Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on June 11, 2008, 05:58:14 PM
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I had a moment of clarity.....
today.....
in the bathroom, of all places :shock:
It occurred to me....
..... the people who've hurt me the most......
(3-D people, of course)
really couldn't help themselves.
I say that a lot here....
but.....
I hadn't internalized it at the deepest levels.
I'd been intellectualizing it... trying to understand and accept it, myself.
Not experiencing it as
feelings within my chest, unbidden. Just there.
So......
what was gained.....
more empathy for those who can't make higher choices....
for whatever reason, without judgment, on my part.
::sigh:: This is so hard, and I didn't grow up with an abusive FOO.
I have such deep respect for Izzy and Amber..... all those who've overcome egregiously oppressive FOO abuse.....
what an amazing journey.
To come so far,
through and beyond,
the pain.
Lighter
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Oy, changing....
I got as far as the words "child molester"
had in involuntary shudder
then almost threw up.
Sorry but... haven't got the stomach for a movie like that right now.
Once I've regained some emotional equilibrium.... I'll revisit your post.
There was a time I could think about these things and not yak.
Today... is not the day: (
Lighter
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umm.. I think I'd rather stick with "I cannot help them"
instead of
"they can't help it".
P.S. on edit...
Maybe think of it more in terms of an addiction (which is what I think lies at the root most personality disorders - NPD being an addiction to a false self) ?
...and thereby we know
that no addict can be helped until he recognizes that he has a problem
and is willing to receive help from others.
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Aha!
lighter and changing
Thank you.
Lighter: you spoke of how it is for me. The feeling. The whatever in my chest and my tummy: fear & excitement being on top of the list. When the fear or excitement have dissipated, they go someplace that is unknown to me and I can only pull them up in my head. Intellectually I can say I felt that way, but the feeling doesn't return to my innards.
I think the one I could pull up for quite some time was about a guy who was 'chasing' me. I was 20; we were in the same bowling league. Everytime he bowled his frame he would rush over to my group and put his arm around me and sometimes try to kiss me. I never let him. This went on for months and finally I gave in to a date. He brought me home and kissed me, and me him, and my knees gave out. He had to hold me up. I couldn't forget that feeling for a long long long time.
(Now when my knees give out, I break a leg.)
Fear of my father comes from my head, and I believe it did from the time I was little and might have built this 'unknown' place.
Changing: perfected, not perfect is right. I have lived and relived and relived my life many times. Who said 'An unexamined life is not worth living'? That is my excuse for going back to the past, but not living there~! One thing I can say, is that I now understand many things I never did before, and am reasonably content with life as it it now is for me. The sad part is that there are many things I missed out on: after my accident:
walking my child to school
holding her hand to cross a street or in a crowded store.
the readily available hugs an kisses from any angle, and not have a "wall of steel" surrounding my body.
running in the sand on a beach
............oh so many little things that would have counted for more..........have come to mind, for how my little 5 year old was affected.
Love Izzy
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Oh my! Changing deleted her post and confusion set in--let me find a way to grasp what followed.
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Hi Darling Izzy-
I was upsetting Lighter, and thought it best to surgically remove the item!!!
You dear- you see your great loss in terms of what it meant to your child, and not yourself- she is so blessed to have had the benefit of such love...Despite the cruelties and disparities of the world, your heroic efforts resulted in a magnificent daughter and a fabulous YOU- YOU ROCK IZZY!!!!
You are so vibrant and real it is always a great honor when you share your thoughts- I always learn so much from you- WOW
Love You,
Changing
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Carolyn:
Did you post as a result of changing's post?
Maybe think of it more in terms of an addiction (which is what I think lies at the root most personality disorders - NPD being an addiction to a false self) ?
That is a very interesting remark re NPD. If only I felt it could be true, then my grandchildren could have a 'normal' father. I, however, am aware of his behaviour since 1983 and the N in my life '98-'02. The latter is now a puff of smoke, but the former still presents his controlling and narcissistic personality on my daughter and my 3 grandchildren.
I really don't think an N would sit or stand by and listen, if, say, an intervention were to take place. An N is so positive he/she is right.
Respectfully
Izzy
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I didn't mean for you to delete your post, changing.
I was going to revisit it on a better day.... it looked interesting.
Izzy..... I'm so sorry you never got to run on a beach with your child.
The things you missed....
the things she missed....
that the man who did this to you.....
never had to miss.
Just heartbreaking and I want to acknowledge how unfair it all was.
((((Izzy)))
Changing..... ::whispering:: Put the post back if you can remember it, and don't mind, K?
Lighter
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Changing.... I'm upset, but not bc of your post.
It takes nothing heavier than brushing my teeth and the remake of THE BIRDCAGE to do me in, I'm afraid.
Finding it hard to deal with the sadness today..... not your fault, friend.
Lighter
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Izzy-
I want to acknowledge how wonderful you are, despite any unfairness you have borne- you remind me of a little deer, bouncing about , embodying fun and living and appreciating life by living...
Love,
Changing
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Hello Lighter-
Well , the American version of Le Cage was a letdown, so I can relate Lighter!!!! I hope you feel better- I'll bet Our Izzy has a funny story to post!!!
Love,
Changing
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Carolyn:
Did you post as a result of changing's post?
Maybe think of it more in terms of an addiction (which is what I think lies at the root most personality disorders - NPD being an addiction to a false self) ?
That is a very interesting remark re NPD. If only I felt it could be true, then my grandchildren could have a 'normal' father. I, however, am aware of his behaviour since 1983 and the N in my life '98-'02. The latter is now a puff of smoke, but the former still presents his controlling and narcissistic personality on my daughter and my 3 grandchildren.
I really don't think an N would sit or stand by and listen, if, say, an intervention were to take place. An N is so positive he/she is right.
Respectfully
Izzy
Yes, Izzy... the notion that a child molester "can't help it" just doesn't compute in my brain. I know that's not what Changing said, yet that's how it registers in my brain.
And I don't think that N would tolerate an intervention, either... so the potential to recover normalcy is next til nil, imo.
The "methadone" for this addiction to false self would be what? ... to humble oneself, get honest, face reality, and admit to the deep vulnerability within.
I can't bring myself to say that NPD can never recover, but... well... what are the chances?
Tragedy and dire life circumstances can drive an N into treatment, so they say.
But how long before that old mask rises back up again?
Just the attention N receives from the therapist/counselor seems to refire the old supply-neurons, as I've seen in person, with ex.
I wish your former son-in-law could outgrow it, Izzy... but I think most of them would rather die than give up their delusion.
Carolyn
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Lighter-
I am sorry that you are hurting so- you carry the world on your shoulders at times. Please take care and do not let trivialities wear you down. You are cared for ,needed and appreciated, and those emotions will be coming back up soon.
Your Friend,
Changing
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hi Carolyn,
My thoughts.
There is no way that medication would heal an NDP”d person. There is no way that an NDP”D person would be honest with a therapist.
If an N were to notice that some people are happier , more centered, never show raging emotions, as in trashing a room or a vehicle , then there might be a possibility if he were to meet with family people….
........
….I say that an N is made, not born.
Take a for instance that a woman gives birth and uses a wet nurse. The baby will look into the nurse’s eyes and remember the tone of her voice and how he is being held. Then mother comes along and does motherly things, like holding him and playing with him but her tone and actions are different, then back to nurse, then to mother, then to nurse then to mother. Who is who? Who can I trust???? and something is already in a baby’s system. (I made up this scenario..) Does the baby know who loves him?
Take the scenario of a baby just born, held by his mother and nursed and cooed with etc. then given away for adoption. There is a broken bond again. There are also nurses and social services people handling this kid and it is all confused and doesn’t even know it.
He grows up and hates his parents, particularly his mother, with no definable reason. Maybe both parents work and there is a sitter who could give a sh*t about him.
He builds a fantasy life for himself, and as he ages, he mimics the people around him, but actually has no personality of his own. He trusts no one, but he must be the best considering everybody hated him.
Ah! well Carolyn I could go on, but you (might) get my drift.
The N would need ALL those people in the first years of his life to come forward and admit their failure to see to his needs in an emotionally healthy way.
Do you think that would ever happen?.....................nope!
An N is an N is an N in my eyes and experiences! THe one I was with was adopted , my ex SIL is the 9th child of 10children.
Okay! So in my life, my mother breast fed all 6 of her babies. A younger sister was born (for me) when I was 18 months old. I still needed a mother. I wonder what she did????? This is the closest in birthdays out of the 5 of us. The 6th, a baby, died.
Yep! All problem begin very early in life.
Thoughts on my thoughts?
Izzy
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lighter
I expected you, of all people, would relate to holding one's child's hand or running on the beach and the such like. There are so many things in life to think about and that came back to me when I saw a middle-aged couple, the other day, walking along, holding hands, and I realized that for 39 years I've used my 2 hands to push the chair and handholding is out of the question.
I'm sorry you are sad today! and Who said "Life is Fair?"
changing
Thank you for your ROCK and WOW!!!! At my age yet! Oh! and I loved your thinking of me as a little deer prancing and bouncing around.
Is Le Cage the one with all the gay people?
xx
Izzy
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Well, hello, little prancing dear lol - I mean, deer :)
I agree with you that medication can't cure NPD... because it's not a physiological disease or a chemical imbalance, imo.
And I can picture N being "honest" (I can't even use that word with regard to N unless I put it into quotes... sheesh) in therapy - - - right up to the point where he's asked to look within to locate the source of his misery. That's where he'd get stumped, imo.
But you know... my ex's mother was quite a case, in her younger years...
just exactly the sort that you'd imagine might spawn a N...
but she was not a bit N herself, imo, when I met her in her 70's.
In fact, I believe that she recognized exactly what her son had become and felt deeply saddened by that knowledge. He lived with her before we married, and nearly drove her mad with his shenanigans. But that's beside the point, sorry. It's just that you woulda sworn she was N herself, by the way her earlier life was described by other family members... and yet I couldn't see a speck of it in her later. So I cannot let loose of the notion that people can change, if they're willing to.
I think your view gives too much weight to nurture over nature... but that's because I don't think that babies are born blank slates. Each of my children had a very definite and distinguished personality from birth... and each has responded differently to her/his life circumstances to date (many of which have been far from pleasant).
This fits with what I experienced of NPD-ex:
He builds a fantasy life for himself, and as he ages, he mimics the people around him, but actually has no personality of his own. He trusts no one, but he must be the best considering everybody hated him.
That's a common theme I've seen with NPD. They have no personality of their own and trust no one, yet try to assume the personalities of others they envy,
along with name-dropping about supposedly important people with whom they've associated.
But I don't believe that he needed
ALL those people in the first years of his life to come forward and admit their failure to see to his needs in an emotionally healthy way.
He was able to express his needs to me, on occasion... so there was, at some level, an awareness of them.
Trouble was, no sooner did he express them than he'd punish me in some way, because now I knew his secret. He was vulnerable... and it was that vulnerability that he hated.
I understand that the N's you knew seem to have had very difficult lives... but I don't think that's always the case. Just thinking that... over-coddling and overly "spoiling" a child is said to be another potential way of winding up with N. So it's not just about feeling empty inside and not having received adequate care. It's a choice, I think still... always a choice...
and a very prideful one... to worship one's image of one's self above all.
Izzy, what did you mean by "a younger sister was born" for you?
Carolyn
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Oh Izzy.... I can't even imagine your heart's sorrow over the things you and your dd have missed:*(
Lighter
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:(
((((((Lighter)))))) and (((((((Izzy)))))))
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hi Carolyn
Izzy, what did you mean by "a younger sister was born" for you?
Funny!. I knew that was confusing, but there was #1, then #2 then #3 (me) and #4 (her in 18 months) the closest of births. She was a younger sister of all 3 of us.
I saw that............you changed 'dear' to 'deer'.
I suispect that those of us who (have a substanial amount of knowledge about NPD-ism?) would tend to agree on a # of points, yet disagree on others. I suspect that would be a logical conclusion as there can be differences.
Ex SIL, "I talk. You listen!" shocked my toenails into knots and I knew not why but I wondered why my D didn't speak up. Now I know. She was so emotionally abused she couldn't and he shocked me into voicelessness.
The general public ought to be made aware, but how. No one listens or believes unless having already been there!
Izzy
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Dear little prancing, dancing deer (whew!)
I see that you and your two older siblings each and all had a youngest sister, yes. It was the "for" you that stymied me.
And now you have two dear deers in your greeting, so I have that issue covered.
About the points of NPD... definitely. There will not be complete agreement across the board, I don't guess... but we can all surely attest to the destruction one leaves in its wake.
That "I talk. You listen!" ... Iz, you must have been absolutely floored. If a man talked to my daughter that way... I'd... I'd... I don't know what! How awful.
I completely understand the shock of it! My ex was not an habitual screamer, but he spoke to me in that manner and tone, with pretty near the same words, toward the end of our marriage, and I was completely terrified. Which was, of course, the desired effect. Every single solitary thing they do is for effect.
Or is it affect. Matters not. Their affect is quite shallow, too. So there.
And you're right. No one believes till they experience it. And... I think there's alot of plain old generic jerkiness that's being labeled with npd out there, which doesn't help the cause either.
Carolyn
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Carolyn and Izz.....
these mournful memories of your N/abusers.....
sad
sad
sad: (
Reading about your hopes and fears and the marks accross your hearts.....
the terror that finally replaces hope. ::shaking head::
just mournfully sad.
((Carolyn and Izzy))
Lighter
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Okay, no more sadness from me, Lighter...
cuz you said you were only going to converse with uplifting happy folk and I don't wanna get cut off :P
Maybe you'd better have a little bowl of ice cream?
A hot toddy? A cold toddy?
Really, there's not too much of the old sadness left attached to the memories... or even anger.
It's all pretty much been chalked up to the facts-of-life list.
And life has gone on, really. Filled with new challenges, or old ones - recycled, but it's gone on, nonetheless.
Yours will, too.
Carolyn
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::brightening at the thought of icecream::
(((carolyn)))
I wouldn't cut you off, dear.
Not even when you were sad at me.
Lighter
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Good.
I am trying to cut out the cutting off, myself... only applying when absolutely necessary.
And ice cream... well, that's a forever thang.
Hugs
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I have another one about ex SIL
I was down to their place to attend a movie, The Clan of the Cave Bear. In Toronto. Take a taxi to downtown rather than look for parking. I sit in the front in taxi the two of them in the back and my 'chair folded in the trunk. Same for way home and I am in front with driver just before SIL is in and door shut and I gave address to driver.
All was very quiet on way home and when we got in the door, he erupted, that HE! HE! in a taxi gave the address to the driver. No one else!!!
D responded with, "Well don't get angry then tell us the rules later!"
I applauded her in my mind.
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yikes, Izzy.
That just gives me chills.
I realized today why I was so disturbed after getting this little swimming pool recently and putting it together with my daughter.
When I got it, I picked it up myself, and managed to stuff the thing into the backseat of my car (rather the two WalMart service guys did)
So I pried it out of there, pushing and then pulling, on and on, hauled the parts in a wheelbarrow to the front yard, etc, etc, etc...
and all of this under a little niggling burden of ... guilt? I thought.... because I'd made a brief call to my (current) husband and told him what I was doing, but didn't really ask for his input. Usually, I would discuss something like that with him and we'd come to agreement, but on this deal, my mind was made up and I was goin for it.
Okay, so all goes well... he's not a bit upset and doesn't have to do a speck of work to get the whole thing set up... but I cannot relax about it.
It was bothering me so much, hanging over my head like a bucket of doom, until finally yesterday - something I read here set off the realization -
the reason it was oppressing me so is that if I had done something like that with npd-ex, made a decision on my own and then not gone begging him to please help me get it fixed up - he would have made life so miserable for me from that point on. Probably would have sabotaged the whole thing and I would have regretted ever trying such a thing on my own. And of course it would have all been my fault, because I didn't consult the great one and let him handle it.
So - there he was, still in my head, after all this time.
Makes me wonder how many more times I'll have to boot him out before he's finally gone.
Carolyn
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I fear the marks they leave on our psyches and hearts.....
won't ever be completely gone.
Not all of them.
Lighter
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I thought you were eating ice cream, Lighter.
Nite nite
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I had a moment of clarity.....
today.....
in the bathroom, of all places :shock:
It occurred to me....
..... the people who've hurt me the most......
(3-D people, of course)
really couldn't help themselves.
Lighter,
Yes...yes...and yes.. and not to just the bathroom clarity part, but to realizing that those who have hurt me cannot and or could not help themselves at the time.
How many times have I been helpless and clueless...hmmmm well, many :roll:
But, what I have been struggling with is what happens when one day they (N's) have to come to terms with themselves... the truth will be known it will come forward, so what then, are they going to look back and recall how people hated them and then have a "bathroom" moment of clarity in that they deserve the anger that people threw at them in response to their lies????
Hmmmm.....wishful thinking on my part, perhaps?
It occurs to me that the people who helped me the most over the years were the ones that told me the truth, but did it from a place of love and kindness.
I have no idea what I am saying here....just rambling.
Lise
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Lighter, Hope and Our Izzy Deer-
I just read your conversation here and it made me feel...happy somehow...the kindness and gentle wit ( "I won't cut you off...even if you are sad at me")- lovely.
Thank you,
Changing
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((((((((Changing))))))))
Izzy, this is what I was looking for... to post this: (from http://www.zimbio.com/Narcissistic+personality+disorder/articles/14/Pathological+Narcissism+Spiritual+Disorder (http://www.zimbio.com/Narcissistic+personality+disorder/articles/14/Pathological+Narcissism+Spiritual+Disorder))
Psychologists say that, in their quiet moments, NPDs know that they are not really as grandiose as they pretend:
When NPDs cynically use others to "feed" their false self, they know it.
When they overreact to perceived criticisms, they know what the truth is.
When they lie to conceal their inadequacies, they have chosen to deceive.
When they scapegoat others, they do so with deliberation.
When they refuse to apologize, they know they are in the wrong.
All of which means that free will is fully engaged in this so-called "disorder."
In effect, the NPD is more than a mental sickness. Pathological narcissism is not some noxious virus or bacteria that overtakes a person. Whatever the early childhood experiences, free will is still operative here. Rather, NPD is a moral disorder, because it is immoral to lie and to use, exploit, blame, and hurt others.
More than immoral, NPD is, at its foundation, a spiritual blight. Since the false self of the narcissist is extremely grandiose, she excludes herself from the moral norms that govern "lesser" beings: "rules don’t apply to me." That makes NPDs their own gods. In so doing, they are in denial of the fundamentally flawed nature of all human beings.
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And there's more, at that link.
Just wondering what y'all think.
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
Wow...as I was reading this I had an epiphany! Seriously,
Not to barge my way into a discussion with you, Izzy, lighter, and changing...I wanted to comment on what it was like for me to read your post here. I was thinking to myself that the only comparison I have to try to identify with the N's lack of guilt or remorse is my own lack of remorse at times in my life or my own sense of Nish traits that I have had to awaken to time and time again.
But, as I was reading it hit me...I am normal and humanly normal which means that I am flawed and prone to sin.
But, that does not make me lacking in consciousness or lacking in morality. It just means at times in my life I have not been very spiritually mature and or loving.
What makes it hard for me is to imagine a person willingly turning away from God..............Why?
What makes it hard for me is to try to understand who would want to deceive.................Why?
What makes it hard is that I assume that N's have to just be oblivious on some level.........Right?
It is just too hard for me to think that some Christian, who has a full understanding of the doctrine of faith as well as are believers, would still deceive and destroy by feeding off others for their own sake despite what they know to be true.
They just have to be ignorant of their actions, right?
When N-Saint slandered me this past year I actually think that she was clueless and was completely convinced that I was in the wrong with her. But, could it be that she is in full awareness of her evil, despite that she is wearing a mask of a super loving Christian?
It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around people doing wrong, willingly.
Part of my questioning comes from my intense desire to want to forgive, which I can, but also to want to see all people be saved.
But, I guess that not all people want to be saved.
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Hi Carolyn, (this took a whiile)
That is a good site, and there are plenty of off-shoot links.
What I prefer is that someone has read such information from a professional/someone who knows, then the poster here put her personal spin on the what it really was like for her, what she learned.
I met the N, after I bought a computer from him. He was very knowledgeable about building computers. A friend picked it up brought it to me and hooked it up, but noticed a faulty video card. I called to have it replaced and N came. He was there for 6 hours.
He was there for 6 hours. I never thought about his extending a 10 minute job into 6 hours. I never thought about the lost time he was making for himself. We were chatting and getting along as though we had known each other forever, and I didn’t know that he had read me. He said I was the nicest person he had ever met,. REALLY! I was a nice person (but he also read ‘neediness , insecurity, money, and easy prey’)
He told me that his ex always called him a loser and how he would never get anywhere in life. I saw it differently, as he was so well-versed in computers, the building of same and operation. He also said he had a University degree and was a teacher..
I had once lived in his home town. Some coincidence, and attended the same church. We both were able to discuss the pastor and his wife and he would later send me a picture of the wife. He said he thought he had seen me before--and it had to be in the Church. We were amazed over this coincidence. Later I asked him when he stopped attending church and he said March, 1966. I began attending in September, 1966. He couldn’t have seen me and thought how ‘hot I was’.
What he told me about himself, brought out the mother in me, wanting to console him----pity---and make things right. It also made me share and what I had to share told him that I was available to move. Later we would move and now I am here 2000 miles away from family, but that is a good point for me.
I saw that he loved himself and hated himself. I saw that he was never at fault. I saw that he wouldn’t even allow me to cook. I once started a stir fry and he took over and really believed it all was his idea. I once made a terrific meal which I served up as he came home from a business call. He asked me the recipe and I said there was none, just something I did if I have certain ingredients. He was furious with me.
He took forever to deliver and set up a computer. Sheesh I ought to have known from the first day I met him and he wasted 6 hours. Since we were partners in a computer business, I was concerned about this lost time, when he bitched his work was piling up. He would become so overwhelmed that he would stop working about 2:30 and begin drinking. He was a loser and would get nowhere in life.
This could become a book but those are the real experiences of a victim, turned survivor, of a psychopath.
Yes! Psychopath. My first therapist pegged him as an N, then changed that to a P when she learned he had criminal records: statutory rape, (jail time), car theft (jail time), manslaughter--killed a 16 year old girl when driving drunk (jail time) -- then refusal to file tax returns, which involved me re the business, owed Government $70,000.00 for adult student loan for University, and refused to pay, because Karla Homalka, (google that name) in prison for murder, received free University Education. What he needed was someone else’s name on HIS business (I never made a cent) HIS bank accounts, so that the government could not seize his assets. (entitlement)
I left, removed my name and then the Gov’t descended, partially through me, but because they had my phone number, not his. (????) hiding?
That’s enough to let everyone know, for now!
Izzy
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Hi Izzy My Deer-
I love the way that you articulated your preference for the type of information to read here- it is quite similar to my preference, though I haven't quite figured out how to express it ( I prefer information in the context of experience and science- not endless pontifications or circular logic-ridden groundless conjectures posing as truth)
That magnetic charming man seemed to weave a hypnotic spell - now you would see the loser and yet appreciate the charm. I don't know if I have come to that level yet- I tend to enjoy the charm if it is not too close, but cannot balance things like you do...still working on it. I'm going to Google that odd name now...
Love,
Changing
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Hi, Izzy,
Thanks for responding and for letting me know your preference. I do recall reading you express similar qualifications in the past. Just thought that the info at this link fell right in line with what we were discussing last night, particularly with regard to the question of whether or not NPD can be cured.
The views expressed in the article which I excerpted here do come the closest to what I believe about the formation of N and the choice of the individual to remain in his condition. Fits right in with my own personal experience with ex and others, as well.
Also, I can compare my experience with yours, as you explained a bit here, and tell you that - every step of the way and sometimes in nearly exactly the same manner - my ex husband and his behavior matched directly with what you've described.
He was a loser and a user, indeed - but liked to assure me that he wasn't "used up yet".
He puttered and frittered and dreamed and monologued in volumes of empty talk, but rarely accomplished anything of substance.
etc, etc, etc.
It's clear to me that he marked me as a target early on, seeing that neediness and ability and potential to be his supply.
But it's also clear to me that there were some brief flashes of hope within him... that somehow he could take enough from me to make himself live again. When it became clear that I was not an inexhaustible source, he grew more sadistic and cruel.
And that's all I care to say about that... because it still sickens me.
Thanks for sharing, Izzy. I can see that our P/ N/ S or whatever they are had alot in common.
I believe that the one I married had a choice all along, but refused to give up the notion that I should be responsible for his success.
Carolyn
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Hi Izzy-
I Googled the name. So awful- and no justice done in my opinion.
Changing
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Dear Lise,
I don't know the answers, except that knowing the truth is not the same as receiving it and incorporating it into one's own being.
Also I thought that the quote at the end of that article by Dr. Maria Hsia Chang
did a good job of summing up the problem.
Decrying the ills that he saw rampant in modern society--the relativization of all moral norms and the reduction of life to the immediate pursuit of material gain without regard to its general consequences--VaÇlav Havel observed that "Given its fatal incorrigibility, humanity will have to go through many more Rwandas and Chernobyls before it understands how unbelievably short-sighted a human being can be who has forgotten that he is not God."
It is the misdiagnosis of pathological narcissism as a "personality disorder" instead of a moral-spiritual condition which accounts for psychiatrists’ characterization of it as "one of the most . . . difficult-to-treat conditions in the lexicon of mental illness.
From what I've seen, Lise... to NPD it feels like a matter of life and death... her very survival... to defend the lies on which she's staked her existence.
So from her perspective, maybe it doesn't feel that she has a choice. If she can't be "god", she doesn't want to be at all.
Love,
Carolyn