Answer to Bean's questions

[Ami]

no problem Dr. G - I think lighter is trolling and changing, finding peace and Izzy have fanned the fire.  If you want me to come up with the specific examples of where this happend, I'll try to do so but it will take me some time.

I have also wondered about sun, poppy, lollie and observer.  They may not have been trolls but they did mysteriously appear and disappear and responded to lighter primarily.


bean

Bean,
  You are not saying Izzy is a troll?      Ami

[Certain Hope]

Dear Bean,

I want to let you know that I have read your posts to me here on this thread.

At this juncture, I feel unable to respond in a manner which would not further enflame the current issues.

Maybe at another time.

My last post was for the benefit of those whom you've named on the listing you've posted
and it proceeded directly from my strong sympathies for them, based on how I myself would feel to read that I was suspected of being a troll/sock puppet/any other label.
Especially, I have strong feelings for Poppyseed's sake, considering that I only recently extended a greeting to her...  and when I saw her name on your list, I felt a heavy dread that I might have inadvertently created yet another painful situation for her.

Those are my feelings, Bean, and not an attempt to answer your direct questions of me. I realize that. But this is all I have at the moment.

Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

hi Carolyn,

I'm sorry that the communication between us has shut-down again.  I understand that this is your choice and respect that. 

I do want to say that I'm sad that everytime we seem to get close to a break-through, into real understanding, I have noticed you back away.  I'm not sure if you might be afraid of me or just the topics I'm bringing up, but that is my fear.

bean

Bean?

If you would like to give me examples of occasions in which our communication has shut down in the past, I'd be glad to discuss that with you.
I don't recall any such times.

And I don't recall occasions on which you and I seemed to get close to a breakthrough.
In fact, I never sensed that we needed a breakthrough.

Please tell me what I've missed?

No, I am not afraid of you, Bean.
I'm not afraid of your topics, either... regardless of whether or not I share your view.

What I do see clearly is that you and I have had a completely different perspective of our aquaintance-ship and that surprises me alot!

Please do tell, as you're ready and if you want, of the circumstances which have given you these impressions.
Thanks.

Carolyn

[Ami]

You are cool ,Bean. Can I sign up for lessons?????              Ami

[Ami]

Being Cool, bean!          Ami

[Ami]

Dear CB
 Alice Miller talks about people's fears of authority b/c they could not stand up to their parents. Then, they become sheepish people, which most people are, as evidenced by Social Psychology experiments, like the Milgrim experiement.
 It takes a self actualized person to stand up to authority, in whatever form.
 I saw that in Bean and wanted to offer ,my respect b/c she is beyond me , in that.      Ami

[teartracks]

Hi Dr. Grossman,

But let me add a few additional points.  There is no perfect way to moderate a forum such as this.  Some people will like the way the board is moderated, some people will not, and others will go back and forth depending upon current issues.  There are people you will like on the board and people you won’t, people who will deeply offend you and who you wished would be booted off.  Furthermore, different members will have different ideas about who should be booted off.  The VESMB will never be a cozy place or a refuge, but I do hope it will be a place people can learn.  Especially about themselves.  That, to me, is the most important thing.  IMO, without the conflicts, even at their current levels, people would have much less opportunity to learn about themselves.  One other point: time is also an important factor, overlooked in the heat of the moment.  Another person’s perception that is impossible to hear in the present because of the need to defend the self, may suddenly make sense down the road.  This may take place one, two, or even three years later.  Obviously, one of the first tasks of a therapist is to learn to be patient!  I hope this helps.

Whew, what relief.  No need to keep  looking for the black box!  

tt

[mudpuppy]

Bean has tremendous courage to stand up to an "authority" figure, you, Dr G, who is our symbolic parent.

Can't say I ever considered the good Doc a parent of any sort, symbolic or otherwise.
Can't say I ever considered him an authority figure any more than the proprietor of any other establishment I might enter or leave at my choosing either.
Can't even say I had any idea that's how others perceived him.

Can say one thing however; at what point and why did the general discussion on the board come to be about the board itself and its internal dynamics and personalities and cease being about people's external experiences with Ns?

mud

[CB123]

Hi, Mud,

I think it became about the board when the board dynamics became the primary source of pain in many of the members' lives. 

I think.


CB

P.S.  Was hoping you would come around--it's always worth the wait...

[Gabben]

Bean has tremendous courage to stand up to an "authority" figure, you, Dr G, who is our symbolic parent.

Can say one thing however; at what point and why did the general discussion on the board come to be about the board itself and its internal dynamics and personalities and cease being about people's external experiences with Ns?

Perhaps because N(s) are here on the board and create some havoc....I'm speaking in general terms and not in accusation at anyone.

Just a thought.

Perhaps the discussion turned from our FOO pain and the pain we experienced by current N's in our life to the internal board itself when the board itself took on an N atmosphere, real or imagined?

[Ami]

Perhaps because N(s) are here on the board and create some havoc....I'm speaking in general terms and not in accusation at anyone.

Just a thought.

Perhaps the discussion turned from our FOO pain and the pain we experienced by current N's in our life to the internal board itself when the board itself took on an N atmosphere, real or imagined?




Dear Mud,
 I think Lise summed it up perfectly. Until there are no N's, N like people and N qualities in ourselves, there will be conflict. here, outside your door, at a cocktail party, a football game ,any group.      Ami

[mudpuppy]

  Thanks for the responses, guy.
  I think possibly an unfortunate tendency of some to ascribe to every slight, every ambiguous statement and every person whom they find less than agreeable the dreaded N is at the root of why the board is, as I put it on a different thread, "useless".
  Not every personality quirk or personal conflict has narcissisim at its root and not every person with whom we do not get along should be tagged with the term.
  It seems to me it is this (mis)perception and the knee jerk application of N to every unfortunate who pokes his/her head up over the weeds and says something we don't like which has created the current atmosphere, not actual Nism.
  When somebody we don't like is just a jerk all we can say is they're a jerk and once we've said it nobody wants to hear it twice because it's just a personal conflict.
  When somebody is an N however we're free to go on a crusade to dig them out root and branch as the pervasive evil that people have come here to escape and heal from.

Perhaps the discussion turned from our FOO pain and the pain we experienced by current N's in our life to the internal board itself when the board itself took on an N atmosphere, real or imagined?

A third possibility beyond the terms real or imagined might be "created". What I see is not so much an N atmosphere as an anti-N atmosphere, where the letter N or the subtle implication of the letter without its explicit use has become a kind of default mechanism by which to attack or defend.

mud

[Gabben]

  A third possibility beyond the terms real or imagined might be "created". What I see is not so much an N atmosphere as an anti-N atmosphere, where the letter N or the subtle implication of the letter without its explicit use has become a kind of default mechanism by which to attack or defend.

mud

Mud,

Disagree.

How are you to know that there are not real N's here?

What makes you and expert on the atomosphere here?

It seems to me that you pop your head in on the board, mainly when there is conflict, then you dissapear?

Do you read the board? Do you take in the dynamic? It can be pretty hard to make and assesment of the structure here if you are not here.

Who are you anyway?

Also, telling us that what we perceive is not what we percieve can be pretty mind-messing, to put it nicely. It makes me wonder...why would you tell us:

"When somebody we don't like is just a jerk all we can say is they're a jerk and once we've said it nobody wants to hear it twice because it's just a personal conflict.
  When somebody is an N however we're free to go on a crusade to dig them out root and branch as the pervasive evil that people have come here to escape and heal from."

Bottom line - I read your post and I felt like a toxic waste of shame was just dumped on me....

Mud sticks best to a clean spot, why is your name mud.....anyways?

[Hopalong]

Hi Lise,

Mud is good.

Opinionated
and
good.

love,
Hops

[Izzy_*now*]

Hi Mud

When somebody is an N however we're free to go on a crusade to dig them out root and branch as the pervasive evil that people have come here to escape and heal from."

I thought Gabben's post was quite heavy-handed, but it's not surprising.

Perhaps what is in the quote is part of why she ran, as if she had been singled out.

This is my last comment on her, re her anger.
Izzy