Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: darren on March 12, 2008, 12:23:35 PM
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I didn't realize I had any depression going on until a psychologist told me I did. I found it really odd that someone could be depressed the majority of their life and not be aware of it. I accept that its probably true, and he explained to me that different people experience depression in different ways. I don't typically feel sad, or hopeless. I just lack positive feelings.
I don't talk about it because I'll feel like I'm whining, and a part of me feels like if I do I'm giving voice to those feelings and giving them strength. I'm sure that therapy is main solution I should pursue, but I'm really into self help , also. Am I holding onto negative thoughts? Am I having my own self pity party?
Its also quite a blow to have it suggested I have my own disorder. I spent so long in a relationship with a probably personality disorder so I know the pain and frustration it causes. I've watched and listened in so many forums and realize how much trouble people with personality disorders have put some people through. Its a shock that there might be something wrong with me. From what I've seen people with personality disorders seem quite hopeless and cause lots of problems, so I wonder how society is going to accept me. I spent a good six years whining, complaining, and being angry at things like BPD and BPD.
I've noticed that being so reclusive and unsociable has weird affects. When I offer up so little about myself, people tend to fill in the blanks themselves. These days I can see humor in that. Some people think I'm a jerk or weird... some people think I'm an incredibly nice guy and wonderful. Both sides kinda make me laugh. I don't think I'm happy with the way I think the world perceives me.
Does a person with a personality disorder have a right to be in a place like this, where a lot of people have suffered at the hands of it? Are people untrusting and wary of people like me? I'm okay with who I am. I'm pretty self absorbed, but at least I don't have traits that make me seek attention or manipulate or lie to people.
My day to day life seems like I'm just trying to kill time till its all over. I don't think I feel the need to rush that, but I don't see a point. I'm dragging along with no meaning or purpose in life. Shouldn't there be more to it?
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Hi Darren!
Only last year a therapist diagnosed my depression. Only then I understood a lot of simple symptoms that I had had most of my life, including isolation. She also showed me that my mother was depressive in my childhood, helping me to understand her distance.
I also think it is wise not to talk about it to people in general, because most people can't or don't have the time to understand and that will make you feel worse (usually we hear something like "you should forget it and go on with your life"). But if you have someone you can trust and that proves capable of listening to you without judgement, DO talk to this person.
This is the place to talk about it. DO whine, but don't get lost in it, look for the causes. What is the motivation behind it? In my case, I learned that I whine mostly because I feel inferior and complain of people and situations in general to try to be at the same level or to feel justified.
Regarding your feelings that you have your own disorder, remember the basic facts: if you were really disordered, would you be here and in therapy, accepting your problems? No. Really disordered people don't see anything wrong with themselves. So, the very fact that you are questioning your sanity is your first and very concrete sign of sanity.
Of course we don't grow up or live with disordered people for years and then go away intact. In my case, I have lots of traces of NPD, that I am working on. And living with this kind of people is crazy-making by itself, we have to learn what normal is in the aftermath and that takes time and experience.
Hope I helped.
Best wishes!
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Yes, luckily I'm not so messed up that I can't be introspective. Although I've been through a lot of rough times, I'm thankful in the past year or so that I can recognize where I have issues. I can see what makes me different and work on it.
I have found its difficult to talk about with people in general. They just don't seem to get it. I remember trying to explain to a coworker how my ex had mental problems and her response was just, "Oh, I don't believe in that stuff." <bangs head on desk> Even my own mother got mad at me when I suggested there was something wrong with my ex, as if I was just being mean. I think I've learned that lesson though and I'm pretty cautious who I choose to share with now, and I'm much better at finding people who will understand and recognizing those that wont.
After my rough childhood I spent most of my adult life thinking I was tougher than everyone else emotionally. After all, I went through hard times and seemed to be unscratched and unaffected. Turns out it wasn't so. Its hard to believe I can be a grown adult and not recognize what a healthy relationship with a person is. I'm learning though, and I've eliminated ENORMOUS amounts of stress just from that. Its an amazing difference between having decent people in your life, and people you have to "deal with" or "put up with."
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Its hard to believe I can be a grown adult and not recognize what a healthy relationship with a person is. ....... Its an amazing difference between having decent people in your life, and people you have to "deal with" or "put up with."
Wow, I completely relate to this. Yes, hard to belive and amazing.
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Hi darren.......I've had a lot of therapy and been diagnosed with lots of stuff. From BPD to Schizoid. one crazy therapist tried to convince me I was psychotic....she basically was a pill pushing fraud/psychiatrist that charged people 55.00 for 10 min of consultation. After (3) hour long visits for psychotherapy. $145.00 each session. I saw thru what she was doing.... stood up and told her what I thought and slammed the door in her face. In essence she lied to herself and was using her patients. From experience lots of.... if not the majority of therapists appear incompetent. I worried like you about my "diagnosis". that was just another way to keep me beating up on myself and most importantly I had another way to avoid the pain and truth of my childhood and continue in withdrawal and isolation... another form of denial for me. Can you feel the rage inside about what happened during childhood? reading your story i see you like other people here went thru hell. Any symptoms you experience have a reason for being and thats because of what you went thru. Its not about who you are. Labels say nothing as far as i'm concerened. Believe it or not lots of therapists and people in the public use them with patients to avoid their own unresolved pain. I for one think its terrible...a misuse of power! James
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Hi darren.......I've had a lot of therapy and been diagnosed with lots of stuff. From BPD to Schizoid. one crazy therapist tried to convince me I was psychotic....she basically was a pill pushing fraud/psychiatrist that charged people 55.00 for 10 min of consultation. After (3) hour long visits for psychotherapy. $145.00 each session. I saw thru what she was doing.... stood up and told her what I thought and slammed the door in her face. In essence she lied to herself and was using her patients. From experience lots of.... if not the majority of therapists appear incompetent. I worried like you about my "diagnosis". that was just another way to keep me beating up on myself and most importantly I had another way to avoid the pain and truth of my childhood and continue in withdrawal and isolation... another form of denial for me. Can you feel the rage inside about what happened during childhood? reading your story i see you like other people here went thru hell. Any symptoms you experience have a reason for being and thats because of what you went thru. Its not about who you are. Labels say nothing as far as i'm concerened. Believe it or not lots of therapists and people in the public use them with patients to avoid their own unresolved pain. I for one think its terrible...a misuse of power! James
Hi James,
It sounds like you had some bad experience with therapists, and I'm sorry for that. I've seen my share of therpists doing bad things. I did not visit with mine that much, but in that short time I think he did a good job. The only thing he was certain about was that I was suffering from depression. At the time I had thought I was some kind of psychopath myself, and he convinced me otherwise. He said I was too aware of my issues to be suffering from something like that, and wanted to treat me for depression and eliminate that. it wasn't until I prodded him about what was different about me that he suggested we could look at a Schizoid disorder in the future. I'm more relieved to have a label than bothered, as it offers me some answers. I'm just not like other people. Everybody shares these traits of disorders, but at healthy levels, and some of mine are extreme. I still have things in common with people though, and I don't feel it makes me less of a person. Though, I can see how focusing on a label can make getting better difficult. I have a feeling that if I can work out how I got here and work backwards, I can reverse some things.
As far as my past experience, I had tons of rage and anger at my ex that messed me up bad. I think I've come so far as to overcome that. I'm much better for it, too. But rage from my childhood? Thats where it gets weird. I have no feelings at all about it. Nothing. If I have any feelings about it, I'm very unaware and very detached from it. I think maybe childhood sucked so bad that my brain decided it was better to just not feel anything at all. And thats me, running around unaware and aloof... it wasn't until I ran into my ex that was someone was able to push my buttons enough to make me feel something.
I dunno, life is weird =) Something about my experience has enlightened me. It as though my mind is on vacation unless somebody is around abusing me, then I become more like a normal person. I have to be under serious pressure of my mind wanders off... most likely to escape.
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Dear Darren,
My NM is a therapist,so I stayed away from therapists.I probably was depressed,but in a low level way,no joy, numb.
I gave up on life , a few years ago. I didn't see any way out of the "rhythm " of my life.
When my son committed suicide, I realized that I MUST live and thrive. I am trying to do that.
Do you feel a little better after sharing your feelings? I hope so. Keep writing, Darren. You are not alone!!!! Hugs, Ami
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Darren....these diagnostic labels can be sorta helpful in the right hands. IMO they are about clusters of symptoms and their origins. There is and has been consderable research for years on their origin. From my own experince it was strictly due to abuse. These diagnostic tools also change every so often and aren't fixed and their is considerable dissagrement on their causes. Personally i think its just early abuse thats been repressed or denied. I found my rage but like you said it started with people and things around me. I slowly worked backwards and found the truth and all my denied feeings of childhood. Let me ask you a question if someone treated you today like you were treated as a child how would you feel about it? James
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Darren....these diagnostic labels can be sorta helpful in the right hands. IMO they are about clusters of symptoms and their origins. There is and has been consderable research for years on their origin. From my own experince it was strictly due to abuse. These diagnostic tools also change every so often and aren't fixed and their is considerable dissagrement on their causes. Personally i think its just early abuse thats been repressed or denied. I found my rage but like you said it started with people and things around me. I slowly worked backwards and found the truth and all my denied feeings of childhood. Let me ask you a question if someone treated you today like you were treated as a child how would you feel about it? James
Thats an easy question, because its happened. I ignore it, feel insecure, make excuses and rationalize, until I've had too much... then something else takes over... and I rage and turn into Mr. Hyde. Its out of character for me, and its werid cuz I avoid getting that way. But really, its a time to be proud of myself because I'm standing up for myself and my rights. I get pretty nasty until things get back under control. My brother used to rage and smash and bash things, so I guess I have a hard time letting myself get angry because I'll feel like I'm being like him. But basically, I'll put up with it until I can't hold back the anger anymore. Then I'll snap... but I handle it much better than my brother did.
Its the same way I acted with my parents. Every once in a while I had to put them in their place, and I got pretty good at it.
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Darren.........i really relate to what you just wrote. I've been there. I had a dad who could rage. I was scared of him. i never talked back because of what i feared he would do. When i got older i let people walk all over me. I got mad but kept it inside. Sometimes just smiled at em. when i was pushed to the very limits i could be fierce. I didn't want to be like my dad either. When i finally exploded in rage rather than anger...(.usually in my case the rage that i expressed didn't warrant such intensity anger would have worked fine). it took years for me to realize that the rage I expressed was coming from deep inside (repressed). This old pent up rage that i carried for my dad would without me knowing it come out sometimes in the form of rage at people who i was around. They might have made me angry but that old unconsious rage blew it up bigger than what it really was. The unconscious is strong. I was abused and in denial. most feelings were shut down. current events were triggering old repressed memories and i sometimes raged. the rage usually was about my dad or being abused. it made me feel like a heel though. until i realized what was happening. Nothing is wrong with rage(safely) or anger IMO Bradshaw Says that Rage is "shamed" anger. hope i wrote this so it makes sens......James
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I've had a lot of therapy and been diagnosed with lots of stuff. From BPD to Schizoid. one crazy therapist tried to convince me I was psychotic....she basically was a pill pushing fraud/psychiatrist that charged people 55.00 for 10 min of consultation. After (3) hour long visits for psychotherapy. $145.00 each session. I saw thru what she was doing.... stood up and told her what I thought and slammed the door in her face. In essence she lied to herself and was using her patients. From experience lots of.... if not the majority of therapists appear incompetent.
I completely agree with James! After going through a lot with incompetent therapists, I finally understood how I was considering them authorities without the due results. I was acting from an inferior point of view (=they know everything, I don't know what to do).
I am reading now a book called "Safe People" suggested by friends here and I am amazed by how accurate the book is in pointing simple causes to a great deal of psychological problems (not that I am completely against medication, in some cases and at some points in our lives they are absolutely helpful or necessary).
Hugs.
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Hi Hardtotrust...........isn't it great when you can see thru the intentions of a therapist or anyone for that matter! So many of us who have been wounded early, often by N parents, walk into therapy and don't realize we carry in, our feeling of the child fear of facing the authority of our parents in the form of a therapist. we usually sense the inequality but don't recognize its nature. If the therapist is worthwhile he/she treats you with total respect/empathy and eventually the patient has the ability to resove old dependency issues as he is allowed to challenge in safety the symbolic parent in the therapist. The potential for abuse is there and it's common. An unhealed therapist often "seizes" power while the poor patient never really grows and recovers and still feels" less than"..............regards James
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Well, James, I can't really brag about seeing through the intentions of these therapists. I'm somewhat naive.
Only last year, after about 20 years of different "professionals" I got real and I got mad. Only then I understood how messed up most of their own lives is. I really believe in the possibilities of psychology, but it is really difficult to find a serious and competent therapist.
And psychiatrists... OMG. They really are important in a moment of crisis, but if let them rule your life... it is very dangerous.
So many of us who have been wounded early, often by N parents, walk into therapy and don't realize we carry in, our feeling of the child fear of facing the authority of our parents in the form of a therapist.
Yes! You summarized it all! That's exactly what happened to me.
Darren, how are you today?
Hugs!
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Dear Darren,
My NM is a therapist,so I stayed away from therapists.I probably was depressed,but in a low level way,no joy, numb.
I gave up on life , a few years ago. I didn't see any way out of the "rhythm " of my life.
When my son committed suicide, I realized that I MUST live and thrive. I am trying to do that.
Do you feel a little better after sharing your feelings? I hope so. Keep writing, Darren. You are not alone!!!! Hugs, Ami
That sounds just like me, I'm very numb. I'm not getting a lot out of life at the moment, but I'm looking for ways to change it. I'm very sorry for your loss, thats got to be a very tough thing to go through. My father did something similar and I haven't even begun to think about it, or much less deal with it. Seeing people fight through these issues really inspires me to keep fighting through mine.
I don't really any better yet for sharing my feelings, but I tend to be quite slow with things. I'm probably only sharing the things I feel safe to share and not the important stuff yet =) I wont stop trying though... it takes me a while to warm up
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Well, James, I can't really brag about seeing through the intentions of these therapists. I'm somewhat naive.
Only last year, after about 20 years of different "professionals" I got real and I got mad. Only then I understood how messed up most of their own lives is. I really believe in the possibilities of psychology, but it is really difficult to find a serious and competent therapist.
And psychiatrists... OMG. They really are important in a moment of crisis, but if let them rule your life... it is very dangerous.
Yes! You summarized it all! That's exactly what happened to me.
Darren, how are you today?
I'm doing okay I suppose, I'm still kicking =) I don't feel like I've made any real progress in getting better in a VERY long time. I don't think I've really tried though... I think if I stick around a while and pay attention to others stories I'll start finding my motivation again. This is a great forum and I like the environment compared to other places I've been.
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Hi Hardtotrust...........isn't it great when you can see thru the intentions of a therapist or anyone for that matter! So many of us who have been wounded early, often by N parents, walk into therapy and don't realize we carry in, our feeling of the child fear of facing the authority of our parents in the form of a therapist. we usually sense the inequality but don't recognize its nature. If the therapist is worthwhile he/she treats you with total respect/empathy and eventually the patient has the ability to resove old dependency issues as he is allowed to challenge in safety the symbolic parent in the therapist. The potential for abuse is there and it's common. An unhealed therapist often "seizes" power while the poor patient never really grows and recovers and still feels" less than"..............regards James
I think I've kinda finally figured all that out... it was after about five years with my abusive ex that I just somehow reached "enlightment." I call it that because thats what it felt like. There was just a day she was treating me so badly and instead of dwelling on it and trying to figure her out, I just simply asked myself what was wrong with me that would make me stick around and let it happen? Thats when it hit me... Holy crap I've been abused before now! I think I can trace just about everything back to those earlier years. Its all stuff I learned as a child, that I'm hoping... I can unlearn. My theory is that if I can learn what my issues are and why I behave that way and why its unhealthy, they can be corrected.
Thats how I beat my drug problem.... it was learning why I needed them. Once I realized why I did them it was a piece of cake to quit, cuz I realized my reason for doing them actually had the opposite effect.
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Well, I bet I have you beat, Darren b/c after over 20 years,I JUST realized my H was an N.(lol)So ,do I get the prize(lol)?
As far as counselors, Ann(my current counselor ) is the only one I never gave my power away to. She tried to "take it" ,in a way,a few times,but I only went as far as I wanted , and that was it.
A therapist(even a good one) is still a person with foilbles,and does not deserve absolute power .
So many patterns are re-enactments of early years--bleh. I am always afraid people will be mad at me(my M). I replay it all the time.
Do you feel better that you have been posting, Darren? Hugs, Ami
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Man, this motivation thing... I have a VERY big problem with that. It's been years since last time I was motivated. In a way it is good, because I am not falling for illusions as before, only to be disappointed in the end. But it took me a loooooooooooong time to begin to feel a little motivation again. It's possible that it takes so long because now you are going for your real self, your real needs and they have been buried a long time ago.
Very interesting insight you had there!
Hugs.
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Just saying,"Hi" to you, Darren!!!How are you doing,today, friend? Hugs to you Ami
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Well, I bet I have you beat, Darren b/c after over 20 years,I JUST realized my H was an N.(lol)So ,do I get the prize(lol)?
As far as counselors, Ann(my current counselor ) is the only one I never gave my power away to. She tried to "take it" ,in a way,a few times,but I only went as far as I wanted , and that was it.
A therapist(even a good one) is still a person with foilbles,and does not deserve absolute power .
So many patterns are re-enactments of early years--bleh. I am always afraid people will be mad at me(my M). I replay it all the time.
Do you feel better that you have been posting, Darren? Hugs, Ami
I knew something was off about my ex from the very beginning, it just took me a long time to figure out exactly what that was. I don't really feel better about posting yet, but I'm sure I will. The good thing is I don't feel worse. The first time I came here and posted my story I started feeling bad and took a few months off. I'm not having those problems now. Its nice to have people listen an identify and relate to things... I like that.
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Man, this motivation thing... I have a VERY big problem with that. It's been years since last time I was motivated. In a way it is good, because I am not falling for illusions as before, only to be disappointed in the end. But it took me a loooooooooooong time to begin to feel a little motivation again. It's possible that it takes so long because now you are going for your real self, your real needs and they have been buried a long time ago.
Very interesting insight you had there!
Hugs.
I've got a severe lack of motivation and a real procrastination problem. Sometimes I think I've kinda been trained... when I have free time and space thats the time I feel the need to escape as opposed to doing things I should be doing. I used to practically be a bum and couldn't hold a job for more than a few weeks. The only positiive thing I see about my last relationship is that living with a disordered girl was so bad that I actually got a job and worked overtime just to avoid being home and going through the stress. I guess its a little sad when a day of work is worse than a day at the office, but I worked my little but off the corporate ladder and got to lead my own department.
I'm not so worried about how long it takes though, because at least I'm finally moving in the right direction.
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Darren, I haven't been on this board for very long but your pain is palpable. I can actually feel it. I also feel your confusion, and your lack of motivation.
What I want to ask you about is giving up drugs and how you found it so easy once you understood. I am a chronic alcoholic and have been for almost 40 years. I use alcohol to try and dampen the pain. The pain changes from time to time. First, it started off being the pain of being married but alone. I was in a new country with a new husband. He seemed to getting it altogether by getting a job and making friends etc. I had a lot more trouble getting a job and I remember Melbourne Cup Day, either 1972 or 1973, sitting home and watching TV because I had never seen anything like it in my life (In South Africa, we didn't have TV and we certainly didn't have anything like the Melbourne Cup). I was watching one of the TV channels which broadcast the whole day. Everyone filmed was drinking and appeared to be having a good time. I decided that that was what I had to do. I went and got a bottle of Vermouth and some some lemonade. I spent the rest of the day in an alcoholic haze. Boy, did I enjoy the feeling of relief not being subjected to all those feelings of I did not really know what.
The second round of pain started when I found I was married to a man who put his career before me and our relationship. Again although now working, I found I spent a lot of time alone. This gave me a lot of time to reflect. But it was only when the rejections set in, that I started to be concerned. I now know my mother was a narc, and now I found I was married to a narc but I didn't use that word to describe him. What happened was he used to work long hours, and I was left to do his household and gardening chores. Instead of being appreciative, he criticised me for me for not doing like he did them. Bells started ringing in my head. Somewhere in the fog that was my past, I remembered my mother doing the same thing.
The third round of pain came after my husband and I separated and I moved on. I met an older man, who had a group of friends that spent hours discussing relationship problems with a huge amount of alcohol and late, late nights.
The forth round of pain started when I married this seemingly kindly psychologist. Boy, did he mess with my head. I used to drink to distance myself from his seeming completely unemotional assessment of everything I did, like I was the client. I even found clinical notes (in the bin) that he wrote about me. So I started acting like his emotional mouthpiece, ie his was completely devoid of emotions, so I did his feeling for him. It became a sack of baggage that I carried around all the time, like being 20 kilos overweight.
Again, whilst putting together bits and pieces about my life, I just couldn't fit it altogether, like a jigsaw missing a couple of pieces. It is only recently that I met someone who provided the missing pieces of the puzzle and I can now see it so clearly. The problem is even though I have solved the puzzle, I seem to still need the numbing quality of the alcohol. I have convinced myself that I am most lucid when I dull my emotions and write or talk about my feelings. Maybe, it is just a habit, maybe it is just a crutch that I have got used to.
So Darren, I am very interested in how you came to the conclusion, you no longer needed the drugs. I have been told it is possible but I want to know how you did it. It must have taken a lot of courage, and commitment.
I hope some of what I had written makes sense.
Kim in Oz.
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Hi Kim =)
Its hard to put into words how I got past the drugs, it was a combination of things and a very spiritual journey. Once I reached a certain mindset, giving them up was actually very easy and wasn't much work at all. I wanted to give them up more than I wanted to do them.
I think it had a whole lot to do with hitting rock bottom. I'll try and write a story about it because theres a lot to it. I didn't reach the mindset to pull it off voluntarily, its more like life gave me a hard kick in the a**. I spent six years with a very psychologically disturbed person, and in that time I learned alot about psychology and mental processes trying to understand her and make things better. I never fixed anything and never got her to understand there was something different about her, but I did learn to understand it. Then one day I gave up on her and looked in the mirror, and everything I learned about psychology got reflected onto myself.
I dunno, its complicated... life kinda forced me to look at things differently...especially myself. I couldn't look at myself honestly until that point. It was easy after that, but what got me there sure wasn't =) I think at that point my desire to quit destructive behaviors became greater than my desire to do them. Before that, I just didn't really want to get better on any deep level, and I was comfortable with where I was even though I shouldn't have been.
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Dear Darren,
What happened to you with drugs,happened to me after Scott died. Life forced me to look at things,differently. Thank you, Darren and Kim, Love Ami
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Hi Darren and Ami. I thought there must be a catalyst, which changes your mindset. I would love to hear the story of how you got to that point, Darren. Ami, you have shared your story so openly on the board and made yourself so vulnerable to all of us. Thank you. I'll have to put some more thought into what I am trying to escape from, now I have got to this point. Darren, you mentioned something about getting some hobbies. I suspect one of my problems is having too much time on my hands. Before I used to be a perfectionist (and a carer) so I filled my time cleaning, shopping, tidying up, ironing,washing, wiping down the walls, fixing anything that I could fix ie the flyscreen inserts, mowing, watering, pruning etc. I kept myself so busy, I hardly had time to think. Now that I am myself and not driven by my mother's desires to be perfect, I am a complete slob. I only do what has to be done and even then it is only if I want to do it. I do work in the garden because I love it but I don't do a lot. I seem to have so many empty hours to fill. A friend told me when he gave my drinking 30 years, ago, he didn't have much time for anything else. He was surprised how much time he suddenly had on his hands. Now he is so busy, he wonders how he ever found the time to drink.
Kim in Oz
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Dear Kim,
I can hear that you are in transition. You "crack me up ' with your description of your house. Thank God, my friend has a cleaning business.My H begged her to come twice a week(lol)
I have one beer a night since Scott died. I could see how one could become an alcoholic b/c it is a powerful drug.Now, though, I WANT to live. I want to learn how to navigate life, with my own compass. I have a passion to do this.
I can see beautiful things out there for me, if I can own myself.
I have hope,Kim. I think hope is an important thing.
Keep writing,Kim. I think sharing your thoughts and pain will help you to get clarity. I think that is a part of what you are searching for.
Love Ami
(((((Kim))))))
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Hi Darren...How are you doing today? I've been re-reading a few of the posts people wrote after i posted my story. In yours you started "thats quite a story". I'm not sure if mine is any different than others. I felt the same about yours when i read it. My childhood was all i knew and it seemed "sort" of normal to me. (a really sick thought). You comment helped me challenge in a bigger way the old illusion of "normalcy" . Sometime now i feel nausated the more i'm able to see that it wasn't. I guess it takes awhile for this to sink in. I've been brainwashed for lack of a better word. Can you relate to this? Best James
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Dear Darren
I can see that you have already "opened up" a lot. I see you having a little hope that "maybe" you CAN get better. I felt that way when I found the board,too.
The board is the most healing it has ever been,since I have been hereIMO)
I think that you will be safe to be "you" and share ,as you see fit. It is SO hard to share honestly . I do it b/c I must ,if I am to heal. It is the only way I know to reclaim my "stolen" core.
Life has little value when you are numb and I have been numb long enough.
I think that if you stay on the board, you will find your "lost self".It is probably more buried than lost.
Take your time and trust yourself to heal in a way in which you are comfortable. Love and a Hug, Ami
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Hi Darren...How are you doing today? I've been re-reading a few of the posts people wrote after i posted my story. In yours you started "thats quite a story". I'm not sure if mine is any different than others. I felt the same about yours when i read it. My childhood was all i knew and it seemed "sort" of normal to me. (a really sick thought). You comment helped me challenge in a bigger way the old illusion of "normalcy" . Sometime now i feel nausated the more i'm able to see that it wasn't. I guess it takes awhile for this to sink in. I've been brainwashed for lack of a better word. Can you relate to this? Best James
I say its quite a story because, and I think a lot of people do this, when I read other people stories I start to think mine wasn't so bad. I judge my story against others... and its a hard habit to break. I can relate, I didn't realize that there was anything abnormal about my childhood until a few years ago. I didn't realize my current friendships weren't healthy either. I don't know how I couldn't know, but I suppose I just thought everyone grew up that way or that it wasn't as bad as I thought it was.
As far as my childhood I don't ever feel nauseated about it, but maybe I'm different. I don't really have any feelings or emotions attatched to it at all. I'm so bad that I literally can't cry anymore... I didn't even cry at my fathers funeral. On the other hand, regarding what happened in my last relationship, Idid have a lot of pain associated with that. I felt nauseated, I even felt faint and dizzy, when I realized what was going. And I most definately felt brainwashed.
I think that getting to the bottom of all that happens to us requires us to step out of our comfort zone a little bit, but it gets better. I know when I first started feeling misrable Istarted wondering what use emotions had at all because it seemed so terrible and they were all bad, but I had to face them to explore them and start getting better.
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Hi Darren and Ami. I thought there must be a catalyst, which changes your mindset. I would love to hear the story of how you got to that point, Darren. Ami, you have shared your story so openly on the board and made yourself so vulnerable to all of us. Thank you. I'll have to put some more thought into what I am trying to escape from, now I have got to this point. Darren, you mentioned something about getting some hobbies. I suspect one of my problems is having too much time on my hands. Before I used to be a perfectionist (and a carer) so I filled my time cleaning, shopping, tidying up, ironing,washing, wiping down the walls, fixing anything that I could fix ie the flyscreen inserts, mowing, watering, pruning etc. I kept myself so busy, I hardly had time to think. Now that I am myself and not driven by my mother's desires to be perfect, I am a complete slob. I only do what has to be done and even then it is only if I want to do it. I do work in the garden because I love it but I don't do a lot. I seem to have so many empty hours to fill. A friend told me when he gave my drinking 30 years, ago, he didn't have much time for anything else. He was surprised how much time he suddenly had on his hands. Now he is so busy, he wonders how he ever found the time to drink.
Kim in Oz
I'm a horrible slob myself. I think things like depression can make you that way. My apartment was a train wreck, but we actually got it clean this weekend.
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Dear Darren
I can see that you have already "opened up" a lot. I see you having a little hope that "maybe" you CAN get better. I felt that way when I found the board,too.
The board is the most healing it has ever been,since I have been hereIMO)
I think that you will be safe to be "you" and share ,as you see fit. It is SO hard to share honestly . I do it b/c I must ,if I am to heal. It is the only way I know to reclaim my "stolen" core.
Life has little value when you are numb and I have been numb long enough.
I think that if you stay on the board, you will find your "lost self".It is probably more buried than lost.
Take your time and trust yourself to heal in a way in which you are comfortable. Love and a Hug, Ami
I've actually stopped by here a few times before I ever made an account and started joining in. This site in combination with a few others did wonders for getting me better and out of my situation. I think my major problem was healing the damage done by my last relationship, and I've been very successful. I was able to forgive the person who hurt me so badly and stop blaming them, and it set me free of so much. I wish my other problems were closer to the surface because its hard to work on them when they aren't. I am getting more motivated to work on things than Ihave been for a while.
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Yeah, I think depression makes you a slob--bleh(lol) . Ami
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Darre......i understand what you're saying. i really think its hard for us who have been abused to come out of our comfort zones and feel uncomfortable even in pain as we start to face everything that happened. Afterall that is what a comfort zone provides isnt it. Ami and i have been comparing notes and she shares the same sort of insights into her feelings too. Thanks James
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Darren i just got an insight that seems real. I relate so much to what you say about yourself and isolation . I do the same thing did and still do the same thing and i remember for long periods of time as a child i was simply to afraid to leave my home. Its crazy, but makes sense with what i mentioned above that I was so brainwashed that i eventually got to the point where i thought the danger was on the outside when it was really coming from inside. My nasty parents to be exact. Sometimes i was abused outside but i was already set up to fail in this area too because of the massive but very real threat from my parents. I was left defenseless because of my fear of them Its really starting to piss me off. Thanks James
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Yah, I lived in my room and nowhere else. As I grew older the only time I'd leave would be to go get some drugs. I wouldn't be comfortable out in the world though, and I'd head back home as quickly as possible. My father sat, and slept, on the couch... and never left. Despite not having a curfew, I'd sneak out of my window to avoid him if I had to go anywhere. It didn't matter if it was midnight or the middle of the day. I didn't even wanna come out to go to the restroom. Thinking about it today, I didn't really how much shame and embarrassment I had about all that. Between my mother and father, they completely destroyed any confidence or sense of self I could have developed. I grew up and went to school and didn't interact with my peers like everybody else. I didn't just have low self esteem, I had ZERO esteem. Can you have less than that? I could not interact with people because I just didn't feel I was good enough. That was long ago, but gosh... I was messed up. I think I may have been turning into an avoidant personality at that stage. I wanted to be a part of everything, I wanted friends and people in my life, to be cool, and popular. But my esteem would have none of that.
I used to think I developed better self esteem and gained my confidence, but I'm not so sure anymore. I think I just made a science out of ignoring it and its all in there somewhere still waiting for me to face it. Maybe I just stopped feeling bad about it and accepted myself the way I was. I'm probably over confident now, but my self esteem and self is trashed very badly. I'm glad to know it, though, cuz I can fix that.
One of the weird things I realized is that... with my ex... I got brainwashed pretty badly. I still can't decide if I feel she did it intentionally or not. but I came to the conclusion I let it happen. I even helped. I told myself I was a failure, and bad, and not good enough, and spent a great deal of time brainwashing myself. In a weird way, I think I'm my own worst enemy. They may have started it, but I kept it going. I'm doing my best to treat myself better =)
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Darren i don't think it's weird at all that you might think you your own worst enemy. Those parents are still alive inside sabotaging you. I do the same. Boundaries are a key in straightening this sort of enmeshemnt out IMO. I always avoided my dad. Sneaking out windows and tiptoeing past him hoping he wouldn't notice me.to bad they put front doors in the front. I'm lucky he was gone during the week but then NM took over rather than just being his backup. Everytime i did anything i was corrected, it seems unbelieveable now. He always insited on buying hoses on big corner lots. I wound up edging with scissors a lot. He liked it perfect and liked to see me sufferbecause i wasn't perfect. Mealtimes were the worst. he had me prisoner then and took advantage of this. Grilled me and shamed the whole way. Constantly after me even if i touched a fork/spoon to the plate so that it made a sound. by the time I went to college i had a phobia against eating at tables (still bothers me) By the time my friends had got their food i had already finshed and left. I probably looked something like a wild animal feedin on road kill as fast as meals took place. All to escape him in my head. Its nothing short of a miracle i haven't died from some sorta stomach disorder. Best James
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Darren ...i was thinking about what you said about ZERO self esteem. You asked can there be anything worse than that. I might say yes because in the end i turned totally against myself and abused ME. Maybe thats whats happens when self esteem starts moving into the negative zone? just a thought Best James
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I UNDERSTAND your post about turning against yourself. It is such a hopeless, hopeless place.If you are not your best friend, you are in big trouble. It is one of the worst feelings in the world. Thank you for having the courage to talk about it, James. You have helped me so much with your courage! Love Ami
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darren - just reading this great topic now. I've been depressed too. It's kind of like a town that you live in and then when other people talk about it, you recognize the common landmarks. Like feeling unworthy of anything - oh yeah - I think we must have lived on the same block of Depressedville.
I had these random thoughts and bits to share...
Mainly I wanted to say about numbness, and maybe about depression too (but I haven't thought that through), that numbness is there for a damn good reason, surely. The reason was probably so that you could survive your life.
My T helped me see that about my defenses - numbness, denial, minimizing, cynicism, humor, I forget what others - and also that, you know, the numbness is worthy of respect for its power to protect you as much as it did. On the other hand, then there is a time to start to grow again when the nuclear winter is finally ending.
I hope that as you feel safe and ready, the numbness could start to dissipate and you can pursue freeing up the feelings in a safe way for you.
I think that I became accustomed to living in depression because there was no reason to get excited about stuff mostly for most of my growing up years. I mean it was all about endurance. Sometimes with friends we had some blow off the steam kind of reckless fun, you know. But that's not about... joy. So I got used to living that way. It's a habit. It was when life didn't work well that I started to actively pursue change. I could see that it just wasn't working. And you know what, I didn't even go after the whole thing. I just pulled on a thread, here and there, and over time the whole damn sweater came unravelled and that wasn't even the plan.
I still have these ice patches of numbness around areas. Less areas. But I can kind of notice the ice patches for what they are more now where the feelings are dead.
darren I think it's really good that you have these insights and can make decisive moves from them. That sounds like a good sign that your compass is not broken.
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Darren i don't think it's weird at all that you might think you your own worst enemy. Those parents are still alive inside sabotaging you. I do the same. Boundaries are a key in straightening this sort of enmeshemnt out IMO. I always avoided my dad. Sneaking out windows and tiptoeing past him hoping he wouldn't notice me.to bad they put front doors in the front. I'm lucky he was gone during the week but then NM took over rather than just being his backup. Everytime i did anything i was corrected, it seems unbelieveable now. He always insited on buying hoses on big corner lots. I wound up edging with scissors a lot. He liked it perfect and liked to see me sufferbecause i wasn't perfect. Mealtimes were the worst. he had me prisoner then and took advantage of this. Grilled me and shamed the whole way. Constantly after me even if i touched a fork/spoon to the plate so that it made a sound. by the time I went to college i had a phobia against eating at tables (still bothers me) By the time my friends had got their food i had already finshed and left. I probably looked something like a wild animal feedin on road kill as fast as meals took place. All to escape him in my head. Its nothing short of a miracle i haven't died from some sorta stomach disorder. Best James
I can really relate to this. I don't know exactly what was wrong with my father, but he evoked these same kinds of feelings in me. I don't really know why, but of all the things that happened to me it made me the angriest and bothered me the most. There was just a constant air of manipulation an controlling behavior. We got to the point where we didn't eat at the table either, and it wasn't until recently I realized why I was uncomfortable when I sat at one with other people.
I've been realizing more and more things like this. One problem I used to have was going to social gatherings... holidays with my girlfriends family or work celebrations. I would be SO resentful that I had to go, and I'd be grumpy. And I'd just want to get away as soon as possible. I didn't like being in those situations. But strangly, once I realized why I felt that way I didn't feel the same anymore. I hated holidays because I wasn't used to being welcomed into a family, and I felt very out of place. Somewhere under the surface I was being reminded that I don't really have any family. Once I knew why I had those feelings, they kinda went away. I wont say that I look forward to social occasions now, but I appreciate them on some level and I'm no longer filled with dread. I figure I have tons of stuff in me I can find to fix in those ways. Someday I'll figure out exactly why I seek to avoid people.
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Darren........well written and well spoken. Maybe what you fear and find protection still by isolation is similar in the valuable insights you so accurately describe. We expect without knowing others to be like members of our abusive family of origin. And as this old unprocessed fear lives still repressed in the unconscious brain, we fail to make the connection sometimes in the adult life that other people NOW are not the same, and hence maybe the self protection thru isolation needed THEN can lose it's grip on us today as we find the danger no longer exists and we are able to move into the freedom of adult life.....Best, James
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THat is BIG, Darren. I need to face the inner roots of fears ,of many things and do exactly what you did ,so I can get free.Thanks Darren. You might not realize that you have good sense about many things. Hugs Ami
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Darren........well written and well spoken. Maybe what you fear and find protection still by isolation is similar in the valuable insights you so accurately describe. We expect without knowing others to be like members of our abusive family of origin. And as this old unprocessed fear lives still repressed in the unconscious brain, we fail to make the connection sometimes in the adult life that other people NOW are not the same, and hence maybe the self protection thru isolation needed THEN can lose it's grip on us today as we find the danger no longer exists and we are able to move into the freedom of adult life.....Best, James
Yup, thats how I see it. We aren't really abnormal at all, we just developed a lot of defenses at a young age that don't serve us well anymore as adults. I suppose my sense of self and my esteem is so fragile that I just wont let anybody into a position that might endanger that. Turn out people are more likely to care about me and accept me than destroy me though =) Imagine that.
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THat is BIG, Darren. I need to face the inner roots of fears ,of many things and do exactly what you did ,so I can get free.Thanks Darren. You might not realize that you have good sense about many things. Hugs Ami
Thanks Ami! =) You'll get free someday.
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Darren....exactly. I think as do others that our fears survive because we still repress the old original experiences and suppressed feelings. We still dont know how intense the original feelings were. I found it key to find these and once known and felt we understand why we feel the way NOW, that sometimes appears irrational and difficut to explain or change. Ultimately its about the chemistry of our brain and how it functions in order to ensure our survival. Read my last 2 posts to Ami on the "sexual abuse" thread. James
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Darren....something else. As children we are very vulnerable and rely on our caregivers as protection. When parents fail to provide this and present a danger to our very self one of our brains' automatic and unconscious solutions to protect us is the abilty for us to form illusions thereby escaping the pain we cannot feel then. Abuse does exactly this......as we are abused the tremendous pain we feel as the child without protection fearing death cannot be carried by the child alone. Illusions then form in its mind where he/she begins to think its about himself this assures better control and provides protection in his thinking. He feels more in control. Breaking these illusions produce a lot of pain as an adult but what we are feeling is the pain of the child back THEN. The very real fear of death by the child still survives in the adult and thats why we so strongly resist change and have a difficult time understanding why this occurs. How many of us as adults live now is really how were were then. All of this seems real because of our repression of very strong and dangerous feelings. Difficult to break down that sort of defense system. Trusting others is a good place to start if they are trustworth and we feel safe as we share old fears we have been unable to process before. James
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Darren....you might want to visit the topic Leahs life and see what i posted there. I have been able to process traumatic memories as far back as 2 months old. I see them in feeling form and then know the fear i felt then. In this particular post i wrote of one of the most intense feelings i have ever know. I wound up hidding in the bathtub recently before i found it's source. Can you imagine what would out of the clear blue drive a grown man to seek safety in a tub? I have never felt something that intense in the arena of fear.. It was just the way it was then not now but with this very important insight i'm freerer than ever to challenge and move past old fears and things really are changing. It's just amazing IMO. James
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Darren....something else. As children we are very vulnerable and rely on our caregivers as protection. When parents fail to provide this and present a danger to our very self one of our brains' automatic and unconscious solutions to protect us is the abilty for us to form illusions thereby escaping the pain we cannot feel then. Abuse does exactly this......as we are abused the tremendous pain we feel as the child without protection fearing death cannot be carried by the child alone. Illusions then form in its mind where he/she begins to think its about himself this assures better control and provides protection in his thinking. He feels more in control. Breaking these illusions produce a lot of pain as an adult but what we are feeling is the pain of the child back THEN. The very real fear of death by the child still survives in the adult and thats why we so strongly resist change and have a difficult time understanding why this occurs. How many of us as adults live now is really how were were then. All of this seems real because of our repression of very strong and dangerous feelings. Difficult to break down that sort of defense system. Trusting others is a good place to start if they are trustworth and we feel safe as we share old fears we have been unable to process before. James
This is very profound, James.I must feel many deep, scary feelings that were there when I was "forced" to give up my power.
I CAN understand hiding in the bathtub---very well.
When I was in college, in the basement of my dorm, were the professors offices. At night, no one was there,so I would sit in the dark, curled in a ball.
I MUST be my own mother. I have abdicated my life ,up to this point. My H is my substitute mother--bleh. . I thought I found my "good" mother, and I found my "real' mother.
I have been looking for my mother in everyone and everything,and still are.
My answer is to BE my mother, a good one, this time.
The thought seems daunting,but has a sliver of wonder and hope , too.
Hugs to you, James Ami
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Darren....you might want to visit the topic Leahs life and see what i posted there. I have been able to process traumatic memories as far back as 2 months old. I see them in feeling form and then know the fear i felt then. In this particular post i wrote of one of the most intense feelings i have ever know. I wound up hidding in the bathtub recently before i found it's source. Can you imagine what would out of the clear blue drive a grown man to seek safety in a tub? I have never felt something that intense in the arena of fear.. It was just the way it was then not now but with this very important insight i'm freerer than ever to challenge and move past old fears and things really are changing. It's just amazing IMO. James
Thanks for the suggestion, James, I will definately take a look at it. I think as a child that I learned to escape into fantasy worlds to avoid the feelings of the moment, and I'm still lost in it today. To this day I still work out conflicts (and sometimes create them) entirely in my imagination. If I have bad feelings, or desire good ones, or have a conflict, I create imaginary scenarios to deal with it and avoid reality altogether. As a child it kept me safe, but as an adult its not practical and a little weird... its a hard habit to break and unhealthy. I'd like to deal with life in a more adult way, but tis hard when something like this was ingrained in you at such a young age. If I have a problem, I can't work it out, but just imagine thats its all different. As I grow older, its becoming less effective and I'm left with dealing with these issues in a real way... though... its a bit like being thrown into the world without any of the tools other people have.
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Ami... in my case the thought of a mother isn't such a good thing since the one i had is N. In my life i sorta use that term as learning to give myself protection and the care that i never had. It's only now that i'm really facing what happened so that is a challenging and difficult learning process for me to develop. I'm so sorry you felt like you had to curl up in a ball that. But i'ts nice you could allow yourself to do that. Kindness towards your ownself!! James
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ami i had those scary feelings inside but i really didn't know they existed, at least not consciously. For me i felt it important to have both intellectual and emotional of awareness of this to move out of it's grip. I was so lost, really had no idea what was going on, i feel i gained a understanding of what had happened thru reading books on the subject. Miller and lots of others. Eventually finding these feelings began to be the focus of what i thought a recovery might be about so thats where i headed as best i could. I'm sure there must be many aproaches to this. I have my therapist and see that she's been trying to provide me with a environment that allows me to explore myself, safely, hopefully in ever increasingly deeper ways. It seems like one feeling as it occurs leads to another going deeper until i finds a bedrock of sorts that signals original damage as a child. I'm not sure if one can ever undone everthing but it's probably not necessary. My defense system works in some areas but its simply overwhelmed in others and i think thats what gives me so many problems. I am making progress in these areas though just as i described. I feel i make the most progress when i open up about something painful. Is this similar to what you do? James
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Hi Darren........I can relate to what you wrote. It was the same way in my life. I retreated and lots of times lived in an imaginary world where i seemed to play over and over old traumas hoping to "think" out a new ending. It kept me in a continuous loop and isolated. Ultimately it is the old experiences i suffered and the resulting fear that i had THEN that keeps this sorta thing alive. When i break this pattern and reach out to other people and share my fears/feelings i get different results and can see this helps so much. The old fear of my parents keeps me stuck but doing it with people other than my FOO really helps me to see that there is a different way. No feelings in my family were acceptable. the only ones they tolerated were "happy" ones. How could i be happy in such an environment? I had to leave my true feelings behind and force my self to their idea of who i should be. Inside i was so angry and that was so unacceptable to them and my fear of that alone grew inside my head because i had no way to express it and no one to help me understand myself with compassion. I feel similar that i was turned out into a strange world of other people where i did not have the emotional skills to get by. James
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Your last post about being inculcated by your abusive parents and then being turned out in the world with no "emotional skills" is what I mean by being"underwater".
You( and I) had lies and distortions we HAD to buy in order to survive. We had to EAT the bitter, toxic food (lies and diistortions about ourselves),in order to survive. It was NOT our fault, just as my current state of shock , after Scott's death was involuntary.
We had to morph and become "weird" in order to survive.
Then, we blamed ourselves when we had "issues". We beat ourselves up for our deficits.
As Alice Miller says, the rage and blame needs to go back on the abusers. That is one of our goals ,in healing. You are doing that, James.
Love Ami