Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Twoapenny on March 07, 2011, 04:58:36 PM
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Hi all,
Sorry, more questions! My sister left her husband about four months ago now. She still has nowhere 'proper' to live (she is renting a room through work at the moment), still hasn't saved any money to get anywhere to live, still hasn't seen a solicitor to organise selling the house she owns with him or getting a divorce sorted out. She has no car and asked me today to give her a lift to the supermarket, which is walking distance from where she is staying. I said no. Her three adult children - 18, 20 and 22, are all living on others' goodwill - sofas, spare bedrooms and so on. Only one of them works. Her daughter is pregnant, depressed, not working and has no money, other than money her boyfriend gives her from time to time. The youngest boy is boasting about sleeping with his girlfriend without using protection.
Normally I would feel like I need to deal with all of this, help, advise, offer loans, a place to stay, meals, help with looking for work and so on. I have no desire to get involved, offer to do anything or even listen sympathetically. What does this mean? Am I getting really selfish? Or is this a more normal response? I'm in one of those situations where I don't know what 'normal' would be!
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I wouldn't normally respond .....but...
sounds normal to me. All these people have choices and it seems they're choosing not to be responsible for (or with) their lives. Very sad, but there's not much you can do to get someone to take responsibility!
You also know these people and you've tried in the past. That's enough. Time to look after you.
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Tupp...
you just don't have room to fix her.
You are fixing your own life, and your son's.
You just can't.
(Doesn't mean you wouldn't like to be brimming with strength and time and focus and resources you could lavish on her -- like watering a desert -- but you're not.)
I think it's sad about their situation/s, but I also think it's promising that you're not hooked by it.
Forgive yourself. Your detachment is natural. When you're drained, you're dry.
xo
Hops
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I have mixed feelings about your question, I don't think the answer is simple, I think it's personal. In a well-functioning family (in my opinion) it is healthy and normal to help family. In an unhealthy family (IMO) people are estranged and distanced from each other.
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I think you have to look at it like this, Tupp.
Are you helping or enabling her, as the goal?
If you were in that same position, you'd do things differently, and you'd get a job, walk to the store and manage things yourself.
Helping your sister might actually help her remain powerless and dependent, so.......
by saying NO, maybe you're forcing her to find her own underpinnings?
That's how I see it.
It's not like you aren't working, raising a young son on your own, renting your own place, caring for it, maintaining a vehicle and managing all the paperwork and responsibility that goes with. You do it. So can she.
She's got nothing to care for, but herself, and letting her figure out how to do that isn't being cruel, IMO.
Enabling her dependence, might be.
Lighter
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(((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))
As I was reading your description of the situation, I was thinking about what I learned in AlAnon regarding family members and friends who are dysfunctional...detach with love. Your young son's welfare and needs have a higher priority than these adults who are demanding everyone else bail them out of their messes (that they refuse to accept responsibility for...and will continue to re-create repeatedly because they will continue to believe that others will clean up their messes FOR them).
Your first and only responsibility is to your son. You can't be the white knight on the steed, or Supergirl with the red cape, or Wonder Woman with the Magic Lasso, saving everyone else...especially if these others are ADULTS who flat-out refuse to take any responsibility for themselves and their own messes that they continue to create. Where does it stop? Where will they stop?
You're not being selfish. You are being healthy and setting healthy boundaries AND you are teaching your son how to set healthy boundaries while being able to recognize your own human limitations. He will be learning that no one is super-human, which is a good lesson we all need to remember.
Bones
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No, Tupps - it's not selfish to have an instinct for self-preservation... to take care of you and yours first... it's a responsibility to yourself, to not spread yourself too thin. It's normal to wonder if giving help will actually, truly help... and to be a bit a reluctant to open yourself to expectations of more, more, more - sans clear boundaries.
Your sister needs to find her own motivation, get up and go, to help herself and figure out for herself what she needs, wants and go get it. I struggle with this, too - with my daughters. I have to constantly restrain myself from riding to the rescue because I have finally seen, that ultimately the message in that rescue is - I don't believe you can do this for yourself, so I'm going to do it for you. That contradicts what I really want - which is for them to develop the confidence in themselves that they can make good choices and take care of themselves. They really don't want Mommy hovering over them, helping, doing for them. One D in particular, judges herself way too harshly for actually needing help from time to time. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree...
What they DO want however, is to know that I care about their trials and tribulations. They do want the security of knowing that I want to help... but that I'm letting go of that process to enable them to spread their own wings, stand up for themselves, and will comfort them the best I can when it doesn't go the way they hope it will.
By standing aside, compassionately, you are helping your sister face, come to grips with, and begin to deal with her own responsibilities herself. That's not something one person can actually "give" to another - you can only point out the path (and only when asked) and then get out of their way.
That said, what Muffin said about normal families helping each other out - I tend to lean that direction too. And I want to help... but what I've learned the hard way is to wait until I'm asked - and then make sure both of us know clearly what's being asked for and to take a day or two to think about how I feel about it - to ask my own intuition whether I'm just being used or if I'm enabling, whether I can ask for a result from my help... whether that's a realistic expectation. And with my Ds, it's finally now possible to talk openly about that and also to explain my own limitations... because they are there and there are very real consequences of my "help" for me; there is always an impact on me. And the emotional ones are the most "expensive", I find.
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Wow you guys are always so good at this sort of thing. It's like having a whole load of therapists to consult with!
Guest, thank you. It sounds so different when someone else says it to you, rather than thinking it in your own head if that makes sense? I felt bad refusing to take her to the supermarket. If she'd been ill or something I would happily have done it (or if I'd been going anyway I wouldn't have minded picking stuff up for her). But it would have meant re-arranging my plans to fit it in and I know she can get there without me. I still felt bad though, even though I didn't think I was really being unreasonable.
Hops, thank you. I actually feel like I'm on top of my situation at the moment, which is a real rarity. A big part of that is that huge de-cluttering spree you encouraged me to go on. It's really made life easier and given me more space in my head as well as my home. But part of that is that I want to start having time for me again - I've not had that for so long now. And I really want to preserve that time and make it important, because I'm always last on the list. And that was what flashed through my head when she asked for a lift; I could have taken her when my son was out for two hours in the afternoon but I really wanted to sit with my feet up and watch a movie! It still felt wrong? odd? putting myself first. But I think I should? I just worry about getting like my mum and always putting myself first, whatever the situation. I suppose it's about getting the balance right. Thank you.
Muffin, I think that really sums it up. I feel like I get drawn into other people's situations. I don't want to do that anymore. Thank you.
TT, I like that song! Who is it by? I didn't recognise the lyrics. I get the idea of being in seasons. Thank you.
Lighter, I think I need to read more about helping and enabling. Maybe that is where I go wrong, because I muddle the two up? Or just find it hard to differentiate, perhaps? I see what you're saying though, none of them will sort themselves out if I try and do it for them.
Bonesie, I really like that idea of detaching with love. That makes a lot of sense. I suppose I look at them and I do see a lot of unhealthiness about them. But I feel kind of bad because I feel like it wasn't their fault. My sister was really badly abused and her husband was/is abusive as well, so her kids have grown up in a similar way. I think that's why it's harder, because I can see why they do the things they do. And like you say, it's harder to walk away from someone you love than someone you hate - and I do love my sis and her kids to bits, but gosh, they wear me out sometimes! So it's time to put some barriers up. Thank you.
Phoenix, I think what you said about waiting to be asked to help is something I should remember and keep in my head. People know I am generally happy to help out and willing to lend a hand, and I'm pretty approachable, so it wouldn't be hard for them to ask for help. I need to remember that and stop jumping in and doing things. Thank you.
Thank you all of you, as always! xx
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((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Glad to help anytime!
FYI, about the song, "Turn, Turn, Turn", you are right, TT, that the lyrics came from the Book of Ecclesiastes. Pete Seeger wrote the music and The Byrds made it a hit.
Bones
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Thank you for the song info I will have a look out for it :)
On the subject of families - aarrgghhh! My sis and neice are arguing with each other via text again. I have had repeated texts from both all morning about the other. I called both - left a message for my neice saying she needs to talk to her mum directly and not keeping faffing around like this. I had several missed calls from my sis so I rang her back and said the same thing to her - she burst into tears and hung up on me.
I am in the zone!! I am sitting here feeling like I am in the wrong. I know in my head I am not. They need to sort this out together, not just keep having the same argument and contacting me about it. I am busy during the day with my son and have a bad cold at the minute, which they both know about, but there is never any thought for me, my time or my situation. So I am putting my boundaries up. There is no point in me just agreeing with everything they both say, but this is what they both want. My opinion is that they need to talk to each other about this and work it out between themselves. It's not for me to tell them what to do, I think they have both been unreasonable with the other one at times and need to deal with that themselves. That is basically all I have said to them, and I was calm and reasonable in my tone etc. So in my head I know this is alright, but I have that old feeling of sickness in my stomach, fuzzy headedness, shakiness, the sense that I have been a 'bad girl' and I am being mean and selfish. I know I'm not but my body is not catching up with my head!
I also know what will happen next. Neither of them will contact me now. If I don't contact them then they will say/think it's because I don't care, I'm not interested etc. I love them both but I don't want to be part of this anymore. My life has felt so much calmer and more ordered lately, so much more that it's mine rather than other people's, you know? So I don't want to get involved in this big saga that's basically like two spoilt twelve year olds who need to be put in their bedrooms until they've learnt how to behave.
Thank you all for listening. I don't know where I'd be without you xxx
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Maybe... the sick feeling is little Penny saying she doesn't want to hear or be involved in any more of this! She's put up with enough of it for one life time. The phrase that comes to my mind, is "Spare me the gory details - what are YOU gonna do about it?"
Because, their problem is not your problem, Penny. You're entitled to your feelings about all of it - even the one that wishes there was something you could do and being upset that they're not resolving it like adults. That's the empathy kicking in and your real caring and concern for each of them. But the feelings themselves don't obligate you to breaking up and settling the disagreement, do they? The role of "peacemaker" is one of those thankless jobs... and right now, since the fracas doesn't involve you... you don't have to volunteer yourself for a job that'll make Little Penny feel awful and scared again. Within your boundaries, you already have peace. Little Penny needs that.
Little Penny might also be wanting protection... And when Big Penny stands guard over those boundaries and keeps the arguing at a distance despite her concerns... you are providing Little Penny with one of the things she craves the most. That's probably a new and unfamiliar experience for her - being defended and protected and being able to trust that she is SAFE.
((((((((((Penny)))))))))))
It's OK. It'll be alright. Sis and D will work through this - their own way - and even if it's not the best way... they really have to do it all by themselves and you are not the default referree. They may not even hear your sound advice, you know? Not until they stop yelling at each other.
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Phoenix, thank you so much, I will keep reading and re-reading that. I had forgotten about little Penny for a while now? I'm not sure why, hadn't really noticed until you mentioned her just now. I will ponder that!
A miracle just occured. My sis texted me and apologised for hanging up the phone and said she loves me. This has never happened before, it's always me that has to sort the problems out and make up after a row. I nearly fell off my chair. This boundary thing seems to be working??!! Wow. I am a bit shell shocked - I've changed my usual response to a situation, thought I'd made it worse - but it looks like it might have made things better? I might need to go out for a little walk!! Or have a lie down :)
Thank you Phoenix. I'll probably write more after I've had a little think, my head is swimming a bit at the minute! (((((Phoenix))))))
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Thank you for the song info I will have a look out for it :)
On the subject of families - aarrgghhh! My sis and neice are arguing with each other via text again. I have had repeated texts from both all morning about the other. I called both - left a message for my neice saying she needs to talk to her mum directly and not keeping faffing around like this. I had several missed calls from my sis so I rang her back and said the same thing to her - she burst into tears and hung up on me.
I am in the zone!! I am sitting here feeling like I am in the wrong. I know in my head I am not. They need to sort this out together, not just keep having the same argument and contacting me about it. I am busy during the day with my son and have a bad cold at the minute, which they both know about, but there is never any thought for me, my time or my situation. So I am putting my boundaries up. There is no point in me just agreeing with everything they both say, but this is what they both want. My opinion is that they need to talk to each other about this and work it out between themselves. It's not for me to tell them what to do, I think they have both been unreasonable with the other one at times and need to deal with that themselves. That is basically all I have said to them, and I was calm and reasonable in my tone etc. So in my head I know this is alright, but I have that old feeling of sickness in my stomach, fuzzy headedness, shakiness, the sense that I have been a 'bad girl' and I am being mean and selfish. I know I'm not but my body is not catching up with my head!
I also know what will happen next. Neither of them will contact me now. If I don't contact them then they will say/think it's because I don't care, I'm not interested etc. I love them both but I don't want to be part of this anymore. My life has felt so much calmer and more ordered lately, so much more that it's mine rather than other people's, you know? So I don't want to get involved in this big saga that's basically like two spoilt twelve year olds who need to be put in their bedrooms until they've learnt how to behave.
Thank you all for listening. I don't know where I'd be without you xxx
(((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny)))))))))))))))
With the situation of both of them texting you about their current conflict, it sounds like the same old Triangulation Dance! (Been there, done that regarding dealing with people who attempt to force me to side with them against their current enemy. BLEH!!! :P) Don't you just LOVE that sick waltz??? NOT!!!!!
I agree with you that their fight is not your battle. They both need to go to their rooms and stay there until these two overgrown children can figure out how to behave themselves and NOT suck you into the middle of their mess!
Bones
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Bones you are absolutely right, I hadn't thought of that. My neice was being very clear that it was my sister who was in the wrong, but when pushed for details went quiet and I haven't heard from her since. I've not heard from my sister today either - it's silly because it makes me feel anxious that I haven't heard from them but I must get past this and ride it out otherwise it won't change and I'm just too tired of all this sillyness. I think what's been bothering me is that, apart from the fact that I have been struggling (for years!), I've three friends at the minute who are being screened for cancer - people with real problems and worries and not this silly nonsense about who said what and where! I've kept my phone on silent just in case so I don't get disturbed by it and I'm keeping the door locked! :)
Thank you (((((((((((((((((((((((Bonesie))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Bones you are absolutely right, I hadn't thought of that. My neice was being very clear that it was my sister who was in the wrong, but when pushed for details went quiet and I haven't heard from her since. I've not heard from my sister today either - it's silly because it makes me feel anxious that I haven't heard from them but I must get past this and ride it out otherwise it won't change and I'm just too tired of all this sillyness. I think what's been bothering me is that, apart from the fact that I have been struggling (for years!), I've three friends at the minute who are being screened for cancer - people with real problems and worries and not this silly nonsense about who said what and where! I've kept my phone on silent just in case so I don't get disturbed by it and I'm keeping the door locked! :)
Thank you (((((((((((((((((((((((Bonesie))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
You're welcome, (((((((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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I loooooove a good boundary story!
Thanks for the inspiration, Tupp.
(The anxiety is just weather and will pass through and go away. The decision you made, and what you communicated...sound like STELLAR HEALTHY to me!)
I think the more you practice that healthy assertiveness and boundary setting, the less anxious it will feel. Anxiety swooshes are just natural as it isn't an ingrained habit yet. But it will become one, the more consistently you do it.
Kudos!
Hops
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Thank you Hops :)
I've been thinking about it a lot. One problem is I know I have some friends who are happy to hear an opinion, whether they agree with it or not. For example, one friend of mine called one time and was really stressing out over some guy she'd been on a date with - she didn't want to see him again but couldn't decide the kindest way to tell him. At the time my son was undergoing medical tests (one possibility being that he had a brain tumour) and I didn't care about her date. We had 'words', but later all was resolved - she apologised for being thoughtless, I apologised for being sharp with her and calling her selfish and it was all fine. I don't have that relationship with my sister - any kind of 'criticism' is really taken to heart - I have been like this myself at times in the past. So it's really difficult to say anything to her other than what she wants to hear, and she will react (often) by withdrawing completely and refusing to speak. Then when she decideds she will speak again she won't admit she wasn't speaking, she'll insist her phone wasn't working or she had no credit or something. So you can't sort of resolve a situation, because there's no space for both sides to air their views.
My mum used to go days without speaking to us when we were kids, often over something really small that we had (or hadn't done). Then she'd just act like nothing had happened, we still wouldn't really know what we'd done wrong and she'd deny doing it anyway. I think that's where the anxiety comes in, it's like being a child again. I know if I say what I think it will annoy her, then she'll withdraw from me again. I understand why she does it; I go through phases where I just can't cope with people so I don't bother; I withdraw completely and keep to myself. I am getting better at letting people know I do it now and saying "sorry, I can't deal with this at the minute" but it's still something I need to work on.
I saw my neice this morning and she smiled and waved as she drove past. It was nice in one way because she obviously isn't 'not talking' to me, but equally she hasn't responded to what happened the other day or acknowledged it. So again it's one of those relationships where I feel like I have to do more work to compensate for what she can't do.
Thank you so much for replying to my little questions, it really helps me to think things through when other people give their views and I feel like it helps me understand myself better :) xx
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(((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))
I've been debating about sharing an experience that is similar to yours and, at the same time, I don't want to steal your thunder because you deserve to THUNDER LOUDLY!!!! :D
Bones
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Share, Bonesie, share, there's plenty of room for thunder!! I find it really helps when you read similar things to your own experience; the way other people see a situation is always a really big help to me. Share away!
(((((((((Bones)))))))))))))))))))
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Just updating because things are not happening as I expected! My nephew texted me today to ask if I could pick him up from work. I said no, and didn't give a reason, just said I couldn't. He's young, fit, healthy, has a car, a motorbike and a push bike, and if none of those are an option it's only five miles away; he could walk or get the bus. I'm still getting over my cold and had already been out today and wasn't planning on going out again, plus we're very short of cash at the moment so I'm being really careful with fuel and only using the car when I really have to - I'm not doing non-essential journeys.
Later on my sister contacted me to say she and my neice have met up, talked and things are okay. Then she asked if I was okay and if my cold was better yet. This is unprecendented! The last time I said something that annoyed her she didn't talk to me for three weeks, completely ignored all my calls, texts and emails and I really ended up grovelling to her before she would talk to me again. So this feels really weird, although weird in a good way! So something's changed in this pattern, I'm just not sure I know what it is!
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Perhaps your sister senses that she won't be able to whip you around/blackmail you emotionally any longer?
Perhaps your new found strength is attractive, and she wants to be around it..... find some of it for herself?
She was raised in the same family as you. She's learning, right along with you, that there are other ways to get along in a family, different than how you were raised.
Keep modeling good self care/healthy boundaries.
Sounds like she's responding very well to relating in a healthier way.
Lighter
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Just updating because things are not happening as I expected! My nephew texted me today to ask if I could pick him up from work. I said no, and didn't give a reason, just said I couldn't. He's young, fit, healthy, has a car, a motorbike and a push bike, and if none of those are an option it's only five miles away; he could walk or get the bus. I'm still getting over my cold and had already been out today and wasn't planning on going out again, plus we're very short of cash at the moment so I'm being really careful with fuel and only using the car when I really have to - I'm not doing non-essential journeys.
Later on my sister contacted me to say she and my neice have met up, talked and things are okay. Then she asked if I was okay and if my cold was better yet. This is unprecendented! The last time I said something that annoyed her she didn't talk to me for three weeks, completely ignored all my calls, texts and emails and I really ended up grovelling to her before she would talk to me again. So this feels really weird, although weird in a good way! So something's changed in this pattern, I'm just not sure I know what it is!
((((((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I think the change is in you as you have established HEALTHY boundaries, therefore you have changed the dynamics that have occurred. :D This brings about a picture, in my mind, from the TV series, "Bradshaw and the Family" where he used a giant mobile to illustrate the family dynamics. Your setting HEALTHY boundaries brought everything back into balance...just like the mobile.
Bones
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Thanks Bonesie :)
I had a good chat with my T yesterday, about boundaries and helping/enabling. I think I'm starting to get my head around it all a bit more. We talked about me 'rescuing' people (which I do), me thinking other people are my responsibility (better than I used to be but still working on it), me thinking I know best (which I do and I need to work on understanding people do things in different ways and sometimes it's best to say nothing if they aren't asking/looking for advice) and about me not having to be consistent - ie having time to chat and listen one day but maybe not another day if there is something going on in my life that needs my attention - struggling with that one - the idea of saying to someone "Sorry, I don't have time today, maybe we can get together one day next week" is very alien to me, but I see the sense in it and want to try it out!
I think I'm starting to get the difference between helping and enabling as well. She used the example of my nephew asking for a lift home from work last week. If he'd had an accident and needed picking up, that's helping. If he's just being too lazy to organise getting himself to and from work every day, that's enabling. That kind of made sense to me, although I think it's one of those things I will need to work on a lot! But at least when it's in your head it's doing something.
It's kind of weird; I've been brought up to always do everything for other people and not to expect them to be able to look after themselves or cope on their own. It's odd finding out that isn't how most peple are and that their expectations are often very different - what my mum would view as 'nice' behaviour - dropping everything to do something she wanted - others would see as doormat and it would put off the very people I really want to have in my life more. So definitely lots to think about and practise.
Hope you are doing okay.
((((((((((((((((((((((Bonesie)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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WHOO! HOO!
YAH!
::Doing theeee happ hap hap Y daaaaance::
Oh....
uh hem.
Did you see that?
Who cares?
Your last post was gold, Tupp: )
Why can't we teach these lessons to our children in school?
Lighter
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Maybe seeing one more piece of that puzzle - the expectations|responsibility|consistency - will help.
It's OK for you to expect people to take care of you, too. To make time to listen; to help you out with something. Just like if you'd asked for help moving a heavy piece of furniture... and several friends said, whoa - I'd like to but can it wait till next week?... you'd probably say, yeah.... OK. And then you'd follow up next week... unless someone just dropped by and OH... you want to move that? Sure, it'll only take a minute.
I have such low expectations of anyone taking responsibility for taking care of me... I almost react negatively when someone does offer - like I don't understand the gesture; and sure have (still) a hard time knowing what it is I need and asking for it in a grown up way.
I'm glad you brought up consistency. Maybe it's part of the same boundary issue... I don't know. But it seems like people DO expect that if you're willing to do a favor one time, that the next time it'll be OK too. Or that you should always think, do and feel the same way about things... all the time, no change. This doesn't seem realistic to me. People change according to their environment, internal & external; they respond with feelings and emotions which are dependent on mental apprehension of the present - in the moment; and change their lifestyles, jobs, friends... house... so why not their feelings too? Or their understanding of something?
Maybe you meant something else, with consistency, too.
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Share, Bonesie, share, there's plenty of room for thunder!! I find it really helps when you read similar things to your own experience; the way other people see a situation is always a really big help to me. Share away!
(((((((((Bones)))))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))
Thanks, Tupps!!!
I do have several similar experiences to the "Triangulation Waltz" and the "Not Speaking/Pretending Never Happened" stuff so I'll pick just one for now.
This particular situation happened nearly a year ago when I received an invitation, via snail-mail, regarding the high school graduation of an acquaintance's granddaughter. (If memory serves me correctly, this child is the FIRST in her family to complete high school and march in her commencement ceremony. Her grandmother did not achieve this for herself. KUDOS to the granddaughter for her achievement! :D) This child lives in a suburb in a neighboring state from mine, approximately a one-hour drive away. My acquaintance, her grandmother, lives up north about a four-to-six-hour drive away.
As the graduation date drew closer, I received an e-mail, from my acquaintance, accusing her granddaughter of letting the acquaintance's dog run loose and, because of this offense, the graduation party should be canceled as punishment. This acquaintance wanted me to side with her against her granddaughter. (She's pulled this stunt in years past with variations of: "Feel sorry for me! (Fill in the name) is screwing me over!" Each time, I was able to determine that the situation was created by this acquaintance, who did not want to acknowledge responsibility for her own actions. Sound familiar?)
My response?
I asked this acquaintance to explain to me how this child, who lives one-hour away from me, attending her high school, completing her final exams, getting her cap and gown, class ring, etc., could be at the acquaintance's home FOUR-to-SIX HOURS AWAY AT THE SAME TIME, letting her dog run loose! (This acquaintance had forgotten that I used to work in a high school and graduation preparations were part of my job description so I am VERY aware of all the logistics involved! It's very similar to planning a wedding, headaches included!)
I got TOTAL silence as a response to my question. Recently, the acquaintance e-mailed me about something completely different and NEVER acknowledged that the previous verbal exchange, via e-mail, had ever happened. Am I surprised? NOT!!!!
Bones
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Lighter, you hit the nail right on the head with those dancing shoes of yours! I've got myself into a situation where I avoid a lot of things because I'm scared of who/what I might encounter along the way. Because I don't know how to deal with difficult people or situations, I'm not confident about doing it and so I tend to just avoid it. I'm scared of dating in case I pick a guy like my step-dad and he abuses my son. I'm scared of going out to work in case I pick a childminder for my son who is like my mum (who used to be a childminder). I'm scared of making new friends/doing new things in case I get into situations that I find difficult to do or that trigger old memories, and I'm scared of revealing my new self to friends and family in case they reject me! And this is what got me thinking (and why your comments about teaching this in school were spot on!) - I'm teaching my son to hide away from people, instead of teaching him how to deal with difficult people, so that he can go out there, do his thing and, if he encounters someone difficult - and let's face it, there are always going to be people like that - he can deal with it, handle it, process it and move on. So that's what I want to do now, learn how to keep my boundaries, my sense of self and handle people that try and encroach them so that I can teach him that - and hopefully life will start filling up with healthier people and nicer experiences.
Phoenix, I still really struggle with other people taking care of me so that is something else I need to keep working on! I'm only just getting to the point where I'm not worrying about whether my T is bored or not during our sessions! Poor woman has had her work cut out re-shaping my brain, she has really earnt her money! The consistency that you describe is exactly what she was saying to me - sometimes you are in a good place and you have the time/space/energy/money etc to help someone else out - and sometimes you don't. She asked me how I would feel if I asked someone to help me and they said they were too busy today but they could do it next week. I said it would feel fine, so she asked me why I didn't feel it was okay for me to do that as well. I couldn't give her an answer! I would feel like it was wrong for me to be asking for help anyway, and that if someone else wants me to do something I should do it right away - so still lots more to work on! It feels nice, though, I feel like I'm being proactive rather than reactive, which is a nice feeling for a change :)
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Bones, yes, completely hear you! Although of course if you'd ignored something she'd said or emailed there would have been much said on the subject! It's very difficult and another one of those skills that I'm trying to work on now. Good for you for pulling her up on it - did the party go ahead despite her efforts to stop it? It really reminds you of a jealous child who is cross because their classmate has the pencil case they wanted so they break it to stop the other child having it - you know that real childish behaviour before impulse control has been mastered!
((((((((((((Bones))))))))))))))))))
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Bones, yes, completely hear you! Although of course if you'd ignored something she'd said or emailed there would have been much said on the subject! It's very difficult and another one of those skills that I'm trying to work on now. Good for you for pulling her up on it - did the party go ahead despite her efforts to stop it? It really reminds you of a jealous child who is cross because their classmate has the pencil case they wanted so they break it to stop the other child having it - you know that real childish behaviour before impulse control has been mastered!
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(((((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Thanks! The party did go ahead as scheduled but I was unable to attend due a schedule conflict. (I was in rehearsals for a play so I couldn't be in two places at once. The celebrant and her family understood. They couldn't attend the play because they couldn't be in two places at once. :)) The jealous child analogy is SPOT ON!!!!!! That is EXACTLY what N's do!!!!! NDoofus attempted to do EXACTLY THAT at my graduation back in 2007!!!! Her entire behavior was saying: "IF I CAN'T HAVE WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT IT, I'M GOING TO F*** YOU UP SO YOU CAN'T HAVE EITHER!!!!" (There were several other examples of this attitude during that same year that finally led me to understand that this was NO friend and that it was time to go NC with NDoofus!) To avoid confusion, NDoofus is not the grandmother. These were two different people that I had known for several years and it took until recently to understand that both are N's. Both persist in behaving exactly like jealous little children even though both are over the age of 55!!!!
Bones
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Oh Bones, that sent a shiver down my spine, I really feel that is what my mum has been like since I had my son - I wouldn't let her have control over him or play a major part in his life so she made false allegation after false allegation against me - if she couldn't have him she was going to try and make damn sure I didn't either, or at least that it wouldn't be easy for me. UNLUCKY LADY!! NO-ONE MESSES WITH MY BOY!!!!!
On a very much more positive note - I have been practising boundaries :)
Lady next door to me - screams, shouts and swears at her kids relentlessly - steps outside the front door and is the sweetest, nicest person you could ever meet. Sound familiar?
It's a nice day today, I was out front doing some gardening, my son is playing outside with a couple of his friends. She comes out with some greens for the rabbits. I accept them, say thank you. She asks if I'm going up the shop this morning. I am, but I say no. She says her daughter is sick and she has no bread for lunch. She cannot go to the shop because her daughter has a tummy bug. I say that's a shame, I hope her daughter gets better soon. She asks if I have four slices of bread she can have. I say no. She says she has nothing to give her children for lunch. I say oh dear and carry on with my gardening.
What I see is: she brings something out for me - she does me a favour so I must do her one. She plays the sympathy card - her daughter is sick and she can't get to the shop, she has no food for her children. She has two children, the older one is at school so they walk past the shop to and from school twice a day. She could have brought bread yesterday. She had food shopping delivered on Wednesday - I know because she asked if they could leave it with me if she wasn't home in time. Her daughter has a tummy bug - the shop is only five minutes, it's a nice sunny day, she could put her in the buggy and go to the shop herself, in fact a bit of fresh air would probably do her daughter some good. She can keep a loaf of bread in the freezer - I know I do. She has a sister two doors away, she could ask her or her husband to go, or one of their children who are older, or ask one of them to mind the kids whilst she nips up there.
All of that went through my head in a second, but my immediate instinct to her first question was no, even before I knew what she wanted. I think I might start getting quite good at this if I keep practising!
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Oh Bones, that sent a shiver down my spine, I really feel that is what my mum has been like since I had my son - I wouldn't let her have control over him or play a major part in his life so she made false allegation after false allegation against me - if she couldn't have him she was going to try and make damn sure I didn't either, or at least that it wouldn't be easy for me. UNLUCKY LADY!! NO-ONE MESSES WITH MY BOY!!!!!
On a very much more positive note - I have been practising boundaries :)
Lady next door to me - screams, shouts and swears at her kids relentlessly - steps outside the front door and is the sweetest, nicest person you could ever meet. Sound familiar?
It's a nice day today, I was out front doing some gardening, my son is playing outside with a couple of his friends. She comes out with some greens for the rabbits. I accept them, say thank you. She asks if I'm going up the shop this morning. I am, but I say no. She says her daughter is sick and she has no bread for lunch. She cannot go to the shop because her daughter has a tummy bug. I say that's a shame, I hope her daughter gets better soon. She asks if I have four slices of bread she can have. I say no. She says she has nothing to give her children for lunch. I say oh dear and carry on with my gardening.
What I see is: she brings something out for me - she does me a favour so I must do her one. She plays the sympathy card - her daughter is sick and she can't get to the shop, she has no food for her children. She has two children, the older one is at school so they walk past the shop to and from school twice a day. She could have brought bread yesterday. She had food shopping delivered on Wednesday - I know because she asked if they could leave it with me if she wasn't home in time. Her daughter has a tummy bug - the shop is only five minutes, it's a nice sunny day, she could put her in the buggy and go to the shop herself, in fact a bit of fresh air would probably do her daughter some good. She can keep a loaf of bread in the freezer - I know I do. She has a sister two doors away, she could ask her or her husband to go, or one of their children who are older, or ask one of them to mind the kids whilst she nips up there.
All of that went through my head in a second, but my immediate instinct to her first question was no, even before I knew what she wanted. I think I might start getting quite good at this if I keep practising!
Good for you!!!!! ((((((((((((((TwoAPenny)))))))))))))))))))))))) I don't blame you! You Go, Girl!!!! :D
Bones
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Whoo boy, lol.
When you catch on, you really catch on, Tupp: )
Lighter
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Thanks, Bones and Lighter! :)
I did feel guilty about it later on that day! And when I read what I'd written about her last night I thought "Oh my goodness, I sound just like my mum!" That shook me a bit. But then I thought it through again. If there was an emergency and her daughter needed to get to a doctor or hospital I wouldn't hesitate to help. Equally if she'd broken her leg and couldn't manage to get to the shop herself I would happily go. But that wasn't/isn't the situation, so it was okay to refuse. Still feels a bit like someone else doing it but I guess that will change in time. It also occured to me that it was a little odd that she was asking me and not her sister. Her sister is only two doors away and has five children. If anyone would have food in the house it would be her sister! So perhaps her sister has put her foot down in the past and that's why she didn't ask her? Who's to know. Anyway, I feel okayish about it again now - I feel like my halo has slipped but my T says it's very healthy to accept being average so I am working on that.
Off-line for a few days now so I hope everyone stays in a relatively good place and look forward to catching up with people again soon. Thanks for your help and support, as always :) xx
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Thanks, Bones and Lighter! :)
I did feel guilty about it later on that day! And when I read what I'd written about her last night I thought "Oh my goodness, I sound just like my mum!" That shook me a bit. But then I thought it through again. If there was an emergency and her daughter needed to get to a doctor or hospital I wouldn't hesitate to help. Equally if she'd broken her leg and couldn't manage to get to the shop herself I would happily go. But that wasn't/isn't the situation, so it was okay to refuse. Still feels a bit like someone else doing it but I guess that will change in time. It also occured to me that it was a little odd that she was asking me and not her sister. Her sister is only two doors away and has five children. If anyone would have food in the house it would be her sister! So perhaps her sister has put her foot down in the past and that's why she didn't ask her? Who's to know. Anyway, I feel okayish about it again now - I feel like my halo has slipped but my T says it's very healthy to accept being average so I am working on that.
Off-line for a few days now so I hope everyone stays in a relatively good place and look forward to catching up with people again soon. Thanks for your help and support, as always :) xx
((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny)))))))))))))))))))))))))
I also got the sense that this neighbor's sister, who lives two doors away, put her foot down because this individual tends to USE people for her own convenience but will NEVER reciprocate. How much you want to bet that when the sister asked for help, when she desperately NEEDED help, this individual couldn't be bothered because it was INCONVENIENT to her "royal" self. (Sounds like a combination of NDoofus and my NAcquaintance grandmother to me! Just my perception, for what it's worth.) You are so right to keep this neighbor "at arm's length" as her attempts to "guilt-trip" you were so transparent! If she can attempt to manipulate you to become her doormat, who knows what else she's capable of?
Bones
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Have fun, Tupp.
See you when you get back: )
Lighter
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Thank you both :) We're away having some tests done for my son, who has special needs, and have had some good news :) You may remember that my mum has caused a lot of trouble for me over the years by claiming I'd abused and neglected my son and that had caused his problems. Well, the assessments he's had done this week have proved that wasn't true. Obviously I knew it wasn't true anyway and those close to me - real friends - knew it wasn't, but it was really nice to have someone official 'prove' it as well - it's not just my word against hers anymore. Feels strange. Like a cloud is finally lifting - like I was having to hold it up in order to carry on but now it's just drifting away on its own. Can't really describe it very well - don't feel elated or massively excited - don't even feel the need to bother telling anyone. Just feel a bit safer and a bit more secure than I used to. Knowledge is power and all that! xx
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I know Tupp.
It's terrible when people, who should be protecting and helping you, sabotage you (and your child) bc they feel threatened by you, or want an innapropriate relationship that's not in your best interest, so you step back.
I don't think they understand what they do.
Just knowing the truth for yourself, helps.
Lighter
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Thank you both :) We're away having some tests done for my son, who has special needs, and have had some good news :) You may remember that my mum has caused a lot of trouble for me over the years by claiming I'd abused and neglected my son and that had caused his problems. Well, the assessments he's had done this week have proved that wasn't true. Obviously I knew it wasn't true anyway and those close to me - real friends - knew it wasn't, but it was really nice to have someone official 'prove' it as well - it's not just my word against hers anymore. Feels strange. Like a cloud is finally lifting - like I was having to hold it up in order to carry on but now it's just drifting away on its own. Can't really describe it very well - don't feel elated or massively excited - don't even feel the need to bother telling anyone. Just feel a bit safer and a bit more secure than I used to. Knowledge is power and all that! xx
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Validation confirms what you know to be real, Penny... your reality.
When someone close to you (or someone who should be close to you) decides that reality is something very, very different (usually calculated to make you appear crazy or very bad)... it's painful, unfair, unjust, infuriating and often impossible to understand.
Validation of this kind sort of takes away self-doubt... helps build confidence... trust in oneself and feels like a kind of relief that "all is right with the world, after all" and that you've got your own proper place in it.
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Tupp,
I do understand.
I was massively relieved when a judge, an independent auditor, and 3 character witnesses testified that my sociopath-brother's accusations of me harming my mother were, essentially, groundless, baseless, malicious BULLSHIT.
Particularly when what I HAD done for over 10 years was carry--alone--the profound burden of caring for her at the cost of my own health, my career, and my wellbeing. And had done so with compassion, dedication, and patience.
I wanted to rent a billboard by the highway.
But I also was so exhausted that the aftermath, while validating, didn't sort it out.
I do understand. And I'm glad for you about the report...
Hops
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Hops I'm sorry you went through that too, especially when you were doing so much for your mum. It's funny but I don't even care about 'proving' to those who believed her that she was lying. I think I realised a long time ago that the only people who believed her were people that didn't really know me - many of whom were family! - whilst my friends and sister dismissed her claims as nonsense straight away. But it's still nice to know I've got proof just in case I ever need it again.
Hi Phoenix :) She has created a different reality. I think my T has really helped me to believe in myself and to realise that my life is my reality and what my mum does is about her, not me. She is welcome to her reality! I like mine better :)
Lighter, I often wonder if she was jealous? She wanted me to be a bad mum, and I wasn't. I was a lot better than she was, and I think she could see that early on. My boy was always over the moon to see me if I left him with her - or anyone else - and he always preferred being with me to anyone else. I don't think she liked that? He was a really happy, smiley, confident child, even as a young baby. My sister and I were always really serious and solemn as kids, really quiet and insular. He was like a little moon beam and I always wonder if she just resented that. Weird!!
Thank you Bones ((((((((((((((((((Bonesie))))))))))))))))))))
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You're welcome, ((((((((((TwoAPenny)))))))))))))))))))))))