Epiphany

[lighter]

I had a moment of clarity.....

today.....

in the bathroom, of all places

It occurred to me....

..... the people who've hurt me the most......

(3-D people, of course)

really couldn't help themselves.

I say that a lot here....

 but.....

 I hadn't internalized it at the deepest levels.

I'd been intellectualizing it... trying to understand and accept it, myself.

Not experiencing it as

feelings within my chest, unbidden.  Just there.

So......

what was gained.....

more empathy for those who can't make higher choices....

for whatever reason, without judgment, on my part.

::sigh::  This is so hard, and I didn't grow up with an abusive FOO.

I have such deep respect for Izzy and Amber..... all those who've overcome egregiously oppressive FOO abuse.....

what an amazing journey.

To come so far,

through and beyond,

the pain.

Lighter

[lighter]

Oy, changing....

I got as far as the words "child molester"

had in involuntary shudder

then almost threw up.

Sorry but... haven't got the stomach for a movie like that right now.

Once I've regained some emotional equilibrium.... I'll revisit your post.

There was a time I could think about these things and not yak.

Today... is not the day: (

Lighter

[Certain Hope]

umm.. I think I'd rather stick with "I cannot help them"

instead of

"they can't help it".

P.S. on edit...

Maybe think of it more in terms of an addiction (which is what I think lies at the root most personality disorders - NPD being an addiction to a false self) ?

...and thereby we know

that no addict can be helped until he recognizes that he has a problem

and is willing to receive help from others.

[Izzy_*now*]

Aha!
lighter and changing

Thank you.
Lighter: you spoke of how it is for me. The feeling. The whatever in my chest and my tummy: fear & excitement being on top of the list. When the fear or excitement have dissipated, they go someplace that is unknown to me and I can only pull them up in my head. Intellectually I can say I felt that way, but the feeling doesn't return to my innards.

I think the one I could pull up for quite some time was about a guy who was 'chasing' me. I was 20; we were in the same bowling league. Everytime he bowled his frame he would rush over to my group and put his arm around me and sometimes try to kiss me. I never let him. This went on for months and finally I gave in to a date. He brought me home and kissed me, and me him, and my knees gave out. He had to hold me up. I couldn't forget that feeling for a long long long time.

(Now when  my knees give out, I break a leg.)

Fear of my father comes from my head, and I believe it did from the time I was little and might have built this 'unknown' place.

Changing: perfected, not perfect is right. I have lived and relived and relived my life many times. Who said 'An unexamined life is not worth living'? That is my excuse for going back to the past, but not living there~! One thing I can say, is that I now understand many things I never did before, and am reasonably content with life as it it now is for me. The sad part is that there are many things I missed out on: after my accident:
walking my child to school
holding her hand to cross a street or in a crowded store.
the readily available hugs an kisses from any angle, and not have a "wall of steel" surrounding my body.
running in the sand on a beach
............oh so many little things that would have counted for more..........have come to mind, for how my little 5 year old was affected.

Love Izzy

[Izzy_*now*]

Oh my! Changing deleted her post and confusion set in--let me find a way to grasp what followed.

[changing]

Hi Darling Izzy-

I was upsetting Lighter, and thought it best to surgically remove the item!!!

You dear- you see your great loss in terms of what it meant to your child, and not yourself- she is so blessed to have had the benefit of such love...Despite the cruelties and disparities of the world, your heroic efforts resulted in a magnificent daughter and a fabulous YOU- YOU ROCK IZZY!!!!

You are so vibrant and real it is always a great honor when you share your thoughts- I always learn so much from you- WOW
Love You,

Changing

[Izzy_*now*]

Carolyn:

Did you post as a result of changing's post?

Maybe think of it more in terms of an addiction (which is what I think lies at the root most personality disorders - NPD being an addiction to a false self) ?

That is a very interesting remark re NPD. If only I felt it could be true, then my grandchildren could have a 'normal' father. I, however, am aware of his behaviour since 1983 and the N in my life '98-'02. The latter is now a puff of smoke, but the former still presents his controlling and narcissistic personality on my daughter and my 3 grandchildren.

I really don't think an N would sit or stand by and listen, if, say, an intervention were to take place. An N is so positive he/she is right.

Respectfully
Izzy

[lighter]

I didn't mean for you to delete your post, changing.

I was going to revisit it on a better day.... it looked interesting.

Izzy..... I'm so sorry you never got to run on a beach with your child.

The things you missed....

the things she missed....

that the man who did this to you.....

never had to miss.

Just heartbreaking and I want to acknowledge how unfair it all was.

((((Izzy)))

Changing..... ::whispering:: Put the post back if you can remember it, and don't mind, K?

Lighter

[lighter]

Changing.... I'm upset, but not bc of your post.

It takes nothing heavier than brushing my teeth and the remake of THE BIRDCAGE to do me in, I'm afraid.

Finding it hard to deal with the sadness today..... not your fault, friend.

Lighter

[changing]

Izzy-

I want to acknowledge how wonderful you are, despite any unfairness you have borne- you remind me of a little deer, bouncing about , embodying fun and living and appreciating life by living...

Love,

Changing

[changing]

Hello Lighter-

Well , the American version of Le Cage was a letdown, so I can relate Lighter!!!! I hope you feel better- I'll bet Our Izzy has a funny story to post!!!

Love,

Changing

[Certain Hope]

Carolyn:

Did you post as a result of changing's post?

Maybe think of it more in terms of an addiction (which is what I think lies at the root most personality disorders - NPD being an addiction to a false self) ?

That is a very interesting remark re NPD. If only I felt it could be true, then my grandchildren could have a 'normal' father. I, however, am aware of his behaviour since 1983 and the N in my life '98-'02. The latter is now a puff of smoke, but the former still presents his controlling and narcissistic personality on my daughter and my 3 grandchildren.

I really don't think an N would sit or stand by and listen, if, say, an intervention were to take place. An N is so positive he/she is right.

Respectfully
Izzy

Yes, Izzy... the notion that a child molester "can't help it" just doesn't compute in my brain.  I know that's not what Changing said, yet that's how it registers in my brain.

And I don't think that N would tolerate an intervention, either... so the potential to recover normalcy is next til nil, imo.
The "methadone" for this addiction to false self would be what? ... to humble oneself, get honest, face reality, and admit to the deep vulnerability within.
I can't bring myself to say that NPD can never recover, but... well... what are the chances?

Tragedy and dire life circumstances can drive an N into treatment, so they say.
But how long before that old mask rises back up again?
Just the attention N receives from the therapist/counselor seems to refire the old supply-neurons, as I've seen in person, with ex.

I wish your former son-in-law could outgrow it, Izzy... but I think most of them would rather die than give up their delusion.

Carolyn

[changing]

Lighter-

I am sorry that you are hurting so- you carry the world on your shoulders at times. Please take care and do not let trivialities wear you down. You are cared for ,needed and appreciated, and those emotions will be coming back up soon.

Your Friend,

Changing

[Izzy_*now*]

hi Carolyn,
My thoughts.

There is no way that medication would heal an NDP”d person. There is no way that an NDP”D person would be honest with a therapist.

If an N were to notice that some people are happier , more centered, never show raging emotions, as in trashing a room or a vehicle , then there might be a possibility if he were to meet with family people….
........
….I say that an N is made, not born.

Take a for instance that a woman gives birth and uses a wet nurse. The baby will look into the nurse’s eyes and remember the tone of her voice and how he is being held. Then mother comes along and does motherly things, like holding him and playing with him but her tone and actions are different, then back to nurse, then to mother, then to nurse then to mother. Who is who? Who can I trust???? and something is already in a baby’s system. (I made up this scenario..) Does the baby know who loves him?

Take the scenario of a baby just born, held by his mother and nursed and cooed with etc. then given away for adoption. There is a broken bond again. There are also nurses and social services people handling this kid and it is all confused and doesn’t even know it.

He grows up and hates his parents, particularly his mother, with no definable reason. Maybe both parents work and there is a sitter who could give a sh*t about him.

He builds a fantasy life for himself, and as he ages, he mimics the people around him, but actually has no personality of his own. He trusts no one, but he must be the best considering everybody hated him.

Ah! well Carolyn I could go on, but you (might) get my drift.

The N would need ALL those people in the first years of his life to come forward and admit their failure to see to his needs in an emotionally healthy way.

Do you think that would ever happen?.....................nope!

An N is an N is an N in my eyes and experiences! THe one I was with was adopted , my ex SIL is the 9th child of 10children.

Okay! So in my life, my mother breast fed all 6 of her babies. A younger sister was born (for me) when I was 18 months old. I still needed a mother. I wonder what she did????? This is the closest in birthdays out of the 5 of us. The 6th, a baby, died.

Yep! All problem begin very early in life.

Thoughts on my thoughts?
Izzy

[Izzy_*now*]

lighter

I expected you, of all people, would relate to holding one's child's hand or running on the beach  and the such like. There are so many things in life to think about and that came back to me when I saw a middle-aged couple, the other day, walking along, holding hands, and I realized that for 39 years I've used my 2 hands to push the chair and handholding is out of the question.

I'm sorry you are sad today! and Who said "Life is Fair?"

changing

Thank you for your ROCK and WOW!!!! At my age yet! Oh! and I loved your thinking of me as a little deer prancing and bouncing around.

Is Le Cage the one with all the gay people?

xx
Izzy