Author Topic: Epiphany  (Read 4301 times)

Certain Hope

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Re: Epiphany
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2008, 02:17:41 PM »
((((((((Changing))))))))

Izzy, this is what I was looking for... to post this:   (from http://www.zimbio.com/Narcissistic+personality+disorder/articles/14/Pathological+Narcissism+Spiritual+Disorder)

Psychologists say that, in their quiet moments, NPDs know that they are not really as grandiose as they pretend:

When NPDs cynically use others to "feed" their false self, they know it.

When they overreact to perceived criticisms, they know what the truth is.

When they lie to conceal their inadequacies, they have chosen to deceive.

When they scapegoat others, they do so with deliberation.

When they refuse to apologize, they know they are in the wrong.

All of which means that free will is fully engaged in this so-called "disorder."

In effect, the NPD is more than a mental sickness. Pathological narcissism is not some noxious virus or bacteria that overtakes a person. Whatever the early childhood experiences, free will is still operative here. Rather, NPD is a moral disorder, because it is immoral to lie and to use, exploit, blame, and hurt others.

More than immoral, NPD is, at its foundation, a spiritual blight. Since the false self of the narcissist is extremely grandiose, she excludes herself from the moral norms that govern "lesser" beings: "rules don’t apply to me." That makes NPDs their own gods. In so doing, they are in denial of the fundamentally flawed nature of all human beings.

*****************************************

And there's more, at that link.

Just wondering what y'all think.

Carolyn

Gabben

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Re: Epiphany
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2008, 02:35:25 PM »
Carolyn,

Wow...as I was reading this I had an epiphany! Seriously,

Not to barge my way into a discussion with you, Izzy, lighter, and changing...I wanted to comment on what it was like for me to read your post here. I was thinking to myself that the only comparison I have to try to identify with the N's lack of guilt or remorse is my own lack of remorse at times in my life or my own sense of Nish traits that I have had to awaken to time and time again.

But, as I was reading it hit me...I am normal and humanly normal which means that I am flawed and prone to sin.

But, that does not make me lacking in consciousness or lacking in morality. It just means at times in my life I have not been very spiritually mature and or loving.

What makes it hard for me is to imagine a person willingly turning away from God..............Why?

What makes it hard for me is to try to understand who would want to deceive.................Why?

What makes it hard is that I assume that N's have to just be oblivious on some level.........Right?

It is just too hard for me to think that some Christian, who has a full understanding of the doctrine of faith as well as are believers, would still deceive and destroy by feeding off others for their own sake despite what they know to be true.

They just have to be ignorant of their actions, right?

When N-Saint slandered me this past year I actually think that she was clueless and was completely convinced that I was in the wrong with her. But, could it be that she is in full awareness of her evil, despite that she is wearing a mask of a super loving Christian?

It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around people doing wrong, willingly.

Part of my questioning comes from my intense desire to want to forgive, which I can, but also to want to see all people be saved.

But, I guess that not all people want to be saved.

Izzy_*now*

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Re: Epiphany
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2008, 03:41:01 PM »
Hi Carolyn, (this took a whiile)

That is a good site, and there are plenty of off-shoot links.

What I prefer is that someone has read such information from a professional/someone who knows, then the poster here put her personal spin on the what it really was like for her, what she learned.

I met the N, after I bought a computer from him. He was very knowledgeable about building computers. A friend picked it up brought it to me and hooked it up, but noticed a faulty video card. I called to have it replaced and N came. He was there for 6 hours.

He was there for 6 hours. I never thought about his extending a 10 minute job into 6 hours. I never thought about the lost time he was making for himself. We were chatting and getting along as though we had known each other forever, and I didn’t know that he had read me.  He said I was the nicest person he had ever met,. REALLY! I was a nice person (but he also read  ‘neediness , insecurity, money, and easy prey’)

He told me that his ex always called  him a loser and how he would never get anywhere in life. I saw it differently, as he was so well-versed in computers, the building of same and operation. He also said he had a University degree and was a teacher..

 I had once lived in his home town. Some coincidence, and attended the same church. We both were able to discuss the pastor and his wife and he would later send me a picture of the wife. He said he thought he  had seen me before--and it had to be in the Church.  We were amazed over this coincidence. Later I asked him when he stopped attending church and he said March, 1966. I began attending in September, 1966. He couldn’t have seen me and thought how ‘hot I was’.

What he told me about himself, brought out the mother in me, wanting to console him----pity---and make things right. It also made me share and what I had to share told him that I was available to move. Later we would move and now I am here 2000 miles away from family, but that is a good point for me.

I saw that he loved himself and hated himself. I saw that he was never at fault. I saw that he wouldn’t even allow me to cook. I once started a stir fry and he took over and really believed it all was his idea. I once made a terrific meal which I served up as he came home from a business call. He asked me the recipe and I said there was none, just something I did if I have certain ingredients. He was furious with me.

He took forever to deliver and set up a computer. Sheesh I ought to have known from the first day I met him and he wasted 6 hours. Since we were partners in a computer business, I was concerned about this lost time, when he bitched his work was piling up. He would become so overwhelmed that he would stop working about 2:30 and begin drinking. He was a loser and would get nowhere in life.

This could become a book but those are the real experiences of a victim, turned survivor, of a psychopath.
Yes! Psychopath. My first therapist pegged him as an N, then changed that to a P when she learned he had criminal records: statutory rape, (jail time), car theft (jail time), manslaughter--killed a 16 year old girl when driving drunk (jail time) -- then refusal to file tax returns, which involved me re the business, owed Government $70,000.00 for adult student loan for University, and refused to pay, because Karla Homalka, (google that name) in prison for murder, received free University Education. What he needed was someone else’s name on HIS business (I never made a cent) HIS bank accounts, so that the government could not seize his assets. (entitlement)

I left, removed my name and then the Gov’t descended, partially through me, but because they had my phone number, not his.    (????) hiding?

That’s enough to let everyone know, for now!
Izzy
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 03:44:48 PM by Izzy_*now* »
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

changing

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Re: Epiphany
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2008, 03:59:12 PM »
Hi Izzy My Deer-

I love the way that you articulated your preference for the type of information to read here- it is quite similar to my preference, though I haven't quite figured out how to express it ( I prefer information in the context of experience and science- not endless pontifications or circular logic-ridden groundless conjectures posing as truth)

That magnetic charming man seemed to weave a hypnotic spell - now you would see the loser and yet appreciate the charm. I don't know if I have come to that level yet- I tend to enjoy the charm if it is not too close, but cannot balance things like you do...still working on it. I'm going to Google that odd name now...

Love,

Changing


Certain Hope

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Re: Epiphany
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2008, 04:03:29 PM »
Hi, Izzy,

Thanks for responding and for letting me know your preference. I do recall reading you express similar qualifications in the past. Just thought that the info at this link fell right in line with what we were discussing last night, particularly with regard to the question of whether or not NPD can be cured.

The views expressed in the article which I excerpted here do come the closest to what I believe about the formation of N and the choice of the individual to remain in his condition. Fits right in with my own personal experience with ex and others, as well.

Also, I can compare my experience with yours, as you explained a bit here, and tell you that - every step of the way and sometimes in nearly exactly the same manner - my ex husband and his behavior matched directly with what you've described.
He was a loser and a user, indeed - but liked to assure me that he wasn't "used up yet".
He puttered and frittered and dreamed and monologued in volumes of empty talk, but rarely accomplished anything of substance.
etc, etc, etc.
It's clear to me that he marked me as a target early on, seeing that neediness and ability and potential to be his supply.
But it's also clear to me that there were some brief flashes of hope within him... that somehow he could take enough from me to make himself live again. When it became clear that I was not an inexhaustible source, he grew more sadistic and cruel.

And that's all I care to say about that... because it still sickens me.

Thanks for sharing, Izzy. I can see that our P/ N/ S or whatever they are had alot in common.
I believe that the one I married had a choice all along, but refused to give up the notion that I should be responsible for his success.

Carolyn

changing

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Re: Epiphany
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2008, 04:04:08 PM »
Hi Izzy-

I Googled the name. So awful- and no justice done in my opinion.

Changing

Certain Hope

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Re: Epiphany
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2008, 04:11:36 PM »
Dear Lise,


I don't know the answers, except that knowing the truth is not the same as receiving it and incorporating it into one's own being.

Also I thought that the quote at the end of that article by Dr. Maria Hsia Chang
did a good job of summing up the problem.

Decrying the ills that he saw rampant in modern society--the relativization of all moral norms and the reduction of life to the immediate pursuit of material gain without regard to its general consequences--VaÇlav Havel observed that "Given its fatal incorrigibility, humanity will have to go through many more Rwandas and Chernobyls before it understands how unbelievably short-sighted a human being can be who has forgotten that he is not God."

It is the misdiagnosis of pathological narcissism as a "personality disorder" instead of a moral-spiritual condition which accounts for psychiatrists’ characterization of it as "one of the most . . . difficult-to-treat conditions in the lexicon of mental illness.


From what I've seen, Lise... to NPD it feels like a matter of life and death... her very survival... to defend the lies on which she's staked her existence.
So from her perspective, maybe it doesn't feel that she has a choice. If she can't be "god", she doesn't want to be at all.

Love,
Carolyn