Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on June 17, 2008, 11:59:42 PM
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Hi Bean,
I thought I would answer your questions in a new topic so that it doesn't get erased.
Why address your post (first)? You were suggesting that I was being dishonest with the Board and you had private evidence to prove it. Such allegations strike at the heart of board safety and need to be addressed immediately.
I discussed my role as moderator in a previous post: http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5697.0
But let me add a few additional points. There is no perfect way to moderate a forum such as this. Some people will like the way the board is moderated, some people will not, and others will go back and forth depending upon current issues. There are people you will like on the board and people you won’t, people who will deeply offend you and who you wished would be booted off. Furthermore, different members will have different ideas about who should be booted off. The VESMB will never be a cozy place or a refuge, but I do hope it will be a place people can learn. Especially about themselves. That, to me, is the most important thing. IMO, without the conflicts, even at their current levels, people would have much less opportunity to learn about themselves. One other point: time is also an important factor, overlooked in the heat of the moment. Another person’s perception that is impossible to hear in the present because of the need to defend the self, may suddenly make sense down the road. This may take place one, two, or even three years later. Obviously, one of the first tasks of a therapist is to learn to be patient! I hope this helps.
Best,
Richard
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Dr G
I agree that Bean was NOT striking at the Boards safety, but trying to MAKE it safe(IMO)
Bean has tremendous courage to stand up to an "authority" figure, you, Dr G, who is our symbolic parent. It must have been very hard for her to send you and the board those PM's.Also, she got many people's posts and expressed their sentiments to you and asked you for an answer.
Dr G, Bean did what few of us in life WOULD do, to stand, Dr G, to stand with the truth, in a public format.
Bean would be one of the 30% on the Milgrim experiment who did NOT shock the man to death.
Bean is s/one I could only HOPE to emulate,in my greatest of days. Ami
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Dr G
I think it would be fair for people to know, more definitively, when they come on the board, that it IS an "enter at your own risk situation. I understand that it is and I do agree with that concept, in theory. However, any person who IS bullied wants to cry 'Uncle".
It would be nice to know that help WILL come ,but not until you are near the end(cyber death) Ami
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courage to stand up to an "authority" figure, you, Dr G, who is our symbolic parent.
(Good to remember that this is Ami's analysis of what is going on, but may not be Bean's take on it--even though Ami is talking about Bean's behavior. Wanted to make that clear before I continued-- and not put words in Bean's mouth)
It has occurred to me that this--standing up to an perceived authority figure--is what is going on on many fronts.
I had a little one that used to stamp his foot at me and say "you are not the boss of ME!" I see a lot of that here.
This is a universal stage of healing--to find someone who can stand in for the abuser and can take all the whacks that the victim wishes he/she had the courage to inflict on the real perpetrator.
The problem is--good people would never gleefully whack an innocent by stander. And I believe that we are good people (not sociopaths, in other words.) The fact that this kind of whacking is going on is evidence of how deep the pain is and how very unresolved it still is. I don't think that the whacking we are seeing on the board is even a conscious decison by the whackers.
Co-N's tend to listen to what people say instead of what they do--if a perpetrator says they are normal, we scratch our heads and try to figure out why in the world they don't LOOK normal. When someone on the board says they are healed, that they have gotten to their inner child issues, that they no longer have parent issues (or husband issues, or whatever)--that doesnt mean that they are or that they don't.
Sometimes just knowing that explains a lot.
CB
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It's certainly a matter of perspective. The people you identify as "whackers" are in my view people who are standing up to the "whackers" and not willing to take it any more.
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GS,
I didnt identify any whackers.
CB
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A lot depends on an individual's choice of words (and behavior) toward another, in any situation.
10. Passive-aggressive: (Anger Expressed Inappropriately)
* Put-downs
* Sarcasm
* Insults
* Rudeness
* Sabotage
* Intimidation
* Belittling Remarks
Leah x
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I just want to point out one thing regarding the idea that some posters are using sock puppets to post.
I work in the computer world, and there is a simple way to find out if the suspected posters are one and the same.
First, each time someone logs onto this board, the server where it is housed logs an IP address. Ip addresses carry lots of information. I don't know what sort of management software is being used here, but there is a good chance that location is also logged with the IP address. Please remember this is a world wide board, and if Dr. G has looked at the IP addresses and locations, then there is no sock puppeting going on. Unless all of the locations are close to one another or the poster has some very good computer hacking skills, I don't think that's what's going on here. Similarities between posts is not good enough evidence to make such an accusation.
I think people need to remember that this is an internet forum. It is not therapy. It is not really a support group. It is a discussion board, and it cannot take the place of sitting in a therapists office or in a 3-D support group. This medium limits the ability of people to see body language and facial expression, hear voice inflection, see tears. It limits the ability to touch and comfort. No internet forum can be truly safe, no matter how stringent the rules regarding posting.
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Bean,
I'd like to ask you a sincere question here. If it turns into a blow-up, I'll walk away from it instantly, but I hope that you'll take this in the spirit in which I'm asking.
Seriously - I am not understanding this - -
How is it that you seem to think it's appropriate for you to be asking these things of Dr. Grossman?
You want him to examine whether he's being honest with himself, because.... why?
Is it because you don't want to participate on this board without that assurance?
Or is it because you became so deeply invested in your suspicions that it's just so difficult to let it go?
Please, Bean, understand that I am not being smart-aleck about this. I've felt deeply invested in some stuff that was only leading me into misery.
I'm not saying that's the case with you, just wondering.
What does all of this represent to you?
Thanks.
Carolyn
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I just want to point out one thing regarding the idea that some posters are using sock puppets to post.
I work in the computer world, and there is a simple way to find out if the suspected posters are one and the same.
First, each time someone logs onto this board, the server where it is housed logs an IP address. Ip addresses carry lots of information. I don't know what sort of management software is being used here, but there is a good chance that location is also logged with the IP address. Please remember this is a world wide board, and if Dr. G has looked at the IP addresses and locations, then there is no sock puppeting going on. Unless all of the locations are close to one another or the poster has some very good computer hacking skills, I don't think that's what's going on here. Similarities between posts is not good enough evidence to make such an accusation.
I think people need to remember that this is an internet forum. It is not therapy. It is not really a support group. It is a discussion board, and it cannot take the place of sitting in a therapists office or in a 3-D support group. This medium limits the ability of people to see body language and facial expression, hear voice inflection, see tears. It limits the ability to touch and comfort. No internet forum can be truly safe, no matter how stringent the rules regarding posting.
Thank you so much, Tayana
for explaining so clearly.
Leah x
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hi Carolyn,
I'm not offended that you asked in the least. The reason I asked Dr. G if he was being honest with himself about his limitations is that I care about him and the posters on this board.
Secondly, it can be incredibly healing when a person in a position of authority takes the time to listen to me, I've found. It validates that my perspective is worthwhile and as valid as theirs.
I know this board is not therapy, but through my own therapy I've found that the process of trusting others is difficult, but worth it. Because I trust Dr. G, I offered some of my thoughts to him, for him to consider. If he had chosen to accept them for what I intended them to be - mutually beneficial - then it would have increased both of our respect for one another and others would have seen it too. No risk, no gain. But with risk there is always the possibility of being let down, which I feel now. I'm not saying one shouldn't risk for the reason they may be let down, I believe it is absolutely necessary to risk establishing trust with others for healing to begin and continue for a lifetime.
bean
Thanks, Bean.
I really appreciate your kind reply and the opportunity to understand your thoughts and feelings better.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Leah.... are you talking about the sock puppet allegations, referencing tay's post, when you refer to "mind games rolled out onto the board>?"
Or something else?
Asking for clarity, here.
Lighter
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Bean,
I was speaking to Ami's comment that you were standing up to Dr. G as a surrogate parent. I don't know that you were actually doing that--but her analysis gave opportunity to bring up that I think that that happens a lot on the board. Sometimes confusing conversations that seem to go far beyond the issue at hand can be explained by that dynamic.
I have been surprised at some of the venom directed at Dr. G in the last week. I have a lot of respect for him, personally, but I also am probably old-school that you don't speak using those kinds of terms to someone who is in some position of authority (as he is on this board--that is the reason he has been appealed to over and over in the last week). I guess I see that the authority of the position deserves respect. That's me.
I wasnt speaking at all to your conversation with Dr. G--only to Ami's characterization of the dynamic. Sorry if that was confusing.
CB
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I do apologize, Lighter
as I had simply withdrawn (as in a delete action) my discernment and thought, personal opinion, just prior to your request.
I don't want to go down that road, upon consideration.
Leah x
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I appreciate your withdrawl, if you aren't going to clarify.
Thanks, Lighter
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I appreciate your withdrawl, if you aren't going to clarify.
Thanks, Lighter
Lighter,
The whole point is, that I had withdrawn, therefore, there isn't anything to clarify!
Hope you enjoy your day, best wishes to you.
Leah
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Hi Bean,
I’ve read and appreciated your thoughts. I have no more to add for now, but I’ll continue to think about the topic.
Please identify the person or people you believe are trolling or remove the reference in your post on this thread. Thanks.
Best,
Richard
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Hiya Bean,
I read back there that you feel......."let down".....I think it was?
Sorry to hear that. I suppose you mean you feel disappointed (which for me usually means I didn't get the outcome I was expecting.....which is very letting downish.....so ((((((((((Bean))))))))).
One thing --referring to your words/posts (and I get caught up in this myself so maybe I'm just projecting here):
If he had chosen to accept them for what I intended them to be
First I wanna say I'm a big believer in intention. I think intention does count. I think intention is a big piece of the pie but not the whole pie (if that makes any sense).
However.....big question coming:
How do we know another's intention????
Is there a way to know that for sure (if the person does not state it clearly, I guess I mean)?
Just something to think about or discard if it's totally useless for you.
My intention, by the way is to help, if possible and at least express some kinship/understanding/friendship/empathy even......though I don't always do the best job of it.
Sela
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Oh, come on leah, lol.
Let's just go ahead and communicate in a direct manner.......
and have done with.
You and I have been dancing around the board, sans resolution, for a while now.
I really was looking forward to clarification.
Your posts always bring more q uestions to mind, than they answer (at least, for me.)
I'm curiouse what would happen if you re-thought your recent statement:
" I don't want to go down that road, upon consideration."
What do you think's at the end of that road?
If anything?
Lighter
I do apologize, Lighter
as I had simply withdrawn (as in a delete action) my discernment and thought, personal opinion, just prior to your request.
I don't want to go down that road, upon consideration.
Leah x
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Oh, Gosh, Bean
Somebody is damn busy! Ami
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Poppyseed was a good friend of mine.
In fact, I recently put out a post to her, just letting her know that she was in my thoughts, in case she still reads occasionally.
Poppy, if you should happen upon this thread, please know that you can return and post under any name you'd like. I know why you left and I'd surely understand if you didn't want to return at this point, however.
Love,
Carolyn
P.S. As to the other people (also friends of mine) who are being referred to in this way, I'd just like to say that I appreciate each one of you - Changing, Izzy, Lighter, and Peace - and after talking with each of you personally, I know in my heart that you are individual people and not merely names on a message board or trouble-stirring vixens. Thank you for being real.
The others with whom I've had no personal contact, well... I can't say, but I'm sorry for them to be put through this... and I think it's wrong to list them this way, as though they are objects, and not people.
That is just my opinion.
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no problem Dr. G - I think lighter is trolling and changing, finding peace and Izzy have fanned the fire. If you want me to come up with the specific examples of where this happend, I'll try to do so but it will take me some time.
I have also wondered about sun, poppy, lollie and observer. They may not have been trolls but they did mysteriously appear and disappear and responded to lighter primarily.
bean
When you do find proof, if you can, please start a new thread so I can see what you are talking about regarding my participation in 'fanning the fire'.
I am some surprised to see this post!
Thanks
Izzy
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Dear Bean,
Poppyseed, I considered as being a lovely person.
Lollie, I discerned as being a genuine person. An intelligent woman of integrity with a mind of her own, posted with freedom. Who left the board because of ALL that has been occuring here.
I remember someone posted months ago - that just because one doesn't agree with another's expressed thoughts/opinion/worldview - that doesn't equate to a person being a 'troll puppet'
Leah x
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Ami,
I'm not saying lighter is all these people. I'm saying I have seen evidence of lighter trolling (attacking people) and these others knowingly or unknowingly may have responded to create more confusion.
bean
Dear Ami and bean,
Yes...I have seen lighter attacking people too. I have seen her taunt and make light of others peoples pain. However, I put aside my prejudice...I put aside my old ideas, I forgave and went to lighter directly to ask her the burning questions in me that had arose out of PM land and gossip.
It never quite sat in my heart that lighter was two or three other people. It never sat in my heart that lighter was a man or a troll.
Slander and gossip breed confusion and that is exactly what I had when I tried to chew on these false ideas about lighter.
Perhaps...Ami and Bean...you are both nursing a grudge towards lighter for her past bully type behavior? Sure, does it make for an unsafe board...you betcha...but as Tanaya said, the board will never be safe. If I want to be here then I have to make up my mind to side step a few landmines.
I went directly to lighter...she answered my questions directly. Is she perfect? NO....are any of us? NO.
My two cents...I'm tired of the whole lighter is three other people and lighter is a bully so let's put all of our waking energy into getting her kicked off the board so that it will be a safe place story.
If I am wrong about lighter then I'd rather face God and say "I was wrong," but at least I treated her the way the way that I would want to be treated.
Lise
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Dr. Grossman,
You wrote, "One other point: time is also an important factor, overlooked in the heat of the moment. Another person’s perception that is impossible to hear in the present because of the need to defend the self, may suddenly make sense down the road. This may take place one, two, or even three years later. Obviously, one of the first tasks of a therapist is to learn to be patient!"
THANK YOU! so much for validating my exact feelings on this. I have been labeled in the past as a "process" person and I guess I take that to mean that it takes me a long time sometimes to process the meaning of a communication. Sometimes it's days later, and like you say, sometimes it's YEARS later. Yes!
I have stated several times in posts about what you have reminded us here of - the brain stops taking in new information when it's angry. We must learn to be patient and not respond to posts that anger, distress, and trigger us.
Huge lesson for us all.
Thank you for your board - it has been most helpful to me - all around - all of it - even the conflicts have taught me TONS.
Dandylife
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Gabben:
quote from Gabben
and lighter is a bully so let's put all of our waking energy into getting her kicked off the board so that it will be a safe place story.
For the sake of all that's Holy, this is the most offensive post I have read. I had to read it 2-3 times to realize you mean it?
To gang up on one women because of your unsure thoughts and following the easiest route to damn lighter.....
Quote from Gabben
If I am wrong about lighter then I'd rather face God.....
If if If if and you will not be facing God, I expect....
Quote from Gabben
....the way that I would want to be treated.
?????????
Still in shock
Izzy
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Gabben:
quote from Gabben
and lighter is a bully so let's put all of our waking energy into getting her kicked off the board so that it will be a safe place story.
For the sake of all that's Holy, this is the most offensive post I have read. I had to read it 2-3 times to realize you mean it?
To gang up on one women because of your unsure thoughts and following the easiest route to damn lighter.....
Quote from Gabben
If I am wrong about lighter then I'd rather face God.....
If if If if and you will not be facing God, I expect....
Quote from Gabben
....the way that I would want to be treated.
?????????
Still in shock
Izzy
Izzy -- sorry that you took my post the wrong way -- it seems that you misread? Perhaps you could go back and carefully review it again to see better what I was saying.
Anyway...I'm not damning lighter...I like lighter. All that is in my post above has been said to lighter in private, by me, as well as it is all over this board...nothing is new there.
Lise
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Quote from Izzy
For the sake of all that's Holy, this is the most offensive post I have read. I had to read it 2-3 times to realize you mean it?
See the ?
That's why I questioned it, but your wording does leave something to be desired.
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Hi bean
I am open to receive criticism due me, so am just asking for the example that led you to name me.
Obviously that would show me the error of my ways, but I am wondering why you are unwilling to be cooperative.
Izzy
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Sometimes it's better for me to examine my intention before shooting off my mouth!
Well Bean, maybe it's not so much your intention (or mine or anyone's for that matter) that needs so much examining as.....
our expectations (what outcome we most desire)???
We (speaking for what I believe of most people on this board) for the most part.....have basically good intentions.
However, what we want to happen......may not necessarily happen. The outcome, even though our good intentions, might be quite different (and in my case 1/2 the time, unexpected or not anticipated because I'm just not really thinking about how the other person might interpret my words or I assume they are clear words, which they are.....hahahaha.....to me).
That's another piece of the communication pie maybe?
1. Intention
2. Expected outcome
I dunno. I'm really trying to learn to communicate better I feel like I really have a lot to learn though and it's not for lack of trying.
You mentioned paranoia too up there.
WoooHHOOOoooooo baby paranoia! Anyone here never experienced it?
I keep wondering if it isn't one of the most destructive results of being abused (and most common??). Trust is destroyed and fear replaces it.
((((((((((((Bean)))))))))) another hug.
Been there. Done that. It's so hard to get out of that mode sometimes. For me anyhow. For others too I expect.
Some days I've told myself that I can trust no one, that people are just into themselves and I'm better off relating to my dogs. I trust my dogs.
I don't want to believe that. I consider myself a mostly positive thinker and I know deep inside my negative thoughts do not help me but some days, I really think that and feel that way anyhow. Too many hurts? I'm in victim mode those times I guess. Rambling again.
Sorry I ran off track there.
Sela
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no problem Dr. G - I think lighter is trolling and changing, finding peace and Izzy have fanned the fire. If you want me to come up with the specific examples of where this happend, I'll try to do so but it will take me some time.
I have also wondered about sun, poppy, lollie and observer. They may not have been trolls but they did mysteriously appear and disappear and responded to lighter primarily.
bean
Bean,
You are not saying Izzy is a troll? Ami
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Dear Bean,
I want to let you know that I have read your posts to me here on this thread.
At this juncture, I feel unable to respond in a manner which would not further enflame the current issues.
Maybe at another time.
My last post was for the benefit of those whom you've named on the listing you've posted
and it proceeded directly from my strong sympathies for them, based on how I myself would feel to read that I was suspected of being a troll/sock puppet/any other label.
Especially, I have strong feelings for Poppyseed's sake, considering that I only recently extended a greeting to her... and when I saw her name on your list, I felt a heavy dread that I might have inadvertently created yet another painful situation for her.
Those are my feelings, Bean, and not an attempt to answer your direct questions of me. I realize that. But this is all I have at the moment.
Carolyn
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hi Carolyn,
I'm sorry that the communication between us has shut-down again. I understand that this is your choice and respect that.
I do want to say that I'm sad that everytime we seem to get close to a break-through, into real understanding, I have noticed you back away. I'm not sure if you might be afraid of me or just the topics I'm bringing up, but that is my fear.
bean
Bean?
If you would like to give me examples of occasions in which our communication has shut down in the past, I'd be glad to discuss that with you.
I don't recall any such times.
And I don't recall occasions on which you and I seemed to get close to a breakthrough.
In fact, I never sensed that we needed a breakthrough.
Please tell me what I've missed?
No, I am not afraid of you, Bean.
I'm not afraid of your topics, either... regardless of whether or not I share your view.
What I do see clearly is that you and I have had a completely different perspective of our aquaintance-ship and that surprises me alot!
Please do tell, as you're ready and if you want, of the circumstances which have given you these impressions.
Thanks.
Carolyn
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You are cool ,Bean. Can I sign up for lessons????? Ami
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Being Cool, bean! Ami
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Dear CB
Alice Miller talks about people's fears of authority b/c they could not stand up to their parents. Then, they become sheepish people, which most people are, as evidenced by Social Psychology experiments, like the Milgrim experiement.
It takes a self actualized person to stand up to authority, in whatever form.
I saw that in Bean and wanted to offer ,my respect b/c she is beyond me , in that. Ami
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Hi Dr. Grossman,
But let me add a few additional points. There is no perfect way to moderate a forum such as this. Some people will like the way the board is moderated, some people will not, and others will go back and forth depending upon current issues. There are people you will like on the board and people you won’t, people who will deeply offend you and who you wished would be booted off. Furthermore, different members will have different ideas about who should be booted off. The VESMB will never be a cozy place or a refuge, but I do hope it will be a place people can learn. Especially about themselves. That, to me, is the most important thing. IMO, without the conflicts, even at their current levels, people would have much less opportunity to learn about themselves. One other point: time is also an important factor, overlooked in the heat of the moment. Another person’s perception that is impossible to hear in the present because of the need to defend the self, may suddenly make sense down the road. This may take place one, two, or even three years later. Obviously, one of the first tasks of a therapist is to learn to be patient! I hope this helps.
Whew, what relief. No need to keep looking for the black box! :lol:
tt
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Bean has tremendous courage to stand up to an "authority" figure, you, Dr G, who is our symbolic parent.
Can't say I ever considered the good Doc a parent of any sort, symbolic or otherwise.
Can't say I ever considered him an authority figure any more than the proprietor of any other establishment I might enter or leave at my choosing either.
Can't even say I had any idea that's how others perceived him.
Can say one thing however; at what point and why did the general discussion on the board come to be about the board itself and its internal dynamics and personalities and cease being about people's external experiences with Ns?
mud
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Hi, Mud,
I think it became about the board when the board dynamics became the primary source of pain in many of the members' lives.
I think.
CB
P.S. Was hoping you would come around--it's always worth the wait...
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Bean has tremendous courage to stand up to an "authority" figure, you, Dr G, who is our symbolic parent.
Can say one thing however; at what point and why did the general discussion on the board come to be about the board itself and its internal dynamics and personalities and cease being about people's external experiences with Ns?
Perhaps because N(s) are here on the board and create some havoc....I'm speaking in general terms and not in accusation at anyone.
Just a thought.
Perhaps the discussion turned from our FOO pain and the pain we experienced by current N's in our life to the internal board itself when the board itself took on an N atmosphere, real or imagined?
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Perhaps because N(s) are here on the board and create some havoc....I'm speaking in general terms and not in accusation at anyone.
Just a thought.
Perhaps the discussion turned from our FOO pain and the pain we experienced by current N's in our life to the internal board itself when the board itself took on an N atmosphere, real or imagined?
Dear Mud,
I think Lise summed it up perfectly. Until there are no N's, N like people and N qualities in ourselves, there will be conflict. here, outside your door, at a cocktail party, a football game ,any group. Ami
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Thanks for the responses, guy.
I think possibly an unfortunate tendency of some to ascribe to every slight, every ambiguous statement and every person whom they find less than agreeable the dreaded N is at the root of why the board is, as I put it on a different thread, "useless".
Not every personality quirk or personal conflict has narcissisim at its root and not every person with whom we do not get along should be tagged with the term.
It seems to me it is this (mis)perception and the knee jerk application of N to every unfortunate who pokes his/her head up over the weeds and says something we don't like which has created the current atmosphere, not actual Nism.
When somebody we don't like is just a jerk all we can say is they're a jerk and once we've said it nobody wants to hear it twice because it's just a personal conflict.
When somebody is an N however we're free to go on a crusade to dig them out root and branch as the pervasive evil that people have come here to escape and heal from.
Perhaps the discussion turned from our FOO pain and the pain we experienced by current N's in our life to the internal board itself when the board itself took on an N atmosphere, real or imagined?
A third possibility beyond the terms real or imagined might be "created". What I see is not so much an N atmosphere as an anti-N atmosphere, where the letter N or the subtle implication of the letter without its explicit use has become a kind of default mechanism by which to attack or defend.
mud
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A third possibility beyond the terms real or imagined might be "created". What I see is not so much an N atmosphere as an anti-N atmosphere, where the letter N or the subtle implication of the letter without its explicit use has become a kind of default mechanism by which to attack or defend.
mud
Mud,
Disagree.
How are you to know that there are not real N's here?
What makes you and expert on the atomosphere here?
It seems to me that you pop your head in on the board, mainly when there is conflict, then you dissapear?
Do you read the board? Do you take in the dynamic? It can be pretty hard to make and assesment of the structure here if you are not here.
Who are you anyway?
Also, telling us that what we perceive is not what we percieve can be pretty mind-messing, to put it nicely. It makes me wonder...why would you tell us:
"When somebody we don't like is just a jerk all we can say is they're a jerk and once we've said it nobody wants to hear it twice because it's just a personal conflict.
When somebody is an N however we're free to go on a crusade to dig them out root and branch as the pervasive evil that people have come here to escape and heal from."
Bottom line - I read your post and I felt like a toxic waste of shame was just dumped on me....
Mud sticks best to a clean spot, why is your name mud.....anyways?
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Hi Lise,
Mud is good.
Opinionated
and
good.
love,
Hops
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Hi Mud
When somebody is an N however we're free to go on a crusade to dig them out root and branch as the pervasive evil that people have come here to escape and heal from."
I thought Gabben's post was quite heavy-handed, but it's not surprising.
Perhaps what is in the quote is part of why she ran, as if she had been singled out.
This is my last comment on her, re her anger.
Izzy
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If Lise is reading, *I* don't like her insulted. That is my 2 cents or 3 cents. Ami
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Oops.
You're right Bean, we have No Contact.
Sorry.
Hops
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hi all,
while i believe that there is certainly an N presence here, i am both unable, due to my sporadic visitation and general disinterest in conflict, and unwilling to indicate exactly which personality(ies). i do believe however that a tree is known by the fruit it bears. right now, during this latest rash of board conflicts, i believe we have all in some form, become the victims of board Nism, which is, at its very basis, gossip about one another, and an extremely low threshold for criticism and introspection. these, to me indicate that there must be a personality or group (Nism can come in the form of a group personality) unwilling to take heed to the call to resolve the conflict, but is politely and every so manipulatively, keeping the conflict and confusion going. that is true Nism, evil at it's basic level. The Enemy is pleased when we get along in this way. and on the topic of whether or not someone is a N versus Nistic, i'll defer to the operationdoubles site which states: if you wish to know whether or not someone is a N, simply ask them to stop the offending behavior. a N will not cease in the behavior, in turn, s/he will only apply it more heavily. keep in mind that N's are not overt, they are subtle and seemingly kind in their demeanor. the N benefits from covertly manipulating people into a tizzy while the vocal, opinionated, angry, and/or sensitive take the hit for causing the conflict. we could all benefit from stepping back and gaining some perspective on what roles we've played in allowing ourselves to join certain bandwagons and to participate in certain propaganda. if nothing else, we need to all take ourselves about 10 times less seriously, right now. this is not really as intense as it seems.
take care friends,
tiffany
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How are you to know that there are not real N's here?
I don't. I just said I didn't think that it was the primary reason the board was 'dysfunctional' for want of a better word.
What makes you and expert on the atomosphere here?
Same thing that makes other people experts who comment on the atmosphere here I guess.
It seems to me that you pop your head in on the board, mainly when there is conflict, then you dissapear?
Yeah, usually in an attempt to point out the futility of the conflict. I also occasionally pop in to make bad jokes and to needle Hops.
Do you read the board?
Yes, that is how I quote others.
Do you take in the dynamic?
I think so, that is why I occasionally comment on it. I suspect however I do not see it precisely as you do.
It can be pretty hard to make and assesment of the structure here if you are not here.
I have explained before why my posting has dropped off. However that does not mean I am not 'here'.
Who are you anyway?
If you would like my full name, address, phone number and SSN I'm afraid I can't help. If you mean what is my backstory you can wade through my past posts if you'd like to understand me somewhat better. If you mean am I a sock puppet, you have obviously never smelled one of my socks because it is highly unlikely anyone would voluntarily put their hand in one. If you mean something else then I'm afraid I'm at a loss.
Also, telling us that what we perceive is not what we percieve can be pretty mind-messing, to put it nicely.
I merely disagreed in a general way with some aspects of what some other people said; kind of like starting one's post out with "Mud,
Disagree." I didn't assume you were 'mind-messing' with me, so why assume I'm doing anything different?
Bottom line - I read your post and I felt like a toxic waste of shame was just dumped on me....
Sorry you felt that way but that wasn't my intention. I was only using your line to make a point of my own. I wasn't even commenting directly on your observation. There may be an element of truth to both yours and mine. Not sure why you took offense, I just used your quote as a taking off point. Wasn't even thinking of you in any of my comments before your quote, was just making general comments.
Mud sticks best to a clean spot,
I never knew that, it always seems to stick pretty well to other mud in my experience. Guess you learn something new everyday.
why is your name mud.....anyways?
It's not; it's mudpuppy. I used to sign off as mudpuppy or mudpup but, being somewhat lazy and a typist of the one finger variety found mud to fit my laconic lifestyle somewhat better. If you're making a play on the old saw about 'his name is mud', I've been called a lot worse.
the amphibian formerly known as mud
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Hi Tiffany,
i do believe however that a tree is known by the fruit it bears and all the rest you said here!
tt
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bean,
things are very good, these days, thanks for asking. i'm in month two of NC with my mom, so that probably has a lot to do with why things have been flowing well with me. it's pretty sad to see the dis-ease on the board now. it makes me think of the "marta days" and the "reallyME" times. those were times i don't wish to repeat, and my flight/avoidant personality dictates that i remain in lurkland where i can appreciate you alls' experiences and ways of coping without the scrutiny and judgment that comes along with expressing a bold opinion (and i just can't seem to help it, i've learned). dr. g's right, you learn a lot about yourself during these conflicts.
mud,
i luv you, dude! 8)
p.s. guys, i've been thinking of starting a thread called: To Newbies and Would-Be Newbies... where I welcome them to our albeit dysfunctioinal family with the promise that this (conflict) too shall pass and when we arise again we will be like phoenixes or is it, phoenices or maybe just "The" (collective) Phoenix from the ashes, all shiny and wise. They should know that it's not always like this, that once upon a time, newbies were met with empathy and hundreds of (((((((((((((((parentheses))))))))))))))))).
off i go,
tiffany
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I do believe however that a tree is known by the fruit it bears.
You are quite correct, Tiffany
and I am glad that you have spoken with a clear voice, and clarity.
Love, Leah
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Hi Tiffany,
i've been thinking of starting a thread called: To Newbies and Would-Be Newbies...
This brought to mind what Groucho Marx said: I would not join any club that would have someone like me for a member." :lol:
tt
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dear tt,
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
tiff
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Dear Mud,
I think Lise summed it up perfectly. Until there are no N's, N like people and N qualities in ourselves, there will be conflict. here, outside your door, at a cocktail party, a football game ,any group.
Not picking at you Ami - but your quote brought up what I believe to be common misconception in healing that can actually create new problems. Instead of saying N qualities - I'm going to use the word ego.
I lived with a very tiny, tiny, small, ego for a long time. It was actually the biggest thing I had to overcome... why?
Because it limits one's voice...
It believes things like "I'm not important" - "I'm not worth it" - "I'm bad".
I had to learn to grow my ego to gain a voice (become more N, if you will) - to be a BALANCED, whole person.
I think Mud's made a very important point; not everything you don't agree with, not every difficulty you run into is just more N. Life is always going to contain these kinds of things. Can't avoid 'em. The guy who cuts you off in traffic... the boss who takes credit for your work... it's just always gonna be there - but it's not that they're all Ns.
If you try to eradicate all sense of your own ego - it's a very hurtful place, gray & dingy, a never-ending cycle of crawling up the gravel mountain - with each step you try to take, the gravel slides you back down lower than where you started. Without an ego - N in yourself - who's left to cry out in pain, frustration, anger or grief? Who's left to ask for help and say thank you? Who's left to try to escape - free yourself - and want to be free?
N characteristics are GOOD when they are in balance with consideration for others, empathy, being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes... caring.
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PR
Very good post re N qualities in ourselves-- I don't see any in me and agree that the phrase is wrong to post about our members! We ought to look in the mirror before posting about others.
Izzy
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Bean:
I never saw you putting yourself in a "one up" position.... at least that was never my take on it.
I saw you defending others and drawing conclusions I couldn't understand.
I have to ask.... on what were you basing those conclusions regarding trolls and my posting as multiple posters?
Was it the opinions of others... or your own discernment?
Disclaimer: If your post was in reference to something entirely other than what I've brought up here.... please tell me gently and I'll remove my post.
Lighter
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Gotcha, on my question, bean.
On your question....
I think you're really striving to figure out your part in troubled communications and resolve them.
Since I struggle with the same issues right now..... I find your search interesting and enlightening.
Lighter
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Only because if you really want to know, I think that would be best left to PM as I'm not sure all here have a need to know.
Bean,
I think I would agree: that everyone here did not need to know that some members had suspicions that Lighter was more than one person on the board. I think that those suspicions were posted on the board prematurely.
But, they WERE posted. And discussed. There were cryptic posts hoping that this person would "find peace", etc. The whole board was in an uproar and we lost several members. I think we are long past the point where "need to know" has any bearing at all.
I think it would have been very, very appropriate, SINCE THE ACCUSATIONS WERE MADE, that the evidence for them were presented as well. I have never understood why the accusations, innuendos, cryptic posts, etc. were flying around the board without a shred of evidence given to support them. (the fact that Ami thought Changing was dead doesnt qualify as evidence).
Every religion or ethical discipline that I can think of, has as a basic tenet that one does not accuse another person falsely. And to bring an accusation against someone else carries with it the responsiblity to support that accusation. I don't understand your position now, that those of us who had to endure the week-long accusations do not have the "need to know" the basis of those accusations.
As far as whether or not you did a good job of explaining yourself--in my opinion, I saw a lot of effort on your part to be reasonable and measured in your responses. I don't think you always did it perfectly. But, this was a very upsetting episode on the board and there were a lot of things flying around--I dont think it was possible to even KNOW what the best response was, in many cases.
I think that it's very hard for any of us to evaluate each other's responses. I believe that there are so many behind-the-scenes issues going on that it would be hard to untangle all of it. It wasnt til this morning when I read your apology to Ami that I realized for the first time that the discussion behind the scenes about trolling was begun by you. (am I reading that correctly?)
That's so sad, to me. A little comment to someone in a PM: maybe Lighter is a troll. And from there the ball started rolling and built momentum until we were all hurt. And at the end of it, Lighter is still here. Finding Peace is still here. Changing is still here. Dr. G. has assured us that they are not the same people. But there are wounded people (both the intended targets and collateral damage) lying everywhere. I'm not sure that your measured response on the board can compensate for the damage that was done behind the scenes.
This is not an opinion that I wanted to post, but your most recent post commented that you only get responses when you don't ask for them and you dont get them when you do. I hope I don't get flamed for making an observation that was requested. But, given the past week on the board, I don't think anything will surprise me.
CB
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Hi ALL
Realization:
With all due respect, this situation is not all about just one week, this last week.
In reality, this situation has been ongoing for the last 6 months.
From: January 04, 2008
Thread: what is a Troll?
Therein, the thought was presented and most likely implanted to the minds of all members on the board, with perhaps, most likely, an ongoing wave of 'paranoia' maybe, at the very least, uncertainty.
Thereafter, from January 04, 2008 - would be the flow of analysis and wonderment within PM land, and maybe also, on the board.
What was it that had occurred on the board in order for someone to have need to create a Troll thread?
> In December there had been episodes of conflict on the board -- with all kinds of stuff flaying around in our midst.
Just a realization of thought, having taken time to stand back, and read the board.
Hoping to bring clarity to the whole situation relative to the last 6 months.
Leah x
Hoping we can find it within ourselves to accept one another.
PS. Personally, I had to contend with the mystery “Betelgeuse” posting on board in April’08.
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Leah,
My reference to the past week has to do with when it hit the board. You're probably right, this has been going on in PM land for much longer. But most of us (or just me???) have been blissfully unaware of it. It has only been in the last week or so that we were accorded the need to know.
CB
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Leah,
My reference to the past week has to do with when it hit the board. You're probably right, this has been going on in PM land for much longer. But most of us (or just me???) have been blissfully unaware of it. It has only been in the last week or so that we were accorded the need to know.
CB
Hi CB,
I do realize that you have been away from the board for some time. Generally, I can't speak for anyone else, as to whether they were, or were not, aware of it.
I do think that given the lengthy "What is a Troll" thread and subsequent threads at the time, it may be likely that there are those of whom who were aware. But, I cannot surmise, one way or the other.
At this juncture, I feel it is wise to look at the whole picture, and bearing in mind, that what flows through all members in PM land, usually does have an effect on the board, in particular, the threads/postings.
Just my experiential thoughts here. And, I do feel that at this time, now at last that all is out in the open, which is healthy, rather than festering behind the scenes, we can perhaps bring clarity and understanding.
With a real hope of moving on -- to better things, in a wholesome way of "Healthy Community" for all.
Love, Leah
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Hi Leah,
A couple of people have commented that I have been away from the board until recently.
I havent been. I have not been posting. But I have kept up with the board, usually every day for at least a few minutes.
I decided several months ago that what I am working through at this point in my life was not helpful to discuss on the board, given where most members are. Many on the board are working through mother issues right now. My issues are with trying to learn to trust in a post-N romantic relationship. When I quit posting, the question was on the table about whether more damage had been done to those in N-romantic relationships or N-parental relationships. I didnt feel there was a place for me in the midst of that discussion, or in the midst of some of the other things that were going on.
I still would like to have a place to talk about what I am slogging through. I still don't think that this is the time to do it on this board. But I still care for the people here, I have never stopped caring for what happens here, and I am grieved beyond words for what I have seen posted in the last week. Since I was not included in the PM discussion, I won't comment on anything there (except to agree with you that it has probably been ongoing for a long time).
CB
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((((((((( CB ))))))))))))
I do apologize to you, sincerely.
There again, a case of not knowing, as one can't really know, or be expected to know. After all, we don't register a time attendance card as in 'clock in' and 'clock out' ! Actually, the same with anyone who decides to sit outside the board, it does not equate to anything untoward, yet, I have witnessed those of whom who choose to think that there is something untoward. Of which, personally, I had it said about me, in so much as I happened to come and go with postings -- in reference to another(s) board member. Upon reading the accusation, truly, I was stunned, and found it most bizarre indeed. (i.e. the mystery poster 'Betelgeuse' who posted in April'08).
Tis a funny old 'on-line' world sometimes, and at other times, not quite so funny, in all seriousness.
Love to you,
Leah
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Hi again, CB
Just wanted to say, that with regard to "My issues are with trying to learn to trust in a post-N romantic relationship"
That is where I am at now, not that I have met anyone, but, the question of "how do I go about learning to trust someone in a post-N relationship?"
With many questions, and wonderment, on this important next stage.
Having had Nparents and Nexh of course, in the equation.
So, I do hear your need, though of course, personally, I have not yet met anyone.
Love, Leah
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NO one can know, for sure, who is a troll .A troll is basically s/one who wants to bully when it is all said and done. We,as adults, have to form our own conclusions, as we do with all things in life and on the board.
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thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I PM'd you regarding your other question.
How can anyone have an enlightened discussion when the PMs are really driving the discussion? This is so "small town". And I think it is manipulative. To those who have just read the thread, it suggests there is an inner clique that "knows" the real scoop. So the issue becomes one of how to be part of the inner clique in order to have their voice heard. Of course, it does suggest that one needs to have an inner circle.......in order to be really heard???
Look, if you need to have that inner circle of what you consider to be your true communication, go for it. However, in the interest of those of us who naively assume that we are speaking one to one, give a disclaimer???
For example the disclaimer could be: I'm posting this for all the board....but I have my "true" friends who tell me what everyone else is really thinking and saying???? And I will respond to them not you accordingly. In other words, I will post a public reply for those of us who think we are being heard. And when the communication comes back mixed at best, I will still be at the point I was way back then before I heard of this board.
Sorry, you're not the only one who does this.
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Many on the board are working through mother issues right now. My issues are with trying to learn to trust in a post-N romantic relationship.
Hi CB,
I would love to hear your insights regarding learning to trust in a post-N romantic relationship.
For me, recovery from the effects of N-dom colors almost all aspects of my life as I navigate all types of relationships and environments: parental, familial, romantic, friends, work, etc. I feel that discussion of any one type of relationship or environment doesn't negate any other type.
In my post N awareness, am scared shipless at the thought of entering into a romantic relationship, so I would love it if you could share your discoveries.
Thanks.
love,
ann
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Mother relationships, romantic relationships, it is all good , all important,all worthwhile to discuss(IMO) Ami
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I'm sorry you think it's a gossipy back-land.
Thanks Bean. I do think it is like gossip. It is like having an invisible audience casting opinions on an exchange between two people and influencing only one of them.
I also live in a very rural area where everyone is related to everyone else and they have all lived here for hundreds of years and I am very tired of constantly having to gauge my words to make everyone happy or at least not challenged. (I mean like I think voicelessness was created here :lol: ) So, it is more about me and my impatience at trying to read between the lines and not about the value of private messages and how they are used on this board so much.... I've sent them myself....when I thought someone was being unfairly crucified....but when I thought about it, I got mad at myself for not posting it publically because I was afraid they would turn on me!! So it wasn't worth it.
I'm too old to be so insecure :lol:
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I'm sorry, but you cannot come in late and rewrite history. If you want to know what happened, listen closely. If you don't, what are you doing here on this thread? I'm wondering.
I cannot rewrite history. I am only commenting on history. But you do bring up a good point. When a post is made, pms fly back and forth and posts are deleted,(And in subsequent threads which were subsequently deleted.
), geez, I am only human. I can't begin to follow what the original point was at times.
Look, all I am saying is that I assumed the original intent of this board was to garner feedback from everyone and not create a clique of cohorts who support one's agenda which a fair amount of pms do. Ask me how I know. Ok, I assume you asked.
You, yourself once vilified me in public and then sent me a pm requesting my support in your position against another board member. I did, at that time, listen very closely. I responded in a thread called Please don't PM me. I'm not the brightest light on the tree, I get confused easily...and my solution is to not pm. Unless of course it is about a particularly attractive recipe for a chicken casserole.
Again, I think you should (and that is a collective "you") put it all out there for everyone. What do pms do for you?
To continue on. In answer to your question, I don't know what I am doing on this thread other than it is very hot here and I can't sleep. I'm worried about the price of oil and my neighbor who is in her eighties cannot afford to heat her house this coming winter. She won't consider moving ....her kids hate her ... and she is not pleasant but all my neighbors and I don't want to see her die in her house. She locks herself in refusing to answer any knocks on the door. She also thinks her kids love her. Now ....that is a real problem.
Yeah, you're right. I'll focus on my neighbor and let this pm business alone. Of course unless you're very interested and I would be entirely willing to restate my position. But it's just my position; it's not an attack. But maybe it sounds like an attack which I should remember when I am called on something via this board. If I get my back up immediately, I will have to count to ten and just absorb the comment and decide if I need to go into survival mode or a "reflective" mode...hmmmmmm I hope it's the latter......
Anyway, now that pms have been discussed ad nauseum......heating oil is going to be the coming if not current crisis. We can choose to drive or not but we have to maintain a certain level of warmth in our homes. More later.....
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You, yourself once vilified me in public and then sent me a pm requesting my support in your position against another board member. I did, at that time, listen very closely. I responded in a thread called Please don't PM me
OMG! That is unconscionable!
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lupine: Take good care of your neighbor, if you can. I also live in a small town, but I moved here from Manhattan, and there's not much difference, in some ways. Contrary to your own self-judgment you don't get easily confused, and I have many good chicken recipes. Keep in touch. If there's anything I can do to help with the issues that brought you here, let me know.
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shocked at the audacity of some couple's child.