Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: English on September 13, 2009, 09:49:48 AM

Title: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 13, 2009, 09:49:48 AM
I was reading John Bradshaw’s book, Home Coming this morning. Then I took a nap.  My cat woke me in the middle of a dream.  I was a member of a group who had narcissistic parents.  At the end there was a funeral for an NM who died.  I don’t think it was my NM, but it could have been.  It might have been someone’s NF.  The NF wanted to be called Herr ??? sycophant (weird, I spelled it write on the tombstone in his dream, but a second ago I wrote it wrong with another n. )  The brain is a curious thing.  I was just reading the book a couple of hours ago.  Then my brain reacts with a strong dream.  In this other world (the dream) I was in an N support group.
I also dreamed I was out on the town with them.  It was about 5:00 pm.  I was supposed to be home to cater to NM, but they all wanted to go out to eat.  I said I needed to call NM and let her know I was coming later.  Then I realized I had a phone, but she didn’t.  She would always use mine.  I decided F her, I’m going. 

Then I think this funeral started.  I think it was just after arriving to the place where everyone lived (in my dream it was the school where I work.)  Down the hall was the funeral.  I guess that was my punishment for saying F her.  I wasn’t there for her when she died in the dream.

I wish I could understand my brain’s reaction to the dream.  I have repressed so much; it feels like nothing’s really there that could bubble up, but then my subconscious reacts this way.  According to Bradshaw’s checklist, I have a lot of work to do.

From ’86-’96 I was in therapy.  But I had a lot going on, not just N issues.  I was also struggling with extremely severe depressions that medication wasn’t helping, so my T was mostly helping me to survive..  Back then there weren’t as many choices as now in medication.  Now I’m very healthy; I take tons of med.s to keep me that way.  I ended up being diagnosed Bipolar II, which is basically depression with very rare week long happy moods.

I have since moved far away and have no access to a T. The closest one is an hour away.  So I’m going to have to deal with this myself.  Luckily my DH is very supportive and is reading the same books I am.  He’s reading Karyl McBride’s book right now.  I’m reading Children of the Self Absorbed and Bradshaw’s book. 

In T, I did have some strong reactions.  When talking about my NF’s abuse I curled up in a ball and couldn’t move or talk for about 10 minutes.  (Not didn’t, couldn’t ). Then I came out of it.  We ended up avoiding talking about NF I think.  At the time neither of my P’s were diagnosed by me as N.  I just knew they were alcoholics.

Somehow it just seems there is nothing in my subconscious because things are buried so deeply that I can’t get to them.  Then I have this dream. Part of my reaction to growing up with NP’s is this hopelessness that I have developed.  A hopelessness that nothing can change.  That I can’t change things in my life and environment.  Since it’s hopeless, why try? It’s hopeless to change my brain and my thinking, my feelings and my reactions.  I guess it’s a feeling of powerlessness I learned growing up;  Can I unlearn it?  I need to get rid of this hopelessness to make progress. Can things really change?
(I am NC with NF and LC with NM)
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: Ami on September 13, 2009, 10:07:33 AM
Dear English
  Your dream is really interesting. Do you think her funeral at your school was her invading your life? Also, you were out of town, away from her, but you and she were so enmeshed that you had the same phone(almost the same means of expression or the same mind). She died when you went away. Maybe, you are afraid down deep that you are responsible for her very life. I have that, I think.
 If *I* don't stay enmeshed with my NM, I  will kill her.
 The tombstone is great. My F is Her Synchophant, too. How clever is the subconscious.
 Please compost my dream analysis of it does not fit.

I want to say something about the hopelessness. That was my main feeling from my childhood. I still have hopelessness about being able to really get over it. I don't want to fake as if  I am over it so I can look good for others. I have been there and done that. I want true healing.
 Thanks for your post, English. It is a pleasure to have you here.                     xxoo   Ami
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 13, 2009, 10:45:38 AM
 Ami,
Thanks for your ideas on this.
She does invade my life all the time.  And EVERYONE was at the funeral except her daughter (me).  So she was invading my life and shaming me because I was late to her funeral.  I probably do feel responsible for her life (I just accidentily typed: lie- iiiiinteresting!) Definitely for her happiness.

About the same mind:  she does tell me what I'm feeling and thinking.  And I'm supposed to think and believe what she does.  In my life if something new comes up and someone asks me what my opinion is (like at work), I don't have one because I don't know what it is supposed to be.  (For older ideas that I've had years to think about, I do have opinions).
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: CB123 on September 13, 2009, 10:46:15 AM
BTW, Welcome English!  I have just spent a while reading the posts on the new members story page.  Wish I could welcome each and every one personally----but I know they will get much warm interaction on the board in the coming months.  This is a good place

Just a thought--I wonder what we say about our perceived worth when we move an hour away from every possible help?  I have done this--essentially made it impossible to get support and insight.  I love the board and I have learned so much from books.  Someone who is not struggling with the depth of depression (bipolar II is no minor thing) that you are might not need the same support.  

My son had some severe emotional problems, probably largely brought on by severe thyroid problems.  (I think that was simply a catalyst for unearthing what the other kids struggle with to--perhaps a severe mercy?)  He needed and still needs, support systems, therapy, meds, etc.  

At any rate, I'm glad you are digging into all the literature that's available these days on NPD.  It has made a world of difference for most of us here to have a name and a world wide community in the form of books.

CB
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: Ami on September 13, 2009, 10:49:26 AM
I know these things ,English , cuz as I am writing the Blackie/Whitie thread, I am seeing them. I have not had my own mind in a way that I could think independently since I was 14.
 I STILL think if I get independent with confidence and a feist spirit I WILL kill her  :shock:                               xxoo  Ami
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: Ami on September 13, 2009, 11:02:49 AM
BTW, Welcome English!  I have just spent a while reading the posts on the new members story page.  Wish I could welcome each and every one personally----but I know they will get much warm interaction on the board in the coming months.  This is a good place

Just a thought--I wonder what we say about our perceived worth when we move an hour away from every possible help?  I have done this--essentially made it impossible to get support and insight.  I love the board and I have learned so much from books.  Someone who is not struggling with the depth of depression (bipolar II is no minor thing) that you are might not need the same support.  

My son had some severe emotional problems, probably largely brought on by severe thyroid problems.  (I think that was simply a catalyst for unearthing what the other kids struggle with to--perhaps a severe mercy?)  He needed and still needs, support systems, therapy, meds, etc.  

At any rate, I'm glad you are digging into all the literature that's available these days on NPD.  It has made a world of difference for most of us here to have a name and a world wide community in the form of books.

CB


 CB,  it sounds like you are blaming her for her problems. *I* would feel icky if someone said that to me.
                      Ami


PS When I was a newcomer, it was hard to post almost anything on the Board. I needed support just for posting my heart out, as she did. I am not saying you meant to be critical. I just put myself in her place as to how I would have felt at that comment .
Not meaning to diss you.
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: HeartofPilgrimage on September 13, 2009, 12:44:14 PM
I think CB's question about what does it say when someone moves an hour away from sources of help is interesting. And it does not necessarily equal "blaming the victim." For example, the answer to that may be, "I put all of the other considerations (job, spouse, children) ahead of what I needed emotionally." And, only the person actually living that life can say whether or not they made the right decision.

English, something stood out for me in the description of your dream. You had a phone (means of communication) and your mother did not ... she always used yours. Which meant that when you actually made a decision to have your own life, you were taking away ... her voice. Sounds like you are afraid that by developing your own voice, you are taking away something from her? That might be true ... she might not have developed other resources for dealing with life ... but ... does she treat you as if you are giving her something infinitely precious and vital? Or does she treat you like something off the bottom of her shoe? And, since when should the children sacrifice the vital part of their lives to prop up parents who presumably have had their chance to live?

IMO, it is not selfish to want to live your own life to the fullest. It is not selfish to want healthy relationships and to be healthy. It's not a choice between selfish and unselfish, it's a choice between being healthy and being a cog in an unhealthy system.

Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 13, 2009, 01:33:08 PM
----She calls; I answer.  Are you wearing the black shirt? 
--What?
--Are you wearing the black shirt again?  Are you depressed?
--What?
--You were wearing a black shirt the last two times I saw you.  Are you depressed?

UGH!!!

She wants me to give her a stained glass I made for Christmas.  I said I want all the ones I’ve made.  I said I MIGHT make her one for Christmas. I don’t know.  I know I don’t want to.  And I don’t want to feed her NS.  I’m not going to.  Maybe I’ll warn her a month ahead that I don’t have time.  I know I should handle this differently, but I feel like I'm just treading water.

I always have such anxiety after talking to her.  She assumed she knew how I felt.  It’s almost like panic.  I HAVE to answer her questions correctly, and I don’t know what her motive is for asking.  And I'm kicking myself.
She wanted to know when I was visiting DS again.  I stupidly told her maybe Christmas.  Now I’m worried she’s going to try to go then too.
Well I've done my talking to her for this week.  I won't answer her calls again until Saturday. Thank you Caller ID.

Re:  moving an hour away.  I HAD to move here 10 years ago to move in with NM.  Before I knew my N situtation (I just realized her problem a month ago.), we had bought a house.  I have now put down roots, have a job I'm happy with, and live in a comfortable house out in the country.  That's all I'm going to say about it.  (Jobs, spouse, home, and children are part of me emotionally.)
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: Ami on September 13, 2009, 01:42:15 PM
----She calls; I answer.  Are you wearing the black shirt? 
--What?
--Are you wearing the black shirt again?  Are you depressed?
--What?
--You were wearing a black shirt the last two times I saw you.  Are you depressed?

UGH!!!

She wants me to give her a stained glass I made for Christmas.  I said I want all the ones I’ve made.  I said I MIGHT make her one for Christmas. I don’t know.  I know I don’t want to.  And I don’t want to feed her NS.  I’m not going to.  Maybe I’ll warn her a month ahead that I don’t have time.  I know I should handle this differently, but I feel like I'm just treading water.

I always have such anxiety after talking to her.  She assumed she knew how I felt.  It’s almost like panic.  I HAVE to answer her questions correctly, and I don’t know what her motive is for asking.  And I'm kicking myself.
She wanted to know when I was visiting DS again.  I stupidly told her maybe Christmas.  Now I’m worried she’s going to try to go then too.
Well I've done my talking to her for this week.  I won't answer her calls again until Saturday. Thank you Caller ID.

Re:  moving an hour away.  I HAD to move here 10 years ago to move in with NM.  Before I knew my N situtation (I just realized her problem a month ago.), we had bought a house.  I have now put down roots, have a job I'm happy with, and live in a comfortable house out in the country.  That's all I'm going to say about it.  (Jobs, spouse, home, and children are part of me emotionally.)

 
It is a really long road to getting un enmeshed,((English)) I have been on it for 3 years( the Board) and have tried my whole life to be myself, a separate person whom I can love.
 It is  a marathon.
 I think you are doing very well !!!                                xxxxxoooo Ami
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 13, 2009, 01:53:04 PM
(((((((Ami))))))) Thanks
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 14, 2009, 04:10:00 AM
The entire rest of the day I felt bad, miserable just after a 2 miinute conversation with NM.  Regardless of my reactions and dreams, I AM going to read Bradshaw's Home Coming!!!  This is ridiculous feeling bad after talking to my MOTHER who should be caring, comfortable, safe, loving.  I DON"T WANT TO FEEL BAD ANYMORE AFTER TALKING TO NM!!!  I want to feel comfortable in my own skin.  I want to feel safe, secure, calm, loved.  If she's not gonna do it, then I am. 

I'm not going to be on the defensive everytime I talk to NM.  I'm sick of it.  I'm sick of worrying about HER feelings above mine.  I placate her, make her feel OK or good; I feel miserable, but OOOO I made her feel fine.  This is crazy, crazy, crazy. THIS IS MY LIFE!  She has hers to live; she can't use mine too. It's mine, mine, mine...says me the 2 year old.  She may have given birth to me.  That does not make me hers.  Having a child is giving the universe a new life.  It's giving that child life.  A parent is there to help this new life in the world.  A parent is their for the child until the child can function on her own.  A child is not there to be a cheerleader for the parent.  She is not there to feed the NS.  I feel like I was created just to cheer her on.  To serve HER.  So many times she has said, but I'm your MOTHER.  I don't know what she thinks a mother is but it is not what she thinks. 

I want unconditional love.  I get that from DS and DH.  That feels like standing under a warm waterfall; sitting in my favorite chair drinking coffee; petting my cat; laughing; sitting on the beach watching the waves; being comfortable in the moment. :D

One memory from my teenagehood:  sitting on the floor watching TV with my big toes tense, pointed at me, constantly.  I guess I did this all the time because my brother would tease me about it.  This memory stands out because it shows the tension in my body at home, probably the rest of me-shoulders, arms were tense too.  It was a walking on eggshells feeling; it was a feeling of always being on the defensive because a bomb was going to drop any minute.
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: CB123 on September 14, 2009, 06:50:07 AM
English,

Of course family is important to you....didnt mean to minimize that.

We, here on the board, have been severely wounded by the N's in our lives... and those wounds have affected us deeply in the ways we relate to people, the way we view ourselves.  But being voiceless is not the same as bipolar II.  I have lived an hour away from mental health resources with a son who needed them.  I was definitely speaking out of concern, not judgement--and acknowledging that what you are dealing with is different from what the rest of us are dealing with.

I wish you the very best and I'm glad you are here with us.

CB
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: CB123 on September 14, 2009, 06:55:38 AM
Ami,

I know that my comment would make you feel icky.  I know you.  I have been very careful not to comment on your threads because I dont want you to feel icky.  We have been through this so many times over the years.

I wish you could see my body language, to know this is said in the gentlest possible way: I am not your mother, Ami.  Really. 

But anyway, I might as well tell you that from my standpoint, you seem to be making some real strides in peeling off the pain that envelopes you.  I am thrilled for you.

Let me respond to the other posters without commenting on how it makes you feel.  We deserve the opportunity to build our own relationships, and it will take the pressure off you to take care of other people.  You dont have to comment to this post...I just wanted you to know that I am rooting for you.

CB
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 14, 2009, 07:06:56 AM
CB
My Bipolar is perfectly under control.  I have been stable for years.  I see a Dr. 2.5 hours away every three months.  What I was talking about is my NM and my learned helplessness and hopelessness, my fears.  I can't miss work for 3 or 4 hours a week to drive to a T.  My bipolar is chemical  and is well treated.  I am NOT depressed.  I really know what that feels like. 

I appreciate your concern.   But I DO have an NM and NF.  I'm sorry I even mentioned the bipolar.  It's really irrelevant to this discussion.
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: Ami on September 14, 2009, 09:01:58 AM
Ami,

I know that my comment would make you feel icky.  I know you.  I have been very careful not to comment on your threads because I dont want you to feel icky.  We have been through this so many times over the years.

I wish you could see my body language, to know this is said in the gentlest possible way: I am not your mother, Ami.  Really.  

But anyway, I might as well tell you that from my standpoint, you seem to be making some real strides in peeling off the pain that envelopes you.  I am thrilled for you.

Let me respond to the other posters without commenting on how it makes you feel.  We deserve the opportunity to build our own relationships, and it will take the pressure off you to take care of other people.  You dont have to comment to this post...I just wanted you to know that I am rooting for you.

CB

 Dear CB
   If a newcomer spills her guts and we all know how scary that it, why would you ask an`"off balance feeling" type of question?Was it for you or  her?She felt put on the spot  as far as I can see by her responses. Maybe ,you should examine YOUR need to be the better one, the one who knows the answers, who must point the way for YOUR own purposes not for the good of the person.Maybe you need to be right and better than and that is part of it. We ALL have issues such as these I have MUCHO issues as you know.I am not judging or speaking with rancor even though it may sound that way. I try to look at myself the best I can and am open to others insights.
 I appreciate  your kind words.                              Ami
 


I guess the bottom line ,for me, is if I see a newcomer treated in a way that would make her feel unwelcome, defensive or attacked, I will say my peace. I guess the only way I will stop is if you get a No Contact with me.
If you want one, let me know .
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: Hopalong on September 14, 2009, 09:17:27 AM
Hi English,
I remember so many years where I felt my strength drain from my legs when my NM called me...

How often do you talk to her on the phone? I am wondering how you define LC.

For me, I began to realize it was like hypnosis.

When I was anxious and weak, just letting her voice spiral into my head wasn't good for me.

I did things like learn to screen calls and talk to her less frequently and then only when I felt strong,
set a timer so calls never slid past a few minutes, and created diversions for myself so I didn't listen hard and deeply
and get "re-hynotized" by her Narrative.

She was "controlling the narration". I had to stop it.

Does any of that ring a bell with your situation?

Hops
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 14, 2009, 10:37:34 AM
Hopalong,

For me LC is only answering her calls only on the weekend.  Until recently I always answered the phone, but I got caller ID so I would know when she is calling.  I went to her house a week  ago for her birthday. I don't plan to see her again until Thanksgiving.  I know she'll try to manipulate me to see her sooner.  I get off the phone as quickly as I can and only answer in yes, no, OK answers.  But I feel hurt and angry everytime I talk to her or see her.  I like the timer idea.
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: Hopalong on September 14, 2009, 11:39:40 AM
Makes me sad to think of her infecting your weekends.
That's very precious time, if you're working during the week...

I used to do a "preemptive" call to NM. Maybe a Thursday or Friday,
just before dinner. (That worked: 5 minutes, then "Got to get dinner
now, I'll talk to you next week.")

I practiced (took me ages to learn how to do it w/o anxiety) a lot.
But over time, I got so I could be assertive. Courteous but never
abandoning myself to her control, even over the phone. So I'd call HER
maybe on a Friday early evening and say something like:

I'm calling you because I am not going to be available this weekend
for a phone conversation. Let's talk for a few minutes now. (Then she'd sulk
and jab, demand to know why, etc.) I'd have to do a lot of "Well I don't have an explanation
to give you about that but I'm glad to check in now..." and she'd sulk and jab and ask. I just kept
at it. Doing the assertiveness thing. Making calm assertive statements. Not losing my
courtesy.

The key seemed to be, repeating myself like a robot. "I don't have an explanation to
give you about that but I'm checking in now" and if I had to keep saying that exactly in the same
words, 4 or 5 times, without anger or anxiety in my voice, just neutral and courteous, then
that's what I did. I was present to her, but I would not stop being present to myself.

Eventually, she realized I had taken back control and would not allow her to demand
obedience, when it came to my time on the phone.

I started caring about myself. Noticing that, as you describe, talking to her was a sour toxic
thing I had to recover from. And refusing to allow it on weekends or late in the evening.
I would no longer give her my "downtime". (I wasn't NC, so this was my effort at LC.)

One trick I noticed--I wonder if your Nmother does this too--was that when I would say
in plain English, "Mom, I've got to go now, time to ___ [whatever, and it didn't have to be
real]" -- she would pause and then pick up her narrative as though I had not spoken
of my need to get off the phone. It was as though it hadn't happened. (Of course. It was
my need. Not hers.)

So I learned to repeat that too, just once. Even if it meant interrupting her mid-sentence.
(Hell, NMom had no sentences, only long paragraphs.) The trick that helped me was to
be Zennn-voiced: neutral, pleasant, but do it anyway. I even a couple times cut her off
in a gentle tone, repeated my "I've got to hang up now, like I said, but I'll talk to you next week
bye-Mom" (all run together) and then I WOULD HANG UP GENTLY. Not in anger, but just because I'd
said that was what I needed to do, repeated it once, and explained why I was doing it.

Sometime I would say, "Mom, I will have to be hanging up in one minute even if we're
mid-sentence, just wanted to give you a heads-up" (all calm, gentle voiced)...and then
I would DO it.

It was a lot of work but practicing assertiveness with her over phone stuff was incredibly
empowering for me.

I feel for you and I know what the Ncalls are like.

Courage!

Hops
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 14, 2009, 01:24:56 PM
Thanks Hop,
Great advice.  I'll have to practice this.
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 15, 2009, 04:03:22 AM
Hops,
What do you do when she asks "WHY?"  or" ARE YOU MAD AT ME?"  Especially the second one. I always say "no," but I am am am.  For my whole life.  I always say, "No." I don't know how else to respond.  If I said, "Yes," then it would be a really long conversation with crying and anything else she can come up with.  How does one answer the "Are you mad at me," question?

Somehow she has trained me to be afraid of why questions.  Even in my real life, I am afraid of why questions from others.  Actually, I'm afraid of all questions from everyone.  I'm not sure why.  I guess I'm afraid of their reactions? ?? Giving the CORRECT response?

Also I am going to try calling her on say, Thursday evening for the week because when I talked to her Sunday it DID ruin the whole day.  I'd like anyone's advice.  It's time to start setting up boundaries. And sticking to them.
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 15, 2009, 05:41:23 AM
I just started an exercise in the John Bradshaw book where you write about what you know about your parents upbringing and what you know or remember? about your infancy.  I realized there is only ONE picture of me as an infant.  It is a portrait of my parents, me, and a grandfather.  There are NO other pictures of me.  There is a photo of the table I was born on.  So right there what does that mean?  NM wanted a picture of where SHE gave birth.  There are no cute little pictures of the newborn, sleeping quietly in the crib, being held by mother, no first birthday pictures.  What does it say about the wounded NM?  Hmmm...
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: Hopalong on September 15, 2009, 10:13:21 AM
This is great, English. Your anticipating the general script, that is.

I believe the key answer to your question is that you have a right to decline to answer HER question.


Just because she says "WHY?" does not obligate you to open up and be vulnerable to her by answering it. (You become vulnerable if you answer Yes, because that opens the can o' worms and emotion; you are equally vulnerable if you answer No, because she has compelled a lie, which sets you psychically against yourself, perhaps making you feel weak and sick. Third option: You can decline to answer.

In childhood "courtesy training" we are taught to answer the questions (honestly) of adults, parents, teachers, and authority figures. All well and good to get schools to run efficiently, say. But as an adult child of a Nparent, you are no longer a victim, you are an ADULT, and you can make self-protective choices.

Here's some fantasy dialogue, which is just general examples of being assertive (including about whether you choose to reply to a painful probing question. You're under no obligation to participate or cooperate in causing yourself pain.)

WHY?
This is new, Mom, and it may seem strange. But I've realized it isn't positive for me to be analysing my emotions, so I'm not going to go into that. It's really cool outside, and I can tell fall is here...
[change subject, expect jabs/sulks/resistance].
Repeat: I've realized it isn't positive for me to be analysing my emotions, so I'm not going to go into that. What are you making for dinner?
[change subject, expect jabs/sulks/resistance/silent treatment]
Repeat: Well Mom, I'm fixing ____ for dinner or going ____ or planning ____ or about to ____ or have to ____. I'll talk to you again next week...Goodbye.

ARE YOU MAD AT ME? I've realized analysing my decisions isn't positive for me, so I'm not going to be doing that. But I'm glad we're checking in now. Have you been shopping? How's your hip?

The rest of your private answer is, "analysing my emotions/decisions with you isn't positive/healthy for me". But that's the thing about boundaries. There is no requirement that you share your thoughts with her. If she guesses this, she guesses it.

Your assertiveness and boundary-setting don't have to be secret or slickly done to give you strength.

They just have to be practiced.

It'll be awkward as hell for a while. Maybe a long while. But you really can assert your right to:

talk
not talk
set a time limit
answer a question
NOT answer a question
accept the subject/s she introduces
decline to accept the subject/s she introduces
introduce your own subject
change your mind
continue the conversation
end the conversation
calmly disconnect even if she's mid-sentence

(I may have overdone it, but my D feels completely entitled to not answer my questions. She'll say, if I ask something that causes her discomfort, "I don't have anything more I want to say about that" or "I don't want to talk about that with you now" and I've learned to say, Okay. And respect it. And although in earlier years I'd feel all hurt, etc., I don't any more. I feel...clear. Boundaries are okay with me when someone else sets them too.) She trained me!

In terms of me setting such conversational boundaries with Nmother, the beauty was, as I practiced, she didn't magically become a nonN. But she did gradually (if grudgingly or at times histrionically) begin to respect my boundaries. That's not respect as in, I agree with your reasoning, that's respect as in, I'd better go along with this because that's just the way it is now.

hope some of that helps,

Hops
Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: HeartofPilgrimage on September 15, 2009, 01:16:29 PM
Somehow, this thread conjured up the inimitable Forrest Gump phrase, said in his slow Alabama accent ... "... and that's all I have to say about that ..."

English, can you turn the question back onto her, and ask, "Why do you ask that? What makes you think I'm mad at you?" Let her do the explaining. Then hopefully you can use her answer to set your boundaries! If she says, "Well, you wouldn't tell me about XYZ," you could say, "I'm not ready to discuss that ..." or some other non-committal answer.  I just figure if somebody has enough gall to act badly and then challenge us to defend our fully justifiable feelings about their behavior, they can darn well be the ones to justify themselves!

Also, somewhere else on this forum somebody noted that their feelings seemed to be DELAYED. I notice this a lot. When a N in my life is offensive, at first I won't feel anything, but later I will get angry. I don't know what other people think about my tactics --- but when I realize that the N has been offensive, even though it was yesterday or whenever, I have begun to confront them. I will call them back, or e mail them back, or whatever --- whenever it hits me how offensive they have been. I guess this only works with certain Ns, not everybody. But the Ns in my life can't handle being confronted. Usually there is not a showdown or anything because when I confront THEM (as opposed to them being on the offensive), they are totally chicken. Of course, then they get subversive and stab me in the back in a sneaky way, but that's a whole other post!

I also found out something kind of funny, in this process of confronting Ns about their behavior. My mother got sarcastic with me, and said very nastily, "Well! I guess I'll have to be VERY CAREFUL in what I say to my own daughter from now on!" To which I very sweetly replied, "Thank you, Mom, I really appreciate you doing that." She had no idea what to say to that. :)

Title: Re: Hopelessness
Post by: English on September 16, 2009, 05:05:54 AM
Hey Hops, I'm going to practice this. Thank you, thank you for your suggestions.
 

"Just because she says "WHY?" does not obligate you to open up and be vulnerable to her by answering it. (You become vulnerable if you answer Yes, because that opens the can o' worms and emotion; you are equally vulnerable if you answer No, because she has compelled a lie, which sets you psychically against yourself, perhaps making you feel weak and sick. Third option: You can decline to answer.

In childhood "courtesy training" we are taught to answer the questions (honestly) of adults, parents, teachers, and authority figures. All well and good to get schools to run efficiently, say. But as an adult child of a Nparent, you are no longer a victim, you are an ADULT, and you can make self-protective choices.

Here's some fantasy dialogue, which is just general examples of being assertive (including about whether you choose to reply to a painful probing question. You're under no obligation to participate or cooperate in causing yourself pain.)

WHY?
This is new, Mom, and it may seem strange. But I've realized it isn't positive for me to be analysing my emotions, so I'm not going to go into that. It's really cool outside, and I can tell fall is here...
[change subject, expect jabs/sulks/resistance].
Repeat: I've realized it isn't positive for me to be analysing my emotions, so I'm not going to go into that. What are you making for dinner?
[change subject, expect jabs/sulks/resistance/silent treatment]
Repeat: Well Mom, I'm fixing ____ for dinner or going ____ or planning ____ or about to ____ or have to ____. I'll talk to you again next week...Goodbye.

ARE YOU MAD AT ME? I've realized analysing my decisions isn't positive for me, so I'm not going to be doing that. But I'm glad we're checking in now. Have you been shopping? How's your hip?

The rest of your private answer is, "analysing my emotions/decisions with you isn't positive/healthy for me". But that's the thing about boundaries. There is no requirement that you share your thoughts with her. If she guesses this, she guesses it. "

Thanks, I really needed to know what I "can and can't" do.  From your list I can tell I don't know how to use boundaries.  I always feel like I HAVe  to answer a question, discuss the subject she introduces, answer WHY questions.  I think I'll go with my gut and if it feels uncomfortable, then don't discuss it. Unless it's in a required situation llike Boss-Employee I will give myself permission to not answer questions or discuss feelings.

It's like in my mind; I don't have any rights, but everyone else does.I  The whole world has rights, but I must be subserviant.

Heart of Pilgrimage,
I thought I was the only one who had delayed feelings.  It's like they slowly, slowly start to bubble up; then they come up faster; finally they rush up as if fromthe middle of nowhere.

Regarding assertiveness,
One thing I have recently been successful at is telling her "No" without an explanation.  Of course she comes back with, "Are you mad at me?"  Then I say no.  that part I have to work on.  You both have given me great advice and a lot to think about.

P.S.  I really have to figure out how to quote people. :D