Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sunblue on May 25, 2010, 07:54:19 PM

Title: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on May 25, 2010, 07:54:19 PM
I would have thought by now, after a lifetime of struggle dealing with an N mom, N sis and very co-D father that nothing would surprise me......but every once in a while, their evil N heads rise up and do just that.

Here's my latest "surprise".  My niece....my N parents' only grandchild, is graduating from middle school next week.  This is a date that my N parents have know about for weeks.  Well, what do you know?  Late last night, my Nmom informs me she needs me to drive them to the airport this Friday because she, my co-D dad and my extremely N sis are taking themselves a little vacation and won't be back for a week.  Translation:  they will miss my niece's graduation.

Now, keep in mind, my Nmom admits that reservations were made at the "last minute."  My just as guiilty dad claims my Nsis's schedule "suddenly changed".  It "couldn't be helped".  So what a coincidence.  The one week on the only year in which my niece graduates just has to be the time when this vacation could take place.  Also know that my Nsis and parents regularly take this vacation....For the last 10 years they've vacationed together....always going to the same place, same hotel, etc.  So, it's not like this is anything special.  Just proves the Ns got themselves together to hatch this little plan.

In the meantime, my niece asked me today whether they will be attending her vacation....partly because only a certain number of tickets are available.  I told my dad that it is their responsiblity to tell her they won't be showing up.

Makes me mad and sick and angry.  How can a grandparent justify that kind of behavior?

Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: bearwithme on May 26, 2010, 12:33:24 AM
Sunblue, I feel so bad for your little niece.  It is important for them to be there but I don't know if your niece feels that way too.  Your NM and Dad should tell her themselves for certain!  If this is their only grandchild, then it's too bad.  What a shame.  Life is short and can't they possibly post-pone their vacation to a later date or change it alltogther????  Nothing is impossible.

I hope they tell her and not stick it to you.

Bear
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on May 26, 2010, 12:58:06 AM
Well, the saddest thing of all is that neither of them cares obviously about my niece.  I'm sure if it were up to them, they wouldn't even tell her they won't be attending.  They fully would leave it up to me...but I refuse....If they plan on hurting my niece like this, let them tell her themselves.  My guess is they won't though.  They'll just go on their merry way.

Actually, I believe this was deliberate on both my Nmom and Nsis's part.  They're both evil.  This is my mom's way of punishing my brother, still punishing him, because he didn't choose my Nsis as godmother.  Not at the time of what is normally a big event, my Nmom is holding a grudge again because my Nsis (who disowned my bro and his family) won't be there.  It is absolutely no coincidence that  my Nsis's "schedule" can only accommodate a vacation on the very week my niece graduates.  It is deliberate in my view.  What kind of grandparent would knowingly forfeit seeing their only grandchild graduate for a vacation they have every year?  Of course it could have been postponed.  In fact, they only made the reservations this week.

My niece WILL feel badly.  And now I'm going to be stuck being the only person from my brother's family attending...and left to answer all the questions.  Not to mention, he and I aren't exactly on great terms after my niece's decision regarding her Confirmation (she elected her mom's best friend instead of me as her sponsor...but that's another story).



I'm so ashamed of them....especially my co-D dad.
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: gratitude28 on May 26, 2010, 06:35:09 AM
Sun,
My sister finally got on board and saw our family for real when she had her son. Our NM could give a fig about him. Of course she gushes to anyone who will listen, but it's a huge chore for her to be near any of her grandchildren. She pretends a lot for Co-D's sake, but I feel like he should see it... I mean, really! When they came to visit here, they did a smaller version of what you are describing - my kids were coming home from school for the day... NM of course slept through them leaving and hadn't seen them. She made my dad take her to the Outlet store as they were supposed to be getting home b/c she just HAD to check it out. Why the hell couldn't he say no????????
Hang in there, girl.
Love, Beth
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Twoapenny on May 27, 2010, 03:19:38 AM
Sun, the way my mum treated my boy was the eye opener for me.  There are umpteen incidents over the years but the one that really got my goat was his third birthday.  We'd arranged a party in the park with all his little friends in the afternoon which my mum couldn't (wouldn't) attend because it would be too busy and noisy.  It was eight kids, with their mums, at a swing park in the forest.  So we arranged for her majesty to come over for a birthday tea instead.  We made two cakes, one for the party, one for the tea, organised two lots of food, changed the time of the party so that my boy wouldn't be too tired and could have a break in between.  On the morning of his birthday she calls to say she is ill and can't make it.  Fair enough, we all get bugs and it's not nice to pass them on to other people.  My sister shows up at my son's party that afternoon apologising for being late, but she and my mum had been out all morning - with her three year old and newborn baby.

Selfish isn't the word for them.
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: BonesMS on May 27, 2010, 09:35:35 AM
Sun, the way my mum treated my boy was the eye opener for me.  There are umpteen incidents over the years but the one that really got my goat was his third birthday.  We'd arranged a party in the park with all his little friends in the afternoon which my mum couldn't (wouldn't) attend because it would be too busy and noisy.  It was eight kids, with their mums, at a swing park in the forest.  So we arranged for her majesty to come over for a birthday tea instead.  We made two cakes, one for the party, one for the tea, organised two lots of food, changed the time of the party so that my boy wouldn't be too tired and could have a break in between.  On the morning of his birthday she calls to say she is ill and can't make it.  Fair enough, we all get bugs and it's not nice to pass them on to other people.  My sister shows up at my son's party that afternoon apologising for being late, but she and my mum had been out all morning - with her three year old and newborn baby.

Selfish isn't the word for them.

(((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))

My reaction to the TOTAL SELFISHNESS plus what other possible adjectives to describe her "royal @#$%-ness:  DAMN!!!!

Bones
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on May 27, 2010, 01:56:16 PM
Twoapenny!

That's horrible!  It is just unfathomable to me....it's one thing to deliberately do things that they know will be hurtful to adults in their life...but children?  These lessons in betrayal and hurt from these kids' grandparents is a lesson they shouldn't have to learn....On the one hand, I guess it's unrealistic to expect that the N's behavior will change just because it is a grandchild and not their own child.....but to watch as they hurt these children...somehow seems even more painful than when it was done to me....I guess I'll never understand how these Ns can be so capable of cruelty to the ones they should be closest to..

What I've also recently understood is that the neglect from the co-D parent (in my case, my dad) is just as deep and painful as that of the N.  My dad has become so painfully co-D that looking back I realized I never meant anything to me.  His sole purpose on this life has been to please my N mom at whatever cost.  So double the whammy...and he shares the blame in my view....

But in the end, I guess all I can do is to try and remind my niece, in this case, that she has many people in her life who care about her and want to share her special day and try to make it as special for her as I can.....It just seems no matter how I try, I am forever stuck in this role of mediator and peacemaker...Maybe cause I'm that middle child...

Two, I hope your son will know how special he is, with or without his grandmother's persence...








Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Hopalong on May 27, 2010, 09:20:39 PM
Quote
This is my mom's way of punishing my brother

So she hurts the child.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

(You can't fix it by "explaining them" to her, Sunblue. Just give her your OWN love. You don't have to make up for their lack of it.)

I think that's a triangular trap a lot of sensitive people get stuck in...trying to protect others from N cruelty.

Your niece has an inevitable sad awakening and the only grace is, ultimately reality will be healthy for her.

Better to let HER feel the loss or disappointment than try to explain or maintain a myth, imo.

You don't want to give her YOUR OWN hurt to hold, but let her accept her own.

That's the only way she will become strong and not disabled by it. (She doesn't have to be...one really can move through it, with time and learning...)

xo
Hops
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: gratitude28 on May 28, 2010, 06:08:05 AM
Sun,
When I read through some of the links people posted here on why they become so Co-Dependent, it made so much sense to me. I don't excuse my dad, but I understand a little bit. If you look back a page or so in the posts, mine should be there about my dad with the links. See if it strikes you as correct, too.
Love, Beth
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on May 28, 2010, 11:36:22 AM
Hi Gratitude:

Thanks for the heads up...I looked up your post and much of the thread was dead on....Being married to an N is no picnic...and I understand that the reason our co-D dads were attracted to Ns in the first place was probably due to their own family issues.   But here's where I always get stuck.  From my view and study of true clinicial narcissism, the Ns have a personality disorder, that except in rare cases, can't be treated or corrected.  This disorder keeps them from understanding---or caring---about right and wrong.  However, from where I sit, that's not the case with co-D dads.  They may never want to admit it publicly to anyone...but they DO know the difference between right and wrong.  They DO understand that the N's behavior, neglect, cruelty, etc. and their support of that behavior is very hurtful to their children..and is indeed wrong, unfair, etc.  Yet, they continue to enable it.  What that says to me is this:  an N mom is incapable of caring about or loving her children (although I'm not advocating sympathy for them because of that) while the co-D dad is capable of it...he just chooses not to.  That shows me that while my co-D dad is capable of caring about others, he CHOOSES to ignore, neglect and hurt his children and grandchild.  Indeed, some years ago, there was a movie called "Absence of Malice".  In my view, that's not the case with co-D dads...Because they can choose....there is malice...there is an awareness, an understanding, an intent.

Maybe that's not a fair way to look at it.....but I think it's kind of true.  While co-D dads are desperately working at self-preservation, they willingly threw away their children...and their job...which was to love, support and nurture the children brought into the world.  I think that's why my anger is just as deep with my co-D dad as it is with my cruel Nmom.


Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Hopalong on May 28, 2010, 12:39:38 PM
Hi Sun...
My Dad was co-D and I certainly wished many a time that he would understand (with perception) how my mother was harming me. He was overwhelmed by the intense dynamic between her and me, though--and his innate gentleness also held him back from stepping in.

Part of it in his case, also, was generational. He was born in 1911. Loyalty to one's spouse was PRIMARY. The spouse came first. His own role model for how you treat your "bride" was significant as well---his own mother was disabled by a stroke for 13 years and his father responded from serious Christianity, with devotion and patience. So in part, my Dad was perfectly configured to be the spouse of a demanding Nlady. Mom was every bit a lady, and he waited on her hand and foot.

(And he was in love with my mother, for 50 years. Her N-ness had an uglier side with me, as she saw me as a competing female--for his attention. But for him, I believe, the charm, sparkle and beauty...and she did love him or make her life revolve around being half of the couple they were...so for him, she was THE ONE.)

Sometimes I yearned for more involvement and protection from my passive Dad. I never doubted that he loved me but I learned never to expect any particularly overt expression of it. He was just gentle, kind, and we liked to be goofy together. We didn't have "heart to hearts" about pain. He didn't know how.

I do not believe that he "chose" to ignore my pain. I think he just had no knowledge, no tools, and no idea what to do. My mother filled up the screen in his movie...

How old is your father? How educated is he? Has he been reared with the notion of psychology, therapy, addressing family issues in a direct or healthy way? Is he religious? Is he violent? What was his own father like?

Sometimes it helps to see them as just...a person. A guy. Grew up this way, learned that, didn't learn that.

Is that helpful? I don't want to come across as not validating your feelings.
I lived with a yearning for protection that didn't come. And that is anguishing for you.

I did have his affection, though. And that made all the difference.

Hops
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on May 28, 2010, 01:17:03 PM
Howdy Hops:

I found your post very thought provoking.....I understand your point...that the N fills the co-D dad's full "life" screen...with no room for anything else.  Dads from older generations...have a hard time with all of this.  I will say that it's not so much that my dad doesn't understand therapy, psychology, etc, he refuses to go there.  I have had clinical depression all my life and had therapy.  A couple of years ago, I finally convinced my dad to attend a session with me and the doc.  It was a mistake.  Before we could even get started, he informed the doc, with a smirk and condescending attitude, that he just "didn't believe in this stuff...he.he. he" .  He refused to listen, he refused to participate really.  When I saw that, I just gave up and we rode home in silence.  It broke my heart because it was yet another reminder that he didn't care about me...even to the extent to want to help me.

I've always understand my dad was raised in less than ideal circumstances.  He had a very domineering mother who raised him and his siblings by herself as my dad's dad dies when he was 2....Times were hard and he met and married my mom at a very young age.  But even so, lots of people are raised in less than ideal circumstances...they don't all neglect and toss aside their children who are being harmed by their Nmoms, do they?

As for addressing issues, my family as a whole does not, and my co-D dad does not at all.  He is a sweet natured soul and I believe had he married someone else, he could have had some happiness in his life.  But ultimately, he would have been far better off had he not children.  He never took any real interest in any of us, never had a serious conversation about anything with us.  His whole life was and is my Nmom.  Just this week I witnessed this situation which sickened me.  My parents were watching a certain show on TV.  At the same tiime there was another program which my Nmom also wanted to wazch.  So she announced she would watch the other show in a nother room and go back and forth.  She asked for my dad's help in putting on the other TV.  He not only helped with the TV, he sat there next to her the whole time.  He's worse thana puppy dog.  Follows here everywhere..can't make a single decision himself.  I have no place in his life...nor do his other children or grandchild...

So, I can't say I believe he ever loved me.  His actions always proved to me the opposite.  When you ignore someone, when you take no interest in them..when you let the Nmom do anythiing she wants and neglect her children...how can that be love?
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Hopalong on May 28, 2010, 10:34:24 PM
I'm sorry Sunblue.
He's failed to father you the way you needed.

Poor man, that scene of him following her like a beagle...She really is his True North. What a potent power.

I imagine if my Dad had been a little less gifted (he had a fortunate childhood and a professional life that was good for self-esteem) he would have been very similar.  He had just enough of his own dignity, and she had just enough decency, that they never became truly toxic in such an obvious way, to each other. Their marriage was remarkable.

It's got to be hard to see him, breathing and still present, and begin to realize that he just isn't able to give you what you need. I don't know if he "chooses" not to show love. I don't know if he feels it. Or knows how it feels. Sounds like he had such huge emptiness in his own childhood that True North is his center, his survival, his security (sad as it may look from outside).

For me, there was one amazing moment at the very end of my mother's life (she was 98) when she acknowledged how my brother had always treated me. In that honest moment, healing happened for us. I recognize what a grace it was.

Maybe there will be some moment, some day, when your father is able to reach out of his helplessness and give you some gesture that will help you move on with your life. But it may be many many years in the future. Or never.

It would be a shame to hold out for that, postponing your healing until a father, a niece, any biofamily person...gives you permission to feel worthy and whole, REGARDLESS.

You are. You were born that way. No inedequate parenting removes that worth and dignity you own.

Hops
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on May 29, 2010, 11:22:45 AM
Hi Hops:

Thank you for writing such a thoughtful and meaningful post.  I'm so glad your mom was able to give you that one moment of ackowledgement in the end.  I can imagine how much that meant.  Even if it can't change things, I think that kind of acknowledgement can help bring some closure.  I know, in my case, I will never get that.  My parents would never, ever acknowledge they were anything less than perfect.  They would never acknowledge they contributed in any way to our pain.  So, no, I do not really hold out for that.  And you're right, it is sooo hard to watch my dad as he is.  He has made my mom his whole life....he doesn't want or need a relationship with any of his kids, I guess.  I think that's what is hard for me.  To know that he doesn't want a relationship, doesn't care if he doesn't have one with us.  What kind of parent is that?  I suppose it is one who really never cared to be a parent.  And, I think when you add in those realities with the ones provided me by my Nmom and Nsis...it is just just a painful truth.

I happen to be a very big fan (ok, obsessed fan!) of a TV show that just ended...called Lost.  Although many people hated the ending, I appreciated it..but it made me sad.  The end of the show demonstrated how a group of people who had gone through a lot of things together "found" each other before moving to the afterlife...because they understand the time they spent together was the best time of their lives.  They loved each other, were always there for each other, etc.  It was sad to realize I didn't have any of those people in my life.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder that since we won't get any ackowledgement, justice, grace on this earth from these families of ours, will it ever happen in an afterlife, assuming there is one....Or will what happened to us just be a reality of life.  I realize now how damaged and short-changed my life was because of them.  I also kick myself because I know in my family I'm the only person that "gets" thiis, who dwells on it, who has trouble accepting it.
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Hopalong on May 29, 2010, 05:00:51 PM
Sun...
here's the thing: My mother did NOT acknowledge she was wrong.
She didn't have an impulse to feel responsible for my pain. I really think the distinction is, she felt genuinely sorry in that moment for my suffering--the part of her that did empathize was moved and saddened. But that's not the same thing as her feeling that she was responsible for it. I don't think she felt that sense of responsiblility, or not that I could tell.

She DID have an impulse to be truthful with me in that moment, and tell me that she knew it had happened (my brother's mistreatment).

I think to acknowledge at the same time, I failed you as a mother (in my instance, by not protecting me)...is something that would not have occured to her. And perhaps it was part of her narcissism, which she could not help.

It brings a question to my mind about the relation between empathy and guilt.

She had a truth-telling impulse that rose up in that last sunny conversation in a quiet courtyard. She saw what pain I was in, her days were dwindling, and her usual fortress of denial yielded. I did not batter it down. I really wasn't expecting anything. I just decided to tell her I was in pain (in the present, because of what my brother was doing).

She responded to my pain by saying, What is wrong with your brother? You don't DO that to your sister (he'd tried to have me arrested, accused me of fraud, etc.--because he was absent as a caregiver, I did it all...he wanted to take over--long toxic tale). And she said, We knew your brother was always hurting you.

She showed sorrow that I had been hurt but no guilt or shame or apology (about her mothering)--or understanding how he had affected my entire life. And that was okay. I didn't want her to feel guilty. I was comforted enough by her saying something TRUE about a thing that had been never spoken about. (And it was a surprise. I wasn't "looking" for it.)

I'm sure it never, ever would have happened if I had told her about his current behavior with a micron of blame or accusation ("You weren't the mother I needed") in my heart. I was so past that. The issue of blame was completely over for me. I literally didn't feel it any more (though I had for many many years). I had nothing left but fatigue, and compassion for her. I was just sitting beside her wheelchair, in a present moment, and told her something true.

And she responded with something true, that was healing for me to hear. It was like acknowledging facts. Reality. That was all. She just said, it was true, I know. And that was amaaaaazing. I was no longer alone in my memories.

Apology, though, or ownership, or apology or shame or anything like that...any "confession"...was not what happened.

But it was good enough for me. If I had understood, truly understood, sooner, that she could not give what she did not have (regardless of my opinions or judgments of what a mother SHOULD do or have to give her child) -- I would have suffered much less and healed much sooner.

It was just reality. And I think reality is a tremendous friend. Hope, expectations, blame, maneuverings, manipulation, preaching, exhortation, wishing, trying to urge or help or compel someone else to "get it" -- I tried them all. Still do slip there now and then. But they never did one trace of anything as useful for me as accepting reality (letting tragedy go) did.

hugs
hops
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Hopalong on May 30, 2010, 10:14:17 AM
Hi Sun...

Just had another thought about your Dad...don't know if it's helpful but it struck me.

Your father never had a father. So he literally had no core model in his mind for how to be one.
But what he did have, as his polestar and survival center of his existence for his entire conscious memory...was a mother.

So it makes such psycho-sense that he's locked onto your mother as a 2 y/o would be to his mother, even more intensely than normal, in a frightening universe in which the father had vanished....

I can't imagine anything other than fear, under his resistance to therapy, that blind swatting it away.

I imagine it has felt to you as though he's swatted you away, too, for a long, long time. But I think it is just the buried toddler terror in him. It made him. Shaped him. And that's why he is the way he is with her.

Such a sad vision. But if it's the truth...there's some comfort in knowing why the reality is. That is NO way is it about you. It's not personal to you ("I will reject my daughter as undeserving of a father's love..."). I don't think your father could even have such a coherent thought about rejection, or depression, or family dynamics.

He's got one dynamic going. UNSAFE without HER. (His tiny self, his father vanished, pre-memory...his mother his only safety and perhaps in her shock she was not very tender with him, but she was there...he must have been a desperate little two-year-old, and over the years it hardened into this mindless clutching to your mother...)

I don't think he knows what he's doing, or what he's left undone. I think his fear still roars and he can't hear you.

I don't think it's rejection, it's his limitation.

Just as if you met a dog at a pound that had been through something as a puppy that permanently changed its potential nature. And it would never be a normal dog, or love in a normal way.

love,
Hops
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on May 30, 2010, 01:53:12 PM
Hi Hops:

Thanks again for the thoughtful post.  In some respects you are right.  My dad was raised by a very domineering mother...who I'm sure loved her kids but who was ill-equipped to raise 5 children by herself.  However, my dad did have an older brother who he adored and who took on that father role.  I know my dad did not have an easy life...not at all.  He had no father; they were really poor and did not have much in life.  My heart breaks for him because of that.  I also think he was ill-prepared to have children.  My dad, I think, enjoyed the toddler stage of children's lives.  To this day, when he sees a small child in a store or somewhere, he immediately tries to get that child's attention and spends his time with them.  Even with my niece, whom he adores when she was little, he lavished attention on.  However, I think that's because children who are on that infant/toddler stage NEED that parent/grandparent.  They depend on them for everything..so it's all about that provider.  But when that child grows beyond that stage and starts to exert independence...doesn't depend on that other person for every single need, then that's when both my parents, including my dad, had trouble.  Once my niece grew beyond that stage, for example, he had no use for her (neither did my Nmom).  He never took an interest in her, never helped her with homework, etc.  The only exception was when she turned the attention on him.  He would often talk in reminiscing tones about how "remember when she was little and did this...or that?"  He never could appreciate her or myself or siblings passed that initial first stage of childhood.  He didn't know or want to be a parent during those stages...I think it was more the latter...So when attention was averted away from him (or my Nmom) and towards the child's needs, he just wouldn't have it...wouldn't participate.  I think ultimately he never wanted a relationship with anyone except my Nmom...and that was, as you say, out of fear.  He depended on her completely....and in fact, was terrified whenever myself or my brother would do or say something against her. 

So, yes, it is very very sad.  Some might say he was incapable of understanding how to be a good parent.  But..for me...based on his actions...I say he chose not to.  I say he chose the sickness that is my mother over us.  I think deep down he was an dis aware of his choice.  He just tunes the rest out.  And so, a double whammy of a loss.  He also chose to be estranged from his siblings.  Just as now, my brother an dI are estranged from my Nsis...and I am going that route when it comes to my bro who does not understand.  My Nom , not surprisingly, was estranged from her sibling.  A very, very lonely world indeed.
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: river on May 31, 2010, 07:43:22 AM
On the other hand, GREAT, that they wont be there, now she can have a genuine time. 

(sorry, no time to read the rest of the posts, couldnt resist saying this). 
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Sealynx on May 31, 2010, 09:33:01 AM
Sunblue,
I think my sister is doing a great job raising my niece to both accept and understand my N mother and aunt while knowing it is fine to protect herself. Basically what she does is validate her feelings and take her side when they intrude on the child's boundaries. It is an ongoing process.

My niece is still hurt by them, but she learns that those feelings are not wrong. The last time they visited a really nice woman from church drove them the 8 hours to my sisters. My aunt got jealous because my niece seemed to be enjoying the woman (good choice) more than her (bad choice) and she insisted they go straight back to the hotel that night and not see my niece's new room until morning. My aunt was essentially punishing her for not choosing to enjoy a sick person more than a well person!! When she cried my aunt laughed and said she was "too sensitive". We've all heard that one before!! My sister sat down with her and validated her feelings of hurt and her choice of the good woman. She explained jealousy. To this day my niece texts weekly with the woman from church and they have developed a friendship.

N's should be unable to entice or control a healthy adult. If a child has to be raised around N adults, it is important that they have validation for their healthy choices and normal reactions. A child does not have to be taught to hate in order to feel free to "avoid" and should always know her mom or a healthy adult will step in when the N oversteps a boundary. I think it would be perfectly fine to tell the child that you don't get why someone so close to them would miss their graduation because it is so important to YOU. That validates what the child is feeling and gives them an ally.

What I am getting at here is that short of NC, you can't protect a child from feeling just as bad as you do around an N, but incidents like the one you describe can used as lessons about how to handle people who aren't nice, even when they are supposed to love you. It needs to be OKAY for her to feel that there is something wrong with THEIR behavior, otherwise she will blame her self. Many of us never got this OKAY and were forced to assume that part of love was putting up with hurtful behavior.
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: river on May 31, 2010, 05:56:33 PM
Sealinx, your post blew me away just a bit, you put that so clearly.  I've copied and kept it, wanted to check with you if its ok to use it should the occasion arise?   - I dont know what occasion, but it'll be for something useful.   
If not ok, I'll just delete it.
             r. 
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on May 31, 2010, 06:45:38 PM
Yes, Seal, thank you for your post.  How important it is for someone to be there for these nieces and nephews and grandchildren to explain things and to say it's okay to feel what they're feeling.  My brother and his wife, also, do a fairly good job of dealing with this for my niece.  Of course, my niece, has always had a huge advantage in that she's always had many people who cherish and care about her----her parents, aunts, uncles, neighbhors, family friends.  As an only child, she's been adored since the day she came into this world.  She has always felt special.  She probably feels more confused than anything over why one set of grandparents won't be there for her special day. 

What a difference it would have made if someone had been there for us to explain it and to say what we were feeling about it was okay....But ultimately, I think the ultimate difference is whether there are any other people in your life who makes you feel special, cared about and loved.  It still doesn't take the place of the love of a grandparent, for example, but with so many other people focusing their love and attention on you.....I think it would be easier to get past it.

I have no doubt my niece will enjoy her graduation.  She will have all of her mom's family there and of course her parents, whom she adores.  I'll be there too.....but as with my own brother, I know it will be a more superficial presence.  I guess I'm there to represent my brother's side of the family....even though I know I don't hold much of a place in either of their hearts.  But at least I can say I did what I could to make her day special.  I also think how nice it would have been if someone had tried to make those occasions special for me in my life.  But no point in wondering.....I'm just happy my niece will not have the burden of being raised by Ns.  She already has a huge advantage as she begins the next state of her life.
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Sealynx on May 31, 2010, 11:25:36 PM
I posts\ to help my sisters here. Please keep them to refer to if they are helpful.
Sun,
My niece is an only child and my sis had her late in life so my mother is her only living grandparent at this point in time. My mother and aunt like to go visit but mostly because they are bored and when they visit my aunt just complains about how bored she is at my sisters!!...l Boredom with oneself is a real problem that no one else can fix!!

I think your niece will be fine with so many good people around her. She will learn that some of the people in your family are just strange but that you aren't and that is good...because its true!!
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Hopalong on June 01, 2010, 10:24:45 PM
((((((((Sun))))))))
Quote
I guess I'm there to represent my brother's side of the family....

How about you just go there to represent YOU?

Have your own experience of love and enjoyment.

Just take your own love with you, or mild enjoyment, or boredom, or whatever it is.
Just represent YOURSELF.

You don't have to be the Ambassadress of Pain.

Hopefully it's a lovely day. And you can people watch.

love,
Hops
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on June 01, 2010, 10:47:43 PM
Well, graduation night is O-V-E-R...LOL......It was fairly short.....It was a fairly small group after all, my brother and his wife, my niece's other grandmother and another aunt.  This afternoon I sent my niece a cookie bouquet with some balloons and a nice message.  It was okay....but I drove home feeling very sad.  I can feel my depression kicking in today.  I tried to keep it in touch and I think I did....took a couple of pictures with my niece, congratulated her, etc.

Then my brother proceeded to announce they had to make it a short night because they were leaving tomorrow morning for a trip to Hawaii!!!...Now I've been there a few times and it's one of my favorite places on this earth.  In fact, once I paid for my brother, his wife and my parents to go.  It turned out to be a trip enjoyed by all but me.  Unbeknowst to me, even though I made all the reservations 3 months ahead of time, my mom (with the help of my brother) went behind my back and changed the itinerary....which I didn't find out about until the day before my flight.  Then, when we arrived, my brother and his wife used the trip as their own personal second honeymoon....excluding me from many activities....

At any rate, what I really realized tonight, or perhaps reminded, was that I didn't have anyone.  One of the speakers at the graduation reminded the students that they will always have their family who loves them...and that family and friends are the most important thing.


You know, I know I've written this before, but I'm an avid fan of the show Lost...It ended very meaningfully....with the message of "letting go" and "moving on".  It also ended with the idea that those people who matter most to you in life, will be there for you in the afterlife.  (it's TV after all).  But that really, really touched me.  I realized that I could pick up and move to any state in the country and it wouldn't matter to anyone. 

But I also realized how fortunate my niece is....How I'm happy she has been raised with such love and care and attention .  How I'm glad she will have a better life than I or my brother.  Right now, I feel the deep depression setting in and trying to keep myself thinking about other things...hence this long post...so I apologize.

I know it's not healthy to do this....but I do really wonder why it is blessings just seem to flow for some and so few for others.  I can't help but think, "What did my brother do to deserve such riches in his life, such blessings...while I've struggled all my life...yet we were raised by the same N and co-d D...I guess iit's one of those little mysteries.

But I do want t oend on a positive note.  This has been a hard day for me...and I so appreciate your kind thoughts and feedback.  I am listening...I am trying to change...I am trying not to dwell on the negative....I am grateful for lall of you on this board.

Thanks you!
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Hopalong on June 01, 2010, 11:07:05 PM
You need a PHamily, Sun...

And deserve one.

Where are you going to go to start meeting people, opening yourself up to lots and lots of new experiences with new people?

That's where your PHamily is.

They've got a chair that will fit you just right.

hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: sunblue on June 02, 2010, 01:14:21 PM
Thanks Hops...

Not sure what the PH stands for....but my guess is it's people out there who are in no way related to you by blood...LOL...Probably a good thing....I saw an interview recently where the doctor was saying that phrase, "blood is thicker than water" is just not true.  He was talking in the context of raising children and he was saying what really matters is just having people who love and care about you.

Phantastic!

Title: Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
Post by: Sealynx on June 03, 2010, 10:26:17 PM
Sun,
I think some of dealing with the "why" we don't have wonderful lives is about upbringing. The other answer may lie in spiritual beliefs and service to others. I have used my spiritual beliefs to reason through many of these questions.