Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: teartracks on June 04, 2008, 05:09:29 PM
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Hi everyone,
I've hung out on VESMB for a few years now. I've benefited from it. I feel vested in it. I want to continue to participate. Over those years, I've wanted to find a satisfying balance or if you please a protocol I could use personally for posting responses. The thing that trips me up most often is when to respond and when not to. I think of myself as a woman of few words. I'm still figuring out what part of my 'few words' self is authentic and which part stems from the undeniable remaining pathos of voicelessness. Then there is the question of schedules and time, and determining just how much time spent focusing on this board, it's members and its content is healthy? I experience some anxiety about finding the illusive healthy balance especially when determining when and to whom I should respond. Then I thought, tt, if you are half the woman you think you are, you can figure this out. :D So for now, I've decided to take Dr. Grossman as my model. True, he is our moderator, but he also participates on threads from time to time. And when he does, as far as I can tell, he only responds to comments or questions directed to him personally. Exceptions are when he is acting exclusively as moderator. He posts for holidays, birthdays or other celebrations. He also posts when a member experiences a tragedy. This approach seems a little austere (nothing against you Dr. G.) even to me, but it is at least a place for me to start and helps relieve the anxiety I've felt concerning what seemed like a serial randomness to my responses in the past.
So for now, I'm going to try using the above as a guideline when posting.
Have any of you had similar thoughts or misgivings like mine? Would love to hear from you.
tt
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Hi tt,
Yes, I have similar issues I'm dealing with. I'm think I'm more "talky" than you by nature, but still I can be struck dumb more often than I like. So, I don't know yet what my quiet times mean either. Just me? Or just Voicelessness?
This place has turned out for me the way real life often turns out for me. A big splash at first, or at times, then relegated to the sidelines. But now I realize I'm the one relegating myself to the sidelines. I even think it may turn out to be part of my nature. I just get worn out with it all sometimes. And I don't have as many of the same interests as lots of people do.
When I came back as Juno after posting so long as Pennyplant, I felt like a different version of myself. And that is good. I grew. But I also wanted to specifically limit myself because I tend to get addictive or habitual about the internet and this board. I wanted a way to have discipline. And so I mainly post on my own story thread on the other board. Very helpful in some ways. And very limited in others. Also, instructive as to how I operate and why I might so often be sidelined.
It's just a trial and error thing for me. I almost always read your posts. But I would say I'm not sure I "know" you all that well. Possibly a lot of people here think that about me as well. I just have a hard time being close to people. Even here. But I'm accepting that and figuring maybe I'll outgrow it someday. Or not.
I feel kind of self-centered doing most of my posting on the story board. But it's there for a reason and it helps me a lot. It seems like it has helped others too. I do hope I get outside of myself more someday.
So, is this related to what you mean? Your post does strike a chord with me even if I'm going off in a different direction here with my explanation.
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Have any of you had similar thoughts or misgivings like mine? Would love to hear from you.
tt
Yes.... very much so, tt... and also quite similarly to what Juno has expressed, as I tend toward addictive behavior and often struggle with time management.
Spent more time reading here yesterday than I have in months... and enjoyed it!... but - that must be a rare treat, for me, else I tend to get swamped and lose equilibrium.
I've found that - for me, it's best now if I limit myself to reading just a few members regularly, along with selected topics of curiousity or interest, instead of trying to keep up with all newcomers and happenings across the board. Wish I could do more, but that simply hasn't worked out well for me and I wind up feeling far too depleted.
Anyhow, I do understand your desire to set some sort of guideline for yourself and I think it's a great idea to try working along various patterns until you find one that works for you! After all, nothing is written in stone here. Does feel strange though... going from such active involvement to what feels like a very hit-and-miss deal, I know. Just feels to me like a case of - to everything there is a season.
Love to you, and great appreciation,
Carolyn
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Post at will.... tt.
Post at will.
Sometimes the heart needs to speak out more.... sometimes less.
I will say this.... shooting for an understated style.... isn't a bad thing: )
Lighter
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I found a fit.
Beats throwing one. :)
mud
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There have been times that I took a break.....unwittingly.......I just did not feel the need to come on. Then I had a trauma and came back for moral support. There have been a few times I have been here that certain people flood the board with topics and it becomes overwhelming to keep up so I just quit. Sometimes my life is so hectic that I cannot keep up either. Sometimes I am reading on my phone and if the posts are too long, the last part of sentences get cut off and that is frustrating and then I can only respond with 500 characters.
Sometimes the posts are redundant. Sometimes it feels like work drama where one person doesn't like or trust another one. Sometime it is warranted and sometimes not. Some people cannot spell sometimes and sometimes they can.....does that mean they are two different people??
I wish I could have a mental picture of folks. I have seen a few people and I "know" them better because I have a face with a name.....
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Absolutely. For one thing, I don't have an internet connection at home (PC, but no phone line to save $$) so I can only do it at work. Thus, I can't always get on or spend the kind of time I'd like.
Often I'd like to be able to respond, but due to these time issues the best I can do is try to read what I can. There are still people here whom I'd like to respond to and never have -- James, you being one of them -- and it's hard to do because of these restrictions.
A lot of the time I want to say something but don't know what. Honestly, my heart is there but I just don't know what to say. I hear so much pain and sadness, and although my family experience was hard, most of yours seems so much harder. I know it must be if you had an N for a parent or relative. I just had a brief (if horrendous) encounter.
And, I have struggled my whole life with feeling that I have something valid to say. I still feel that way. If nothing else it has really held me back in my career. But everywhere. I went on another -- ta da!!!! -- date this weekend, and although the guy was a little neurotic, he actually was very sweet, sort of innocent underneath; I could see that. He talked a lot, and he admitted that -- but a few times he explained that, since he'd married his high school sweetheart, he never had the chance to meet different kinds of women and see who he liked. Since I'm a listener, not a talker, he told me that I was depriving him of the privilege of knowing who I am. He's so right! That was better feedback than I could possibly have told him. (But still I couldn't talk. I'm good at responding but not at independently revealing. I just have to know someone before I can do that.)
Well, that doesn't seem to cogent. So yes, I struggle with this all the time and in all sorts of ways. I really carry so many of your struggles with me through the week, and it's hard to let you know that.
xoxo,
LC
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LC,
I think you're cogent as all heck.
And say a great deal with your gracefulness.
Sometimes form IS content.
Thank you for your lovely letter.
(It felt like a letter. Not a post.)
hugs
Hops
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TT, I'm grateful for this thread.
I don't know if it'll make any difference in my dependency, but I'll say that I know I use the board as a diversion from the adult things I fear or don't want to do.
I'm glad you offer this reminder that there are different ways of experiencing it.
Floating, then landing now and then, would make a lot more sense for me too.
(I am always open to being hollered at.)
love,
Hops
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Hops,
You make me smile! I wish you were my neighbor. You are so generous and uplifting and affirming to everyone here -- and always with style and panache and sincerity and true insight into the person you're responding to.
Good luck with the house. I'm in a somewhat similar situation. My dad died last October and left both my sister and I the house. She's the executrix (older, Golden child! But a good decision on his part nonetheless.) She can't sell it without my consent; I'd love to buy her out, but even though it's not much money, I don't have it and I couldn't afford the upkeep, anyway. I'm crushed. It's been in the family for almost 100 years. It's the only place I really have to call home. (I rent.) It's my grandmother's house -- the kind of place I can go to and be surrounded by memories. So, I know how you feel. Hope it all works out for you!
Thanks again. You are really a dear person.
LC
(Obviously I had nothing to do at work today, ha, ha, because I had time to spend here.)
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Hi Hops,
It's true. Everyone experiences everything differently.
Taking this route doesn't feel like floating and landing to me. Instead it feels structured. The randomness or lack of having a plan before felt more like floating and landing to me. A good example of the variety of experiences each of us has here.
You won't get hollered at by me. I've always appreciated and enjoyed your participation. I agree with LilyCat. You make me smile! I wish you were my neighbor. You are so generous and uplifting and affirming to everyone here -- and always with style and panache and sincerity and true insight into the person you're responding to. I like your wit too...
tt
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((((((((((((((((((((LC, TT))))))))))))))))))))))))
ego swelling
head expanding
panachefully,
Hops
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Hi Hops,
I've always appreciated and enjoyed your participation. I agree with LilyCat. You make me smile! I wish you were my neighbor. You are so generous and uplifting and affirming to everyone here -- and always with style and panache and sincerity and true insight into the person you're responding to. I like your wit too...
tt
Me, too! And you give great hugs!! :D
((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))) Happy Friday and wishes for a wonderful weekend, with love,
Carolyn
P.S. Oh, and I agree about LilyCat's post, as well... feels like reading a lovely letter from an old friend... very sweet and satisfying.
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Hi Carolyn,
Thank you for your sweet words. I really do appreciate them and everyone's.
I really like your quote at the end of your page. (Pride/Shame/Wisdom.) It completely sums up my N experience, on both a personal and congregational level.
Anyway, thanks -- and have a good weekend! Everyone.
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Hi LilyCat,
Since I'm a listener, not a talker, he told me that I was depriving him of the privilege of knowing who I am. He's so right! That was better feedback than I could possibly have told him. (But still I couldn't talk. I'm good at responding but not at independently revealing. I just have to know someone before I can do that.)
You know - I agree with your date. When we hold back too much, we may be denying the other person the blessing of getting to know us better. Being a good listenter is essential to building relationship. Sounds like you and I struggle along the same lines. I bet you gather a lot of information intuitively. In my mind it is just as reliable as engaging in more talk. One doesn't take the place of the other, though so. finding a balance is key, I suppose.
Thank you for 'talking' on this thread. I enjoy hearing your voice.
tt
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Hi Carolyn,
Thank you for your sweet words. I really do appreciate them and everyone's.
I really like your quote at the end of your page. (Pride/Shame/Wisdom.) It completely sums up my N experience, on both a personal and congregational level.
Anyway, thanks -- and have a good weekend! Everyone.
Hi, LilyCat,
You're welcome... and I'm glad you like that quote. It's from the Proverbs... chapter 11:2 and there's a little commentary afterward, in something I read, which says:
"Pride comes before a fall. It makes us deaf to constructive criticism, and blind to our faults. No wonder, sooner or later, the proud person trips up and falls down.
It is much wiser, says Solomon, to take the humble, inquiring approach that is characteristic of genius. Be teachable. Learn. Find out. Strive to improve and do better.
Notice that pride "comes". It may not be there to begin with, but it often comes hand in hand with success – with shame walking close behind."
Does sum up NPD, I agree.
I'm sorry you've encountered this within a congregation, on top of an individual relationship... that stinks. Been there, too, and it's bad enough one-on-one, without a whole gang of them lining up against you.
It's contagious, too, if you're immersed in it it long enough... I discovered that. After all that, I started stumbling over my own proud roots and still have plenty of work to do in digging those out, so... my quote is just as much a reminder to myself as anything.
Hope you enjoy your weekend and we'll see you again on Monday :)
Carolyn
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Blessings to you (((( LilyCat ))))
I very much enjoy your voice, and you being here.
And I hope you have a wonderful weekend.
Indeed,
I wish for ((((( everyone ))))) to have a truly wonderful weekend.
Love,
Leah
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...almost all the computers in our office are down -- except for guess who's??? -- so there's no work to be done, ha, ha!
Anyway, thank you all.
TT, you are absolutely right. I'm all intuition and not much ... what's the other thing? Is it logic? Giggle. When I took the Myers-Briggs test I was all intuition and none of the other side.
Re: my date, yes, I thought he made a really good point. It is totally about my voicelessness. (Which I have never really explained much here; it doesn't come from an N parent, just neglectful ones who didn't allow me to speak.) I do talk more, I just have to be a little more comfortable. It's funny, he unknowingly gave me insight into two big areas. Before we met he emailed that it was "important that we meet", and just the word "important" was very significant to me. I realize he wasn't saying that I was important to him, just that we meet, but still, it got me in touch with the idea of being important to someone, and that's something I have never felt, or been told on a significant level. (I have great, great friends, and I know I'm important to them, but that's different.) It was such a huge point that I'm going to group with it!
Carolyn, thank you. I enjoyed learning more about the quote. Very interesting.
Oh, the pride thing is just about me. Most of the time I am like the second part of your scripture, but I have to admit, I often felt pride about my church, because it was so wonderful under the N's leadership. It all seemed so genuine. Who knew? He was really good -- you just never would have believed he was who he really is. And actually, he really was a great pastor. He did wonderful things, he lead us in wonderful ways, really broadened our understanding; and he helped more people than I could begin to tell you, he really did. it's just that he used his ministry to meet his own needs, and that's sick.
And, I have to admit to some pride about having him interested in me. I did. I used to think about one or two women who always seemed to have a "superior attitude" (well, one was a lawyer...ha, ha!), and I would feel a little superior myself when I thought about how when the N's feelings finally became public, I would feel so good. Ugh!!!!!!! I guess none of us is immune. The thing about pride with me is, I really have always had such low self-esteem, particularly with men. To feel pride is so unusual for me. It made sense that he'd be interested, because we'd always had a special relationship. He was like my brother.
I also want to clarify that it was just the pastor, not our congregation, who was the problem. No one in the congregation knows a thing except for the 5-6 people who were necessarily involved. They went to every length to protect my privacy ... and when they investigated his charges, they were just wonderful. (in a nutshell, after pursuing me, he initiated harassment charges twice. The first time, in 06, I covered for him because I thought it was just a misunderstanding; the second time I knew better; it's the being brought up on charges by a long-time friend and a PASTOR, for Pete's sakes, that has caused me so much hurt. The romantic part is nothing much)
I could not have asked for more wise or compassionate people. They conducted the investigation from no particular point of view, they listened to me very carefully (I was the last one they talked to and I talked to them for 3-1/2 hours!); my music director and friend was just unbelievable. He went in and stuck up for me with insight and wisdom and honesty far more than I ever could have imagined. (He'd also seen the N do a few things, which helped.) It brings tears to my eyes to know I have such a friend(s). They were so encouraging about my returning to church (I didn't think I'd be able to, and they really encouraged me) ... really, I just could not have asked for more wonderful people. More often than not women get the shaft in this kind of situation, and I experienced just the opposite.
That said, it has been really, really hard to return, and still is. It's deeply painful. I just feel like I've got to suck it in and fake it till I make it. If people only knew! I'm really just going through the motions; I feel pretty disconnected from it all ... but I know it will come back in time. I just wish we could have a new full-time pastor now (it will take us about two years) instead of an interim. Would go a lot further towards feeling like we're moving ahead, instead of in transition.
My only complaint is that I wish they'd taken the matter further; this man needs to be censured. However, that was beyond the scope of their purpose; I think, however, that it will be dealt with in some fashion, along with his other bad behaviors. This same music director/friend is actually our interim head of staff now, until we find an interim pastor, and I am pretty sure he will find a way to address the N's behavior -- in his personnel file or something.
Long diversion, there, but I really felt I had to stand up for those who stood up for me. What I meant is that our congregation was victimized by him too. Some know, some don't ...and those who think they know don't know the full extent (since they don't he's an N, and they didn't see the real disordered behavior the way I did. The weird stuff -- stuff no one would believe if I told them.)
...thanks for letting me get it all out. I really don't have a place to go with these feelings ... I think it's wisest not to talk about them with people at church, even those who know (although I do tell my friend/music director here and there). Must be writing this because it's a Monday and I was just there yesterday!
Hi Leah, just wanted to say, thanks for the blessing! Right back at you. And to everyone.
Whew! Didn't expect to get into all that! Thanks for "listening," everyone. You're all awesome.
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Dear LilyCat,
Wow! Thank you for sharing the account of your experience with that pastor. I'm so sorry you had to endure all of that, and yet so glad that he was finally outed!
What a blessing that you received such support from the other members, especially your music director friend. I can really appreciate why you wanted to clarify this, so that I wouldn't retain my misguided assumption that the whole congregation had let you down. You are very sweet and thoughtful, imo, to be sure to do so... and to speak well of those who backed you so strongly.
It shines through to me that you have really given alot of thought and soul-searching to this entire matter. Alot of people don't ever get to the point of recognizing how their own feelings (whether pride or desperation) might contribute to the bigger picture. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that makes it their fault, only that it's a wonderful measure of healing and growth in you that you've been able and willing to do that. I didn't begin to feel free of my NPD ex-husband until after I'd acknowledged how he'd tickled my own pride in some ways that caused me to choose not to address his darker issues at first. Ack.. what a mess.
Anyhow, I am so glad you're free of all that! And I do hope that it gets easier to go on there within that congregation. Who knows, maybe there will be some way for them to get another permanent pastor before the usual waiting period is up. Transitions can be very challenging, that's for sure... and yet alot of great stuff can happen in the midst of change :)
It's been a pleasure listening to you... and I look forward to reading more of you. Oh, and I think it's no accident that your computer was still working yesterday! :D
Yeah, I don't believe in coincidence... lol. Just glad I got back to this thread today to read!
Have a great Tuesday!
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi TT, Carolyn,
...in order of posts ...
TT, re: the date: I liked him and would like him as a friend, but nothing romantic. He must have some money -- did I mention he's been on 54 cruises in 10 years? -- but says he doesn't have any medical insurance (Let the gov't take care of it) and not planning on retirement savings. (Let me live now.) I think maybe it's a phase, but... a healthy 401(k) is at the top of my list!!! ha, ha. And a few other things. But he was very nice.
And you are very close on the M-B test! I'm an ENFP. But I could almost as easily be an INFP. I scored nearly equally on the introverson/extroversion. I think it was just one point to the extraversion side. Definitely the feeling kind!!!
BUT -- I am having so much luck on match.com! Bunches of "winks" and a few emails from promising prospects! It's pretty fun. Unfortunately match has not received and processed my check yet, so I am waiting, waiting, waiting for that to happen so I can read and respond. Yea!!!!!! (Only interested in local men. I don't know why men from across the country wink at you or email. My first suspicion is always that they're an N or another type of online predator.)
Carolyn, thank you. Yes, it has been very hard. The hardest part was not the romantic part but losing someone I thought was a really, really dear friend, having him so totally and viciously betray me, exploit me and my feelings, and then have to come to terms with the truth. I really miss that friend, I can't tell you how much. I just loved him. I wish he could have just gone away to his new church and that none of this would have happened. I miss him. But as we all know, it wasn't the real him. But other people still have the illusion -- why not me? Ha, ha.
As to taking responsibility -- yeah, soul-searching is my middle name. And my therapist steadfastly holds our feet to the fire. He would never let me go through this without acknowledging my contribution. (Although he's not TOO hard on me in this case.) The pride thing I came up with on my own; I don't think I could ever tell someone outside this board. I have too much pride! (Really, it's too shameful to admit.)
I am lucky to have our music director. We all are. He is truly the most gracious person I have ever met. And what a dear friend. And SOOOOOOOOO talented! He is as much a theologian as he is musician, and that is a wonderful combination. Too bad you can't read his articles in our monthly newsletter. They're better than any of our pastors ever wrote (even though the N's were very good.)
Well, the N pastor wasn't a total loss. As far as I can determine, every woman he's had an affair with (!!!! new information, and oh! He has an illegitimate child, just what you want in a pastor), including the major OW he's with now, has been very, very attractive. So I figure I must be, too. I needed to know that.
Ugh. I wish I could tell you the whole saga, but it would be just too long. Fortunately, nothing went too far; I shudder to think what could have happened. I think the Big Guy was looking out for me on that one. It was nice to be idealized for a year...!!!!!! Actually, in doing that he gave me some things I should have had from my parents and never did, so as I say, it was not a total loss. And I learned some very valuable lessons.
I was interested to read about your NPD husband. You'll have to tell me more about it. I would love to know.
You two are so wonderful, just like so many other people here. Thank you, so much. You have really touched me and I deeply appreciate your generosity and kindness.
Be well and keep dry or cool, depending on where you live!
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Dear LilyCat,
I hear you, about wishing that your dear friend could have just gone away to his new church and skip all the part where he betrayed and exploited you. Yet I know that you are so much better off being dis-illusioned, rather than entangled and entranced ! Took me a long time to come to terms with that, but it's true. To this day, there's the occasional flash of fond remembrance, about something that my ex used to do...
but then I remember... the rest of the story :S
And I hear you about the pride thing. When I met my ex, I had three children in the home... and so I've had to explain to them that part of the history. Especially my girls. I wanted them and my son, too, to know that a big part of what first drew me to this shadow man (as my son calls him) was the flattering reflection he portrayed to me of myself. It still amazes me that the very qualities which he appeared to hold within him, were actually my own positive traits... not his, at all.
NPD is masterful at mimicry... personality snatchers, extraordinaire. So... they know, beware of flattery... and... if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. (Not in a cynical way, but just realistically speaking!)
You were idealized for an entire year? That may be an N world record... lol.
I think I lasted 6 months... and then I became the source of all his pain and suffering.
N's are so predictable. He'd behave the worst after any success or accomplishment on my part, driven by envy as he was. The harder I'd try, the more he despised me and tried to sabotage me... and then lie like a fiend about it. It was astounding how he could twist the truth and re-write history, without batting an eye. When I meet someone like that now, I build a tall fence and lock the gate. It may take a while to tell for sure, but often I'll spot it first in how they treat people who are beneath them in status or esteem.. like service-people... or when they catch someone in an error and gloat to no end. It's absolutely revolting.
Anyhow, I was only married to him for 3 years... and now I've been remarried to a non-NPD ordinary guy for 4 years... and the recovery continues, but life surely does make a whole lot more sense these days!!
Again, I'm so glad you're here and joining in... you are such a pleasant breath of fresh air! And I hope you're keeping cool and dry, as well! We had major rains, but now a sunny day and slightly less humidity, so I've enjoyed doing some outdoor chores without feeling like a noodle. Talk with you again soon!
Love to you,
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TT, he certainly was that, wasn't he? (Serial Cruizer. Very good!)
CH,
I'm really glad you've found a permanent someone new. "Ordinary" must feel so wonderful!!!
Yeah, it was a whole year. From what I've read on another board, it does seem like an awful long time for an N. The amazing thing is that, unbeknownst to me, he was parading all over town (I live out of town) with his significant Other Woman (the long-term one he cheated on his wife with, but not the mother of his illlegit child, who's much older) I sometimes wonder what was playing out in that scene the whole time. Wacko!!!!
It's funny, I sometimes wonder how long the idealization would have gone on. I guess it would have stopped when he left our church. The only reason it stopped (I think in conjunction with his knowing that he was leaving) is that I gave him a major narcissistic injury (without knowing it, of course, I was just trying to address something). Perhaps it was the circumstances -- we could never be together. Or rather, I always made sure not to be alone with him to protect his reputation. (Again, I say, WHAT reputation????) I think that's one of the reasons it's been hard for me. Aside from the actual 10-year friendship, when it came to "things changing," I only saw his best self for the entire time, just about. (IF you take away the harasment charges). I did see several glimpses of his little-boy self (explain that to me, will you? Weird!) and only twice, his grandiose self. It was shocking. They were so completely different from the person I knew. When I get nostalgic I immediately picture the grandiose self. It is so nauseating that it's an instant reality check! It was weird, too. Very, very strange. SO strange! Comical, even. And sad.
RE your comments about reflection ... once I learned more about NPD, I wondered if he just really liked "being me". (Glad he did, LOL; lord knows I get tired of being me!) It must have been a real vacation from being him.
So sad, these people. So sad.
You people with kids always blow my mind. I don't know how you do it during the best of times, much less when you're living with an NPD. Extraordinary.
Anyway, y'all have a good day!