Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ales2 on June 03, 2011, 10:08:44 PM
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i went back to my T today that i have not seen since november. i stopped therapy last may because all i was hearing was take anti-depressants. i think i had as much progress as i could with talk therapy.
i went to see him to tell him how i was doing - especially since the last 9 months have been out of control for me emotionally because i got involved with a N business partner and it triggered alot of unfortunate things - a romantic obsession, drinking, overspending, foolish decisions, lethargy, malaise, insomnia, crying spells and chronic anxiety and 15 lb weight gain, i'm at my highest weight ever.
guess what that leads to - yeah, the suggestion of anti-depressants. great. just what i did not want to hear. i cant take anti-depressants. they dont help, they make things worse for me. i took them last time in 1991. i never want to do them again. very important things that should have been dealt with then weren't which caused more problems long term. i'm miserable, but better that than take drugs.
i think i will get on the no stimulants/sober/vegan diet my friend suggested... i think it might be the only way.
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Ales, I have been exactly where you are now and it is a hard and lonely place. There are a lot of people out there who think anti-ds are the only answer. For some, they are. For others - myself and, it sounds, you - they make the problems worse.
I found changes to diet and lifestyle really helped. I read a very good book - Optimum Nutrition for the Mind - by Patrick Holford - which really helped me to sort my diet out and take some good quality supplements. Exercise is great - I've always found walking the best for me but it doesn't matter what the exercise is, whatever suits will help with your mood etc.
I've also used complementary therapies - I don't know what your circumstances are but some people find them helpful. I think homeopathy has been the one that helped the most, but also reflexology, acupuncture, Bach Flower Remedies and osteopathy - I carry a lot of tension in my neck and shoulders and having someone free that up helps. I tend to use homeopathy almost constantly and dip into the others as and when I feel the need. Personally I have found talk therapy extremely effective but it has to be a therapist who 'gets' you and is able to work with you in a way that you find acceptable. I don't know whether you have any choice as to who you see or if you're assigned someone, but if there is any choice involved maybe at some point you may be able to get someone who won't keep trying to prescribe you pills. Good for you for sticking to your guns, though. I think after being brought up in families where the word 'no' wasn't allowed (or heard) it's really important to be able to voice your feelings and insist someone listens to you.
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Thanks Twopenny for your suggestions. I know my diet needs to change, my waistline tells me that - and I know there is a lot of benefits with whole foods and Omega3s, antioxidants etc. The book looks very interesting, thanks.
I'm an exercise addict, I was a runner for many years but can only run when I feel clear - when there is depression or anxiety, I get out there and its literally like I am carrying a 200 lb pack. Then I can only walk. And, even thought I get out every morning at 6:30 and walk until 8am, sometimes again in the evening, the exercise isn't helping much at all, but then again, maybe it does help, maybe it would be worse if I didn't exercise. I also tried acupuncture and Dr. Bach's remedies, but still have not found anything that helps. All good advice though, very helpful, thanks for posting and thinking of me.
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sorry meant to say Twoapenny! Thanks :D
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Ales, I know what you mean about carrying that back pack! It is really hard work finding your way through that maze - I've been working on myself for twelve years now and have tried so many different things in different combinations - sometimes I feel like trying to get better has been just as tiring as being unwell! Is swimming an option? Some people find that easier, especially early in the morning - nice quiet pool, ploughing up and down. I think it's really important to recognise that you are already working really hard at it - sometimes we forget how much we're already doing (and my waistline goes up and down depending on how I'm feeling as well!). The right combo of vitamins and minerals have been shown to be more effective than anti-ds for a lot of people - the book I mentioned talks about studies where vitamins were used to treat people with schizophrenia with quite incredible results. Does take some time for it to get into your system and stay there though. The other thing to bear in mind with complementary therapies as well is that you usually have to do a number of treatments before things start shifting - sometimes it takes a few sessions before you can feel things happening (and sometimes it's instant, it's funny how all these things are different). I hope you start to feel a bit better soon, it is a horrible situation to be in.
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Hi Ales,
Antidepressants worsen and add more symptoms when I take them. Strong pain relievers don't work for me either. I asked my family doctor why was it so. He first said, I don't know, then added that it is postulated that some people's brains receptors fail to 'receive' the medications.
I honestly don't think that depression was a strong component or perhaps not at all over the years as I've healed. However, in my early life say 20's, 30's & 40's I experienced bouts of depression, not chronically - thank goodness.
When it comes to supplements, I adjust the dose/serving to 1/2. My system doesn't tolerate standard doses of hardly anything.
Different medications have different effects on different people. For instance as far back as I can remember I had trouble coming to full awakeness on rising. Many people experience 'Sleep Inertia' to some degree - say a few minutes to an hour or two. Mine went on for hours and hours. As I got older, it all got worse to the point where some days I never fully awakened. I guess you could say I was a poorly functioning awake person. I had been prescribed Wellbutrin for depression, found out it made my symptoms (not the sleep symptoms )worse. I still don't know exactly what prompted me to try a half dose of Wellbutrin again, but that half dose changed whatever it was in my brain that wouldn't allow me to wake up completely. I've been taking the half dose for about 8 months and estimate that upwards to 90% of my symptoms of trying to wake up upon rising have been relieved. I'm giving this example to expand on how medications can have profoundly different effects from one person to another. It may be of interest that Wellbutrin, the half dose didn't affect me in other way I can think of.
Don't mean to take your thread off subject, but this seems to fit in somehow.
tt
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Hi Ales,
Several years ago someone on this board raved about a super-food (one of those whole foods, greatly concentrated greens powders things). I took it in smoothies and it helped a LOT! Energy changed, everything.
Then I slacked off (it ain't cheap) -- and just this week started doing this every day again. I feel very very very different than I did a week ago. I swear. Life isn't perfect but it has lifted my mood as well as my energy.
It tastes like eating a field (meaning a mix of grass and dirt, bleahh). But if you add a cup of frozen berries and maybe a handful of kale or whatever and then blend really well, it's like sort of weird tasting sludge...not good but not hideous. I just stand at the sink and relax and drink it down. Always happy to have a cuppa tea after and always glad I did it.
(I bought some called Green Vibrance...good stuff.)
xxoo and a hug
Hops
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It's good you picked only 1 thing to do, at a time.
I find if you have a whole list of things, like you listed, and attempt to take them all on at once... well, I find I'm too fragile to put that much MORE stress on myself and then I'm just adding despair and hopelessness to the list, you know?
If you can, I think either attempting to explain to your T that you want to find another way to cope and heal, than simply popping a pill - or, finding another T who will accept that condition and work with you on that goal... should be the next thing on your list. It requires more effort and patience on the part of the T - but if you're also participating, doing your part of the work to the best of your ability - it'll be rewarding for both of you.
Keep us posted, Ales - on how it's going!
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Thanks for all the suggestions, they are helpful.
I called my T's office today and canceled my next appointment. He specifically told me not to cancel. He told me to come in even if all we do is argue about taking the anti-d's. Well - OK - No I wont do that because it will keep me preoccupied with being "depressed" for another week, there is no chance I will take them and I don't think he really understands why I am depressed.
Its hormones, not brain chemicals. 20 years of only working and being single when all I ever really wanted was a family of my own. There is an imbalance in my life that can't rectified with pills. He thinks I will do better if I feel better but all that sounds like is that I will get a job and get overwhelmed again in a direction I don't want to go. I told him that but he didn't get it. I feel very much like there is a part of me that has never been developed I have never been in love, never been a mother, never had someone who truly loves me (except my Dad and a fat orange cat I once had and they both died). Wanna know where my depression comes from? From trying for years to find love and coming up empty...
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Thanks for all the suggestions, they are helpful.
I called my T's office today and canceled my next appointment. He specifically told me not to cancel. He told me to come in even if all we do is argue about taking the anti-d's. Well - OK - No I wont do that because it will keep me preoccupied with being "depressed" for another week, there is no chance I will take them and I don't think he really understands why I am depressed.
Good for you Ales. I noticed that many of your symptoms are also noted side effects of anti-depressants (lethargy, insomnia, weight gain e.t.c..)so the chemical therapy could easily make things worse. It sure is discouraging to so often see a total focus on drugs in the therapy community. I went through my own bout with the chemicals back in the 90's. Just to mention one negative side effect of many, I was gaining about a pound a month as long as I took antidepressants. As soon as I quit my weight fell back into a normal range with little effort.
For me, just any about any change seemed to be a cure, for awhile. I felt like I was cured when I first started taking the ant-depressants, then it wore off. I was cured again with a change to a different drug, then it wore off. I was cured when I quit taking them entirely, then it wore off. Something about the "jolt" to the nervous system temporarily seemed to relieve the depression. But no chemical change has ever been a long term cure. These days I work with diet, exercise, meditation, and so forth and I can't imagine ever again considering anti-depressants.
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Ales,
I read this blog today and thought of you. You may think you know what the author is going to say, based on the title but its a real surprise. The article may explain why your therapist is taking the approach that he/she is with you--and likely would NOT be fired by this blogger. Interesting.
http://open.salon.com/blog/heathersavann/2011/06/02/why_i_am_firing_my_psychiatrist
CB
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SO ANGRY :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Being misunderstood by my T and then being told there is something wrong with me and I need medication makes me so angry :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: and apathetic....... :oops:
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HI CB - Thanks for that article. What gets me is that she was never really quite honest about her feelings. Thats me too. Just last time, I went in as I am during the day, which is sweats and no makeup, which is me around the house (I'm between jobs and looking for work). I only dress up for meeting people - and therapy etc. But this time, I did not. Most of my clothes dont fit anyway now since I gained 10lbs in three months. Anyway, she wasnt quite honest so he really didnt give her the right dosage which probably made her worse.
Is that what you were hoping that I get from the article? If so, you're right on about me, my T has no idea how bad it really is. He asked me once about dark thoughts and I never really answered them. I'm like yeah, I have them. Thats it.
Sad though, this girl has a caring family and a job that seems to be helpful to her. I dont have any of that. Never did.
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I probably have more in common with that girl/author than I care to admit, but I'm still NOT taking anti-depressants.
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Hi CB - Funny thing is that the case resembled me in a lot of ways. I've kept darker stuff hidden even in therapy, mostly because we've just not really gotten down to it. I am the person who "refused the remedy", so its hard to hold him responsible if I failed at therapy or improving my life.
I'm climbing out of the crisis. I just try to stick to doing the three things I need to do and stay busy with that. I just get very easily discouraged and then can stop functioning.
Thanks CB for your understanding and sympathy. I'm getting more good things and concern from this board than anywhere else. :)
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Hi CB - Funny thing is that the case resembled me in a lot of ways. I've kept darker stuff hidden even in therapy, mostly because we've just not really gotten down to it. I am the person who "refused the remedy", so its hard to hold him responsible if I failed at therapy or improving my life.
I'm climbing out of the crisis. I just try to stick to doing the three things I need to do and stay busy with that. I just get very easily discouraged and then can stop functioning.
Thanks CB for your understanding and sympathy. I'm getting more good things and concern from this board than anywhere else. :)
Ales, I am very convinced that our bodies know what we need and tell us - we just aren't always very good at listening to what they say and often block them out with medication, drink, junk food, etc etc. If your body is telling you to eat better and improve your physical health then I would always say listen to that. You might not be ready to deal with your 'dark stuff' yet - there are things I haven't talked to my T about yet and I trust her and feel she really 'gets' me. But I'm just not ready to say the words out loud yet. I think I'm slowly starting to understand that it's more about learning to live with what happened rather than fixing it. I'm starting to feel that there isn't an end point, more a point where I'll be comfortable more often than uncomfortable, feel safe more often than unsafe, have healthy boundaries more than I have unhealthy ones and so on. For me, seeing a T that wasn't hearing what I was saying would be very difficult - I've spent my life being unheard and invisible and I really don't like being around people who aren't listening to what I'm saying. Trust your instincts and do what feels right for you.
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Picked up the phone to call my T and ask him to refer me to someone else (aside from the psychiatrist he wants me to see for the anti-d's) . I've been thinking this is what I've needed to do. I dialed, it rang and then I got voice mail, but I couldn't do it. It occurred to me as I dialed that if I ask to see someone else, I risk not being able to see him or trust him again, so I hung up.
Anyone else have this problem? Wanting help but just not knowing what else to do?
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if I ask to see someone else
Hi Ales,
Do you actually need his permission?
Or is that the inner child feeling afraid?
A good T would not be angry if a client decided to talk to someone else...
but perhaps there's some medical insurance complication of some sort, where you have to have his approval?
(A good T would not be punitive. Ts are human and he could disagree or something, but...)
Don't you have the right, like any other adult, to go talk to whomever you choose?
If so, and if there's not a practical obstacle I don't understand...how about making an appointment with someone new?
You could discuss it with this T later.
xo
Hops
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Thanks Hops for your post.
No practical obstacle - other than I would not know who to go see. I only went to T because I really thought this one would be the end all, he's considered an expert on NMoms. My reason would to ask him would be that he just knows me and how I am to a certain degree and maybe he could make a better choice for me than I can make for myself. Everything I choose seems to work out badly for me so I thought input would help.
I dont really think he would be punitive, but I've known him long enough to know he has feelings too.
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Hi Ales,
I have often found myself wanting help and not knowing where to turn! How is this T other than the anti-d issue? If you had a really clear conversation with him - along the lines of "I trust you and find talking to you helpful but I have made my mind up that anti-ds are not right for me at the present time so I would like it if we could leave those out of the conversations for the time being" would that help at all? I mean is it just the anti-d thing that is a problem or are there other things about him you don't find helpful? Might be that you can tweak what you have with him rather than changing?
If not, are you able to get a list of therapists in your area and contact them directly? Not sure how your system works over there. I've seen two therapists here (through my own choosing), both of whom I contacted myself and then the usual method is you meet for an initial session to decide if you think you are suited. Anyway of doing something similar so you feel comfortable with who you are talking to? Maybe there is someone who is more suited to your natural drug free way of dealing with things? Perhaps that's more important than someone who knows a lot about NMums? I think the damage through abuse is similar, however, you've received it, so maybe focus on what you need rather than what your mum has, if that makes sense?
Sometimes I find if I leave things for a few days the answer sort of pops up - I see an advert or read a book or overhear a conversation - you know those times when it seems like someone is hearing you and leaves you a little clue about what to do next? Anyway, I hope you find someway to move forward fairly soon xxx
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The answer that is popping in my head is that I need a motivational therpaist who can understand where my N wounds get triggered adn I react in a way that sabotages my efforts. Its hard to not be understood or be able to get advice that is truly geared to my needs. I notice in work for example that I keep ending up in certain managerial jobs that I dont really care for, because I'm a people pleaser and need acceptance that happens in collaboration with people. But, I'm truly a creative person. But I cant be creative when I am down on myself, my work then suffers. So I gravitate toward something not really right for me, abandoning the work that will make me successful. The later, when someone above deosnt like me, I've already been demoralized
Its like I have to fight to keep myself on track to do my best work, so that peoples approval of me wont matter much, and if it does, I will then have sound, good work to fall back on. Make sense?
Oooohhh--- this is an epiphany for me right here!
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Makes complete sense I have been similar for most of my life, always thinking about other people, having to be 150% good at everything just to escape a sense of complete failure - I still battle with it now. I did cleaning jobs for years despite the fact I had a good degree because I just didn't have the confidence to do anything else and, I suspect, I didn't want to do a better job than my mum (who also cleaned for years). My T has done quite a bit about triggers and reactions with me - something happens and you react as a wounded child rather than an intelligent, well educated woman. There's also that underlying sense of all those old messages playing over and over again. I really hope you are able to find someone that can help you soon xx
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The answer that is popping in my head is that I need a motivational therpaist who can understand where my N wounds get triggered adn I react in a way that sabotages my efforts. Its hard to not be understood or be able to get advice that is truly geared to my needs. I notice in work for example that I keep ending up in certain managerial jobs that I dont really care for, because I'm a people pleaser and need acceptance that happens in collaboration with people. But, I'm truly a creative person. But I cant be creative when I am down on myself, my work then suffers. So I gravitate toward something not really right for me, abandoning the work that will make me successful. The later, when someone above deosnt like me, I've already been demoralized
I sure recognize this process Ales. I always worked myself into the ground to get some shred of outside approval. Then because I did such a great job, I would succeed in getting some approval, and promotion to supposedly better managerial jobs. Then I'd have to put up with a ton of crap for a few dollars more pay than the lower level employees. I'd burn out and then have to start over in something else. It seems I was replaying the FOO situation over and over, trying to get some sort of validation I never experienced from my parents.
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SilverLining - you hit the nail on the head. Its a FOO pattern that repeats. But its addicting! There are some times I am not even consciously aware that I am vulnerable to it. I have to insist on my autonomy and ability to say NO otherwise I leave myself vulnerable.
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This is the weird new feeling.
T couldn't solve my problems or seem to help me with them. I left T feeling more wounded and insecure than ever. I feel like if I go back with a new job and a new relationship and some weight loss - basically getting back to more of my functional self, it would be only superficial because nothing about me or my past would really have changed.
The outside would look different, but the insecurities and wounds would still be there. Does this make any sense to anyone?
Its almost like I cant succeed now for any reason, because I really wouldn't be different. And, I want to be different, to have progressed in T so that I would know that I could sustain any new life I find for myself. Does this make any logical sense to anyone?
Reading this over, I guess I wanted some kind of acknowledgement or validation from T that I had changed and progressed, so I could be done with my insecure and wounded self.
Does this make any logical sense to anyone? (sorry I'm asking for the 3rd time!)
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Yes, yes and yes! It makes perfect sense. My first bout of depression came when I had finally got it all - great flat, great job, nice car, plenty of cash and v good looking fiance. I had all the things that I was sure would make me happy (which also included being super skinny, naturally) and I still felt like c**p. That was when it all started caving in.
The T may have done more than it seems, in the sense he may have stripped back or opened up a few wounds which is why you feel worse now than you did when you started? I know that sounds daft but I've found my T has had to keep chiseling away at my veneer to start to let it all out. There have been loooong periods when it's felt like nothing's happened but when I look back I can see that she was chipping away at all the blocking out stuff to let the real me start to come out. My homeopath also commented last time I saw him that sometimes it's like grains of sand slipping out slowly rather than big, cathartic changes. Little tiny things are happening all the time, so small that you barely feel it. But one day you do something that you wouldn't have done a year ago, or someone says something and it doesn't set you off in the way it would have once upon a time. And then you realise you did that and think "Wow! That was different".
I think the wounds and insecurities can take a really long time to heal, and sometimes as they heal more wounds and insecurities start to show up and you have to wait for them to heal as well. I think I see it more now that I need to accept my wounded insecure self as part of who I am, I guess in the same way that people have to accept other illness or disabilities. As I've gone along, I am finding that I have longer spells of life being better, and I'm making healthier choices about people, friends, relationships etc. It's not all the time, sometimes I have really bad spells again, but my whole life used to be one big bad spell and it isn't anymore.
I don't know if any of that makes sense! I think it comes, but it takes a long time, lots of false starts and sometimes it's happening without you even realising.
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Reading this over, I guess I wanted some kind of acknowledgement or validation from T that I had changed and progressed, so I could be done with my insecure and wounded self.
Gosh, Ales... we all want this! :D Even after "graduating" from therapy, I want this. I didn't get any certificate signifying that I had overcome any neuroses, that I was cured of anything, that I was done with insecurity or wounds...
Because I wasn't. Therapy was skills training for me. Learning things about myself... including what and where those wounds were... why they hurt... why "I was the way I was". I called it "emotional forensics" - where I could, with help, recreate the original "crime scene" through feeling and memory. Making some baby-steps into new things and reporting back to my T, getting validation... help looking at what I did... and whether my fears/concerns about them were consistent with the real experience.
Learning how to change from the inside out... I heard that loud & clear, Ales and you know - that's how therapy functioned for me. The process however - was me talking, talking, writing, writing, thinking/feeling, thinking/feeling, remembering and putting two and two together to finally get 4 instead of 5... until I finally realized what the "answers" were for ME. Not what someone else thought was right for me - not what was some arbitrary definition of "normal" - but who Amber is, for real. It seemed to go on forever - and then too soon, seemed to be over. I didn't have anything to say... and we just sat there comfortably looking at each other... then chatting about nothing important.
It was shortly after that, when my T said I needed to think about when it would be OK to stop meeting... that I'd be OK "finishing" all the changes I wanted on my own, without help. And you know, I did go back for 1 or 2 "update" sessions after that... it was hard for me to let go of that relationship... where I got reassurance, validation... but mostly where she gently pushed me to open up to myself and recognize my SELF - the actual details and content of which, only really matter to me, you know?
There isn't any right/wrong way to BE... and any outside changes will have to come from the center of the real you, from a "want to" place.
LOL... don't give up too soon! It'll be all right... talk therapy isn't as fashionable as it used to be, Dahling... but for my money, it's the ONLY thing that really works and gets us to a lasting difference, real change, from the inside out.
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The T may have done more than it seems, in the sense he may have stripped back or opened up a few wounds which is why you feel worse now than you did when you started?
Yes, I think this is where some of the problems are. New experiences keep bringing up wounds I have not talked about before and I can see where I get stuck and then make the wrong decision and sabotage myself. There just isnt enough time to address them all. We never get to the newer issues. I keep applying for work, but when that old stuff comes back, I will just drop whatever I am doing and call it a lost cause. I cant go back to where things were and dont have much guidance in moving forward.
I think the wounds and insecurities can take a really long time to heal, and sometimes as they heal more wounds and insecurities start to show up and you have to wait for them to heal as well.
- TRUE TRUE
There isn't any right/wrong way to BE... and any outside changes will have to come from the center of the real you, from a "want to" place.
I was hoping that I would grow in therapy, but didnt - even if I know there is no way to be, I know I cant be the way I am and expect to have anything good change in my life.
don't give up too soon! It'll be all right
I did give up. Last time I went in it was all about anti-depressants, so I cant go back. I had not seen him in six months. I canceled the last appointment because anti-ds was all he wanted to talk about. When I left he told me please dont cancel, because he knew I would. cant go back now. I'm probably a "troubled" therapry patient now. Like I wasnt before.
Thanks for the input everybody. Its just another dreary sunday and I'll muddle through.
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It seems that either these "professionals" try to continuously ram drugs down our throats that are useless to us or they try to ram us into a "pigeonhole" for their own convenience. It begs the question: "When do these 'professionals' really LISTEN and HEAR what we are saying or are we just as VOICELESS in their offices?" What gets me is that these "professionals" ARE BEING PAID TO LISTEN and they ARE NOT LISTENING!
The last psychiatrist I saw was obsessed on me "getting a man and having sex" because, in his view, that would solve all my problems. (Yeah. Right! Fool! :P Just what I need. Someone else's baggage on top of my own!)
I kept repeating: "If I can't have a healthy relationship with myself, how in the hell can I offer someone else a healthy relationship?!?!? (Dumb jack-ass!)
He simply did NOT want to hear that from me because, "in his country", all women are supposed to have men. He kept ignoring the fact that we are NOT in HIS country and American women don't think the way he decrees women should think!
He also tried to go the route of pushing anti-depressants on me after the first batch stopped working and blew my weight up like crazy. Then he told me that I was fat from eating too much! (Can we say set-up for eating disorders?) He was also aware that I'm a recovering alcoholic and recovering drug addict. His response to that was: (a) trying to order me to stop attending AA because he's "jealous", (WTF? :?), and (b) trying to push benzodiazepines on me with the excuse that he "will control my addiction for me!" I managed to maintain my sobriety because I ripped up his prescriptions and gave the confetti back to him. Finally, I realized that he would NEVER hear me and fired him!
Made me wonder how many of these so-called "professionals" have delusions of god-hood?!
Bones
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New experiences keep bringing up wounds I have not talked about before and I can see where I get stuck and then make the wrong decision and sabotage myself. There just isnt enough time to address them all. We never get to the newer issues. I keep applying for work, but when that old stuff comes back, I will just drop whatever I am doing and call it a lost cause. I cant go back to where things were and dont have much guidance in moving forward.
OK... maybe each of these experiences contain different issues; that together just feel overwhelming ... until you find someone with the patience to help you unravel one color of yarn from the tangled ball, at a time. You don't have to solve everything all at once, ya know... and your T should know this, and tell you the same, too.
Maybe there is a "common thread" or theme in all these experiences, too... a way in which a very small moment of each of the experierences involves the same kind of action, emotion, or response from you. These can be important "forensic" clues in your quest to start with a.) why am I like I am?? and b.) how do I start to change that?? There is a feeling; a sensation or awareness of a switch being flipped in ourselves... when we are able to finally stop telling all the story/experiences... and find a big enough table to put it all out on at once - like a thousand pieces of stained glass - and reassemble it into a coherent picture. THEN, it's possible to move forward...
and then, there's practice - like you're doing with running - only with emotional things. You can definitely apply that kind practice to mental/emotional habits... (which a lot of our responses to life are, really)... and get to something new and different; the kind of new and different you're looking for.
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Quick update.
Thanks everybody for the posts and support. Doing much better than I was a month ago. Really hanging in there and making HUGE strides since a couple of weeks ago. I got really frustrated while driving with the old lady neighbor ( a long tedious story I wont bore you with) where I had one epiphany and then a week later, I kept reading this Marianne Williamson chapter on Surrender and had another epiphany. One was a very strong feeling related to my NMother issues, the other, a response to my own wounded self issues.
Today, I was thinking that the NMother issue is PROBLEM SOLVED, although I recognize this isn't the end, there will be further things down the road and the wounded self issues are WOUND HEALED, even though again, I know issues can still come up. Difference is to me that I FEEL that I have some form of closure from the past three years of total HELL I was living in and the feeling of closure, truly feels positive, its hard to explain, but it makes it easy for me to move on and make progress.
I can tell things are different, because I met a new friend today and when she went into the death of her alcoholic N mom, I responded from the place of an autonomous adult who understands my issues with a sense of clarity and distance, rather than the hurt wounded child I have been feeling like in the last three years.
Anyway, thanks to everybody here at the board - you've all been a great help to me. I hope that everyone is doing well! (((((HUGS)))))))
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I had an AHA moment the other day while walking:
the defintion of insanity, doing same thing expecting another result. depression is doing the good things and getting no result.
I decided that the word "depression" for me is really defined by consistently putting good, meaningful effort into a black hole or not having the effort reciprocated, appreciated or rewarded. I then think of effort as a negative action with negative consequences - since nothing good comes out of it. Kind of like being on a hamster wheel when you really want to be on a freeway going somewhere. Ouch.
hmm.. so how do I take action to get desired results?
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Wow, Ales. That was so painful to read, and really triggered some recognition in me.
Such a sad definition but so emotionally logical.
What popped into my head next (that I struggle to do) is that the only answer
is SELF-recognition, SELF-appreciation, SELF-affirmation.
When we (I) are (am) dependent on others' opinions or affirmation to feel good about ourselves,
classic result of being children of Ns...there is no soothing our own grief until we really do
experience self-love.
That kindness and compassion, turned right around so it shines into our own chests.
And, not somebody's else's (although that's huge when it happens). But our own.
I've only visualized it that intentionally a few times (and hypnosis was one of the most
powerful times) ... but when I did, it was very very healing and .... just amazing.
I think, for some, prayer is also a form of self-love. Kind of the long way around to
asking compassion to come in. All the same thing though. I envy the faithful. Their trust.
My grandmother (whom I only remember seeing once) had a favorite hymn, and
I find the lyric as moving and powerful now as I did when I was a theist, as
(ironically) the words are just so...humane:
Come, Ye Disconsolate
Come, ye disconsolate, where'ere you languish.
Come to the mercy seat, fervently kneel.
Here, bring your wounded heart.
Here, tell your anguish.
Earth has no sorrow, that heaven cannot heal.
I don't believe in heaven. But it doesn't matter.
I do believe in the power of that invitation.
Such incredible kindness in it.
And that's what I think we need to give ourselves,
so we won't live depressed. The mercy of tending our own sore hearts,
being as actually (not cerebrally) kind to our sad selves as we'd wish any
"dream mother" had been.
Then, I think we start to get fixed.
If you can find it, Roberta Flack and Donny Hathaway sang that
as a duet on one of her albums. It's breathtaking. When you hear
her sing that? "Come, you sad, sad one..." it is just like the loving
lap of the whole world just invited you to crawl up and feel safe at last.
Even though I don't understand it, I can HEAR it. She was singing
about something real.
love,
Hops
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Bones, Phoenix, Hops - thank you - all very helpful posts. Much appreciated.
Doing much better. The closure I got on those issues last month seemed to be very helpful. Made it through another round of PMS (which is usually awful) without feeling overly depressed.
Next question. OK. I've been NC since summer last year, so about a year from NMom. The inciting incident was her showing up on my apartment doorstep, barging in and accusing me of stealing some of my Dad's (whose been gone since 2000) paperwork. It was really a ploy to tell me she was not going to continue with a financial promise she made. I learned many months later that she did the same to my brother around the same time. We can't both have stolen the same paperwork..... hmmmm......A story for another time.
Anyway, so here is my question. What do I about the NC issue with a prospective boyfriend who I plan to marry? I can offer a good (i.e completely honest coming from an autonomous adult with clarity and distance) answer, but I am concerned about getting married when NC w/NMom. I'm old enough (43) to say "she's not a big part of my life anymore" and have that be acceptable to someone but will be concerned about a backlash in the future . The wedding I want is on a beach somewhere with 10 people - nothing lavish at all and that will likely mean she will not be included. But wonder about the long term effects of not inviting my NMom to a wedding...
Any thoughts on this? What to do, say etc in this situation?
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Bones, Phoenix, Hops - thank you - all very helpful posts. Much appreciated.
Doing much better. The closure I got on those issues last month seemed to be very helpful. Made it through another round of PMS (which is usually awful) without feeling overly depressed.
Next question. OK. I've been NC since summer last year, so about a year from NMom. The inciting incident was her showing up on my apartment doorstep, barging in and accusing me of stealing some of my Dad's (whose been gone since 2000) paperwork. It was really a ploy to tell me she was not going to continue with a financial promise she made. I learned many months later that she did the same to my brother around the same time. We can't both have stolen the same paperwork..... hmmmm......A story for another time.
Anyway, so here is my question. What do I about the NC issue with a prospective boyfriend who I plan to marry? I can offer a good (i.e completely honest coming from an autonomous adult with clarity and distance) answer, but I am concerned about getting married when NC w/NMom. I'm old enough (43) to say "she's not a big part of my life anymore" and have that be acceptable to someone but will be concerned about a backlash in the future . The wedding I want is on a beach somewhere with 10 people - nothing lavish at all and that will likely mean she will not be included. But wonder about the long term effects of not inviting my NMom to a wedding...
Any thoughts on this? What to do, say etc in this situation?
Morning, Ales.
If I may respond based on the experience of dealing with the NQueen at my NGCB's wedding. He learned VERY QUICKLY that inviting HER to HIS wedding was a HUGE mistake because the NQueen NWomb-Donor INSISTED on making EVERYTHING ABOUT HERSELF, HERSELF, HERSELF and tried to force all the wedding guests to feel sorry for HER because her PRIZE POSSESSION , (NGCB) REFUSED TO RETURN HOME TO HER BECAUSE SHE OWNED HIM BODY AND SOUL! She became such a disruption that I finally walked over to her and said: "Shut the F*** UP! This is HIS WEDDING DAY! IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!" (Yeah, I paid the price, later, for doing that and, at the same time, I didn't see any other option.)
NQueens will always remain NQueens and, when given any opportunity, they WILL try to force everyone's attention on themselves and they have no hesitation to ruin anyone's wedding to do so! It's not a matter of "IF" they will do something obnoxious to ruin someone else's wedding day, it's more a matter of WHAT and WHEN they will DESTROY WHAT IS PRECIOUS TO YOU so THEY CAN BE CENTER STAGE AT ALL TIMES AND AT ALL COSTS!
Just saying, if I were you, I would keep continuing the NC and NOT give her the opportunity to do what the NQueen did at my NGCB's wedding. What should have been a beautiful occasion was turned into a nightmare because of her sick and twisted behaviors!
Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
Bones
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Hi Ales...
are you worried about a backlash from Nmom? or from your guy? That part of the question wasn't clear for me. I can see where both might bother you! ;)
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Tough as it might be...oh hell.
I don't have an answer.
Except that by 43, elopement sounds pretty good.
xo
Hops
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What should have been a beautiful occasion was turned into a nightmare because of her sick and twisted behaviors!
In my case, my NMoms acrtions are mostly behind closed doors and no one in the extended family knows that she is the trouble for us (me and brother) she is. I'd almost welsome a chance for relatives to see how mean and malicious she is....what is more likely to happen for me is that something will go wrong behind the scenes that will have a lasting impact but will have no concrete answers or reasoning. Sorry that happened to you Bones - all the wasted drama when life could be better spent getting along.
are you worried about a backlash from Nmom? or from your guy? That part of the question wasn't clear for me. I can see where both might bother you!
You are right! Both. Worried initially that not getting along with a major member of the family is a deterrent to marriage or reflects poorly on me from the boyfriend point of view. Part of it is the "honor your parents" bullshit and that makes me want to consider having a civil relationship with her (even though we are now NC) Weirdly, I'd never think about being phony (nice when you've had enough, nice to keep the peace) to stay on someones good side b/c I hate manipulators and dont like to be phony. That said, I also worry about her having any knowledge of my life. I dont want her involved, I like being NC, so far there have been minimal consequences, but I expect that it cannot last. Something will come along that will require contact or being NC will blow up and the longer I am NC, the more concerned I am that the backlash (whatever it is) will be horrific. And, I dont want anything horrific to come along that can jeopardize my relationship. Yet, I know that is just what could happen.
Except that by 43, elopement sounds pretty good.
Thanks Hops, I agree - I have accepted this and would be happy to elope.
Thanks everyone for responses, as I have no one else these days to discuss these matters with. I appreciate it all very much. :)
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Eloping is a great choice - and romantic, too! When and if, you get to that point in the relationship.
A biggie milestone for me, if I were in your shoes, would be if your Guy accepted that "mom" wasn't going to be part of your experience of family... and why. It's incredibly important to have his support and understanding and validation for your decision about NC. My Ex #2 insisted that I maintain my relationship with my mom and even pushed me to "just deal with it" by sending me off into some of her worst melt-down situations - alone. That's one of the reasons he's an EX, needless to say. And that was before therapy...
My current hubs has met my mom once and after the first night of our visit, agreed to my pleas to get us a hotel room for the rest of the stay. I thought it was important for him to see for himself, first-hand. I really needed him to believe me and have that level of support, since he hadn't had much experience with this sort of weirdness - just his Ex #2. My mom doesn't even remember what my hubs' name is... and he keeps coming up with ways I can cut her phone sessions short - heehee! He's tired of me "going away" and having to transition back to normal and real life after another one of her broken record phone calls.
If I'd known before we ran off to the beach to be married, what was "wrong" I would've told him. I think it would've been OK, too. It was only after we'd been married a few years and I noticed that all my old patterns were getting repeated in our wonderful relationship - and that scared the pants off me - that I got to where therapy was the only option for figuring out what the hell was "wrong" and why I was programmed this way. I don't know that I could be where I am now - without him and all his creative, caring support through the darkest times.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, that your guy is one like mine, Ales.
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Phoenix - Thanks this is great.
A biggie milestone for me, if I were in your shoes, would be if your Guy accepted that "mom" wasn't going to be part of your experience of family... and why.
I'm working on how this can work. I want to be at peace and have harmony with the NM relationship and that might require that he, just like you said, accept that our autonomy as a couple will be threatened if we dont assert boundaries. I am also thinking that now that my brother and I are working on a relationship which we've never really had before, he might be an ally since the NM caused hardships with his wife and marriage. He'd certainly be able to help speak up and offer someones else understanding, so I would not be alone. So, thanks Phoenix, your advice was very helpful.
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Several years ago someone on this board raved about a super-food (one of those whole foods, greatly concentrated greens powders things). I took it in smoothies and it helped a LOT! Energy changed, everything.
Then I slacked off (it ain't cheap) -- and just this week started doing this every day again. I feel very very very different than I did a week ago. I swear. Life isn't perfect but it has lifted my mood as well as my energy.
It tastes like eating a field (meaning a mix of grass and dirt, bleahh). But if you add a cup of frozen berries and maybe a handful of kale or whatever and then blend really well, it's like sort of weird tasting sludge...not good but not hideous. I just stand at the sink and relax and drink it down. Always happy to have a cuppa tea after and always glad I did it.
(I bought some called Green Vibrance...good stuff.)
Is that what this stuff is called?> thinking maybe I should try it.
Sorry for not reading the whole of this thread, but wanted to add my pennies worth: if a T told me to take a drug it'd be the last they'd see of me, and I'd give them an opinion or 3.
Bones said finally walked over to her and said: "Shut the F*** UP! This is HIS WEDDING DAY! IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!" (Yeah, I paid the price, later, for doing that and, at the same time, I didn't see any other option.)
Crikey, that sounds like a movie that needs to be made! I'd love to have been there : )
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Thanks, River!
That day was a complete headache for me dealing with BOTH NWomb-Donor and NGCB! I wasn't permitted to be in any of the wedding photos because I was informed that I was "only the Queen's chauffeur" and not considered a member of the family, (even though I am, unfortunately, blood-related). Both of them made it quite clear they didn't want to be seen with a "Retard". (They called me with that label a LOT back then!) BLEAH!!!!!! :P
Bones
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Well, when you are the person who had the gumtion and the courage to say what I suspect was the truest words spoken that day, you contributed a gift. It may not have been recieved, but they felt the need to character assasinate you, so thats a kind of information in itself, even tho it still doesnt feel good to be attacked, no matter what.
Was there actually anyone there who recognised what you did?
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Well, when you are the person who had the gumtion and the courage to say what I suspect was the truest words spoken that day, you contributed a gift. It may not have been recieved, but they felt the need to character assasinate you, so thats a kind of information in itself, even tho it still doesnt feel good to be attacked, no matter what.
Was there actually anyone there who recognised what you did?
Unfortunately, no. With regards to everyone who attended the wedding that day, I have seen none of them since. There were no comments to me or anything. I recall seeing some people blink but...not a word. It's as if THEY were voiceless!
Bones
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Well they were, and you werent!
Here, you've got one fan here on cyberspace!!
Really tho, there are situations like that, I've been in many, Im a lone voice and it has felt very isolating. And then sometimes, tho not always, I may get some feedback years and years later, and someone tells me that I helped in ways I had no idea of at the time. I think its about 'we do the right thing' and the results are up to ~~~ (God)~~~ or universe etc. Im giving you the badge of courage anyway.
In another way tho, recently I've been playing more beneath the radar in my current training, have had to keep it very diplomatic as I have decided I want to get to the end of the training. I've noticed that even tho its a 'humanistic' institute, its only humanistic as long as you comply. But I dont comply in anyway more than I have to.
How was it for you after that event? If you had said nothing you do you think you would have come away feeling ill becuase it would feel like you had participated in the denial?
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Well they were, and you weren't!
Here, you've got one fan here on cyberspace!!
Really tho, there are situations like that, I've been in many, Im a lone voice and it has felt very isolating. And then sometimes, tho not always, I may get some feedback years and years later, and someone tells me that I helped in ways I had no idea of at the time. I think its about 'we do the right thing' and the results are up to ~~~ (God)~~~ or universe etc. Im giving you the badge of courage anyway.
In another way tho, recently I've been playing more beneath the radar in my current training, have had to keep it very diplomatic as I have decided I want to get to the end of the training. I've noticed that even tho its a 'humanistic' institute, its only humanistic as long as you comply. But I dont comply in anyway more than I have to.
How was it for you after that event? If you had said nothing you do you think you would have come away feeling ill because it would feel like you had participated in the denial?
Thanks, River!
About a month after NGCB's wedding, I had the opportunity to move away from the NQueen @#$% NWomb-Donor and GRABBED IT!!!! For YEARS after I left, she went on a smear campaign, telling everyone who would listen to her, that the only way I could survive without her was by being a whore. The fact that I was working full time, going to school part time, which left NO time for anything else was completely IGNORED. I even got told that my going to school and working on my degree was a total waste of time and space because I was TOO RETARDED TO BE THERE! (Excuse me but college professors don't assign A's and B's to students with that label! God, what a bunch of ignorant N's!)
If I had said nothing, it would have been playing into their SICK games and I wanted no part of that! I had HAD ENOUGH!!!! (And, to this day, some people STILL wonder why I am NC with the remainder of those N's!)
Bones
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I don't wonder, (((((((((((Bones))))))))))).
I'm so glad you got away from her.
love,
Hops
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I don't wonder, (((((((((((Bones))))))))))).
I'm so glad you got away from her.
love,
Hops
Thanks, ((((((((((Hops)))))))))))
Bones
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The fact that I was working full time, going to school part time, which left NO time for anything else
....... means you're doing really well, specially considering the origins you came from.
I hope you can hold your achievements in your heart. x
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The fact that I was working full time, going to school part time, which left NO time for anything else
....... means you're doing really well, specially considering the origins you came from.
I hope you can hold your achievements in your heart. x
Thanks, River.
I try to do that. At the same time, it just hurts that no matter what I do or succeed at, if I encounter any of the FOO, they only see ONE thing which is based on the poisonous lie that the NQueen %$#@ told them.
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Oh gosh! Im having rescue impulses. It does hurt, when that conneciton is still there. In fact it can be an on-going gnawing emptiness, as Ive experienced it.
(My dream is to create proper and effective routes to recovery in peer group setting.) Have needed to uproot emotional investment and to reinvest emotionally to find to find acknowledgement from a different basis.
BTW, anothe way of looking at it, in a truly disordered family ethos, the more they vilify you, the better you're doing, specially if you're not swayed. The disorder has all values back to front 180 degrees. Whats good is bad, and vice-versa.
You are 'creating value'...... created something good where nothing good was originally given. Know this. You are contributing to the solution to the problem that orignally hurt you, though its indirect. Its into the cosmos, not into the foo.
r.x