Hopelessness

[English]

I was reading John Bradshaw’s book, Home Coming this morning. Then I took a nap.  My cat woke me in the middle of a dream.  I was a member of a group who had narcissistic parents.  At the end there was a funeral for an NM who died.  I don’t think it was my NM, but it could have been.  It might have been someone’s NF.  The NF wanted to be called Herr ??? sycophant (weird, I spelled it write on the tombstone in his dream, but a second ago I wrote it wrong with another n. )  The brain is a curious thing.  I was just reading the book a couple of hours ago.  Then my brain reacts with a strong dream.  In this other world (the dream) I was in an N support group.
I also dreamed I was out on the town with them.  It was about 5:00 pm.  I was supposed to be home to cater to NM, but they all wanted to go out to eat.  I said I needed to call NM and let her know I was coming later.  Then I realized I had a phone, but she didn’t.  She would always use mine.  I decided F her, I’m going. 

Then I think this funeral started.  I think it was just after arriving to the place where everyone lived (in my dream it was the school where I work.)  Down the hall was the funeral.  I guess that was my punishment for saying F her.  I wasn’t there for her when she died in the dream.

I wish I could understand my brain’s reaction to the dream.  I have repressed so much; it feels like nothing’s really there that could bubble up, but then my subconscious reacts this way.  According to Bradshaw’s checklist, I have a lot of work to do.

From ’86-’96 I was in therapy.  But I had a lot going on, not just N issues.  I was also struggling with extremely severe depressions that medication wasn’t helping, so my T was mostly helping me to survive..  Back then there weren’t as many choices as now in medication.  Now I’m very healthy; I take tons of med.s to keep me that way.  I ended up being diagnosed Bipolar II, which is basically depression with very rare week long happy moods.

I have since moved far away and have no access to a T. The closest one is an hour away.  So I’m going to have to deal with this myself.  Luckily my DH is very supportive and is reading the same books I am.  He’s reading Karyl McBride’s book right now.  I’m reading Children of the Self Absorbed and Bradshaw’s book. 

In T, I did have some strong reactions.  When talking about my NF’s abuse I curled up in a ball and couldn’t move or talk for about 10 minutes.  (Not didn’t, couldn’t ). Then I came out of it.  We ended up avoiding talking about NF I think.  At the time neither of my P’s were diagnosed by me as N.  I just knew they were alcoholics.

Somehow it just seems there is nothing in my subconscious because things are buried so deeply that I can’t get to them.  Then I have this dream. Part of my reaction to growing up with NP’s is this hopelessness that I have developed.  A hopelessness that nothing can change.  That I can’t change things in my life and environment.  Since it’s hopeless, why try? It’s hopeless to change my brain and my thinking, my feelings and my reactions.  I guess it’s a feeling of powerlessness I learned growing up;  Can I unlearn it?  I need to get rid of this hopelessness to make progress. Can things really change?
(I am NC with NF and LC with NM)

[Ami]

Dear English
  Your dream is really interesting. Do you think her funeral at your school was her invading your life? Also, you were out of town, away from her, but you and she were so enmeshed that you had the same phone(almost the same means of expression or the same mind). She died when you went away. Maybe, you are afraid down deep that you are responsible for her very life. I have that, I think.
 If *I* don't stay enmeshed with my NM, I  will kill her.
 The tombstone is great. My F is Her Synchophant, too. How clever is the subconscious.
 Please compost my dream analysis of it does not fit.

I want to say something about the hopelessness. That was my main feeling from my childhood. I still have hopelessness about being able to really get over it. I don't want to fake as if  I am over it so I can look good for others. I have been there and done that. I want true healing.
 Thanks for your post, English. It is a pleasure to have you here.                     xxoo   Ami

[English]

 Ami,
Thanks for your ideas on this.
She does invade my life all the time.  And EVERYONE was at the funeral except her daughter (me).  So she was invading my life and shaming me because I was late to her funeral.  I probably do feel responsible for her life (I just accidentily typed: lie- iiiiinteresting!) Definitely for her happiness.

About the same mind:  she does tell me what I'm feeling and thinking.  And I'm supposed to think and believe what she does.  In my life if something new comes up and someone asks me what my opinion is (like at work), I don't have one because I don't know what it is supposed to be.  (For older ideas that I've had years to think about, I do have opinions).

[CB123]

BTW, Welcome English!  I have just spent a while reading the posts on the new members story page.  Wish I could welcome each and every one personally----but I know they will get much warm interaction on the board in the coming months.  This is a good place

Just a thought--I wonder what we say about our perceived worth when we move an hour away from every possible help?  I have done this--essentially made it impossible to get support and insight.  I love the board and I have learned so much from books.  Someone who is not struggling with the depth of depression (bipolar II is no minor thing) that you are might not need the same support.  

My son had some severe emotional problems, probably largely brought on by severe thyroid problems.  (I think that was simply a catalyst for unearthing what the other kids struggle with to--perhaps a severe mercy?)  He needed and still needs, support systems, therapy, meds, etc.  

At any rate, I'm glad you are digging into all the literature that's available these days on NPD.  It has made a world of difference for most of us here to have a name and a world wide community in the form of books.

CB

[Ami]

I know these things ,English , cuz as I am writing the Blackie/Whitie thread, I am seeing them. I have not had my own mind in a way that I could think independently since I was 14.
 I STILL think if I get independent with confidence and a feist spirit I WILL kill her                                 xxoo  Ami

[Ami]

BTW, Welcome English!  I have just spent a while reading the posts on the new members story page.  Wish I could welcome each and every one personally----but I know they will get much warm interaction on the board in the coming months.  This is a good place

Just a thought--I wonder what we say about our perceived worth when we move an hour away from every possible help?  I have done this--essentially made it impossible to get support and insight.  I love the board and I have learned so much from books.  Someone who is not struggling with the depth of depression (bipolar II is no minor thing) that you are might not need the same support.  

My son had some severe emotional problems, probably largely brought on by severe thyroid problems.  (I think that was simply a catalyst for unearthing what the other kids struggle with to--perhaps a severe mercy?)  He needed and still needs, support systems, therapy, meds, etc.  

At any rate, I'm glad you are digging into all the literature that's available these days on NPD.  It has made a world of difference for most of us here to have a name and a world wide community in the form of books.

CB

 CB,  it sounds like you are blaming her for her problems. *I* would feel icky if someone said that to me.
                      Ami


PS When I was a newcomer, it was hard to post almost anything on the Board. I needed support just for posting my heart out, as she did. I am not saying you meant to be critical. I just put myself in her place as to how I would have felt at that comment .
Not meaning to diss you.

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I think CB's question about what does it say when someone moves an hour away from sources of help is interesting. And it does not necessarily equal "blaming the victim." For example, the answer to that may be, "I put all of the other considerations (job, spouse, children) ahead of what I needed emotionally." And, only the person actually living that life can say whether or not they made the right decision.

English, something stood out for me in the description of your dream. You had a phone (means of communication) and your mother did not ... she always used yours. Which meant that when you actually made a decision to have your own life, you were taking away ... her voice. Sounds like you are afraid that by developing your own voice, you are taking away something from her? That might be true ... she might not have developed other resources for dealing with life ... but ... does she treat you as if you are giving her something infinitely precious and vital? Or does she treat you like something off the bottom of her shoe? And, since when should the children sacrifice the vital part of their lives to prop up parents who presumably have had their chance to live?

IMO, it is not selfish to want to live your own life to the fullest. It is not selfish to want healthy relationships and to be healthy. It's not a choice between selfish and unselfish, it's a choice between being healthy and being a cog in an unhealthy system.

[English]

----She calls; I answer.  Are you wearing the black shirt? 
--What?
--Are you wearing the black shirt again?  Are you depressed?
--What?
--You were wearing a black shirt the last two times I saw you.  Are you depressed?

UGH!!!

She wants me to give her a stained glass I made for Christmas.  I said I want all the ones I’ve made.  I said I MIGHT make her one for Christmas. I don’t know.  I know I don’t want to.  And I don’t want to feed her NS.  I’m not going to.  Maybe I’ll warn her a month ahead that I don’t have time.  I know I should handle this differently, but I feel like I'm just treading water.

I always have such anxiety after talking to her.  She assumed she knew how I felt.  It’s almost like panic.  I HAVE to answer her questions correctly, and I don’t know what her motive is for asking.  And I'm kicking myself.
She wanted to know when I was visiting DS again.  I stupidly told her maybe Christmas.  Now I’m worried she’s going to try to go then too.
Well I've done my talking to her for this week.  I won't answer her calls again until Saturday. Thank you Caller ID.

Re:  moving an hour away.  I HAD to move here 10 years ago to move in with NM.  Before I knew my N situtation (I just realized her problem a month ago.), we had bought a house.  I have now put down roots, have a job I'm happy with, and live in a comfortable house out in the country.  That's all I'm going to say about it.  (Jobs, spouse, home, and children are part of me emotionally.)

[Ami]

----She calls; I answer.  Are you wearing the black shirt? 
--What?
--Are you wearing the black shirt again?  Are you depressed?
--What?
--You were wearing a black shirt the last two times I saw you.  Are you depressed?

UGH!!!

She wants me to give her a stained glass I made for Christmas.  I said I want all the ones I’ve made.  I said I MIGHT make her one for Christmas. I don’t know.  I know I don’t want to.  And I don’t want to feed her NS.  I’m not going to.  Maybe I’ll warn her a month ahead that I don’t have time.  I know I should handle this differently, but I feel like I'm just treading water.

I always have such anxiety after talking to her.  She assumed she knew how I felt.  It’s almost like panic.  I HAVE to answer her questions correctly, and I don’t know what her motive is for asking.  And I'm kicking myself.
She wanted to know when I was visiting DS again.  I stupidly told her maybe Christmas.  Now I’m worried she’s going to try to go then too.
Well I've done my talking to her for this week.  I won't answer her calls again until Saturday. Thank you Caller ID.

Re:  moving an hour away.  I HAD to move here 10 years ago to move in with NM.  Before I knew my N situtation (I just realized her problem a month ago.), we had bought a house.  I have now put down roots, have a job I'm happy with, and live in a comfortable house out in the country.  That's all I'm going to say about it.  (Jobs, spouse, home, and children are part of me emotionally.)

 
It is a really long road to getting un enmeshed,((English)) I have been on it for 3 years( the Board) and have tried my whole life to be myself, a separate person whom I can love.
 It is  a marathon.
 I think you are doing very well !!!                                xxxxxoooo Ami

[English]

(((((((Ami))))))) Thanks

[English]

The entire rest of the day I felt bad, miserable just after a 2 miinute conversation with NM.  Regardless of my reactions and dreams, I AM going to read Bradshaw's Home Coming!!!  This is ridiculous feeling bad after talking to my MOTHER who should be caring, comfortable, safe, loving.  I DON"T WANT TO FEEL BAD ANYMORE AFTER TALKING TO NM!!!  I want to feel comfortable in my own skin.  I want to feel safe, secure, calm, loved.  If she's not gonna do it, then I am. 

I'm not going to be on the defensive everytime I talk to NM.  I'm sick of it.  I'm sick of worrying about HER feelings above mine.  I placate her, make her feel OK or good; I feel miserable, but OOOO I made her feel fine.  This is crazy, crazy, crazy. THIS IS MY LIFE!  She has hers to live; she can't use mine too. It's mine, mine, mine...says me the 2 year old.  She may have given birth to me.  That does not make me hers.  Having a child is giving the universe a new life.  It's giving that child life.  A parent is there to help this new life in the world.  A parent is their for the child until the child can function on her own.  A child is not there to be a cheerleader for the parent.  She is not there to feed the NS.  I feel like I was created just to cheer her on.  To serve HER.  So many times she has said, but I'm your MOTHER.  I don't know what she thinks a mother is but it is not what she thinks. 

I want unconditional love.  I get that from DS and DH.  That feels like standing under a warm waterfall; sitting in my favorite chair drinking coffee; petting my cat; laughing; sitting on the beach watching the waves; being comfortable in the moment.

One memory from my teenagehood:  sitting on the floor watching TV with my big toes tense, pointed at me, constantly.  I guess I did this all the time because my brother would tease me about it.  This memory stands out because it shows the tension in my body at home, probably the rest of me-shoulders, arms were tense too.  It was a walking on eggshells feeling; it was a feeling of always being on the defensive because a bomb was going to drop any minute.

[CB123]

English,

Of course family is important to you....didnt mean to minimize that.

We, here on the board, have been severely wounded by the N's in our lives... and those wounds have affected us deeply in the ways we relate to people, the way we view ourselves.  But being voiceless is not the same as bipolar II.  I have lived an hour away from mental health resources with a son who needed them.  I was definitely speaking out of concern, not judgement--and acknowledging that what you are dealing with is different from what the rest of us are dealing with.

I wish you the very best and I'm glad you are here with us.

CB

[CB123]

Ami,

I know that my comment would make you feel icky.  I know you.  I have been very careful not to comment on your threads because I dont want you to feel icky.  We have been through this so many times over the years.

I wish you could see my body language, to know this is said in the gentlest possible way: I am not your mother, Ami.  Really. 

But anyway, I might as well tell you that from my standpoint, you seem to be making some real strides in peeling off the pain that envelopes you.  I am thrilled for you.

Let me respond to the other posters without commenting on how it makes you feel.  We deserve the opportunity to build our own relationships, and it will take the pressure off you to take care of other people.  You dont have to comment to this post...I just wanted you to know that I am rooting for you.

CB

[English]

CB
My Bipolar is perfectly under control.  I have been stable for years.  I see a Dr. 2.5 hours away every three months.  What I was talking about is my NM and my learned helplessness and hopelessness, my fears.  I can't miss work for 3 or 4 hours a week to drive to a T.  My bipolar is chemical  and is well treated.  I am NOT depressed.  I really know what that feels like. 

I appreciate your concern.   But I DO have an NM and NF.  I'm sorry I even mentioned the bipolar.  It's really irrelevant to this discussion.

[Ami]

Ami,

I know that my comment would make you feel icky.  I know you.  I have been very careful not to comment on your threads because I dont want you to feel icky.  We have been through this so many times over the years.

I wish you could see my body language, to know this is said in the gentlest possible way: I am not your mother, Ami.  Really.  

But anyway, I might as well tell you that from my standpoint, you seem to be making some real strides in peeling off the pain that envelopes you.  I am thrilled for you.

Let me respond to the other posters without commenting on how it makes you feel.  We deserve the opportunity to build our own relationships, and it will take the pressure off you to take care of other people.  You dont have to comment to this post...I just wanted you to know that I am rooting for you.

CB

 Dear CB
   If a newcomer spills her guts and we all know how scary that it, why would you ask an`"off balance feeling" type of question?Was it for you or  her?She felt put on the spot  as far as I can see by her responses. Maybe ,you should examine YOUR need to be the better one, the one who knows the answers, who must point the way for YOUR own purposes not for the good of the person.Maybe you need to be right and better than and that is part of it. We ALL have issues such as these I have MUCHO issues as you know.I am not judging or speaking with rancor even though it may sound that way. I try to look at myself the best I can and am open to others insights.
 I appreciate  your kind words.                              Ami
 


I guess the bottom line ,for me, is if I see a newcomer treated in a way that would make her feel unwelcome, defensive or attacked, I will say my peace. I guess the only way I will stop is if you get a No Contact with me.
If you want one, let me know .