yet it was clear things were not good and the offspring have all suffered from depression and other symptoms.
I have been thinking lately about things I did not experience that might add up to a pattern of "abusive omission". I have making a list of things I rarely or never experienced in my FOO life. Here are a few.
-Discussion of issues or problems from my point of view.
-Compliments (almost never happened)
-Guidance on spiritual matters (I was taken to church weekly but otherwise no discussion or consideration)
-Reciprocal conversations.
-Acceptance of my emotions, anger, objections to their behaviors. They were never wrong.
-Interest in any of my interests or activities.
-Help in developing skills. It was left almost entirely up to the schools
-Feedback on development of knowledge, ability, or skills. Report cards from school were about it.
-Activities of mutual interest. Activities with the parents involved their interests. My own interests were generally pursued alone.
The FOO appeared "normal" but I am coming to see there was very little positive depth. It was a good show for the neighbors but scratch the surface and the truth, at least as I experienced it, was far from good.
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Same here, tjr... point by point, straight down the line.
In fact, it never occurred to me back then that it was okay - sheesh, not okay, but desireable - for me to even have a point of view.
I guess they thought that we'd just pick all this stuff up by osmosis... or a mind meld of some sort.
I've grown up alongside my own children... and experienced more of a childhood with them than I ever had before, complete with actual talking, back and forth, in conversational form... amazing. My parents have no clue. They are only accustomed to kids behaving like pets, I guess.
Good thing we're never too old to learn!
Carolyn
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I can relate Tjr, You have written a very insightful post!
Thankyou:)
X bella
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Yes. I think I will print your post and give it to my mom-basically tell her that I never thought about it but this is how it is.
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Dear TJR
Thank you for your most insightful posting, which has had quite an impact.
"Abuse by Omission" I can so resonate with.
Never thought of it like that, but in a nutshell, that is part and parcel of my life experience.
Truly amazing.
Leah x
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me too Tjr....... I work very hard at accepting these dysfunctional behaviours as "normal" I still find it difficult to stay connected to others and have a deep belief that nobody will ever be there for me and I have to battle everything alone. My experience on this board is that there are supportive people in the world who are willing to help but I have to work very hard at remembering this. I think the only person I ever felt really connected with was my daughter and the loss of her was so painful. My expectation is that if I do make a connection it will be met with disappointment and so have built a firm wall around myself. The up side of this is that I feel safe the down side is that I feel terribly alone. Practising at letting the wall transform into some sort of net that leaves the good things in and filters the bad.
I think the experience of being included in a "good enough" family must be such a wonderful grounding for a child, knowing withouth thinking that they are worthy. It feels like I have spent my life trying to know some kind of self worth it is hard battle but all is not lost.
axa
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me too Tjr....... I still find it difficult to stay connected to others and have a deep belief that nobody will ever be there for me and I have to battle everything alone.
Hi Axa. I think that's a great insight. You've inspired me to start a new list: "Lies I learned in childhood about myself, life, relationships". By going through these conditioning processes, day after day after day, we start deeply believing the problem is in us, or just "normal" disappointments of life. Now the challenge is to back up, see the conditioning, and then work on changing our own approach.
Thanks everybody for the feedback and validation. :) As suggested in my list, it's kind of a novel experience for me
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Hi trj,
You summarized the experience very well. I'm working on changing my approach. Thank you.
tt
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Now the challenge is to back up, see the conditioning, and then work on changing our own approach.
Yes! Changing our approach is the Key!
So glad you are here with us on board, TJR
Leah x
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-Discussion of issues or problems from my point of view.
-Compliments (almost never happened)
-Guidance on spiritual matters (I was taken to church weekly but otherwise no discussion or consideration)
-Reciprocal conversations.
-Acceptance of my emotions, anger, objections to their behaviors. They were never wrong.
-Interest in any of my interests or activities.
-Help in developing skills. It was left almost entirely up to the schools
-Feedback on development of knowledge, ability, or skills. Report cards from school were about it.
-Activities of mutual interest. Activities with the parents involved their interests. My own interests were generally pursued alone.
The FOO appeared "normal" but I am coming to see there was very little positive depth. It was a good show for the neighbors but scratch the surface and the truth, at least as I experienced it, was far from good.
TJR,
Thank you so much for this!
As I was reading I was thinking about N saint and then my mom.
N saint never complimented me, interesting. Never asked me how I felt, not once can I even recall that. Of course my mom only asked me how I felt when she had an invested interest.
Never can I recall feeling safe enough to express my outrage or anger or disagreement with mom -- never.
-Help in developing skills. It was left almost entirely up to the schools
My mom would not and never did take interest in anything I did in school. It was if I was all on my own.
-Feedback on development of knowledge, ability, or skills. Report cards from school were about it.
I learned in 1st grade that I had better get good grades or my mom will blow up at me. From then out I always made sure I was at least above average -- out of fear because I knew the only feedback I would ever get was negative. If I did do something well, it went unnoticed.
This is helpful stuff. It would be good for me to take it to my therapist and pull up some more specific memories and talk to her about how I felt in relation to all of the list.
I'll get to that after I work through this intense layer of abandonment pain.
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I relate to your post very much tjr. For so many years I would say to myself 'why can't he say something nice about me?' Without knowing anything of NPD it was absolutely a mystery, a terrible mystery. And I'm not a person who avoided the subject. I bearded the lion in his den many times. I directly addressed the situation again and again. Sometimes there were rages, sometimes the subject changed to my shortcomings, sometimes to pity for him, and sometimes he thought of ways to 'say something nice' that were actually demeaning or patronizing. Or a way to 'show support' that was actually undermining.
It is a huge weight off my mind and heart to understand that it was not me. I have given up so many aspirations, dreams, hopes, initiatives, efforts and desires over the years because of the extreme undermining and I've held myself completely responsible for these shortcomings and lacks in me, but I've been flying blind and trying to salvage or redeem this relationship the whole time.
Now I understand that so much of my development was seized in the narcissistic double bind, or even quadruple bind! Here's the madness: Nothing I would like, involve myself with or devote effort to could be worthy, but quitting was shameful, and setbacks or mediocrity was contemptible, and success was ignored. Talk about no win.
Of all things, I think these interactions and omissions have haunted me the most over the years. Combined with the sabotage of my physical safety - it was the omissions that really chipped away at my denial and wall of idealization. It was the sheer existence of evidence staring me in the face and the questions of why why why.
I just want to walk away from the relationship. That's just where I am. All this time I tried to prove my good faith in choosing him over myself and it has been BS all this time. I'm just exhausted with it and now I see all my skills and learning deficits and areas of neglect of cultivating my own life. And I just want to walk away.
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I learned in 1st grade that I had better get good grades or my mom will blow up at me. From then out I always made sure I was at least above average -- out of fear because I knew the only feedback I would ever get was negative. If I did do something well, it went unnoticed.
Hi Gabben. I'm glad the list has been helpful. I sure relate to the grade thing. My parents made a great show of being concerned with grades, without any consideration of what they really meant to me or my future. Grades were a trophy to be absorbed into their own "selves". I think it's a great window into the N family process. They convince themselves they are showing great concern for their children by focusing on grades, while there is no substance at all to the concern. I don't think I ever heard a comment relating grades back to me.
Their concern about grades did diminish as I got older, but another problem was approaching for them if my grades were too good: I might then want to go to an expensive college, and that wasn't in their interests. Even though my grades were certainly good enough for college, they almost completely avoided the topic.
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My parents made a great show of being concerned with grades, without any consideration of what they really meant to me or my future. Grades were a trophy to be absorbed into their own "selves". I think it's a great window into the N family process. They convince themselves they are showing great concern for their children by focusing on grades, while there is no substance at all to the concern. I don't think I ever heard a comment relating grades back to me.
Again, same here. This is such a great thread, tjr... again, thank you.
And same with what Lise said about there never being any compliments... or supportive encouragement of any kind, really... only a sense of expectations of perfection, with no acknowledgement that happiness, joy, satisfaction should figure into the equation somehow.
There was some sense of promise... but it was a promise of being special - IF - ....
and the list of requirements which followed that IF was as long as your arm.
Impossible. That's what I remember feeling. This is impossible. I can never measure up.
Iphi, about this:
Here's the madness: Nothing I would like, involve myself with or devote effort to could be worthy, but quitting was shameful, and setbacks or mediocrity was contemptible, and success was ignored. Talk about no win.
That is it, exactly. Because even if N truly did consider the object of your attempts/efforts worthy and desireable, he will not acknowledge that UNLESS the whole thing was his idea... and then, if you do well, he will hate you for surpassing him (unless you somehow allow him to take full credit for your accomplishment).
Iphi, you wrote:
I just want to walk away from the relationship. That's just where I am. All this time
I tried to prove my good faith in choosing him over myself and it has been BS all this time. I'm just exhausted with it and now I see all my skills and learning deficits and areas of neglect of cultivating my own life. And I just want to walk away.
This is a good thing to see, Iph... just don't let it be ALL you see of yourself, because there is so much more to you. You are lovely.
Carolyn
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Thanks for this thread tjr. These are the things that people raised by non-Ns can't even imagine.
I am making a list of my memories and re-imagining them as though I had non-N parents who could provide those things that I needed - those things in your list. It really feels good to get them in my memory-imagination.
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Iphi,
I'm so sorry.
I know what you mean ... it's like hitting a wall.
You just finally accept that it's brick, not a flowering hedge.
It's a terrible disappointment to know your efforts are in vain.
I hope you can soon envision places and pursuits and people that will be rewarding and affirming for you.
You do deserve it, richly...
love to you,
Hops
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Hey thanks for your nurturing and encouraging words Carolyn and Hops. I so much root for the thriving and growth of each of you and everyone here.
Carolyn wrote:
That is it, exactly. Because even if N truly did consider the object of your attempts/efforts worthy and desireable, he will not acknowledge that UNLESS the whole thing was his idea... and then, if you do well, he will hate you for surpassing him (unless you somehow allow him to take full credit for your accomplishment).
yes and will hate/envy the child for behaving not like an extension of the N but an independent being. They will sabotage that success, refuse to acknowledge it, call it selfish, and/or worthless and/or bankrupt for some reason, change the subject to a putative failure - do anything BUT acknowledge, appreciate, recognize. It may be that the N brags of it to others to collect supply from the others, but you will never hear any nice thing the others said of you, not from the N. I never have!
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A few more items from my working list:
-A feeling of security. The cultivated perception was scarcity and impending disaster, which then was an excuse for not addressing the needs of the children.
-Memory and continuity. If by chance I got a point across about my "concerns" (my real self?), I could be assured it would be quickly forgotten in favor of more pressing personal problems for them. It was and is like dealing with perpetual strangers.
-Age/ development appropriate interaction. As a child, I had to endure monologues about their problems. But then in my 20's there was a weird reversal and they started "parenting by mail". I'd get letters in the mail telling me what my problems were and giving unsolicited advice. Example: At age 25 I received a letter from my father explaining his religious philosophy, after 25 years of not saying a word. No invitation to a dialogue, of course (It's easy to be a good parent when you don't have to actually interact).
-Apologies for their mistakes or behavior
Thanks again everybody for the feedback and validation. I'm glad the idea and list have been useful. The feedback seems to lead me to more and more connections. Things that have been grating on me for years finally start making some sense.
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Hey thanks for your nurturing and encouraging words Carolyn and Hops. I so much root for the thriving and growth of each of you and everyone here.
Carolyn wrote:
That is it, exactly. Because even if N truly did consider the object of your attempts/efforts worthy and desireable, he will not acknowledge that UNLESS the whole thing was his idea... and then, if you do well, he will hate you for surpassing him (unless you somehow allow him to take full credit for your accomplishment).
yes and will hate/envy the child for behaving not like an extension of the N but an independent being. They will sabotage that success, refuse to acknowledge it, call it selfish, and/or worthless and/or bankrupt for some reason, change the subject to a putative failure - do anything BUT acknowledge, appreciate, recognize. It may be that the N brags of it to others to collect supply from the others, but you will never hear any nice thing the others said of you, not from the N. I never have!
I so identify, when I excelled and passed my entrance exams; it was all about father, he boasted to everyone as to how he had produced a daughter who had excelled.
But, in the home, things was altogether different, I remained "maude the mule" with no recognition, quite the reverse in fact, and I do now believe so strongly, that Envy was the root, as in my recent envy thread, as he withdrew support, ridiculed me, and did all he could to sabotage.
Did not make any sense, then!
Leah x
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It was and is like dealing with perpetual strangers.
Well PUT, tjr...
And Leah, envy, ugh. I think that's true.
I heard someone saying that some people fear there's never enough love to go around.
But it's like air.
love
Hops
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And Leah, envy, ugh. I think that's true.
I heard someone saying that some people fear there's never enough love to go around.
But it's like air.
Hi Hops,
Envy is an ugly word isn't it. Truly, not one of my favorites.
Yes, that is how I perceive love, as the air, moving around the world.
Love is so simple.
Love, Leah
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Just wanted to bump this thread topic up for Violet since this FOO stuff came up in recent discussion on another thread.
((Violet)),
Here is the thread I was talking about except it was not tt who started it was tjr.
Hope this gives some insight.
Gabben
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Thank you for this post, tjr. Much of this resonates with me. My FOO also had zero positive depth.
I also felt like I was a perpetual stranger growing up in my family. I only got positive attention from my mother if I was in a weak state like showing showing incompetence or unhappiness. That seemed to please her. She was covert about it, but I could always tell she was relaxed and happiest when I was unhappy or struggling. I somehow knew that it was not okay to excel at anything other than getting good grades or to be too happy. I get anxious to this day if I start to feel happy and have difficulty being comfortable enough with feelings of happiness or self confidence to really allow myself to experience those states fully. I am always surprised to get positive feedback from others and yet I get it often from friends and professionally. I just don't ever really believe it.
The thing about grades and college is interesting. My grades were always important because it reflected on her parenting (which was actually nonexisent), but no one spoke to me about college despite the fact that I made the highest SAT score in my class. Classmates started asking me about my plans. I didn't know I was supposed to be planning anything until you had to fill in the SAT forms and list schools you might apply to. My parents never talked to me about college. I lived in a college town so I put down the local state school and ended up applying there late and just started going kind of as an afterthought. It was a weird time.
Thank you for posting this.
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The thing about grades and college is interesting. My grades were always important because it reflected on her parenting (which was actually nonexisent), but no one spoke to me about college despite the fact that I made the highest SAT score in my class. Classmates started asking me about my plans. I didn't know I was supposed to be planning anything until you had to fill in the SAT forms and list schools you might apply to. My parents never talked to me about college. I lived in a college town so I put down the local state school and ended up applying there late and just started going kind of as an afterthought. It was a weird time.
Hi free thinker. I'm glad you found the thread useful. Other than superficial details, my pre college experience seems identical to yours. I had high aptitude and test scores starting in 4th grade. But neither of my parents ever tied these scores back to any consideration of my future. The scores were like a "performance" I was putting on for their benefit. I don't remember any of the typical discussions children in other families seem to have about what they might want to be when they grow up.
The only discussion of college I recall was a weird speech my father made about college funding being above and beyond his parental duties. So at the last minute I got into a nearby inexpensive state school. My life did start improving drastically after I got out of the house and into college. If only college could have been 10 years I might've more fully recovered from the FOO a lot sooner :)
I thought at the time I was freely making choices, but now I am getting a better view of how all my choices have been conditioned by the FOO experience.
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Hi free thinker. I'm glad you found the thread useful. Other than superficial details, my pre college experience seems identical to yours. I had high aptitude and test scores starting in 4th grade. But neither of my parents ever tied these scores back to any consideration of my future. The scores were like a "performance" I was putting on for their benefit. I don't remember any of the typical discussions children in other families seem to have about what they might want to be when they grow up.
The only discussion of college I recall was a weird speech my father made about college funding being above and beyond his parental duties. So at the last minute I got into a nearby inexpensive state school. My life did start improving drastically after I got out of the house and into college. If only college could have been 10 years I might've more fully recovered from the FOO a lot sooner :)
I thought at the time I was freely making choices, but now I am getting a better view of how all my choices have been conditioned by the FOO experience.
Hi tjr. :) I find your comments about thinking you were freely making choices very interesting. I am 41 years old and I am still struggling with FOO conditioning and sorting out all the many ways I have been affected by my upbringing. As far as college goes, I remember having no clue about a major and waiting until the last possible minute to declare one. Then I worked for a year in the first job I could find and went back to graduate school. I still picked a program without a clear feeling that I was making the right choice and again went to the cheap state school to get my master's degree. To this day I am intrigued with other careers and wonder if there is a "right" path out there that I missed because I never had any help sorting through what would really suit me career-wise. I would LOVE the opportunity (need to win that lottery -lol) to be a professional student and just learn all sorts of different things. I loved college life.
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Hi tjr. :) I find your comments about thinking you were freely making choices very interesting. I am 41 years old and I am still struggling with FOO conditioning and sorting out all the many ways I have been affected by my upbringing. As far as college goes, I remember having no clue about a major and waiting until the last possible minute to declare one. Then I worked for a year in the first job I could find and went back to graduate school. I still picked a program without a clear feeling that I was making the right choice and again went to the cheap state school to get my master's degree. To this day I am intrigued with other careers and wonder if there is a "right" path out there that I missed because I never had any help sorting through what would really suit me career-wise. I would LOVE the opportunity (need to win that lottery -lol) to be a professional student and just learn all sorts of different things. I loved college life.
Hi FT. It again looks very similar to my experience. I've often felt sort of a like a billiard ball that was set in motion by the FOO and then bounced around madly for 25 years. Undergrad school was great and I was so stunned by getting positive feedback from authority figures it led me to do grad school immediately after, which didn't turn out well. Eventually I did go back and do a Masters degree.
I still don't really know what I want to do when I grow up :D. I feel like I am going through an adolescent phase I didn't get to experience while doing my parentified role in the FOO.
I suppose it's all for the best in the end, but I still wonder what life would have been like with more emotionally supportive parents. I observe other parents with children and am stunned to see them providing positive feedback and encouragement. This kind of thing started getting me thinking about "omissions" in my early life.