Not wanting to help - healthy or selfish?

[Hopalong]

I loooooove a good boundary story!

Thanks for the inspiration, Tupp.

(The anxiety is just weather and will pass through and go away. The decision you made, and what you communicated...sound like STELLAR HEALTHY to me!)

I think the more you practice that healthy assertiveness and boundary setting, the less anxious it will feel. Anxiety swooshes are just natural as it isn't an ingrained habit yet. But it will become one, the more consistently you do it.

Kudos!

Hops

[Twoapenny]

Thank you Hops  

I've been thinking about it a lot.  One problem is I know I have some friends who are happy to hear an opinion, whether they agree with it or not.  For example, one friend of mine called one time and was really stressing out over some guy she'd been on a date with - she didn't want to see him again but couldn't decide the kindest way to tell him.  At the time my son was undergoing medical tests (one possibility being that he had a brain tumour) and I didn't care about her date.  We had 'words', but later all was resolved - she apologised for being thoughtless, I apologised for being sharp with her and calling her selfish and it was all fine.  I don't have that relationship with my sister - any kind of 'criticism' is really taken to heart - I have been like this myself at times in the past.  So it's really difficult to say anything to her other than what she wants to hear, and she will react (often) by withdrawing completely and refusing to speak.  Then when she decideds she will speak again she won't admit she wasn't speaking, she'll insist her phone wasn't working or she had no credit or something.  So you can't sort of resolve a situation, because there's no space for both sides to air their views.

My mum used to go days without speaking to us when we were kids, often over something really small that we had (or hadn't done).  Then she'd just act like nothing had happened, we still wouldn't really know what we'd done wrong and she'd deny doing it anyway.  I think that's where the anxiety comes in, it's like being a child again.  I know if I say what I think it will annoy her, then she'll withdraw from me again.  I understand why she does it; I go through phases where I just can't cope with people so I don't bother; I withdraw completely and keep to myself.  I am getting better at letting people know I do it now and saying "sorry, I can't deal with this at the minute" but it's still something I need to work on.

I saw my neice this morning and she smiled and waved as she drove past.  It was nice in one way because she obviously isn't 'not talking' to me, but equally she hasn't responded to what happened the other day or acknowledged it.  So again it's one of those relationships where I feel like I have to do more work to compensate for what she can't do.

Thank you so much for replying to my little questions, it really helps me to think things through when other people give their views and I feel like it helps me understand myself better xx

[BonesMS]

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I've been debating about sharing an experience that is similar to yours and, at the same time, I don't want to steal your thunder because you deserve to THUNDER LOUDLY!!!!   

Bones

[Twoapenny]

Share, Bonesie, share, there's plenty of room for thunder!!  I find it really helps when you read similar things to your own experience; the way other people see a situation is always a really big help to me.  Share away!

(((((((((Bones)))))))))))))))))))

[Twoapenny]

Just updating because things are not happening as I expected!  My nephew texted me today to ask if I could pick him up from work.  I said no, and didn't give a reason, just said I couldn't.  He's young, fit, healthy, has a car, a motorbike and a push bike, and if none of those are an option it's only five miles away; he could walk or get the bus.  I'm still getting over my cold and had already been out today and wasn't planning on going out again, plus we're very short of cash at the moment so I'm being really careful with fuel and only using the car when I really have to - I'm not doing non-essential journeys.

Later on my sister contacted me to say she and my neice have met up, talked and things are okay.  Then she asked if I was okay and if my cold was better yet.  This is unprecendented!  The last time I said something that annoyed her she didn't talk to me for three weeks, completely ignored all my calls, texts and emails and I really ended up grovelling to her before she would talk to me again.  So this feels really weird, although weird in a good way!  So something's changed in this pattern, I'm just not sure I know what it is!

[lighter]

Perhaps your sister senses that she won't be able to whip you around/blackmail you emotionally any longer?

Perhaps your new found strength is attractive, and she wants to be around it..... find some of it for herself?

She was raised in the same family as you.  She's learning, right along with you, that there are other ways to get along in a family, different than how you were raised.

Keep modeling good self care/healthy boundaries.

Sounds like she's responding very well to relating in a healthier way.
Lighter

[BonesMS]

Just updating because things are not happening as I expected!  My nephew texted me today to ask if I could pick him up from work.  I said no, and didn't give a reason, just said I couldn't.  He's young, fit, healthy, has a car, a motorbike and a push bike, and if none of those are an option it's only five miles away; he could walk or get the bus.  I'm still getting over my cold and had already been out today and wasn't planning on going out again, plus we're very short of cash at the moment so I'm being really careful with fuel and only using the car when I really have to - I'm not doing non-essential journeys.

Later on my sister contacted me to say she and my neice have met up, talked and things are okay.  Then she asked if I was okay and if my cold was better yet.  This is unprecendented!  The last time I said something that annoyed her she didn't talk to me for three weeks, completely ignored all my calls, texts and emails and I really ended up grovelling to her before she would talk to me again.  So this feels really weird, although weird in a good way!  So something's changed in this pattern, I'm just not sure I know what it is!

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I think the change is in you as you have established HEALTHY boundaries, therefore you have changed the dynamics that have occurred.     This brings about a picture, in my mind, from the TV series, "Bradshaw and the Family" where he used a giant mobile to illustrate the family dynamics.  Your setting HEALTHY boundaries brought everything back into balance...just like the mobile.

Bones

[Twoapenny]

Thanks Bonesie

I had a good chat with my T yesterday, about boundaries and helping/enabling.  I think I'm starting to get my head around it all a bit more.  We talked about me 'rescuing' people (which I do), me thinking other people are my responsibility (better than I used to be but still working on it), me thinking I know best (which I do and I need to work on understanding people do things in different ways and sometimes it's best to say nothing if they aren't asking/looking for advice) and about me not having to be consistent - ie having time to chat and listen one day but maybe not another day if there is something going on in my life that needs my attention - struggling with that one - the idea of saying to someone "Sorry, I don't have time today, maybe we can get together one day next week" is very alien to me, but I see the sense in it and want to try it out!

I think I'm starting to get the difference between helping and enabling as well.  She used the example of my nephew asking for a lift home from work last week.  If he'd had an accident and needed picking up, that's helping.  If he's just being too lazy to organise getting himself to and from work every day, that's enabling.  That kind of made sense to me, although I think it's one of those things I will need to work on a lot!  But at least when it's in your head it's doing something.

It's kind of weird; I've been brought up to always do everything for other people and not to expect them to be able to look after themselves or cope on their own.  It's odd finding out that isn't how most peple are and that their expectations are often very different - what my mum would view as 'nice' behaviour - dropping everything to do something she wanted - others would see as doormat and it would put off the very people I really want to have in my life more.  So definitely lots to think about and practise.

Hope you are doing okay.

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[lighter]

WHOO! HOO!

YAH!

::Doing theeee happ hap hap Y daaaaance::

Oh....

uh hem.

Did you see that?

Who cares?

Your last post was gold, Tupp: )

Why can't we teach these lessons to our children in school?
Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Maybe seeing one more piece of that puzzle - the expectations|responsibility|consistency - will help.

It's OK for you to expect people to take care of you, too. To make time to listen; to help you out with something. Just like if you'd asked for help moving a heavy piece of furniture... and several friends said, whoa - I'd like to but can it wait till next week?... you'd probably say, yeah.... OK. And then you'd follow up next week... unless someone just dropped by and OH... you want to move that? Sure, it'll only take a minute.

I have such low expectations of anyone taking responsibility for taking care of me... I almost react negatively when someone does offer - like I don't understand the gesture; and sure have (still) a hard time knowing what it is I need and asking for it in a grown up way.

I'm glad you brought up consistency. Maybe it's part of the same boundary issue... I don't know. But it seems like people DO expect that if you're willing to do a favor one time, that the next time it'll be OK too. Or that you should always think, do and feel the same way about things... all the time, no change. This doesn't seem realistic to me. People change according to their environment, internal & external; they respond with feelings and emotions which are dependent on mental apprehension of the present - in the moment; and change their lifestyles, jobs, friends... house... so why not their feelings too? Or their understanding of something?

Maybe you meant something else, with consistency, too.

[BonesMS]

Share, Bonesie, share, there's plenty of room for thunder!!  I find it really helps when you read similar things to your own experience; the way other people see a situation is always a really big help to me.  Share away!

(((((((((Bones)))))))))))))))))))

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Thanks, Tupps!!!

I do have several similar experiences to the "Triangulation Waltz" and the "Not Speaking/Pretending Never Happened" stuff so I'll pick just one for now.

This particular situation happened nearly a year ago when I received an invitation, via snail-mail, regarding the high school graduation of an acquaintance's granddaughter.  (If memory serves me correctly, this child is the FIRST in her family to complete high school and march in her commencement ceremony.  Her grandmother did not achieve this for herself.  KUDOS to the granddaughter for her achievement!   )  This child lives in a suburb in a neighboring state from mine, approximately a one-hour drive away.  My acquaintance, her grandmother, lives up north about a four-to-six-hour drive away.

As the graduation date drew closer, I received an e-mail, from my acquaintance, accusing her granddaughter of letting the acquaintance's dog run loose and, because of this offense, the graduation party should be canceled as punishment.  This acquaintance wanted me to side with her against her granddaughter.  (She's pulled this stunt in years past with variations of:  "Feel sorry for me!  (Fill in the name) is screwing me over!"  Each time, I was able to determine that the situation was created by this acquaintance, who did not want to acknowledge responsibility for her own actions.  Sound familiar?)

My response?

I asked this acquaintance to explain to me how this child, who lives one-hour away from me, attending her high school, completing her final exams, getting her cap and gown, class ring, etc., could be at the acquaintance's home FOUR-to-SIX HOURS AWAY AT THE SAME TIME, letting her dog run loose!  (This acquaintance had forgotten that I used to work in a high school and graduation preparations were part of my job description so I am VERY aware of all the logistics involved!  It's very similar to planning a wedding, headaches included!)

I got TOTAL silence as a response to my question.  Recently, the acquaintance e-mailed me about something completely different and NEVER acknowledged that the previous verbal exchange, via e-mail, had ever happened.  Am I surprised?  NOT!!!!

Bones

[Twoapenny]

Lighter, you hit the nail right on the head with those dancing shoes of yours!  I've got myself into a situation where I avoid a lot of things because I'm scared of who/what I might encounter along the way.  Because I don't know how to deal with difficult people or situations, I'm not confident about doing it and so I tend to just avoid it.  I'm scared of dating in case I pick a guy like my step-dad and he abuses my son.  I'm scared of going out to work in case I pick a childminder for my son who is like my mum (who used to be a childminder).  I'm scared of making new friends/doing new things in case I get into situations that I find difficult to do or that trigger old memories, and I'm scared of revealing my new self to friends and family in case they reject me!  And this is what got me thinking (and why your comments about teaching this in school were spot on!) - I'm teaching my son to hide away from people, instead of teaching him how to deal with difficult people, so that he can go out there, do his thing and, if he encounters someone difficult - and let's face it, there are always going to be people like that - he can deal with it, handle it, process it and move on.  So that's what I want to do now, learn how to keep my boundaries, my sense of self and handle people that try and encroach them so that I can teach him that - and hopefully life will start filling up with healthier people and nicer experiences.

Phoenix, I still really struggle with other people taking care of me so that is something else I need to keep working on!  I'm only just getting to the point where I'm not worrying about whether my T is bored or not during our sessions!  Poor woman has had her work cut out re-shaping my brain, she has really earnt her money!  The consistency that you describe is exactly what she was saying to me - sometimes you are in a good place and you have the time/space/energy/money etc to help someone else out - and sometimes you don't.  She asked me how I would feel if I asked someone to help me and they said they were too busy today but they could do it next week.  I said it would feel fine, so she asked me why I didn't feel it was okay for me to do that as well.  I couldn't give her an answer!  I would feel like it was wrong for me to be asking for help anyway, and that if someone else wants me to do something I should do it right away - so still lots more to work on!  It feels nice, though, I feel like I'm being proactive rather than reactive, which is a nice feeling for a change

[Twoapenny]

Bones, yes, completely hear you!  Although of course if you'd ignored something she'd said or emailed there would have been much said on the subject!  It's very difficult and another one of those skills that I'm trying to work on now.  Good for you for pulling her up on it - did the party go ahead despite her efforts to stop it?  It really reminds you of a jealous child who is cross because their classmate has the pencil case they wanted so they break it to stop the other child having it - you know that real childish behaviour before impulse control has been mastered!

((((((((((((Bones))))))))))))))))))

[BonesMS]

Bones, yes, completely hear you!  Although of course if you'd ignored something she'd said or emailed there would have been much said on the subject!  It's very difficult and another one of those skills that I'm trying to work on now.  Good for you for pulling her up on it - did the party go ahead despite her efforts to stop it?  It really reminds you of a jealous child who is cross because their classmate has the pencil case they wanted so they break it to stop the other child having it - you know that real childish behaviour before impulse control has been mastered!

((((((((((((Bones))))))))))))))))))

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Thanks!  The party did go ahead as scheduled but I was unable to attend due a schedule conflict.  (I was in rehearsals for a play so I couldn't be in two places at once.  The celebrant and her family understood.  They couldn't attend the play because they couldn't be in two places at once.   )  The jealous child analogy is SPOT ON!!!!!!  That is EXACTLY what N's do!!!!!  NDoofus attempted to do EXACTLY THAT at my graduation back in 2007!!!!  Her entire behavior was saying:  "IF I CAN'T HAVE WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT IT, I'M GOING TO F*** YOU UP SO YOU CAN'T HAVE EITHER!!!!"  (There were several other examples of this attitude during that same year that finally led me to understand that this was NO friend and that it was time to go NC with NDoofus!)  To avoid confusion, NDoofus is not the grandmother.  These were two different people that I had known for several years and it took until recently to understand that both are N's.  Both persist in behaving exactly like jealous little children even though both are over the age of 55!!!!

Bones

[Twoapenny]

Oh Bones, that sent a shiver down my spine, I really feel that is what my mum has been like since I had my son - I wouldn't let her have control over him or play a major part in his life so she made false allegation after false allegation against me - if she couldn't have him she was going to try and make damn sure I didn't either, or at least that it wouldn't be easy for me.  UNLUCKY LADY!!  NO-ONE MESSES WITH MY BOY!!!!!

On a very much more positive note - I have been practising boundaries

Lady next door to me - screams, shouts and swears at her kids relentlessly - steps outside the front door and is the sweetest, nicest person you could ever meet.  Sound familiar?

It's a nice day today, I was out front doing some gardening, my son is playing outside with a couple of his friends.  She comes out with some greens for the rabbits.  I accept them, say thank you.  She asks if I'm going up the shop this morning.  I am, but I say no.  She says her daughter is sick and she has no bread for lunch.  She cannot go to the shop because her daughter has a tummy bug.  I say that's a shame, I hope her daughter gets better soon.  She asks if I have four slices of bread she can have.  I say no.  She says she has nothing to give her children for lunch.  I say oh dear and carry on with my gardening.

What I see is:  she brings something out for me - she does me a favour so I must do her one.  She plays the sympathy card - her daughter is sick and she can't get to the shop, she has no food for her children.  She has two children, the older one is at school so they walk past the shop to and from school twice a day.  She could have brought bread yesterday.  She had food shopping delivered on Wednesday - I know because she asked if they could leave it with me if she wasn't home in time.  Her daughter has a tummy bug - the shop is only five minutes, it's a nice sunny day, she could put her in the buggy and go to the shop herself, in fact a bit of fresh air would probably do her daughter some good.  She can keep a loaf of bread in the freezer - I know I do.  She has a sister two doors away, she could ask her or her husband to go, or one of their children who are older, or ask one of them to mind the kids whilst she nips up there.

All of that went through my head in a second, but my immediate instinct to her first question was no, even before I knew what she wanted.  I think I might start getting quite good at this if I keep practising!