Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JustKathy on November 04, 2010, 04:33:06 PM
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Today's is my Co-Father's 80th birthday. Five years ago I would have told you that I'd be taking him out to lunch, buying him gifts, celebrating with him. But instead, I didn't even send a card. And I'm NOT going to call him. After all that he's done to hurt me, I honestly don't ever want to hear his voice again. I'm sitting here hating myself for being so cruel when I know I shouldn't be, but I can't help it. He's always enjoyed being fussed over on his birthday, and 80 is a huge milestone. He's sitting at home wondering why his daughter isn't calling him, and it probably hurts. But MY pain runs too deep, and I can't pick up the phone and act all happy after all that he's done. Whatever hurt he's feeling over not getting a phone call can't begin to compare to the 50 years of mistreatment that I endured.
But here's what really has me upset about all of this. I don't think he has even slightest bit of a clue as to why I'm NC. He absolutely does NOT get it. When he told me that I had been disinherited, he laughed it off and said, "Oh well, you know how your mother is," then proceeded to make small talk about his vegetable garden. I tried to tell him how much he had hurt me, and he thought I was mad about not getting any money. I couldn't make him understand that it had NOTHING to do with money. It had to do with playing favorites. When you take one of your three children out of your will, that's the same as sending them a T-shirt that says "Guess what? I don't love you."
Has anyone else experienced this complete cluelessness with their co-father? I honestly can't tell if he knows in his heart that he was a bad father, and is putting on his "Rain Man" face. Or is he really, genuinely stumped and not getting it? Do co-fathers know that they're hurting their children, but are willing to do it in the interest of keeping their beloved N-wife/queen happy? I just wish I could read him, but he's a blank slate. When I've called him on his actions, he goes into Rain Man mode - "I buy my underwear at K-Mart, I buy my underwear at K-Mart, bla bla bla, I can't hear yoooooooooooooooo." :(
Kathy
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Dearest Kathy,
The hurt that you feel is justified. For what it's worth, I validate your feelings.
Please do not hate yourself. You are not cruel. Rather, you are now healthy enough to make a choice & you have chosen your own feelings instead of what a daughter "should" do. That is a very healthy choice. You have chosen to respect your own feelings & preserve your own sanity & self esteem over a "should".
Your F has been very unloving & hurtful towards you, so for you to overlook that reality & ignore your own pain would be very self destructive. You are a different person than the one you were 5 years ago. Over the last 5 years, your eyes have been opened to the reality that your parents are Ns. Now that you know they are Ns, you simply can't go back to the person you were 5 years ago. You have grown, you have seen the truth & you can't go back to what you were. So, yes, this is going to be a very different B-day for both NF & you. And it really, really hurts. I bet you wish things could be different than what they are, but that's not reality. You know what the reality is & that's why you can't celebrate his B-day the way you used to or the way you wish you could.
So, it is a sad day because you realize that your NF (& NM) cannot be the parents or the people you wish they could be. I think this is something that adult children of Ns frequently mourn & grieve: We grieve that we don't have parents with whom we can give & receive mutual and reciprocal love & we mourn this void.
Try to do something nice for yourself today so you can perhaps lessen some of your pain by giving yourself some self love.
xoxo,
ann
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Thank you so much, Ann. I'm going to print out your post and save it. There is a lot of wisdom there. You made me feel a LOT better.
Kathy :) (Darn I hate the creepy looking smileys on this board, but you get the idea).
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Kathy,
Good to hear you feel better. I think an ACON's grief & mourning is not sufficiently addressed. If acquaintances & "friends" treated us the way our NMs, NFs & N relatives do, we would eventually terminate the relationship & move on. But, because it's family, we hang in there, take abuse, wonder 'what's wrong' with us & ruminate on this stuff for years.
IMO, once we know that our relatives are Ns, our world view changes: we can no longer look at our family, friends or ourselves in the same way. IMO, we can't go back even if we wanted to because now we see the truth. And the truth is sad & it hurts: our FOO was/is F'd up!! And so, we need to mourn & grieve the loss of many things: the loss of hope that NFOO will change, the loss of our childhoods, the loss of love, etc.
But, amid all the loss, what we do gain is our selves (& our voice), perhaps for the first time. So, it's very sad that we were forced to trade our selves for the illusions of feeling loved & feeling like we belong to this family. We need to mourn & grieve these losses, but also celebrate finding us.
Hang in there, Kathy. IMO, this really is a very positive break thru for you, but, dang, these growing pains hurt!!
xoxo,
ann
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I concur with Ann! It hurts to realize that we were never loved, nor welcomed, in the houses we grew up in. (I can't call them "homes" because they never felt like homes. They were hardly better than war zones where we battled for just simple survival every day.)
Bones
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I concur with all that's been said.
I found out that feeling guilty about those kinds of "shoulds" was actually a warning sign, for me. It was a warning that I was about to trade in all my progress for the slim probability that "this time" my interaction would be different than in the past; that I was hoping for, expecting, what my rational mind knew would never happen. And that it was precisely my ability to feel guilty - to be concerned about other's feelings, in contrast to my parent's lack of concern about mine - that kept me stuck, locked in to the perpetual cycle of setting myself up to be hurt again.
Yes, there is much to be mourned. One of those sad things, is that we become reluctant to take those kinds of risks - trusting that there will be reciprocity in caring for each other - with other people, because of our learned experience with "those kind" of parents. I'm finding it is precisely that kind of risk-taking (with other people) that does eventually heal those old wounds, helps "right" our self-perception and remove the self-condemnation about choosing to keep ourselves safe from major hurt and pain with "the other kind" of people who simply can't or don't bother caring about anyone but themselves.
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And that it was precisely my ability to feel guilty - to be concerned about other's feelings, in contrast to my parent's lack of concern about mine - that kept me stuck, locked in to the perpetual cycle of setting myself up to be hurt again.
Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful replies. Phoenix, you hit in the nail on the head with the word "contrast." I know that I need to stop beating myself for feeling guilty and be glad that I have those feelings, even if I don't act on them. It IS in contrast with my parents complete lack of empathy, and for that reason, I should actually be grateful that despite being raised in that viper pit, I was able to grow up with normal human feelings and emotions - the ability to love, and share, and feel empathy towards others, and have guilty feelings when I've hurt someone. It could have been worse. I could be sitting here, an N, like my mother, completely devoid of any emotion. Given the choice, I'd rather feel guilty, and know that at least I'm a normal (as much as is possible) human being.
K
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(((((((((Kathy)))))))))))
This too shall pass. Sometimes we just need a reminder of how the mind-games work, to avoid getting caught up in them, again. That's where friends are real helpful!
There are, I think, different "flavors" of guilt. Been thinking about this lately and how guilt connects with boundaries, over-responsibility, letting go... even self-destructive tendencies... and even how guilt seems to prevent the healing of broken hearts. There is "fair" guilt and "unfair" guilt... for starters. Sometimes it's pushed at us from other people and sometimes we do it to ourselves.
This is just pieces of pondering... nowhere close to a "theory" yet! :D
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It's interesting that I feel absolutely NO guilt for going NC with my NM, but do with my F. With M, all I have to do is read one of her hateful letters to remind me that she's been put where she belongs - out with the trash. I have no regrets whatsoever for ceasing contact with her.
But with my Co-F, it's a lot harder, because I don't know what, if anything, he's feeling. In the case of NM, she hates me, I'm evil, it's very black-and-white. But I just can't get a read on Co-F. I have NO idea if he feels any guilt for what he's done to me, or if he's guilt-free because he was defending his N-wife. My guilt would go away entirely if I knew with 100% certainty that he had the same lack of empathy that NM has. But I just can't figure him out. Whenever he's boxed into a corner and forced to confront what he's done, he just goes into his loopy Rain Man mode and starts blabbering about the weather, so I just don't know. When I was younger I actually thought that he might be mildly retarded, because of his tendency to deal with situations by turning into Forrest Gump. "Life is like a box of chocolates, do dee do dee do." I've tried to confront him on his actions, and so has my husband, and he immediately puts his fingers in his ears and starts "la la la la la I can't hear you." I have a feeling that he'll go to his grave without ever revealing his true feelings, so I'm afraid I may always have some internal conflict going on about my decision to go NC with him.
I swear, I wish he would just tell me that he doesn't love me, and set me free.
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Dear Kath:
"But I just can't figure him out."
I think you really hit on something here. I have found this to be true with Ns: We just can't figure them out. We can't understand them & it makes no sense. I've come to the point where if I have spent a long time trying to 'figure them out', but I still haven't done so, I let it go. It's not easy to let it go, especially when you love that person, but, letting it go alleviates my feelings of nagging self torture. I can't get inside that person'd head & I don't understand them, but, that's how it is, so I accept it. And by accepting it, it changes the relationship & creates some breathing room & choice: I can continue the relationship or not, but I accept that I can't fathom this person. I found this attitude to be very freeing because it's my choice about how I want to handle the relationship.
"I have a feeling that he'll go to his grave without ever revealing his true feelings"
Kathy, this may be true. There's really nothing you can do if he decides not to real his true feelings. On the other hand, you could ask him outright what his feeling are.
"so I'm afraid I may always have some internal conflict going on about my decision to go NC with him." This might also be true.
Do you have a T with whom you can discuss this?
xoxo,
ann
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Kathy,
You are suffering over this. It sounds like a very painful moment.
Playing debbil's advocate here and I do not judge either decision.
But I wondered if it would be helpful to you to ask it this way:
What if you sat with the notion of sending him a birthday wish (a "belated" card)
but completely detached the sending of it from yourself, from his response to it?
IOW, what if you found a piece of feeling within yourself that is still, despite it all,
glad that your father was born? That he has lived, and had a life?
Would you be able to conjure that up in a simple way?
Can you just ... privately (without focusing on what it would convey for his benefit,
or how he might interpret it) ... ask yourself, do I -- alone, being the person I
authentically am or want to be -- do I want to extend a kind thought to this old man?
Depending on that answer, you may feel more sure about whether you want to
send him something about his 80th birthday.
In spite of how much he's hurt you, and probably because being 60 this year is
introducing me to a whole lot more identification with being "old" than I've had before,
I wonder if you might be struggling with this because deep inside, you see that after
all, an 80 year old...is vulnerable.
Not like a child in innocence, at all. But, like a child in vulnerability. And maybe in
spite of the frustration and anger (all legitimate) -- you can't take pleasure in
withholding this gesture. Because you don't want to hurt him. But partly (you're
human and YOU'RE hurt), you do.
This may be way, WAY off base.
But if it's not, there's nothing in the world wrong with a belated but "clean" card,
that simply wishes an old man a moment of happiness. (Whether "deserved" or not!)
I think that's what's troubling you. You've decided he doesn't deserve it.
And you might be right.
Hope this doesn't make it harder. You have my compassion either way.
Hops
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Hey Kathy... while I think Hops' is on to something as a positive action that might resolve your feelings... something else occurred to me that you might want to consider reflecting on; if not right now - at some point.
It could be, in your F's reality, that he is just as much a victim of Nm. And he's chosen a different way than you have to deal what could be extremely uncomfortable emotional conflicts - for his own reasons. He may not realize this. From the outside, it may look as if he *could* have, *should* have chosen differently but from his inside, he might have felt that he really had no choice. And the resulting emotions could be just devastating to him... though he is apparently capable of not dealing with those emotions. Of denying them completely - to carve out a "safe place" for himself.
That is the whole point of dependence, after all. Whether it's dependence on an N, an alcoholic, or someone who simply brings out the worst in oneself. One trades a whole lot of one's SELF - for a kind of negotiated, provisional truce or safety - and it remains precarious; vulnerable to the whim and pleasure of the one who is depended on. And if that person who is depended on, is off their rocker, well - I imagine that's a very uneasy sort of safety. I can also imagine that in his private, quiet alone moments... he doesn't really like himself much but does accept a form of "helplessness" to do anything about what he probably sees as water over the dam. Too late now kinda thing.
Understand - I DON'T KNOW. But I do have a pretty vivid imagination and some insight into the dependent half of these kinds of relationships. FWIW.
From your perspective, it's a huge ouch (under the nagging sense of guilt) because it feels like and effectively is, a form of betrayal and abandonment. Yeah; my Dad did that in a more dramatic form.... actually leaving and telling me I would be better off with my wacko mom. Well. I did survive it. I did sort it out. And I did have a chance to tell him, to make it clear to him that it really wasn't his fault that he couldn't deal with her either; he couldn't live like that - he would've self-destructed; I forgave this. Only after much work, remembering, writing, and even parsing out where in my own emotions I might be making assumptions or not seeing things clearly. Your Dad seems to have made a different choice and I think you might be able to help yourself resolve your feelings of betrayal... if you try to put on his shoes.. play detective through your memories... and imagine what must've been going through his mind and feelings.... and how he came to sacrifice part of himself - and his relationship with you - for the good graces of the fickle, evil queen.
Co-Ds tend to be the most pitiable and miserable in this warped FOO equation... and also usually, the least aware of how warped all this is.
Maybe this is all wrong and doesn't fit your situation. I'm not invested in being right! LOL! but I think it might be helpful to you, in the long run, to at least wonder if he didn't find himself in a trap that he couldn't get out of. So I'm going out on a limb to post it; please compost and ignore if it's a tangent that doesn't apply.
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On the other hand, you could ask him outright what his feeling are.
I have, and he just goes into his Rain Man loop and starts talking about the fruit market and the apricots he bought, and anything but the actual subject. He's a complete emotional void.
I do have a therapist, but stopped seeing her a few months ago after she started siding with my F and defending him. When my father insisted that I send NM a get well card after her cancer diagnosis, I didn’t want to do it, but the T convinced me to do it to make my father happy. She kept telling me, "Don't do it for her, do it for your Father." And now, I would give anything to take that card back. I wish I had never sent it. She was a good therapist on many levels, but once she started defending my F on his actions, I felt she was doing more harm than good.
Hops, I understand what you're saying, and I wish I could do that, but I just can't. This last year my F has hurt me so badly. I don't even have words for the pain He has caused me.
Ever since my NM was diagnosed with "terminal cancer," he has become more evil than she is. The first thing he did was to remove me from the will to make her happy. Not only did he not feel remorse, but justified it by saying it had to be done as a punishment for "that thing you have with your mother." He doesn't even get what "that thing" was. He also claimed that he had no say in it, (which does fit Amber's theory of the Co-D being trapped and truly having no choice). Regardless, "that thing" I had with my mother was abuse, Dad. It was CHILD ABUSE. My husband got on the phone with him and let him have it, and asked him how he could hurt his daughter this way. F replied with, "What's the big deal? It's not like she's my son."
And still, I forgave him. I managed to tell myself that it was okay, because I always knew that the GC would be the sole heir, and that F was brainwashed by NM, and bla bla bla. I made excuses for him and forgave him, just like I did when I was teenager and he refused to give me $20 bill when I was homeless, because NM wouldn't let him.
One thing kept me going and let allowed me to forgive him. There was only one item that I wanted to inherit, and that was his Emmy award. After working my entire life in the entertainment industry, that Emmy meant so much to me. I was SO proud of him for winning it, and he had promised it to me many times over. I had made arrangements in my own will to ensure that it would stay in the family, as it was a treasured family heirloom. The week after I got the news about the will, he told me that NM had "made him" give the Emmy to my brother. That's when I absolutely went to pieces. I tried to make him understand how much he had hurt me, and again got excuses defending NM, and how it belonged with his SON. My husband finally called him and told him that I was distraught, and begged him to get it back from my brother and to make things right. Again, he showed NO remorse, and went on and on about it belonging to his SON, and that he just didn’t understand why I was so upset. Worse, he said that I was just jealous of by brother and to "get over it." Hubby told him to never call our house again.
Two days later, he's back on the phone, acting like nothing happened and leaving messages about his vegetable garden. And why does he persist in calling me? Because my brother won't take his calls. He has all the money and all the stuff, and no longer has any use for the old man. Meanwhile, I get an email from my sister saying that my brother's N wife (who my father HATES) is using the Emmy to hold her jewelry and bragging that she has willed it to her brother in Maine so he can display it in his restaurant.
Sorry that this is going so long. This just hurts like a knife through my heart. I can't stop myself from feeling guilty, because in spite of everything, I managed to grow up a loving and caring person. But there's only so much that I can forgive. I want the pain to stop now, and the only way to make the pain go away is to make them go away. All of them.
I can't pity him just because he got old. We all get old. I'm getting older too. My parents spent 50 years abusing me. I can't forgive them, even a little, because nature took it's course and they aged. When my T advised me to send my mother that damn card, I asked myself, "If I were diagnosed with terminal cancer, would my F call, or send me a card?" It's a no brainer. NO, he wouldn't. He would say, "Oh well, that's a shame," and start talking about the GC.
Kathy
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On the other hand, you could ask him outright what his feeling are.
I have, and he just goes into his Rain Man loop and starts talking about the fruit market and the apricots he bought, and anything but the actual subject. He's a complete emotional void.
Yes, I remember that.
I do have a therapist, but stopped seeing her a few months ago after she started siding with my F and defending him.
Hops, I understand what you're saying, and I wish I could do that, but I just can't. This last year my F has hurt me so badly. I don't even have words for the pain He has caused me.
Yup, I remember that too.
This just hurts like a knife through my heart. I can't stop myself from feeling guilty, because in spite of everything, I managed to grow up a loving and caring person. But there's only so much that I can forgive. I want the pain to stop now, and the only way to make the pain go away is to make them go away. All of them.
I can't pity him just because he got old. We all get old. I'm getting older too. My parents spent 50 years abusing me. I can't forgive them, even a little, because nature took it's course and they aged. When my T advised me to send my mother that damn card, I asked myself, "If I were diagnosed with terminal cancer, would my F call, or send me a card?" It's a no brainer. NO, he wouldn't. He would say, "Oh well, that's a shame," and start talking about the GC.
Kathy,
You've given this a lot of thought. Sounds like you tried to do as much as you can to improve the situation. So, go with your gut. Do what you must do to preserve your peace of mind & sanity. Sounds like you're dealing with a bunch of Ns who can't give an inch. Life is short. Do what makes YOU happy.
xoxox,
ann
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Yep, life is short. Too short to sit around and tolerate abuse.
I'll tell you one thing. I'd be willing to bet that most Ns who live to old age die a very lonely death. I think this is one of the things that has caused my F to undergo such a personality change. When NM got diagnosed with "terminal cancer," she expected a huge fuss to be made of it. This was the role she was born to play, that of the dying queen, straight out of a Cecil B. Demille film. Laying in the gilded bed, slaves fanning her with palm frawns, friends and family at her bedside praying over her. But no one showed up. Quite the opposite. Her sister (a doctor) called her a drama queen. Her son (the GC) blew off Christmas day and went to Hawaii with his wife. She went into a rage over this, and of course, he had to defend her.
I think, after watching this, the reality may be kicking in that he will die a lonlier death than she will. His N-wife (assuming she really does have cancer) will go before him. His children have cast him off. Lesson learned: what you get out of life is only as good as you give. If you can't or won't be there for your children when they need you, don't expect them to be there for YOU. I've always said that if my NM lives to old age and needs care, that I will give her exactly what she gave me.
NOTHING.
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I hear you, Kathy.
And I agree with Ann...you have to do what is right for you.
What a deep slice, that things have to go to "the son" -- regardless of what they might mean to a daughter.
Ow. Oh I can relate to that.
You take care of your own heart's healing. That sounds right to me whatever form it takes.
Bah humbug. And all hail, PHamilies.
love,
Hops
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Thanks Hops. Doesn't it seem that the GC is always male? It's been my observation, from this board and general reading on the subject, that if there is a male child, that child will be the GC. Ns place great value on a son, the male heir, the one who will carry on the family name, etc etc. I swear, when my brother was born, the clouds parted and the angels sang . . . "a son, a son, a son." Both my sister and I achieved a higher level of education and employment, but still, we're "just girls."
Well guess what. I happen to LOVE being "just a girl." :D
Kathy
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Hey Kathy,
I want to apologize for using the "F" word - you know, "forgiveness". Even tho' this is the word that gets used all the time to describe what I really meant, I had enough of my own issues about the connotations tagged to that word: as if it's a "get out of jail free" card or an absolution of responsibility or a "they couldn't help it". Those connotations are not what I meant to suggest as being helpful. I've got my own list of "crimes" against myself as a child, for which there is no stature of limitations, after which "it doesn't matter" anymore. I should know better than to toss that F word around casually... when people suggested it to me, I felt like I was wrong-bad for not being able to be charitable enough to "forgive" in some christ-like way. I also faced a lot of self-imposed unfair guilt about that. I wasn't that charitable in reality. Pain'll do that to a person.
But there is some peace; a place beyond the pain where your choice of relationship style (LC, NC, whatever) no longer stirs up guilty feelings, or wishes for things to be different. Not saying you'll ever forget specific things nor that they'll stop hurting completely. You'll still stub your toe on these things from time to time and it'll hurt; it just won't start up a whole bunch of other stuff again anymore. It won't be a "what's wrong with me" moment (guilt)... or even an "those evil people" moment. It'll just be that your toe hurts for a while, then the pain subsides. Happens to everyone - it's no one's fault anymore. No one "made" me stub my toe.
That's all I was suggesting - that you might be able to find that place - by looking at your experiences from someone else's perspective. Sometimes, this works.
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I want to apologize for using the "F" word - you know, "forgiveness".
No need to apologize. I knew what you were trying to say. I use the word often myself, when it's not really the word I want to use. Unfortunately, the word that I want to use usually escapes me. I'll often say "I can't forgive them for _____," when I have no intention of forgiving them. That's just the word that comes out, for lack of a better one. I'm not sure what the right word really is. I have a problem with that sometimes in writing about my feelings, especially describing the things that my N parents have done. It's very hard to find the words. Odd, because I'm a writer, but writing fiction, and writing about your own pain are two very different things.
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Odd, because I'm a writer, but writing fiction, and writing about your own pain are two very different things.
I'm not so sure about this. I know from a personal perspective, that they really do appear to be "different voices"**... saying different things. And that I wouldn't want anyone to read the repetitive, vengeful, raging pain-purge journals I've written. They are, to me, kinda embarassing. Eventually, I'll have another bonfire (I got rid of a lot of "early" paintings this way; I never wanted to be judged artistically on the kind of visual art therapy I indulged myself in.)
On the other hand - in the visual arts, specifically in figure drawing/painting - we're cautioned to be aware of and try to avoid an unconscious reflex: that is letting a "self-portrait" superimpose itself on the subject... or emerge in places in the drawing...
and aren't beginning writers often counselled to write about what they know about?
**
I think this concept also shows up in what's known as "self" psychology - the concept of the personal narrative. And that's extended to the therapy process, where therapy is defined as developing a "new" personal narrative from the old one. "The story of me" that lives in my journals has a narrative; I played with the idea of trying to develop that into a fictional structure - written from the 3rd person. And my idea behind that, was that I'd already plumbed the depths of my agony in the journals... but what would it look like to someone else? Someone not part of the FOO-games? A chance stranger who discovered the story?
For me, it was a creative dead-end. As much as my fingers spew characters on this website - I'm still less a writer than I am a visual artist. But the effort - the attempt - was very much worth it. Because just trying to see my "story" from the 3rd person opened up a permanent (I think - is one ever sure about these things?) perspective wall that I could "throw my emotional spaghetti" at... and see what "sticks".
Maybe you'd be better at this than me? Or maybe just the attempt might help?
LOL about the writer who can't find the right words! I used to look up words in the dictionary - then consult the thesaurus - and still not have a word that sounded right to the wounded, feral cat part of me. I think we have to make up words - then write our own definitions. Like Hops' "phamily"...
Gotta run - I've got new kinds of dramas (MIL's medical issues) to go deal with... but hugs to you & I hope you're starting to feel a bit better.
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I'm not so sure about this. I know from a personal perspective, that they really do appear to be "different voices"**... saying different things. And that I wouldn't want anyone to read the repetitive, vengeful, raging pain-purge journals I've written. They are, to me, kinda embarassing.
I understand what you're saying here. What I write on my own, in my journal, is MUCH different from what I write here. My journaling is much like yours, filled with rage and pain-purging. Here, I try to be more "professional," and in that case, the right word very often escapes me. My journal looks more like "f%$4k sh^t b@astard scum hateyoub!tch garble garble evil evil evil." On the board I'll use what may not be the perfect word, but the best one that comes to mind, which IMO is often the wrong word.
Your concept of making up words to describe our feelings is a very good. In a way, it could be therapeutic. I like that!
Kathy