Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sunblue on April 04, 2011, 01:34:29 PM
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I read with interest a recent post by Judith Acosta about narcissism and why it’s difficult for “nice” and “good” people to say “no” to them. Much of what she said rang so true for me. She notes that because those of us raised by or involved with Ns are emotionally more vulnerable or fragile for a variety of reasons, we’re more susceptible to Narcissistic predators who treat us badly. As a result, we feel unloved or unworthy…and the more we feel unworthy, the less likely we are to set limits and say “no”.
I’ve found this to be so true. It’s pathetic but I’ve been afraid of saying “no” to the Ns in my life (mother, mostly) because of a fear that she’ll pull what few “crumbs” of pseudo-love or approval she doles out (which I realize is nothing at all). In our culture of narcissists, when we say “no”, we must face the prospect of literally being alone.
Narcissists are very controlling----what they want is paramount in any relationship. They don’t accept “no” easily because, as Acosta notes, it threatens their self-worth or plan. They will lie, charm, or manipulate their way to get what they want. Or they will rage resulting in bodily or emotional harm.
But those of us who aren’t Ns have a conscience and often an increased sense of guilt.
Ultimately, for me, it is that holding out for a sliver of hope that they will acknowledge, appreciate or care about us. It will never happen. So, instead, it’s about setting limits which are naturally difficult for the non-N, knowing the consequences of saying “no”.
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sunblue,
I understand what you're saying here.
I was thinking of a concept recently. Its said that for an N 'the world is their oyster'. We get caught in that oyster, and then their oyster becomes our world.
Its hard to risk being thrown out of their oyster because it feels like there IS nothing of value outside their oyster, which is what their experience is, so this means we have been internally organised by what is inside them.
Many things explain the power this has over us. Its akin to a developmental stage that they contact within us of being completely dependent. It would be like stepping outside the zone of oxygen.
for me recovery meant re-organizing myself internally and out of that draining and paralyzing grip.
I know that recover is possible.
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I'm posting before reading because your topic struck a chord in me.
saying "no" to a Narcissist can release their worst aspects.
Saying "no" can be the very thing that sends the N on a personal attack to destroy - sometimes overtly (screaming or spewing personal defamatory vitriol) or covertly (destroying the nay sayers reputation.)
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I'm so endebted to you sunblue.
This question has been a floodlight for me.
Why is saying "No" to an narcissist so hard?
Because they make you pay for it!
I'm thinking that it may even be a diagnostic tool ...
think about that ...
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I'm so endebted to you sunblue.
This question has been a floodlight for me.
Why is saying "No" to an narcissist so hard?
Because they make you pay for it!
I'm thinking that it may even be a diagnostic tool ...
think about that ...
I think that by saying "No" to someone's demand is a diagnostic tool to determine if that person is an N. This triggered an old memory for me from back in the 1970's. I had received an invitation in the mail, from my adopted sister, inviting me to a party and it required an RSVP. I called her up and said that, "Yes, I would like to attend her party." She responded, "Great! On your way to my party, I want you to drive over (hither and yon, criss-crossing the county), and pick up this friend of mine and that friend of mine, etc., etc., etc." as if I was a FREE taxi service while the gas prices were skyrocketing!!!! All of these "friends" of hers were complete strangers to me and NONE of them lived anywhere near me!
When I calmly stated that it would not be possible for me to collect all of these people, my adopted sister snapped: "WELL, CONSIDER YOURSELF DIS-INVITED!" and hung up on me!
I still feel that what she attempted to do, demanding that I be HER FREE TAXI SERVICE at my expense, was so wrong on so many levels and extremely rude. One is NOT supposed to do that to any invited guest. I realize now, that is what N's do.
Bones
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Wow - bones - that is an astonishing story.
It is mind boggling to me - how these people behave.
always evoking a strong reaction from me - right in my gut.
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It was one moment, when I said "No" to my brother -- that triggered the whole nightmare.
One "No." It was
Not
To
Be
Tolerated
(My role was to be submissive, saintly and absorb his projected guilt for neglecting them. His was...not to be accountable.)
Dunno if it's a diagnosis but it sure was clear.
Hops
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Wow - bones - that is an astonishing story.
It is mind boggling to me - how these people behave.
always evoking a strong reaction from me - right in my gut.
Yes, it is mind-boggling how outrageously they can behave!
Bones
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It was one moment, when I said "No" to my brother -- that triggered the whole nightmare.
One "No." It was
Not
To
Be
Tolerated
(My role was to be submissive, saintly and absorb his projected guilt for neglecting them. His was...not to be accountable.)
Dunno if it's a diagnosis but it sure was clear.
Hops
((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Brother's reaction to the word "No" is indicative of his being an N! It appears that, in his mind, you are not permitted to have any boundaries whatsoever because, in his mind, you are HIS property to USE as HE PLEASES! My NBrother, who is now missing, behaved the same way. (BTW, I have no desire to search for him. It's a RELIEF he is GONE!)
Bones
Bones
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I think it showed that too, Bones.
In his case, though, I'd say N, plus S(ociopath), and perhaps nearly P(sycopath) at times.
Quite a combo.
Hops
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Yes, so hard to say no sometimes...but I just experienced a small step forward I think. My dad, who has been critically ill for 6 months but who is now home recovering asked me to stay home with him today. (Saturday is generally the day my extreme N sister and her boyfriend spend with him). I have spent the last 6 months sleeping on a hard hospital chair while I cared for my dad through the night and then went to work through the day. My N sis, on the other hand, popped in on the weekend when it was convenient. I gave up my vacation time, sick days and personal days so I could relieve my mom sometimes during the day and give her a break. Neither of my siblings ever did. So now that he is home, I leave the house when the N sis plan to arrive. My dad asked me to stay with them here but I refused. He reminded him why (my N sis is very "ill" who is incapable of accepting there are other people "and siblings" in this family and she has caused me irreparable harm). He is not the N (my mom and sis are); but he is the co-N. I understand that. But it just shows you nothing---but even a health crisiis that brought him to the brink of death literally----will alter the narcissistic make-up and behaviior of an N family.
So I said no, I would not be in the same house with her. Instead, I'm typing this from a local restaurant where there's an Internet connection and will kill some time until the "N" sibling leaves the house. My N mom had the nerve to tell me that last week when I left the house for the day that I should have returned because she could have used my help (my N sis conveniently left early and wasn't there to help). So, once again a reminder I'm just there to be used.
Sad but true experience. They're just so used to me always saying "yes", they can't fathom that I'd actually say "no". A smalll "no" to be sure. But I have my limits. I will not allow myself to be in the same room with the severe N sis unless there is no way around it. She is toxic and "sick" and damaging. She is truly unstable. So NO, NO, NO
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I do love this thread.
It is so eye-opening to me and how and why I have had certain behaviors for so long.
There was a certain confluence of events that revealed the "wizard" in our family when my brothers and I were in our early 30s.
It was the beginning of when we told him "no" for the first times in our lives, even in utterly insane times when anyone else would have said, "no."
He made us pay - boy did he make us pay.
At that time, all three of us independently began recognizing that he held money over our heads as implied inticements and money did not work so he essentially wrote us off. What I thought of today, is that he did not realize that I never wrote off the hopes of having his love or concern or understanding. I didn't understand that either until this afternoon. I sat beside his hospital bed each and every day unaware that I still held some kind of hope of being recognized as a loving, caring, decent human being. He could have used that to manipulate me. But the only medium he cared about was money.
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I sat beside his hospital bed each and every day unaware that I still held some kind of hope of being recognized as a loving, caring, decent human being.
GS - we recognize you here; this is who you ARE to me. Most importantly - YOU recognized this about YOU. That is wealth beyond anyone's bank balance, you know? It's the kind of wealth that's permanent; it's yours and no one can "take" that away from you.
Have you ever heard the phrase - money doesn't make the man? Money doesn't confer virtue or character on anyone - it's just money. Some people believe money = status = I'm better than everyone else.... more important. Some people believe that others will "do anything for money" - because they would, so they try to use money to control others; totally not true - you can walk away and not take the money. Sometimes the price of that kind of money is way too high.
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Here here Amber, in a big way. If I had a dollar ( :P) for every time I heard her say "you'll never have to worry about money, because all this will come to you and only you", I'd have quite a few dollars...
Money was so important, almost all-important, to ALL my immediate FOO. Nuts.
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Well, Guest - when you don't have any money, it's pretty important!! I would laugh when people would tell me - you just need to learn to budget - because when you have $1.52 left over after paying all the bills - you've got nothing to budget. (Maybe 100 yrs ago that $1.52 would've gone a lot farther - when bread was 5 cents a loaf????)
And there's just as many weird social ideas about poverty - including blaming the victim - as there are about "fat cat bankers" or CEOs.... ALL of that kind of stuff gets tacked on to the dollars and cents thinking about/talking about money... and creates dysfunctional loops around people's behavior with money. The biggest myth about money is that money = power, to my way of thinking. (security runs a close second)
In the money=power scenario... so often I see people make incredibly wasteful, dumb decisions - literally throwing money away... on projects that are doomed to fail, because the goal and scope haven't been defined... or because, in the process of getting to point B... it all of a sudden becomes necessary to include points C, D, and F & G... and because those additional items are included at the last minute - there are multiple, uncalculated for, but very necessary costs added to the overall total, to be able to implement them. The money=power myth believers forget that money is finite; carte blanche is a fiction - so they don't successfully manage their resources. Sometimes, they also believe that "he who dies with the most" is the "winner"... but this ignores the fact that remains - you CAN'T take it with you.
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I think it showed that too, Bones.
In his case, though, I'd say N, plus S(ociopath), and perhaps nearly P(sycopath) at times.
Quite a combo.
Hops
Quite a combo is RIGHT!!!
OUCH!!!!
Bones
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Oh dear
Here here Amber
i can't believe I wrote that! Where? Here? Whaddya say? :lol:
Yep, very important when you haven't got any. Power, security (which I used to say, security) it's all meanings.
money=power myth believers forget that money is finite
Right, so that's what's going on in their heads! They actually don't understand that if you spend the whole lot there won't be any left? Well heck. I'm not crying over it.
At the other end of the scale, I know someone who hardly spent anything, was paranoid about being 'ripped off' and left a lot of money on death. I think the pile of cash was a direct representation of their personal value and worth in life. Which is pretty sad. Money as proof of identity?
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Money as proof of identity is tragic - beyond sad.
So much more to life than that, n'est-ce pas?
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Tragic to us, yes. Tragic to the person?
It's like empathy for Ns.
If one is locked into a way of being, fear stopping any movement/change, then the status quo is what one wants. And you get what you want. You may forfiet relationships and life along the way, but if that's what you can cope with..
well i agree, it's tragic.
And i think I'm the only one that sees that (except you Amber!).
So yeah...anyway.
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Hi Sun,
Saying no is when my problems started! And, as others have pointed out, saying no unleashes a whole host of N wrath on the head of the person saying it. For me, it was a death/birth experience - I suppose literally in having the baby they all wanted me to abort, but also it was the start of the death of the ever smiling, Stepford wife type doormat I was and the birth of someone who slowly got better and better at speaking her mind, standing up for herself, setting some boundaries and re-claiming her life.
I'm sorry to hear of the situation you're in. It's tough, especially when your heart is in being supportive but it means having to be part of a family that can cause you so much pain. But you are right, even the most acute situations fail to illustrate their dysfunctional behaviour to them. My mum and step-dad have six children between them. Only one speaks to both of them. I did point out to my mum once that, if five of my kids wanted nothing to do with me I might start thinking it was me who had the problem not them. She responded with another false allegation to the doctors about my son.
Keep focusing on keeping you healthy. Keep saying no. Keep taking time and space for you.
((((((((((((((((((((((((Sun)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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I just found a note I had written after Christmas 2008. I had started a journal, back then, but only wrote for four days.
NM was visiting for the holidays, and after lunch on Christmas Day, asked if I would cut her hair. (Her hair was lovely, didn't need trimming, NM only needed the attention - I'm not a hairdresser, but had started trimming it a bit, whenever I'd visit her, trying to be kind to her, because she is in her nineties.) I said: Gee, not now, because it is Christmas DAY - we can do this any other day." Later she came to me, I was still preparing Christmas food in the kitchen - and she had something in her hand, asking where the garbage can might be. I said there was one in her bathroom. She said she didn't want to fill it up. I said it was fine. She kept asking where we put the garbage. I said there was another one under the kitchen sink. Then she opened up her fist and handed me a handful of her own hair, and said she had cut it herself.
Read: I had said "no"... so she chopped off chunks of her hair herself....Christmas Day. Guess she was teaching me a lesson! :?