Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: swimmer on January 11, 2010, 07:09:51 PM
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Has anyone here looked at the actual behaviors which "invite" a voiceless role in a given group. I marvel how people in my profession can actually lack skill, but somehow they are never scapegoated or made wrong.
Swimmer:)
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I think that if we want to be liked by others more than like ourselves, predator types pick that up . Predator types are waiting for prey. If we LOOK like prey, we are in line for being road kill . Confident people will not prey on you only weak people . xxx ooo Am
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Great insight Ami. I tend to "invite" this when I have other vulnerabilities going on in my life. It's like a snowball, the more I try, the more the predators find me. I try to be "better" at work after being wrongly critisized, instead of just stating what is and moving on. I've found this is such an inconsistant patten for me. I'll be "okay" for a few years, then something will knock me down if I'm caught off guard. I guess what I knew as "being on guard" is simply confidence. I need to work on maintaining my confidence, even through rough times.
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^I'm the same. Looking back when I was the most vulnerable, I was like a ball bouncing back and forth. Being abused in all areas of my life. Not just one. That makes it tougher to get out.
When you feel so down and numb, it's hard to think clearly and recognize who is a "safe person or place" that won't exploit you. When I have rough moment, I try to be careful who I share it with.
In the past, I had a bad habit of exploding my emotions to the wrong people (who then took advantage of me).
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Wow - there was a lot said here that resonates with me. I agree with Ami about predator types picking weaker types and I agree with the vulnerabilities coming up that might provide the catalyst from
I started what I call an assertiveness journal - which I have found to be very helpful - and it contains all the situations where I was silent when I should have stood up for myself. Basically, state the incident and what I would have (or should have said) in response. I also can make conclusions and have learned lessons from it Its been enormously helpful. I still dont know the one thing that makes me a target - its nebulous - I wish it were specific (like wearing red when i shoudl wear blue) and something i could clearly define, understand and eradicate, but I hope to find that answer soon. for the time being, I think its the speaking up for myself that will make it change.
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I heard a comedian on the radio the other day do a bit about his desire to "go teach self defense to wildebeest." He was really funny as he pointed out "those things have horns! Why do they just stand there and let the lions chew their <explicit name for a body part deleted> off?" He went on to say that his goal was to have the lion go back to the pride and say, "Hey man, leave the wildebeest alone. Remember the good ol' days when they used to stand there while we chewed their <deleted> off? Well, Uncle Leo is in a coma now, some wildebeest has been taking self-defense."
Anyway it was funny on the radio. But also it made me think.
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I think Ami brings up a good point about the predator/ prey relationship. I would add that far too many people take out feelings they don't want to own on people who can't or won't fight back. No one in their right mind is going to take on the boss because they are feeling angry about something gone wrong in their little world. But many will berate a subordinate in order to release the rage. We have been trained to be understanding and try to fix what has gone wrong no matter what it is. In many cases that is either impossible or inappropriate because it originates outside the issue at hand. Even thinking about "what we did" is a waste of time. One of my New Year's resolutions is to no longer be the "nicest person I know."
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I like your NY resolution, Sealynx. I don't know when or why we as a society decided that being nice is a virtue. Nice is not synonymous with honest, kind, loving, patient, any of the things that are real virtues. Nice = being afraid for anybody to not like us. Nice might equal being dishonest, because we don't want to speak the truth for fear of not being liked. It might equal being unkind when a bit of truth spoken tactfully would be the kind thing to do. It might equal being unloving when a person is self-destructing and we are too fixed on being nice to give them a wake-up call. It might equal being impatient when we walk away because sticking around would be so frustrating that we might not "be nice."
Great resolution! I'm going to think of all the ways "being nice" is counterproductive to both me and others, and substitute being nice with being a better human being.
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Has anyone struggled with being screwed over for being nice, but still being screwed over for standing up for yourself?
I have been told, "It's your fault. You're too nice to people."
When I do fight back, it's suddenly "No wonder people don't like you. You're such a bitch. Can't you be more nice?"
Does that make sense to anyone? It's like I don't know what to do. Then again, I was often told I was mean when I didn't do what narcissists wanted me to do (have sex with them, wear what they wanted me to wear, etc).
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Has anyone struggled with being screwed over for being nice, but still being screwed over for standing up for yourself?
I have been told, "It's your fault. You're too nice to people."
When I do fight back, it's suddenly "No wonder people don't like you. You're such a bitch. Can't you be more nice?"
Does that make sense to anyone? It's like I don't know what to do. Then again, I was often told I was mean when I didn't do what narcissists wanted me to do (have sex with them, wear what they wanted me to wear, etc).
If I understand the concept correctly, in psychology parlance, this is what is known as the "double-bind".
Bones
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Has anyone struggled with being screwed over for being nice, but still being screwed over for standing up for yourself?
I have been told, "It's your fault. You're too nice to people."
When I do fight back, it's suddenly "No wonder people don't like you. You're such a bitch. Can't you be more nice?"
Does that make sense to anyone? It's like I don't know what to do. Then again, I was often told I was mean when I didn't do what narcissists wanted me to do (have sex with them, wear what they wanted me to wear, etc).
It makes sense (((NLAS))))
How to navigate it is the hard part! xxoo Ami
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NLAS,
I think this is where trial, error and self forgiveness have a big place. Also note that someone else's not liking the fact that we just stood up for ourselves does not equal being wrong! Sometimes they did certain things that were wrong because we let them and they don't like seeing the "rules of the game" changed to reflect the truth. Will a person content to violate some aspect of a relationship just "flip a switch" when you bust them and apologize? Not likely!!
When it comes to the real screw-ups...
We were not allowed to screw up in our family and screwing up could happen even when we took all the right measures to please a normal person. As an adult, I had to learn to say sorry and let that be enough when something didn't go well. Needless to say we are hyper-sensitive to the guilt from screw-ups. While the person we offended may be angry for a moment, our punishment of self can last for weeks.
For a normal person, "I'm sorry", or if we don't agree, "I'm sorry you feel that way", is all the acknowledgment we owe their feelings. After that we can take note of their preference and whether it is asking so much of us that we no longer wish to be around them.
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You know how we are so kind, gracious and giving to other people. Why don't we be this way with ourselves? I am seeing the wisdom in this.
I am getting a self and you all know better than anyone what a long time in coming that was! xxoo Ami
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Heart - I really resonate with what you said about being NICE. One of my weaknesses is the fear of people saying I'm not NICE, but agree completely, thats its not a virtue, it may in fact be dishonest. A personal coach friend of mine gave a talk and asked what are the hard things for me to do (its called the hero question) - and they were - stand up for myself; be assertive w/ boundaries and RISK not being NICE.
Nolonger - your post also resonates with me. I totally understand the double bind of being nice vs. being assertive. With the criticism you got though, its obvious they are going to fight you regardless of which stance you take (they are the troublemakers, not you). But in the long term, standing up is the better way to go because if your needs piss them off, you are better knowing sooner than later. And, you wont have to take back ground you should have asserted in the first place.
This is a great topic! Thanks!
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Heart - I really resonate with what you said about being NICE. One of my weaknesses is the fear of people saying I'm not NICE, but agree completely, thats its not a virtue, it may in fact be dishonest. A personal coach friend of mine gave a talk and asked what are the hard things for me to do (its called the hero question) - and they were - stand up for myself; be assertive w/ boundaries and RISK not being NICE.
Nolonger - your post also resonates with me. I totally understand the double bind of being nice vs. being assertive. With the criticism you got though, its obvious they are going to fight you regardless of which stance you take (they are the troublemakers, not you). But in the long term, standing up is the better way to go because if your needs piss them off, you are better knowing sooner than later. And, you wont have to take back ground you should have asserted in the first place.
This is a great topic! Thanks!
THERE IS A GOD!! And it's this board!!
Swimmer: Thank you for creating this. I feel you did this for me, today. I needed this today and how'd you know it??
Ami wrote:
I think that if we want to be liked by others more than like ourselves, predator types pick that up . Predator types are waiting for prey. If we LOOK like prey, we are in line for being road kill . Confident people will not prey on you only weak people . xxx ooo Am
This said it! This is true and now I wonder what other people think of the "weak person" and do they KNOW that person is "weak." Ami: I have a sister-in-law who loves to attack me when my guard is down (so it seems). She knows I'm nicer than nice and when I'm not looking, she let's me have it. But she is seen in the family (my husband's family) as such a great, smart wonderful person. They all talk about her as "tough as nails" or "she's so incredibly pragmatic and 'tells it like it is'". If she's NOT confident, then why do people say that she is? I have to think that they don't see the evil side of her because SIL likes the family and wants to belong. SIL wants to push me out!
Ales2: Sticking up for myself at the appropriate times is the biggest problem I have. It eats away at my core. To RISK not being NICE, for me, is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute. It defies my logic. I have worked on this since I went to therapy 8 years ago. I need the tools to be assertive with boundaries and oh how I try. I feel this has to do with quick thinking in a situation that calls on you to stick up for yourself or to be assertive. I suffer from "slow thinking." AFTER THE FACT, I pound my head saying, "why didn't I say this, or, why didn't I say that?" And then I beat myself up over not sticking up for myself and allowing my voice to be 'heard.'
It's not like I don't know what "sticking up for myself" is all about, it's just my timing. How can I put the "after the fact" thoughts in to play when I need to??
Bear
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I think for me the behavior has been an open eagerness.
A high school bf once said to my Dad, Mr. Long, Hopalong is about as hard to read as the Sunday paper.
I had empathy, eagerness, vulnerability, every emotional response on my face like a billboard.
5 decades later, I've learned a bit of mask.
Hate that, but it seems necessary, just as wee critters dive for the underbrush in the wild...
I have to be my own shelter.
Hops
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NLAS, the only thing I can add to what everybody else has said about those weird "opposite" messages we sometimes get is ...
For me, I had to realize that I was too extreme both in being nice and in being bitchy. Basically, I would disrespect my own feelings and my own rights, and take it and take it and take it from somebody else until I had just had it and then I would rip 'em a new one. I had to come to grips with that and work to change my pattern ... to be more honest in the moment and not wait until I was ready to throttle the other person.
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Sorry. The post below is a repeat of my last entry, I did not mean to quote myself in the proces of quoting Ami:
This said it! This is true and now I wonder what other people think of the "weak person" and do they KNOW that person is "weak." Ami: I have a sister-in-law who loves to attack me when my guard is down (so it seems). She knows I'm nicer than nice and when I'm not looking, she let's me have it. But she is seen in the family (my husband's family) as such a great, smart wonderful person. They all talk about her as "tough as nails" or "she's so incredibly pragmatic and 'tells it like it is'". If she's NOT confident, then why do people say that she is? I have to think that they don't see the evil side of her because SIL likes the family and wants to belong. SIL wants to push me out!
Ales2: Sticking up for myself at the appropriate times is the biggest problem I have. It eats away at my core. To RISK not being NICE, for me, is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute. It defies my logic. I have worked on this since I went to therapy 8 years ago. I need the tools to be assertive with boundaries and oh how I try. I feel this has to do with quick thinking in a situation that calls on you to stick up for yourself or to be assertive. I suffer from "slow thinking." AFTER THE FACT, I pound my head saying, "why didn't I say this, or, why didn't I say that?" And then I beat myself up over not sticking up for myself and allowing my voice to be 'heard.'
It's not like I don't know what "sticking up for myself" is all about, it's just my timing. How can I put the "after the fact" thoughts in to play when I need to??
Bear
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swimmer, I read your original question differently
Has anyone here looked at the actual behaviors which "invite" a voiceless role in a given group. I marvel how people in my profession can actually lack skill, but somehow they are never scapegoated or made wrong.
this sounds like you're asking about why do groups stay silent and collude when theres something wrong, eg, an important skill thats lacking.
.... am I on the right track here??
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All these posts are thought provoking in a healing way:).
I just get so annoyed at work because usually my experience background is shot down in some way or another. I'll have the answer to something, and meanwhile people are literally scrambling around me trying to solve something. When someone from the outside of my group comes along, they come to me and my coworkers hate that. That's what I mean by having the skill needed at hand. It's like I'm invisable. It usuallyhappens after I have a good evaluation. People notice you aren't slumping after an eval, and they pounce on you. I NEVER talk about any success I've ever had, or praise. I don't gossip, and this might be a red flag, telling people I'm nice. I never try to be good and correct gossip, I just find a way to get busy and work.
That's why I'm wondering if any of you guys were regretful for a specific statement or reaction you thought put a target on your forehead. I think Ami is right on, that being nicer to other people than yourself is a good place to start:).
Keeping a low profile is important I've noticed, what are some of the "rules" you've lived by knowingly or without realizing that nurture this low profile phenomena? I'm gregarious, so this does not come easy to me.
I'm not sure if this makes any sense? This thread has grown beautifully so keep it going as well:)))
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N’s hate seeing other people praised or looking good in front of them. They have such low self esteem, it becomes a dagger for them to take out and beat you down with. I had to ask someone at work to stop praising me in front of others, so I know what you mean by low profile. They can’t handle any attention being on anyone else but themselves. That’s one of many reasons for them to pounce, invalidate you. At least with the spotlight not on you, their horrid attention/reactions gets drawn elsewhere.
It doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do. These people are too terrified to lose complete control of everything. All or nothing mentality. They must live in constant fear of rejection. They must think that a human isn’t capable of loving unconditionally (just themselves). Well, by holding on too tightly to controlling everything, they could potentially self-fulfill their prophecy. Do they know that subconsciously, making them worse? I’ve wondered about the gossip thing also.
I do not regret standing up for myself at work, even though I was severely punished. It opened my eyes, I now know what these people are capable of, and I will never expect any anything from them again. One way street with you being the one to give. You either get out to stop the bleeding, or continue to let them sponge off you.
N’s won’t share. They can’t stand you having something they don’t. So, they either take it from you, or one-up you by obtaining something better.
It isn’t being nice if you’re allowing yourself to be a doormat. That’s not being nice to yourself. It is hard to find the balance!
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posted by bearwithme;
To RISK not being NICE, for me, is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute. It defies my logic. I have worked on this since I went to therapy 8 years ago. I need the tools to be assertive with boundaries and oh how I try. I feel this has to do with quick thinking in a situation that calls on you to stick up for yourself or to be assertive. I suffer from "slow thinking." AFTER THE FACT, I pound my head saying, "why didn't I say this, or, why didn't I say that?" And then I beat myself up over not sticking up for myself and allowing my voice to be 'heard.'
It's not like I don't know what "sticking up for myself" is all about, it's just my timing. How can I put the "after the fact" thoughts in to play when I need to??
This takes the words out of my mouth (so to speak!). So much of my story, those missed moments. Specailly this:
It eats away at my core.
.......This describes it so well. Because for me, it means i'm out of integrity for not having spoken my truth. Yet, it happens so, so quicly, that I close down on myself, my logic somehow comes down and shuts out me for what I would have said.
Currently I'm practicing staying conscious in situations where I could shut down, that is, staying wth my real self, staying present, etc.
I thnk, one has to have a process which enables one to re-grow those damaged parts where we fall into that ravine anyway. Im trying to create this process but cant prove it yet, still in early stages.
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I'm with you on all of this River! Let's try this together. I need an example to follow and to practice.
This got me thinking: Has anyone heard of those workshops where you role play being assertive or sticking up for yourself. I saw something once where a group was demeaning to a woman and she had no idea what was going on and they kept making fun of her, personal attacks and odd things, etc., then they had her stand up and take the floor and the room was silent. She had all the time she needed to say what she wanted, even cried, and finally told everyone (hypothetically) off! She was interviewed after and she said that she finally understood what it means to say what you mean and mean what you say and to preserve your own moment in time....she said it was a "physical" reaction and not emotional. I don't know what she meant by that. Perhaps her heart stopped racing and she calmed down enough to get the right words out, etc.????
I would like to do something like this, really. I think it would be a good exercises for me. 8)
Just thinking about stuff.....
Bear
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What a story !
".to preserve your own moment in time....
.................
those words hit the spot for me!!! going to keep and use those words best as I can.
....she said it was a "physical" reaction and not emotional. I don't know what she meant by that. Perhaps her heart stopped racing and she calmed down enough to get the right words out, etc.????
...............
but dont you think, if it happens so instantaniously when we dont say the words, then its almost like a physiological reaction, rather than thought or emotion, so, therefore, the converse would also be true. You know all the research thats so talked about re neurological stuff? ~ well, that could be it, one can re-wire on the spot !! : ?
In my time, I've been to so many groups etc and learnt assertive skills, then inspite of all I know, in a situation, ~ I find I've done it again, - hopelessness and despair. So, I've needed a deeper process than learing the skills, tho the skills are vital too, but you got to be present internally to even be able to use the skills.
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Hi Bear,
If you search Assertiveness Training or ask a women's organization where these workshops might be found in your community, that's what you need....
I requested them locally and a women's organization began to run them now and then.
They're an amazing experience. Really nips passive aggression in the bud and teaches you to feel safe about being in the present moment. Then you can speak.
hugs
Hops
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All in all, it sounds like the best way to avoid this voiceless role is to... stay low profile, somehow "privatize" success, express thoughts in a "non-emotional" way & practice assertive skills when getting beaten down.
Swimmer:)
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Reading these posts again got me thinking about my quirky habit. A confession of sorts.
I have a habit if talking to the wall after I've been beaten down. I especially do this when I see my sister-in-law who has been less than nice to me over the years and has insulted me and yelled at me in public, etc. I even talk to the mirror and "stick up for myself" to myself. I will be driving in my car and have a full fledged argument about what just happend and I will say the things I should have said. But shamefully, I do this over and over again until I'm all stressed out again. Then I take a deep breath and try to shake it off but it really never goes away.
I know, I'm weird or schizophrenic!
Bear
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You thought you were the only one whose mirror and car interior know exactly what you want to say???
Not soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
xo
Hops
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You thought you were the only one whose mirror and car interior know exactly what you want to say???
Not soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
xo
Hops
LOL!! I'm so in good company!!
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I agree, interesting story Bear.... This reminds me of a few select times in my life where I really told off my NM. One was when she was suicidal (a dear HS friend of mine commit suicide and she knew this). I came home from college on a whim (big mistake), and decide to call just in case... It was snowing lightly etc.. My step dad said I'm so glad you called, your mom has locked herself in the bathroom blah blah... At that time I did not know what was going on, so I panicked, called a close friend as I wanted to find a sane adult for some support. Anyways.....
When I got there, she was still in bathroom, finally came out after a while. I'm getting somewhere here I promise:)...... We were all sitting there in her bedroom.... Dear family friend, stepdad, myself & her. I had this flash of clarity and words started coming out of my mouth I hadn't planned on saying.....About how thoughtless she was, seeing her daughter go through the pain and guilt of a friend's suicide, then this.... Everyone in the room was speechless and my mother said she was impressed by my "speech"... Along with our dear fam friend an stepdad, they were like, wow! I really felt like my body was speaking, it was as if I didn't have a thought, but was saying everything right. It was completely visceral.
I'm not sure if this is the same, but it reminded me of this memory.
Swimmer
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Ah, Bear. Talking to the wall. Thank God we're not alone.
I do it so much and sometimes don't even realize I'm doing it. My daughter was in the car with me one time when I started talking - not to her - but to the car - saying something I wished I'd said in a certain circumstance. She turned to me and said "What are you talking about?". I tried to explain but just felt crazy at that moment.
The concept of being honest, as so many have talked about here, is actually a very new concept for me. And honesty and being nice seem to go hand in hand for Nparent survivors. Not being nice was the worst thing anyone could say to me. Anytime I was honest with my parents as a child about a situation, I was punished for not being nice (since my childlike honesty usually reflected poorly on them). So I equated being honest with being punished.
The worst part of it is that I was never honest with myself. That has hurt me, it has hurt other people, when I was not true to myself. It hurts others because I have presented a false person to them. So they had expectations of me that in the end hurt both of us.
Logy
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I do it so much and sometimes don't even realize I'm doing it. My daughter was in the car with me one time when I started talking - not to her - but to the car - saying something I wished I'd said in a certain circumstance. She turned to me and said "What are you talking about?". I tried to explain but just felt crazy at that moment
Logy- This is me! My daughter even said to me "huh, mama?" I really felt crazy...
The worst part of it is that I was never honest with myself.
I really have a hard time with being honest with myself and true to myself. The whole "voicelessness" is deep!
Swimmer wrote:
I really felt like my body was speaking, it was as if I didn't have a thought, but was saying everything right. It was completely visceral.
This is the key to getting out of our voicelessness role!! If we could "switch" off that part of our brain (the emotions, pain, fear) when we are challenged by the N and speak the real truth without it being emotional but physical, rather, then I think I would have a much easier path in life. I would have self-esteem, assertiveness, and pride. So Swimmer, you did good! I have only told off my NM a few times and it was wrought with gut wrenching emotion and pain that I was screaming at her....I felt violent inside and I'm not a violent person but I wanted to punch her so badly (that's another story for another thread).
Bear.
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Yes Bear, the first time I went NC with my mother in my 20's I didn't know she was an N. I knew I couldn't say anything nice at that time and had dreams of hitting her with a baseball bat. My N crossed so many of my personal boundaries up till that point, my psyche could not take anymore to stay a real person. I'm not even a violent person. The more boundaries I set up with my mother, the bat fantasy eventually disappeared.
I've had numerous clear moments which I "told off" my mother, but they are just memories like a sunny day. It did nothing to change her, if anything she used what I told her against me in the long run. She would learn what normal people think is unacceptable, and "hide" these traits better from me and others to reel me and other N feeds in. I hope this makes sense. I guess I'm trying to say, the anger is healthy (I think so), and I personally used it as a barometer.... I can't always see when she crossed my personal space, cause she is so tricky. Trust your feelings that you're not crazy for possibly loosing it. The last time I lost it with my mother, I said this okay.... she is really nuts, so I felt bad about what she as doing but not about losing it. Anyways.... the result has been the same for me, loosing it or totally standing up for myself with clarity..... The result was all the same, she would come back worse the next time.
Swimmer
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Thanks Swimmer. I totally get the way that she has the same reaction whether you lose it or stick up for yourself with assertiveness. They are weird that way, aren't they.
Just me thinking aloud here: I've just never heard of something as horrible as NPD. I mean, it's so awful. It's so awful to have been raised with an NM. I know there is other forms of abuse that are just as horrific or even more so like beating, sexual abuse and torturing, etc., but this mental Nism stuff plays out and along so slowly with consistency and with such tenacity that it becomes a slow torturous death of sorts. I'm by now means minimizing the aforementioned forms of abuse but just trying to relate it to something AS horrific as those, per say. It's almost impossible to describe at times and I guess it's goes back to the "nobody to work with" matter. Like a ghost that's not a ghost but is a ghost that's not a ghost.
Children of N parents are in a league of their own and if you don't know it you can't explain it to people and expect them to understand. But here, so, so, so, so many words are unspoken for each of us and we all somehow get it without verbalizing our thoughts and feelings to exhaustion-- and If I'm not wrong here, I know some of you can or will get my "ghost" perception as silly as it sounds.
Thank you for believing in ghosts.
Bear
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bearwithme, when I first read your post about "talking to the wall" I thought you were speaking of your relatives! Cause that's how I feel when speaking to some of mine. That I might as well be beating my head against a brick wall as trying to reason with them (or argue with them, for that matter). While some people such as you on this board may be needing to learn to stick up for yourself more, I need to learn when it's a lost cause and move on.
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Hi Bear,
If you search Assertiveness Training or ask a women's organization where these workshops might be found in your community, that's what you need....
I requested them locally and a women's organization began to run them now and then.
They're an amazing experience. Really nips passive aggression in the bud and teaches you to feel safe about being in the present moment. Then you can speak.
hugs
Hops
Jumping in late here, but none the less.
I found that I got in the most trouble when I was doing well and feeling very confident..... stating boundaries in my life.
My problems started when I failed to consistently enforce those boundaries.
I felt strong enough to handle anything, I suppose.
I also didn't know how to assert myself in the right way, for the right reasons.
Reading books, like those suggested by Hops, has helped take the fear and stress out of speaking up for myself.
It's just a statement, not an invitation to have my life ruined, which is how it felt before.
Mo2