Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: CB123 on October 26, 2009, 06:26:35 AM
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Ales said on another thread that it was a mistake to ask anyone to change on the board. Is that true? Is it a rule, spoken or unspoken, that we not ask anyone to change? If that rule does exist, are there exceptions?
Ales, I know you are fairly new to the board--how did you know that this was expected? Was it spoken or did you pick it up from us when you got here?
CB
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Sometimes people tell people to change cuz they want to bully them. Sometimes people tell people to change cuz they want to help them.
If it is to bully, it is unacceptable. If it is to help, it is good.
Sometimes, only the person can feel if it is bullying. Sometimes,other people can feel it and are afraid and intimidated to post.
In any case, there should not be any bullying on a Voiceless Board.
Maybe bullying was not the issue but telling s/one to change does open up subtleties such as being able to bully them under the GUISE of telling them to change.
Everything is intent, really, and intent cannot be measured in a linear way.I think Dr G's presence has helped to make the Board a safer place. Also, some of the new rules where you have to identify a person by name when you comment.We all have issues and we are all in a small space so our FOO patterns are bound to want to take over. We have to watch for that as best as we can.
Ami
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CB,
I didn't reread the rules but I try to suggest possible outcomes and ask questions of someone rather than telling them they are wrong or need to change. In my case it is about working on my need to judge. My mother judged constantly, so I try to learn from someone's behavior, and share my assumptions about where it might take them by brainstorming many solutions. Often they respond in a way that enlightens me or I see that they are just not at a point of "inner" understanding or readiness to embrace what could be a better way. The only suggestions that might help them are not about change but about handling their current circumstance using the resources they possess at the moment. You can't really "jump start" someone unless your suggestion is the next step in their path.
For many years I taught rough inner city kids. I learned that even very bad behavior often had its origin in a proper response to a very very bad situation. By denouncing the behavior I could inadvertently denounce the person I was trying to help. I came to realize that they might still need these defenses in their current situation and I could only show them that their were other ways of being, not decide for them about when to change the tactic.
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Hi - Ami gave a great answer about using change to bully others. Its insulting to some to ask/expect/tell someone to change because its subtly saying you are not acceptable as you are, or it denies your feelings as not acceptable and valued which is a underlying problem for almost all of us on the board. Thats one of the big reasons.
Probably growing up as a kid, my issue was not about improving my grades or doing better but about my NM accepting me - and she never did. Its much easier to improve when you feel accepted because it takes the pressure off and allows you to do what you are capable of or at least try knowing you'll be fine either way. But when you are not accepted either way, its manifests as helplessness.
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One of the first coda principles is that you can't really change anyone else except yourself.
Even if you would ask someone to change, by whose standards would you ask them to do so?
Think also of the other principle that each person is where they need to be right now. I honestly believe this even if sometimes it's hard to take.
P
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Hey CB....
I think it's OK to suggest change in what people DO. For instance, if I have a habit of calling you "Hon" - and it grates on your nerves... you could ask me to change that. That's in no way a judgement about me - or you, in that example. Again, you'd be asking for me to change my behavior toward you... and I believe that's something we do, in a polite society. We accommodate those kinds of requests on a daily basis.
In general - on the board, I think we can bring up the subject of change with each other... in the form of a question, or suggestion... with the understanding that the party in question has the right to say that it's not interesting, doesn't apply, or just misses the boat totally - in other words - both parties are respectful of each other's boundaries. That doesn't meet the criteria of "bullying", in my book.
It's our level of trust in and knowledge of each other - and security in our own boundaries - that will allow that kind of honesty with each other. Obviously, it's a completely different situation if it involves a complete stranger... suggesting change at a very personal level. Each situation will be just a bit different... I think.
I missed the thread that sparked this question - so I'm trying to speak in generalities - not to any specific situation or people.
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I agree with Persephone, you cannot change anyone but yourself.
However, I also agree with PhoenixRising, you can ask someone to modify their behaviour towards you.
For instance, at the school where I teach, if a child says something racist I will tell them their views are unacceptable and they are not allowed to voice them. I know that I cannot make them change, but I can challenge the behaviour.
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I think when you have N damage you either become more of a victim or more of a persecutor. Dr G talks about this in his essays.
I think this is the basic theme behind Board fights.
This should NOT be the place that people play out old FOO(family or origin) patterns but a place to share and heal the old patterns. This should be THE safe place we didn't have not a repeat of what we did have.
I know this is an ideal and cannot work perfectly as life does not work perfectly but I think it is a goal. Ami
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Hi CB,
I do not believe there's any such rule here. I've read Doc G's list, it's not there.
I think people need to trust themselves, speak as honestly as they know how, and not take things personally.
Microscopes on others' ways of expressing themselves only constrict thought.
Learning healthy assertiveness means you get to practice boundaries here, which I like. IOW, if someone asked me the "wrong" kind of question, then that's an opportunity for me to decide:
--do I want to respond
--do I want to connect or explain or go further
--do I want to step back (it's okay to let a question "hang", too)
--do I want to assert myself
--do I know how to say No
--do I want to consider something about myself or another in a new light
On and on. Likewise, I think it's good to allow each person to find their own way to what's tolerated, embraced, frowned on, etc.
Nobody needs to "run the board" or Be the Teacher.
We're all teachers.
I can't think of anything I want to ask anybody at this moment to change, but I don't feel afraid to use some phrase like that if it feels right at the time...
I can trust. Like you, for example. If you asked me to change something, I know I'd stop and give it a truly heartfelt consideration, because I respect you so much. Same's true, for me, of many others.
love to you,
Hops
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Thanks to all for your answers.
The big reason I asked the question is because it is this thought that no one should be asked to change, that is at the root of the abuse that I (we?) suffered. For my situation, it was the very heart of the voicelessness that I experienced.
The person who is being asked to change may say they are being bullied (N's often say that), but they either use that as a smoke screen--or they may be truly so damaged that anything but total acceptance of them exactly as they are is too threatening to contemplate. Then the non-N may have no other recourse than to just withdraw from the relationship altogether. With an N, if you say there is a problem, you ARE the problem.
It sounds reasonable to say that you should only ask someone to change if they are actually being morally wrong--racist, etc. But how many of us would have loved to have our mother listen when we talked? We would have loved to say: I need you to change in this area--and not be met a discussion of us and our bad behavior for saying anything. If we truly believe that everyone should be accepted right where they are at the moment, we wouldnt be struggling right now with the wreckage of relationships that we are. We don't REALLY believe that our mothers/husbands/sisters/brothers/friends should be accepted just as they are. We want them to change. We ask them to change. We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us.
I don;t want to see bullying on the board any more than anyone else does. But I wonder if part of the healing from voicelessness involves losing the fear that is in each of us that we will say it the wrong way or start an explosion if we arent careful. My question on this thread had to do with whether or not we were saying something that dhad caused d a new member to walk on eggshells.
I felt an alarm go off when Ales made a point of coming back and posting again to assure her reader that she was not asking for any change. I do that, too. And it occurred to me that we have been carefully trained to walk on eggshells and we do it so well. I just hhope that posters here know that there is a middle ground between being a bully and saying nothing. The N's in our livves were very black and white and they have not encouraged us to look at subtle differences.
Just something to think about.
CB
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Thanks to all for your answers.
The big reason I asked the question is because it is this thought that no one should be asked to change, that is at the root of the abuse that I (we?) suffered. For my situation, it was the very heart of the voicelessness that I experienced.
The person who is being asked to change may say they are being bullied (N's often say that), but they either use that as a smoke screen--or they may be truly so damaged that anything but total acceptance of them exactly as they are is too threatening to contemplate. Then the non-N may have no other recourse than to just withdraw from the relationship altogether. With an N, if you say there is a problem, you ARE the problem.
It sounds reasonable to say that you should only ask someone to change if they are actually being morally wrong--racist, etc. But how many of us would have loved to have our mother listen when we talked? We would have loved to say: I need you to change in this area--and not be met a discussion of us and our bad behavior for saying anything. If we truly believe that everyone should be accepted right where they are at the moment, we wouldnt be struggling right now with the wreckage of relationships that we are. We don't REALLY believe that our mothers/husbands/sisters/brothers/friends should be accepted just as they are. We want them to change. We ask them to change. We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us.
I don;t want to see bullying on the board any more than anyone else does. But I wonder if part of the healing from voicelessness involves losing the fear that is in each of us that we will say it the wrong way or start an explosion if we arent careful. My question on this thread had to do with whether or not we were saying something that dhad caused d a new member to walk on eggshells.
I felt an alarm go off when Ales made a point of coming back and posting again to assure her reader that she was not asking for any change. I do that, too. And it occurred to me that we have been carefully trained to walk on eggshells and we do it so well. I just hhope that posters here know that there is a middle ground between being a bully and saying nothing. The N's in our livves were very black and white and they have not encouraged us to look at subtle differences.
Just something to think about.
CB
Thanks for sharing, CB. Ami
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CB, this is such an excellent question - and your background explanation behind it is VERY important, I think.
Especially the point, about the murkiness of expections, needs, wants for change in another. On the one hand, we were considered to be in the wrong about our needs/expectations and change/adaption was expected of us - and that involved many intensely painful emotions: shame, humiliation, not good enough...
... part of my healing process was to realize that this could be turned around to expect exactly the same thing from my FOO, in the name of "boundaries". That's only part of the process; it's not an end result. It feels good for those of us, who were denied this as children, to spend some time in this phase - powerful, self-affirming, sane. In this phase, we practice boundaries - and asking for change from others. There are a lot of things - some self-evident, some subtle - to learn about ourselves and others, in this work.
Eventually, though, I found that even this phase had to be let go. Putting the "shoe on the other foot" was, for me, still being stuck in the old FOO-programming of relational power-games. Case in point - dealing with business tasks/decisions with my brother. It serves absolutely no useful purpose for me to expect him to be what he is not; know about things he's never had to consider before; nor - ultimately - blame him for my discomfort, anger, frustration about his idiosyncrasies or lack of knowledge and business skills. After all - he is also a victim of the same FOO-crap. And he is a very different - almost complete opposite - type of person than I am. Asking him to change anything other than behavior is fruitless; and even that isn't always possible for him.
So I have to learn to let go of justification for anger and frustration (blame, in other words); my unspoken (sometimes unconscious) request for him to change and become what he is not. Instead I focus on concrete results... call me within 24 hrs... tell me what you want to do; what is your decsion... otherwise I end up in a tangled ball of emotional explosives - doing me no good with the physical effects of that stress; or risking a stalemate... or worse, a walking away and unilateral action... which is a very negative, confusing result for the business.
This is my work in progess, right now. And I've got many opportunities to practice - and not just with my brother! :D This sort of IS the dysfunction in my relational style... and essentially, it's a limitation; a restriction of experience of others - I'm finding that outside of that limitation are many ways to move beyond the oppositional/blame cycle.
I started discovering that HERE... by allowing people to tell me what they saw about me; what I could change about how I acted, thought, and felt... and trusting that the criticisms were meant to help; given lovingly. Hey - I'm still working on some of those TOO...
tee-hee!
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This is my work in progess, right now. And I've got many opportunities to practice - and not just with my brother! :D This sort of IS the dysfunction in my relational style... and essentially, it's a limitation; a restriction of experience of others - I'm finding that outside of that limitation are many ways to move beyond the oppositional/blame cycle. .
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You have made a lot of progress, Amber! Ami
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Great post, CB; like a mini essay of N recovery.
I particularly liked these:
"With an N, if you say there is a problem, you ARE the problem."
Oh yeah!! Amen!! Put it on a bumper sticker.
"And it occurred to me that we have been carefully trained to walk on eggshells and we do it so well. "
Oh yes!!
However, regarding this thought:
"We want them to change. We ask them to change. We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us."
Yes, we do want them to change, but, if I have learned ANYTHING in this N recovery odessey, it's this: You can't change anyone except yourself. Wanting another person to change is a false flag. We can't change others, we can only change ourselves, so wanting another to change is a fantasy.
I think that once we change, then there's 3 possibilities:
1. The other person doesn't change, but, since we've changed ourselves, we see them differently, we have accepted them & the relationship begins to exist on a new & different level. So, we can stay in relationship with them, but it's a different kind of relationship since expectations have changed. We've accepted them as they are, warts & all.
or
2. The other person doesn't change, but, since we've changed ourselves, we realize that we cannot accept them & so the relationship ends.
or
3. Each person changes & we each accept the other. This is rather unlikely with an N.
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Great post, CB; like a mini essay of N recovery.
I particularly liked these:
"With an N, if you say there is a problem, you ARE the problem."
Oh yeah!! Amen!! Put it on a bumper sticker.
"And it occurred to me that we have been carefully trained to walk on eggshells and we do it so well. "
Oh yes!!
However, regarding this thought:
"We want them to change. We ask them to change. We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us."
Yes, we do want them to change, but, if I have learned ANYTHING in this N recovery odessey, it's this: You can't change anyone except yourself. Wanting another person to change is a false flag. We can't change others, we can only change ourselves, so wanting another to change is a fantasy.
I think that once we change, then there's 3 possibilities:
1. The other person doesn't change, but, since we've changed ourselves, we see them differently, we have accepted them & the relationship begins to exist on a new & different level. So, we can stay in relationship with them, but it's a different kind of relationship since expectations have changed. We've accepted them as they are, warts & all.
or
2. The other person doesn't change, but, since we've changed ourselves, we realize that we cannot accept them & so the relationship ends.
or
3. Each person changes & we each accept the other. This is rather unlikely with an N.
Great post(( Ann)) ! xxooo Ami
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I think one subtext here for me is that there's a difference between asking and expecting, between requesting and requiring. As most kids of Ns know, there really isn't any way that "expecting" or "requiring" compels anybody else to do anything, unless you are a parent or hold economic or some other power over them.
But I liked it when a therapist once told me:
It's always healthy to ask for what you want, as long as you release the outcome.
So if I have wishes/hopes/yearnings for someone to change their behavior in some way, whether to benefit them, myself, or us both...I can always ask for that change. Nothing unhealthy or wrong about it.
The key is to, while asking, release the outcome, knowing/accepting even embracing, that it's not in my control. It's not magic.
Just asking the question is an accomplishment sometimes. To expect, because Mighty Me Has Spoken or opined, that something will result, that'd be a mistake.
It's just the asking, sometimes, that aligns me with health and hopefulness and right intention. Not expecting a particular result.
It was always excellent for me to specifically set boundaries and even to request specific behavior change from Nmom. For her to respond in an open, mature way was the exception 999999% of the time. But it still felt good and right to ask because I was not walking on eggs, I was speaking because a person who feels welcome in the world will speak up without fear, and it was good practicing messaging myself.
Hops
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"We want them to change. We ask them to change. We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us."
Looking at this again:
We want
We ask
We need
Yes, these are 3 very different things, different desires.
Asking is cool. Shows boundaries. We merely ask. Maybe we'll get what we desire, maybe not, but, we let go of the outcome.
Wanting seems OK, too, but, sometimes "wanting" sets me up for disappointment. What if I don't get what I want? How will I then feel? Probably disappointed. I know what I want the outcome to be & I'll feel disappointed if I don't get it.
Needing: This is the tricky one that can often lead to disappointment: ie: we need them to change, but they don't change. That can lead to suffering. Do I really "need" them to change? Probably not. To me, needing implies that I am invested in the outcome, so if the outcome doesn't please me, I'm hurt.
For me, it's helpful to dissect these 3 things & then self reflect.
Hi Ami!
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This is a great thread. Thanks for starting it, CB ! Ami
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You're right, Ami. This did turn into a great thread--but mostly because of where everyone went with it...I was asking a different question!
Ann, I agree about the needing part. We don't need anyone to change to be okay. I usually use the stuff that "needs" to be changed in someone else, to examine what that brings up in me. Usually, it points out something that I need to look at.
The needing to change that I was referring to, was the need ing to change in order to remain in relationship. Those of us who have had to go to NC, first went through all the pain and angst of trying for forestall what soon become obviously inevitable. We needed for the other person to change, or we knew that the relationship would no longer be possible. When you care for someone (as we did our N's), that's gutwrenching.
I think Hops might've gotten closer to what I was referring to in my original post: the habit we may have developed as co-N's of bracketing what we say with a disclaimer that we arent really asking for anything. I have seen myself and others insert that into conversations, and I think it is what we have learned to do to forestall a scene from our N. A kind of verbal foot-shuffling that assures the other person that they are not being threatened. It's just something that I have been thinking about as an aspect of voicelessness. We have so many.
Thanks for the discussion...much of what we have talked about has been in the area of emotional boundaries, and I think that that is probably the foundational issue for most of us.
CB
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I agree with ann3 about dissecting and reflecting upon our wants/needs/desires.
It can really help emotionally if you realise something that you thought was a need is actually a desire. This has been part of my healing process for some time, and I often have discussions with my husband about needs and wants as the feedback is helpful.
About 30 years ago when I was first going out with the boy who would be my husband, my future father-in-law taught me that it is OK to say no to a request and to expect that from other people too. He was always very matter of fact and upfront, never any hidden agenda.
We are so conditioned to say yes to every demand made of us that it takes a long time to learn to do otherwise. I think that now at 49 I am actually able to do this.
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A kind of verbal foot-shuffling that assures the other person that they are not being threatened.
ah yes, CB! I STILL catch myself doing this, more than I would like. I think with non-Ns, it creates additional confusion. They don't understand our walking on eggshells; and in my case, I know I avoid asking straight out... so the other person usually wonders a.) what am I trying to say? and b.) why am I so afraid to say/ask it?
I wonder if this is the old pattern of trying to control/manage the other's response, somewhat - the "not being threatened" that you mentioned... because, deep-down, I haven't released the outcome or because I have a real need that I can't meet myself (or so I believe) - but that I fear will be put-down or dismissed by the "other". Self-defense required that I manage - was responsbile for - my mom's emotions; in fact, she required this of me.
I think it takes a very long time to undo that habit, and to feel "OK" undoing it. I know it's easier for me, in situations where I don't know the other person and they don't know me - less risky relationship, I guess. So much of my practice is in those situations - and I'm only now trying to bring it into my more intimate relationships. Children learn very easily and what they learn tends to stick with them longer, thoughout life - and is harder to change. Like speaking another language as a child... that language stays with you longer, even if you now speak another language. Guess the early learning is engraved deeper in the brain-grooves, you know? If you dislike green beans as a child... you may learn to eat them (maybe only under certain conditions) as an adult, but given a choice you'll choose something else because of the old brain-groove...
What I'm trying to say, is that this is way we "became" as children due to environment... but it's possible - and rewarding - to change some of these behaviors, as adults. In tai chi, we acknowledge that it takes 5000 repetitions before something "feels" normal... in other words, "erasing" the old brain-groove and etching in, a new one.
See ya later; busy - busy life right now!
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Hey Ami, I don't think wanting other people to change is "our sickness... " it's a big, emotional/intellectual difficulty for sure! A very thorny "problem". Especially when they can't/won't change.
But it doesn't mean, we're "sick" ... for me, it's more just forgetting that I'm not dealing with normal people, who do change, who do grow and evolve emotionally, who are considerate, who do take & fulfill requests to make changes in relationships or behavior.
Semantics, I know - but I appreciate how powerful my own thoughts/words about things can be; they can get in the way of my motivation to change myself or to see things from a fresh perspective.
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Binks: Your FIL was a blessing & a gift, teaching you that vital lesson.
"A kind of verbal foot-shuffling that assures the other person that they are not being threatened. "
"They don't understand our walking on eggshells; and in my case, I know I avoid asking straight out... so the other person usually wonders a.) what am I trying to say? and b.) why am I so afraid to say/ask it?"
'verbal foot-shuffling' is a great image (I'm licking the sidewalk). Yes, when we avoid asking straight out, we not only confuse the other person, but we probly won't get what we're requesting. We feel we're not worthy or good enough to ask; low self esteem.
Amber, I think you really nail it here:
"I wonder if this is the old pattern of trying to control/manage the other's response, somewhat - the "not being threatened" that you mentioned... because, deep-down, I haven't released the outcome or because I have a real need that I can't meet myself (or so I believe) - but that I fear will be put-down or dismissed by the "other". Self-defense required that I manage - was responsbile for - my mom's emotions; in fact, she required this of me."
Walking on egg shells actually is a way for us to control the outcome, just as being co-dependent is also a way to control the outcome.
I feel this way too, Amber:
"I think it takes a very long time to undo that habit, and to feel "OK" undoing it. I know it's easier for me, in situations where I don't know the other person and they don't know me - less risky relationship, I guess. So much of my practice is in those situations - and I'm only now trying to bring it into my more intimate relationships"
"the early learning is engraved deeper in the brain-grooves ..."
I try hard to re-wire my brain & lay better grooves; science is showing that this can be done.
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Something I took away from a series of sessions my hubby and I had in marriage and family therapy: When one person in a family system changes their behavior, it changes the "set point" of the whole system. Other members of the system have to change their behavior to accommodate the new behavior. But, the other members can change their behavior any way they choose to. And, if we are the person in the system changing the "set point", we can't dictate to those other people HOW they react/respond to OUR change. If we demand that they change (or else), or if we manipulate to "make" them change, we are becoming the people we despise. What we CAN do is set "rules" (or boundaries) for what behavior we will tolerate from them and what behavior will cause us to distance ourselves from them. They still get to choose how they act. And so do we. We need to follow through and not make idle threats (after all, hasn't the point been made that Ns are basically enraged two year olds? That's what we would do with a physical two year old --- set boundaries and then follow thru.)
So, all we can do is change ourselves, but we also can keep hoping that by setting rules and boundaries up to keep OUR lives on course, that the Ns in our lives will alter their behavior enough that we can at least tolerate seeing them once in a while. But if they don't, WE STILL have the choice to walk away. And sometimes that's the only choice they leave to us.
I think in our real lives we do have the right to ask people to change ... if they are being destructive in some way. But, we also have to keep very alert and aware that we don't have the power to change them so demands are futile and manipulation (trying to MAKE them change by underhanded methods) is wrong. We can ask, but asking doesn't make it so.
Here, sometimes I think it is helpful to suggest that someone change something about their approach. But, I like it better when the person suggesting the change does it in a way that !) doesn't make him/her sound like he/she knows it all, and 2) when it is said in a way that acknowledges that the suggestion could be wrong or the timing could be wrong and 3) when it's clear that if the suggestion isn't used, there will be no hard feelings.
That's my opinion :).
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Something I took away from a series of sessions my hubby and I had in marriage and family therapy: When one person in a family system changes their behavior, it changes the "set point" of the whole system. Other members of the system have to change their behavior to accommodate the new behavior. But, the other members can change their behavior any way they choose to. And, if we are the person in the system changing the "set point", we can't dictate to those other people HOW they react/respond to OUR change. If we demand that they change (or else), or if we manipulate to "make" them change, we are becoming the people we despise. What we CAN do is set "rules" (or boundaries) for what behavior we will tolerate from them and what behavior will cause us to distance ourselves from them. They still get to choose how they act. And so do we. We need to follow through and not make idle threats (after all, hasn't the point been made that Ns are basically enraged two year olds? That's what we would do with a physical two year old --- set boundaries and then follow thru.)
So, all we can do is change ourselves, but we also can keep hoping that by setting rules and boundaries up to keep OUR lives on course, that the Ns in our lives will alter their behavior enough that we can at least tolerate seeing them once in a while. But if they don't, WE STILL have the choice to walk away. And sometimes that's the only choice they leave to us.
I think in our real lives we do have the right to ask people to change ... if they are being destructive in some way. But, we also have to keep very alert and aware that we don't have the power to change them so demands are futile and manipulation (trying to MAKE them change by underhanded methods) is wrong. We can ask, but asking doesn't make it so.
Here, sometimes I think it is helpful to suggest that someone change something about their approach. But, I like it better when the person suggesting the change does it in a way that !) doesn't make him/her sound like he/she knows it all, and 2) when it is said in a way that acknowledges that the suggestion could be wrong or the timing could be wrong and 3) when it's clear that if the suggestion isn't used, there will be no hard feelings.
That's my opinion :).
(((((((((((((((((((((((HeartofPilgramage)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
When you spoke about the "set point" of a family system changing when one member changes....it reminded me of an illustration John Bradshaw used in one of his talks: "Bradshaw On: The Family". He used a gigantic mobile that was hanging on the stage. When he moved one part of the mobile, the "set point" changed and the rest of the mobile moved to adapt to the change. (Does that make any sense?)
Bones
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Here, sometimes I think it is helpful to suggest that someone change something about their approach. But, I like it better when the person suggesting the change does it in a way that !) doesn't make him/her sound like he/she knows it all, and 2) when it is said in a way that acknowledges that the suggestion could be wrong or the timing could be wrong and 3) when it's clear that if the suggestion isn't used, there will be no hard feelings.
Thank you for this wisdom, Heart. Your post reminds me of the traditions in the 12 step meetings. no one is the boss, the 'all knower". No one TELLS someone else what to do i.e to change . We share our own experience .With all the people with major FOO dysfunction in these meetings, there are rarely fights.
xxoo Ami
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In a backwards way, not exercising the freedom/right to ask someone to at least consider changing is like saying they are cast in stone and can't change which in a backwards way is an insult to them.
tt
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In a backwards way, not exercising the freedom/right to ask someone to at least consider changing is like saying they are cast in stone and can't change which in a backwards way is an insult to them.
tt
I agree with you teartracks, but it comes down to asking rather than demanding and the other person accepting that they could or want to change.
It can be difficult not to demand change sometimes. For instance, I have experienced bigoted behaviour from a colleague at work, I reported him and he was disciplined. We can demand that he doesn't express his views at work but we cannot demand him to change those views (although I really want to).
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it comes down to asking rather than demanding and the other person accepting that they could or want to change.
I think THIS is the crucial quote. If we all could follow this on the Board, all fights would end. Ami
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I think Dr G's essays about what happens to people from N families explains our Board drama. There are persecutors and victims. People can shift roles but it seems to be a stance in life.
We play out this drama on the Board. The" know it all's"(persecutors) tell the " I don't know's"(victims) how to shape up. However, each side is AS sick as the other, although the persecutors look healthier.
The persecutor NEEDS to tell someone else to change so the persecutor feels better. The victim has abdicated his life and does not know what to do to get out of that stance.
Each is AS sick as the other. That is the crucial point.
The Board fights are usually the persecutor telling a victim to change and the victim getting angry and lashing back. However, my theory is that we don't have to keep playing out these drama's if we can see them.
There is no good and bad. It is just the roles that FOO's have. We are a family in the sense of being a group.
That is how I see it. Ami
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I'm just not noticing any Board "fights" ...
must be missing something...but I don't think there've been any for a long while.
Seems pretty peaceful and respectful here for the most part.
I like the peace.
Hops
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Since you are not supposed to be talking to me or contacting me since we have a No Contact--Want to just forget about the No Contact? Ami
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Well, bummer.
That was a great way to shut down a good discussion. And I had something I wanted to add to the discussion.
Oh, well.
Everytime this kind of thing happens, if it's my thread I'm locking it.
CB