Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lupita on July 10, 2009, 10:16:45 AM
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We now know, thanks to several wonderful posts, what is it, how to spot it, etc.
My question is:
If anybody can help about it, once you spot it and you are stuck in a job, and you need your job, at least temporarily, etc. how do you deal with it?
Healthy boundaries? How do you build healthy boundaires?
What are hea;thy boundaries?
If anybody has ideas, I would appreciate.
I am in this stage that I know my mother does it. AND i have a couple of coworkers who do it. But I know that I need my job. I have changed jobs too much, now I need to stay, create signority, survive, retire someday, etc.
How do I protect my self? How do I help my self?
I guess, this goes for everybody.
Not more cases, we know if we are here we probably were victims of it. But what to do now?
How to keep my job? it is good job, but I have two very bad coworkers. How to deal with them? etc.
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I think Hops and some others have very good advice about building boundaries.
I'd research it like crazy on the internet and buy a few good books on it, myself.
What a wonderful end of summer project for you, Lupita.
Figuring that out will really help, I think.
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i think everything in life depends on our sense of self. I really do not want to yo-yo with people's viewpoints on me,any more. That is my goal.
I think the way to combat gaslighting is to really know your value separate from the surroundings.
My Aunt told me a few good things. One was that I am as good as anyone else. The other was "You know who you are."
I don't. That is the problem and the solution . Ami
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Hi Lupita,
There are quite a few excellent resources about boundaries under What Helps?, including one you listed:
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5254.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5254.0)
love
Hops
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How did you find it? How can I find my old posts without having to read them all?
I remember two years ago I wrote a post about sometyhing that was very long and everybody said it was good. I would like to see it again but I do not remember how I called it.
Also, I will read my own post that you borught up to light again. But still, I do not know how to survive the upsetness of gaslightning.
Detachment. That is the clue. I thought I was detached but I went home and I realized that I became a kid again and I was not detahced as I thought. So, I am not cured.
Diabetes has no cure. You can control it but not cure it. I guess thiss is the same.
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Hi Lupita,
I just opened What Helps? and scanned the titles of the threads for a page or two.
love,
Hops
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The link was very helpful, Lupita and Hops.
I've today had another difficulty with someone I work with. I can see no options as I have talked through this issues so many times. If it was a personal relationship, it would have been dead in the water years ago. He agrees he has some passive-aggressive issues. But the pattern of his behaviour continues. Oh HOW I try not to get hooked in. And then one final thing sends me over the edge. Actually, it's ridiculously funny if you look at it from the outside. HE is ridiculous.
But I am ridiculous for trusting his word, trusting his promises, for being 'helpless'. This has been going on for 8 years.
If I challenge him, he pretends 'innocence' and accuses me of being 'sarcy'. (He can't even spell!) But it's merely another 'hook'. I see the hooks. That's a big step forward.
I have spent years 'reasonably' talking this through. It's ridiculous that he continues to act out this months-long 'engagement'.
He is busy, he is disorganised, he is forgetful. I try to find excuses for him.
But as the link suggests : If we're to have a working relationship, I need honesty, respect and professionalism
He makes the relationship 'personal' and emotional by not being professional.
I've felt so ashamed about my emotions. But he's the one making it personal. I've treated him with consideration and respect and asked for professionalism in return. And I don't get it.
If I leave, I forfeit everything I've built up over 8 years. I truthfully can't afford to do that. But I have declared that the income isn't worth the misery.
Maybe not, but I'm not prepared for his lack of professionalism to leave me victimised, whether I stay or whether I go.
I have to be bigger, much much bigger so as to look down on him from a great height. I can do that. It's about time I owned my own intellectual capacity, maturity, age, worldly experience, success and talent. (Don't hate me!)
He isn't unkind. He just can't deal with anything that isn't in front of his nose. I should take pity on him.
Except I am 'in need' just now - I am exhausted, too tired, too worn out by life and circumstances and ill health. And I am desperately hurt that during my time of need, he has not 'come up to the plate'. Quite the opposite.
So my promise to myself must be 'self-care' until I am strong again. And this time, nobody will ever be allowed to push me down the slippery slope into mental breakdown again.
He has hit out like a child. He's thrown me a ball and wants me to throw it back. I'm going to choose a different ball. ;-)
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Thank you Hops. I reviewed the ARTICLE AND i RE-discovered new things. As if I never read it before!
Rosenk, that sounds just like the examples that Joyfuldiscerner presents in her posts of gaslighting. Incredible!
I hope that you find the way to overcome it.
To me, I read the articles and I give good adivise to others, but when it comes to my own life, I do not understand hoe to apply it.
I am still thinking how to deal with those two gaslaghters at work. They constantly heat the ears of my boss against me. God help me next year.
It upsets me because it is a behavior very like my mother. Everey thing that is similar to my mother makes me very upset.
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This is the quote that did it for me...
Liz could say to herself, "Wow, this new boss is a piece of work. Well; maybe that smarmy charm has fooled everyone else in this company - but not me!" All of them could decide that, on some basic level, they are willing to live with their gaslighters' disapproval. They know they are good, capable, lovable people, and that's all that matters.
If our three gaslightees were able to take this attitude, there would be no gaslighting. Maybe their gaslighters would still behave badly, but their behavior would no longer have such a pernicious effect. Gaslighting works only when you believe what the gaslighter says and need him to think well of you.
The gaslighter may genuinely...sincerely... Remember: He's being driven by his own needs. Your gaslighter might seem like a strong, powerful man, or he may appear to be an insecure, tantrum-throwing little boy; either way, he feels weak and powerless. To feel powerful and safe, he has to prove that he is right, and he has to get you to agree with him.
Here's my 'take' : Gaslighting works only when you [think you have to] believe what the gaslighter says and think everyone else will, too.
There's an issue of separation here. If I am separate and independent from my colleague then I don't need his approval or co-operation. I will find other ways of ensuring I get the information I need. I will also stop trying to repair the damage he has caused - because he just keeps making new holes in the fabric of my business. I shall start again with a closed shop. I won't try to work *with* him and alongside him.
There's also an issue of realism. So I won't think or believe that he has the same values as I do. I know he doesn't. He believes in keeping people separate; I believe in bringing people together. He believes in ignoring the top layers; I believe in top-down. What's needed is both, working in harmony. That will clearly never happen. He must go his way and I will make MY way EFFECTIVE instead of being a weed and waiting for his approval. He is working from a position of unrecognised fear. I don't need to work from a position of fear.
I gave him lots of information which enabled him to create good relationships with my peeps - he will not reciprocate. I don't know what to do about that. Yet. My issue is about people thinking he's wonderful - when he isn't! I'll just have to suck it up.
I end up allowing (some of) my peeps to think I'm wonderful because I've ended up feeling so needy. It's not an effective way of working because there's a layer of people who probably feel unappreciated and elbowed out. I'll have to work on that but I'm not sure I currently have the resilience and physical energy to do what's needed for them. The best I can do is not resent/fear *them* for resenting *me*!! I ALSO won't allow them to label me in ways which are not appropriate or true. I/They know I/they are good, capable, lovable people, and that's all that matters.
So, forget about the past (deal with the pain), allow him to do what he does best, have no expectations and particularly do not expect him to come good on any promises. NEVER let my peeps suffer at my hands (eg by opting out) because I am angry with *him*. What he does ultimately benefits me. Even if it doesn't benefit *me* personally (if that makes sense).
And I will ignore his 'bad behaviour'. Ooh - that's a toughie.
"We lay folk should strive to use the term "passive-aggressive" more precisely in everyday life. Say for instance that a coworker cheerfully agrees to refrain from a specified uncool act, then does it anyway. Is this passive-aggressive behavior? No, this is being an asshole. Comforting as it can be to pigeonhole our tormentors with off-the-shelf psychiatric diagnoses, sometimes it's best just to call a jerk a jerk." http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2453/what-is-passive-aggressive
Can I tell him he's a jerk? Possibly not. ;-) But I can shout it in my head and remember everyone here would say so, too!!!!!! I imagine us all holding hands and dancing round in a circle, shouting 'he's a jerk, he's a jerk - ho ho and he doesn't even know it'. And then we'll dance again and do it for everyone else in the circle, too!!
Everybody BREATHE! Hhhhhhhhhhaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :-)
PS Yes, all this bad behaviour is like my mother's, too.
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Maybe their gaslighters would still behave badly, but their behavior would no longer have such a pernicious effect. Gaslighting works only when you believe what the gaslighter says and need him to think well of you.
Yes, Ros, I agree. How do I get to the point to not affect me?
I thoguht I was detached, finally. I spent three weeks with my mother and all teh detachment went to the drain. I was a kid spinning my head like crazy.
Same at work.
I think the solution is to develop mechanisms to cope.
how to do it?
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Isn't it about keeping our thoughts in check? Having some thoughts to keep us on the straight and narrow.
Mind you, I'd never stay with my mother for three weeks! That's just asking to be worn down!! The protective mechanism in that instance is just not to be there!! We can't help but revert to the feelings of childhood. The pressure is too great.
At work it's different. We have much more hope for our adult self to relate 'adult to adult' with others, however much they might try to relate from some other position.
Have you ever read up about Transactional Analysis?
My thoughts will be 'IF Gaslighting works only if I [think I have to] believe what the gaslighter says and think everyone else will, too, THEN I simply won't believe what the Gaslighter wants me (and everyone else) to believe. I'll believe what serves ME well in this situation. So I will believe that the Gaslighter is 'a piece of work' and I will continue to do my work professionally in the way I know is right and I won't believe that everyone else is being influenced by him. I will therefore be acting differently to the way he wants me to. And then nobody will be able to believe his sh**. It may take some while but I'm not going to be 'less than' I can be, just so he can be 'right'. I don't have to fight it. I just ignore it. And I will never, never, never allow myself to get hooked in so he can splat me with some patronising condescending rubbish. Talk to the hand cos the heart ain't listening.'
And I'll do it, too!!
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Dear Rose
That was great. It seems to come down to what Psychology calls inner locus of control or outer locus of control. The former is a sense of being driven by the inner self. The latter is letting the outside define who we are.
I have had more of an inner locus of control at other points in my life.
Now, my goal is to get it back. Ami
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Being able to do it with a work colleague is one thing. He's not a bad person and he's not 'out to get me'.
The care home is another thing altogether! The fear they have instilled in me is still overwhelming. They'll stop at nothing to undermine my sense of reality. I feel. Well, that's actually true of the care home manager. I just feel humiliated and foolish in respect of everyone else involved. Going anywhere near the care home would be like putting my hand in the fire. I feel robbed of energy at the thought of going anywhere near it.
And it's not actually true of the care home manager that she'll stop at nothing to undermine my sense of reality. It's what I experience, not what she does.
What IS she trying to do???
I'm far more intelligent than she is. I should be able to beat her hands down. In fact, I can. Intellectually. But she...does evil things back.
She is mistaken in her beliefs. She treats me with contempt. She refuses to treat me professionally. She blanks me out. I speak and she is a brick wall. If I challenge her to answer a question truthfully and straightforwardly, she attacks. I am sent into a spin, dizzy, lose track. She leads me into an argument and I find myself taking a side I have no interest in. It's another smokescreen. She is...defending herself, her position, her staff. It pains me and humiliates me to be treated with contempt. She does that because she truly believes I am mistaken (I think) - but she doesn't say she believes I am mistaken. She ignores what I put in writing. She is ANGRY that I have been asked to write up a care plan by the MHA. She is perhaps angry that he (half) believes me as that would mean she and her staff are mistaken.
She has to fight me because I have already proven that they are wrong. This is not acceptable to them. I think it is possible that I (inadvertently) humiliated her in front of someone else through a letter I wrote which was read alongside a mental health worker. I don't know what the MHW said or how she reacted. I am too frightened to find out. I can't cope with someone else having a go at me, bullying me, messing with my mind.
Well, that's it, isn't it. The care home manager is messing iwth my mind. It seems silly to say so. But she IS messing with my mind. She's all over the place, on the run. But she's not messing with my mind, she's on the run. Hiding behind obfuscation. She's hiding, not messing. Just like my mother. Just like my husband. They have learnt to deal with their fear and confusion by creating smokescreens. Just like my colleague.
But *I* experience it as 'messing with my mind'.
Great analysis but I'm no further forward.
They are wrong but so am I.
I can't blame them cos my mind/emotions cannot cope with their coping mechanisms. I think the book on gaslighting which is quoted here on the forum misses this fact.
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So how did I fix it with my husband and mother?
I made my AS husband read a book about passive-aggressive behaviour. He recognised that such behaviour wasn't right. He agreed on therapy. My intention was that he would gain experience of therapy before we tried marriage guidance so I wouldn't have the 'upper hand' with all the experience I have of therapy. But we decided to part company instead as I just couldn't tolerate the difficulties and confusion any more
With my AS mother, I said to myself OK I 'get' it. You have autism and you come from a place of fear so the next time you sting me (you scorpion to my frog) I will embrace you and say 'You're feeling frightened aren't you'. And it worked. Like a charm. No more rages and arguments and fights. Instant. She said 'you've changed'. I said 'It's because I understand'. End of story.
With my AS son, I got him lots of treatments of all kinds to help him get his mind and body in sync.
I'm not about to embrace the care home manager with love!
But what does this tell me? What keeps nagging at me is that I think it's more than likely the care home manager is also autistic. Other staff there 'misbehave' - there is a culture of 'passive-aggressive' behaviour. But not like the care home manager. Not to that extent.
I fear...because I do not have an experience of people defending me against her. My husband, the social worker - they allowed her to vent at me. Did nothing. They are passive, adaptive people. The MHA vented at me - influenced no doubt by the care home manager. Nobody intervened. I turned him around. He listened. But I had to work hard for it.
My mother tells me she loathes it there with a passion - but nobody who visits her ever gets that impression from her. I am the only one she confides in. But everyone else tells me she's manipulating me. The home can't be THAT desperate to keep her - surely?! They have a waiting list. Ah, they will be happy to throw her out because of me. But not to work with us to find more appropriate support nor to help with the transition. Only war. Not peace.
I'm still no further forward.
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Lupita, In my opinion with co-workers it is very important that you document your work privately, so that if the "gaslighters" try to claim credit for your achievements or blame you for their mistakes, you have it written down who did what. I would not get into arguments with them because it makes you look childish (I did that --- no, I did!). I don't know exactly what your co-workers are doing, but any time you are dealing with sneaky and manipulative people document, document, document. And in the margins of your notes, also document when and if they claim credit for what you did, or blame you unfairly, so that if it ever results in you getting a poor review by your boss, you can talk to your boss privately.
I don't know if you are able to sense who to trust, so this next suggestion entirely depends on whether or not you have confidence in your ability to pick trustworthy people. But it does help if you have an ally, someone with whom you can exchange a "look" when somebody is gaslighting ... do you know what I mean? Let me give you an example --- stupid but aren't most gaslighting situations? Once I was in the kitchen with both my parents, and I mentioned that I like conventionally-baked potatoes better than microwaved potatoes. My mother said, "No you do not, there is no difference between the two." I said, "I didn't say YOU could tell the difference, I said I can tell the difference, and I like oven-baked better." She repeated, "No you do not, there is no difference." At this point I looked at my dad, and we exchanged a "look" and both shrugged our shoulders. What could we say? But we both acknowledged that what she said was bizarre. She could not tell me whether or not I could tell the difference between microwaved and oven-baked! But she could not see that what she said was nonsense. I think this private understanding between my dad and I kept me sane throughout my growing-up years (and maybe it kept him sane too), and I also think it helped me pick a super husband. Now my husband acts as my ally, and if I ever feel crazy after a visit with my mom, he is there to help me sort it out. He has actually been there during some of her most egregious gaslighting episodes, and he helped me keep from blaming myself because he assured me I had not done anything wrong. Believe me, my husband will tell me if he thinks I'm wrong! So, I trust his judgment even when my mom makes me feel crazy.
But with co workers --- just don't forget that you don't have to like them and they don't have to like you, you just have to work peacably together. I know it hurts our feelings when people don't seem to like us, and if you have grown up blaming yourself for everything, it is easy to think it's our fault because they don't like us. But some people don't like anybody! Or, they only like people they can manipulate. If your coworkers are like that, then if they dislike you, you must be doing something right!
I know all this is easier said than done. I have been learning to stand my ground with my mom, and it can be super-painful. However, I sense that she is beginning to be somewhat in awe of me --- I don't want to say afraid of me because I haven't done anything mean to her. I think that is the way my dad kept her in line all these years --- if she got too ridiculous he'd call her on it. Now that he's gone, she turned into the worst version of herself possible --- but she's retreated since I've started standing my ground. I'm sure that there are confrontations to come, but I have a lot more confidence in my own version of reality now, so I think I can make it through.
Hopefully this helps!
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Being able to do it with a work colleague is one thing. He's not a bad person and he's not 'out to get me'.
The care home is another thing altogether! The fear they have instilled in me is still overwhelming. They'll stop at nothing to undermine my sense of reality. I feel. Well, that's actually true of the care home manager. I just feel humiliated and foolish in respect of everyone else involved. Going anywhere near the care home would be like putting my hand in the fire. I feel robbed of energy at the thought of going anywhere near it.
And it's not actually true of the care home manager that she'll stop at nothing to undermine my sense of reality. It's what I experience, not what she does.
What IS she trying to do???
I'm far more intelligent than she is. I should be able to beat her hands down. In fact, I can. Intellectually. But she...does evil things back.
She is mistaken in her beliefs. She treats me with contempt. She refuses to treat me professionally. She blanks me out. I speak and she is a brick wall. If I challenge her to answer a question truthfully and straightforwardly, she attacks. I am sent into a spin, dizzy, lose track. She leads me into an argument and I find myself taking a side I have no interest in. It's another smokescreen. She is...defending herself, her position, her staff. It pains me and humiliates me to be treated with contempt. She does that because she truly believes I am mistaken (I think) - but she doesn't say she believes I am mistaken. She ignores what I put in writing. She is ANGRY that I have been asked to write up a care plan by the MHA. She is perhaps angry that he (half) believes me as that would mean she and her staff are mistaken.
She has to fight me because I have already proven that they are wrong. This is not acceptable to them. I think it is possible that I (inadvertently) humiliated her in front of someone else through a letter I wrote which was read alongside a mental health worker. I don't know what the MHW said or how she reacted. I am too frightened to find out. I can't cope with someone else having a go at me, bullying me, messing with my mind.
Well, that's it, isn't it. The care home manager is messing iwth my mind. It seems silly to say so. But she IS messing with my mind. She's all over the place, on the run. But she's not messing with my mind, she's on the run. Hiding behind obfuscation. She's hiding, not messing. Just like my mother. Just like my husband. They have learnt to deal with their fear and confusion by creating smokescreens. Just like my colleague.
But *I* experience it as 'messing with my mind'.
Great analysis but I'm no further forward.
They are wrong but so am I.
I can't blame them cos my mind/emotions cannot cope with their coping mechanisms. I think the book on gaslighting which is quoted here on the forum misses this fact.
Hello Rosencrantz,
I have been deliberating the care home manager, & trying to put myself in her shoes. If she could not possibly have had any reason to 'have it in for you' then there must be other reasons for her attitudes. Unless of course she's just a garden variety psychopath.
So firstly, can we eliminate the obvious? Is it possible that a type of 'triangulation' has taken place?
Is it possible that your mother has set you up for a difficult time with the care home manager and staff? Perhaps unintentionally, whereby she has made unkind & or untrue comments about you, possibly flippantly, to the manager/staff? Sometimes people who love us still say things they shouldn't behind our backs. Is it possible she has carelessly or even slyly presented herself as a 'victim', or has spoken 'out-of-line' by discussing personal aspects of your joint life that a mother is privvy to, but which should never go any further? Can that be eliminated?
As far as the care home manager is concerned, it's possible you are dealing with typical cold-blooded bureaucratic obfuscation, which as you would probably know, is a highly crafted corporate system implemented to avoid litigation and compensation.
Managers and staff in many industries are constantly updated & trained in the art of obfuscation & mind-games. I've known staff who have been threatened by their superiors to never admit liability, & definitely never admit repsonsibility. Never. Sometimes, even violating the employee/managers own moral standards. Many are 'forced' to conform to the system they work in by having to do such things.
Obfuscation, smoke-screens, crazy-making, blocking, ridiculing & even completely denying the truth is fairly standard business practice, which is probably why ethics is taught less & less at university .
As far as care homes go, to make even the slightest admission can have major legal consequences regarding liability. I imagine in this particular 'care home' this would be an area where they would need to be eternally vigilant, from what you've detailed. Especially when dealing with someone like you, who sounds like no dummy.
As far as your own built-in triggers & how this common (unfortunately) type of business practice 'messes with your mind', I haven't had too much time to think about it, beyond wondering how possible it is for you to be cold-blooded by refusing to take any of it personally, & take a 'business as usual' approach. Practice the art of switching these things 'off' in your head after business hours. It just takes a little practice.
I believe when we find ourselves connected somehow to someone who isn't dealing fairly with us, or is messing with our head, & if we've attempted to address it numerous times without success, then we need to take a very cold-blooded, unemotional, adult, almost deaf-like position ourselves, because I believe in reciprocal relationships.
Until we learn to do this, our internal child will easily panic & even trigger crazy thoughts of shame, self-blame and guilt. When this happens we often aren't able to deal with the real problem out there in the real world. Instead we'll find ourselves caught up, once again, in pain & conflict in our inner-world. Sometimes wandering, lost, even for years, in a heavy fog - on the moors of self-recrimination.
We have to start somewhere. I always find a good place to start is with this - I can never know for sure what is motivating another person to do what they are doing to me. And even though there's really never much point in speculating, we humans still like to chat and mull till think we've worked it all out. So I try not to speculate. And then I move on to this - 'One thing I can know for sure is this, how badly this thing is affecting me'.
If we've explained how badly something someone is doing is affecting us to that person enough times, and yet they continually disregard us, it's time to stop explaining and start planning how to change the situation to suit our needs. This is very adult, & by doing this our internal child can take a well-deserved rest in back-seat while our 'adult' steers our ship into port.
So my final step is 'What am I going to do about it?' And then I set about, very deliberately, machine-like, considerately & humanely to do what is the very best for me.
I incorporate 'considerately and humanely' intentionally, and make sure it is my mantra in times of conflict. It is too easy for our 'wounded child' to feel justified in going overboard when we feel that we've been 'done in' by somebody.
Ultimately, it's all about finally being an adult. And dealing daily as an adult deals, building our own self-respect, self-appreciation and self-reliance along the way.
Lizzie20
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Isn't it about keeping our thoughts in check?
Well PUT, Rose. I should write this on every mirror in my house. Thanks.
And Lizzie...can't tell you how much I appreciate this before going to work tomorrow:
I believe when we find ourselves connected somehow to someone who isn't dealing fairly with us, or is messing with our head, & if we've attempted to address it numerous times without success, then we need to take a very cold-blooded, unemotional, adult, almost deaf-like position ourselves, because I believe in reciprocal relationships.
And this, too:
I try not to speculate. And then I move on to this - 'One thing I can know for sure is this, how badly this thing is affecting me'.
If we've explained how badly something someone is doing is affecting us to that person enough times, and yet they continually disregard us, it's time to stop explaining and start planning how to change the situation to suit our needs. This is very adult, & by doing this our internal child can take a well-deserved rest in back-seat while our 'adult' steers our ship into port.
This, I think, is HUUUUUGE.
I try not to speculate.
That's enormously helpful to me.
thank you!
Hops
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That's amazing, Lizzie20. Wow! This is language I understand and connect with.
Triangulation? Only in the sense that she hides everything from everybody else but shares it all with me (dumps it all on my shoulders). So she gives the appearance of being 'fine'. The social worker knows otherwise but she also prefers the quiet life and if I was the one creating the waves - however right I was - then she agreed with the care home that i should be 'removed'. That was the killer. No, the killer was that I colluded with my own 'death', paid an awful emotional price for putting my mother through hysterical terror in order to do so, and then began to ask questions to finish up a job I'd been asked to do - only the care home wanted me to 'lie down and die'!!! They really, really, really wanted to destroy my credibility and chose my weak points. Under better circumstances I'd have welcomed the opportunity to stand up for what I believed!! But they were actually using smoke screens for their own misbehaviour. It was so very complicated.
I understand about 'not admitting liability'; I can understand that many employees at senior level may be unable to handle it in order to deliver it professionally.
I can recognise that I threatened everything everyone knew about dealing with elderly people (they lump 'old people' together as one 'entity') and they were hugely resistant. Partly because of poor leadership and management. Just like my son's school.
I just assume everyone else knows what I know, even tho once upon a time I didn't know. I assume they want to learn and grow. I've been so preoccupied with fighting my mother's outward nastiness (childishness) for so long with 'tough love' (parent) that I have completely missed this 'innocent child'/understanding parent relationship I try to have with the world. I am at a complete loss as to how to protect myself.
It's taken me a lifetime to become a good 'parent', soothing emotional angst in other people, terrified at the blame which will be heaped upon me for having created the angst in the first place (whether I did or not!). Meanwhile the child in me never grew up. Is this the 'parentified child', I wonder. My teenage son is more worldly-wise than I am. I feel ashamed that he sees me so traumatised by other people. He simply tells me that I'm 'naive', having become convinced by his own experiences that the world is full of sh**-bags. We need to meet in the middle somewhere because not everyone is so wrapped up in their own interests. Oh dear - perhaps we are. Even 'giving' is 'taking'.
Thank you for the golden common sense, the strength, in your reply.
Obfuscation, smoke-screens, crazy-making, blocking, ridiculing & even completely denying the truth is fairly standard business practice
I found it difficult to accept this when I first read it. I don't treat people that way and never would. I spend my time listening. Being open. It's what I strive for. I purposely came to work in the 'real world' many years ago in order not to stay in a closed and protected world of touchy-feely, humanistic, wholistic etc etc in order to grow. (I forgot to go back. ;-) Tho I'm sure I'd have found the same 'unethical' - all-too-human - practices sooner or later even in that 'touchy-feely' world. I know that I would.)
You have given me a new handle on all this.
I was looking after my own interests - my mother's interests, my son's interests - not the interests of the school staff or care home. And I somehow expected they would want to have my mother's and son's interests at heart even tho it means thinking the unthinkable, not least that they may have got it wrong or made mistakes. I wasn't interested in litigation, I just wanted understanding and recognition for my family so they wouldn't feel pain.
I can say clearly that the care home is inadequate for my mother's needs and move her to a new one (which had been my intention until this rucus). Except I never know what SHE is going to do or decide at the last minute so I'm on shifting sands. That's what makes it worse. She could at any moment pull the rug from under me and thereby prove me wrong (and the care home right). And I haven't been feeling strong enough for that final wound. (I now picture myself as the bull at a bullfight with all those spears sticking out of me and my mother producing the final sword to the neck which fells the beast!) In the past, she'd have done that to express her anger at me (because I moved on and left home like normal people do!) no matter that it might actually be against her own interests. She did it on Xmas Day when her most hated nurse engaged me in conversation! We all had a miserable day because she was angry with me and expressed it by being as ornery as possible for the whole day. I actually thought I'd be severely punished in this way for not having been able to be in touch with her for so long. She's veering both ways at the moment!! The wild animal with a thorn in its foot.
So partly my troubles have included fear about how my mother will react to me for having played (as she puts it) into the care home's hands. Although I do occasionally remind myself that I wouldn't be quite so vulnerable if she hadn't spent a lifetime of acting unreasonably towards me. Let alone the gaslighting. I often likened my childhood to a combination of the films Gaslight and Sybil without any recognition as to why.
Apologies to Lupita for possibly having hijacked this thread - I should perhaps have gone back to a couple of threads where I originally started a discussion about these issues (Voiceless Again!) but it flowed unexpectedly from your comments...
lizzie20 - you said (my emphasis) 'One thing I can know for sure is this, how badly this thing is affecting me'...it's time to stop explaining and start planning how to change the situation to suit our needs. This is very adult, & by doing this our internal child can take a well-deserved rest in back-seat while our 'adult' steers our ship into port.
I am so driven to understand. And i seem to find it impossible to find solutions, to 'start planning'. To remain a victim (sharp shamed intake of breath) and be played with is my role in life. It's almost how I show love (eek) and compassion for others. I don't come across as someone like that, I know. You wouldn't look at me and think I was a pushover. I was horrified by some recent 'feedback' from someone else who has been 'playing' with me. It wasn't exactly overt feedback. But I 'heard' it. I was horrified. It hurt my pride so much that it was unbearable to believe. I don't want to know that this is what *they* see. 'There's a bit of the victim in you'. And he referred obliquely to his own part in 'almost' playing with me because he could get a rise out of me. My frustration because I wasn't being listened to or acknowledged drove him to 'play' with me and 'almost' ignore me on purpose. (But that's exactly what WAS happening) Shiver.
Be adult, not frustrated. Never, ever, ever be frustrated. There's a link between being frustrated and being powerless for me. I bang on the door but I don't open it myself! *They* won't open it so I bang even harder until I'm afraid of what might happen if I *do* open it so I'm not sure I want my frustration to end. Even if I wasn't afraid when I first knocked on the door.
But hey - here I am again in 'understanding/analysing' mode.
So my final step is 'What am I going to do about it?' And then I set about, very deliberately, machine-like, considerately & humanely to do what is the very best for me.
Yeah, well - don't much want to be considerate and humane by this stage!! ;-) I want to rage and be completely hysterical and accusatory. But I won't let myself so I stay outside the door, frustrated and getting sick.
I'd like to say that a solution is to pick up the phone and talk to people more but i found with the care home that I was too vulnerable and it was THAT which finished me off. The more I stood my ground and managed to keep to my own path, the more it drove them to behave more badly. But I remind myself that I WAS vulnerable. My mother had been dying, I felt I'd failed her, I had mild concussion (!), I was reminded of the awfulness of my father's death, I had been very ill, my marriage had broken up, I was living on my own in a strange town, my 'best' (and only) friend had betrayed me and then disappeared out of my life, my therapist had a cancer diagnosis and ignored my request to help me find a replacement, my business was sapping my confidence. Too many tipping points.
So I'm going to say there should be 'hope' in here that I can, in better circumstances, find a better way, be more resilient, less prone to being toppled. I have faced similar things and each time (surely) I have become stronger. No, let's be real and awful. I have become weaker and 'it' has become stronger and more visible. But perhaps now 'it' has been outed. I am at the centre. I will never change other people - they don't actually merit my time and effort anyway.
Here's the truth. I am vulnerable. That is so hard to say. My pride hurts (tough!). I am vulnerable to other people's mischievousness and power plays. ALL I can do for now is build boundaries and NEVER let the drawbridge down to invite people in. For goodness sake - I challenge people AND drop the drawbridge at the same time. How insane is that!!! I trust them to do the decent thing with no thought of whether they are likely to or not.
Build boundaries, practice keeping the drawbridge up, watch the world from my parapet instead of encompassing people with my heart and soul, and then see where I can go from there. A new route. The bear hunt song : 'We can't go round it. Oh no, we gotta go through it.' I respect my ex-husband but he isn't a good example. He doesn't do anything - he just stays home. So how do you 'go through it'? Becoming more touchy feely isn't going to do it. Reaching out isn't going to do it. Staying centred - in me, for me - might just help. I don't know what I want - other than to make other people feel hsppy (because then they'll love me!). (Der!) Following through on what I plan to do, when I first think of it might help (remembering that's not the same as a knee-jerk reaction to circumstances)!
Thanks for your help.
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Dear Heartofp, thank you for taking the time to respond. It would be wonderful to have somebody to interchange looks and support. To feel that you are not alone. That would be so helpgul. I can think of one coworker that might do that with me. That would be a nice friend to me. I will try. It is not going to be easy. I dont know. But thank you.
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If we've explained how badly something someone is doing is affecting us to that person enough times, and yet they continually disregard us, it's time to stop explaining and start planning how to change the situation to suit our needs. This is very adult, & by doing this our internal child can take a well-deserved rest in back-seat while our 'adult' steers our ship into port.
this is just great.
I have spoken so many times with the people in the church about the way the choir director treats me and nothing changes that it is about time that I have to amke some changes.
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Hello again Rosencrantz,
I've had time to consider your very interesting post. One area interested me most, & I hope you are fine with me just jumping in with a brief response.
It's a big cross to bear, this 'heal the world, make it a better place' burden that many of us suffer. Even though we may have better ideas on how to make people happy, is it really our business?
If we make a smooth path for others, by encouraging them to walk along our nicely worn path, when will they walk their own path?
And one day, when they realize they've been walking our path, not their own, they'll only resent us for it.
Do I really want to change anybody? Think about it.....seriously. Do I want that 'godlike' responsibility' for someone else's life. If I change you, then by default - I become responsible for you, and what you do. No thank you!
The only person I have a duty to change or reform is myself. If somebody is doing something I don't like, or agree with, I have a multitude of responsible choices available which don't include
forcing them to agree with me or understand my point of view. Well - What a relief! Thats' good to know.
That's what 'resilience' is all about, & why it is such an important characteristic to develop. It's about being adaptable & flexible, & then being confident in stepping up to the plate when confronted with an obstacle or challenge. It's about feeling confident that I can navigate through life's storms by way of my creative powers, & at the same time remain true to my beliefs, and then humanity at large.
I believe this is the main reason why it is so important that I know my boundaries. I need to be comfortable with the knowledge that your problems are not my concern, unless we have agreed that you want my help with 'xyz', & I've agreed to assist you. And the upside of that for you is you too are free - my problems are not your concern unless....(ditto)
Lizzie20
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By the strangest of coincidences, an email arrived in my inbox from my work colleague at the same time as your post Lizzie20. I had challenged his behaviour and then decided it was completely pointless. And he completely avoided any responsibility for his 'misbehaviour'. And I felt sick. And I just want to fall down and cry with the sheer misery of it all (which has to be a stage forward I think as I'd normally just stay strong and impervious which is the way I spent my childhood in order to cope with my mother's behaviour. It's sounds the wrong way round doesn't it? I'm much more vulnerable now. It HAS to be a good thing. Or maybe (also) I'm just worn out with illness and worry.) There is another side which feels total annihilating rage!!!
I want to write some more but I feel completely confused so I'll come back later.
Actually - outside the confusion, I've decided that I'll have to treat him like an employee/servant and think in terms of 'delegating' work to him with all the 'checking in' and accountability that delegating requires en route. It's odd but that's how I had to think of my husband in the finish in order to get along and work together. It goes against MY values to do that and it means feeling a certain amount of contempt for them. So the choice is misery (I'm not OK) or contempt (You're not OK). Sigh. Don't anyone tell me the obvious!!! ;-) If I don't feel contempt, the only other option is 'looking after' the other person's interests (which is also You're not OK but just from a parenting point of view). Sigh! Maybe I do need someone to tell me the obvious.
Why do I want to change people (these particular people)? - because I want to trust them and like them. I don't want to know that they can't be trusted, that they betray my trust, that they hate me so much they have to act out and so afraid to be open and honest that they have to lie to me. Being adult, it seems, means giving up too much : it means giving up the faith that (some) other people will care about me and my needs as much as I (have cared) about them.
I'm so fed up of crying. I do see the links to my mother. I've only recently realised how much she manipulates - no, I still don't really know. But she can be incredibly childishly mean for no good reason and really pull out the stops to make me suffer. I don't think she really considers the suffering, only the need to be mean in order to take revenge for imagined slights. Her perceptions are irrational and inappropriate and I understand her. But quite why she still needs to inflict so much hurt on the one person who pulls out the stops to help her and understand her is a mystery. She doesn't have much sense of consequences. She is totally unpredictable. The frog and the scorpion.
Anyway, the good news is that sanity has been restored. I feel much more 'normal'. But frighteningly vulnerable and dependent on the very few people who do support me. Was I always like this? My mother made the comment that I had always been so shy as a child but then became so strong and that she had put me on a pedestal. I wasn't paying full attention because I thought she was about to go down the well-worn track of rage and blame (because, as an adult, I had weaned myself away from her) but no...'a pedestal' - ?????