Question

[Hopalong]

I think one subtext here for me is that there's a difference between asking and expecting, between requesting and requiring. As most kids of Ns know, there really isn't any way that "expecting" or "requiring" compels anybody else to do anything, unless you are a parent or hold economic or some other power over them.

But I liked it when a therapist once told me:

It's always healthy to ask for what you want, as long as you release the outcome.

So if I have wishes/hopes/yearnings for someone to change their behavior in some way, whether to benefit them, myself, or us both...I can always ask for that change. Nothing unhealthy or wrong about it.

The key is to, while asking, release the outcome, knowing/accepting even embracing, that it's not in my control. It's not magic.

Just asking the question is an accomplishment sometimes. To expect, because Mighty Me Has Spoken or opined, that something will result, that'd be a mistake.

It's just the asking, sometimes, that aligns me with health and hopefulness and right intention. Not expecting a particular result.

It was always excellent for me to specifically set boundaries and even to request specific behavior change from Nmom. For her to respond in an open, mature way was the exception 999999% of the time. But it still felt good and right to ask because I was not walking on eggs, I was speaking because a person who feels welcome in the world will speak up without fear, and it was good practicing messaging myself.

Hops

[ann3]

"We want them to change.  We ask them to change.  We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us."

Looking at this again:
We want
We ask
We need

Yes, these are 3 very different things, different desires.

Asking is cool.  Shows boundaries.  We merely ask.  Maybe we'll get what we desire, maybe not, but, we let go of the outcome.

Wanting seems OK, too, but, sometimes "wanting" sets me up for disappointment.  What if I don't get what I want?  How will I then feel?  Probably disappointed.  I know what I want the outcome to be & I'll feel disappointed if I don't get it.

Needing:  This is the tricky one that can often lead to disappointment:  ie: we need them to change, but they don't change.  That can lead to suffering.  Do I really "need" them to change?  Probably not.  To me, needing implies that I am invested in the outcome, so if the outcome doesn't please me, I'm hurt.

For me, it's helpful to dissect these 3 things & then self reflect.

Hi Ami!

[Ami]

This is a great thread. Thanks for starting it, CB !                                            Ami

[CB123]

You're right, Ami.  This did turn into a great thread--but mostly because of where everyone went with it...I was asking a different question!

Ann, I agree about the needing part.  We don't need anyone to change to be okay.  I usually use the stuff that "needs" to be changed in someone else, to examine what that brings up in me.  Usually, it points out something that I need to look at. 

The needing to change that I was referring to, was the need ing to change in order to remain in relationship.  Those of us who have had to go to NC, first went through all the pain and angst of trying for forestall what soon become obviously inevitable.  We needed for the other person to change, or we knew that the relationship would no longer be possible.  When you care for someone (as we did our N's), that's gutwrenching. 

I think Hops might've gotten closer to what I was referring to in my original post: the habit we may have developed as co-N's of bracketing what we say with a disclaimer that we arent really asking for anything.  I have seen myself and others insert that into conversations, and I think it is what we have learned to do to forestall a scene from our N.   A kind of verbal foot-shuffling that assures the other person that they are not being threatened.  It's just something that I have been thinking about as an aspect of voicelessness.  We have so many.


Thanks for the discussion...much of what we have talked about has been in the area of emotional boundaries, and I think that that is probably the foundational issue for most of us.

CB

[binks]

I agree with ann3 about dissecting and reflecting upon our wants/needs/desires.

It can really help emotionally if you realise something that you thought was a need is actually a desire. This has been part of my healing process for some time, and I often have discussions with my husband about needs and wants as the feedback is helpful.

About 30 years ago when I was first going out with the boy who would be my husband, my future father-in-law taught me that it is OK to say no to a request and to expect that from other people too. He was always very matter of fact and upfront, never any hidden agenda.

We are so conditioned to say yes to every demand made of us that it takes a long time to learn to do otherwise. I think that now at 49 I am actually able to do this.

[sKePTiKal]

A kind of verbal foot-shuffling that assures the other person that they are not being threatened. 

ah yes, CB! I STILL catch myself doing this, more than I would like. I think with non-Ns, it creates additional confusion. They don't understand our walking on eggshells; and in my case, I know I avoid asking straight out... so the other person usually wonders a.) what am I trying to say? and b.) why am I so afraid to say/ask it?

I wonder if this is the old pattern of trying to control/manage the other's response, somewhat - the "not being threatened" that you mentioned... because, deep-down, I haven't released the outcome or because I have a real need that I can't meet myself (or so I believe) - but that I fear will be put-down or dismissed by the "other". Self-defense required that I manage - was responsbile for - my mom's emotions; in fact, she required this of me.

I think it takes a very long time to undo that habit, and to feel "OK" undoing it. I know it's easier for me, in situations where I don't know the other person and they don't know me - less risky relationship, I guess. So much of my practice is in those situations - and I'm only now trying to bring it into my more intimate relationships. Children learn very easily and what they learn tends to stick with them longer, thoughout life - and is harder to change. Like speaking another language as a child... that language stays with you longer, even if you now speak another language. Guess the early learning is engraved deeper in the brain-grooves, you know? If you dislike green beans as a child... you may learn to eat them (maybe only under certain conditions) as an adult, but given a choice you'll choose something else because of the old brain-groove...

What I'm trying to say, is that this is way we "became" as children due to environment... but it's possible - and rewarding - to change some of these behaviors, as adults. In tai chi, we acknowledge that it takes 5000 repetitions before something "feels" normal... in other words, "erasing" the old brain-groove and etching in, a new one.

See ya later; busy - busy life right now!

[sKePTiKal]

Hey Ami, I don't think wanting other people to change is "our sickness... "  it's a big, emotional/intellectual difficulty for sure! A very thorny "problem". Especially when they can't/won't change.

But it doesn't mean, we're "sick" ... for me, it's more just forgetting that I'm not dealing with normal people, who do change, who do grow and evolve emotionally, who are considerate, who do take & fulfill requests to make changes in relationships or behavior.

Semantics, I know - but I appreciate how powerful my own thoughts/words about things can be; they can get in the way of my motivation to change myself or to see things from a fresh perspective.

[ann3]

Binks:  Your FIL was a blessing & a gift, teaching you that vital lesson.

"A kind of verbal foot-shuffling that assures the other person that they are not being threatened. "

"They don't understand our walking on eggshells; and in my case, I know I avoid asking straight out... so the other person usually wonders a.) what am I trying to say? and b.) why am I so afraid to say/ask it?"

'verbal foot-shuffling' is a great image (I'm licking the sidewalk).  Yes, when we avoid asking straight out, we not only confuse the other person, but we probly won't get what we're requesting.  We feel we're not worthy or good enough to ask; low self esteem.

Amber, I think you really nail it here:
"I wonder if this is the old pattern of trying to control/manage the other's response, somewhat - the "not being threatened" that you mentioned... because, deep-down, I haven't released the outcome or because I have a real need that I can't meet myself (or so I believe) - but that I fear will be put-down or dismissed by the "other". Self-defense required that I manage - was responsbile for - my mom's emotions; in fact, she required this of me."

Walking on egg shells actually is a way for us to control the outcome, just as being co-dependent is also a way to control the outcome. 

I feel this way too, Amber:
"I think it takes a very long time to undo that habit, and to feel "OK" undoing it. I know it's easier for me, in situations where I don't know the other person and they don't know me - less risky relationship, I guess. So much of my practice is in those situations - and I'm only now trying to bring it into my more intimate relationships"


"the early learning is engraved deeper in the brain-grooves ..."

I try hard to re-wire my brain & lay better grooves; science is showing that this can be done.

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Something I took away from a series of sessions my hubby and I had in marriage and family therapy: When one person in a family system changes their behavior, it changes the "set point" of the whole system. Other members of the system have to change their behavior to accommodate the new behavior. But, the other members can change their behavior any way they choose to. And, if we are the person in the system changing the "set point", we can't dictate to those other people HOW they react/respond to OUR change. If we demand that they change (or else), or if we manipulate to "make" them change, we are becoming the people we despise. What we CAN do is set "rules" (or boundaries) for what behavior we will tolerate from them and what behavior will cause us to  distance ourselves from them. They still get to choose how they act. And so do we. We need to follow through and not make idle threats (after all, hasn't the point been made that Ns are basically enraged two year olds? That's what we would do with a physical two year old --- set boundaries and then follow thru.)

So, all we can do is change ourselves, but we also can keep hoping that by setting rules and boundaries up to keep OUR lives on course, that the Ns in our lives will alter their behavior enough that we can at least tolerate seeing them once in a while. But if they don't, WE STILL have the choice to walk away. And sometimes that's the only choice they leave to us.

I  think in our real lives we do have the right to ask people to change ... if they are being destructive in some way. But, we also have to keep very alert and aware that we don't have the power to change them so demands are futile and manipulation (trying to MAKE them change by underhanded methods) is wrong. We can ask, but asking doesn't make it so.

Here, sometimes I think it is helpful to suggest that someone change something about their approach. But, I like it better when the person suggesting the change does it in a way that !) doesn't make him/her sound like he/she knows it all, and 2) when it is said in a way that acknowledges that the suggestion could be wrong or the timing could be wrong and 3) when it's clear that if the suggestion isn't used, there will be no hard feelings.

That's my opinion .

[BonesMS]

Something I took away from a series of sessions my hubby and I had in marriage and family therapy: When one person in a family system changes their behavior, it changes the "set point" of the whole system. Other members of the system have to change their behavior to accommodate the new behavior. But, the other members can change their behavior any way they choose to. And, if we are the person in the system changing the "set point", we can't dictate to those other people HOW they react/respond to OUR change. If we demand that they change (or else), or if we manipulate to "make" them change, we are becoming the people we despise. What we CAN do is set "rules" (or boundaries) for what behavior we will tolerate from them and what behavior will cause us to  distance ourselves from them. They still get to choose how they act. And so do we. We need to follow through and not make idle threats (after all, hasn't the point been made that Ns are basically enraged two year olds? That's what we would do with a physical two year old --- set boundaries and then follow thru.)

So, all we can do is change ourselves, but we also can keep hoping that by setting rules and boundaries up to keep OUR lives on course, that the Ns in our lives will alter their behavior enough that we can at least tolerate seeing them once in a while. But if they don't, WE STILL have the choice to walk away. And sometimes that's the only choice they leave to us.

I  think in our real lives we do have the right to ask people to change ... if they are being destructive in some way. But, we also have to keep very alert and aware that we don't have the power to change them so demands are futile and manipulation (trying to MAKE them change by underhanded methods) is wrong. We can ask, but asking doesn't make it so.

Here, sometimes I think it is helpful to suggest that someone change something about their approach. But, I like it better when the person suggesting the change does it in a way that !) doesn't make him/her sound like he/she knows it all, and 2) when it is said in a way that acknowledges that the suggestion could be wrong or the timing could be wrong and 3) when it's clear that if the suggestion isn't used, there will be no hard feelings.

That's my opinion .

(((((((((((((((((((((((HeartofPilgramage)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

When you spoke about the "set point" of a family system changing when one member changes....it reminded me of an illustration John Bradshaw used in one of his talks:  "Bradshaw On:  The Family".  He used a gigantic mobile that was hanging on the stage.  When he moved one part of the mobile, the "set point" changed and the rest of the mobile moved to adapt to the change.  (Does that make any sense?)

Bones

[Ami]

Here, sometimes I think it is helpful to suggest that someone change something about their approach. But, I like it better when the person suggesting the change does it in a way that !) doesn't make him/her sound like he/she knows it all, and 2) when it is said in a way that acknowledges that the suggestion could be wrong or the timing could be wrong and 3) when it's clear that if the suggestion isn't used, there will be no hard feelings.

Thank you for this wisdom, Heart. Your post reminds me of the traditions in the 12 step meetings. no one is the boss, the 'all knower". No one TELLS someone else what to do i.e to change . We share our own experience .With all the people with major FOO dysfunction in these meetings, there are rarely fights.
               xxoo Ami

[teartracks]

In a backwards way, not exercising the freedom/right to ask someone to at least consider changing is like saying they are cast in stone and can't change which in a backwards way is an insult to them.  

tt

[binks]

In a backwards way, not exercising the freedom/right to ask someone to at least consider changing is like saying they are cast in stone and can't change which in a backwards way is an insult to them.  

tt

I agree with you teartracks, but it comes down to asking rather than demanding and the other person accepting that they could or want to change.

It can be difficult not to demand change sometimes. For instance, I have experienced bigoted behaviour from a colleague at work, I reported him and he was disciplined. We can demand that he doesn't express his views at work but we cannot demand him to change those views (although I really want to).

[Ami]

it comes down to asking rather than demanding and the other person accepting that they could or want to change.

I think THIS is the crucial quote. If we all could follow this on the Board, all fights would end.           Ami

[Ami]

I think Dr G's essays about what happens to people from N families explains our Board drama. There are persecutors and victims. People can shift roles but  it seems to be a stance in life.
We play out this drama on the Board. The" know it all's"(persecutors) tell the " I don't know's"(victims) how to shape up. However, each side is AS sick as the other, although the persecutors look healthier.
 The persecutor NEEDS to tell someone else to change so the persecutor feels better. The victim has abdicated his life and does not know what to do to get out of that stance.
 Each is AS sick as the other. That is the crucial point.
 The Board fights are usually the persecutor telling a victim to change and the victim getting angry and  lashing back. However, my theory is that we don't have to keep playing out these drama's if we can see them.
 There is no good and bad. It is just the roles that FOO's have. We are a family in the sense of being a group.
 That is how I see it.                                    Ami