Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on October 18, 2008, 03:53:41 PM
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Hi all,
Woe$ are: the bottom line is that Mom's income is $1500 short per month to cover her nursing home care, and mine is $500 short to live on (including my paying the mortgage). My long-term guests are giving me something each month toward utilities, but I am still $500 short.
So: to take care of Mom, I'll be getting more from the house equity. Increasing that loan will be another payment. I'm getting the lawyer's advice Monday or Tuesday, but I'm a little frustrated about his comprehension. Anyway, he means well.
What my brother's attack has accomplished is ultimately that both his and my inheritance will now be gobbled up, because if he had not attacked me legally, we would have the house transferred to my name by now, and Mom on Medicaid. And his third would still be protected for him. I don't think he was smart enough to think through the ramifications, so instead, I'm blocked from accepting rent that would help me maintain the place, Mom can't get Medicaid because he blocked the house transfer (would have been allowed under Medicaid because I was her caregiver), lawyers are getting lots of our money and it's a mess.
Personally, I am exhausted. I slept until 2:30 today. I must get another job, so am about to start tramping the sidewalks for an evening/weekend retail thing. But I'm so tired from the fast-paced 40 hours I do already, plus worrying about all this and visiting Mom, that I am concerned what it'll do to my health.
The whole thing's a mess.
The happiness part is interesting: there's a very nice man, 4 years my junior, who's new to my church. We've been seeing each other about twice a week for a few months. He cooks for me, we talk and walk. He's very bright, was at one point a very successful software engineer. Lived a yuppie life until his marriage ended. I think he really likes me. I like him too. But I'm a little afraid of involvement. What I do like is that although there's attraction, he has respected my need to go very, very slowly. No pressure, and he is gentle.
Downsides: he drinks a lot. (I know, if one maintained an automatic checklist, one would toss him. But I find it hard. What's it to me if a gentle man drinks more wine than I find healthy? It certainly doesn't make him mean or anything.) He's very fit. And attractive. He has had relationships with younger women but says now that he's realizing the limits of connecting through a big generational difference. He seems interested in making a relationship.
Okay, y'all, please understand that I have never, ever, been attracted to conventional people. In tough times I have told myself, woman, what you need is a Republican dentist!! But line 'em up and I have always gone for the eccentric, the rebel, the different, the unusually sensitive, etc. So....here's the thing. This time a year ago he was homeless, and for the second time. He had grieving to do over the early loss of his father, he'd been passive about going along with others' ideas of happiness and he got a brain tumor that wiped him out financially. And, he was stubborn. Rather than ask a friend to take him in, as he was in a new state on his own, he just quietly decided to go sleep in the woods. So he did that.
His sister who goes to my church basically went and collected him after the local police contacted her. And he and she are very happily rebuilding their relationship.
The other day I was emailing him a few job openings I'd seen...and last time I was there it turned out he'd had an interview that morning! He's really quite brilliant and it's possible he'll go from almost nothing, to right back up the ladder. Anyway, he's meanwhile gotten accustomed to living very, very simply. And his spiritual learning from his experiences have made him someone I admire.
Particularly during this time when I'm very afraid of losing my own home and security. He's good company. And likes to be helpful to me. Having gone so many years feeling alone with all the worry, it's good to have a friend. Who acts like one.
I'm writing this now because I feel I'm nearing the tipping point of getting more emotionally involved, and that is scary.
Not because of who he is, but because I fear my own dependency, vulnerability to abandonment (not that he's threatened it, but he "likes his freedom".) He's mentioned he knows a couple who are devoted to each other but maintain their separate residences. I think when he said that he was trying to reassure me when I said something about liking to go very very slowly...not distancing himself. And he remarked, and who knows, I could even get married again, but I'm happy to let it unfold.
It's me who has a hard time letting things unfold. I have so often leapt from first gear to fifth and been terribly hurt when it didn't turn into commitment. So here's somebody actually offering to give me all the space and time I need, and I'm afraid I might clutch onto it.
At the same time, I think he's the kindest and gentlest "suitor" I've had in a long time, and I can visualize a shared life, I think.
What do you think? (Believe me, I know the homeless episode/s are freaky to hear about. But I've gotten to know him and it doesn't alarm me.)
love
Hops
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You know what? The homelessness and drinking too much are a little scary...but so's a Republican dentist. Only because I know one, as well as a pharmacist who's the next best thing. Two less emotionally available people would be hard to imagine. I say: you are getting something positive out of this relationship. NOT getting even more that's positive down the line need not eradicate or reduce the benefit of what you have now. You understand each other, you feel less alone with him. What's not to like? Nobody's perfect, but sometimes people are better for being together. You've both been through a lot and continue to face such challenges--why not be there for each other? He may not be The One. Maybe he is. Either way he sounds like a worthwhile friend.
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hi Hops,
I noticed a plaque on the Post office gift shop wall on Thurday and bought it for my daughter..
"If you see a woman looking for a husband, she's never had one"
He sounds like a gentle friend, but please take it slowly. But on the other side, like you, I was always attracted to the 'different' type. One was part Native Algonquin, a most handsome creature, and passed on his colouring to my D and she to 2 of her 3 children. The other had long, wavy gray hair, a most ugly creature., an N. There is a nice looking, well-spoken man in my building, totally bald, bald for real, but I'm not in the running, though I still look. I note many good looking Natives in the area.
When it comes to family I coud barf. Your Brother more than takes the cake. Does he realize what he has done?
Why is a Republican dentist different? Please let me in on what you and gjazz know!
Good Luck, Hopsy
Love
Izzy
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Hiya Hops,
Been a while.........so sorry to hear about your brother and all that mess. The financial stuff is scary, interestingly, I, who am afraid of almost everything, have never been afraid of financial ruin!!! I have some sort of incredible faith that I will always have enough - don't suppose that is really helpful but I guess what I am saying is that worrying about it can hurt you more than having less money. Your brother, it seems, is out to sabotage you getting what you need and deserve. I don't know how the medical system works in the US but what happens if you cannot pay your Mom's bills. In Europe if you cannot pay for private health care the state pays or does the fact that your Mom still owns the house prohibit that? I so wish it was easier for you.
I had to laugh out loud when I read the part about the republican dentist and also I can associate with being attracted to someone who is "different". I also have had that but seem to have kicked it, not that I am attracted to anyone at the moment. I think gjazz is talking sense. Can you be present to what is going on now and take the support and breathe through the anxiety when it comes. Over here people tend not to marry at the same rate as you guys second time round so that seems pretty normal for me. To be honest I would never contemplate marriage again and the only kind of relationship I would be interested in is a living apart one. I don't think i have what it takes, brings up all the yucky feelings around passivity etc. So how about going along, enjoying the closeness, having fun and NOT taking care of him and see where that leads.
Much love,
axa
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Just to add: I think in terms of romance you should take it slowly, but I always think that. My motto is it's time to get involved when you stop asking yourself if it's a good idea. I also think if you tend to be drawn to people you feel you can "save," or even just help, I'd take romance even more slowly. In terms of friendship, though, you seem to complement each other, and real friends are dang rare.
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I have nothing of value to add here but I cannot let the oportunity go by without offering my support for you. What I am struck by is that you are drawing men whom you do like to you. First one and then another. I truly believe that you are progressing towards the companionship you desire and deserve. I have no idea if this is the one who will provide your companionship but this is what I take from it - he has had some difficult times. I do not believe that past defines a person. I believe that love and caring can healing like nothing else - BUT it is also true that some people are so damaged/wounded that they cannot accept the love that is offered them and those people do go on hurting others. How can you know which this man is? Perhaps with time and experience as you go slowly you will learn.
I wish love and joy and comfort for you Hops. I wish for you someone who can receive from you the kindness and caring and wit you have given many of us here and I wish for you someone who can love you and support you and care for you in return. That is what I wish for you - for us all.
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Hopalong,
you sound wise as far as the financial end of things. You know what needs to be done and you plan to do it. Good for you! I'm so sorry you have that jack@#$ of a brother to deal with.
Your companion sounds charming and weathered. You have taken his story and learned alot already from him. That's a good thing.
Just take it moment to moment.
If you find yourself agonizing, there's good reason for it.
If you find yourself relaxed and feeling loved, there's good reason for it.
Dandylife
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"Trust in God, but tie your camel"
-- old Sufi saying.
As long as you maintain your boundaries, Hops, you have no need to agonize....
I believe that all the "usual" beliefs about relationships (white picket fence type stereotypes) are impediments to enjoying what experience, wisdom, and courage can make real from our relationships. Your new friend isn't his drinking... or his previous homelessness... and it sounds like you've set those things aside, even while wondering, worrying...
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Hops:
I'm so glad you posted an update.
I've missed you.
Lighter
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Hey Hops: My first instinct is to say to be careful about the drinking because if he is drinking early in the relationship when you are usually on your best behavior....beware......but the other thing is have him move in so you have extra money........isn't that talking out of both sides of my mouth.....but I am happy you are happy.....
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Hi all,
New friend is the least of my problems...aggghh.
I'm sinking. I paid $4K last month for Mom that I don't have, the paper is full of people trying to sell their cars and nobody's called me about mine, I haven't found a second job yet and the interest is mounting.
I do feel overwhelmed. Not sure what to do.
But I'll get a grip.
Money is terrifying when you don't have it.
love
Hops
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Hops,
So sorry to hear. I think you have to put yourself first. Maybe you need to move your mother to a less expensive place or ask the nursing home to lower the price.
How about this: maybe your 2nd job is working at the nursing home in exchange for reducing your mother's fee?
Is your brother contributing to your mother's fee? If not, why not?
Best to you,
ann
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Hi Ann,
I wouldn't give him the opportunity to have any involvement because he will use any control given him at all, even financial, as a further opportunity to try to enter the house, take over her account, etc. Until the hearing is over, where he is trying to be her conservator (take over, from Chicago, while I'm right here...) -- he wants to force the sale of the house (disastrous for me), etc.
It's too complicated. Or I'm too wiped out to make sense. But he is not a source of help.
The nursing home staff have been fairly well poisoned by my brother. He really did a job of it.
When I saw Mom tonight the first thing out of her mouth was: "Ray Lynn says I don't see you!" THAT is the SW to whom my evil uncle addressed his "secret" letter to my mother...in which he told her to let my brother have his way.
And...my brother "groomed" this SW to believe I'm a terrible person.
I had never met her before last week, nor had she called me. I'm feeling isolated and frustrated about that. But I don't want to put Mom through a move. She likes the staff, they treat her well, it feels familiar to her now, she has a good roommate, and she's fond of the other residents.
She'll be 98 next month.
I am just worried about how to do all this. It feels like too much. I need a break.
But, this is the card I'm dealt just now and I will find out how to deal.
love
Hops
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Oh jeez Hops - this is all too much for you to have to handle. I am so very sorry. I do pray that something gives for you soon. It is so often the legacy of N parents that the offspring are divided and one or another works to destroy the other. I have seen it in every single N family. As though the price of being born into Nism only gets worse with time. That is such a cruel fate. It is impossible to comprehend the pain and horror and helplessness of it all for all of us.
My heart is with you and my prayers that something miraculous happens to staunch the bleeding and leave your house standing in tack. That will be justice - your house standing in tack - your at last. That is the ending I choose.
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Hops,
I'm going to preface this by apologizing for my bluntness. I think sometimes I post too bluntly & people get turned off & dismiss the substance of my message. So even if you're turned off by my bluntness, I hope you'll consider the substance of my message.
I think that we, as daughters of NMs, have been raised to not put ourselves first. We willingly & automatically put ourselves second or third and put the needs of others ahead of our own. It's OK to do with our children, but not always OK to do with adults.
I suggested moving your mother to a less expensive place and you replied that she's happy there & she's almost 98. I know you love her & if you had the $, it would be fine. BUT........(here comes the bluntness), you don't have the money & you just paid $4K which you don't have, the economy is in the toilet, haven't yet found a car buyer nor a 2nd job.
More bluntness coming..........Let's not forget a major reason why you find yourself in this position: You're mother's secret will. She kinda double crossed you, colluded with your brother, who also sullied you to the nursing home people & your uncle and is suing you.
Hops, I can only imagine the pain you feel when you really look at what your NM & bro have done to you. It hurts. It hurts really bad and I am so sorry that this happened. But, let's not forget that we are daughters of dysfunctional foos. So, we have to deal with the reality of how our dysfunctional foo members have effected us. Very often, our dysfunctional foo members really screw us up (& screw us over) in a deeply profound way.
IMO, a big part of your financial problems are due to your brother's lawsuit, which, in turn, is due to your mother's secret will. And yet, you are willing to sacrifice your financial well being by going into debt to keep your mother in this nursing home because she's happy there. But, what about you??? You are really happy in the house, but your mother didn't make it her business to see that you would get the house & instead, went behind your back with the secret will.
One of the biggest lessons I've learned in this NM/ N dysfunctional foo experience is to put my oxygen mask on myself first BEFORE I can help anyone else. By keeping your mother in a nursing home that you cannot afford (& you can't ask brother to contribute due to the lawsuit, which is due to the secret will), you are not putting your oxygen mask on yourself first.
You, like me, are your sole means of financial support. Am I correct in thinking that if, GD forbid, your financial status goes south, there's no one to bail you out?
So, as you look at your financial picture, what ever you do, please put your own personal financial well being FIRST. I know I sound harsh & cruel, but I'm being real.
How about discussing the nursing home short fall money with your lawyer? Maybe he has some suggestions. I just don't think you should go into further debt to keep your mother there if going into such debt will cause you financial instability.
Hops, again, I apologize for sounding blunt, harsh & cruel.
with love,
ann
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Hops,
I agree with Ann.
Your family has put you in an impossible situation, and you are trying to make it work. If you have had your hands tied from evey possible direction (your brother has poisoned the nursing home against you, your mother has crafted a secret will, other family members are brazenly badmouthing you to your mom), you are not to blame if you can't provide optimal care for your mom.
Thre is no question that you have done an incredible job of caring for your mother (98 years old is an unusual life span for someone with her health--I doubt she could have achieved it without your devotion.) You are not to blame for what has transpired since then--she has sabotaged her own care, and you are trying to pick up the pieces with your own effort.
Sometimes a person's greatest strength becomes their greatest weakness. You are the most compassionate person I believe I have ever met...but I think you are losing perspective on what is truly your responsibility--and also what is your greatest reward. More important than the perfect nursing home or the ownership of your childhood home is the day to day peace that you need to be whole. All any of us has is this day: you have put so much peace on hold, in the hopes that there will come a day of peace for you when this is all behind you.
I would bet money that if you were suddenly able to be transported into a simpler lfe--no conflict, no worries about the house, living simply and within the means that one job can afford--that you would be amazed at how much pressure you are living under now.
You will find your way, Hops. But I sooooo wish you could have the years ahead filled with as much peace as you can harvest after your long years caring for your mom.
Much, much love,
CB
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OH HOPS.... I'm sorry to hear this news.
Have you communicated with the patient advocate (if one exists) at the nursing home? Medicare? Social Security? To explain that you are now in financial distress? I have heard, that it's not always the case anymore that a home needs to be sacrificed before qualifying for aid. I think there is help out there, if you're ready to start looking and asking. However, I don't know how things are further complicated by your brother, etc in getting assistance. The advice to start by asking your lawyer, is probably the best.
Worst case scenario: let's say there just isn't any help due bureaucratic roadblocks. You're between a rock and a hard place and will necessarily have to make a decision - some decision - about what to do. Between now and the time you're totally forced to make a decision, gather as much info (and help) as you can find. I don't think you have the luxury of a lot of time, from your description. I'm far from an expert on this topic... but it looks like you are being squeezed into an either/or choice:
capitulate to your brother and sell the house
move your mother to a less expensive nursing home
That's all the options I can see - but I know from hard-knocks & hindsight that there is at least ONE other option; one other possibility. Sometimes even more than one... consider everything, no matter how "far-fetched"... even lottery tickets. I'll send you one for luck! Is home care less expensive? Or is that no longer possible?
I guess there will be complaints from your mom, if you move her. And the explanation necessarily includes dealing with the legal struggle that she created for you. I seriously doubt that there is any way she could correct that now - without additional challenges from your brother. Even if she were motivated.
Maybe Ann and CB have a point. Maybe it's time for you to run away from this mess; GIVE UP. Just to free yourself from the struggle you didn't deserve. It might be a greater gift than even defeating your brother and gaining the house. What are the possibilities that open up in that scenario?
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I'm in there with you Hops on finding a way to keep your house. I see this as worth fighting to the death for. I know I would if I were in your place.
Here is the only thing that I can see though I feel foolish for even risking frustrating you by suggesting it but is it possible that the minister/clergyperson can pay other bills for you up to an amount that would be rent appropriate. Could they help pay some of your mother's care bills? I suspect you have already figured this every which way to Sunday but just in case you hadn't I put it out there.
I do wish - in the "caught in the insanity" way that someone could reach your brother and show him how calling off the dog's would help each and everyone of you in the long run - saving his share of the estate and switching the house to your name so the medicare would kick in and on and on. That is the stuff I get hung up on - what SHOULD be rather than what is.
My heart is with you and I am holding you in my mind's eye as I imagine a Gordian knot unraveling to leave a place of peace. Love to you in these trying times.
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Hi Hops
Love to you
I agree with Ann, who was agreed with also by CB. They have said it all and I'm sorry to see that you are in such a mess.
When I learned/realized/could see that my siblings and deceased parents were not the perfect people My mind had been telling me and I was the 'bad' one I was finally free. I was the scapegoat burdened with the dysfunction of 6 other people and sent off "in the wilds alone".
When I really saw that they were less than perfect, I was freed. Oh such a good feeling! But it is mind-boggaling to see what family members will do to one another.
Oh How I wish you could free yourself of the burdens you carry.
Love
Izzy
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Hi Everyone,
I'm happy to see my bluntness didn't turn everyone off, but we've yet to hear from Hops.
CB's & Izzy's post made me think of something which my T said to me recently: As far as my 'function' in my foo, I was the one who didn't need help (& therefore didn't get help) but, I was expected to give help to members of my foo. To me, this sounds like the position that Hops is in: Your mother didn't give you the help you need (ie: ensuring you would get the house) but, you are expected to help your mother by paying for her care with money that you don't have. This is an impossible situation. And, Izzy's painful, yet liberating revelation of looking at her siblings today and seeing them as they really are. I suppose the truth is reveled thru these real life situations, which can prove to be emotionally devastating. But, I think it is better for us to face the truth instead of languishing in the fiction of how we wish things could be.
Hops, I know you love your house, so I suppose the underlying theme here, like GS said, is to fight like hell to keep it. But, (bluntness coming........), I fear you may not be able to keep the house if you continue paying money, which you don't have, for the nursing home.
Phoenix raises a good point re: find out if the house must be sacrificed in order to get aid for your mother's nursing home. But, just to clarify: When Phoenix said "Give Up", I think she meant give up trying to keep your mother in a facility you can't afford, not give up your quest to keep the house.
w/ love,
ann
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I love bluntness! Thank you, all of you.
You are writing on the wall for me to read and I really am grateful.
I can't tell you how much it helps to have loving but objective friends here who look at things as they are.
Here's the thing. There IS no cheaper place. She's already in the most modestly priced one I'd feel safe having her in. One thing did occur to me, I wondered if I could ask my minister's wife if she'd like to care for my mother here at home (she is a retired hospice nurse) with my help in the evenings. And then, they could live here rent-free for the entire two years.
I don't really think she would want to do this. She's retired and has a bad knee. But it might be an option. And then the money situation would be resolved. To everyone's benefit. But I think I'll make the offer: she can get the knee done first and I'll help her recuperate, then we can bring Mom home and she can be in charge, with me taking over just on the nights she and her hubby go out.
I think it's one good idea. And there may be more.
I feel optimistic again. May have an interview for a simple second job...just registering patients in the evening at a facility that runs around the clock. I could do that with no problem.
So all will be well.
I just had dinner with new pal. We went to the grocery store to get the ingredients for make-it-yourself laundry detergent, which I'm very psyched about. Simple things like that make me happy. As does he
Life is weird.
You all are loving wonderful people, and generous.
thank you, dears...
xxxooo
Hops
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Wow, Hops, that would be great. Maybe she'll be up for it. With everything that's going on in the economy right now, a blended household might be a welcome thing all around. And great to hear you sounding upbeat. Way to go.
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I'm turning frugality into a game, of sorts.
I actually enjoy discoveries like this because it feels like beating the consumerist propaganda. The money saved is big!
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Your-Own-Laundry-Soap
A jar of coconut oil has done good things for my skin...Dr. Bronner's is my only soap/shave gel...I just got new reading glasses from the Dollar Store...I clean with white vinegar and baking soda, not those expensive chemicals...hmmm, what else...I'm cooking quinoa all the time.
AMAZING breakfast I had the other day:
bowl of cooked quinoa mixed with:
dried cranberries
spoonful of apple butter
pine nuts
OH that was good. Fueled me better than any packaged cereal I've eaten.
Small pleasures and these discoveries cheer me BIG.
love
Hops
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Awesome. I like to think of myself as frugal. My friends say, "you are not frugal. You are F****** CHEAP." I am. It's true. I'll try the coconut oil...I use olive oil because it's so plentiful around here. I also use cucumber (I grow them) and melon (grow them too) on my face for masks and whatnot (I freeze individual batches in ziplock bags). I use vinegar against weeds and for pickling. Made my last batch of tomato sauce today, it lasts me all winter (grow those too). BUT. I have the WORST effing eating habits. I love crap. Love it. Butter, cheese, pizza, burgers, bread. I mean, I eat properly sometimes. But if there wasn't that little guilt voice in my head I'd be all over the bacon, all the time. So I admire your resolve.
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May I add one thing in relation to the happiness part of this thread? I got to laughing after posting that last message, because for the first time I really thought about my move from NYC to CA ten years ago. One of my reasons was fear of another winter. I'd come down with pneumonia the previous three, and had a lot of scarring on my lungs. I'm 5'8" and wore a size 4-6, sometimes an 8. I had to go right to the doctor and he said: "you must gain some weight." He worried about anorexia and bulimia and whatnot but all I had was depression, I'm one of those who will NOT eat if I'm depressed. So I said, "OK, and went to lunch over in Napa." Six months later, he said, "doing great!" A year later he said, "OK, that's fine, you can stop." A year after that he said, "um, really, you should stop." He's this skinny thing, big on cardio and all manner of healthy living. Well I am sorry, but I'd found FOOD. This place is foodie mecca. The year after that he sighed, put the chart down and said, "you really could lose a few pounds."
Ha! No way Jose.
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Hops,
Sounds like a great plan with the minister's wife. Hope you let us know what she says.
xoxo,
ann
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I will, definitely...here is where I tell ALL.
Gjass, hah, c'mon now, you want to be healthy, eh? Foodie-ism's contagious, it can be veggie-glam food if you like.
What cured me of bacon was BABE. Only movie I've ever owned.
I'm in love with animals anyway, so going (mostly) vegetarian wasn't hard. My daughter led the way.
Once I stopped eating meat for a few months, the taste began to feel unnatural anyhow.
I register it's "yummy" but I now have the animal's life & death so imprinted that it's no fun anymore.
Not worth the sadness.
The few times lately I've slipped and had a poultry sandwich I sit at my desk apologizing to the turkey.
If you WANT to go meatless, try reading up just a little on factory farming. That'll do it.
That's pretty funny about the evolution in your doctor's advice.
You sound like somebody with hunger for life.
yay,
Hops
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I agree with you on factory farming. And I've been meatless in the past. Not now, but I hear you. Healthy? I don't always care as much as I should. I do like to exercise.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a good solution to your situation soon. Do let us know.
Hunger for life--sometimes. Sometimes can barely get out of bed. That's the way it goes!
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It is all a part of life isn't it? Just when you think things are going well, BAAM someone sticks it to you. And just when you weigh the perfect weight BAAM your hormones catch up to you and you gain weight. Just when your life is going well, some stupid thing happens. But what I am figuring out is how I handle those setbacks determine how my life plays out. Optimism is such a great thing. If you can do something to pull yourself out it is huge!!!
Hops, that job sounds great. The $500 you need to make ends meet. The boyfriend.............fun...................
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A jar of coconut oil has done good things for my skin...Dr. Bronner's is my only soap/shave gel...I just got new reading glasses from the Dollar Store...I clean with white vinegar and baking soda, not those expensive chemicals...hmmm, what else...I'm cooking quinoa all the time.
AMAZING breakfast I had the other day:
bowl of cooked quinoa mixed with:
dried cranberries
spoonful of apple butter
pine nuts
OMG Hops - I use the coconut oil on my skin too. It has begun to fade a couple of age spots. My son loves the fragrance!
I love quinoa - never tried it for breakfast though - sounds GREAT!!!
gjazz - coconut oil has more properties than simply moisturizing - it has anti fungal and other healing properties. Google it and see.
Have cleaned with white vinegar and soda for several years - love it.
Can't wait to try making detergent - Keep posting these tips I love them!!!!!
You are becoming my model for overcoming.
I think bringing your mother home is the perfect solution. I believe it will work because it makes sense - it is so perfect. I choose to believe it will work. God bless you Hops. You are inspiring me to feel great about life.
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OK, today I've eaten trail gorp (homemade, with oats and almonds) and put coconut oil on my face. Awaiting transformation. Oh I made a blueberry pie too, alas.
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HA!
Boy could I enjoy some blueberry pie...
Had a nice evening with gennleman friend...lots of talking, walking, a little cuddling. No pressure.
I have a conundrum. (You don't wanna read this, Mud, but I need to talk about it. I will be mindful of mores and such and am not trying to incite vulgarity, honest. I just don't have anybody I really know how to talk about this stuff with in my life.)
I was raised in extremely repressive atmosphere, as to sex. VERY repressive. Full of fear and guilt and a dark sense that it wasn't joyful but dire. (About 15 years ago, I learned why...what had gone on in my mother's childhood from her father -- if not to her --I'll never know the truth about that -- definitely to her younger sister. That would lead one to emit dire signals about sex, I'm sure. It was simply never addressed at all. )
So I was a late bloomer and in some ways still am. In my young adulthood I was a bold one. Round-heeled, to put it bluntly. As I got older I began to miss the sense of exaggerated sacredness. I don't really want THAT, either -- that's just another kind of pressure. But I'm still ambivalent and confused about what I really want. How much exploration and woo-hooness.
With Gennleman Friend, who had no father ... but is a Gentle Man, and an honest one ... I find myself a little startled by how freely and naturally he talks about sex. And, he mentions women a lot. He is not a philanderer. I believe he is honest about that as well, and have no sense that he's painting false pictures. He's been very emphatic that he has no interest in being any other way than involved and intimate with just one woman. He's known a few, so he has his stories.
But he's very fit, very attractive, and in that area of his life, very confident in a way I am not. That's touching on some insecurities I have about intimacy. I'm afraid of disappointing, being dull. Boring him.
It'll be some looooooooong time before I know, because I am moving like an old tortoise. The last few years of romantic disappointments have taught me one thing with huge clarity. Although I was very capable of it when I was young, for me now, casual sex is an oxymoron. Or I am a moron when I indulge. Every single time, I imprint like a baby duck and am ready to go quacking after That Man indefinitely. And it hurts too much when it's not reciprocated. So I'm just not handing myself over like that any more. Nice thing about GF is that he isn't losing interest in me once I've explained that about myself. We're certainly attracted to each other...but while he refers to us as "good friends" then that's all I'll be.
Going backwards, I must be. Back to the lesson of girlhood...don't let it happen unless he loves you and offers security. Of course, I've selected an unemployed formerly homeless probably-alcoholic yardman...details...details...
Back to the conundrum. Kind nice truly a gentleman Gennnulman Friend, who attends my church and knocks himself silly being helpful and nurturing...kind of shares enough stories about himself that I learn that because he likes women so much (and I mean he genuinely likes women -- raised with two, and no males -- he seems to feel most at home with females, generally a lovely thing...and I'm quite touched and pleased by his intentional building of his relationship with his sister) .... AND because he's a very kinesthetic kind of person, as well as visually like any other guy (he responds to beauty, loves the female body, etc etc)...
Oh hell, I'll spit it out.
Turns out he's spent plenty of time (though not in recent years) in his past in nudie bars. Told me all sorts of tales about how he made genuine friends among the women, didn't exploit or anything. In fact he's always telling me stories of his past encounters with women ... and he usually comes off as the more vulnerable. I don't think he's making this up at all. He really is unusally sensitive, and perhaps lonely. And it sounds as though he's experienced his share of rejection (I can relate to that).
Anyhow, my heart sank when he told me that. I don't want to judge him. But I LOATHE every single aspect of the flesh peddling industry. I see a continuum and am not sage about it at all. He is all blase and told me truthfully that he met quite a few women who seemed to truly enjoy what they did, and earned a lot of money, etc.
I countered with -- the continuum -- how I perceive it as completely messed up and sad and tragic EVEN IF there are "sex positive" confident women who do it with pleasure, without shame, and enjoy their sexual power as a positive.
Sigh. My problem is, I understand what he's saying. He's an intelligent and sensitive man. I trust him and I like him.
But I'm flat-out buffaloed by this past pasttime of his. He's not apologetic about it. He concedes my argument that it's a continuum and porn and trafficking etc. are related, and even sees my point that most women, even in "sex positive" Western states, who participate...may come from backgrounds of some sort of abuse, or even if not that, from some sort of ECONOMIC desperation (hellloooooo, equality is still not there, economically, though it's much much better).
So how do I reconcile all this? He really is a lovely gentle man who has been treating me VERY well and has become a companion and great comforter.
But I have for years simply loathed and grieved and sorrowed (and raged) over the industry of women's bodies.
Oh damn.
Anyway, I know this is a big loaded subject, but I sincerely would be very very interested in answers from any and all of you -- ALL thoughts, perspectives, wisdom, things you've learned or changed or embraced or rejected in the evolution of your own thinking about these things.
Hell, I halfway think it's because he's a laid-back Westerner and I was raised an uptight Southern girl. Could it be that simple? Mutliple trips to Europe notwithstanding, I literally know nothing about how a handsome athletic young boy with no father, who really really likes women and is lonely, might find himself drawn to that sort of gathering. It may in part be his habit of drinking in bars, too. The way he talks about it... it was part thrill-seeeking when he was young, but became a place to find friends, conversation, bonding. He talks far more about people's life stories and conversations he had with them than he does anything else.
I am just seeing that he's had a whole life that's in a way on the "disprespectable" side of the street. He's embraced people exactly as who they are. He's not judgmental, nor snobbish, nor pretentious. He has an openness and curiosity that I really appreciate. I think he's actually sought out the "underclass" in the same way he chose to climb mountains that not very many others have climbed. He's in the 2nd tier of climbers worldwide. He's literally climbed mountains that are so steep and dangerous and high that people have died attempting the ascents. He saw that more than once.
I respond to the adventurer in him. THAT'S THE TRUTH! (Hmm, this is helpful.) I too am an adventurer. Where I am bold is not physical. (I"m a wuss and out of shape...though I once worked as a carpenter's apprentice when few women were...helped build a barn, doing the roof, all that). But I traveled 13 countries before I was 15 (three months each time) and it changed me. It implanted an openness and curiosity about other ways of living and being, and it challenged so many of the social assumptions I was raised among.
My poor parents had no idea all that would go off in my brain like little bombs during the 60s and afterward, of course.
Wow. I would love to know how anybody else responds to this winding post. It has helped me to write it, because I think I've written my way to understanding how I can still like him.
I am intensely turned off by the industry that peddles women, EVEN IF some of the participating women are glad or "empowered" to be doing it. I don't care, I still see it as a terribly sad thing reminiscent of the auction block.
But maybe he has never seen it that way, or asked the same questions, or battled through that question in the same way I have. And maybe he's not evil because his own spirit of rebellion and adventure used to lead him there.
Maybe I'm also in danger of rationalizing acceptance of something I deeply dislike, because I've been so lonely and he's paid me so much attention.
Oy. I really don't know. My mind's open. But I'm still guarding my heart.
Thanks for reading all this free association...feel free to freely associate back!
xo
Hops
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Hops,
I don't like that he told you about the strip clubs. Lots of guys go to them, but, they don't elaborate the details. So, this would turn me off. If he wants to seduce you, why can't he just use romance, why resort to strip club tails?
I think this is it: Maybe I'm also in danger of rationalizing acceptance of something I deeply dislike, because I've been so lonely and he's paid me so much attention.
If you decide to become intimate with him, please don't give your heart away.
That's my take.
xoxo,
ann
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Ah jeez Hops... is it that you're looking for a reason to deny yourself the GF? 'Coz you don't seem to me, to be the kind of person who would judge a person simply on their past activities and likes/dislikes... even when you do hold strong opinions and have made clear choices for yourself. Would it upset you if he still liked to "adventure" out to a strip joint once in a while? Is it a trust issue, deep down?
I mean - my hubby loves stacks of papers & magazines piled all around the house - which I am almost obsessively opposed to. He doesn't like broccoli - and it's my favorite vegetable. But those two qualities don't invalidate all the other good things he is, to and for me. I've told him, about his almost compulsive need to shop & collect, that it could be a whole lot worse... hey! He could be like N-hubby #2... The stacks of paper & mags are still an issue that we work through every recycling day... and we both have strong feelings about it... but it doesn't get in the way of the rest of our relationship.
Same with sex. He has a healthy appetite, in that area... while I've been conflicted about the topic all my life - lots of extremes in behavior, too. And then, when I got back my memory of what happened... well, that was just one activity I had a LOT of issues with... as if it had just happened. We are still working this out, but mostly because I want to deny myself - my own needs, my own opportunity for intimacy and pleasure. It's not that I want to deny him... so I'm working on consciously relaxing myself - the anxiety - and releasing the outcome of whether we "do it" or not. This is one area, where it's better for me to simply trust him - and not worry at all about "what I want". Give up control and let him lead.
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Hops:
I think being nonjudgmental is important. However, I think respecting your views (which, after all, you've clearly spent time thinking about and reaching) is very important as well. It's possible that some women in the sex trade enjoy their work, I suppose, though it's also true that everyone I know, when asked about their jobs, rationalizes and defends the bad stuff. And in the sex trade, the bad stuff is very very bad. It doesn't seem likely you are going to end the friendship over this, correct? Only that you are wondering if it kills any potential romantic relationship down the way? How about filing it for now with the drinking and the spotty employment history, and see if these things naturally lead you to keep the friendship at that level? Are you rationalizing, or seeking to see things from someone else's point of view, which is a sign of strength? So, you are willing to try to be open minded about his take on the subject; how does he respond to yours? If he has had a number of at-risk sex partners in the past, he would of course get a clean bill of health before engaging in any activity with you, correct? So many questions. That said, how might a lonely, fatherless kid who likes to drink end up in strip clubs? C'mon. It'd take about thirty seconds.
I don't know, Hops. The one thing I can say is I think you are very wise to take this VERY slowly.
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Hey Hops,
Please forgive me but I am going to be straight and forward with you.
My concern is do you think he has an addictive personality...sex, drinking, nudity, and you say he works very hard at church now...
Do you know what I mean Hops?
I had a friend who was a recovering alcoholic. After a big function he would go to the bar with the rest of the people. I wondered how he could do this and asked him one day. He said it was not so much the drinking that he had to be carefull of it was the whole scene. He loved every aspect about the social functioning in the bars. He loved the smell, the people, the music, everything which if he stayed to long he would drink. He only stayed about 1/2 and had to go home. He made no apologies for it either. He loved it but it was destruction for him.
Even his work became addictive but I guess better then the bar scene. His family had to deal with this. Very difficult for them.
More then the Sex or Nudity Bars Hops and I know you despise them think about and look at him with trying to have an open mind to his thoughts/feelings ...does this man have to go to far and all the way and too much of things...addictive ....
Hoppy what I got from your writings is that everything this man does is in Extremes....
Forgive me if I am wrong...Ya know I love ya Hops.. Carefull Hops...slow
Love
Deb
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Dear CB, thank you (again) for wise, insightful windows. I'll take on the questions, they help:
Did the gardener share these kinds of convictions?
Nope. Darn gardener fantasized so much about a black bustier I got one. And he herniated a disk. HAW!
I didn't like that, either. I really must be a prude. I hate any suggestion whatsoever that I have to change my body or apparel to please a male. It's my hangover from the first heartbreak of recognizing my 2nd-class citizenship. In my early 20s (well, when I was first told I couldn't attend the state U. because of my genitals! Sorry, but that's how I think of it. Not, "you've got the wrong gender." But "you've got the wrong genitals, so you're not welcome here." Made my blood boil then and now. But I do like men very much. And I know women who get a happy gleam and talk about pleasing a man and obviously have no such insecurity or feeling of threat. Hah. Bet my horrible older brother has something to do with this...Ughgh.
What made him a bad bet? Was it his lack of commitment to you (no overnights, no accountability)?
Yes. But mainly it was that one day he asked me "Am I your boyfriend" in the same tone of voice a person would say, "Do I have cancer?" and when I happily said, "Do you want to be?" he fled. Instantly. Intimate relationship ended on the spot. Though we've staggered back into friendship, he amputated the lovemaking without pause. Back then (few months ago, amazing) it really hurt. I grieved so, for the lack of his affection. It may not even have BEEN affection, he's just a guy who naturally slings his arms around a woman and was happy doing so. It probably had very little to do with my specialness. Sigh.
Does this guy seem more stable in the areas that gardener was not?
Yes. He's still friends with and loyal to and obviously cares for exes. Doesn't seem to readily discard people from his life.
Does that seem like a good trade-off for the other negatives?
That's the $64K question. Maybe. But the lack of insight into how a woman might perceive a man who has received lap dances bothers me. For me, it's a big lack of empathy. He's (new guy) kind as in gentle, but maybe he's not really empathic. Fact-finding better include that, or I've done it again. The good part is, no sex. Ain't done it. Right now, not feeling as though I will.
If so, what does that say about what you are looking for, what you are willing to give up to get what you are looking for?
COMPANIONSHIP. And a guy who'll dig in the yard, show some interest in helping me carry the load of life. Last night, we sat outside and I said I'm going to sweep the leaves, and he just grabbed the broom and said, let me do that. I have had SO LITTLE HELP. Literally, help. Being helped is huge to me.
Does devotion to you measure higher on your list that some of these other things? (sometimes the only way we know that we have a list, and what is on it, is by being in the very situation that you are in).
I'm not sure what devotion is...but attention, willingness/eagerness to share time. Cooking a meal for me. Inviting me to share Thanksgiving. Previous Nboyfriends nearly herniated themselves to avoid sharing any holidays, birthdays, etc. This fellow just opened up his life and invited me in. He was lonely too. That can be a perfectly good reason to be drawn to someone, though I know it should never be the only one.
Another thing to think about: are you living an adventure vicariously through this guy?
No question I'm excited by his unconventional life and adventurous past. I don't know many people who have had a passion for adventure. I have had my own, not athletic...but I've done some bold things. Living alone on the Eastern Shore, working as a carpenter, working as a roving poet, etc etc. And a few strolls on the wild side myself. Looking back, though, I don't crave anything wild any more. I now crave more the quieter adventure of developing spirituality, sustainable living, community, green living, etc. (He just got his climbing gear shipped. Glad for him.)
This is what I identify with--I have done this many times in my life. Take what you know about him and apply it to your decisions about your life: what made him able to have the adventures that he has had.
No children, no strong anchor to FOO. Oy boy.
Willing to risk?
No obligations.
No encumbrances? S
Oh yeah! You betcha. After single parenting, 2 divorces and a decade as NMom's Cinderella...you're spot on. I envy his serene freedom from attachment or entrapment. I'm still chewing my paw out of the trap, as long as my brother looms.
See if you can figure out what you can incorporate in your own life without necessarily having to have him to do it.
Thanks, CB. I see that I am still in the trap, but slowly time is passing to a point where I may yet be free. Or freer. Having a child binds me permanently to a person and to a degree a place. But that part is good by me. I'd like to be intentionally bound, voluntarily bound, to a kindred seeker, a lover, too. I would like to marry again out of joy, not fear. That's what I'm waiting for.
Thank you so much. You are as clairvoyant as always, and me as grateful.
love to you,
Hops
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Hi Ann.
You're spot on. I can't become intimate without offering my heart along with my body any more. Maybe I can, but the price is too steep. So I'm just not going to do that to myself again.
Heart firmly in chest,
hugs
Hops
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Ask the questions, FEEL the answers. Sounds like you've done it, Hops, and this guy makes a perfectly decent...friend. You should not give your body without giving your heart. And while that lack of prior encumbrances in his life might make a relationship of any level easier, it might also signal an inability to connect on a deep level, which clearly means a lot to you. Put yourself first. Accept his help and his kindness and reciprocate, but don't compromise your dreams.
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Thanks, Gjazz, for these:
It doesn't seem likely you are going to end the friendship over this, correct?
Yup. I mean nope. I wouldn't ... but what I experienced w/gardener (and others) is that once romance is "in the air" and you backpedal to "just friends" that often becomes a pretty dull, cramped relationship. Favor-swapping and some support, but not much emotional connection...
Only that you are wondering if it kills any potential romantic relationship down the way?
Yup, I am. I don't know how a man who sees women in full, including the cultural realities of sexism (and I would want a partner with that much empathy) ... could happily indulge in receiving lap dances and clinging to the young dancers as his friends. He says he remembers times that were just "fun, not exploitative". I believe that is his honest sense of it. But he also developed a full relationship with one of them, she sounded terribly troubled, he even said she was bipolar. He clearly cared about her. I remember also that when we first got together he told me he was extremely codependent...so I get that. It's all part of his dynamic, I know.
I am judgmental in a way. But it's partly a .. um ... discontinuity in the brain, for me. Like, maybe I'm the feminist equivalent of a vegan. Some folks are fine with eating dairy and eggs (I am one, and only recently began seeking out pasture-fed dairy -- even though I'm in denial about their eventual slaughter...and free-range eggs --ditto). Some feel the empathy and grief over the way factory farming goes that they won't eat honey (chemicals are sprayed on hives) or even rennet (a dye used in some cheeses, I think it comes from beetles' shells? or something like that). They take a prinicpled stand and wear vinyl shoes.
I'm too lazy. I just feel the thing about young women putting themselves in these environments so acutely. Partly, I'm envious of their sexual bravado. I wish I were that free. Maybe I wouldn't have any "performance doubts" if I had that kind of confidence. I feel sexy at times. But I have trouble going as bold and intensely carnal as many women do. So maybe I'm jealous. I dunno. Those convictions, though ... if you'd read here a few years back, you'd've heard me raving about the genital mutilation of girls in some cultures. That KILLS me. So...I extrapolate to dirty bars. I truly don't know how they're not connected. It's all objectification, isn't it? I mean, so what if he's all Mr. Sensitive Friend to the dancers after hours? He still sits there and gets off on their young selves dancing naked in front of a crowd, didn't he? How do I feel about that? NOT GOOD.
He has no children.
I have a daughter.
But why should that be what it takes? I don't have a son, but I have no trouble feeling pain and fury when I think of what's done to young boys...seeing the anguish and havoc the objectification of THEIR selves causes...
Lordy.
gasp.
Hops
Sighh.
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Amber,
Your courage in loving and letting yourself be intimate at ALL is marvellous and moving and wonderful.
I salute you.
Unimaginable bravery, dear.
love
Hops
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Hi Deb--
More then the Sex or Nudity Bars Hops and I know you despise them think about and look at him with trying to have an open mind to his thoughts/feelings ...does this man have to go to far and all the way and too much of things...addictive ....
Hoppy what I got from your writings is that everything this man does is in Extremes....
Forgive me if I am wrong
You're not wrong at all. You're utterly right.
He even told me once that in the same way that mountain climbing feels a need to push things to the extreme, he believes he allowed himself to go homeless and depressed enough to consider ending his life...out of the same yearning. Who knows? Maybe the death wish is still the unresolved grief over losing his father at age 7. He owns that, but I think hasn't unpacked it all the way...not enough. Or he wouldn't still be overdrinking and telling a new woman in his life a few TOO MANY stories about his relationships with other women. It's not that I expect him not to have a history, but damn...too much information, ya know?
He said last night after we got through that conversation, "Now you know all my secrets." I said, "You don't know all mine, and I'm not telling them!
(Though I'd told him a few. I think I actually matched him for shock value a few times. Har.)
Oh pooh. Where's my Republican dentist?
sigh,
Hops
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PS--I'm really disappointed.
I can have complete compassion for the loneliness that drove him in some directions I don't want to go.
But deep inside, I really want something that seems to me both deeper and more innocent.
IOW, I would like a love in my life whose touch is more about passion than practice.
Personal, not perfected.
I am not sure which he is, and I know I'm going either-or good-bad again...drat.
I am confused and feeling relieved I'm not more deeply involved. Thank god I said I needed to go slowly and I have.
I don't or won't or wouldn't have to claw my way back out of attachment the way I did w/the gardener.
Still, I'm sorry.
Once again, romantic fantasy is trumped by common sense...(I never have been fond of common sense.)
I am sure he IS a nice man but my inner innocent would get quite messed up with all these images he's planted in my head of his former doings.
I think.
Hops
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For me, I only give my body when my heart is bonded to his and his to mine. I could not endure the pain of giving myself to a man who did not love me in a deep way.
I have had enough heartbreaks with my M to last a lifetime and so I honored my heart in this way, even though I did not know what I was doing.
I know you, Hops, have had too many heart breaks ,also.
Ami
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Of course you are disappointed, but only about what might have been, not in the choices you made. A little easier, I hope?
I think you hit the nail on the head with the passion vs. practice comment. With the right person, you won't feel worried about "underperforming" and neither will he.
It's a little tough for me to buy into your friend's contention that patronizing exotic dancers is "fun, not exploitive," at least from their point of view, but of course I don't know. I think many don't have a lot of options and know what to say to keep men coming around. But codependent--sigh. Really? See what I'm beginning to wonder about is what he HASN'T told you. You haven't known him for long and booze, sex and joblessness are on the table, and in my experience at least, most men take awhile before they get to the negative stuff. I know I haven't met him. I don't know him, you do. But...
I didn't meant to suggest he can't empathize with you, having a daughter etc. because he doesn't have kids. I only meant that, combined with the other issues, there may be deeper attachment problems involved. I don't know what, just something ELSE.
At any rate you sound resolved in your level of commitment to the relationship and its scope. Here's hoping for the best. All the best, however and whatever that may be. Good for you for standing firm and listening to your heart.
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Hoppy,
I'm sitting here tapping my fingers and thinking.
I'm thinking about the extreme from the mountain climbing to the homeless living and not giving a care if he lived or died. And in some way pushing everything to the extreme. Hops this is not normal.
Like he got a high Really high and a Low Really Low from both...being really up there HIGH feeling Good...and then really down....Low feeling really Low....and to the extreme....
Yet you say his drinking may go over board but he's not quiet Bombed Out All the Time....so he does what..some balance...not too much and not too little...
And you...he can balance and not push...not too much ..not too little.....yet he is extreme with what he is talking about to you....which has to do with his feeling...High's and Low's in his life...
Now I am asking myself ...Why does he want you to know all this? Too much information? I would say so. So soon?
Is this about Shock? Is this about your reaction? Or does he get the highs and the lows even talking about it....I'm confused too Hoppy.
Does it have to do with his father? Who knows...possibly...but I do think there are some very deep issues....
It almost seems to me that he can go...and I'm not doctor....but manic/depressive? I don't know Hops I don't know him and I don't know anything about the disorder...I'm just talking out my butt and thinking....
But my thoughts are of fear that this man may have some serious problems... I don't know...
I mean you don't have to think he is a good man or a bad man but he may be a very very troubled man. You know I don't know what the hell I'm taking about but I am thinking... that I don't know what I'm thinking....but I am...
Oh boy I sound nuts now.
He very well might be a nice man but it's not your inner innocent that will get messed up with all those images he planted in your mind....Innocent has nothing to do with it.....
Something is way OFF.....and the over drinking is in your face and something you don't want to get involved into if it was only just that.... You have heard his past, you are seeing his present...don't forget your seeing over drinking...and you know not the future...
Be carefull ......you can be friends....and I would not make a move other then that....Now.
Love
Deb
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Thanks, Deb. I agree.
I am really grateful for your caution, the way you're urging me to use my Big-Girl Math.
He really does have serious problems. He has wonderful insights, too, from his "Time in the Wilderness." I think friend is a fine word and I will stay grateful for the friendship and company, and let the fantasizing go. That feels saner.
My own problem is that people with serious problems are more interesting to me. So I have to be wary of my choices.
Like RD Laing said...maybe crazy people in this culture are really sane, because how could one live in this culture and really see it, see it clearly every day and what it does to people and to animals and to earth...and not be crazy, while the rest of us are humming, thinking The Way We Live is THE Way TO Live.
So the poet in me knows the mountain climber, the sculptor, the gardener-rebel, the philosopher...these are my kindred spritits.
The worn-out post-middle aged caregiver in me who's trying desperately to find a 2nd job, sell her car, and hold on to her home ... needs somebody pretty solid in my life. So maybe Gennulmen will become a solid friend. And I might be to him, as well.
That is a gift, too. Not with the ribbons and fanfare I still dream of sometimes. But it's a gift to find a new friend.
You're right, Deb. I need to cool it. And see if I can enjoy it staying...cool.
He is not the person I need to take the Big Risks with.
love,
Hops
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(((Hops)))
Well done.
Lighter
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I feel sad about Gennulman.
I did some reading today, and despite the ferocious polemics of some writers who defend stripping as empowering, it is so obvious to me that in the majority of cases, women who perform this way are re-enacting childhood sexual abuse.
I don't understand how a nice, gentle, kind, generous person can "take" from them then, even as a visual feast (much less the quasi-intimacy of a lap dance)...and still be "good"? I definitely understand the empowering aspect of earning good money -- god knows that IS feminist. And one book delved into how perhaps it could be healing for some strippers who maintain control and constantly challenge the audience to confront their humanity. But oh what a price.
I don't mean this as "these women are bad" and I understand why some sex workers are angry at being thought of as victims. They don't want to be.
This is what you were pointing out, CB. I do have a B & W brain, and I struggle not to judge him for it. The turth is though, the power of the performer over the audience is short-lived. He can go on with his acceptable equal-paying life without penalty. She goes on to age, be eliminated from "attractiveness", and in the meantime has not acquired skills that will translate over into a good career.
So I am angry at the men. Not the women. That may not be fair, as some mean Narcissistic and exploitative women no doubt wind up on the stage, acting out loathing of men. But in the main...I can't see the male audience in a forgiving light.
We are NOT OBJECTS, dammit. Even when we act as though we believe we are.
I just don't get it. I know he's a nice person based on his behavior toward me. Unfortunately, his overdisclosures have implanted a different image of him in my mind...
I don't think I can shake it off. It's a sad, pathetic, travesty to me.
I've never understood men -- or any viewer, female also -- and pornography. I do not understand how you avoid thinking about the actual life of the actual person.
Sigh. I'm having dinner with him Friday and he's going to a wedding at my church with me Saturday.
I feel sour about it. I feel like recoiling. I feel JUDGMENTAL.
I guess I will just have to feel what I feel and observe it, and see what I learn from it.
thanks for listening,
Hops
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Then again, what's wrong with recoiling?
Maybe I should just accept "this ain't for me" and set some new distance?
I feel strange. As a church person, he's a member of my "beloved community."
So I can't reject his humanity any more than I think the sex industries reject the participants'.
Oh ick.
Sigh,
Hops
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Well, there's a difference between being judgmental and using your judgment. You listened to him. You treated him with respect and he treated you the same. He was honest, you were honest. You don't have to reject his humanity. You also don't have to share intimate areas of your life with someone who seems to set a lower value on such issues. There's nothing wrong with that. There's everything RIGHT with that.
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Thanks, Gjazz...
I appreciate it.
I guess I'm just feeling the loss of another "dream" that was fantasy based.
But this time, I stayed on my feet! :lol:
Hops
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Most dreams are fantasy based. Some translate better into real life than others, that's all.
Yep, right there on your feet.
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I remember Scott telling me that some guys from school and he went to a strip club. He thought about the girls being s/ones D or M and hated seeing them exploited .
Ami
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Hops, you're digging really deeply into this topic - your own feelings as well as the significance in the relationship with Gennulman Friend, so I hope you won't mind what might seem like a digression.
What are your feelings regarding Michaelangelo's David? Famous paintings of nude women AND men? What are your feelings about whether nudes depicted in art are appropriate in public buildings? Is art that contains nudes - and solely for that reason - pornography; or are there specific circumstances where the answer would YES, definitely and NO, definitely? What pushes a work, in one direction or another?
What about Anne Geddes photos of her own nude children? Paeon to beauty & innocence or pornography?
I've been involved in discussions of this very topic for years - in art school, online with other artists, and defending my own work involving nudes. It's quite involved - and very, very personal. Over the years, I've learned that every individual has their own boundary-definitions about when a work of art becomes pornographic - when the "beauty" definition of one person (artist) is seen as exploitive, lewd, disgusting, and not fit for public consumption - taboo - by someone else.
There absolutely isn't a "right" or "wrong" opinion, definition, or viewpoint and there damn sure isn't any general social consensus, anymore - the supreme court's clause of "socially agreed upon standards of decency" notwithstanding (I've never really seen anyone define these stds of decency, except case by case).
There is only what works for YOU and ya know what? That might change case by case, too. Trust the force, Jedi Warrior! :D If something about this bothers you... distance, boundaries, watch, wait & see... you don't have to decide - once and for all - right now, do you?
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Oh CB, my heart breaks for that child. The traditional Chinese culture's attitudes toward girls chills me just as much as the Middle Eastern...at least most little Middle Eastern girls have a chance at life. In China, particularly rural China, many are still murdered at birth. The worst thing I ever learned about China was that there are still vestigial "baby towers" in rural areas. These are tall hollow structures, usually made of rock, where a parent would take a newborn girl baby, alive, and drop her in...because a girl was a girl, unwanted. Your friends are so close to that history. Just as close as Southern American racists who do violence to black people are to their history of slave owning...
I wish I could take her in. If I had the money, I'd beg for the chance.
You are brave to stand before that reality and not crumble.
I am so glad your fella knows how to love...more importantly, how to respect. I think some men fear women so much that they confuse respecting a woman with losing their respect for themselves. Affirming you...that's wonderful. And that's what I want too. It's a relief to reach a place inside myself where I realize -- he may say he is unapologetic, but this is not negotiable for me. I am not looking for him to feel SHAME ... but I wonder. If I weren't ashamed of some of my thoughts and behaviors, what would have motivated me to change them? Maybe I have shame in a limiting box, too.
In the battle to survive an N parent I have identified shame as an enemy. But that too is an extreme. I remember a distinction -- it's not any feelings of guilt or shame that are destructive. It's the distinction between guilt and TOXIC shame. Guilt says, I have made a mistake, and want to make what amends I can. Toxic shame says, I am the mistake.
I don't think Gennulman is a mistake at all. There's a lot to like and admire in him. But I can't help it, I think he has made a mistake by training himself to be blase and even proud about strolling on the steamy side of the sidewalk, without asking himself what is my contribution to the direction of these women's lives, what do I enable by spending my money here?
This blends in with thoughts about Amber's questions...I'll continue there.
Thank you, CB. Your thoughtfulness is radiant, clear, and so so helpful.
much love,
Hops
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I really appreciate your questions, Amber...and I'm glad to be digging in to the topic. Anything that sheds light and eases pain in this area is very very good for me to unearth. I bet CB is right, that Gennulman is in my life for a reason. I'm already sensing a gift ... permission to explore, turn things over. The upside of his eagerness to talk about such things is that it allows me to talk back. I find in narrating some, my own experience becomes more clear.
boundary-definitions about when a work of art becomes pornographic - when the "beauty" definition of one person (artist) is seen as exploitive, lewd, disgusting, and not fit for public consumption - taboo - by someone else.
boundary-definitions about when a work of art becomes pornographic - when the "beauty" definition of one person (artist) is seen as exploitive, lewd, disgusting, and not fit for public consumption - taboo - by someone else.
Classical nudes don't bother me at all. Nudes in art don't bother me at all. They're often beautiful, or disturbing, or thought provoking. And the body is beautiful. I once worked as a naive nude model. Very early in the morning, a commercial artist would pick me up at my college dorm, drive me to his studio and sketch me while I sat there nude. I remember a mild sense of power, though I didn't really know what it was about. Over time I began to understand that this had to do with his life. He was Catholic, married, many children. I doubt very much that his wife knew he spent two mornings a week sketching a naked 20 year old. Once the penny dropped, and I realized he was doing it for gratification in some way (though he never behaved inappropriately nor touched me) -- I became instantly aversive, and quit. (It was the best hourly pay I'd ever earned though.)
I feel like parsing this:
when the "beauty" definition of one person (artist) is seen as exploitive, lewd, disgusting, and not fit for public consumption - taboo - by someone else
All I care about is the exploitive part. I am not worried about judging lewd, disgusting, or public decency. I am VERY worried about the exploitation in the dancers' past or present lives. I am angry that the culture still measures women this way, so that so many dancers do it because they cannot imagine their way to a full education, a career with intellectual satisfaction (that's a form of power) and economic justice (that's a form of power) and security (that's a form of power) and education for their children (a form of power) and access to health care (a form of power) and affordable housing (a form of power).
All of it is about power OVER. And though naked dancers definitely exploit back, and experience short-term earning power and in some cases pscyhological power ... I believe many of them, over a life, LOSE their chance for healthy positive power and strength ... the chance to build strong, healthy lives for themselves. There are exceptions in the media, and pole dancing classes, and now it's becoming just as popularized and absorbed into the culture as porn has become.
I grieve this. I love the human body. It's beautiful. But who knows...those models in classical times weren't exactly women with jobs, were they? Did they earn enough money to have homes, jobs, healers, opportunities?
So in a way I thnk our tolerance (as a culture) of the sex industries is skewed toward a debate about freedom. When for me, the debate is about economic power. Mostly.
It's not about nudity, for me. It's about the USING of nakedness. I spent a week at a nude beach in France and loved it. We all were equal under the sun: old young male female beautiful ordinary fat thin tall short gorgeous scarred average.
In the same way that eating food is an animal need, so is sex. We don't charge starving children money when we hand them a bowl of gruel. Why is money involved when women starving for money or power or sexual healing dance naked? Maybe if it all were free, and business/industry/bosses/ownership/tipping fees were eliminated ... no in fact, CERTAINLY if it weren't a transaction ... then I probably wouldn't feel this way. It would be a cultural ritual then, like a particular kind of parade.
I'm avoiding some paperwork I must tackle. Thanks again for the thoughtful questions.
love
Hops
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I wonder if all gennulman is really doing is seeking out company where he's sure not to be rejected or judged for any/all perceived "failures" in his life. After all, here in America we put great stock in a person's job (none) home (none) family (none). Mainstream women are likely to be a hard sell in terms of a relationship, and fair enough. But strippers are all business and making men feel good about themselves is how they pay the bills. So for someone who doesn't feel good about himself, it's safe and helps a little, anyway, provided he doesn't think too hard about it. And in my opinion, someone who claims to know a bunch of these women and respect them, and says that they all feel good about what they are doing and empowered or whatever...just don't buy it. Sounds too superficial, like a line. These women are as individual and complex as any of us.
Not sure, Hops, if he's still going to these clubs. But you know your heart, it's sometimes hard not to ignore what it is trying to say, but you know what's best for you. And if it changes, it changes.
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Hops,
What I have learned is that every individual we meet comes with a slew of variables, experiences & values and we may not understand those variables, experiences & values because they are so foreign to us. So, even though he has treated you well, his values & experiences may be so different from yours to the point where you cannot comprehend him. And that's OK. You are not dehumanizing him, but rather just (possibly) concluding that he is not a love match. And that's OK.
I know what you mean about the dream dying before it began & the sadness that causes, but we move on with the knowledge that (1) there's no price Charming on a white horse, only fallible, imperfect human beings, (2) there's always the possibility for companionship & love & (3) if nothing else, these experiences are like holding a mirror up to ourselves, so that we can learn about ourselves.
I think it's great that you're really dissecting this experience. Gennulman is a blessing in disguise because the experience is helping you to sort out what you want/don't want and to examine your feelings when you feel ambiguity or negativity. So, this is good!
For me, nudity in art is beauty and humanness, whereas strip clubs generally exploit desperate women.
For me, the homelessness, alcoholism & sharing too much info about strip clubs & past relationships are red flags. You deserve way better.
I apologize for being so opinionated, but, do you think your caregiving for your mother is leaking into other relationships? To me, kinda sounds like this guy needs a caregiver & perhaps he senses that you can fulfill that role, plus, you have been conditioned to fulfill that role? If you agree, what if you role played a bit & dropped the role of caregiver for a bit, just as an experiment? What would your world feel like if you just caregived to Hops & no one else? Again, forgive me if I'm off target.
But, big picture: I think analysing this experience is growth inducing & I think you can learn a lot from the experience of knowing this chap.
xoxo,
ann
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Thanks Hops, for responding to the questions so honestly and in-depth! I appreciate this kind of dialogue on these types of topics.
I'm glad you separated the exploitation from the other issues and I pretty much agree with you about economic power vs freedom, on this topic. That gets me 'round to wondering... how much cultural acceptance of the sex industry - with a side-dish of shame attached to it... for the women ONLY (not the male customers)... is still slanted toward the pre-feminist/sexual revolution stereotypes. As if society couldn't quite get unstuck here.
Male strip clubs for women aren't perceived or judged in quite the same way - culturally - are they? Neither the performers, nor the customers... what's that all about?
And the next thing that brings up for me is the flip side of power - risk... physical, emotional, economic, social and other forms of risk inherent in the exploitation. Given both a female and a male stripper - the risks don't seem quite equal to me. It seems - it feels - as though the risks are much higher and likely more life-affecting for women, than for men performers.
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Hops,
I noticed something you said about yourself, which I'm highlighting, not to be hurtful, but because it, perhaps, reveals how you view yourself:
The worn-out post-middle aged caregiver in me who's trying desperately to find a 2nd job, sell her car, and hold on to her home No, No, No!!
Dear Hops, you seem to be very negative & down on yourself. Can you work on this? What strikes me is the air of desperation. Hops, you are a wonderful, caring person, a giving, sensitive person going thru some very hard times. You have been treated unfairly, but that doesn't make you a rotten person. You sound very hard on yourself. Can you re-phrase this in positives? Some self affirmations? Not self negations. When we go thru hard times, we can feel crappy about ourselves, but, that can also be the point where we can turn around our feelings of self negativity. Circumstances were unfair & negative, but you are a wonderful, loving, deep, spiritual & sincere person.
Perhaps this is a gift from your Gennulman: The experinece is causing you to look at yourself and perhaps what you see is negative. Can you turn that around? I think you can.
xoxo,
ann
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Male strip clubs for women aren't perceived or judged in quite the same way - culturally - are they? Neither the performers, nor the customers... what's that all about?
Amber,
Good point. But, for me, I feel that most strippers, male or female, do that work because they can't get anything better & big money is the lure. I also feel that the stripper, male or female, is usually subjected to exploitation and a loss of dignity.
xoxo,
ann
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Male strip clubs for women aren't perceived or judged in quite the same way - culturally - are they? Neither the performers, nor the customers... what's that all about?
Amber,
Good point. But, for me, I feel that most strippers, male or female, do that work because they can't get anything better & big money is the lure. I also feel that the stripper, male or female, is usually subjected to exploitation and a loss of dignity.
xoxo,
ann
Brilliant as usual, Ann! Ami
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I'd say a good part of the cultural difference has to do with the fact that there is a great deal of male on female violence associated with sex and very little female on male violence associated with sex. Physically, culturally, socially, women start with less power than men, and give up more of that smaller percentage when they engage in that sort of work.
Early on Hops introduced the issue of respect, because without that a healthy relationship isn't possible. I don't believe most women at Chippendales DISrespect the men on stage. I do believe most men at titty clubs DISrespect the women on stage. That's just my opinion, maybe a male can weigh in and tell me I'm wrong.
If a woman wants to be a stripper, more power to her. Worked for Diablo Cody, who now has an Oscar. But she had an exit plan.
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Thanks, Ami. Love to you.
xoxo,
ann
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gjazz,
"titty clubs": Exactly: If one shows one's titties at a titty club, I assume she gets no respect or, rather dignity.
edit: I'm no prude, but I think most strippers feel like lost people, re-enacting or manifesting some trauma. An yet, 'sex work' is one of the oldest professions. But, I believe that if one has a choice, if one has options, one would choose work which didn't involve selling their sexuality in such a manner.
xoxo,
ann
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Respect is such an interesting topic to me, because I grew up in a home devoid of it. I do not believe respect must be earned. I believe disrespect must be earned. I believe respect for others should be the default position. Because I have no moral issue with people dancing nude--male or female--I don't think anyone should be disrespected for choosing to do so. That is to say, if I meet someone, and that person is a dancer in a titty bar, provided she wasn't looking for help, provided she genuinely wanted to be there, I couldn't care less. Adults have the right to make such decisions.
I do believe most men who patronize those places bring their disrespect for women in the door with them, rather than develop it as a result of the stage action. I don't think these men disrespect a woman for baring her breasts, I think they tell themselves, "see, I was right about the bitches all along." And I think some men who patronize those places are probably just terribly lonely, and project onto the dancers some sad script in which they swoop in like Superman and save the poor defenseless lass from all the tawdriness and they end up living happily ever after.
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gjazz,
I agree. I guess it's the 'titty bar' phrase that threw me. Semantics.
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In my opinion most women do not go into sex work because it's their dream job. I grew up in a household where women were constantly degraded. I was told I was worth nothing. So while it can be hard for me because my tendency is to want to project that, if a woman wants to strip for a living (or just for fun or whatever), I must respect it. There's very little in the way I've lived my life that coincides with what my family and friends from childhood believe is right. The criticism is always there. The emotional blackmail is always there. I'm on my own, so I understand someone going against what people tell them they should be doing, saying "I won't be your friend unless..." or "I can't invite you unless..." or "you won't be happy unless..."
I respect others' decisions for their lives--provided they are decisions, and the people are adults.
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OMG gjazz - your last post just spoke volumes to me. Thank you. I see something about myself and my childhood in a new light. Thanks again.
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Hi gjazz,
I agree with you & I am not looking to debate the issue of nude dancing (male or female), particularly since it originates in ancient times, dating back to the Roman Empire and before.
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I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread so hope I'm commenting accurately, but what I did read leads me to say a couple of things.
Hops if ever there was a guy displaying red flags it would be this gennulman friend of yours. You are extremely vulnerable right now because of what your brother is doing to you, particularly as it applies to the ostracization within your FOO. I hope you have very long arms because IMO he should definitely be kept at arms length.
It is my experience that very few people aren't eccentric in some way. Some of the most ostentatiously eccentric were at the same time some of the most profoundly boring and inherently predictable people one could meet while others were perfectly sweet and still others dangerously unhinged; they were simply posers putting on a mask for others. Some of the most stolid, conventional looking folks, even Republican dentists, are at the same time some of the least predicatable most interesting people you could imagine; many in a very good way with experiences, viewpoints and knowledge you would never guess and some in a dark and very dangerous way. Something about books and covers comes to mind.
Men who patronize strip clubs disrespect women. A woman who displays her body to such men is disrespecting herself.
The culture of drugs and prostitution which permeates such places is just a further sign of the disrespect they cultivate.
mud
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Thus spake Mud.
Red flags, stippers, books & covers.
Hear, hear!
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I'm not looking to debate nude dancing, either. I come on here to express my views and/or experiences freely and honestly, just as I assume everyone else does. That said, I agree with Mud, mostly, and I think Hops has made the right decision. The one thing I haven't asked Hops that came to mind some time ago, is whether seeking out people who are needy/co-dependent is part of feeling unworthy, somehow, of anyone "better?" It seems to me you have an awful lot to offer the right person. You are extremely compassionate and caring and empathetic, and willing to bend over backwards to help. You deserve a balanced relationship with someone who brings what YOU need from them to the table.
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You're spot on. I can't become intimate without offering my heart along with my body any more. Maybe I can, but the price is too steep. So I'm just not going to do that to myself again.
Heart firmly in chest,
hugs
Hops
hiya Hops
My very best to you in your quest and I quoted you here because that is how I am.
I have been understanding as years pass, and I hear about more and more "relationships", that once the woman has given all of herself, she has invested far more than the man has.
If it's true that men think about sex 'constantly', and that there are SO may 'cheaters' then a man will never be satisfied in being monogamous, but will take whatever any 'chippy' offers.
If the man I love has used a part of his body. to 'enter' my body, then I would expect it go nowhere else. If it 'entered' a different woman every day then I think his 'part' ought to rot and fall off!
A marriage can work without sex, but it cannot work without trust and respect. IMHO.
I might dub myself "Lorena Bobbit II", if I were in that set of circumstances...............
........and imagine my horror when I learned that Ex-N, as of 6 years now, is/was...was/were... Bi-- and where his 'funny little part' has been.......even before we met.....and I could upchuck!
Maybe that is why I never married....maybe I knew more than I 'knew'
This is timely for me as I tried to watch the movie, "Bachelor Party: The Last Temptation" (supposedly a comedy, but the groom to be was the only one who had sense) just last night yet it became so "lurid' that I had to stop. I use that term because I never saw showers being taken. The nude boobs were all silicon, so "not real" that it made me almost be ashamed to be a woman...just two basketballs on each gal's chest. Rear views of G-strings that made me hope none had diarrhea, but that idea came as one guy reached in and scratched his bare ass/whatever under his shorts, then used the same hand to grab into the hors d'oeuvre tray and stuff food into his pocket.
I have a sense of being Highly Sensitive. Can you understand? Ha Ha :shock: :lol: :D
Well I am off to upchuck!
Good Luck
Love
Izzy
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Hi Hops,
I am so sorry to hear that your brother is still amping up his sadistic, narcissistic agenda. Typically, he is slandering you and you are still left with the bill.
This must be so painful and exhausting. You deserve so much better.
This fellow from the church is appearing when you are very vulnerable. The harness is on you so tight that no wonder you want to go bananas with a guy who is such a complicated and dangerous candidate. He liked to hang out with strippers and had jolly times with them. For one thing, this is a kind of a repellant passtime. I wonder what his lady friends thought of him? This does not add up to a pretty picture. Also, I think he is testing the waters to see what you tolerate. He did this stripper thing and what else.
You mentioned the brain tumor in a sort of by the way kind of thing. I have quite a bit of personal experience with this as well as professional experience. Some of the consequences of brain surgery are: Blurting out things inappropriately, low impulse control, talkativeness, being stuck on certain subjects, poor judgement, sensitivity to overstimulation , fatique and inability to hold down a job. This is a very big obstacle to relationship. Socially, they can keep it together for short periods of time. If he drinks, this just makes it all worse. Maybe non of these things apply but maybe they do.
I want to start giving you advice. I want you to put yourself first. Its like the ship is burning at the dock and it is time to cut the lines and let it sink. What is the price you are paying? To your health and sanity? Is a house worth it?
Or turn the house into a cash cow. Get the boarders paying rent under the table etc. Start up a home for seniors. There must be a way out of this without taking a retail job after working forty hours a week. Are you sort of giving these boarders a break?? They are helping with utilities? Hmmmmmm . There are lots of hearts and brains here for you to run things by. If I sound judgemental I am trying to be straight with you. You are such a wonderful person.
Love
Sea storm
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CB, Ann, Gjazz, Deb, Mud, Sea Storm...
You have all said such concrete, wise things, I have been unable to assimilate them and answer each. I want to try to at least acknowledge the highlights (of which there are many) and thank you, profoundly, for the efforts you made to take on this subject with such sense and vision.
Gjazz:
I think some men who patronize those places are probably just terribly lonely, and project onto the dancers some sad script in which they swoop in like Superman and save the poor defenseless lass from all the tawdriness and they end up living happily ever after.
That's him. He is really quite accomplished but also insecure...and I think this is what it's about. One of the first things he told me was he's a major codependent. He got involved with one of the dancers, who apparently is borderline and was overwhelming to deal with, even violent with him a few times. He still is loyal, plays Scrabble with her online. There is a pathos to that image of him.
AND
whether seeking out people who are needy/co-dependent is part of feeling unworthy, somehow, of anyone "better?" It seems to me you have an awful lot to offer the right person. You are extremely compassionate and caring and empathetic, and willing to bend over backwards to help. You deserve a balanced relationship with someone who brings what YOU need from them to the table.
Well...I've been rejected a lot. It's odd, but I feel much stronger, lately. I think because I'm grabbing my future in my hands and fighting for what I want (e.g., fighting back vs. my brother, and determined to not give him my happiness--which is succeeding, so far). In a way, this codependent man feels nurturing. It may not be healthy, but it quite amazes me to have someone be cooking wonderful food for me once or twice a week, and offering to help me in so many ways. It feels supportive and generous, and that I haven't had for a loooong time. He may be a transitional friend, or something else. But I know the truth is, it's a real comfort to be hearing from him regularly and knowing he wants to see me regularly, and feeling valued. His being a "defective loser" -- feh. I just don't see him that way, though I recognize the ways he's frail. I know he may not be a good long-term prospect, but in the present, he's giving me so much that I have missed for a decade. And thank heaven, it's not sexual. I'm holding that at bay for my wellbeing, and he accepts things as they are.
Mud:
Some of the most stolid, conventional looking folks, even Republican dentists, are at the same time some of the least predicatable most interesting people you could imagine; many in a very good way with experiences, viewpoints and knowledge you would never guess and some in a dark and very dangerous way.
Oh, Mud. I would so like it if I could smuggle you to a nice restaurant and we'd meet as old buddies and you could get a bead on this guy. I am bemused ... he is a gentle person. I don't sense dark and dangerous (though I did with previous Nbf.) I just sense maybe the lonely messed-up guy who had no clue what to do about women, and because of his attraction to extreme risk (iow, climbing mountains at a dangerous level, and perhaps that was partly death wish, from unresolved grief over his father's death at his age 7). He tells me, and I have no sense he's lying, that his time of homelessness ("time in the wilderness") has cleansed him in some way, spiritually. He does seem to be very freed in spirit, and there is a vibe of freedom and peace about him. He winnowed his life down to pure survival, literally didn't care if he lost it, was rescued, and has been discovering happiness ever since. Funnily enough, despite my extreme dislike of this bit of his history...he is showing me fewer red flags than so many others I've met.
But I love love love what you said about those with conventional exteriors who may be the most interesting and worthy people... I just don't seem to attract these men, though I so wish I did. Maybe they're thrown by my semi-bohemian appearance with my long white hair, and my extroversion. I dunno. Women in this community seem to "match" respectable mainstream men. They dress and behave conservatively, and I don't... Thank you, Mud, I so value your input.
Sea, what you said about brain tumors really shocked me. I only notice the talkativeness and being stuck on certain subjects (he's quite obsessive about food), but it does make sense the brain trauma has to do with it. Thank you. That hadn't crossed my mind. I never knew him before tumor + gamma knife, so I don't know if it changed him. But I will try to learn more about this.
Mainly, thoug, i'm simply enjoying his company and undemanding friendship.
CB, I think he's a gift too. I am somehow much more present-focused and feel supportive, and I know he is a positive influence in the sense of being a friend who is interested in sharing time and pays attention to my life. He is teaching me, and I am teaching myself. So for now, I don't feel like setting him aside. It would be arbitrary and undeserved. Though it's good to maintain my own space and focus, and having the ministers here also creates that cushion. We see each other about twice a week and that's just right.
With love and thanks to all of you, and apologies to anybody I didn't thank individually...I'm fading.
xxxxoooo
Hops
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Hops, I need to apologize to you. I read the first page of this post/subject when it was first out. For some reason, it really triggered me and made me feel so bad for you... I think I just have such deep fears of being left penniless... of being irresponsible (which I am a lot).
It seems that you have gotten a lot of great advice about your gentleman friend...
Please forgive me. I just got scared and felt too paralyzed to answer, even though I wanted to support you.
You are a wonderful person and I hope this will all pass soon and you can live an N-free, sunshine-filled life.
Love,
beth
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Hi all,
Another beautiful weekend. Only thing wrong with fall is winter. But it's been gorgeous.
I talked for a long time w/Gennul yesterday. Told him that I really have a struggle to accept that piece of his history, that it's not about judging, but that I take what is done to girls so personally. I walked him through a lot of the associations I have...2nd class citizenship, women on one side of the world in burkas, one another side naked and flashing their you-know-whats in men's faces. The common denominator is that women don't own their own bodies. They're either regarded as evil things only for the use of men, or wicked things that can still be translated into currency. And the economic disparity, etc, etc.
He wasn't defensive, but he did keep telling me that he had never thought about it politically. He traveled on business all over the world, and often the male executive (of course) hosts would take him out. Then, when he began to talk to the women, he saw that he could be non-aggressive, respectful, and make some connection. After that, he would go alone. I do think it was the lonely-guy-sees-himself-as-special-catgory-of-leerer, because he's kind.
And I do believe he's kind. And, some men who go to prostitutes are kind. The repressed commercial artist who sketched me when I was in college was kind. All men who enjoy looking at naked women aren't terribly exploiters, I guess.
I still loathe the industry. He is naive in a way. I said, for me it's all a continuum...child porn on the one end, snuff films on the other. He said, do you believe those really exist? Jeez.
I think he compartmentalized things to enjoy his little piece (pun intended) of fantasy. Whereas I am swamped by the whole. But anyway, he listened respectfully to how I feel. That did a lot to make me let go of it. A piece of his past is irretrievable.
Mine too. So I don't want to badger him about it any more. I will have to see over time if he objectifies women, or me. So far, greatest crime was his referring enthusiastically to "sundress season". I think in a way he's healthier than I am...I am repressed, sexually, and that's a shame.
Maybe he will one day have that to teach me. I sense my unfolding.
But for now, still buddies. Shopping, talking for hours, cooking together. Nice hugs. That's plenty.
love to all,
Hops
PS--I got offered a Saturday job at a trendy downtown florist. Not enough money but it would be pleasant.
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So glad you were able to have that conversation. That definitely says something about him - about you both.
That is what is important.
I have stayed out of this conversation for a while b/c I had nothing to offer beyond what had already been said. And what I am going to add now really has nothing to do with gennulman friend but more about the issue of women/girls and the sex industry. I am writing it now b/c of some things I saw on TV this weekend. I cannot reference them b/c I don't remember what show it was on.
But in the segment that I saw, it was about a man whose 14 year old daughter had walked down to KFC with her 15year old cousin and disappeared. The police had no interest and would not help her family find her, would not list her a missing but counted them as run-aways. They were found across the state line in Michigan when local Michigan police and the FBI were conducting a sting operation on pimps who pushed prostitution via Craig's list. When the FBI were setting up their raid they stumbled across a couple of johns setting up some young girls in a motel room which by coincidence was in the same motel where they were setting up the sting. But instead they took these girls in and saved them and contacted the young girl's father.
The story goes and and gets more and more complecated but the point that I am making is that the sex trade is not about women, who for whatever reason, choose to dance or prostitute, but the sex trade is also made up of girls and women who are kidnapped and sold into the sex trade and it is right here in the US and it is horrible and it is the worst of humanity and it is not okay. And unfortunately, like it or not, the men who meekly and kindly just like to go see girls dance nude are feeding part of that horror whether or not they know it. It is not a no harm industry. It is a devastating victimizing business regardless of what people like to claim.
Thanks for letting me put in my two cents worth. Love to all - GS
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I agree, Hops, that some men who go to prostitutes are kind. I'm always wary when anyone says "all people who do this, feel that; or all people who do this, do it for this reason." I hate labels. But there is one thing you wrote here that made my antenna go up, and that is:
"He is naive in a way. I said, for me it's all a continuum...child porn on the one end, snuff films on the other. He said, do you believe those really exist? Jeez."
That does not sound naive to me, Hops. It sounds dishonest. Child porn, does it exist? Huh?
I wasn't there, you were, you know him, I don't. That's just my first and rather strong impression reading that line. A man trying to come across as wide-eyed and innocent and achieving quite the opposite.
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::picturing Hops peacefully arranging flowers....::
It was a nice thought.
Light
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the sex trade is also made up of girls and women who are kidnapped and sold into the sex trade and it is right here in the US and it is horrible and it is the worst of humanity and it is not okay. And unfortunately, like it or not, the men who meekly and kindly just like to go see girls dance nude are feeding part of that horror whether or not they know it. It is not a no harm industry. It is a devastating victimizing business regardless of what people like to claim.
Me TOO, GS. That is exactly it. I think his self-esteem was low enough that he could only feel connected through a medium like that for a while. He shared more about that tonight. I think he's telling the truth. And who am I to judge a man who abased himself (without seeing it for what it was) by trying to buy female attention? I accepted really awful mistreatment from men for years. Not in a public venue, but lonely, trapped in miserable marriage/s. He told me more about his mother tonight...not a bad woman, but terribly low in self-esteem and terribly repressed. Affection--not there. I think the odd deference of a man with no/low self-esteem who "buys" the attention of dancers came from that dark lonely place. And lord knows his life got dark and lonely.
Seeing him come into happiness and self-acceptance now is pretty nice to watch. I'm sure there's a dark streak in him too. But it's not an abusive or evil streak. I am sure.
Hi Gjazz...he wasn't being purposefully naive about child porn. He was doubting the existence of snuff films. Like many people who have assimilated the limitless horrors of what gets done to women, I do believe they exist. And are not an "urban legend." But a little research...and even such sober site as Snopes.com say No, no evidence... Who knows. I sure don't want to be proved right. He just never assumed that was true.
Tonight he told me one thing he likes about our relationship is that I seem okay with it being undefined. And I came right back, well, you know, I would definitely like to marry again. But it will be to somebody who thinks I'm so wonderful they'll do everything they can to tie me down! And instead of recoiling, he hugged me more.
A nice feeling. Don't know how to make sense of it, but we're getting close. And I'm liking it.
love,
Hops
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I read that as he doubted the existence of both child porn and snuff films. At any rate, sounds like you are doing the right thing: total honesty, no hidden agendas. I have everything crossed for you that this will be a very happy relationship for you because Hops, you deserve it. I believe it's not only possible but likely he never thought long and hard about the sex trade and all the ramifications. Now, perhaps, he will.
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Glad you're feeling OK, Hops.
::whispering:: Just be mindful of your boundaries.
Light
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I'm beginning to think I'm going la-la-la again.
Gennul has been so amazingly helpful and supportive about things that overwhelm me. He's skilled with spreadsheets and accounting and has been so eager to help me assess and plan...aiming to succeed, if I can, at the hearing with Nbro.
I am so moved by his helpfulness I am in denial about his alcoholism.
Well, not in denial that he's clearly alcoholic.
I'm in denial about how tragic it might be to get more deeply or intimately involved.
I think we've been tiptoeing in that direction.
Hops
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you've addressed other barriers--can you talk to him about the drinking before jumping in? That can be a pretty tough hurdle. Hang in there.
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Hops,
I wonder if you could do a little more sorting in your own mind....
I find that the old black and white thinking can really sabotage me....as in: he's such a nice guy, maybe we can be intimate. What to do with the not-so-nice aspects? Ignore them--because I can't be intimate unless he's nice.
What if you refuse to close your eyes to the not-so-nice--the alcoholism. What if you make yourself acknowledge and keep it always before you? He's an alcoholic, and he is nice. That's because alcoholics can be nice. They can be charming. They can be loving. Don't let yourself go black and white.
Then you can decide whether or not you want to be intimate with a very nice alcoholic. Force yourself to acknowledge that he probably won't change. That what you see is what you get.
I don't know....that helps me a lot. Some of the angst I think that we experience in relationships is the utter surprise when the thing we have been trying to ignore is no longer ignorable. And we feel betrayed or broken-hearted. I think it's really helpful to refuse to ignore anything.
Love
CB
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thank you, thank you, CB.
You're absolutely right.
He is an alcoholic and he is nice.
I don't like to assume that no alcoholic will ever get sober. But I must REFUSE to go to far based on a fantasy of him getting sober.
He is what he is, right now. Kind, helpful, attractive, and pickled.
Much love to you and would love an update when you can...restaurant, M, kids??
xxoo
Hops
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I know several very nice routine drinkers. Not sure if they fit the label of alcoholic--it's certainly possible. One called me yesterday and asked to go to lunch, "something quick and small." She arrived with a half bottle of Pinot noir and a full bottle of Zinfandel for two of us to take to a place in town, not quick, not small, not cheap. We both ended up pickled. I had a great time. The next day is never QUITE as fun, though! :-/ Drinking wine, every single day, is part of who she is. She tells me this. It's her "lifestyle." She calls me a lightweight. I don't mind. I'm nobody's judge. I told her, once, that her drinking and pill-popping worried me because I care about her, but that's as far as I'll go. We're different and close, supportive friends. BTW I told her about coconut oil, which I'm loving! So the word spreads.
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Please! Gjazz, tell ME about coconut oil!
I've read dribs and drabs and got some I've been rubbing on my skin...but so far, haven't really convinced myself to eat it.
Should I?
What has it done for you?
(I am eager to find the best whole food supplements I can. Need all the help I can get.)
thanks!
xo
Hops
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YOU told ME about the coconut oil! I think it was you...I heard about it on the board. So I got some and have been using it overnight on my face, and from time to time dissolving a tablespoon or so in bath water. Have not eaten any, but I smell like a meringue pie.
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Oh gjazz,
I don't post much anymore, but I read .... I had such a chuckle when you said you smelled like a meringue pie. Thank you for the smiles!
((((Hops - as always, you and so many here are in my heart and thoughts even though I don't post.))))
Love,
Peace
::huge, huge smile gjazz - thank you::
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FP: glad it made you smile, but I DO smell like a pie. Seriously, fresh out of the oven. I told my friend yesterday that unless her husband likes coconut cream, she'd have to try it while he's on the road. I'm a native of Southern California and the truth is we all smelled like this as teenagers, courtesy of Hawaiian Tropic suntan oil, but at my advanced age, I wash my pillowcases frequently.
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I am totally senile.
Well, coconut pie is much more seductive than frangipani.
I'm liking it on my skin too. I remember reading somewhere we're supposed to EAT it, too.
It helps one lose weight...THEY say. Whoever they are.
Hmmm. Let me know if I said anything else useful! :lol:
I'm up too late...start my new Saturday job early in the a.m.
Watching Real Simple on TV, a show where a cheerful team of women come roaring in to an overwhelmed person's home and help her fix EVERYTHING.
GS...where are we going to find them????
xxoo everybody
Hops
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CB, do you think there is a codependency relationship with you and your partner?
How can you spend 12 h tpgether?
Is that healthy?
If you are happy I guess it is good.
How your kids feel about him?
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Hadn't heard about the weight loss potential. OK, I'll go in, and let you know. This stuff looks like Crisco, though, not sure how I'll get any down! Hope the new job was satisfactory.