Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on June 26, 2009, 09:39:59 AM
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With all the stories about Michael Jackson's life....
one wonders about the voice he experienced as a child.
Ironically, he gained the globe's collective ear,
while his personal voice seemed to grow more faint.
Mo2
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Good point - but I'm in the boat of who cares - he got away with being a child molester and is still celebrated. I think THAT is a crime. I wonder how it feels for those children who are so voiceless in the face of his celebrity. They are the voiceless I care about surrounding Michael Jackson.
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I've always thought of Michael Jackson as a child......
not an adult....
which is odd now that I think about it.
He seemed bent on self destructing behind an unrecognizable puppet face.
I wonder if that goes back to not having a voice in childhood.
Mo2
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After watching all the coverage, it is clear to me that Michael grew up with "voicelessness" issues. Perhaps his domineering father, Joe, was the narcissist. It was clear that he was both physically and emotionally abusive to both Michael and his siblings. The level of self-destructive and unnatural behaviors that Michael engaged in-----from the never-ending plastic surgery to the desire to live as a child (via a Peter Pan complex) which he manifested through his Neverland ranch and culminating in the numerous accusations about child molestation----must have emanated from serious childhood issues. Perhaps it was because Michael was regarded as the most talented of his family (which resulted in the N "(dad Joe) to control him and make his talents and successes his own) that he appears to be the most affected by his family. He certainly appeared to be the most sensitive, vulnerable and affected by his family issues. His eagerness to please, to be loved by legions of adoring fans (although few real-world relationships) indicate to me that, like the rest of us, he was forever on the search to be loved by his family---no doubt, especially his dad..........
In the end, despite the amazing musical legacy he left behind, he remains a tragic and sad figure. It was so obvious he never achieved any level of happiness in his life. He was never able to find fulfilling love in his life. Even his children, whom he clearly adored, were raised to "mask" themselves. Like his poignant song, he could never look at the "man in the mirror." Indeed, through all the many plastic surgeries and physical changes, it appeared his goal was to transform himself into a white woman.
What an absolute tragedy that despite unbelievable gifts and talents, amazing opportunities that only a handful of people will ever experience in a lifetime and everything a person might want in life, including three beautiful children, he died such a lonely, unhappy and pained man.
One thing I think is particularly clear. All the strange behaviors that he exhibited had to come from somewhere. A person does not suddenly just decide to exhibit the self-destructive behavors he did without real causes. How very unhappy he must have been throughout his life! And what pain and hurt he must also have caused not only the families and children he was alleged to have hurt but also the family, siblings and others in his life who genuinely loved him and wanted to help him.
In an interview, he acknowledged the pain his father caused him but that he completely forgave his father.......An acknowledgement that came much too easly, I think.
Just goes to show you how incredibly important childhood experiences and parenting can be in a person's life. It changes not only who you are but who you could be.
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So true.
Now the question remains....what happens to his children? What provisions were made for them in the event that the unthinkable happens, which has now occurred? I read a report that not even his family is sure there is even a will.
Bones
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People who have a normal childhood do not try to achieve. People who have been mistreated by parents try to achieve and be better and obtaib something.
Einstain, Mozart, and many others. Peopl who are contecnt with them selves dop not try to acheive, and just have a normal life.
Eckhart Tolle tried to suicide several times before conv erting into one of the most famouys writers in self help books, Wayne Dyer have alcoholic father and eneded up in an orphanage before he converted in one of the most important celebrities in self help.
Scape goats try to get better to ever deserve the love of their parents. The golden children feel so special thatr they donot need to do anything because thay already have what the needy is looking for.
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My point, is that MJ must have been mistreated as a child, ptherwise he would have been content with his nose and his color. And not to try to be better than his sisters and brothers.
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I know this may sound harsh...what about his children and the other children who were victimized by him? Where are their voices? Having been victimized by the NWomb-Donor, her pedophile boyfriend, then the court system, I can identify with the children who were molested, then silenced by his money! I hope those children REGAIN their voices!!!!!
Bones
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Me too, Bones.
I felt pity for Jackson as a tortured child. It wrung the heart to watch his distortion over the years.
But once he was grown and gone where he went, I felt cold rage about the parents who delivered their kids to him, and for Jackson himself for his sense of entitlement to sleep with them (at the least) and generally mess with their heads to gratify his whatever it was. (I suspect simple paedophelia, but his money would insulated him from the diagnosis, I figure...sick country.)
I can grieve the talent and music and boy he once was, that makes sense to me. (Though in his singing I didn't like "yips" and "yaps" as one reviewer put it.)
Grieving the 50 year old as though he was Jesus crucified doesn't make sense to me.
I think he was somewhat insane, very gifted, and should not have been allowed near children.
I immediately focus on what it might have been like to be a young boy, at night, alone with Jackson. Thrilling and scary and perhaps painful and definitely confusing and without doubt WRECKING to that child's own future mental health.
How dare people avert their eyes? That upsets me a lot. It's like...be rich, flashy, and interesting enough, and a little child molestation isn't really a big deal.
I don't "get" FANS, in general. It's like they leave their brains and morality behind...
Hops
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And what frightens me is the possibility that his three children will be handed over to the grandparents, which includes Narcississtic, Abusive Grandfather! God help those innocent kids!
Bones
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I've always felt empathy towards MJ because I do believe that his father is a N. Many of the things that Michael did as an adult, I have done myself (to a much lesser extent, of course). I have remained very child-like in certain areas, like buying plush toys, children's books, etc. for myself. My entire childhood was spent under the control of my N mother. I was forced to wear the clothes that she chose for me, play with the toys that she chose for me, and could only listen to the music she chose for me. So when I became an adult, and could suddenly have a Beanie Baby if I wanted one, I would buy it. At 49, I will often buy a toy or candy for myself on impulse, I guess because it allows me to have what I was deprived of - a normal childhood.
Another thing that I've always sort of connected with, are the rumors that have circulated over the years that MJ changed his face because he hated the fact that he llooked like his father. Also, the father apparently picked on him relentlessly for having a big nose. I, myself, have had cosmetic surgery to make myself look less like my mother. I got her looks, and even her voice. The work I've had done is minor, but if I had been well off financially, I probably would have done much more. I've also been coloring my hair for 30 years. I changed it the day I moved out at 18 and never looked back. We both had the same brunette hair, and I changed mine to blonde. I can't live with looking in the mirror and seeing her looking back at me.
Jackson clearly had problems much deeper than the norm for an N child, but he lived the kind of life that only made the problems worse.
As for his children, CNN reported that he had specified, that in the event of his death, the children were to stay with their nanny, who has cared for them since birth. This is probably the best thing for the children, but it won't play out that way. Blood relatives come first, so the courts are likely to award custody to the grandparents. Possibly Debbie Rowe (birth mother), but my guess is that yes, they will be in the home of the very people who emotionally damaged Michael. :(
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I felt for him too, JK, truly -- and how I feel for you wanting to change yourself physically because of your resemblance to your mother. I never gave that consequence of being a child of an N much thought because I resemble my "good parent". How awful those feelings must be that you were driven to such extremes.
Makes me angry for you, and reminds me again how profound his disturbance and self-loathing were.
The only reason I don't feel pain for him is because I am nearly hysterical all the time about the abuse of children, and what the media and the culture tell us about women's and children's bodies somehow being less sacred and less valuable....makes me crazy.
I remember when Woody Allen married his stepdaughter. I turned instantly from a fan to a foe and have never seen a film of his since.
Perhaps I should separate the art from the artist...watched a bit of MJ video today and enjoyed it. But I just don't understand the "worship" of fans. Never did with Elvis', either, and I quite liked him.
hugs
Hops
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(((((JustKathy) Your post touched me. Ami
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I do have to say, that in my case, my efforts to look less like my N mother have made me more self-confident. I like myself better now. Besides a few minor cosmetic things, I've also worked very hard to stay thin, and fit, nice muscle tone, etc. M never took care of herself, always sat around the house eating bon-bons, and look like an old hag by the time she was 30 (some of that may have been her personality disorder taking its toll - her world was so full of hatred ). Anyway, I actually feel better about myself for going through the transformation from the pudgy frumpy teenager that she wanted me to be, into a thin, fit, youthful looking woman. Aside from the benefits of losing the once striking resemblance to M, my body is healthier for it.
In MJ's case, I don't he he was ever able to reach the point where he liked himself, or liked his looks. One surgery wasn't enough. He was SO insecure that he had to keep going. I do think he was trying to "escape" from his past. When you're raised by someone who is an extreme N, you're damaged goods, and his case, the damage was probably too extensive to deal with. Even though he was always surrounded by people, he was truly alone. When you're a huge celebrity, people just tell you what you want to hear.
It seemed that right up until the end, the father had control over him. Immediately after Jackson died, the father was on the scene, took his children, and has been very vocal about the investigation. Even in death, Michael is still being controlled by him.
Interestingly, I grew up in the Hollywood area, and N mother tried to force my younger brother into showbiz as well. He never wanted it, but like Joe Jackson, she was determined that her son become a star. He was forced into private acting schools, figure skating lessons, archery lessons, dialect coaching . . . etc etc. He was also deprived of a normal childhood while she was doing everything she could to make him "marketable." Fortunately, he ended it when he turned 18 and went to college, but he never made it as an actor. MJ was already a superstar by 18, so there was no turning back.
I worked in the talent agency business early on in my career, and one of those agencies represented children. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair. Every single one of the parents were Ns, BIG TIME. I left for an agency that didn't rep children, because I couldn't stand to watch these poor kids being forced into something they didn't want to do just to please Mom. In recent years, many Hollywood talent agencies have dropped their childrens divisions, because the parents are just too difficult to deal with. Stage mothers, especially the pageant moms, are the worst form of narcissism you'll ever see. It's very very sad.
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Dear ((Kathy))
My theory based on my finally starting to heal is that we,as children of N's ,were deprived of mirroring. We have a sense of being different and unacceptable . It is a huge sense of shame.
If someone can see us and mirror a true picture of ourselves, we can change.
We can question the deep,visceral feeling that we are bad(shame) and replace it with a sense that we are human. I am doing this, by the grace of God, and I mean that entirely.
I could relate to Slyvia Plath in the Bell Jar. She was surrounded by walls of glass and she did not know how to get out.
When I hear about a person dying like Michael Jackson, I think of him dying of a broken heart combined with annonymity. Ami
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This is a little-known song that Michael Jackson wrote back in 1995. I may be wrong, but I think it was used in the movie "Free Willy." It's hard to read these lyrics without getting weepy, even more so if you are the child of an N.
Childhood
Written and Composed by Michael Jackson.
Produced by Michael Jackson.
Have you seen my Childhood?
I'm searching for the world that I come from
'Cause I've been looking around
In the lost and found of my heart...
No one understands me
They view it as such strange eccentricities...
'Cause I keep kidding around
Like a child, but pardon me...
People say I'm not okay
'Cause I love such elementary things...
It's been my fate to compensate,
for the Childhood
I've never known...
Have you seen my Childhood?
I'm searching for that wonder in my youth
Like pirates in adventurous dreams,
Of conquest and kings on the throne...
Before you judge me, try hard to love me,
Look within your heart then ask,
Have you seen my Childhood?
People say I'm strange that way
'Cause I love such elementary things,
It's been my fate to compensate,
for the Childhood (Childhood) I've never known...
Have you seen my Childhood?
I'm searching for that wonder in my youth
Like fantastical stories to share
But the dreams I would dare, watch me fly...
Before you judge me, try hard to love me.
The painful youth I've had
Have you seen my Childhood....
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JK,
I bet you're gorgeous. And thanks for the inspiration about fitness. (That would contrast me with my Nmother as well.) I have about 15 pounds (and a few miles) between me and the goal. But the real goal is to consistently take care of myself by eating only super-nutritious foods. When I do that I feel so much better that I want to walk more anyway.
My Dad grew up in old L.A. and used to have curbside lunches with Charlie Chaplin, when they were filming Keystone Kops films on his street. It was magical once...
Thank you for the stories.
Hops
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Hey Hops...
just wanted to say that I don't get "fans" either. The closest I got to that, was Cat Stevens. But maybe that was just a crush - those dark, curly locks of hair and all. And his music was wistfully child-like and playful. But then he converted to Islam... and while I do "get" that there are many peaceful, spiritual aspects to Islam (I still enjoy Sufi stories) he got involved with some radical aspects for a time. It just put me off and seemed to be betraying his own origins of peace, love, and reaching for utopia. I can't quite bring myself to listen to his new album. (gosh, I guess that dates me... it's probably on iTunes).
As for MJ... I was very involved in music about the time the Jackson Five got started. There was always something "wrong" about that group... something that was just under the surface of the glitz. As if they were all trying too hard. Other pop music was blandly inane. And I guess, when Michael and Janet went off on their own... I still felt the same way about their "art". Over-produced or something. (Mask as expression??)
And since I knew early Motown & Blues - I missed the raw, emotional edge of that music in the later re-interpretations. Even folk music and bluegrass seemed more "authentic" than pop.
I wonder how many of us allowed our music to "speak" for us, during our voiceless times? And if that's one of the things behind "fans"?
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Aw shucks, Hops. How kind of you. Nahhhh . . . I'm not gorgeous, but I think I've reached the point where I've now comfortable in my own skin, which is a place that MJ never would have arrived at. He turned himself into a monster, but I think I do get at least some of the reasons why he wanted to change his appearance. As freakish as he looked, I have to wonder how he felt about it . . . if it helped his self esteem at all.
I do have to say that I probably would have been a couch potato if not for my desire to be better than my N parent. I'm not a fitness fanatic, but eat a healthy vegetarian diet and work at not "letting myself go." If anything good has come from being the child of an N, maybe my quest to be better than her will ultimately make me healthier and happier, and that I'll live to be very very OLD (which I know will piss her off from the grave). What a wicked thing to say, but ugh, I mean it. Good luck to you on your own fitness quest. Sounds like you don't have have far to go in reaching your goal. Here's something I never ever heard from my N mother, and I LOVE saying it. I'M PROUD OF YOU. :D
As for the fan worship thing, I really believe that it's a disorder in itself. I can't begin to speculate what might trigger it in someone, but it has to be some kind of illness. Everybody has favorite actors and musicians, but when you start worshiping a celebrity to such extreme levels, that's definitely not normal. Dr. Drew Pinsky just wrote a book about celebrity worship that I was thinking of reading. Not that I'm interested in celebrity worship, but had heard it contained some insight on narcissism. It's called "The mirror effect: how celebrity narcissism is seducing America."
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"I wonder how many of us allowed our music to "speak" for us, during our voiceless times? And if that's one of the things behind "fans"?"
Amber, I just noticed your final sentence there. Yes! I have always been a huge music fan, and have found myself connected to certain songs that relate to my life. Some music I would listen to just because it made me feel good and gave me an escape, but in other cases, a very dark, odd song would come along that I felt spoke for me. There's a song by the band Everclear called "Father of Mine," which is about parental abuse. There's a line in there where he says "I will always be a little weird inside." My husband listens to that song and to him it's just a song, but whenever I hear it, I really feel something. Definitely less voiceless.
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I just saw an article on the Internet that TMZ is saying that the three children are not Michael Jackson's nor Debbie Rowe's biological children. (Wouldn't surprise me if the court orders DNA testing.) Now it makes me think of that song: "Billie Jean"..."the kid is not my son..."
Those poor kids though! They're old enough to pick up on what is going on and, most likely, interacting with other kids who watch TV, etc. and hear about the possibility that egg donors, sperm donors and surrogates were involved for pay. It feels like these kids were bought and sold but never legally adopted.
Bones
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Yeah, there's a dermatologist who has come out the woodwork and is claiming that he was the sperm donor. There was a family law attorney on CNN last night, and she said that by law, a sperm donor gives up all parental rights at the time they provide their "material." So whether or not these claims are true, there won't be any testing. Jackson's name is on the birth certificate, and in the eyes of the law, that's how it will stay.
That said, I agree about how awful it must be for these kids to have to hear this stuff (most of it probably untrue). I have to hope that the grandmother is sheltering them from this as much as possible.
One bit of good news . . . Katherine and Joe Jackson are apparently married on paper only, and have not been living together for at least a decade. CNN says that Katherine Jackson has been living at the Encino home, while Joe Jackson has been living in Las Vegas for the last ten years. So the children will be kept away from that horrible N father, and cared for by Michael's mother, who by all accounts is a really wonderful woman.
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I was wondering if Michael's father is enjoying the attention he is geting because of his son's death. Michael was so much disaproved of him self that he tried to change his face, his color, etc. Probably that cmae from his relationship with the same sex parent.
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I was wondering if Michael's father is enjoying the attention he is geting because of his son's death. Michael was so much disaproved of him self that he tried to change his face, his color, etc. Probably that cmae from his relationship with the same sex parent.
What I've observed, that NFather is trying! He started to brag about his record company and a reporter commented about it being an inappropriate time to be crowing about that! It's like: "Come on, man! Your son has just DIED!!!!"
Bones
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You are so much right bones!!!!!!
God forgive them all.
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What I've observed, that NFather is trying! He started to brag about his record company and a reporter commented about it being an inappropriate time to be crowing about that! It's like: "Come on, man! Your son has just DIED!!!!"
It's disgusting. I can't believe that Joe Jackson is using the media attention to pimp his new record label. He went to the BET awards, and that's all he had to talk about, while sister Janet could barely keep her composure. He's an N to the bone, using his son's death for his own personal gain. Thank goodness the children are with their grandmother.
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It confirmed my opinion of Joe Jackson....he is a JackA$$!!!!!
Bones
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I know this may sound harsh...what about his children and the other children who were victimized by him? Where are their voices? Having been victimized by the NWomb-Donor, her pedophile boyfriend, then the court system, I can identify with the children who were molested, then silenced by his money! I hope those children REGAIN their voices!!!!!
Bones
Hi all:
I am new here, but this post got my attention.
I am ambivalent about Michael Jackson, at this point. I love his music and respect his talent. I also feel he was abused.
Still as more and more stories surface about him, It appears that he himself was often abusive towards people. It appears that he could not break the cycle of his own abuse. Some survivors of Narcissistic abusive parents can, others can't.
Also, several videos of his children professing their love for "Daddy" in a very contrived and controlled way before the camera gave me chills. It just seemed like Jackson was trying too hard to film the image of a perfect family. It does not seem healthy.
Also, the allegations of molestation toward Jackson were never proved or disproved. Therefore, I am profoundly concerned about the damage that could be done to any possible victims of molestation by Jackson, if it is true.
If Jackson did molest children, can you imagine their pain and confusion they will experience by seeing Michael held up as a hero and a philanthropist as well as a victim, without recognition of Jackson's own abusive persona that may have been kept hidden but still existed.
Michael Jackson was a talented but trouble man. I do not believe however that he deserves the type of media attention he is currently bestowed. Basically, before his death he was somewhat of a has been and had not created a new Album that matched thriller, in quite some time. That is why this present seemingly overblown interest in his music, at this point is somewhat confusing. I am wondering if there is a clever marketing machine manipulating the media coverage with the hope of cashing in on Jackson's death.
I think a lot of stories about Jackson will likely surface now that he is gone, and can not hurt anyone through gossip or withholding of career advancement or money. Perhaps than we will get a clearer picture of the real Michael Jackson and not just the picture that he wanted the world to see.
Already, I have seen interviews with a few people who feel they were abused or dismissed unfairly by Jackson, and the resentment in their voices is palpable. Are these people credible? I don't know. Iit's pretty difficult to compete with a touted legend. Still, likely more and more credible people will come forward.
Jackson's black and white thinking though seems apparent in Deepak Chopra's statements that when he tried to warn Michael of the dangers of certain drugs, Jackson simply cut him off, refusing to take his calls until he fell in line and stopped mentioning the danger of the drugs. Who does that to a supportive friend other than a personality disordered person?
Also, the way he totally abandoned his beloved chimp. The chimp he treated like a child and jokingly referred to as his son. The sanctuary owner said unlike other former chimp owners who needed to relinquish their chimps for safety reasons, Jackson never visited his former beloved pet. The sanctuary owner said that chimps have long memories and the chimp would certainly remember Jackson and would have enjoyed a visit from his former owner.
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Very:
talented
abused
twisted
exploited
exploitative
indulged
self-indulgent
self-absorbed
damaged
damaging
I don't think he's a good hero and I am chilled by the mass worship. His death and life were tragic, in ways inspiring, but anyone who saw the vidoes of the children he molested (I believe my gut regardless of whether his lawyers prevailed) should have had their blood run cold.
The culture is sooooooooo sick. We have lost the capacity to choose heroic heroes.
Hops
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I think all the hoopla that is occurring this morning in LA and the world around Michael Jackson is very sobering to say the least. LA is spending $4 million to manage the memorial tribute alone! Imagine all the good that could be done with that money.....
Yes, he was an extraordinarly talented musician.....yes, he was even more troubled and damaging....but to me, to place this artist on a pedestal of this magniture, or any artist for that matter (let alone one who likely died of a self-induced drug addiction not to mention one who was accused of unspeakable acts against children) is just so tragic.
In death, as in life, he is being turned into just another circus spectacle. And a narcissistic one at that. His casket alone was gold-plated and cost $25,000.
Our society has gone way past an age of reason.....How sad that these are the people we place on such a pedestal and reward with such riches and accolades.
Praise his musical achievements...yes....but to pay him a tribute worthy of royalty? In my view, it is indeed misplaced. No wonder an increasing number of our children are growing up to be Ns.
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The culture is sooooooooo sick. We have lost the capacity to choose heroic heroes.
I agree.
It is amazing how society bestows so much wealth and honor on entertainers and sports figures. Many of whom are not very nice people, when we actually take the time to realistically examine their lives, unobstructed by the fog of PR or media hype.
Meanwhile people who really do something heroic are often unnoticed and unrewarded. By my definition a hero is someone who puts their own life at risk to save another, or someone who toils at a job that improves lives in a tangible way, despite receiving only an average salary. Their job is a calling and not something chosen simply for profit.
Oh well, that's my 50 cents, and I will step down from my soap box, now. :lol:
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I really don't know what to make of a perverted lowlife such as MJ, as called by a US fire chief complaining of the deaths and length of (mourning) time plus media (underkill) and fuss given to the fallen heroes of 9/11.
I was 15 when Johnny Cash sang "I Walk The Line" and at my little country farm I heard that and 'loved' him ever since. Now I never knew of his drinking, stealing, drugging, as it was a different time. To me he was just my hero, and STILL is. When did i learn about his unacceptable behaviour? I do not know.
I could be sounding hypocritical here, but Johnny's father blamed him, or Johnny thought so, that he was the reason for his brother's death. Johnny also knew when he was doing 'bad' and tried t0 rectify it.
Did Michael? or was he just N enough to thing that he was indestructible?
I try to tell myself that he was old enough to know better. I tell myself that at age 12, no one could make me say the opposite to what I thought about a good or a bad dad, unless I had been threatened.
As 'bad' as Johnny was, he had the love of June Carter, who saw the goodness in him.
Did anyone see any goodness in MJ, or just his $$$$ to buy love? .........and forgiveness.
I don't know what I ought to think, but I still think of him as an overrated pervert.
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The culture is sooooooooo sick. We have lost the capacity to choose heroic heroes.
Hops
I'm with you. The amount of attention being paid to MJ just amazes me. Didn't his career peak out almost 30 years ago with the "Thriller" album? Since then it's just been a decline into an ongoing series of bizarre behaviors.
One theory I've read claims the public identifies with certain events or people because of a nostalgic connection with a certain time. The height of MJ's popularity came at the end of the economic doldrums of the 70's, and at the beginning of the booming 80's. Maybe the public is mourning a lost past more than MJ specifically. He's kind of symbolic of a more general decline in the society. In 30 years MJ went from being a talented and productive artist to a debt ridden wreck, while the society went from the supposed "morning in America" to our current mess.
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The amount of attention being paid to MJ just amazes me. Didn't his career peak out almost 30 years ago with the "Thriller" album? Since then it's just been a decline into an ongoing series of bizarre behaviors.
One theory I've read claims the public identifies with certain events or people because of a nostalgic connection with a certain time. The height of MJ's popularity came at the end of the economic doldrums of the 70's, and at the beginning of the booming 80's. Maybe the public is mourning a lost past more than MJ specifically. He's kind of symbolic of a more general decline in the society. In 30 years MJ went from being a talented and productive artist to a debt ridden wreck, while the society went from the supposed "morning in America" to our current mess.
Silverlining:
That makes sense.