Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on August 07, 2009, 11:02:28 AM
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My NM married her history professor after she returned to college at the age of 42. This was her third marriage. The history professor was just about the nicest guy I had ever met, smart, quiet, sophisticated, dignified. Once,I questioned him about why he married my mom, which is another story.
Anyway, I never in a million years thought that I would see my mom's 3 husband, the history professor, act the ways that he acted after his marriage. Sadly, he and my NM are no longer together. What always hurt me the most was watching my mom's 3 husband lose his dignity and act like a fool out of his pure frustration and pain.
N's really do bring out the worst in us.
I've seen my ugliest sides in dealing the N's in my life in the last two years. Especially the NT. I used to be sweet and nonverbal about so much, maintaining my dignity was a priority for me, I knew that no matter what I could always at least act decent. But all that was lost in the last two years and it pains me.
I suppose much of the repressed frustration of dealing with the NT was related to my upbringing. I can look back on my childhood and see a very quiet and gracious child, even in the face of intense abuse and neglect. I wish I could be that way now, I wish I could had the gracious, hopeful inner strength Cinderella had without my voice needing to express so much that is not gracious and hopeful.
I beat myself up but I forget that that is part of the N tactics in life, they want to force their emotional disfigurement on us so that they can, silently, acting in covert aggression, knowing full well how to push our buttons, get us frustrated, losing it, and then point the finger at us saying "look she is the aggressor!"
Does anyone else have a story of how the N has brought out the worst in you?
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I've seen my ugliest sides in dealing the N's in my life in the last two years. Especially the NT. I used to be sweet and nonverbal about so much, maintaining my dignity was a priority for me, I knew that no matter what I could always at least act decent. But all that was lost in the last two years and it pains me.
This speaks volumes to me - especially today. Why is it, that Ns can make us stoop to their level... just to try to get through to them about what they've done to us? As if they cared... you know?
(((((((LISE)))))))))
(((((((everyone else)))))))
But, I'm not going to just give in to the pain and let it overwhelm me - feel it, acknowledge it, yes. But I absolutely refuse - a major boundary - to act like them, or act like my situation is so hopeless, and that I have no choice. There is always choice - not always pleasant - but there is always choice. Since nothing I can do or say or be will change them... I can only honor myself by choosing to not be at that level... not hurting myself to simply vent the feelings that aren't acknowledged by the one causing the pain.
It doesn't seem like much... but maybe it is. It is what I CAN do.
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Since nothing I can do or say or be will change them... I can only honor myself by choosing to not be at that level... not hurting myself to simply vent the feelings that aren't acknowledged by the one causing the pain.
This is a focus point for me today and one that is dredging up intense pain. The pain of what it was like to be an object to be played with, which exactly how the N's treat us. They have no regard for our pain, it is as you say, I can only honor my pain, I can only regard my pain and trying to get the N's to is pointless and a waste of energy that usually just brings out the worst in me.
My whole body feels the intense pain of what it is like to be seen as an object, not a person with feelings.
Ugh....my chest and heart are just in pain, the pain of what it was like to be treated like an object. The pain of being ignored, the pain of being the "bad" one, the pain of feeling like the "bad one" the pain of abandonment and unfulfilled hunger, the wounds are so deep and primal. I want to make them about the present but they are really about the past.
There is an intense fear that is coming up for me, as I keep moving into these wounds, I can feel the fear that the little baby girl in me had about showing and expressing herself...that is why I repressed all of this in the first place, to not be abandoned. Today I am terrified that I am going to be abandoned for my expression of pain, again, because sometimes my expression of my pain is so ugly.
Oh well, I may just be, but I know that I do not have abandon myself - God never abandons me.
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Nope, not today. I'm right there with ya... you're not alone.
How I got here today is too long; not relevant, really. It's important to nail down just what your fear is, I think... because I think you'll find - as I have - that there isn't anything to fear once you KNOW what that fear is. Once you can name it... you can face that pain, too... breathe in and out the reality... and go on - letting that go, too. I'm trying... it's not easy.
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Thanks Amber...this board is amazing for me, writing out this stuff teaches me a lot about myself. I know that we are not to use the board as a substitute for therapy but having the freedom to voice what I need to voice, even if it is repetitious, is so healing; it allows me to see the underlying issues to get to the "what is really going on" stuff, under and into the pain and fears rather than staying with the broken record stuff of NT and whatever...etc.
I want to be free of the past and sometimes the way to do that is to go back in and FULLY experience the past using the present triggers to help understand the story. For me, it is always messy and ugly, but I know that there is good and beauty in me too, especially if I just keep staying with my pain, honoring myself and letting what is be what is.
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I beat myself up but I forget that that is part of the N tactics in life, they want to force their emotional disfigurement on us so that they can, silently, acting in covert aggression, knowing full well how to push our buttons, get us frustrated, losing it, and then point the finger at us saying "look she is the aggressor!"
I was thinking about this, today."They want to force their emotional disfigurement on us." You said it just right----simply and concisely. We were blank slates but took ALL their vile lies b/c we HAD to in order not to be murdered by the N's.
Lise, as I heal I see how much worse my parents were than I ever comprehended. I was like water, a pure liquid, and they put foul sewerage in it.
It was that bad. Our having as many problems as we had was a linear and logical thing. We were forced to eat their lies. We were force fed things that were NOT ours.
We were force fed all types of evil about who we were. Undoing it is the hard thing, of course,but seeing it is the first step.
Ami
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S'OK, Lise... it's not repetitious, if it's what we have to do to finally get past it.
For me, and my situation... I think I've gotten there, today. It all comes down to responsibility... what am I responsible for?
Well.... me, my feelings and my behavior.
I experience pain, when in a situation where someone else is trying to make me responsible for their feelings, actions or responsible for "fixing" them... or when they are projecting on me, what they themselves are doing, but are in self-righteous denial about it. I can stop that kind of pain, by simply realizing that only they are responsible for their own "mess". I can still care that they feel that way... but it's not my job... my mission in life... to show them how to fix it or fix it for them. Everyone has to find their own way. (This situation I've been struggling with for the past few days, is all about my brother.)
Need, for me, is different than pain. Need, I can deal with... I can "go get" or ask for what it is I need. The two are distinct and separate. For me, need doesn't hurt... but I don't always know what it is I need... so there's a lot of trial and error... and mistakes.
I hope you find what it is you need and that the pain goes away.
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I can stop that kind of pain, by simply realizing that only they are responsible for their own "mess".
This is really powerful for me to read...big help. I have carried my mom and other N's in my life as if I am God and their savior, it is up to me to help them or change them, NOT.
Just taking that in is a huge weight off of my shoulders.
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How are you doing, today, Lise? Ami
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Hi Ami,
It is 5:33 AM here, I have been awake for awhile, not sleeping well these days. But I am hopeful despite the pain I have been in; this too shall pass :)
I'm in the old buried grief of baby neglect memories. My inner baby was neglected and denied comfort and empathy, she she was shut out of love and it was excruciating for her. She had no choice but to marinate in baby hostility. However, I, as an adult refuse to be hostile, I just do not want to be or act on any anger in my heart that is related to the wound of neglect...
As I grieve the loss of comfort and empathy from my mom I break down were I am in the grieving process, currently, I am still in the bargaining stage, asking myself "do I really want to let this go, do I really want to give up the desires for comfort and empathy?" The hanging on is painful and I am working to hit another layer of grief. It has only been a week since I uncovered this deeper layer of core wounding and loss yet I have been telling myself that I should be over it and moved on, but our little hearts move much slower than our minds or our NM's introjections.
Ami - I wrote a letter of amends, that letter I was telling you about...finally. I went to Mass yesterday and while there I felt God come over me like a correcting parent, His presence was so strong and forceful in directing me to fully admit my side of the street and clean it up. He was "tough love." After Mass there was nothing that I could think about but writing that letter and moving on. I did it. Afterwards I could feel grace pouring in, as if God was saying "thank you and good girl." Clarity came into my being; I had forgotten how powerful and freeing amends are. I even opened the door for reconciliation, I am doubtful but open to whatever God wants.
I feel a hundred times better, free of the whole drama and put back in grace and faith. Words like patience, hope, faith and charity came back into my world as if God was talking to me, reminding me of what is really important and were my focus should be.
So now I feel like I am going to tackle letting go some more, ouch, but the pain is really always in the resistance to the pain.
Hugs,
Lise
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Ami - how are you doing?
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As I grieve the loss of comfort and empathy from my mom I break down were I am in the grieving process, currently, I am still in the bargaining stage, asking myself "do I really want to let this go, do I really want to give up the desires for comfort and empathy?"
Moving out of anger and bargaining and now moving into sorrow....loss is just loss, it hurts.
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Dear Lise
Why did the history prof. say he married your M? Ami
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He said that he married her because she was honest and real.
To clarify...the mom I write here on the board about is my NM from the past, she is not that N anymore. She sure has her stuff, but from who she was to who she is now is a far stretch.
My mom CAN be honest and real. Then she will relaspe back into old N stuff, just like I do to.
My mom was in 12 step recovery and was honest about herself when she met the H Pro.
I dunno, at least that is what he told me.
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Dear Lise
I am so glad you feel better after the letter of amends. I think it shows that we know what to do in our deepest gut and have to follow it. If we do, it will turn out well.
One of the biggest things the NM did was make us doubt ourselves so badly and think we were BAD so all our perceptions filter through,"I am bad."
Then, we feel that we can't trust ourselves. That ,in a nutshell is what I think happened to us.
To reverse the damage, we have to keep having the courage to follow our hearts, even though it is scary and uncertain.We will make mistakes in judgement but must go on.
If we have a person who can oull us out of the shame spiral, then it is so much easier. Alice Miller calls it an Enlightened Witness.
For me,I am finally growing after many years of being numb(since age 14 when I gave up and took on my M's reality, with the help of my F)
My whole house was supposed to make the N feel good about herself. That was the rule and all that did not fall under the rule was decimated. That meant that I could not have a self that I trusted.
However, now I feel like I am resuming life as I did at 14. Maybe, I am NOT bad. Maybe, I am a flawed, self centered, egocentric human being who has to try to walk in the Spirit .
I have been getting out a lot and it has really been helping.
When I am with a group of people, I think about the Board. If I can manage my way around here, 3D will be fine! XXOOO Ami
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[b"]I am a flawed, self centered, egocentric human being who has to try to walk in the Spirit ."[/b]
Me too.
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You know, Lise. I am seeing s/thing really empowering. It is the opposite of N thinking. N's have to be sp perfect b/c their self is so small and not defined. For me, if I can accept all my "flesh"(ie self centered, petty, egocentric, jealous etc etc) then I can stop cycling in the "I am Bad" thing and just let the Spirit shine through.I don't have to keep negotiating if I am bad within my own head.
Sometime, I can feel that happening. Do you know what I mean? Ami
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Dear Lise
I am so glad you feel better after the letter of amends. I think it shows that we know what to do in our deepest gut and have to follow it. If we do, it will turn out well.
Ami - here is a video of one of my favorite thinkers...
You will appreciate this.... click on the big screen on the page.
http://www.wordonfire.org/
The video is a short one 6 min. It relates to the idea of making an amends to an enemy or to someone who has done you more harm than you have done to them...reaching out and wiping out all harm, giving all a fresh start. Sounds nice doesn't it?
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I listened to his message.He said some wonderful things. I can see why you like him. It seemed like he was talking about Grace vs the Law.
I have had problem when perfectionism got mixed up with I was trying to be too perfect and made myself crazy. So, I am trying to love God first, myself second and then my neighbor.
I really don't know what I am doing half the time . Recovering from the NM's abuse makes it hard to figure things out, for sure.
XXXOOO Ami
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I guess what I am struggling with relates to what you were saying.
I try to give to others. I try to love others and I think I do OK at it,probably just OK. However, it is SO hard to nurture myself. I feel like I MUST punish myself for some reason to keep the world safe.
I am better than before but still loving myself seems so forbidden, on the nature of a crime.
"Who do you think you are?" was the mantra of my life. I feel like I must be loyal to it.
I am hoping I can see the door out of this. I am hoping the door will open and I will see how silly it is to punish myself and I will walk to the other side and look back and not be the same person. Ami
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lise - what a thread. I think part of Nism is getting those around them to do the acting out. It is part of their mask. And man does it describe my life until a year or so ago. Boy did I hate that acting out and I didn't understand it until I began to understand the forces of Nism in my life. I still fall for the bait but only once or twice a year instead of once or twice a day - big difference.
How I got here today is too long; not relevant, really. It's important to nail down just what your fear is, I think... because I think you'll find - as I have - that there isn't anything to fear once you KNOW what that fear is. Once you can name it... you can face that pain, too... breathe in and out the reality... and go on - letting that go, too. I'm trying... it's not easy.
ahh PR yes, yes, yes - not relevant. keep focused.
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I feel like I MUST punish myself for some reason to keep the world safe.
Ami - imagine that you were being spied on, watched by say the Vatican or somewhere that is very dignified for some that dignified group might be celebrities, right?
So image that people see you in your melt downs, your really horrible lashing out Nish melt downs, what would you do? How would you feel?
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Today, at the Messianic Synagogue, the rabbi was talking about Jesus and what He did for us. I felt the love He had for us. This is the key ,I think. Perfect love casts out fear. Most of our problems, Lise, are probably fear--fear we are not OK, fear that we really ARE what our NM's told us we were, fear that we will not be loved, accepted, fear that we will not be able to get "life' right and be failures. I could fill the page with fears.
I could really feel what Jesus did. How we suffered for pure love. I know this is the answer but I fail so in being satisfied with it.
Ami
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Perfect love casts out fear. Most of our problems, Lise, are probably fear--fear we are not OK, fear that we really ARE what our NM's told us we were, fear that we will not be loved, accepted, fear that we will not be able to get "life' right and be failures.
Ami --once again, you hit the nail on the head. It is all about fear. First, though, thank you for the reflection on Christ and how moved you were at your temple.
Today, I'm in mostly frustration but the frustration IS from fear. I have been on unemployment for 3 months but in that time they have only sent me 3 checks and have been delaying in sending me money. It is almost impossible to get through to them, I've sent letters, emails etc, just when I start to think that they will send me a check, optimistically checking my mailbox, I am let down and led more into frustration. It is getting more than I have ever experienced which is teaching me about just how spoiled I have been most of my life. There are people out there in this world who cannot get jobs or healthcare or are denied far worse than my life of comfort. I mean I have a cozy place to live, there is money for me if I need it, I have family, there are plenty of job opportunities for me, if I work hard for them. I have tons of friends, tons of things to do here, I have my health...unless I smoke myself to death anytime soon, then there is my relationship with God....in reality do I need more?
It really is about giving up (an old FOO baby denial of needs wounds) which I was just not ready to do now...my life has been trauma and in the midst of it I want comfort yet that comfort is being denied, sort of...there is still plenty of it, just not on my terms.
Anyways...I threw a tantrum this morning, now I feel like crap because I beat myself up when I have an expression of emotion. I beat myself up for not acting like a 12th century saint...they did not have, ipods, Comcast, unemployment benefits, computers, all the options and choices that we have, they had it easy, at least from my perspective, they had less to give up because there was just less to give up.
Teresa of Avila writes a book The Interior Castle....I'm going to write a book called the Interior Spa, it will be more appropriate for our times, we do not need castles to help defend against the outer world of fears...we need spa time, massages, pedicures, sleep in the sun, mud baths, facials etc...hugs and group therapy where we can pull ourselves out of the wicked shame spirals with story tellings and laughter...how to translate this to an interior experience I have not figured out yet but I better start trying...soon, I am almost out of money.
Lise
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For me, Lise, a wonderful Interior Spa would be to get my NM out of my head and be able to see life from my own belly button and to trust myself.
I feel like the unemployment checks will work out.
We have many blessings but the NM voices must be exorcised for us to have a quality of life, I think. Ami
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Ami,
I'm watching Lupita's thread on the ego....please watch, it relates to exactly this....it is interesting.
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You know, Lise. I am seeing s/thing really empowering. It is the opposite of N thinking. N's have to be sp perfect b/c their self is so small and not defined. For me, if I can accept all my "flesh"(ie self centered, petty, egocentric, jealous etc etc) then I can stop cycling in the "I am Bad" thing and just let the Spirit shine through.I don't have to keep negotiating if I am bad within my own head.
Sometime, I can feel that happening. Do you know what I mean? Ami
Ami -- I did not really respond to this. The answer is yes, I know what you mean. That is a very powerful insight, you are so close to Christ, really doing the work of facing yourself and your past.
"N's have to be sp perfect b/c their self is so small and not defined."
Right, they seek definition of self through perfection and achievement. Jesus does not define us by our worldly achievements or even how perfect we are, He loves us exactly was we are, fully flawed, fully human, fully in complete need of Him. He can see right through us and into our hearts. I think that your letting the spirit shine through is a reflection of the Christ love, letting Him shine through you in the spirit of truth and humility, that humility of facing ones self.
Never had I ever felt so fully complete, even in my flaws and failures, than when I bring all of myself to Christ in prayer, His love fills me up. Just knowing that He wants to heal me, completely, is a reflection that I can spend hours thinking about.
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I am better than before but still loving myself seems so forbidden, on the nature of a crime.
exactly.
Loving myself feels like a crime.
Ami - I was re-reading this old thread to see where I was a week ago in my thought processes. When I read this line I realized why it is so hard for me to love myself, in all my imperfections. It is hard for me to love and accept myself because I feel that loving and accepting me, as I am, in my dysfunction, is wrong. I stil tell myself that in order for me to love myself I need to be perfect, meaning fully saint like loving, in all of my responses. What a load of crap! That is me pointing the finger back at me.
Love,
Lise
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I feel like the unemployment checks will work out.
I'm praying. Being so close to broke has some major spiritual growths towards detachment and faith but it is also terrifying. I am thinking that I may never receive benefits, have to go back to work, which will be OK for me, but without rest and some downtime to process what feels like hell at times I need some money. Yet, I can honestly say that this deprivation has forced me into another letting go and another deepening of God in my life, a deeper realizing that I need very little of the material world to be fully happy in this lifetime.
It is becoming the art of suffering and simplicity. However, if you have spent a life of indulgence and running, then it is not easy to turn the opposite direction. I kick and and scream. Then I beat myself for kicking and screaming. Ugh... Surrender, again.
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Thank you, Gabben!
That confirms something for me.
I can be good..good..good..good.. and then can't take the Nar-person anymore, and I end up losing dignity.
I totally agree. another breath here
Yes, they do bring out the worst in us and then we are remembered for our "worst" not for our best.