Question

[CB123]

Ales said on another thread that it was a mistake to ask anyone to change on the board.  Is that true?  Is it a rule, spoken or unspoken, that we not ask anyone to change?  If that rule does exist, are there exceptions?

Ales, I know you are fairly new to the board--how did you know that this was expected?  Was it spoken or did you pick it up from us when you got here?

CB

[Ami]

Sometimes people tell people to change cuz they want to bully them. Sometimes people tell people to change cuz they want to help them.
 If it is to bully, it is unacceptable. If it is to help, it is good.
 Sometimes, only the person  can feel if it is bullying. Sometimes,other people can feel it and are afraid and intimidated to post.
 In any case, there should not be any bullying on a Voiceless Board.
  Maybe bullying was not the issue but telling s/one to change does open up subtleties such as being able to bully them under the GUISE  of telling them to change.
Everything is intent, really, and intent cannot be measured in a linear way.I think Dr G's presence has helped to make the Board a safer place. Also, some of the new rules where  you have to identify a person by name when you comment.We all have issues and we are all in a small space so our FOO patterns are bound to want to take over. We have to watch for that as best as we can.
                  Ami












 
 

[Sealynx]

CB,
I didn't reread the rules but I try to suggest possible outcomes and ask questions of someone rather than telling them they are wrong or need to change. In my case it is about working on my need to judge. My mother judged constantly, so I try to learn from someone's behavior, and share my assumptions about where it might take them by brainstorming many solutions. Often they respond in a way that enlightens me or I see that they are just not at a point of "inner" understanding or readiness to embrace what could be a better way. The only suggestions that might help them are not about change but about handling their current circumstance using the resources they possess at the moment. You can't really "jump start" someone unless your suggestion is the next step in their path.

For many years I taught rough inner city kids. I learned that even very bad behavior often had its origin in a proper response to a very very bad situation. By denouncing the behavior I could inadvertently denounce the person I was trying to help. I came to realize that they might still need these defenses in their current situation and I could only show them that their were other ways of being, not decide for them about when to change the tactic.

[Ales2]

Hi - Ami gave a great answer about using change to bully others.  Its insulting to some to ask/expect/tell someone to change because its subtly saying you are not acceptable as you are, or it denies your feelings as not acceptable and valued which is a underlying problem for almost all of us on the board.  Thats one of the big reasons.


Probably growing up as a kid, my issue was not about improving my grades or doing better but about my NM accepting me - and she never did. Its much easier to improve when you feel accepted because it takes the pressure off and allows you to do what you are capable of or at least try knowing you'll be fine either way. But when you are not accepted either way, its manifests as helplessness.

[Nonameanymore]

One of the first coda principles is that you can't really change anyone else except yourself.
Even if you would ask someone to change, by whose standards would you ask them to do so?

Think also of the other principle that each person is where they need to be right now. I honestly believe this even if sometimes it's hard to take.

P

[sKePTiKal]

Hey CB....

I think it's OK to suggest change in what people DO. For instance, if I have a habit of calling you "Hon" - and it grates on your nerves... you could ask me to change that. That's in no way a judgement about me - or you, in that example. Again, you'd be asking for me to change my behavior toward you... and I believe that's something we do, in a polite society. We accommodate those kinds of requests on a daily basis.

In general - on the board, I think we can bring up the subject of change with each other... in the form of a question, or suggestion... with the understanding that the party in question has the right to say that it's not interesting, doesn't apply, or just misses the boat totally - in other words - both parties are respectful of each other's boundaries. That doesn't meet the criteria of "bullying", in my book.

It's our level of trust in and knowledge of each other - and security in our own boundaries - that will allow that kind of honesty with each other. Obviously, it's a completely different situation if it involves a complete stranger... suggesting change at a very personal level. Each situation will be just a bit different... I think.

I missed the thread that sparked this question - so I'm trying to speak in generalities - not to any specific situation or people.

[binks]

I agree with Persephone, you cannot change anyone but yourself.

However, I also agree with PhoenixRising, you can ask someone to modify their behaviour towards you.

For instance, at the school where I teach, if a child says something racist I will tell them their views are unacceptable and they are not allowed to voice them. I know that I cannot make them  change, but I can challenge the behaviour.

[Ami]

I think when you have N damage  you either  become more of a victim or more of a persecutor. Dr G talks about this in his essays.
 I think this is the basic theme behind Board fights.
  This should NOT be the place that people play out old FOO(family or origin) patterns but a place to  share and heal the old patterns. This should be THE safe place we didn't have not  a repeat of what we did have.
 I know this is an ideal and cannot work perfectly as life does not work perfectly but I think it is a goal.                     Ami                  

[Hopalong]

Hi CB,
I do not believe there's any such rule here. I've read Doc G's list, it's not there.

I think people need to trust themselves, speak as honestly as they know how, and not take things personally.

Microscopes on others' ways of expressing themselves only constrict thought.

Learning healthy assertiveness means you get to practice boundaries here, which I like. IOW, if someone asked me the "wrong" kind of question, then that's an opportunity for me to decide:

--do I want to respond
--do I want to connect or explain or go further
--do I want to step back (it's okay to let a question "hang", too)
--do I want to assert myself
--do I know how to say No
--do I want to consider something about myself or another in a new light

On and on. Likewise, I think it's good to allow each person to find their own way to what's tolerated, embraced, frowned on, etc.

Nobody needs to "run the board" or Be the Teacher.

We're all teachers.

I can't think of anything I want to ask anybody at this moment to change, but I don't feel afraid to use some phrase like that if it feels right at the time...

I can trust. Like you, for example. If you asked me to change something, I know I'd stop and give it a truly heartfelt consideration, because I respect you so much. Same's true, for me, of many others.

love to you,

Hops

[CB123]

Thanks to all for your answers.

The big reason I asked the question is because it is this thought that no one should be asked to change, that is at the root of the abuse that I (we?) suffered.  For my situation, it was the very heart of the voicelessness that I experienced. 

The person who is being asked to change may say they are being bullied (N's often say that), but they either use that as a smoke screen--or they may be truly so damaged that anything but total acceptance of them exactly as they are is too threatening to contemplate.  Then the non-N may have no other recourse than to just withdraw from the relationship altogether.  With an N, if you say there  is a problem, you ARE the problem.

It sounds reasonable to say that you should only ask someone to change if they are actually being morally wrong--racist, etc.  But how many of us would have loved to have our mother listen when we talked?  We would have loved to say: I need you to change in this area--and not be met a discussion of us and our bad behavior for saying anything.  If we truly believe that everyone should be accepted right where they are at the moment, we wouldnt be struggling right now with the wreckage of relationships that we are.  We don't REALLY believe that our mothers/husbands/sisters/brothers/friends should be accepted just as they are.  We want them to change.  We ask them to change.  We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us.

I don;t want to see bullying on the board any more than anyone else does.  But I wonder if part of the healing from voicelessness involves losing the fear that is in each of us that we will say it the wrong way or start an explosion if we arent careful.  My question on this thread had to do with whether or not we were saying something that dhad caused d a new member to walk on eggshells.

I felt an alarm go off when Ales made a point of coming back and posting again to assure her reader that she was not asking for any change.  I do that, too.  And it occurred to me that we have been carefully trained to walk on eggshells and we do it so well.  I just hhope that posters here know that there is a middle ground between being a bully and saying nothing.  The N's in our livves were very black and white and they have not encouraged us to look at subtle differences. 

Just something to think about.
 CB

[Ami]

Thanks to all for your answers.

The big reason I asked the question is because it is this thought that no one should be asked to change, that is at the root of the abuse that I (we?) suffered.  For my situation, it was the very heart of the voicelessness that I experienced. 

The person who is being asked to change may say they are being bullied (N's often say that), but they either use that as a smoke screen--or they may be truly so damaged that anything but total acceptance of them exactly as they are is too threatening to contemplate.  Then the non-N may have no other recourse than to just withdraw from the relationship altogether.  With an N, if you say there  is a problem, you ARE the problem.

It sounds reasonable to say that you should only ask someone to change if they are actually being morally wrong--racist, etc.  But how many of us would have loved to have our mother listen when we talked?  We would have loved to say: I need you to change in this area--and not be met a discussion of us and our bad behavior for saying anything.  If we truly believe that everyone should be accepted right where they are at the moment, we wouldnt be struggling right now with the wreckage of relationships that we are.  We don't REALLY believe that our mothers/husbands/sisters/brothers/friends should be accepted just as they are.  We want them to change.  We ask them to change.  We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us.

I don;t want to see bullying on the board any more than anyone else does.  But I wonder if part of the healing from voicelessness involves losing the fear that is in each of us that we will say it the wrong way or start an explosion if we arent careful.  My question on this thread had to do with whether or not we were saying something that dhad caused d a new member to walk on eggshells.

I felt an alarm go off when Ales made a point of coming back and posting again to assure her reader that she was not asking for any change.  I do that, too.  And it occurred to me that we have been carefully trained to walk on eggshells and we do it so well.  I just hhope that posters here know that there is a middle ground between being a bully and saying nothing.  The N's in our livves were very black and white and they have not encouraged us to look at subtle differences. 

Just something to think about.
 CB

Thanks for sharing, CB.                                  Ami

[sKePTiKal]

CB, this is such an excellent question - and your background explanation behind it is VERY important, I think.

Especially the point, about the murkiness of expections, needs, wants for change in another. On the one hand, we were considered to be in the wrong about our needs/expectations and change/adaption was expected of us - and that involved many intensely painful emotions: shame, humiliation, not good enough...

... part of my healing process was to realize that this could be turned around to expect exactly the same thing from my FOO, in the name of "boundaries". That's only part of the process; it's not an end result. It feels good for those of us, who were denied this as children, to spend some time in this phase - powerful, self-affirming, sane. In this phase, we practice boundaries - and asking for change from others. There are a lot of things - some self-evident, some subtle - to learn about ourselves and others, in this work.

Eventually, though, I found that even this phase had to be let go. Putting the "shoe on the other foot" was, for me, still being stuck in the old FOO-programming of relational power-games. Case in point - dealing with business tasks/decisions with my brother. It serves absolutely no useful purpose for me to expect him to be what he is not; know about things he's never had to consider before; nor - ultimately - blame him for my discomfort, anger, frustration about his idiosyncrasies or lack of knowledge and business skills. After all - he is also a victim of the same FOO-crap. And he is a very different - almost complete opposite - type of person than I am.  Asking him to change anything other than behavior is fruitless; and even that isn't always possible for him.

So I have to learn to let go of justification for anger and frustration (blame, in other words); my unspoken (sometimes unconscious) request for him to change and become what he is not. Instead I focus on concrete results... call me within 24 hrs... tell me what you want to do; what is your decsion... otherwise I end up in a tangled ball of emotional explosives - doing me no good with the physical effects of that stress; or risking a stalemate... or worse, a walking away and unilateral action... which is a very negative, confusing result for the business.

This is my work in progess, right now. And I've got many opportunities to practice - and not just with my brother!   This sort of IS the dysfunction in my relational style... and essentially, it's a limitation; a restriction of experience of others - I'm finding that outside of that limitation are many ways to move beyond the oppositional/blame cycle.

I started discovering that HERE... by allowing people to tell me what they saw about me; what I could change about how I acted, thought, and felt... and trusting that the criticisms were meant to help; given lovingly. Hey - I'm still working on some of those TOO...

tee-hee!

[Ami]

This is my work in progess, right now. And I've got many opportunities to practice - and not just with my brother!  This sort of IS the dysfunction in my relational style... and essentially, it's a limitation; a restriction of experience of others - I'm finding that outside of that limitation are many ways to move beyond the oppositional/blame cycle. .
[/quote]


You have made a lot of progress, Amber!                                                                Ami

[ann3]

Great post, CB; like a mini essay of N recovery.

I particularly liked these:

"With an N, if you say there  is a problem, you ARE the problem."
Oh yeah!!  Amen!!  Put it on a bumper sticker.

"And it occurred to me that we have been carefully trained to walk on eggshells and we do it so well.  "
Oh yes!!

However, regarding this thought:
"We want them to change.  We ask them to change.  We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us."

Yes, we do want them to change, but, if I have learned ANYTHING in this N recovery odessey, it's this:  You can't change anyone except yourself.  Wanting another person to change is a false flag.  We can't change others, we can only change ourselves, so wanting another to change is a fantasy. 

I think that once we change, then there's 3 possibilities: 
1.  The other person doesn't change, but, since we've changed ourselves, we see them differently, we have accepted them & the relationship begins to exist on a new & different level.  So, we can stay in relationship with them, but it's a different kind of relationship since expectations have changed.  We've accepted them as they are, warts & all.
or
2. The other person doesn't change, but, since we've changed ourselves, we realize that we cannot accept them & so the relationship ends.
or
3. Each person changes & we each accept the other.  This is rather unlikely with an N.

[Ami]

Great post, CB; like a mini essay of N recovery.

I particularly liked these:

"With an N, if you say there  is a problem, you ARE the problem."
Oh yeah!!  Amen!!  Put it on a bumper sticker.

"And it occurred to me that we have been carefully trained to walk on eggshells and we do it so well.  "
Oh yes!!

However, regarding this thought:
"We want them to change.  We ask them to change.  We need them to change if they are to stay in relationship with us."

Yes, we do want them to change, but, if I have learned ANYTHING in this N recovery odessey, it's this:  You can't change anyone except yourself.  Wanting another person to change is a false flag.  We can't change others, we can only change ourselves, so wanting another to change is a fantasy.  

I think that once we change, then there's 3 possibilities:  
1.  The other person doesn't change, but, since we've changed ourselves, we see them differently, we have accepted them & the relationship begins to exist on a new & different level.  So, we can stay in relationship with them, but it's a different kind of relationship since expectations have changed.  We've accepted them as they are, warts & all.
or
2. The other person doesn't change, but, since we've changed ourselves, we realize that we cannot accept them & so the relationship ends.
or
3. Each person changes & we each accept the other.  This is rather unlikely with an N.

Great post(( Ann)) !                                             xxooo  Ami