Unsaid.

[sKePTiKal]

Not to minimize or contradict people's intuition or reaction or experience here. I've been in the situation, myself - and I know it's real and really icky. And I don't want to excuse anyone either.

The generation of men who grew up in the first half of the 20th century almost have a different set of cultural norms and attitudes and behaviors, especially concerning sex and women. It's bult into their brains, just like my habits, expectations, etc are built into mine. At one time, men thought a suggestive remark to a women was a form of flattery; paying a compliment to woman. It usually went beyond a "You're looking very pretty today" type of thing. To this generation, doing such a thing isn't socially "wrong" - it's a  now-archaic form of expressing "I like you".

In the second half of the past century, women's lib et al., set out to change that. So now we have guidelines on what constitutes sexual harassment, etc. And I think that's left a lot of older gents (and pervs, too) very, very confused about what is permissable and what isn't. I don't want to argue the rights/wrongs of this social change, really - I'm just pointing out what I've observed.

Case in point: the dean of our Business School and I were a generation & a half apart. Our working relationship got off to a very tense, uncomfortable start (my boss set me up...). I guess he expected me to panic (I did, for a while) and to just "go away"... and I didn't. Several times, over the years, I was publicly berated by him over certain departmental decisions (shooting the messenger) - yet in private meetings, we were able to resolve conflicts to mutual satisfaction. By the time he retired, I was quite fond of him because he didn't BS about what he wanted or play silly head or ego games... and I was also welcome to say what needed to be said, and I was comfortable not mincing words or twisting things into a "politically correct" statement.

At our last meeting, he actually asked permission to hug me because he wasn't sure if I was "one those females" - who would consider it a boundary violation. I responded that I was old enough to remember when a hug was a sign of respect and affection among business people and not some "move" being put on me. And I was kinda sad, that he even had to ask... but I did understand the reluctance to just reach out and hug me.

This is the kind of "confusion" I'm talking about for guys of that generation. And in turn, it causes confusion (and distrust) for women, too... because the only thing we've got, to be able to tell the two motives apart without openly asking - is that inner intuition or how we feel... and some sort of trust-criteria-hoops to be able to tell the "straight shooters" apart from those with ulterior motives.

It's kinda sad that things have come to this level of distrust among people, but I surely also understand the need (on both sides) to be "safe", too.

[Sealynx]

I think you brought up an interesting point PR. While I don't think most of us are dealing with a highly educated socially appropriate older men, the idea of education and social class does enter into this. Men want to possess women who elevate their status in some way. Women also desire this but since society makes us hyper-critical of our looks and doesn't place nearly as much social/sexual value on money and power as an equalizer, we are more likely to take a self inventory before attempting to seduce a highly attractive man. If we try and fail, chances are we will blame ourselves. I know some very sensitive men, but most got that way via education or upbringing.

Most of the men I have had issues with were not perverts, they were over-sexed and under socialized. They were attempting to elevate their social status by dragging me down a notch. At least some of the women they dated must have encouraged their crude sexual behavior, but somewhere inside these men knew that the women who put up with the dirty talk and glances were on their social level.  They wanted to snag  someone better than they are who gives them status with other men, but in doing so they don't want to change one thing about themselves. So they are saying, I deserve that attractive well mannered woman and I'll show you that she will accept me just the way I am. When the woman spurns them, it is not just a personal rejection, it can turn into a social class rejection or "the bitch thinks she is too good for me!" This places the blame for rejection on the woman!!

I was thinking of what it might look like if I acted like these men...Here is a scenario...feel free to laugh!!

I watch "Men who stare at Goats" over and over until I've developed a huge amount of lust for George Clooney. I fantasize about what life will be like with a man like that. The following Friday I dab on some perfume and head out to an upscale bar in my jeans and flip-flops. I sit down next to the first "hot" well-dressed man I see and commence to flirt. When he excuses himself I yell, "What's wrong baby, can't take the heat? You don't have anything I can't find better of!" After this I get drunk and go home to watch more George Clooney moives figuring that guy was just a creep. Just as well he took off. I know I deserve better!

Who wants a fantasy driven partner who is incapable of self-reflection? I certainly don't and when I think of men who act this way in that light, my sympathy for them drops to zero!

[Meh]

That particular guy that I spoke of, well I did break off the conversation early and walked away said "I need to go eat lunch, bye"
he looked at me like he was confused for some reason and like he wasn't ready to end the conversation. I think it is the first time I took the action to end the conversation though.

Another noticing that I had after writing this was not so much what is said during a verbal conversation but the overall flow of the conversation. The insinuations, looks and expressions are significant but when I think more about the flow of the conversation...well some conversations are a give and take, some are labored, some are fun and enjoyable and free and goofy. Some conversations are loaded with tension. Some conversations are all about one person negotiating and winning the negotiation, getting the other person to agree to something.

Some conversations are more difficult to break off easily. I think that is part of what I mean by the force of politeness.
The monopoly. My father use to monopolize conversations with me. I was not encouraged to practice gathering my own thoughts and perspectives and then verbalizing them. I was a taciturn kid.

My mother's father (my grandfather) would monopolize conversations with my mother. She could say something and even though he heard her, he would ignore what she said as if never spoken and continue with his monologue.

I think I've seen other people write on this board about how a Narcissistic family member will monopolize a conversation.

Not that all conversation monopolization = Narcissism.

I've noticed how some men, not all, but definitely some feel that they have the right to monopolize. AND that it is the females duty to receptively, passively listen.

There was also something else that is a conversational twistback that some men do, they make an obviously inappropriate remark or something and then somehow they sort of put it onto the other person. Sort of like "she was rubbing her big boobs" in my face .
When the actual situation is that the woman is covered from head to foot in modest boring clothes. I'm not explaining that well. Maybe I will come back to it later.

I guess the moral of the story is that children of Narcissists don't have practice navigating conversation with confidence.
Children of Narcissists are trained to defer to the Narcissist as are females trained to defer to the male.

[Sealynx]

Well said Helen. I think it is as important for us to end a conversation that isn't flowing as it is for us to find our voice.

[Meh]

Also there is something about the feeling of confusion. Confusion means disoriented.
When a conversation takes a turn to something else. I felt confused because he started out playing "I'm a personable neighbor dude" then he moved on to "lets see if I can move this into a more intimate zone" It was an indirect social transition that I wasn't expecting.

If I said no directly he was prepared to deny his move for more intimacy.

I think that I don't always recognize indirect things very well intellectually but I feel weird about it.  

I'm just working it out, learning to process things more clearly.  

The reason why it was a boundary violation had something to do with him not acknowledging his own intentions.
Also because of his age. I think it just comes down to better judgement or something. I'm not Anna Nicole Smith, never have been.
I don't date 19 year old males and I also don't want to date men who are 30 yrs older then me.

I also hate it when males make some sort of sexual assumptions about me. I don't like the way it feels.
When men make a sexual assumption it by-passes a womans voice. At least that is the way I see it.

Maybe it's also a physical energetic thing. Men can put their sex vibes on a strange women without even saying a word.

Other men can also ask a woman out on a date without imposing their sex vibes onto her.

I know that if I was direct to this neighbor he would deny it. That bothers me, the awkwardness and the boldness is left to the female.
Men leave themselves invisible escape tunnels so they can run away with their egotistical pride intact.
The female becomes the bitch in the situation.

Oh well.

[BonesMS]

Reading this thread reminded me of an incident that took place when I used to work in the admissions office of a university.  I received this call, which I initially assumed, was regarding the admission criteria to the university.  But then, the call started to get REALLY WEIRD!  The guy on the other end kept changing the subject to himself and asked me to use my imagination!  (WTF?!?!?)  I kept changing the subject back to the university and its admission criteria, which was my job to discuss.  Then I heard that tell-tale sound in his voice that made the light bulb suddenly flash on!!!  This MORON was MASTURBATING ON THE PHONE!!!!     I promptly told him that no one pays me enough to listen to a jerk beat his own meat!  Then I hung up on him!!!  I was TICKED!!!!   

Bones

[Sealynx]

Bones,
Shame you couldn't have transferred his call to Campus Security after informing them what was going on. I'm sure the officers would have had fun keeping him going while they traced the call!!!

[Sealynx]

Hmmm....someone needs to tell him that is called sexual assault! 

[Meh]

Another example: I live in an apartment building, a male tenant of the building is a friend of the building's owner. He does handy man work for the owner sometimes. I ran into him in the hall and I asked his opinion about an issue in my apartment bathroom that I was considering just fixing myself. The handy man tenant emphatically volunteered to look at the problem. I hadn't intended on him coming over inside my apartment, my intention was to pick his brain in the hallway. When he did come over, a few seconds of being in my apartment he was starting to say things about spanking me etc. (it's laughable) and he was getting frisky. I quickly kicked him out.

A while after that happened, the handyman told me that I was ugly.  

This situation felt less threatening to me then the prior one I described with the indirect old man.
I think in this situation because I was able to aggressively tell him to get out of my apartment, I was able to take action in a way and he left.

With the old man because everything has been insinuated and carefully indirect it has taken me a while to finally put it all together and it is harder to respond directly to indirectness. I realize that his indirectness is intentional, it really ticks me off. If he had been more direct then I could have nipped it in the bud. I'm going to nip him allright. All I have to do is assertively tell him that I'm busy, I'm smiling right now because I like thought of saying loudly even in a public place to him "I'm busy". It's the truth, everytime he starts a conversation with me he is interupting me from my own life.

Ok, I think I summed something up for myself there: It's hard to respond directly to indirectness. The old guy eventually says "how did we get on to this topic" as if he has no control over what he is saying.

By the way, I decided that as a tenant it was not my responsibility to fix the structural problem that the manager should have noticed when I moved in. It wasn't a new problem and the owner is cheap. Eventually the little fixable problem turned into a major leak into the level beneath me. The whole bathroom was redone due to the leakage, its much nicer now. In the end I'm glad I didn't fix it.

[BonesMS]

Bones,
Shame you couldn't have transferred his call to Campus Security after informing them what was going on. I'm sure the officers would have had fun keeping him going while they traced the call!!!

Unfortunately, the year this happened, the technology was not available yet.

Bones

[BonesMS]

Hi PR,

Cultural norms - I think that played into the partial story I talked about.  Here's more of the story.  The man was my neighbor.  I was out washing my car in my back yard.  He was out in his back yard working in his garden.  When I finished washing the car and as I was walking toward the door, he waved across the fence, holding a bunch of green onions.  As he gave me the onions, he asked if I'd been watching the Olympics (this was back in the 70's).  I said yes.  Then he explained that his wife was on an out of state trip with her girl friends and would I mind if he came and watched the Olympics with me.  Wanting to be polite, but stammering a bit, I said it would be OK.  Even as I said OK, my gut warned me that I shouldn't agree.  Mind you, I knew nothing 'bad' about this man.  He and his wife seemed like  regular folk.   Anyway, I walked into the house, called my mom and told her that he wanted to come over and watch the Olympics with me and that I didn't feel 'comfortable' about it.  She (a woman from his generation) pooh poohed my reticence saying, tt, that old man isn't going to bother you!  So going on good old mom's instinct rather than my own, I let the 'invitation' stand.  I had explained to him that I had to get up real early the next morning and would not be staying up very late.  By now, it's too late to expect him to exercise good manners and leave at a decent hour, so in a little while, I got up, opened the door, holding onto the door knob indicating that it was time for him to say something polite like good night and take leave.  That's when he dive bombed my breasts.   Edit in:  It all ended quickly.  Thats when I went into hysterical laughter that I was not in control of.  It feels odd to say this now, and may not make much sense, but it was as if the uncontrollable laughter came from the 'wings' of my own life.  A kind of double insult.  It baffles me how my gut knew better than my reason.  It bothers me that I checked with and listened to my mom's reason/instinct instead of listening to my gut.  It bothers me that no matter how long I practice listening to my gut, I still override its good counsel at times.  

I don't know if a common cultural norm played any part in his behavior and my mom's pass when I shared my concern with her, though it is an interesting thought.  I'm more inclined to think that the badly behaved will always be with us.  

tt

Ohhhh!!!  You had one of THOSE neighbors too!!!!!!

I was also washing my car, in the backyard of NWomb-Donor's house one summer day during the 1970's.  As I was hosing it down with the hose attachment with the trigger, I heard my name being called.  I looked up to see my next door neighbor, standing in his back door COMPLETELY NAKED!!!!     One second, I was speechless!  The next split second I took CAREFUL AIM with the trigger hose I still had in my hand!!!  I never saw a dude RUN SO FAST to get inside his house and slam his door!  Needless to say, he NEVER pulled THAT STUNT again!  In one sense, I wish I managed to spray him and, at the same time, I didn't want to pollute the water with the likes of his ilk!   

Bones

[Meh]

..........The next split second I took CAREFUL AIM with the trigger hose I still had in my hand!!!  I never saw a dude RUN SO FAST to get inside his house and slam his door!  Needless to say, he NEVER pulled THAT STUNT again!  In one sense, I wish I managed to spray him and, at the same time, I didn't want to pollute the water with the likes of his ilk!  
Bones

That's awesome Bones, we all should be lucky enough to be equipped with industrial style- firetruck size water sprayers for those moments in life.


 

[BonesMS]

..........The next split second I took CAREFUL AIM with the trigger hose I still had in my hand!!!  I never saw a dude RUN SO FAST to get inside his house and slam his door!  Needless to say, he NEVER pulled THAT STUNT again!  In one sense, I wish I managed to spray him and, at the same time, I didn't want to pollute the water with the likes of his ilk!  
Bones

That's awesome Bones, we all should be lucky enough to be equipped with industrial style- firetruck size water sprayers for those moments in life.


 

Yeah!  It would be FUN to hit the bulls-eye!!!!

Bones

[Meh]

Yeah!  It would be FUN to hit the bulls-eye!!!!
Bones

It could be a new carnival game. Or a video game where one "hit's the bulls eye"

There are plenty of violent video games and movies with aggression directed towards females.

Why is there not a video game for women to "hit the bulls eye" It could be therapeutic.

I'm reminded of those old-school feminist self defense classes where women yell and kick the heck out of a guy in full padding.

Got to love those guys that will get all padded up and let women beat on them. I'm sure there are some ok guys, but there are a lot of not ok guys out there also.

 

[Sealynx]

We should all carry water guns so that we can immediately raise our weapons as the BS starts. Perhaps they would get the message.