Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: James on March 22, 2008, 12:08:24 PM
-
I struggle to understand my feelings of fear now, about both women and men. This is a symtom and the burden i carry from the abuse i suffered.. With men i have had a difficult time facing my real feelings abt what happened. My father shamed me to the core and i took this as i was "something less than a man". I fear this might be true and think that other men will see it in me if i get to close and might push me away and that will hurt like it did with my dad and then i might find that i really am less than a man. I keep them at a distance.This fear prevents me from developing intimate relationships with members of my same sex and that hurts and frustrates me. With women it's a little different. Here i find myself again having failed intimate relationships because i fear being swallowed up in their identity like my mom did when she tried to absorb me. (emotional sexual abuse and other) I ultimately protect myself from this trauma by never sharing with them that i feel like "i'm not man enough" and fear i can't live up to their expectations. I worry about being rejected if i share these feelings with them. Mostly right now i'm sorta stuck being the kid i was but want so much the understanding, love and fellowship with both sexes so i can overcome these feelings of inadequacy and find what i desire. Healthy esteem and positive intimate relationships with both sexes........James
-
As a woman who's been swallowed up in relationships by other women - and also men - I can relate, James.
Having the desire and the hope for intimacy is well more than half the battle though, I think... and I believe that in time, and with practicer, the rest will come - for you and for each of us.
Carolyn
-
Carolyn........i believe this. I appreciate you sharing that that you've experienced something similar. It eases my feeling of aloness and helps reduce my fears....... thank you James
-
Dear James
You have SO much courage. I have so much admiration for your ability to be gut level honest. I feel the same way you do. Right now, I am completely exhausted b/c I have a friend over and she is telling me her problems. *I*, now ,after Scott's death cannot take even a small amount of stress ,w/out being exhausted.
I am the same as I was before BUT worse, b/c I don't have the reserves to carry the fear and defense mechanisms--bleh.
I can't help the numbness I feel around woman(more than men, but probably men, too)
Today, I feel discouraged b/c s/times the climb up seems so big. I wish I did not have to climb up mountains ,which I should have climbed in childhood.
However, YOU are doing it and not giving up when you could, easily, I am sure.
Thanks for being so real, James. With Respect and Love, Ami
-
Ami......i'm sorry that you are struggling with your friend right now. Exhaustion makes one feel more weary to begin with. Maybe you could not set boundaries as a child but you can do it now! ((((((((((((((AMI))))))))))))) Love James
-
I struggle to understand my feelings of fear now, about both women and men. This is a symtom and the burden i carry from the abuse i suffered.. With men i have had a difficult time facing my real feelings abt what happened. My father shamed me to the core and i took this as i was "something less than a man". I fear this might be true and think that other men will see it in me if i get to close and might push me away and that will hurt like it did with my dad and then i might find that i really am less than a man. I keep them at a distance.This fear prevents me from developing intimate relationships with members of my same sex and that hurts and frustrates me. With women it's a little different. Here i find myself again having failed intimate relationships because i fear being swallowed up in their identity like my mom did when she tried to absorb me. (emotional sexual abuse and other) I ultimately protect myself from this trauma by never sharing with them that i feel like "i'm not man enough" and fear i can't live up to their expectations. I worry about being rejected if i share these feelings with them. Mostly right now i'm sorta stuck being the kid i was but want so much the understanding, love and fellowship with both sexes so i can overcome these feelings of inadequacy and find what i desire. Healthy esteem and positive intimate relationships with both sexes........James
Hi James. I can relate because my childhood experience brought me to a similar place. I was stuck between the engulfment of my codependent mother, and the non attention of my self absorbed father. I understand now a positive father influence is necessary to make a successful transition to relationships with others outside the family system. The positive father helps the offspring have the confidence to establish connections with "the world" both male and female. My father wasn't so much an active physical abuser. He just didn't do anything, other than talk about himself. I was left to deal with the world on my own, without a positive "voice" from an encouraging parent figure.
Now the challenge is to create the positive voice for ourselves.
-
Dear James,
I wll tell you what happened. My friend was here. She was telling me about her H,who IS the worst H I have ever seen, and I have seen quite a few(lol)
I wanted to give to her,but after a half an hour, I felt exhausted and shaky. I told her that I wished that I could help ,but I have very few reserves, and not even enough to listen to problems, right now. I said that I was very sorry,but I had to go. She said(nastily),"You were NOT very good (i.e. strong) before. I said,"That is true,but I am WORSE, now."(lol)
I guess that I need to respect the physical state of shock ,which I have . I am told by other parents ,who lost a child, that I may have it for a year.
Also, I am facing the truth about my M, her pathological selfishness. It is a bite--a real bite.Part of my emotional illness(the biggest part) was that I wanted her to be a loving and caring mother. I chose to believe that lie, rather than face the truth, which is she would destroy me to feel a little better about herself ---bleh.
Only s/one with N parents could understand .
I have SUCH a rage against her ,right now. Thanks for caring,James, and for your hug. It reached through cyberspace to me. Ami
PS I always think of Kelly ,with this. Many M's who lose children never get their periods ,again. Mine is two months late .Kelly, you can imagine how I feel----bleh.
-
Hi Silver lining..........thank you having the courage to share with me your own story in this area.......James
-
Ami..........i am sorry that you went thru your friends visit like it was. You are experiencing so many difficult issues that weigh one down. i understand how it feels to be so burdened and it feels like one more issue might just be too much. i can't imagine more pain than dealing with grief over the loss of a child and at the same time having to face the reality that your mother showed little if any love to you back then. It has to be so overwhelming at times for. I still have difficulty setting boundaries simply because i'm afraid sometimes. I'm glad you set one today even though what she said might be very painful. Its not about you. You are becoming a very strong person thru your honesty and courage..................Hug James
-
Love You, James. You are right about boundaries. I learned a good lesson, today, about them ,anyway---bleh(lol) Hugs to you, Ami
PS I guess what is happening is good-everything is shaken up .Nothing is the same BUT what am I leaving behind? Dysfunction--Right?
We will get there,kid!
-
A real incident how this plays out in my life occured recently. Last fall i met a girl i liked. I havent spoken to her in 1 month and think i have figured out what i have been doing wrong. I am starting to see the old FOO dynamics. My parents they actually forbid any feelings and needs of mine. I became lost essentially and never really knew how to develop intimate relationships and explore my feelings while allowing others to touch me with theirs. I have kept a wall around myself and never understood what intimacy really was and how walls don't play into this very well. Again i could only get so close, i probably pushed her away by projecting in some way my history on her. Possibly causing her pain or at the very least frustration. I am not sure what she really thinks since i havent talked with her. It makes me nervous to think of calling and explainingg what has been going in my head all these years. I dont mind apologizing if it was something i did, but the fear of rejection prevents me from doing this. The thought of this happening triggers fear of my parents crushing rejection. Recently my therapist told me she shes me as having intimacy problems and i agree. I see true intimacy as requiring vulnerability on both sides and this feels very challenging. I basically feel flawed and letting someone know this causes me a great deal of anxiety..........James
-
Dear James,
I think that when we are abused, we develop terrible shame. Shame makes us want to hide our true selves ,so we don't get rejected,again. Our pain from FOO (family of origin) rejection is so intense that although we want a close connection with others, we often sabatage it, too.
It is a continual push and pull(toward and away from intimacy) which is VERY painful and upsetting.
Before we can allow s/one to see us, we have to have enough 'core" to survive iF they reject us. That is really hard for us, as abused people.
Intimacy is "in to me you see". This involves having enough self to even allow another person to see us.
As to your situation, I am not sure what to do. I think that if you ask YOUR gut and heart, you will get the answer. Our heart always knows the answers ,if we will listen.
I feel for you, James. I suffer with the same fears of intimacy . Relationships hurt, even if you are the sanest person in the world. I think the key is knowing that you can survive ,if the worst happens and the person rejects you.
Relationships are always a risk, for everyone. It just hurts so much more when you have been abused.
I would think of every chance you take as a way to build strength in yourself, no matter WHAT happens. That will take the pressure off and you will "win" either way, even though it may hurt. However, you can share it here and people will help you.
Love and Hugs Ami
-
Hi Ami ......thank you for your valuable insights. It soothes me to hear your reflections about this matter as i can see you are right. I am very sensitive from the abuse and fear rejection and being hurt all over again. This may be my first step in trying to overcome this particular problem. I really do have the option to take it one step at a time rather than rushing to achieve everything all at once. In the past i often rushed to change something and then i self -sabotaged by feeling like a failure when things dont work out, sometimes retreating back inside for long periods. I did not see it until now, that this was exactly the way i was treated back then as they placed unreasonable demands on me and offered no help or understanding. Often i felt like a failure and was rejected by them. I see i've been doing this all along to my self. I think your idea of building a core inner strength is a great idea and perhaps this along with time and not being too hard on myself may help prevent the feelings of failure that can keep me isolated and lonely. ii think i need patience and understanding from others and also my self. Hopefully i will find there are other people out there who are different from my parents. I think i've been stuck fearing their old reactions in the eyes of other people. Ever since i was small i had the sense that the truth was where it was really at. I could not really describe the feeling back then but now with age i see i was right. Glad you spoke up i dont feel so alone now and your sharing this helps give me faith that others will understand..........love James
-
Dear James,
I have gotten in to many self sabataging and destructive patterns in my relationships. I was replaying old FOO tapes--bleh. I am finding my core.
The core is essential. If not,it will be a fake relationship.
If we don't have access to our core, we cannot share it with s/one else, which IS the definition of intiimacy.
I think that there is no better human experience that letting s/one see you and vice versa. Emotional intimacy is the hardest,but the most beautiful intimacy.
You are right to see finding your core as the first step.
You have changed so much from your first posts on the board, that you hardly seem like the same person. Do you feel very different?
Love Ami
-
Ami.....I agree with everything you wrote and yes i think i'm feeling a lot better. Hoping it will last and take hold.................Thanks James
-
Dear James,
James, I am so glad you feel better.Truth will heal,even though facing the expressing truth hurts. At least,it is a 'healing"hurt,in a way. It is not just recycling "garbage' and not getting anywhere.
We have all done that for too long(IMO)
At least ,with honesty, the pain produces s/thing--healing.
How are you, today, James? Hugs Ami
-
Ami....like you said the truth is healing. I am struck when i open a difficult area of my life, that the supressed feelings that pour out sometimes can feel awful and i experience it as being of the now. The more i do this its becoming clearer those are mostly my feelings of the past that were never consciously experienced. As i do this more and more i do feel better. I am doing well today how are you feeling?.................Thanks.James
-
Dear James
I think that many people never heal b/c of fear of their feelings. I used to be very afraid of my feelings. I did not want to touch them ,with a 10 foot pole(lol).
My friend told me that I HAD to go inward, not run away.I have been healing ,as I honor my feelings. They are there for a reason, as a fire alarm is.
We don't ignore the fire alarm or the house will burn. I think it is the same with feelings.
We,who were abused, were forced to push normal feelings down. We had to survive. We were not in "growth" mode,but survival mode. So, now that we are adults we need a course in "Remedial living"(lol)
My Aunt "knows" about life and herself b/c she did not NEED to go in to denial. She did not need to shove normal needs and desires in to her body and psyche.
We did. They must come out until we can see outselves ,honestly.Then, we will be on a level playing field, with non abused people.
I am getting there.
You are, too,James. Love and Hugs, Ami
-
James,
What if you take it down to an individual level... Try to forget about "men" and "women."
If you meet Joe, and Joe is a nice guy, you might bond. If that happens, great. If not, so be it. Now, imagine you meet Joe and you become good friends and after a while he tells you a dark secret. How would you feel about him? It is likely, as you are friends, that you would understand him from the place you know him now. Whatever he did or what happened is history. Do you believe you would like him less???
If you meet a girl and she seems nice, hang out together. It doesn't have to be anything sweeping or crushing. If you enjoy her company, great. If not, there is always the door!!!!
Remember, you can make the choice now.
And remember to keep it at an individual level.
Love, Beth
-
Gratitude.......What you say makes a lot of sense to me right now. I've been moving back in time to areas where original damage occurred and see that in my mind i've been overinflating lots of fears that just aren't real today. These fears were part of my original FOO trauma. I have lost a good bit of my protective shield recently and i feel very vulnerable and that so contrary to the way i survived in my childhood home. Keeping this in mind i'm beginning to believe there are other people in the world who might understand my feelings and i can work things out slowly as i develop relationships where i trust that others won't hurt me. Your note to me feels like one of those. I am finding out there is no need to rush things but taking it one step at a time makes climbing this mountain seem more achievable......Thank you James
-
I think the crucial factor in having any relationship is the ability to trust ourselves, first. We have to be able to take rejection without feeling it will kill us--hurt us,yes, but not kill us.
We have to feel that we can protect ourselves, as a first priority, in the relationship, any relationship(IMO)
I am just learning these things,now.When you are abused, you doubt yourself, terribly. You blame yourself, terribly.You lose trust in your ability to navigate life. You are set up to get in to bad relationships. It is almost a sure set up to be abused, all over again.
I learned by screwing up, royally. First I trusted my parents when I should not have. Then, my H.
Now, I am trying to love and "own" myself, first.That has to be the first priority, not another person(IMO). When it is time for a relationship, God will bring it.(IMO) Often, it is effortless. That happened with me. It WAS effortless how we bonded. It was "right",not a push.
James, you have insight, charm, kindness and intelligence. You will be a great partner after you find the "you" who is "you.
Your parents made it necessary for you to have to "dig" for what should have been yours, as a child's birthrigh---,confidence, trust in yourself etc.
It is there, just buried under lies you HAD to swallow. There is a beautiful person inside you for you to know and to share with another. You will know when the right person comes to you. I feel strongly about this.Your past struggles may make you deeper and MORE capable of a deep connection. I am thinking that it can happen this way.
Love Ami
-
Ami.....you really do have a great way of making clear many of my feelings that i can't exactly explain in my own words just yet. It feels like you lighting my path so to speak. Thank you.. ........James
-
Thank you, Sweetie ,for saying that. GS lit my path after Scott died. I know how it feels not to feel all alone. It is MY pleasure, James.
You lighten MY load, too.
A Big Hug to You, Ami
-
Ami....in spite of everything that has happened in the past with my dad i wrote him a letter tonight and all it said was "i will always be here, if you ever need a friend"........I think i finally realized i'm worth something and no one can ever take that away from me again. .............love, James
-
James, that moved me very much.
When you can extend your own strength, take it or leave it, even to one who was too weak to be strong for you...
That's what I see as manhood.
I admire your courage and salute your progress, which is amazing!
hugs
Hops
-
Ami....in spite of everything that has happened in the past with my dad i wrote him a letter tonight and all it said was "i will always be here, if you ever need a friend"........I think i finally realized i'm worth something and no one can ever take that away from me again. .............love, James
You ARE worth s/thing James. That is a very big revelation. I am getting it, too. Our value is inherent . We "took" our value by how our abusers valued us,but that was wrong. It was a distortion.
Last night, s/thing clicked in me and I realized that I DON"T have to keep punishing myself, so I can continue my NM's pattern. I was afraid to let it go, for some reason. Actually, I did not know I was doing it(i.e punishing myself ).
I see that I CAN love myself.It was a visceral change.
It was a big breakthrough. You will get there, too, James.
We did not come this far, to stop halfway in our healing!
I am thinking of you, today, when you go to the therapist.
IF she doesn't appreciate your growth, she could be threatned by it. Just a thought. I could be 1000% wrong,but one of my therapists never wanted to let me go, as long as I had a checkbook--bleh.
I am NOT saying this about her,but always trust your OWN heart,above anyone else. That is one of our big lessons, too. Love Ami
-
Hi, James. I can relate to what you're feeling. My NF was so into terrorizing me that I never developed the senses or ability to read social clues or cues that would have told me when a person was "safe" for me or not. I ended up picking lots and lots of dangerous people - dangerous to me. Their vibes were so much like my NF's that they were all familiar to me. If it felt familiar, I went with it and ended up hurt and totally not understanding how it happened.
With my NM, it was pretty much the same 'cept she had/has socipathic tendencies. In similar fashion, I picked up on these and the N behaviors in others as familiar. A therapist taught me a little about recognizing clues in dangerous people before I got too involved. It was a matter of changing my focus from my needs and my feelings when I was with these dangerous people to focusing on what was happening. It has helped - now when I meet new people, I wait and watch more to see how their behavior speaks to me, if any of my old memories or feelings get triggered.
In short, I used to lead with my needs, allowing my needs to be in charge. That made me a needy friend and one who always let it "hang out", thus, I was easy pickings for those who were dangerous. Does that make any sense?
I don't have the watching and waiting down perfectly yet, but I'm a way better off than I used to be. I don't let people feed off me, and, as a result, I have two of the best friends money can't buy in my life. I guess, like you, I stopped feeling afraid of rejection and started protecting myself from ones who would turn on me if I gave them a chance.
Don't know if you can relate to this, but it's what happened to me.
towrite
-
James,
Writing the letter to your dad shows that you are a kind and good person. I must say I am not there yet with my mother. I am not sure if I can get there again. I tried to have a relationship with her and it was a lopsided deal. I am proud of you for being so strong!
Lots of love,
Beth
-
Thinking of you ,today, James. Hugs, Ami
-
Ami............i will use your description of "being underwater" if you don't mind. You know I have been underwater for years now, struggling all the time...fighting for my life....an amazing thing happened, when i surrendered into the pain and quit struggling it carried me to the surface..........love, James
-
Gosh, James, Could you explain more, if you care to.
-
Towrite............I relate to everything you have written here. It Especially the part where you say your needs were leading you and everything was hanging out then you found yourself prey to many others. I think finding that insight is so valuable and important. Seeing that in my own life allowed me to develop safety for myself and eventually has led to greater healing in this way. Thank you for sharing...........Best, James
-
Gratitude28......I might sound a little philosophical but it is my belief ..All... human beings are good and loving deep inside....in our original state..... It seems many of us early on are injured from lack of love and the enormous pain we feel drives us away from who we are and then our lifes journey becomes one finding our way back home...............James
-
Hi Ami..........what i was saying is this. The struggle, was ultimately the avoidance of deep pain, resulting from early injuries. When i finally found the courage to quit running and surrendered, feeling the pain of what happened, not only did i not drown but this carried me to the surface, into a greater freedom....... I hope this makes better sense?........love, James
-
That makes sense, James. My underwater was the same thing. I am coming up slowly ,as I face the distotions, as I can. Talks to you later, Friend. Love Ami