Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on May 10, 2010, 08:36:23 PM
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What I'm compelled to write about is not exactly about a normal voicelessness experience, yet it reminds me of voicelessness.
Voicelessness means a lot of things probably, one aspect of voicelessness is the personal experience that is unsaid.
There is a person in my neighborhood that likes to chit chat with me, an old older-man, I have obliged and talked to him out of neighborly politeness. The last couple of times that this really old dude has initiated chit chat with me his conversation has leaned towards the sexual. The last conversation he had with me he even looked at my body while he was having this type of conversation with me. Needless to say I didn't like this so much.
For the longest time I thought he was a conversationalist just talking in some sort of old fashioned out-dated way in the city I thought he was just friendly. Now I am rather disgusted.
I know it is my right to not be as polite to him as I was in the past, I know that many people would not think twice about this.
In fact a good portion of females probably would have acted bored with him quickly and avoided him.
I'm not sure what my point is of writing this. I am an adult, this is not exactly a big deal but it still has stuck in my mind as something I didn't like.
It's interesting to me how simply and quickly a person can invade another persons boundaries.
I think about how females especially with their physicality have to deal with this sort of thing.
I didn't like that he was insinuating sexual things to me and looking at my body. Because my body is mine.
I wont be so polite to him the next time I see him.
There is something about the "pressure of politeness". The way he slips his remarks about his sexuality into a "polite conversation".
I suppose I would say that I briefly experience a moment of confusion before I really understand what exactly a person is saying or doing and then I can't always think fast enough to disengage myself from the conversation as quick as I would like to. Because there is some sort of social familiarity.
Of course social familiarity is not some sort of right.
It's not important but I wanted to write it out. It reminds me how the memory of certain events become burdens somehow.
He is not the first older man who has overstepped some social boundary when it comes to sexuality. It bothers me that men feel so comfortable imposing their sexuality onto females that are younger then them, as if they simple have the social right to do so.
I guess it is weird to me that even as an adult, a man can make me feel disgusted about my own sexuality and my own body.
That is how I would describe it, some men make me feel disgusting in my own skin.
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I hate what you are describing and it makes me very very angry. I've gotten to where I stop them dead in their tracks by being very blunt about what I don't like. I usually get called a Bitch, to which I respond, I'm glad we understand each other.
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Yes, Sealynx,
I think you are right about being blunt and being "bitchy".
Being bitchy sometimes is just doing what's best for oneself.
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Amen to being blunt and bitchy in these kinds of situations. I can think of several situations I've been in like this over the years. Made me feel so weak and dirty. Hate, hate, hate it! Blunt, bitchy boundaries, that's what I'm shooting for. Worn
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In a situation like this I would bet the man has created a fantasy "you" and is now trying to pull the real you into it. Chances are he is no longer relating to the real you at all and focuses ONLY on what encourages his beliefs. That makes it hard to stop without continual confrontation.
I once went to a Star Trek convention just for the fun of it. The place was filled with really nutty men who had memorized every episode and were dressed in real costumes from the series. Marina Sirtis, the actress who played Counselor Troy, was the guest speaker and the very first thing she did was to make it VERY clear that she was not her character. She walked on stage with an air of authority that was nothing like the calm welcoming Troy and thanked everyone for her house, her car and all the things the series had brought her. I got the impression she fully understood what was going on in the minds of some of these men and wanted no part of it!!!
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I totally get what is being said here. It's creepy. The youth ministry director at my church crossed some line by making an inappropriate sexual comment about me. He would never have said this if my husband was there. Needless to say we have to find a new church, as I won't have my daughter anywhere near this guy (I'm not the only one).
I understand Helen about the reaction you had. For me I think I actually forced a smile and thought, somehow I'm not flattered by this.... Now I'm angry and feel like going to another staff at the church and confiding. I feel like it's not real though....
Thx for sharing Helen, I really need to face this and this thread has helped me.
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Hi Swimmer,
Easy for me to say, as I'm not sure what I'd do (or have the energy to do), but I thought of a few questions:
Why do you have to leave?
Can you take your concern to his superiors, through the Board?
Surely he shouldn't be left in charge of youth if he's got some lack of self-control and sexual innuendos issues?
Is this church a place that welcomes people (esp. female people) speaking up and requiring serious respectful treatment?
I hate when people in authority positions are left to them, while those they're misusing slink away.
Hey, this is a chance to use your voice!
Just a thought. I know, each situation is its own. And it's not easy to manage this kind of thing, and I might just leave, too...
hugs
Hops
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Swimmer,
I agree with Hop. This person needs to be reported, if for no other reason than it is not unusual for pedophiles to "court" a parent prior to "coming on" to the child. In fact they frequently offer to "help out" a single mom. If the parent condones the behavior, the child may not only feel it is okay, but also assume that they can not possibly turn to the parent when they themselves become uncomfortable with similar advances. If any of this happened in earshot of your child be very careful about the behavior you model. We give our children lots of warnings about sex and predators but when it comes to our actions we are often trapped by "female conditioning". A simple "that was inappropriate" followed by walking off can do a lot to stop someone like this in his tracks and if the child is around it models appropriate behavior.
Helen,
Thank you for bringing this up. You said so well what it feels like to be accosted in this manner. It aims to take advantage of the very kindness and sensitivity that make us women.
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Thank you so much you guys!! You guys are so right, even if I wind up changing churches anyways, this is so wrong and someone needs to speak up.
Thx for your voice Helen:)
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Go for it Swimmer, you might regret not doing it later, yes?
Just a note on your topic title Helen: I have bucketloads 'unsaid' but I am silent not through the pressure of politeness. Maybe in time I will come to a conclusion about what to say and what not to say, what to do and what not to do. Today I am indulging vengeance fantasies. Luckily I know my fantasies from reality. I think the small daydreams help me to crystalise what I really think. It feels as though I'm becoming resolved, no matter what happens externally. Ha, good job I'm mostly sane.
Did anyone happen to see the BBC interview, Jonathan Ross and David Bowie? Some time ago. Ross asked Bowie a question which resulted in Bowie's confusion, because he didn't understand that Ross was being smutty. When he did understand, his reaction was veiled disgust. The 'confusion into understanding' moment was almost a pressure of politeness moment. Similar.
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In a situation like this I would bet the man has created a fantasy "you" and is now trying to pull the real you into it. Chances are he is no longer relating to the real you at all and focuses ONLY on what encourages his beliefs. That makes it hard to stop without continual confrontation.
.....Marina Sirtis, the actress who played Counselor Troy, was the guest speaker and the very first thing she did was to make it VERY clear that she was not her character. She walked on stage with an air of authority that was nothing like the calm welcoming Troy......... I got the impression she fully understood what was going on in the minds of some of these men and wanted no part of it!!!
That's funny about Marina Sirtis, I can really picture the predicament she is in with male Star Trek fans confusing character vs. real person. I think "counselor Troy" was my favorite character because of her empath abilities.
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I totally get what is being said here. It's creepy. The youth ministry director at my church crossed some line by making an inappropriate sexual comment about me. He would never have said this if my husband was there. Needless to say we have to find a new church, as I won't have my daughter anywhere near this guy (I'm not the only one).
I understand Helen about the reaction you had. For me I think I actually forced a smile and thought, somehow I'm not flattered by this.... Now I'm angry and feel like going to another staff at the church and confiding. I feel like it's not real though....
Thx for sharing Helen, I really need to face this and this thread has helped me.
These church situations can become very political, the church may protect it's own interests rather then the interests of the community.
Just be emotionally prepared if the church personnel decide that the "whistle blower" is the problem.
Sorry to hear about that. The moral vs. power conundrums people have to face in life. Eh?
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Thanks Helen, it helps to remember other people might not see what I do (or want to speak up). We will probably stay connected with the church, but visit another one for a children's program.
The church is Presbyterian, so there is a fair amount of tolerance for people's voices. Everything has to be voted on at one time or another. Speaking up will likely not change anything, but with other people's comments something might change. If not, no loss... I don't want to be around a bunch of people with thier heads in the sand.
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Swimmer,
I think you said something important there, "with other people's comments," perhaps they already have commented and the pastor has hesitated either because of who complained or because it has only been one other person. Adding your voice may or may not get immediate action, but if this man is a problem, it will support others and create a pattern that can not be ignored.
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Helen, Swimmer
I read an article about whistle blowers recently. It's something you do for yourself; a tiny minority of WBs survive intact, let alone get any thanks for what they do. It's the nature of people to dislike people who go it alone. They want to stay safe with the group (understandable)and will shun the WB / outsider for fear of being tarnished. But who cares more about belonging to a group than their integrity? Well it depends I guess on what's at stake and whether or not you have a few moral supporters. Go with your heart - not the group.
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Not to minimize or contradict people's intuition or reaction or experience here. I've been in the situation, myself - and I know it's real and really icky. And I don't want to excuse anyone either.
The generation of men who grew up in the first half of the 20th century almost have a different set of cultural norms and attitudes and behaviors, especially concerning sex and women. It's bult into their brains, just like my habits, expectations, etc are built into mine. At one time, men thought a suggestive remark to a women was a form of flattery; paying a compliment to woman. It usually went beyond a "You're looking very pretty today" type of thing. To this generation, doing such a thing isn't socially "wrong" - it's a now-archaic form of expressing "I like you".
In the second half of the past century, women's lib et al., set out to change that. So now we have guidelines on what constitutes sexual harassment, etc. And I think that's left a lot of older gents (and pervs, too) very, very confused about what is permissable and what isn't. I don't want to argue the rights/wrongs of this social change, really - I'm just pointing out what I've observed.
Case in point: the dean of our Business School and I were a generation & a half apart. Our working relationship got off to a very tense, uncomfortable start (my boss set me up...). I guess he expected me to panic (I did, for a while) and to just "go away"... and I didn't. Several times, over the years, I was publicly berated by him over certain departmental decisions (shooting the messenger) - yet in private meetings, we were able to resolve conflicts to mutual satisfaction. By the time he retired, I was quite fond of him because he didn't BS about what he wanted or play silly head or ego games... and I was also welcome to say what needed to be said, and I was comfortable not mincing words or twisting things into a "politically correct" statement.
At our last meeting, he actually asked permission to hug me because he wasn't sure if I was "one those females" - who would consider it a boundary violation. I responded that I was old enough to remember when a hug was a sign of respect and affection among business people and not some "move" being put on me. And I was kinda sad, that he even had to ask... but I did understand the reluctance to just reach out and hug me.
This is the kind of "confusion" I'm talking about for guys of that generation. And in turn, it causes confusion (and distrust) for women, too... because the only thing we've got, to be able to tell the two motives apart without openly asking - is that inner intuition or how we feel... and some sort of trust-criteria-hoops to be able to tell the "straight shooters" apart from those with ulterior motives.
It's kinda sad that things have come to this level of distrust among people, but I surely also understand the need (on both sides) to be "safe", too.
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I think you brought up an interesting point PR. While I don't think most of us are dealing with a highly educated socially appropriate older men, the idea of education and social class does enter into this. Men want to possess women who elevate their status in some way. Women also desire this but since society makes us hyper-critical of our looks and doesn't place nearly as much social/sexual value on money and power as an equalizer, we are more likely to take a self inventory before attempting to seduce a highly attractive man. If we try and fail, chances are we will blame ourselves. I know some very sensitive men, but most got that way via education or upbringing.
Most of the men I have had issues with were not perverts, they were over-sexed and under socialized. They were attempting to elevate their social status by dragging me down a notch. At least some of the women they dated must have encouraged their crude sexual behavior, but somewhere inside these men knew that the women who put up with the dirty talk and glances were on their social level. They wanted to snag someone better than they are who gives them status with other men, but in doing so they don't want to change one thing about themselves. So they are saying, I deserve that attractive well mannered woman and I'll show you that she will accept me just the way I am. When the woman spurns them, it is not just a personal rejection, it can turn into a social class rejection or "the bitch thinks she is too good for me!" This places the blame for rejection on the woman!!
I was thinking of what it might look like if I acted like these men...Here is a scenario...feel free to laugh!!
I watch "Men who stare at Goats" over and over until I've developed a huge amount of lust for George Clooney. I fantasize about what life will be like with a man like that. The following Friday I dab on some perfume and head out to an upscale bar in my jeans and flip-flops. I sit down next to the first "hot" well-dressed man I see and commence to flirt. When he excuses himself I yell, "What's wrong baby, can't take the heat? You don't have anything I can't find better of!" After this I get drunk and go home to watch more George Clooney moives figuring that guy was just a creep. Just as well he took off. I know I deserve better!
Who wants a fantasy driven partner who is incapable of self-reflection? I certainly don't and when I think of men who act this way in that light, my sympathy for them drops to zero!
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That particular guy that I spoke of, well I did break off the conversation early and walked away said "I need to go eat lunch, bye"
he looked at me like he was confused for some reason and like he wasn't ready to end the conversation. I think it is the first time I took the action to end the conversation though.
Another noticing that I had after writing this was not so much what is said during a verbal conversation but the overall flow of the conversation. The insinuations, looks and expressions are significant but when I think more about the flow of the conversation...well some conversations are a give and take, some are labored, some are fun and enjoyable and free and goofy. Some conversations are loaded with tension. Some conversations are all about one person negotiating and winning the negotiation, getting the other person to agree to something.
Some conversations are more difficult to break off easily. I think that is part of what I mean by the force of politeness.
The monopoly. My father use to monopolize conversations with me. I was not encouraged to practice gathering my own thoughts and perspectives and then verbalizing them. I was a taciturn kid.
My mother's father (my grandfather) would monopolize conversations with my mother. She could say something and even though he heard her, he would ignore what she said as if never spoken and continue with his monologue.
I think I've seen other people write on this board about how a Narcissistic family member will monopolize a conversation.
Not that all conversation monopolization = Narcissism.
I've noticed how some men, not all, but definitely some feel that they have the right to monopolize. AND that it is the females duty to receptively, passively listen.
There was also something else that is a conversational twistback that some men do, they make an obviously inappropriate remark or something and then somehow they sort of put it onto the other person. Sort of like "she was rubbing her big boobs" in my face .
When the actual situation is that the woman is covered from head to foot in modest boring clothes. I'm not explaining that well. Maybe I will come back to it later.
I guess the moral of the story is that children of Narcissists don't have practice navigating conversation with confidence.
Children of Narcissists are trained to defer to the Narcissist as are females trained to defer to the male.
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Well said Helen. I think it is as important for us to end a conversation that isn't flowing as it is for us to find our voice.
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Also there is something about the feeling of confusion. Confusion means disoriented.
When a conversation takes a turn to something else. I felt confused because he started out playing "I'm a personable neighbor dude" then he moved on to "lets see if I can move this into a more intimate zone" It was an indirect social transition that I wasn't expecting.
If I said no directly he was prepared to deny his move for more intimacy.
I think that I don't always recognize indirect things very well intellectually but I feel weird about it.
I'm just working it out, learning to process things more clearly.
The reason why it was a boundary violation had something to do with him not acknowledging his own intentions.
Also because of his age. I think it just comes down to better judgement or something. I'm not Anna Nicole Smith, never have been.
I don't date 19 year old males and I also don't want to date men who are 30 yrs older then me.
I also hate it when males make some sort of sexual assumptions about me. I don't like the way it feels.
When men make a sexual assumption it by-passes a womans voice. At least that is the way I see it.
Maybe it's also a physical energetic thing. Men can put their sex vibes on a strange women without even saying a word.
Other men can also ask a woman out on a date without imposing their sex vibes onto her.
I know that if I was direct to this neighbor he would deny it. That bothers me, the awkwardness and the boldness is left to the female.
Men leave themselves invisible escape tunnels so they can run away with their egotistical pride intact.
The female becomes the bitch in the situation.
Oh well.
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Reading this thread reminded me of an incident that took place when I used to work in the admissions office of a university. I received this call, which I initially assumed, was regarding the admission criteria to the university. But then, the call started to get REALLY WEIRD! The guy on the other end kept changing the subject to himself and asked me to use my imagination! (WTF?!?!?) I kept changing the subject back to the university and its admission criteria, which was my job to discuss. Then I heard that tell-tale sound in his voice that made the light bulb suddenly flash on!!! This MORON was MASTURBATING ON THE PHONE!!!! :x I promptly told him that no one pays me enough to listen to a jerk beat his own meat! Then I hung up on him!!! I was TICKED!!!! :P
Bones
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Bones,
Shame you couldn't have transferred his call to Campus Security after informing them what was going on. I'm sure the officers would have had fun keeping him going while they traced the call!!!
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Hmmm....someone needs to tell him that is called sexual assault!
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Another example: I live in an apartment building, a male tenant of the building is a friend of the building's owner. He does handy man work for the owner sometimes. I ran into him in the hall and I asked his opinion about an issue in my apartment bathroom that I was considering just fixing myself. The handy man tenant emphatically volunteered to look at the problem. I hadn't intended on him coming over inside my apartment, my intention was to pick his brain in the hallway. When he did come over, a few seconds of being in my apartment he was starting to say things about spanking me etc. (it's laughable) and he was getting frisky. I quickly kicked him out.
A while after that happened, the handyman told me that I was ugly.
This situation felt less threatening to me then the prior one I described with the indirect old man.
I think in this situation because I was able to aggressively tell him to get out of my apartment, I was able to take action in a way and he left.
With the old man because everything has been insinuated and carefully indirect it has taken me a while to finally put it all together and it is harder to respond directly to indirectness. I realize that his indirectness is intentional, it really ticks me off. If he had been more direct then I could have nipped it in the bud. I'm going to nip him allright. All I have to do is assertively tell him that I'm busy, I'm smiling right now because I like thought of saying loudly even in a public place to him "I'm busy". It's the truth, everytime he starts a conversation with me he is interupting me from my own life.
Ok, I think I summed something up for myself there: It's hard to respond directly to indirectness. The old guy eventually says "how did we get on to this topic" as if he has no control over what he is saying.
By the way, I decided that as a tenant it was not my responsibility to fix the structural problem that the manager should have noticed when I moved in. It wasn't a new problem and the owner is cheap. Eventually the little fixable problem turned into a major leak into the level beneath me. The whole bathroom was redone due to the leakage, its much nicer now. In the end I'm glad I didn't fix it.
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Bones,
Shame you couldn't have transferred his call to Campus Security after informing them what was going on. I'm sure the officers would have had fun keeping him going while they traced the call!!!
Unfortunately, the year this happened, the technology was not available yet.
Bones
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Hi PR,
Cultural norms - I think that played into the partial story I talked about. Here's more of the story. The man was my neighbor. I was out washing my car in my back yard. He was out in his back yard working in his garden. When I finished washing the car and as I was walking toward the door, he waved across the fence, holding a bunch of green onions. As he gave me the onions, he asked if I'd been watching the Olympics (this was back in the 70's). I said yes. Then he explained that his wife was on an out of state trip with her girl friends and would I mind if he came and watched the Olympics with me. Wanting to be polite, but stammering a bit, I said it would be OK. Even as I said OK, my gut warned me that I shouldn't agree. Mind you, I knew nothing 'bad' about this man. He and his wife seemed like regular folk. Anyway, I walked into the house, called my mom and told her that he wanted to come over and watch the Olympics with me and that I didn't feel 'comfortable' about it. She (a woman from his generation) pooh poohed my reticence saying, tt, that old man isn't going to bother you! So going on good old mom's instinct rather than my own, I let the 'invitation' stand. I had explained to him that I had to get up real early the next morning and would not be staying up very late. By now, it's too late to expect him to exercise good manners and leave at a decent hour, so in a little while, I got up, opened the door, holding onto the door knob indicating that it was time for him to say something polite like good night and take leave. That's when he dive bombed my breasts. Edit in: It all ended quickly. Thats when I went into hysterical laughter that I was not in control of. It feels odd to say this now, and may not make much sense, but it was as if the uncontrollable laughter came from the 'wings' of my own life. A kind of double insult. It baffles me how my gut knew better than my reason. It bothers me that I checked with and listened to my mom's reason/instinct instead of listening to my gut. It bothers me that no matter how long I practice listening to my gut, I still override its good counsel at times.
I don't know if a common cultural norm played any part in his behavior and my mom's pass when I shared my concern with her, though it is an interesting thought. I'm more inclined to think that the badly behaved will always be with us.
tt
Ohhhh!!! You had one of THOSE neighbors too!!!!!!
I was also washing my car, in the backyard of NWomb-Donor's house one summer day during the 1970's. As I was hosing it down with the hose attachment with the trigger, I heard my name being called. I looked up to see my next door neighbor, standing in his back door COMPLETELY NAKED!!!! :shock: One second, I was speechless! The next split second I took CAREFUL AIM with the trigger hose I still had in my hand!!! I never saw a dude RUN SO FAST to get inside his house and slam his door! Needless to say, he NEVER pulled THAT STUNT again! In one sense, I wish I managed to spray him and, at the same time, I didn't want to pollute the water with the likes of his ilk! :P
Bones
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..........The next split second I took CAREFUL AIM with the trigger hose I still had in my hand!!! I never saw a dude RUN SO FAST to get inside his house and slam his door! Needless to say, he NEVER pulled THAT STUNT again! In one sense, I wish I managed to spray him and, at the same time, I didn't want to pollute the water with the likes of his ilk! :P
Bones
That's awesome Bones, we all should be lucky enough to be equipped with industrial style- firetruck size water sprayers for those moments in life.
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..........The next split second I took CAREFUL AIM with the trigger hose I still had in my hand!!! I never saw a dude RUN SO FAST to get inside his house and slam his door! Needless to say, he NEVER pulled THAT STUNT again! In one sense, I wish I managed to spray him and, at the same time, I didn't want to pollute the water with the likes of his ilk! :P
Bones
That's awesome Bones, we all should be lucky enough to be equipped with industrial style- firetruck size water sprayers for those moments in life.
Yeah! It would be FUN to hit the bulls-eye!!!!
Bones
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Yeah! It would be FUN to hit the bulls-eye!!!!
Bones
It could be a new carnival game. Or a video game where one "hit's the bulls eye"
There are plenty of violent video games and movies with aggression directed towards females.
Why is there not a video game for women to "hit the bulls eye" It could be therapeutic.
I'm reminded of those old-school feminist self defense classes where women yell and kick the heck out of a guy in full padding.
Got to love those guys that will get all padded up and let women beat on them. I'm sure there are some ok guys, but there are a lot of not ok guys out there also.
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We should all carry water guns so that we can immediately raise our weapons as the BS starts. Perhaps they would get the message.
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I'm filling mine with ice water. 8)
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tt: I agree that your neighbor committed a sexual assault - your gales of (unhurt) laughter notwithstanding! I was zooming in on what Helen was saying about those indirect, not overt statements that "just don't feel right"... and how SOMETIMES they could be just a harmless, generational tic... I still worry about how one would know and I guess the truth is, you probably don't.
Better safe than sorry, I guess.
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I think it isn't important to know what is in the person's head. We don't owe old or young men a good mind reading. They can pay a psychic for that!!!
If you show discomfort of any kind to what is being said, a normal person worth knowing will back off because YOU APPEAR UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE COMMENT. That is all that matters.
It doesn't matter what their intentions were or whether they meant it or not...The bottom line is the person in front of you did not enjoy it. If you don't care about that and continue to press on with the same topic, then you don't deserve to continue knowing that person.
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Yeah! It would be FUN to hit the bulls-eye!!!!
Bones
It could be a new carnival game. Or a video game where one "hit's the bulls eye"
There are plenty of violent video games and movies with aggression directed towards females.
Why is there not a video game for women to "hit the bulls eye" It could be therapeutic.
I'm reminded of those old-school feminist self defense classes where women yell and kick the heck out of a guy in full padding.
Got to love those guys that will get all padded up and let women beat on them. I'm sure there are some ok guys, but there are a lot of not ok guys out there also.
Now if only I had the computer skills to design such a game!
Bones
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We should all carry water guns so that we can immediately raise our weapons as the BS starts. Perhaps they would get the message.
I got mine! And it's shaped like a Star Trek Phaser!!!!! :D
Bones
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I'm filling mine with ice water. 8)
Challenge is....how to keep the ice water at a constant temp of around 32 degrees Fahrenheit when it comes time to take aim and FIRE!
Bones
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When I was in Alaska, spending time with fishermen, I noticed how men lay claim to a female as "sexual territory".
Its barbaric/crude but it is what it is. Some men consult other nearby males via social cues to see if other males have already "claimed" a female without consulting the female- so it's more a matter of what he thinks he can get away with (I find this approach to be disrespectful to the female).
-Men pursuing women incessantly
-Men who project their interest onto the woman in a strange way "I know you want me baby" approach
-Innuendo etc.
-Men who decide that "Hello" means "Yes lets do it right here right now"
-Men who grab or do things like divebomb
-Old men who won't accept aging and want to assuage their own fears of getting old by proving to themselves young women "want" them
-Etc.
I think with all of the above there is something wrong with normal social cuing. When I think about it, none of the above behaviors seem like real courting, it's more like social acting out and/or aggression. It's more of an "acting on someone".
I also noticed that some men will directly and respectfully cue a female and look for a direct cue back thereby "consulting" her in the process. I think this is healthy courting type behavior. This is also an ongoing repeated process. When I think about it, seems this is the only normal healthy approach. Of course there is the vs. versa of women cuing men etc.
Anyways I think I've processed it plenty.
The thing about Nar-mothers is that they don't respond to a baby's/child's cues in a healthy way.
So I think that is why I ended up writing about the Neighbor dude on here is because something about the social cuing process was off.
The social cuing process I guess communicates a lot of different things. From baby to mother: I need this, I need that, I don't like this, I do like that. Same thing with courting.
I prefer direct intentions and clear yes and no signals. Everything else freaks me out.
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I'm filling mine with ice water. 8)
Challenge is....how to keep the ice water at a constant temp of around 32 degrees Fahrenheit when it comes time to take aim and FIRE!
Bones
A very well trained pet skunk would do the trick.
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Helen,
When I think of the effect that men have on my life it is much more negative than positive even though my two best friends are men. Men are the reason I can't go out in nature to take photographs ALONE and feel safe. When I get in my kayak to paddle off down some gentle river, I'm not afraid of alligators, bears or sharks. They all have fairly predictable behavior patterns and if you leave them alone they will likely do the same for you. I am afraid of being raped by some "red neck" who will do whatever he can get away with and is stronger than I am. That whole constellation of issue you mention is what can make a woman's life not only unpleasant but dangerous as well....which is why I have a zero tolerance policy for it.
I was watching a program the other day on women who date men in motorcycle gangs. Some wore jackets that literally said "property of" the gang. The program discussed how these women did whatever the gang wanted and that many had been raised to feel that they should spend their lives pleasing men. I was really amazed...there was no responsibility whatsoever placed on the men who were portrayed as basically hard party types who frequently had legal issues. I think the more we demand respect and teach men that we aren't "objects" but people, the better the world will be. Unfortunately they still run it, but we raise them and sometimes encourage or allow them to be offensive people.
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I'm filling mine with ice water. 8)
Challenge is....how to keep the ice water at a constant temp of around 32 degrees Fahrenheit when it comes time to take aim and FIRE!
Bones
A very well trained pet skunk would do the trick.
I like that idea!
Bones