Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: teartracks on February 20, 2008, 02:34:49 AM
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Hi everyone,
On the relative preponderance of empathic sorrow and its relation to commonsense morality
Edward B. Royzman, , a and Rahul
Abstract
Empathy is a nominally neutral term: in principle, the affective tone of empathic concern may be either negative (insofar as the relevant experience is that of apprehending and sharing in another's aversive state) or positive (i.e., apprehending and sharing in another's joy). Yet, we propose (Section 1) that, contrary to this standard conception of empathy as a potentially bivalent, generalized disposition towards emotional perspective-taking, in actuality, negative empathic responses, as a rule, (a) are more common, (b) are more differentiated, and (c) span a broader range of human relationships than their positive counterparts. Furthermore, we suggest that, barring certain types of privileged relationships, a failure to be empathetically aroused by another's good fortune is subject to far less severe (if any) social disapproval than the failure to share in another's aversive state. In Section 2, we posit that the negativity bias evident in the nature of our empathic concern may well be at the base of the negative–positive asymmetry found in the structure of commonsense morality, particularly as it expresses itself in the view that the furtherance of another's good has a greater moral claim on us in its negative form (e.g., the relief of suffering) than in its positive form (the promotion of “enjoyment”). We conclude by asking whether this moral (and the underlying empathic) asymmetry warrants our normative concern and we suggest that there are at least two reasons to think otherwise.
tt
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I see, tt!
What do you think of this:
If fear is one possible cause of a lack of feeling empathy (or being able to sustain empathy) for another in an aversive state...
and if that fear is based on a deep reluctance to imagine self in a similar aversive state...
is that not basically a simple matter of selfishness?
And if envy is on 1 possible cause of a lack of feeling empathy for another in a joyful state...
and if that envy is based on a deep bitterness re: one's own lack...
is that not springing from the same well of selfishness?
Thanks!
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
Could you please explain that in simpler words, if you could. Thanks so much. Ami
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Ami,
I'd like to wait till after tt has had a chance, if she wants, to bounce it around a bit.
Thanks!
Carolyn
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That would be fine, Carolyn. Thanks.
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Carolyn and tt,
Yes, this makes sense (and thanks, Carolyn for putting it in a bit simpler terms... my head was swimming trying to get around the original, tt. I can read all kinds of junk into Literature, but gimme facts, and I am clueless - lol)...
Jealousy of good, fear of bad... lack of empathy. I think that is just about right.
I can see it in my mother (and father too) - if someone dies, they feel little but gladness it isn't them... if something good happens to someone, it is because of luck, or they wouldn't want it anyways (sour grapes). It is sick and unbelievable to watch. It is definitely a mark of pure self-centeredness.
I am so glad I do feel for others. I thank God that I have this ability.
Love, Beth
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What I am getting out of this abstract is:
1) The world's morality meter looks at empathy towards another's sorrow as "better" than enjoyment of others' gains.
2) Therefore, the idea that empathy occurs more often toward negative happenings is constantly reinforced (by society).
What I want to know is more on their concluding sentence, "We conclude by asking whether this moral (and the underlying empathic) asymmetry warrants our normative concern and we suggest that there are at least two reasons to think otherwise."
What are the 2 reasons?
Dandylife
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Hi everyone,
Hi everyone,
Yeah,, I found the wording of the article rather unwieldy, but on first read I knew I had been presented with something worth pondering. And Carolyn, I'm still pondering. The abstract without the rest of their story pretty much leaves curious souls like you and I with a lot of questions that start with, But...........what about this and what about that?
If fear is one possible cause of a lack of feeling empathy (or being able to sustain empathy) for another in an aversive state...
and if that fear is based on a deep reluctance to imagine self in a similar aversive state...
is that not basically a simple matter of selfishness?
And if envy is on 1 possible cause of a lack of feeling empathy for another in a joyful state...
and if that envy is based on a deep bitterness re: one's own lack...
is that not springing from the same well of selfishness?
Beth, I've often wondered why so much of the behind the scenes conversation among my mother's FOO centered around the failures, deaths, disasters of the people they knew. I don't remember much in the way of behind the scenes rejoicing at anyone's good fortune.
Dandy, I think you did a good job picking the juicy parts from the article. I too am curious about that last sentence. I would like to read the full article. Which brings me to ask, do you purchase or subscribe to any of the online journals on psychology? Does any one here? Are there any recommendations?
I think the article's intrigue for me is that it broadens my understanding of what constitutes wholesome empathy from the perspective of psychology. Just to understand (well kinda) that empathy is not a fixed, static part of my nature and to learn that it operates on a continium of sorts (negative being when misfortune happen to another and that I can feel and share their misfortune as if I were standing in their shoes. Then when someone experiences wonderfully, uplifting, joyous times, I can celebrate with them without feeling envy, resentment, and that whole string of why not me, me, me centered emotions.
That it can and does fluctuate is liberating. It's some of the best news I've received to tell you the truth. I can't tell you the times I've rejoiced silently when someone I knew (and sometimes didn't know) experienced wonderful success. Where I came from, that kind of thing was never given expression. Now according to this article, I was experiencing empathy. I like that. I really do!
To summarize what I think about the article up to now...I think it makes the point that we would do well to take part in the grief of those who are sorrowing and in the joy of those who are glad. Universal practice of that one principle would most likely be a death blow to narcissism.
tt
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we would do well to take part in the grief of those who are sorrowing and in the joy of those who are glad.
Yup.
TT...thank you. I notice most Ns don't light up at another's joy.
Hops
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we would do well to take part in the grief of those who are sorrowing and in the joy of those who are glad.
Yup.
TT...thank you. I notice most Ns don't light up at another's joy.
Hops
That is a fact!!
N couldn't care less when someone else is rejoicing... in fact, it usually sends her into a funk... or worse.
tt, still pondering here, too, but I think we're all saying basically the same things.
Love,
Carolyn
P.S. I have often been tempted to join or pay the fee or whatever is required to read "the rest of the story" on some of these abstracts which turn up as google search results. They are really tantalizing!
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... we would do well to take part in the grief of those who are sorrowing and in the joy of those who are glad.
I agree, as that is a healthy balance to BE ... with maturity, as an authenitic whole person.
Whereas,
Narcissistic Envy .... cannot rejoice with someone's gladness. They have to vilify and render void asap.
Their immediate task is to wipe the smile off one's face.
Leah x
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Hi everyone,
Do you agree with the following quote from the abstract? If so, why do you suppose the scale tips the way it does toward what they call negative empathy? Why does distributing/applying negative empathy seem more appropriate and acceptable than distributing/applying positive empathy? Is it because we were taught to do it that way or something more illusive?
sin actuality, negative empathic responses, as a rule, (a) are more common, (b) are more differentiated, and (c) span a broader range of human relationships than their positive counterparts. Furthermore, we suggest that, barring certain types of privileged relationships, a failure to be empathetically aroused by another's good fortune is subject to far less severe (if any) social disapproval than the failure to share in another's aversive state.
tt
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Dear TT,
I have just read and resonate, as for years now, I have asked the very same question.
Furthermore, we suggest that, barring certain types of privileged relationships, a failure to be empathetically aroused by another's good fortune is subject to far less severe (if any) social disapproval than the failure to share in another's aversive state.
Could you please be so kind as to post up the link to the abstract as I am genuinely interested in acquiring the full account/article.
Grateful thanks,
Leah x
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I think there's a lot of severe training that comes from Puritan repressive roots.
That training forbade laughter, dancing, noise.
For women particularly, but consider the humorless world of the Puritans, any strict sect.
Sober.
Pious.
Dutiful.
Suffering.
Gray.
Repressed.
Those were the names of the game.
If you got loud or tossed your hair you were "wanton".
I think the reluctance to celebrate, to sizzle with happiness, is a fear of lewdness, drunkenness, almost.
There's something about the "national" or "Western" personality that gets happiness confused with irresponsibility, sloth, immoral licensciousness, well, SEX.
Put me in the stocks, dunk me for a witch, pass me a burka. No exuberance will be tolerated.
But if you're miserable, I'll come over and sit by you.
(I think it's good to have empathy for sorrow. Vital. But it's good to celebrate too.)
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I resonate with your posting.
I am sure that there are countless other people in the same boat as myself, in so much as ....
I actually have received, and sometimes do, snide nasty remarks for being a person with an inner Joy and deep Contentment.
I was shocked by one person's assumption. This is in REAL life.
My counsellor explained the reason why people do this -- which lifted a blanket of oppression off my shoulders.
Q. Who owned the blanket ? Any why place it on me ? Or any another person ?
Interesting, sad, but ever so true.
Love, Leah
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How did the counselor explain it, Leah?
Do you mean the counselor said, somebody else has a wet blanket, and feels a compulsion to throw it on anybody else's glow?
I get that...
Hops
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tt,
This may sound a bit warped... but I think people express empathy towards bad situations because in those cases they feel they NEED to. Even Ns know they have to pretend to be sorry if something bad happens among an acquaintance. I think it is almost like a prejudice - when you feel differently towards a race, you may treat people of that race especially nicely - in itself a prejudice. Likewise, in your fear, you might want to feel empathy because you think you should. With joyful events, you are assured the person is OK. With sadness, you may feel a need to fill a space - for your own comfort and theirs (depending on the level of true empathy). Does this make any sense to you?
Love, Beth
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My thoughts and view in life;
Put yourself in another person's shoes;
> Rejoice with them when they have a voice, heart, of glad tidings/news
> Cry with them when they have a voice, a heart, of sadness.
Healthy Balance of True Genuine Empathy.
Love, Leah
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tt,
This may sound a bit warped... but I think people express empathy towards bad situations because in those cases they feel they NEED to. Even Ns know they have to pretend to be sorry if something bad happens among an acquaintance. I think it is almost like a prejudice - when you feel differently towards a race, you may treat people of that race especially nicely - in itself a prejudice. Likewise, in your fear, you might want to feel empathy because you think you should. With joyful events, you are assured the person is OK. With sadness, you may feel a need to fill a space - for your own comfort and theirs (depending on the level of true empathy). Does this make any sense to you?
Love, Beth
Beth, This makes tremendous sense to me. Maybe that's because I think we grew up with some of the same prevailing themes.
My mother never had anything good to say about anyone... and I don't recall her ever, ever rejoicing or even looking pleased when someone else had cause to be glad. Also, there was the constant "we're better than others" and lack of genuine interaction with other human beings...
so everything was very superficial and only, ever, all about appearances.
My own view is likely very jaded by all that, but I've often had the feeling that others' expression of condolences is more about them than the person who's suffering. I hope that I'm allowed to say that in all honesty, repeating that I know it's a skewed feeling and that I am ordinarily not compelled to act on that feeling, because I realize that it entails a judgment of others which I'm not in any position to make.
It's a type of cynicism, I suppose, which I am hoping to shed, by the grace of God.
Carolyn
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Hi Beth,
This may sound a bit warped... but I think people express empathy towards bad situations because in those cases they feel they NEED to. Even Ns know they have to pretend to be sorry if something bad happens among an acquaintance. I think it is almost like a prejudice - when you feel differently towards a race, you may treat people of that race especially nicely - in itself a prejudice. Likewise, in your fear, you might want to feel empathy because you think you should. With joyful events, you are assured the person is OK. With sadness, you may feel a need to fill a space - for your own comfort and theirs (depending on the level of true empathy). Does this make any sense to you?
Love, Beth
All you say here seems true and applicable to society at large. From this perspective though, it all seems so convoluted and useless. What am I missing?
tt
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Hi Amber,
OK... maybe I should repeat myself:
Sorry to exasperate you.
tt
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Hi Beth,
tt,
This may sound a bit warped... but I think people express empathy towards bad situations because in those cases they feel they NEED to. Even Ns know they have to pretend to be sorry if something bad happens among an acquaintance. I think it is almost like a prejudice - when you feel differently towards a race, you may treat people of that race especially nicely - in itself a prejudice. Likewise, in your fear, you might want to feel empathy because you think you should. With joyful events, you are assured the person is OK. With sadness, you may feel a need to fill a space - for your own comfort and theirs (depending on the level of true empathy). Does this make any sense to you?
Love, Beth
All you say here seems true and applicable to society at large. From this perspective though, it all seems so convoluted and useless. What am I missing?
tt
I feel the aboe illustration is someone or people being False. Pretence of caring for the pleasure of looking good. Insincerity. Shallowness.
My NM used to make a big outward demonstration with false empty words of accepting and being kind to people of other cultures and race, yet, behind closed doors her words were the complete opposite! So in reality, it was all a sham, a pretence, likewise with false empathy. Cringe worthy to witness.
A lady I know of, she is first in line to offer sympathy and empathy and be seen to do. False. Gossips about the person(s) afterwards. I know, she did it to me.
Genuine or False is the simple difference. Yes, there may well be a continuum, all the same, personally, discerning falsehood prevents the cringe worth factor! :)
But, that's just my observations and experience. Life stories from the Leah bank.
Love to all,
Leah ~ with joy to be.
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But, what happens to the happy person if s/he doesn't receive positive feedback from others about the experience or circumstances? That would tarnish the brightness of the happiness a bit, I think. It invalidates the person - sends the message: who cares?
Hi Amber,
If the person is genuinely happy, or fullfilled, then why would they need empathy? Genuine happiness does not feel unhappy because others are getting someting that they are not. Rather part of what causes happiness is the joy of knowing that others are cared for and loved more than ourselves.
It seems very Nish to want empathy for our success and happiness because that IS taking away from those that do suffer and really do need our care. Compassion and empathy are healing ways of relating to others which can help those in need, or hurting, to find relief, a much needed relief for survival.
It seems that seeking empathy for happiness or success is really more along the lines of trying to arouse envy or attention which is a form of N supply.
I don't know -- I could be so far off here......
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Dear Lise,
Although your comment was addressed to Amber, I am wondering... and I hope it's okay to ask you...
don't you appreciate when someone rejoices along with you when you have good news to celebrate?
I'm just surprised, Lise... because it seems like such an intimate thing, to me, to share the good times and not only the bad.
Thank you.
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn
I'm sitting here trying my hardest to recall when I have shared the good news with anyone in my life. The last 6-8 months of my life have been so painful I have forgotten what good is...I know that sounds dramatic LOL.
Well, I know that when my girlfriend shared with me the good news of her engagement I was very happy.
Hmmmm.............I just don't know what to make of your question, Carolyn.
Let me think on it.
L
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Carolyn, thats touching on something I was thinking about yesterday.
All I want is company, a witness, someone to listen and nod as I describe what the experience is like on my journey.
That the nodding comes with some understanding, even if it's distant understanding.
We've all experienced,loss, grief, disappointment, fear, resentment, anger, confusion.
Some of the most helpful times with friends in the last few years have been when I've given words to my experience and without offering to hold, hug, wipe the tears or celebrate with me, they merely listened and nodded with understanding.
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Lise, No rush... and I don't think you sound dramatic, just realistic... I mean, if that's how it's been, then that's reality! But maybe it's time to find a rose to snoof? I dunno.
Hugs,
Carolyn
and Daily... that was beautiful. Me, too... only nods of understanding, even if it's distant and vague... just to be heard and acknowledged as an individual entity but not alien!
Hugs to you, too,
Carolyn
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How did the counselor explain it, Leah?
Do you mean the counselor said, somebody else has a wet blanket, and feels a compulsion to throw it on anybody else's glow?
I get that...
Hops
Yes, Hops
But also, kind of like the wet blanket dries out and sticks to you.
Thereby, creating a heaviness of heart -- having the effect of dampening out one's joyful glow.
So then one feels simply flattened or squished.
Love, Leah
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DailyMail,
All I want is company, a witness, someone to listen and nod as I describe what the experience is like on my journey.
That the nodding comes with some understanding, even if it's distant understanding.
We've all experienced,loss, grief, disappointment, fear, resentment, anger, confusion.
Some of the most helpful times with friends in the last few years have been when I've given words to my experience and without offering to hold, hug, wipe the tears or celebrate with me, they merely listened and nodded with understanding.
I think you just demystified the word empathy.
Thank you.
tt
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I agree, that's why I also included "celebrating" in the list of ways in which I need and want company or a witness. And I don't think it has anything to do with needing attention, but a very normal human need for connection to the rest of the human race.
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Hey Lise -
if I had happy news and actually FELT happy, I'd be all the over the place looking for people to share with.
What I was trying to say, is what happens if I AM happy... and no one cares enough to nod, smile, congratulate me - what Daily Mail was saying about the negative situation: a witness, a nod, understanding is still important. I do need "empathy" for happiness or I feel invisible, unimportant; like I don't exist. I feel invalidated if someone doesn't say - "That's nice". My mom was absolutely famous for this type of invalidation.
Being happy - and wanting to include others in that happiness or wanting someone to notice, isn't Nish.
Oh, yes, agreed. Thanks for the clarity.
Are empathy and praise the same for you?
And for me, who came from a home with lack of praise, I have had at times in my life and excessive need for praise which I can confuse with needing empathy.
I have to be careful. I think if I was to get engaged or enjoy some common success that I know others would enjoy I would share it with them. But rarely do I share much of my joy or successes unless it will benefit others in a good way.
N saint was so good at acting the humble person that it made me feel ashamed for ever needing empathy for sharing my lifes good news. It was if she projected that everytime I shared something good I was only doing it for Npraise or Ncknowledgement. It felt icky.
But yes, we do need empathy for our joy.
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I think loving parents can instill a child's sense of power and capability and PRIDE without using praise, but they'd have to be very good at it.
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I agree, as is my view in life -- Empathy is to Walk in the Other Peson's Shoes:
Empathy : of Joy and Sorrow
Join with someone in empathy with their Joy and happiness, state of inner bliss.
Join with someone in empathy with their Sorrow and sadness, state of inner despair.
Which seems to me to be a healthy balance of mutual empathy -- and respectful validation.
Leah x
quote: "empathy is a powerful communication skill that is often misunderstood and underused"
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validation?
Hmm, I'm not sure my need for connection is about validation. I feel valid. I just feel better when I'm not alone or "so odd" in my experiences.
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Daily ------------I can empathize :D :D :P :D :D
It sure takes the edge off life for me when I hear that others are real and human and struggle too with life's issues.
Life CAN be hard at times, that is a fact.
Good people and friends help to make it better.
Hugs.
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I truly appreciate this .....
Whether people are beautiful and friendly or unattractive and disruptive, ultimately they are human beings, just like oneself. Like oneself, they want happiness and do not want suffering.
Furthermore, their right to overcome suffering and be happy is equal to one's own. Now, when you recognize that all beings are equal in both their desire for happiness and their right to obtain it, you automatically feel empathy and closeness for them.
Through accustoming your mind to this sense of universal altruism, you develop a feeling of responsibility for others: the wish to help them actively overcome their problems. Nor is this wish selective; it equally applies to all.
~ Dalai Lama
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Hey Lise -
if I had happy news and actually FELT happy, I'd be all the over the place looking for people to share with.
What I was trying to say, is what happens if I AM happy... and no one cares enough to nod, smile, congratulate me - what Daily Mail was saying about the negative situation: a witness, a nod, understanding is still important. I do need "empathy" for happiness or I feel invisible, unimportant; like I don't exist. I feel invalidated if someone doesn't say - "That's nice". My mom was absolutely famous for this type of invalidation.
Being happy - and wanting to include others in that happiness or wanting someone to notice, isn't Nish.
Dear Amber,
That's how I feel, too. Thanks for putting it into words.
Love,
Carolyn
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I think it's just as damaging, if not more for us particular folk - those recovering from voicelessness.
Bean, I agree with you. I think it's just as damaging and equally as valid an indicator of true empathy.
And CONGRATULATIONS on being selected for an award !!
Love,
Carolyn