Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on March 10, 2020, 07:25:10 PM

Title: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 10, 2020, 07:25:10 PM
So the school we attended last in Atlanta is closed due to a teacher passing out with the Corona Virus.  ALL Fulton County Schools are closed to be disinfected with all but 2 reopening tomorrow. 

The one we went to opens a week later... not sure why...  I guess it's to do with the incubation period and testing studen body and teachers before returning?  Not sure but it's NOT on the website.
 
Do we have to wait till 1/3 of the population is ill to THEN begin quarantining and shutting down public spaces where the virus spreads quickly?

OK... I just googled info on school closings and likely action SHOULD there be CV in our County or school system.

Lord THIS MAKES ME CRAVE PIZZA.  REAL PIZZA!

So, I had the flu in January and the girls didn't get it SO I CAN contain it... I know this for sure.

I've committed to taking the boy, with his insurance card and list of meds he can and can't take. I have a list of things I need to feel better about dealing with the virus in the house. I used up all my alcohol and Nyquil/Dayquil when I was sick, for instance. 

I took the last purchase of Tylenol Cold and Sinus to the island so have to get one of or both kiddos to make hte next purchase.  We're out of these things and the pain of flu is so bad...... it's time to replace. 

We have two bathrooms... can have one designated for sick and one for healthy.  Already chose the room where quarantine would happen, if it comes to that.  I anticipate the kids are all healthy enough to weather the flu.  I'll muddle through no doubt, and two kids can drive, if not.

I'm feeling more centered around this, but will be happy to see T in the morning.

Whoo.... I'm not so concerned anymore.  Sometimes I have to go through all the pros and cons... see the big picture, before I find my center again.  THIS is one of those times.

Still grappling with the father sending Instagram messages to underage girls. I'm on the fence about responding to him as a father, letting him know he's on the radar, giving a heads up to local law enforcement after speaking with an attorney who can make sure the right cops HEAR about the complaint.  I don't want this to just go away bc I did't hand over a bunch of evidence.  I want the guy caught IF he's watching child porn, which his dd said he's watching... or if he's sending bad messages to the kids who kept quiet about the first contact, kwim?

Lighter





Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: lighter on March 10, 2020, 10:09:29 PM
Youngest dd said she wanted to shop for things on her list tonight.  We couldn't find alcohol until we got to Ingles.... our third stop.  Lots of toilet paper out of stock.  Lots of cold medicine running low at Walmart, but Walgreens was flush and had a much better deal. 

Youngest, and everyone in the house, has to commit to the xylitol nose spray if they get sick to combat secondary infections.  We each have our own bottle....  we got the last one at Walgreens. 

Everything else we have, which includes Nyquil and Dayquil, just in case.  There's some comfort food.. chips and salsa.... gf pretzels bc we typically don't buy crunchy munchy things.... but mostly things we were out of and needed anyway. 

I feel better saying yes to prolonged stay for the boy, but they know I haven't committed yet should I find I need to change my mind. If I didn't have cold and flu meds and alcohol I would have had a very difficult time saying yes.

Our Governor declared a state of emergency for our State, bc more cases popped up.... not in our exact area, but the high risk kids are being pulled out of school....one is friends with youngest dd and just had her appendix out so she's even more vulnerable now. 

Walking around the different stores meant I overheard people talking on the phone and to companions about what to buy and why.  One lady on the phone said.... "How is toilet paper going to save you from the crono virus?"  Couples tended to have fightin words over choices... the men didn't want to buy the cold meds, etc.  The women were GETTING THE DAMN COLD MEDS!  and that was that. 

Did you guys know that a third of our population believes Corona beer is the cause of he outbreak.  I'm not sure what to say to that... but.... the company is sucking wind right now. 

I've hung the just in case foodstuffs on the pegboard in the garage.. out of sight, out of mind.

The day was mild and sunny.... just on the verge of being downright warm.

Lighter   



Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on March 11, 2020, 05:59:38 AM
Cold here but those short blue bulbs are popping up.

So far no children have been listed as critically ill over here, or at least it hasn't been reported.

Highly worried about this. I wrote some stuff deleted it. I could go on a bit. For those who are at risk this is a deadly situation.

Sort of wish I wasn't single so I could bounce my worry off someone else. Going to finish my beer, lay down, hope I can sleep. Hope I can wake up and make some important phone calls in spite of Universities being shut down.

Most of our schools have already shut down here. Amazon is offering small businesses assistance in a 5 million dollar package because Amazon workers aren't producing the trickle down effect.

I feel sort of depressed.

Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 11, 2020, 07:41:13 AM
SIGH.

I've been following news of this virus since January. That said, it's taken a long time to compare reports and find agreement with the actual data/symptoms. I'll get to that in a minute.

But first, a word from our sponsors...
I have got to say, that my study of the media - and especially daily updates from individual countries, states & cities - creates a repetitive rhythm, a drumbeat of doom, if you will - that activates all that amygdala reflex in people. That fear is reinforced by the lack of certainty over information - generated by conflicting data, claims by "experts", "official statements", etc. Y'all remember the lessons of cognitive dissonance.

You will all do and believe as you choose. But I believe this hysteria/panic and over-reaction (state of emergency for a handful of cases?? REALLY??) is overblown. Seriously overblown. Possibly for some ulterior motive - but who would know that? Not me.

Every year, during cold/flu season (which are coronaviruses, btw) I begin staying home more and limiting my time out in public. All year long - the first thing I do after returning to the house and carrying groceries/other packages up - is to wash my hands. You know, soap & water is more effective than hand sanitizer and it's cheaper too.

I bump up my supplements; especially Vit D & C for winter.

I also stock an essentials pantry all year long - because there are times I just can't be bothered going out, or I'm too busy trying to get some work done, or we get snowed in - whatever.

Now the data:

80% of people who catch this will recover and have no lingering issues

The other 20% are people over the age of 60. Johns Hopkins puts the 60-69 age group at about a 4% chance of developing severe respiratory symptoms; 70-80 - it's more like a 14% chance; >80 is the most susceptible. Add in pre-existing health problems - even in YOUNGER people - the chances of mortality go up STATISTICALLY.

But there are many many variables involved, in who gets sick; how sick; how long they're sick - recovery vs worsening symptoms.

------------------------

I repeat, y'all will do & believe as you will. But the above convinces me that I don't need to do anything any different than I do any other year. And that includes my regular trips out... that I must make, come hell or high water.

The only reason I even think about this virus - is because EVERYONE else is. LOL.

-------------------------

There are lots of OTHER things going on we should be paying attention to.
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: lighter on March 11, 2020, 03:13:47 PM
I'm feeling very level around the virus now. 

I didn't even bring it up with the T today.  Didn't mention I've got the boy staying with us.  Didn't mention anxiety around anything other than a child requiring medical help and I think I've thought that through.

It's a glorious spring day here... just marvelously breezy, cool and sunny at the same time.   The perfect temperature that's almost hot and almost cool but neither at the same time.   It sends happy chills through me.  I remember feeling that in Destin Fla when I was a teen. 

I'm going to pick weeds after posting about the T appointment.

Lighter

Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: Hopalong on March 11, 2020, 04:35:07 PM
I've had a pretty daily hour focusing on what experts, and only experts, are saying. It's pandemic and will disrupt most people's lives. The biggest concern is not How Sick You'll Feel, but how MANY will be so sick that they overwhelm the medical system.

So in a sense, preventive self-isolation (a privilege for those who can manage it) is a gift to the HERD. Our local hospital is a regional trauma center, so it's not just about how many in our city get it, it's about how many at once. With trauma, advanced cancer and other patients coming here from many regional places...we can't afford to be too late responding.

I think preparing for this is different than I usually do for an announced hurricane or whatever. So...I've stocked up more than ever before. Not crazy, but not minimal. I have the 2 gals of sanitizer etc. But also ordered several weeks' worth of frozen vegs and stocked up on rice, canned beans, soups and sardines, etc. Got flour so I can make bread. Have a huge jar of pea protein. Ordered refills and picked up my regular Rx so they're good for two months.

M and I have started a voluntary self-isolation period. We'll avoid all errands possible. I've ordered what I'll need mostly from Amazon and a local grocery delivers.

Mainly this is because he's 73 and I'll be 70 next month and neither of us is highly fit. I have cheesy lungs anyway so why? Told my T today that I also realize it's that I'm quite used to self-isolation as I do it routinely anyway! M's going to continue working on his book and I am going to try to face the domestic disorder demon, and write.

Our Univ. has already cancelled spring semester for anything other than online. They've told students not to come back after spring break and will house and feed those who can't leave, quarantined in dorms. They're not silly, they're scientists.

So though I don't feel panicked, I do feel concerned for what this will be like for folks without the comfort or safety of food income, reliable support, etc. I think I have a good chance of getting through, but people near me in this community may not. We're already mobilizing volunteers to take food to elderly etc.

I think panic and fear and anxiety are just kind of useless because we don't know how it will manifest completely. What we DO know should be enough to get folks to prepare as best they can and hunker down through the consequences.

I hope people will rediscover the pleasures of long phone calls, and reduce their focus on social media, which is poison. In terms of anxiety, it pours gasoline on embers. Even major media, I only want to check once a day. I'll pay attention but prefer Outlander at the mo!

Hugs to all, and safety,
Hops
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on March 11, 2020, 08:39:46 PM
Right Hops, Agreed. Our Senator said he felt it was his patriotic duty to lower the risk for others and reduce the shock to the medical system with the first surge of illness.

20% is still a very large number of people especially if they all start to get sick at once, there is also some issue of liability

there is definitely too many recommendations flying around, I'm getting recommendations to my email from a communication group I was part of years ago (from people I don't know).... it's too much, it pissed me off.

there have been some interesting local things going on that aren't reported until days later in the news, we are trading stories of happenings on Facebook. A friend got a letter from their car service center that someone was sick at the center when they took their car to get fixed... stuff like that. I do appreciate people keeping me updated. It is overwhelming that every source imaginable is putting out info about it though. I'm tired of people talking about hand sanitizer and toilet paper. I say wipe with a wet tampon, scrape it off... whatever, make a homemade bidet with a water bottle.

All we know for sure is that this is ramping up.

(I like Outlander too Hops but I haven't watched the recent episodes!!)

It is interesting to watch the fallout of this:
Medical centers running on LEAN management systems with no extra capacity can't deal with a crisis.
Those in the low echelons of the service industry are important to society AND they sometimes need to call in sick.
OIL value controls our stock markets, our banks etc. Do we really want this type of financial vulnerability...
Should the Fed have more control over medications, pharm, insurance etc.

Anyhow this is flaming up the weaknesses in our infrastructure that people just wanted to ignore.

Sorry. I feel like saying anything about the topic is just adding more MORE.

Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: lighter on March 11, 2020, 09:13:24 PM
Hops:

It looks like we're (USA) not going to be as proactive as we could have been and I don't know where that's headed.  Just that chances for containment are slipping through our fingers daily and the testing is fubar, a money grab (I heard $1,200.00 per test for uninsured folks) and not getting to health care providers. 

And IF IT DID get into their hands.... what would be able to do about it?  Once the Virus is out there.... it's out.  We won't be able to chase patients down, bc we'll be busy deciding who gets access to ventilators.... like Italy.

I'm not catastrophizing... I'm paying attention to the scientists too, and the scientists seem pretty gobsmacked over our response, or non response. 

It's likely the 3 teens in my house would be OK if they contracted the virus, bc they're not so much at risk.... older dd has situational asthma. Youngest has weak immune system.  This boy thinks he has fibro myalgia and for sure has IBS dx.  I had 2 really bad regular bouts of flu last 2 years.  What could go wrong?

For some reason the government is demanding kids keep gathering in closed buildings... grade school, middle school and hs...... until the flu is in our community and our medical systems are overwhelmed.  REALLY?  We have to go there?  For sure?  It's in our State.  It's in my sib's communities.  It's here. 

I've decided I'll go to the lake house IF things get really really bad.  I assume brother and his kids might too.  It's way out in the country.  At some point, the kids are coming out of school. 

And...  I don't see this as "fear."  I SEE a chance to be proactive and nip it in the bud.  I see these chances slipping away daily.  Stating that out loud isn't fear-mongering, it's just an unfortunate truth.

Oh, crap Trumps reading from the monitor now.  No apology for saying this was all a hoax.  I think he must have written it himself..... finger pointing......  It's Europes fault, and Trumps the hero in his own narrative. Of course.  Friday midnight we're suspending travel to and from Europe... I think.  Some exceptions... UK an exception?

Kids are still commanded to go to grade, middle and hs I assume and what would working parents with kids do if the schools closed?   They're waving co payments for those with insurance. 

OK..... the next appointment with my T we're working on reactivity around Trump's face.









Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on March 12, 2020, 03:28:22 AM

God going all the way to Canada for it! Gotta do what you gotta do. They are high risk though maybe they should advocate for time off?

Two people I know right now say they "have a cold". I'm pretty sure it's probably Covid19 considering the timing. Luckily I haven't been around them.

I am feeling a bit scared with the news trying to reiterate the positive, I understand why they are doing it but there are so many people who have "underlying conditions". A few days back while I was on a walk it hit me and I just started crying because I thought shit that is myself and many of the people I know. Our news here was first telling people it's less dangerous than the flu.... bogus.

Fact is a lot of people are on some level terrified. The situation is just compounded that it's slowly growing and the plan has been vague, no medicines etc.

Call me a wimp whatever I am frightened of this. I'm happy to wipe my butt with my hand if I must but I really don't want to get this virus. If it wasn't so cold I would probably go set up a tent for a few weeks just to get the hell away.
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: Hopalong on March 12, 2020, 11:28:47 AM
You're not a wimp, ((((((G)))))).
You're feeling natural anxiety over a big unknown.

If you do the basics and avoid close contact you stand a great chance of NOT getting it.

Isolation is hard but I think people will come together even without coming together. Just with waves and asking folks what they need, setting up phone and email trees, all that.

But truly do limit your reliance on social media if people are spreading fear there.

FDR was right: What we have to fear is fear itself.

Big waves (mental hugs),
Hops
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: Hopalong on March 12, 2020, 11:46:10 AM
(((((CB))))
I can imagine your fears for your kids.
You are one of the calmest mothers I know, so if it's getting to you, the worry-climate is spreading faster even than the coronavirus.

Everyone I know is trying to balance decisions based on their own tolerance, loved ones' risk factors, etc. And nobody can control it perfectly.

I still believe that communities will care for each other. Near me is a street with a lot of elderly, quite a few living alone. People are on their own setting up phone trees to ensure that they have numbers to call if they need groceries, and other people will be checking on them without being called. People will buy or share groceries and leave meals on porches. People will take walks and talk with each other a yard apart, outdoors. The weather is warming so a lot of small meetings outdoors will allow friends to keep from total isolation.

I'm trying to also spend some time thinking of silver linings. Possibly:

--Going through all this together will trigger more humane and less disconnected behavior in communities

--People will be concerned about each other and less focused on likes/dislikes

--People will turn to nature for comfort, perhaps renewing interest in growing food and flowers, even on a porch

--People will turn inward to whatever spirituality gives them comfort and perspective

--People will get more in touch with gratitude, as others show caring and sacrifice

--Politics will be viewed again as the essential core of democracy, not only for blame

--People will take more seriously the primary need for decent behavior over power

I'm still an optimist.

But I'm also anxiety prone, so I'm even more grateful for the Board, and all of you.

love,
Hops
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: Hopalong on March 12, 2020, 12:35:12 PM
Watching this is very helpful:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/health-officials-testify-before-house-committee-on-coronavirus-response/2020/03/12/a8fd8972-75df-4f4b-8a78-2fc5b0cc097e_live.html?itid=hp_no-name_multi-video-bar%3Aposttv%2Fvideo-live-bar-2018 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/health-officials-testify-before-house-committee-on-coronavirus-response/2020/03/12/a8fd8972-75df-4f4b-8a78-2fc5b0cc097e_live.html?itid=hp_no-name_multi-video-bar%3Aposttv%2Fvideo-live-bar-2018)
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on March 12, 2020, 06:05:45 PM
Well our government is afraid of uprisings, that's why they called in the militia, they aren't there to help people.
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 12, 2020, 09:49:43 PM
Hops, I'm glad to see you're calm about this. Does me good.

There are some long-term unknowns about this that equal massive uncertainty, so I do understand people who are anxious about it. We just don't know yet. We'll adapt and adjust.

I think we'll all get through this and looking back - we'll wonder what all the excitement was about. But then, I'm able to take the media onboard - while still thinking about the probabilities involved in the content purveyed. I've always been ruthless that way.

It's not a catastrophe; just more waves of life to surf. Turbulent waves... but we'll rise above.
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: lighter on March 13, 2020, 09:43:55 AM
 CB:

The med shortage is scary and hats off to your kids for being proactive.

Clean away, but watch yourself.  It's so hard not to touch our faces...I really think stylish people cones could be big.

Lighter


Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: lighter on March 13, 2020, 11:59:14 AM
Just spoke with Uncle who said THIS virus is different in that it attacks the weaker cells in the body.

The others... SWINE etc attached and attacked the stronger immune cells, which is why children were so hard hit by them and not the new one.

Uncle said 60% of our population will get this flu. 

He's sent masks to friends in China and said they're on lockdown and can go outside 2 X a week to shop... only one member of the family at a time allowed to go.

I heard this virus doesn't attach to dust and hang in the air like some viruses can.  Uncle said viruses thrive in dry air....that's why cooler months are when flu season begins.  He said virus fall or get transferred to hard surfaces and die HE THINKS in about 6 hours.  On soft surfaces they just fall in and aren't a factor.   They don't live and grow.  They have 2 coatings and alcohol goes through the first one which means it can't be transferred, even if it still tests positive. 

Now, Uncle listens to the news... all of the outlets.   Retired.  Curious.  Studies things that interest him.   These things are what he's discerned after boiling down the info he has. 

He said that Italy has the problem they do bc the Chinese are present there, which is different than when I was there last 27 years ago.  I guess business interests, etc. 

He said we have millions of tests being manufactured now in the US,  but we should all behave as though we're infected,  just to be safe. 

Yesterday my Aunt was saying they weren't concerned, wouldn't be stocking up on TP/food then  today I call and they're in the car with three cases of TP, lots of food and the knowledge one of their healthcare workers tested positive and is staying in his home.

They get their shingles, pneumonia, and flu shots at Walgreens, along with their meds, which they picked up today.

I'm curious to hear more about how the Chinese are doing and what their actual experience is.

Lighter
Title: Re: The BIG V
Post by: lighter on March 13, 2020, 01:29:03 PM
We have a pending COVID-19 dx at a local college... where I purchase my grass fed beef bones.

 An Atlanta friend just texted her husband is in hospital waiting for second test results after first COVID-19 test came by negative.  The CDC will let them know and she'll contact me this weekend to update.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 14, 2020, 03:59:02 PM
Atlanta friend finally calls today.

Going to give the short version here.

Her husband dx'd with COPD in January.  He started running a fever last week and they couldn't keep it down so doc sent to emergency room.  Husband was shaking very badly when they arrived and nurse told them they had 2 indicators(fever and pneumonia I think) to be treated with coronavirus protocol, which isn't what they went to hospital for in first place.  They were given a choice to stay, and be quarantined... I mean... my friend had to pee for 7 hours in the emergency room and she wasn't allowed to access a bathroom.  She thinks there were little gray vessels she was supposed to use... in the open?  She wasn't sure and didn't want to find out.  Husband was admitted and friend given a chance to leave or be quarantined IN the room.  She chose to go into the room where the nurses didn't provide food for her... only husband.  She couldn't go to vending machines or cafe and nurses brought her nothing.  The second day she ordered food delivered to the nurse's station from Jimmy Johns. 

The first test the hospital did was in house, and came back negative.   When the hospital called CDC they CDC said they needed another test.... one they did themselves.  So, that was Thursday and they were just released today without those test results as CDC is buried and just now sending tests out to other sources.  Friend has to remain in quarantine for 2 weeks OR until test results come back negative.

There seems to be cracks in protocol as friend went home before being locked into hospital room with her dh.  She plans to follow the quarantine but she's in a good position to do that.  She'll do banking online and has lots of food in house, but.... I have the feeling she might go out for one particular thing and we're pretty sure there's NOT going to be a positive.  Those with positives will be free to go out, get on flights, etc which isn't the end of the world.  It just extends the time it'll take to reverse and stop infection.

The hospital seemed to be running about the same as normal, in her opinion.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 14, 2020, 04:46:17 PM
Call just came in from school.... as of Monday all schools closed for 2 week period.   No instrctions on what we'll do for that period of time. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 14, 2020, 10:30:27 PM
Asymptomatic transmission may be driving the whole thing:

Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/14/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread/index.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 15, 2020, 09:43:24 AM
Asymptomatic transmission may be driving the whole thing:

Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/14/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread/index.html

And that's a huge problem, isn't it, a healthy person might not show signs straight away (of any condition) and a person with any other kind of illness or difficulty may catch it and be much more severely affected.  I know people who have long term conditions and they have to be so careful all the time, simply because healthier people don't need to manage the risks to the same extent.  I'm keeping son out of college for the next two weeks and then they're on Easter break anyway - at least if I'm with him I know exactly who he's been around and I can keep making him wash his hands. xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 15, 2020, 09:50:05 AM
There are things that aren't adding up for me, lighter. I'm still pretty emotional (for the moment) about this mess -- but it's the OTHER things besides the virus, the various public reactions of some people, the machinations behind the scenes, the entrenched business models (JIT inventory for instance; meaning stores only have 3 days worth on hand - even when demand isn't excessive), and the geo-political-economic things (which I've made a study of the last 10 years).

Plus - not EVERY FEVER is going to actually be the virus. Buck pretty much runs at 100.9 or greater because of the infection - which they're not treating while they address "potential" cases of virus. They don't want him anywhere near an ER right now either.

Meanwhile, I swear we're all becoming hypochrondriacs and imagining symptoms... based on the theory of suggestive hysteria. I know my symptoms are allergy & sinus related. It was sunny and 70 here a few days ago and I woke up to snow this morning; it'll go up to 50 later on today. But I have a runny nose as a result. That is CONTRAindicated with coronavirus.

Take a country full of people. Upend their normal routines... leaving them with nothing to do but watch tv or other media all. day. long. Encourage people to self-isolate to avoid the contracting the virus. Some incredible % of the population takes an Rx for mood/emotional management... or self-medicates. What happens when they run out and the pharmacy doesn't have any - because the components of many of those drugs comes from China. There is already a disruption in the supply chain trickling down... and China's threat to with hold those exports in the future, since they are blaming the US for starting this. SIGH.

And this is why I'm throwing myself into work in my bathroom. It gives me that "flow" where I'm not exactly thinking; I'm just paying attention to what I'm doing; deciding my process; making it so. When I'm done with that - then it's on to seed starting - and there's ALWAYS house cleaning. Here and in the studio.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 16, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
I'm with you and Tupp, Amber. 

House cleaning is a good thing right now.  Our weather is glorious... I picked tons of weeds.

Our neighborhood message board is up and running with people offering help to neighbors.

One immune-compromised mother of 4 will be on the list of those needing help. The elderly who need meds, food, etc.  I have to tell you... that was a huge component for my comfort level.   To see those in need access available help and that help coming from all of us.

On my short street there are 4 homes with elderly people and 2 with younger people.  One elderly couple just got back from Ohio Hospice that shut it's doors to visitors... leaving a very elderly father there.  We still haven't had any identified cases in our part of the State.  Ohio has identified cases and poor Charlotte was pumping gas there, eating in restaurants and in that hospice with visitors up till 2 days ago.

I'll drop food at doorsteps, and leave meds for neighbors. I can imagine everyone taking turns dropping food for people who need help, but I'm not feeling like visiting much.  It calms me a good deal to

A neighbor... she's a pediatrician, walked through the yard yesterday with her husband.  They just returned from Hawaii.  She said the H airport was like Saigon... every one trying to leave at once.  Getting on planes from California that were almost empty when they arrived.  She's needed at work and had to get back, otherwise would have loved to stay in H for a month or two extra.

Sometimes I feel like everything's going to be OK. Sometimes I feel like things are going to get critical bc our leadership is deranged. 

::shaking that out of my head right now::. 

Everyone needs to help their neighbors get through this.

Lighter


 



 





Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 16, 2020, 05:14:15 PM
The Peace of Wild Things

When despair for the world grows in me
and I wake in the night at the least sound
in fear of what my life and my children’s lives may be,
I go and lie down where the wood drake
rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds.
I come into the peace of wild things
who do not tax their lives with forethought of grief.
I come into the presence of still water.
And I feel above me the day-blind stars
waiting with their light. For a time
I rest in the grace of the world, and am free.

--Wendell Berry
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 16, 2020, 05:22:56 PM
I don't know why, but I'm feeling very anxious around my niece and her bf being stuck on the island... well.... it's bc my BIL wants his child home, in Toronto.... even though she has to fly through many Int'l aiports, which seems unlikely since niece fled regular airport the other day..... freaked out at the gate.  What is it that he fears EXACTLY?

IF they can get her on a plane... if they can...if if if.... it's going around and around. Very upsetting, bc I don't see what BIL sees or feels.  My gut told me niece would be safe on the island, where no cases have been identified.... and the boy can fish and gather food...... but then.... what if the island stops getting food deliveries?

What if if if if...... 


When they flew in yesterday.... niece to the island.... nobody said anything about a closing of the borders with no one in or out.  The pilot or the people working the airports.... no one.

They went North shopping today and NO ONE SAID ANYTHING.

How in the world do the NOT give tourists a heads up, for Pete's sake?  Renter said it's bc Nassau has it's first case, but I read another island had a case... 62 yo lady who hasn't traveled which means someone else gave it to her... I guess?

::reading Hop's poem::.

Beautiful but it made me weepy.   

I'm hearing nothing about getting niece off island today or if there's truly a travel ban going into affect. 

Lighter
 



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 16, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Those anxiety waves are hard...I hear you.

I think what people are suffering from most is the unknowing and the unknown.

I find peace in what Berry says.

There is peace in reality. In nature. Our small humble place in things.
In a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiig picture beyond our comprehension.

When I think of that, doing what I can and releasing what I can't, I feel better.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 16, 2020, 09:10:41 PM
Ya... I picked weeds until dark and felt better rolling around in the moss. 
The airline said the  Bahamas flights are running on time.... running all week.  No whisper of a shutdown, so... what was my renter babbling about?  WHAT was all that bulding racket in the background and WHY did he tell me that.

::calling renter again::.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 16, 2020, 09:23:14 PM
Today dd's school gave out 125 chromebooks and connected homes without internet to internet so all kids can partici8pate in online classes. 

Water and power companies will reconnect homes who lost services for non payment and not turn off services for non payment going forward.  This is such good news.

 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 16, 2020, 09:53:51 PM
 Renter said island schools canceled for 14 days.  The fast ferry and all Spring break gatherings shut down, which was what the renter was breaking down.... all the spring break party stuff on the resort beach.  Ummm.... where IN THERE is the island closing down?  Nowhere.  Honestly, renter sounded quite drunk.

Niece will (likely) have no problem leaving island on the 21st.

They have zero test kids so.... should all act like they have the virus and be very careful.

Lighter


 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 17, 2020, 03:45:14 PM
Well, my voluntary self-isolation has reached a full week. Most of my peers are just starting to take it seriously. So I've had some nice calls but it hasn't set in with everyone. We now have two cases in our smallish city. Both believed to be from travel exposure, so community spread hasn't yet kicked in. Everything's cancelled or closed.

This morning for the first time I noticed that although I'm calm, a bit of depression is creeping in around the edges. That takes me straight to my hibernation/avoidance behavior, which is as unproductive as ever. So I know what I need to be fighting.

I read an article on procrastination which said that people afflicted aren't avoiding the task itself, whatever it is is usually not THAT unpleasant. They are avoiding negative emotions they experience during the task.

I want to chew on that for a while. I know the numbing and escaping (sun's out, I could be walking Pooch) is avoidance. So I need to woman up and figure out what the emotions are that have essentially paralyzed me in pushing toward my dreams. (Writing, serene home.)

M, meanwhile, is busy writing up a storm and literally energized by the unusual experience of working without distraction.

Hmmm.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 17, 2020, 04:50:44 PM
Well,  if the tough emotions are signals to pay attention to them..... maybe see what they have to say, Hops.  I'm sorry depression is seeping in. 

Just think...in another week you'll know for sure you don't have the virus and won't get it as long as you keep control of exposure risks. 

I have to mark today as day 1 of my 2 week countdown.

We just had a case dx'd in our area... that person is from New York, but visited our little town recently. 

It's here. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 17, 2020, 06:41:17 PM
It's everywhere. We just don't have adequate testing to confirm
the volume. So that's our baseline reality.

Thanks, Lighter.

Writing that post really helped me. I had another phone call with
my closest most in-sync friend, plus one glass more white wine than
I shoulda...but the result was YES dammit, I'm going to go out and walk,
and Pooch and I had a lovely peaceful walk in this crazy-lovely neighborhood
(especially in spring, daffodils on steroids) and even just the nods and smiles
lifted my mood.

I apparently pushed through the "remain paralyzed" message to remember
how much better I'd feel afterward. And I do.

Tiny tasks when I got home: hauling out both bins (recyclables and others) plus
breaking down a sofa-full of Amazon boxes to put out at the curb.

Even lugged my kitchen compostables collection (pee-yew) to the back corner bins.
Admired my neglected yard. Righted some chairs that a wind or stray deer knocked
over.

BETTER. Much better.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 17, 2020, 10:49:40 PM
PS Light, I have also read we can't assume that that two weeks of isolation are good enough. (Though that's been the initial recommendation for people with exposure only or with very mild cases who've been told to self-quarantine.) Other experts are saying so much isn't yet known that it may be that considerably LONGER periods of physical distancing or everyone other than essential workers staying at home will be necessary. At least in order to flatten the curve.

Like...hunker down and stop waiting for normal to come back. I think they're telling us this every day but there are so many layers of resistance to peel through.

I believe we'll adapt but also that we're in for a very rough ride before we do, and that some of our routine behaviors may have to change looooong term to keep us safe.

M and I are giving it three full weeks of social distancing (now they want to change the term to "physical distancing" since the original undermines positive mental health) before we'll then go inside each other's houses only. I'll do friends-at-six-feet-separation (walks or patio sitting) sometime next week, most likely. But I'll leave bleach spray in the bathroom and ask anyone who goes to disinfect afterward and not forget all the doorknobs. I can't know who's interpreting the instructions as rigidly as M and I are. (We might feel silly later but that's okay.)

It's a weird dance to do in one's own head to find the right stance. And then factor in friends too. My closest friend lives on a mountain with her partner and I think they're in good shape. A neighbor has a bravado personality so keeps shopping in stores over having things delivered. Another has been in deep denial but just came out of it (she was telling me how she was going to go for meditation with her sweet friend who's in her 90s...aacck.)

I keep imagining slight fevers and felt a single light chill earlier today. Meant nothing, I'm pretty sure. But I've dug out a thermometer and will check out my temp in the morning.

Pooch and I really benefitted from our walk. Glad I did it and more tomorrow.

Sleep well,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 18, 2020, 12:02:18 AM
I think you're doing an amazing job with all the change and rules of this new world we're living in, Hops.

Good job moving through paralysis.  Sometimes it's an immovable object, but not for you.  Not today.

I think about you when people are in my zone.... I try to see them through your lense and respond appropriately.

I guess we'll get better and better at it and just have see.

Lighter


Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 18, 2020, 01:34:03 AM
One of the few CBT things that has helped me during times of stress, Hopsie (and this is that kind of weird stress that's very quiet and innocuous - I think we usually think of stress as something frantic and loud) is to focus on the next ten minutes - I'm cleaning all the doornobs - I'm getting Pooch ready for a walk - I'm going to talk to a friend on the phone, and so on.  It's the only thing I can think of that might help just to take things down a notch.  Maybe many ten minute tiny tasks will turn into an entire spring clean over the next few weeks and yours will be the house of sparkle :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 18, 2020, 09:08:33 AM
Monday, I invited my nurse step-daughter and the two (not so) little grandkids (anymore) out. She wanted her Dad's retirement rocker for her hospital office. It was the first day the kids didn't have school... and when I was looking at it afterward, I realized the trip out here actually helped them not freak out about things not being "normal". It was more like a holiday; special occasion.

She's pretty sure the virus has been around a lot longer than it's been talked about anywhere. The ER has been over-run with flu cases... and she personally knows of 3 different strains of that this season. (All tested positive) No positive COVID cases. My state, was the last to report a positive case somewhere... yesterday.

Huge complication for Hol, is that part of her DUI sentencing includes alcohol education classes (10 weeks), substance abuse counseling (6 months), and optionally, weekly AA meetings. IN the state, she can't drive in for 3 years. LOL. These classes & sessions are about 2 hours long. This is all state mandated and she can't miss but 2 sessions before she has to start over from the beginning and she MUST pass... to fulfill the requirements of the sentence.

No idea right now how the virus will impact all of that. There's a pretty big range of possibilities there. I do know that life (when I have been out) is going on about like normal around here and the city over the mountain.

I have no contractors here this week; they're working on another job - and the last carpenter to work in my bathroom has been out sick the past 2 days. I called into the office to alert them to an issue at the hut and see if I could beg a few more free days to finish the walls & drywall ceiling in there.

Steve isn't working since all the large events in DC are cancelled. One of his crew members tested positive for the virus. John is here; being his quietly useful self, working on art projects, and he & I have chosen to make food a main activity around here for the next month... since it's apparent that we'll be dealing with a disruption for at least that long. So far - the usual tensions of cabin fever aren't even close to setting in here. Hol has been trying to finish a quilt before a birthday; I'm working on the bathroom; John has projects & exercise to attend to - and will lend a hand anywhere needed... and we're not just all staring at each other wondering what to talk about yet. LOL.

Buck's D is all out of sorts because school is cancelled; college walkthrough cancelled; and PROM was cancelled - date shifted to May. She also wants to give away all their supplies & food to her bio-mom and his ex (who's had pneumonia twice this year so far)... and is mad at him, because he's not "compassionate" enough. She doesn't quite understand that survival oftentimes means thinking of your own needs first. They don't have a lot; given the limited income. And what he's doing is protecting her... but of course, she doesn't see it that way.

In the survival community, there is a whole set of psychological issues that is discussed and known as people react/respond to isolation, quarantine, scarcity of resources, boredom, and interpersonal exhaustion. (ie, LACK of private space/time) Think the kind of thing people on a spaceship have to be able to endure, and live through together, and overcome. There are all kinds of knowledge & skills needed too. Any "issues" in personal relationships are going to be magnified if people are continuously together without respite.

I no longer care about the origins of all this virus, or the theories regarding it... I'm looking at the secondary, and later impacts to all the systems that make up our "normal" life... planning for adjusting to what I think is likely to happen and pondering what I might do for ALL the possibilities... all while dealing with the thing right in front of me for now, until completed.

With kids out of school - be aware that the older, mobile ones are going to be up to hijinks, shenanigans, and likely vandalism. Especially in rural areas. I found a message in my mailbox that was curious and when I asked the postmaster, she remembered that one of my neighbors reported tampering too.

Physical work & activity is absolutely the BEST option in a situation like this... for dealing with fear & anxiety. IMO.

I also have a business to shepherd through this time. And an upset, angry brother - who doesn't understand the "hysteria" and panic over this. My advice to him, probably didn't help. LOL. But then - he lived though the same irreversable loss of "normal" that I did (with different experiences) all those 50 years ago... and he's always resisted and tried to deny change as a result. I'll be dealing with that situation the next couple days too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 18, 2020, 12:30:17 PM
I think physical/practical activities are the way forward, Skep, I'm planning on using this time as a sort of spa/life evaluation/getting things done period.  Son is in the high risk group and we've been advised not to leave the house unless absolutely essential.  I went to get groceries at 6am this morning, thinking that there would be less risk if there are fewer people about.  Son stayed at home.  Everyone else in the queue was there that early because they had, or look after someone with health problems and they were all having trouble getting even basic groceries because of the panic buying.  A friend has just called to warn me that a friend of his (who is in the army) is getting prepared for deployment on Friday to ensure a complete lock down.  I don't know if that's true but it's a bloody scary prospect.  Just really hope that this changes people's habits and attitudes - we need public services, we need communities and we need to value people more than we value hard cash.  I'm clinging to the hope that the disruption and lack of access to things we take for granted will make people see that we can't all carry on the way we are.  Unfortunately I don't think the death toll will do that unless people lose someone close to them xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 18, 2020, 03:08:53 PM
CB:

The calm and acceptance you're exhibiting is healthy and helpful to everyone around you, IME. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CB123 on March 19, 2020, 03:52:35 AM
Thanks, Lighter, it comes and goes. Like right now its 3 in the morning and I woke with a start over the immensity of what is happening. I've been almost giddy with the excuse to not be out and about (true introvert) until yesterday it began dawning on me that this is not going to resolve as fast as I first thought

The middle of the night has always been my nemesis. By morning, I'll be calmer.

It helps me to read how you work through your anxieties and encourages me to sit with my feelings and see what's there. I don't think I do that very much because I have had a sense that how I feel gets in the way of what I need to do. Like I will drown in them.

CB
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 19, 2020, 12:43:11 PM
CB,
What amazes me about your posts is how measured and thoughtful and reality-based you are. WHILE keeping track of six children, several in the high-risk category.

It's a testament to who you are that they all appear calm and mature in their plans and practices, as you are.

I'm really sorry to hear about the employment insecurity (much less your greedy boss taking advantage).

And I hate the idea of you waking up filled with worry. I am beginning to believe that this extraordinary video will be my nightly bedtime story until the pandemic has passed.

In addition to individuals' stress and losses, my thoughts are turning to life-after. I don't fully comprehend how deep the changes in our society are going to be. My mind has turned to the Great Depression but I hope that's overblown.

M and I are ordering seeds and planning our little veggie beds in my back yard. It's something for him to think about anyway (he has no good garden space).

Meanwhile I'm watching Trump blame the media for everything. He makes me SEETHE.

Hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 19, 2020, 09:43:23 PM
CB:

I'm right there with you..... the fear, the shock, the passing giddiness.





Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 20, 2020, 01:25:34 AM
Sorry, forgot to include the link:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ps22+i%27m+gonna+love+you+through+it (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ps22+i%27m+gonna+love+you+through+it)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 20, 2020, 03:40:58 PM
As identified cases increase locally (about 8 now), a bit more fear.
Also, perhaps, noticing how friends vary in their safety practices, is something to navigate.

A good thing is M is being very intense about all of those. He set a rolled down to the outside bags outdoors and called to the delivery person to please remove the groceries from the existing bags, place them in his bags, then he'd bring them in.

And when he came for our first six-foot-walk-and-talk yesterday, he brought me a gift of wine (and a few latex gloves) in an "old clean bag." I appreciated that.

I still worry a bit about complete trust in his practices but generally I think he's a good partner in prevention. Hopefully, after the full three weeks since he returned from California (after shaking uncountable hands for three days) is up, I'll feel safe having him come in my house and me go into his. If that works out with neither of us coming down with it, then we'll have our "virus safety zone" to go to and from.

But I need to get an honest answer from him about the last time he was out and about. What if he got gas somewhere, gloveless, and didn't sanitize his hands and door handle before getting back in the car, for instance? I'm not sure he'd have thought of it.

Anyway, these are the thoughts that make me uncomfortable. That plus every momentary spring-allergy symptom I'm feeling. Aaarggghhh.

The bigger darker realization is the whole "life as we know it" changing forever. If it's 18 months, I figure most people who stay well will endure it and be okay. But that's a position of privilege, which half of us don't have.

I think my healthiest goal should/could be to stay in the present. Keep practicing prevention and physical distancing, and focus on deeper beauties and life itself.

Just rambling corona thoughts.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 21, 2020, 10:59:55 AM
UGH. I must go out.
Ordered too much stuff for the duration and my checking account tapped overdraft line. It's okay as I can transfer from savings.

But I have to do that at the bank, can't yet do so online.

I'll use the drive-throughs and sanitize hands like crazy.

Not ever touching face is a big challenge for me as something's always itchy: nose, eyes, etc. Allergy season.

Off into the Scary World.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 21, 2020, 11:04:20 AM
Maybe take an allergy medication you go?  Honestly, big dog cone structures, for people, are a good idea, IMO.

Online banking is so easy, Hops.  You have to get that set up, but you know that.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 21, 2020, 12:38:36 PM
All went fine. Used the drive-throughs. Put my ID in a sandwich bag, held ATM card by its corner which I also sanitized afterward.

I do online banking but refuse to relinquish paper statements, so don't have full access to current balance. My reason is I prefer working on paper if I'm sorting out something and also, I'm wary of access dependent on computer functionality alone. What if for example, during the pandemic, a computer can't be repaired or phone trunks tank?

What I need to set up is how to transfer from the credit union (savings) to the bank (checking). I'll figure it out. For now, math meltdown averted!

And my two gallons of plain hand sanitizer get (60% alcohol as required) arrived! I had thought they were ripping me off.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 21, 2020, 02:53:06 PM
I got off-thread by posting to Tupp about shopping, etc., so realized I needed to post my reply to her response here instead:

Sounds like you're doing a great job, Tupp.
Sorry for the paranoia.

If online shopping slots means, online ordering for delivery, weeks is a very long wait.

Locally, our grocery stores are still delivering, but delivery is several days out (after you place and pay for your order online, you choose the next available delivery window--one store's site said "Unavailable, check later" but when I reloaded the page 20 minutes later, a delivery window was free). Patience and persistence.

I'm so sorry that's not available for you. But your serious virus hygiene is better than mine! (Decided to let delivered goods--cans or jars--just sit for several days but literally disinfecting each can is a lot. Seems like three days is guesstimated as how long it lasts on plastic--which makes dealing with plastic shopping bags nightmarish--and one day for cardboard. Letting delivered boxes just sit for a few days before opening them, and washing hands after bringing the box indoors, seems rational.) Still, it's a lot less risky overall (packaging, etc) than the direct risk of being around other people. So perhaps the fixation on what comes indoors is overblown.

For some stupid reason I'm more scared today. I can feel the surge coming like a heavy dark stormfront that's steadily lowering down.

AAAAGGGHHH! I am so grateful to be able to vent about it here.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 21, 2020, 03:10:09 PM
I got off-thread by posting to Tupp about shopping, etc., so realized I needed to post my reply to her response here instead:

Sounds like you're doing a great job, Tupp.
Sorry for the paranoia.

If online shopping slots means, online ordering for delivery, weeks is a very long wait.

Locally, our grocery stores are still delivering, but delivery is several days out (after you place and pay for your order online, you choose the next available delivery window--one store's site said "Unavailable, check later" but when I reloaded the page 20 minutes later, a delivery window was free). Patience and persistence.

I'm so sorry that's not available for you. But your serious virus hygiene is better than mine! (Decided to let delivered goods--cans or jars--just sit for several days but literally disinfecting each can is a lot. Seems like three days is guesstimated as how long it lasts on plastic--which makes dealing with plastic shopping bags nightmarish--and one day for cardboard. Letting delivered boxes just sit for a few days before opening them, and washing hands after bringing the box indoors, seems rational.) Still, it's a lot less risky overall (packaging, etc) than the direct risk of being around other people. So perhaps the fixation on what comes indoors is overblown.

For some stupid reason I'm more scared today. I can feel the surge coming like a heavy dark stormfront that's steadily lowering down.

AAAAGGGHHH! I am so grateful to be able to vent about it here.

hugs
Hops

Maybe you feel more scared because you had to go out, Hops, it means leaving your sterile bubble and makes it all more real.  But I hope the scared feelings go down again soon.

Yes I am religiously washing every item that comes in to the house, cleaning, my clothes go straight in the machine when I get back, disposable gloves straight in to the bin, and I'm cooking and preparing food with gloves on as well.  Son and I are both washing our hands constantly and you know, I have a lot of faith in my natural preparations to help boost our immune systems.  My gut is telling me we are going to be okay with this and I'm putting my faith in that as well.  I think the lowering of my stress levels must be working miracles for my immune system as well, and for son's!  My friend said on the phone this morning that today is the first time in years I haven't sounded exhausted.  So it's really noticeable.  I just feel like we're going to be okay, and we are being very careful, plus we started taking more care before most other people.  Our chinese medicine guy has herbs to help with symptoms, tried and tested during the Chinese outbreak, and while they won't cure the serious cases, they can help to reduce and manage the symptoms in the early stage or if you get a milder dose so he's on standby to post those to us if need be.  I feel like we've got a good chance (and definitely better than all the people who were still going to the pub every night).  Son is taking it very seriously and reading news updates; he's very good at being aware of facts but not becoming overwhelmed by them.  And nothing for you to apologise for, Hopsie, it's nice that you care :)  I am now prescribing you a lengthy session of Pooch cuddling to help the fear subside :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 21, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
Thanks, ((((Tupp)))).
I replied on the Coronavirus thread since I was venting all about that.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 22, 2020, 10:37:20 AM
Well, all that sounds a tad extreme to me. But then, my "social distance" is automatically better than most people's. John and I did venture out yesterday to the store, to fill in some gaps from the other two previous trips. I checked with cashier to make sure that they were still getting deliveries (IIRC, this store's distribution center is in NC).

I still have contractors working - but since they're now juggling schedules between multiple jobs - they aren't here every day. The hut is getting close to "livable". We can do everything needed to complete my bathroom - if they don't (I'm pretty sure they will.)

Sales at the shop got scary quiet this past week. And I had to take a day to wrap my head around decisions I never ever thought I'd have to consider. But yep; situation is real - whether the panic & hype & misinformation/confusion is or not. Decided to wait this out and not do anything right now; while we see what happens in the business world as a result of self-isolation, work from home stuff, and plants shutting down. My guys can't operate machines and make things from home.

We're all finding ways to stay busy; get work done around here. All my seed starting supplies are here - and I need to check on whether my plow is ready to pick up next week. I have been spending an inordinate amount of time online anyway... on top of work. But things got VERY quiet last night. I think that apocalypse fatigue has set in and no one has any space left in their brains to talk about anything except the virus... and we're all sick of that topic (pun intended).

The one thing that scares the bejesus out of me, is the possibility (just a rumor right now; officially denied a little too vehemently) of a two-week nationwide shutdown. That's going to absolutely kill a lot of small & medium-sized businesses. Maybe mine too. And once those jobs are lost and the business bankrupt... they aren't coming back.

I have some more financial/legal stuff to attend to next week before I CAN'T get it done. Just tying up loose ends from the big pile of estate work from last summer.

No one knows what's going to happen. But spring IS HERE... and we need to make hay while the sun shines. And just not go bonkers over this. I currently don't know anyone who's tested positive for this - but it does appear the Kevin Bacon rule - Six Degrees of Separation will apply.

Time for me to eat a little something and get the poly topcoat on my bathroom wood walls - so the smell can dissipate before I try to sleep in here tonight.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 22, 2020, 12:17:38 PM
Amber:

I've noticed many neighbors doing home and yard projects. You're not alone. When the Hol Hut is livable, will Holly plan to move right away?

 I don't know what to say about the economy and businesses shutting down.  It's a new world.  I'm in shock... not really processing it fully. It's bad.   

My brother suggested we work on the cottage, rather than sit idle here. His business is very slow and youngest dd can keep up with online school.

 DD19 wants to take baby girl pug. We bought a huge bag of food and have many months of heartworm meds so I guess that would be OK.

The boy doesn't have a passport or I'd ask his mother if she wants to send him with us.   My personal 2 week countdown calendar (for showing or not showing symptoms) will be up on the 24th, so will plan to return him to his mother on that day and continue zero contact with outside world. 

I'm going to sew some masks I found a pattern and directions for on the web.  They won't be pretty, but they'll have some ability to protect.  I assume the boy's mom has masks bc her mother works for a worldwide emergency response team.  A good woman to have in your corner during a crisis like this, IMO. 

I moved the vet tech appointment for baby girl pug.  That way we won't be exposed to anything before boy goes home.

Amber, is your plant/company one that can be retrofitted to manufacture safety gear or something in demand right now?

That might be a silver lining entry.

Lighter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 22, 2020, 04:21:36 PM
That's a big no on making something else, Lighter. But that said - once the worst is past, IF we can hang on till then and things start functioning again (still clinging to that idea for sanity) what we make will be in demand.

It helps a ton that our company has no debt. So we're better off than some. If Congress votes for the payroll tax relief, that will help a little too. A lot of the employees are paycheck to paycheck and can't afford to be off work - without pay. We do have sick leave... personal days, etc. But I'm still unclear on what happens to an employee that DOES get sick - or has to isolate - that's a lot of people for the gov to support. We will TRY to take care of our own, but when things are this dire - the choices are between bad & worse.

I think there was a collective sigh of relief when I said we weren't going to just shut down - without a good reason. That said, it's really good that I have a mentality of being prudent and putting back some for a rainy day - just in case. This is just in case. Sure, we saw the virus coming at the turn of the year. But no way we could've anticipated this over-reaction in response.

It will just about destroy the country, if some of those longer-term scenarios of how this is going to play out actually happen. So everyone here is going to learn to start seeds, plant and care for & preserve food. Might try to source some new chicks too. Something ate the ones that moved here. I wish something would eat the rooster, too - LOL - but we will need him if we want eggs. The geese are laying eggs now. Just have to find 'em.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Well, the shock's wearing off.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CB123 on March 23, 2020, 12:00:49 AM
Skeptical, you will have eggs even without a rooster--but no new baby chicks. Rooster could make a stew.

CB
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 23, 2020, 12:13:06 AM
Excellent article on over-reaction to the virus:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/3/20/21179040/coronavirus-us-italy-not-overreacting (https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/3/20/21179040/coronavirus-us-italy-not-overreacting)

Happy gardens, chickens and spring anyway.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 23, 2020, 07:58:10 AM
At the farm, things are normal. Contractors are here this morning, early again. Town is pretty normal too. Saturday, John & I made a run out with a list... and got everything on it; no shortages, but then I wasn't needing any more meat. LOL. Plenty of traffic; people still hauling equipment & wood around (temps are chilly here still).

So when I look at news or first-hand report from people on the forums I frequent - I have that strong cog-diss perception. Stuff just ain't that bad here. Maybe I need a "yet" at the end of the previous sentence. LOL. I don't know, but since no one is even that sniffly around here... I'm not worrying.

We've gotten silly; my lectures about spending time constantly together and tensions between all of us... have been taken on board and people have been minding their own reactions.

The shop situation seems to have been a result of some panic. I took a deep dive into the numbers... had a conversation with the bookkeeper... came up with a basic plan of not acting just yet... and sure enough sales for the week are only a tad bit off; nothing to fuss over. Confusion, uncertainty, and fear can certainly magnify & amplify our perceptions and reactions to those perceptions immediately.

With the guys working in the bathroom today, I'll probably go out to the studio and sew the shorts I cut out last fall. I'm certainly going to need them in a month or two. But a little "admin" business this morning will also keep me occupied. Hol said the siding is here for her house. I don't think they'll work in the rain today/tomorrow - but there's still plenty to do inside. She still needs to go pick up some more chimney pieces for the woodstove.

So, for us - there is a LOT of normal here; nothing all that strange is going on. It looks like we're going to have to think about mowing soon. LOL.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 23, 2020, 11:12:50 AM
Well.... the plant doing OK is a relief, Amber.

Everything seeming normal up there is a comfort.

I'm glad everyone is minding their responses.  That sounds really hopeful.

One of my dds is starting to climb the walls and her anxiety is typically aimed at me and her sister.  I'll have to think about my response for the next time.



Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 23, 2020, 01:20:51 PM
That sounds really good, CB.

I got my latest order too (placed it 3 days back). Now I realize I ordered way too many cans of tuna, but no harm. I also got cartons of egg whites and egg substitute to freeze. If anything, I won't starve to death but overeat.

And soon I'll be getting greens planted in the veggie beds.

I'm glad your kids are doing okay and love the rituals you're developing of talking in the evenings.

Pie? I wish I knew how to be in the same building with pie or cookies without losing control. Sugar is Da Beast.

Well, just wish I could come over to your apartment and have two freshly baked cookies with you!

I ordered a stevia-sugar blend to try in my bread maker. Just enough to feed the yeast. I have a very dull WW recipe and wish I could make it tastier. Dunno how.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 23, 2020, 04:07:44 PM
Yummy.

Sounds like you're a wicked good cook, CB!

I'm just wishing I knew how to modify an old bread machine recipe; the machines seems super finicky. My kitchen's too sloppy to add on hand-prep right now.

I do have LOADS of WW flour, couple more packets of yeast. And a container of sunflower seeds. Maybe I'll just add a half-cup of those to the next run.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 23, 2020, 04:21:13 PM
I was really looking forward to many happy focaccia baking posts!
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 23, 2020, 05:14:10 PM
PM has just announced the UK is on lockdown.  All non-essential businesses to shut down with immediate effect, no more than two people together at a time and trips out only for food, medicine and other essential supplies.  One outing for exercise a day permitted.  One and a half million people are considered high risk and have been told to stay indoors and self quarantine, with the army delivering food parcels.  Over 70s advised to self isolate for twelve weeks along with others in higher risk groups, which includes son.  Every system is in meltdown; they've essentially promised benefit payments to millions of additional people when they're already short staffed for the existing claimants so no-one can get through on the claim line and online enquiries are going unanswered.  The NHS doesn't have enough nurses, beds, ventilators or protective clothing to keep the staff safe.  One hospital has already had to turn people away and another was asking on Twitter for soap because they'd run out.  Both the Army and the police have been massively cut and underfunded over the last decade.  There is no way there are enough of them to enforce a lockdown.  Fines and arrests are possible; someone has already circulated a photo of a very handsome police officer saying "I hope I get arrested by him " :)  Lol.

There are terrible problems with food shortages; the government have known about this for nine weeks and have been able to see other countries get it wrong so could have prepared.  But many of our government officials are essentially in post because of the families they were born in to and the people they know and they don't have the necessary skills.  Nurses are posting videos of themselves stopping to buy food after 48 hours of back to back shifts and there's nothing for them to buy.  Our regular supermarket have set up a priority scheme for disabled people and registered us on it, which is great, but demand is so high I couldn't get my order through and they only reserve the delivery slot for a specific time so I've lost my place.  The corner shop has very little in.  I will go out to the supermarket first thing to see what I can get.  The farm shop will take online orders to be collected so I could email them and then go to collect in the evening; I can load up son's wheelchair.  Lots of people are volunteering to collect shopping for people but there's no food for them to get.  People have been fighting over toilet rolls.  New mums have been unable to get milk for their babies.  It's an absolute shambles.  I have enough for at least a couple of days anyway, and one can of Guinness in the fridge which I think I will need tonight! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 23, 2020, 05:30:24 PM
Oh and I forgot to mention, they released information today for doctors to decide which patients get the ventilators if there aren't enough to go round and son doesn't make the grade.  They've categorised people according to what they can do for themselves, the category that son falls into are likely to be given palliative care, no attempt to save life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 23, 2020, 06:34:13 PM
Tupp, I'm so sorry. What a shambles.

I hope you will order as much as you can even if you can't pick it up for a week.

It is a SHAME you have this feeling of siege. But if shops are going to empty of products there must be some other way for you to get food in. Don't give up!

Keep trying, keep ordering, I'm sure you'll take ANY delivery or pickup time window on offer. Even if you have to place a new order every single day until one goes through. Hitting refresh like a zombie.

I feel worried about you running out, but I hope this worry is overblown. Rice and beans. I ordered too many cans of tuna and wish I could send you some!

Big comfort and hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 23, 2020, 09:20:52 PM
Tupp it seems your stores aren't limiting purchases...which is just nuts, IME. 

Maybe this will clear up when they finally DO that to limit panic buying. 

Everyone gets something if they set limits..... shelves are getting stocked.. it looks like. 

Ask your neighbors for help.  Perhaps some of them are hoarding and won't mind sharing with you.

Lighter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 24, 2020, 03:24:49 AM
Thanks, guys, all good ideas but the infrastructures aren't coping with demand and that's the main problem.  They are limiting purchases and have been for the last week, but it's still selling faster than they can get it in.  They've set up designated times for elderly, disabled, carers, key workers and so on, but that doesn't guarantee there's food there to buy, if I go at those times (which are several hours after earliest opening at our local store) I might not be able to get anything anyway.  If I go to different shops I have to take son with me, because of the distance, and that puts him at more risk.  The visa system is overwhelmed at the moment so I can't verify my purchases to get the order through.  Websites are freezing and crashing because so many are trying to get online at once.  The phone network is overwhelmed so I couldn't get through on the phone last night to try to pay over the phone, you get a message saying the network is busy and to try again later.  The lines aren't open yet today.  My benefit payment is currently frozen because I've not been able to get through to update my earnings this month, for the same reason - they're so swamped that the phone companies just put out busy messages and the online system crashed as well.

I did get most of what we needed this morning but they're out of even baking basics - no butter, no flour, no yeast.  I've got enough for now but it's very sobering.  The staff are all working so hard, and they're at risk - it's impossible to practise social distancing in shops because the aisles aren't even wide enough for people to pass each other without getting closer.  The staff are working in that all day.  I thanked one lady personally and after I'd done that one of the staff gave me a plant.  I don't know if they were giving them out to everyone or if it was because I thanked that lady but I bought them a tin of biscuits for the staff room as well and gave them to another lady on the way out.

The main difficulty is son; his autism means his diet is very restricted because of oral sensitivities so there are lots of things that he physically can't eat.  He can't get them down without gagging and being sick.  That's my main worry, is getting in enough for him, keeping in mind he is full grown man size and eats portions accordingly.  Neighbours and local volunteer groups are all doing what they can but they can only get in what's available.  It's just so shocking to me that they knew about this in January and we're now almost end of March and they still haven't sorted their shit out.

And the DNR orders on people who aren't considered worth saving just rips part of my soul away every time I think about it.  In practise, it means they would save a violent, aggressive person who harms those around them over my lovely, sweet boy because the horrible person is fit and healthy and my son isn't.  We've already had a decade of savage cuts for sick and disabled people and yesterday they were tabling a bill to relieve local authorities of their duty of care for sick and disabled people - which means support can be withdrawn in all but the most severe cases and there will no longer be any legal duty to make adequate provision in schools or colleges.  They're all just disposable and the lack of care about their quality of life just tears me apart.

Anyway - I have got some stuff in which is the main thing for now.  I will be spending the day planning, prepping, making lists, trying orders, doing what I can.  If I can't get something there is a local group I can post on to see if anyone else can help.  I did have enough stuff yesterday to make flapjacks, which I love :)  And the most bizarre thing, when I walked over to the shop this morning I swear the air feels cleaner.  Just when you breathe it in, you can kind of taste that it's fresher?  It's making me feel like our next move might be somewhere more rural.  Something to think about xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 24, 2020, 07:55:54 AM
I got a food order through.  Thank goodness.  No idea how much of it will arrive, but I at least have enough for the next couple of days and I can re-jig everything once I know what's in tomorrow.  Has taken the pressure off a bit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 24, 2020, 10:28:43 AM
WHEW.
I am so glad to hear it, Tupp.

As to the politics and news, I'm with you in
taking full breaks from it all. You just can't
absorb the feelings of injustice along with the
actual biological realities of protecting yourself.

It's too much.

So I am so so so glad you have food adequate for a while.
It has to be hard on you and son.

I hope you can continue to place food orders as often
as you can until the cupboards are full. Dehydrating
veggies and fruits in the cooker at low heat is one good
way to put things by.....

You are a pioneer woman, that you are.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 24, 2020, 11:26:33 AM
WHEW.
I am so glad to hear it, Tupp.

As to the politics and news, I'm with you in
taking full breaks from it all. You just can't
absorb the feelings of injustice along with the
actual biological realities of protecting yourself.

It's too much.

So I am so so so glad you have food adequate for a while.
It has to be hard on you and son.

I hope you can continue to place food orders as often
as you can until the cupboards are full. Dehydrating
veggies and fruits in the cooker at low heat is one good
way to put things by.....

You are a pioneer woman, that you are.

hugs
Hops

Lol, I felt like a flaky pastry woman earlier, Hops, I think everything caught up with me a bit.  So much happening but much of it soooo inadequate and all happening too late.  But - nothing I can do about that on a personal level.  I think as well it was lack of food - I didn't eat much yesterday as I was worried about not being able to get anything today so I'd saved it for son.  That doesn't help, plus I'm due on, plus was up at 5 again for another early morning shop run so I think it all caught up with me.  But - we have food in now and more coming tomorrow.  I've got a list of all the local places that are either delivering or will box things up for people to collect so I should be able to sort things out a bit more easily now.  I think part of the problem is that everyone is suddenly having to deal with a very big changes to routine and it is hard, you get your own little groove going and suddenly the wheels don't fit any more and you have to create a new path.  But I feel more settled now, just knowing there's enough in for him is good.  I'm very, very glad now I ordered in vitamins and herbal stuff before all this happened.  I've had a bath, I'm going to sort myself something to eat and watch a film - feet up and relax this afternoon.  Son is very happy upstairs writing his novel and was very excited that he received a text message from the government urging him to stay inside :)  Lol.

One thing I am struggling with is an overwhelming urge to contact everyone to check they're okay.  All the people I've not spoken to for years - my mum, my estranged sisters, nieces and nephews, old friends I haven't heard from in years, current friends I've not heard from in a long time.  I'm resisting - none of them have contacted me for years now and haven't reached out during this crisis and I know if I get back in touch I will only set myself up to get hurt again.  So I'm resisting but I am struggling with it.  It just sort of goes against my nature and that makes me feel uncomfortable xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 24, 2020, 12:14:05 PM
I do understand....your nature is loving!

But I also understand that you might add pain to the situation if it brings back those old feelings of non-reciprocity. Those friends would also have similar opportunities right now to be thinking about checking on YOU. And if they don't, then maybe "past friends" is a better term. Re-experiencing hurt you've already processed won't help.

I hope there's a few nice people where you live now, anyone you've got a number for, that you might call and say, "I'm just calling to hear a friendly voice. I don't have a lot of local contacts since I'm at home so much. How are all this going for you?". Then you could have a positive social conversation, however brief, and feel as though even though more isolated than many, you ARE still a human part of this human community you are in at the present. Someone you call might be so pleased to just be able to vent what they're dealing with in the moment. (Don't forget you don't need to give advice or fix it. Just a nice listen, with some "Wow, that is really tough" kinds of responses.)

I think just sharing moments, checking in, even without a lot of practicality to the conversation, is really valuable for people right now.

GLAD you're feeling better than yesterday and relaxing a bit now, Tupp. And your son is so cute. Whoopee! A text from the government!

He's adorable. And writing a novel...what a fantastic person.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 24, 2020, 01:36:39 PM
The stress finally broke me today. Bawled my eyes out.

It's over; moving on now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 24, 2020, 04:07:14 PM

 I'm so relieved you got food in, Tupp.  So scary, and difficult and heartbreaking with the triage information going out..... must keep ds safe.  I picture a different world than the one where a violent predator is saved over sweet lovely boys with disabilities.

Make sure you have a splash shield on, and ds too, when you go out.  You can make them out of those plastic page protectors taped to glasses.  Masks with many layers..... vids have lots of ideas.  Some as easy as taping paper towels together.   I have stuff OUT to make these things, just not put together yet.  I feel as though I'm stuck in mud.

On the internet, I saw an Asian man with a comforter bag over him and a baby in a chest carrier.  Honestly, the idea of making crazy protective gear, that brings a smile to someone's face, makes me feel better.   DD17 said she'll paint something funny on whatever splach guard I end up using and I'm cool with that.

::patting Amber's back::.  It goes in and out of focus, I know. Just giving in to the tears helps, IME. 

We have a 5 way chat with Ohio cousins going on.  One of cousin's dd's was assaulted by her exbf and cousin seeking a protective order.  Lots of terrifying things going on with everything else and honestly... I think this stress is breaking people who might have been holding it together otherwise. 



Lighter






Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 24, 2020, 04:37:34 PM
I'm so glad the dam broke, (((((((((((((((Amber)))))))))))))).

What a relief.

NO soldier, even an Amazon warrior woman, keeps it up 24/7.

Good for you for letting it out.

Cry on me any time.

Huge hug,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 24, 2020, 05:42:29 PM
Thanks guys.

John was here then. He knows what I went thru. Buck was here and has been holding me for days - even if it's just over the phone. It had to break, crest... move on. We're taking turns here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 25, 2020, 02:54:02 AM

 I'm so relieved you got food in, Tupp.  So scary, and difficult and heartbreaking with the triage information going out..... must keep ds safe.  I picture a different world than the one where a violent predator is saved over sweet lovely boys with disabilities.

Make sure you have a splash shield on, and ds too, when you go out.  You can make them out of those plastic page protectors taped to glasses.  Masks with many layers..... vids have lots of ideas.  Some as easy as taping paper towels together.   I have stuff OUT to make these things, just not put together yet.  I feel as though I'm stuck in mud.

On the internet, I saw an Asian man with a comforter bag over him and a baby in a chest carrier.  Honestly, the idea of making crazy protective gear, that brings a smile to someone's face, makes me feel better.   DD17 said she'll paint something funny on whatever splach guard I end up using and I'm cool with that.

::patting Amber's back::.  It goes in and out of focus, I know. Just giving in to the tears helps, IME. 

We have a 5 way chat with Ohio cousins going on.  One of cousin's dd's was assaulted by her exbf and cousin seeking a protective order.  Lots of terrifying things going on with everything else and honestly... I think this stress is breaking people who might have been holding it together otherwise. 



Lighter

Thanks, Lighter, do be careful, none of those home made masks will stop infection, they're great for lightening the situation a bit but they won't stop anyone getting the virus.  There was a good link on one of the other forums, I'll see if I can find it later and send it to you.

I hope your cousin gets the order through, how odd that you've been concerned about yours ending and now she needs to get one.  I do think sometimes we get a sense of what other people are feeling if we're close to them.  It's a very odd thing.  I hope that gets sorted out for her quickly.

The stress is going to get to people and fast.  Some will respond positively by trying to help and be supportive to others and some will get violent and aggressive.  I feel so angry that all the world leaders knew this was coming and they've all sat on their arses and done nothing.  So many lives could have been saved just by ending all non-essential travel for a while.  I am staying inside! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 25, 2020, 03:12:17 AM
A big cyber hug for you, Skep ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Skep))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) xx xx xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 25, 2020, 06:25:45 AM
I do understand....your nature is loving!

But I also understand that you might add pain to the situation if it brings back those old feelings of non-reciprocity. Those friends would also have similar opportunities right now to be thinking about checking on YOU. And if they don't, then maybe "past friends" is a better term. Re-experiencing hurt you've already processed won't help.

I hope there's a few nice people where you live now, anyone you've got a number for, that you might call and say, "I'm just calling to hear a friendly voice. I don't have a lot of local contacts since I'm at home so much. How are all this going for you?". Then you could have a positive social conversation, however brief, and feel as though even though more isolated than many, you ARE still a human part of this human community you are in at the present. Someone you call might be so pleased to just be able to vent what they're dealing with in the moment. (Don't forget you don't need to give advice or fix it. Just a nice listen, with some "Wow, that is really tough" kinds of responses.)

I think just sharing moments, checking in, even without a lot of practicality to the conversation, is really valuable for people right now.

GLAD you're feeling better than yesterday and relaxing a bit now, Tupp. And your son is so cute. Whoopee! A text from the government!

He's adorable. And writing a novel...what a fantastic person.

hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops, it's all okay now!  I wouldn't have reached out to them, I knew it would only bring more problems but I just had that urge to, it is very natural in me to check on other people but I've got to keep it for people who appreciate and reciprocate :)  And I have had people checking in on me which is lovely, and many groups have sprung up on Facebook to support each other and share info for older neighbours who aren't online so bizarrely I'm meeting more people by staying in!

And we have food!  And much of it as well, lovely lady delivered it this morning, we had a chat through the glass and she left everything on the step for me.  I've washed it all, dried it and we have enough now for two weeks, I reckon, although I'll top up with fresh from the farm shop in between.  I will not take an easy supply of food for granted again after this, I really didn't realise how much I was able to access so freely before.  Very, very fortunate.

Son is being a diamond, we did a workout together this morning and he's back working on his novel now, and a film script!  About Corona Virus zombies, obviously :) Currently things are good :) How is it going over there, are you all managing to get what's needed? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 25, 2020, 10:48:04 AM
Thanks, Tupp, I'm in good shape.
I've decided that shopping for fresh produce is still shopping, so I'm not doing that.
Haven't been to any kind of store in almost two weeks now. One more week, and then I can go play at M's house and vice versa!

I have ordered in everything I could possibly need to eat and will be fine. Frozen vegs and cans of fruit and soup and jars and shelf-stable packages (like soy milk cartons). I've made bread a couple times in the machine. Last night I took a loaf to M who was doing a PHD review online. Left it on his porch and he left me a big container of baked ziti. Yumm.

My fridge and freezer are full for the first time ever. Most of the time there are about 5 or 6 things on the shelves. So even after the parallel quarantine between M and me is over, I'll be continuing social distancing with friends by walking six feet apart and having them over on sunny days where we can sit and drink wine six feet apart on my back patio.

I read a truly horrifying account of enduring a ventilator in ProPublica that absolutely confirmed my lack of interest in hospitalization should I become infected. Or for any other reason with a little luck. So I think the absolute primary thing is embracing a Zoom and garden and six-feet-friends life until a vaccine is proven, developed and distributed. I think it will be different but probably not as hard as it will be for many. M loves running around town doing errands so it will be more difficult for him. I hope I can influence him to stay the course. I think I can...he's been extremely disciplined about the precautions so far.

I already tend to stay home a lot, and think until the first surge peaks AND subsides to zero in my town, that's the best course. Then only can only hope it's not back again in winter...I don't think a vaccine will be out until the following.

I've been taking walks again with Pooch and enjoying them a lot. So ironically, my health may improve because the world has closed in.

I'm very grateful M is in my life, as it would feel much more isolating without him. I'll still complain but am lucky to have his commitment and partnership. He thinks we dodged the economic bullet by not buying a house a while back, and with everything collapsing I see he's right.

On a Zoom chat yesterday with a woman who volunteers for an organization I'm interested in, she explained how she and her bf got married but kept their own houses. Idea....hmmmm! Perhaps that could be our answer.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 25, 2020, 11:05:40 AM
Lord, YES to keeping a his and her residence, Hops.

Especially when one has really BIG energy and the other more subtle.

So glad you're back in victuals, Tupp. 

So far I've made a big pot of ham and bean soup.... so comforting.... a large pot of spaghetti sauce with pork (Italians would call it pork salsa) and we make a daily pot of rice in the rice cooker. 

I haven't had Tupp's surge of lightness and energy.... I thought I would, but I distinctly do not.  Yesterday was better... just cleaning a bathroom and the kitchen left me feeling much better this morning, though I woke with a stitch in the back of my neck. 

I see the vet tech student posted her services to the neighborhood board.  I'm trying to figure out how to suit her up and me, while we work on baby girl pug together.  DIY taped masks and splash guards won't be 100% but they'll get me through 5 minutes of very close contact, or so I figure.  I know I won't be breathing someone else's air back and forth with nothing between us.   Gloves will go in a bag outside. 

CB:  The pie baking and mindful enjoyment of food was nice to read.  It turned my attention to being more intentional around it too.   

Lighter



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 26, 2020, 12:28:37 AM
Why are people dying from cardiac arrest?  Why is the virus killing people this way?

A 38yo man died in NY today, along with 2 others, all from cardiac arrest

38yo.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 26, 2020, 07:32:53 AM
Thanks, Tupp, I'm in good shape.
I've decided that shopping for fresh produce is still shopping, so I'm not doing that.
Haven't been to any kind of store in almost two weeks now. One more week, and then I can go play at M's house and vice versa!

I have ordered in everything I could possibly need to eat and will be fine. Frozen vegs and cans of fruit and soup and jars and shelf-stable packages (like soy milk cartons). I've made bread a couple times in the machine. Last night I took a loaf to M who was doing a PHD review online. Left it on his porch and he left me a big container of baked ziti. Yumm.

My fridge and freezer are full for the first time ever. Most of the time there are about 5 or 6 things on the shelves. So even after the parallel quarantine between M and me is over, I'll be continuing social distancing with friends by walking six feet apart and having them over on sunny days where we can sit and drink wine six feet apart on my back patio.

I read a truly horrifying account of enduring a ventilator in ProPublica that absolutely confirmed my lack of interest in hospitalization should I become infected. Or for any other reason with a little luck. So I think the absolute primary thing is embracing a Zoom and garden and six-feet-friends life until a vaccine is proven, developed and distributed. I think it will be different but probably not as hard as it will be for many. M loves running around town doing errands so it will be more difficult for him. I hope I can influence him to stay the course. I think I can...he's been extremely disciplined about the precautions so far.

I already tend to stay home a lot, and think until the first surge peaks AND subsides to zero in my town, that's the best course. Then only can only hope it's not back again in winter...I don't think a vaccine will be out until the following.

I've been taking walks again with Pooch and enjoying them a lot. So ironically, my health may improve because the world has closed in.

I'm very grateful M is in my life, as it would feel much more isolating without him. I'll still complain but am lucky to have his commitment and partnership. He thinks we dodged the economic bullet by not buying a house a while back, and with everything collapsing I see he's right.

On a Zoom chat yesterday with a woman who volunteers for an organization I'm interested in, she explained how she and her bf got married but kept their own houses. Idea....hmmmm! Perhaps that could be our answer.

hugs
Hops

That's all good to read, Hops (not the ventilator bit but I do get what you mean.  Choosing what you will and won't do in your final days is important, I think - I think we should all have the right not to put ourselves through something horrible.  But I am obviously always hoping that it won't come to that for you).  And yes, own houses.  Helena Bonham Carter and Tim Burton quite famously had houses next door to one another with connecting doors.  I think it sounds very sensible.

I think my health is improving, too.  Stress levels much reduced.  Lots more down time than usual.  Eating much better food because I'm not grabbing crap as I rush from one thing to the next and I've got time to plan and make nice meals, instead of having to do things because they're quick or I'm too tired to cook.  Time to do yoga, and dance, and garden, and do housework.  Son and I are doing a workout video each day to keep him active.  Lots of vitamins and supplements at the moment in an attempt to keep the immune system up.  Far less caffeine, as I'm not having to keep myself going through the day (just woke up from a nap now!).  Ironic that the risk of ill health might make us a bit healthier :)  Can they still keep your monitor machine working without you going anywhere or did you need to go to hospital to get it checked or anything? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 26, 2020, 08:14:40 AM
Apparently one week's isolation is enough for people to start showing psychological stress symptoms.

Those of us at the farm, are managing OK. Things to do besides wear on each other helps. HUMOR seems to be useful as well. And for whatever reason, I am the person people reach out to, when they start losing it.

So, I've stepped in and sorted out some panic at the shop; I was glad to see that for once my brother & I were on the same page there. And he was engaging too. Not so much at home, according to my mother... who bent my ear for a couple hours while I was working up to my own breaking point. SIGH... (same old same old there)

Friend Debbie is starting to bounce off the walls - I think she depends on work for an exchange of problems to deal with and work problems are ones she's not THAT emotionally engaged with. She seems easy to make giggle though... so not around the bend yet.

Both girls (mine) are claiming they are such empaths that they are at the mercy of all the awful things happening in the world. Already had listened & pondered Hol's version of that before Amy called. I had to explain that all the awful things have ALWAYS gone on in the world - and they weren't about to stop now - and as an empath, she has to remember to take care of herself FIRST or she can't take care of others. That she has a DUTY to care for herself. I made her laugh with my usual sick, twisted dark humor.

Methinks that particular thread of caring, lends itself to a lot of catastrophizing. And then, when the situation is so dire, irreversible (permanent), and awful in one's imagination.... we are in the thrall of it. Until another things comes along to shift us out of that idee fixe. Or so today's theory is runnning anyway. In my head. LOL.

Buck's oldest - she's the same age as Hol - is in hospital in London. Tested positive and has lupus. He is hanging in there, having promised her he won't do anything rash to try to "save" her - ie, get her back to the US. At this point, she's better off getting the care she can THERE than traveling. IMO. He went out to his shop and beat on some steel to straighten it instead.

That is the next phase to get into here at the farm - physical labor, as the weather starts to warm up and looks like it will stay that way more often now. I have taken it upon myself to keep the kitchen clean & functional & sanitized. Bathroom is ready for plumbers... and I have a little more work on the walls to accomplish... then I can move back into that room and use it. Carpenters need to do a little more trim on the wall, from the other side of the bath.

Then I'll get started on the bedroom itself.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 26, 2020, 11:28:54 AM
Here's clear, specific info on receiving deliveries and/or grocery shopping.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/26/dont-panic-about-shopping-getting-delivery-or-accepting-packages/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/26/dont-panic-about-shopping-getting-delivery-or-accepting-packages/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 26, 2020, 11:33:18 AM
Lord, YES to keeping a his and her residence, Hops.

Especially when one has really BIG energy and the other more subtle.

So glad you're back in victuals, Tupp. 

So far I've made a big pot of ham and bean soup.... so comforting.... a large pot of spaghetti sauce with pork (Italians would call it pork salsa) and we make a daily pot of rice in the rice cooker. 

I haven't had Tupp's surge of lightness and energy.... I thought I would, but I distinctly do not.  Yesterday was better... just cleaning a bathroom and the kitchen left me feeling much better this morning, though I woke with a stitch in the back of my neck. 

I see the vet tech student posted her services to the neighborhood board.  I'm trying to figure out how to suit her up and me, while we work on baby girl pug together.  DIY taped masks and splash guards won't be 100% but they'll get me through 5 minutes of very close contact, or so I figure.  I know I won't be breathing someone else's air back and forth with nothing between us.   Gloves will go in a bag outside. 

CB:  The pie baking and mindful enjoyment of food was nice to read.  It turned my attention to being more intentional around it too.   

Lighter

Lighter, to be safe you need to hand pug over at the door of the vet and then go and wait in the car.  Paper masks don't offer protection because they don't filter the particles out.  You need specialist medical masks for that, even standard surgery masks don't do the job.  I can send you some links for info if you want.  Safer to hand pug over, let them do what they need to do (they will follow impeccable standards at a vet, I would imagine) and then they can meet you at the door again to hand her back.  No close contact is safe, however brief.  Even fully masked, gowned, hygiene savvy medical staff are falling ill here, one nurse has died.  It's not breathing someone else's air that's the problem, it's the particles in the air that matter and you need specialist masks to stop those getting through.  Doesn't matter how brief the contact is.  Honestly, you have three kids at home all depending on you, please don't think paper masks will protect you, even for a short time.  Keep safe and well, we need cooking and moss updates regularly :) xx xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 26, 2020, 11:40:35 AM
Thanks for asking, Tupp. I have several "phone-in" appointments where I put the thingie on my chest and it electronically sends in a data summary to the hospital. I won't have an in-person followup for months, so hopefully the surge will have crested by then. Not looking forward to going in, but if I stay healthy, all will be well.

Amber, I agree with you about catastrophizing, and feeding fear, and focusing on the scariest anecdotes. I have to skip over that tone sometimes because it feeds my own fear furnace. That said, I also have a craving for information from reliable sources (not social media or rumor or someone-who-knows-someone, kind of thing).

Lighter, the risk is quite high for younger people too, and if you read about people in the ICU and on ventilators, cardiac arrest doesn't seem a strange outcome. If you want to contemplate it (I almost wish I had NOT read this but have a drive for evidence):
https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes--terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients (https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes--terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients)

My advice to anybody about that article is to carefully consider your mental well being.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 26, 2020, 03:21:44 PM
That feeling of disbelief when you realize your kids aren't going to make the cut. It will cut your legs out from under you--I know it well. 

My kids have each taken a turn melting down, but then work their way through it. I hate it that they are so far away.

I am checking the food deliveries every day, like Hops suggested. I just order what is available, a small amount and accept their substitutions. If there's nothing there I need, I check again the next day. Its harrowing, but I have some back stock. It's got to be worse if you have only one days worth. Call you call a relief agency or charity? Check restaurants--the ones around here sold off their coolers full of food at a cheap rate. One place made a box with a whole chicken, rice, eggs, milk some vegetables and a roll of toilet paper (I think that might be an attempt at humor, or maybe just total graciousness) I'll bet there are some in your area.

The problem is it takes so much time to do this kind of searching. I figured out that if I had bread, milk and eggs as a basis I would be okay. Rolled oats is in that category too. I so wish I could help. We are in the same place in the US except there's no one in charge at the helm so in a while our country is going to be very sick.

CB

It's horrible, isn't it CB - they're so undervalued and we're often too wiped out from all the running about to launch that major campaign that's needed to change that perception!  Son is oblivious to that part of it; he does understand that it can make you ill enough to die and he's very happy indoors so we're just going nowhere.  I'm happy indoors as well so it's working well for us at the minute.

The food crisis is averted now, the panic buying just wiped all the supermarkets out and they were trying to catch up for days afterwards.  There are still lots of problems with deliveries but they've put us on a priority list now and I will look to put the order in sooner than I usually would so that will be fine.  Local people have organised food collections for people who can't get out so I can even just get a pint of milk picked up for me now which is great.  But yes, it's the time of trying to organise, arrange, collect it (or sit on the phone or computer for hours trying to get it to go through) and that extra stress of knowing you can't pop out for something if you forget to order it.  Just was all a bit too much all at once.  But all grand now :)  I hope you and yours are managing okay, it's such an unprecedented situation, isn't it? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 27, 2020, 12:01:56 AM
My niece arrived in Florida today.  They went to her favorite grocery store to find it fully stocked, clean and very much a comfort after the island's tiny markets.

That was a good thing to hear about Florida right now.

Lighter





 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 27, 2020, 01:08:27 AM
I am just so sorry that so many people are scared. I don't know what to say.

They might get sick; but that sounds uncaring. Which wouldn't be true. And they might have worse than just the flu-sick that make one feel horrible. Something that requires hospitalization.

I am sorry for the people who are sick. I can't make the system any better.  No one listens to me. Politics is NOT the answer. But again - no one listens to me.

This is hard. It's hitting home for us. Six degrees of separation. Hol's close friends; Buck''s D. And Amy - an EMS on a medical transport. Mike's D is an ICU/trauma/ER nurse.

Rehydration is more than water; Add honey, potassium, and calcium. However you can.  Hydration is necessary with a fever.  So is cooling body temp. The season is such right now that a walk outside can counter that.

Good stuff in; bad stuff out, Think outside the box.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 27, 2020, 11:31:47 AM
So hope everyone will read this article to the end. It isn't long.

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/24/820601571/all-of-this-panic-could-have-been-prevented-author-max-brooks-on-covid-19 (https://www.npr.org/2020/03/24/820601571/all-of-this-panic-could-have-been-prevented-author-max-brooks-on-covid-19)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 27, 2020, 01:02:06 PM
So hope everyone will read this article to the end. It isn't long.

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/24/820601571/all-of-this-panic-could-have-been-prevented-author-max-brooks-on-covid-19 (https://www.npr.org/2020/03/24/820601571/all-of-this-panic-could-have-been-prevented-author-max-brooks-on-covid-19)

hugs
Hops

Yes, all the way through, Hops, same situation here.  The World Health Organisation warned this was going to go global in January, if memory serves, and I believe the first case was documented last November?  It would have been possible here to stop any non-essential travel in and out of the country and to quarantine/test everyone coming in for as long as this goes on.  Inconvenient for some, yes, and out of pocket for some as well, but a relatively small number of people compared to the millions being affected now.  They could have, and should have had plans A, B and C in place so they could respond quickly to an outbreak, but instead people have had to rely on Facebook to figure out what to do and then just go for it as best they can - which of course, for some, means buying everything in sight, and for others means carrying on doing what they do, even if they don't need to.  Our government have literally made it up as they went along and as each announcement creates and outcry, they go off and change the policy again.  They sought to protect corporate interests, essentially and on top of that, we have a hideously untrustworthy media and horribly untrustworthy politicians.  So loads of people ignored advice to stay indoors as much as possible because they thought it was just media hype (as I did when I first heard it all because it's the kind of trumped up nonsense they do).  It has shown every flaw in our global function, I think, and I am really hoping this brings about real, positive change now that people have seen how we really all need to work with each other instead of against each other all the time.  The biggest problem we have, I feel, is the number of people in positions of extraordinary power who are there because of the families they were born in to and the schools they attended, rather than because they have the necessary skills and aptitude for these incredibly important jobs xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 29, 2020, 08:56:33 AM
Well I am feeling like I've just been dropped from a great height.  I've been enjoying being at home - we've got food, we've got plenty to do and most importantly, I feel safe.  We can sit this out.  I'm limiting my news and social media to just enough to keep informed, without getting overloaded and I'm trying not to focus on the negative 'what ifs' and just to assume that we'll come out of this well rested, with lots of jobs at home done and a new appreciation for having the freedom to go out when we want to and easily buy food.

But a friend just rang and took me aback with her approach.  Despite the fact that she works at a day centre for old people and they are now making up meals on wheels deliveries for them all as they can't go out, she is of the opinion that old people should die.  She thinks the virus is a load of fuss about nothing, people die all the time from flu, cancer etc (which is absolutely true, they do) and she isn't adhering to the lock down because she doesn't see why she should.  I was a bit blown away and I'm looking back on the conversation now but, from what I can see, I didn't get angry or upset on the phone, I was saying to her that she should be very careful because it is very bad, they don't have enough beds or equipment and that they would never have locked down the country if it were for no good reason.  She got quite angry with me and I'm not sure why.  I don't claim to be an expert on this but it has been announced here today that they think 20,000 dying in the next few weeks is the best we can hope for.  They've built a new 4,000 bed hospital and two new morgues, and even with that doctors don't think they'll cope.  I have medically minded friends who've both said this is going to be horrific and one friend's daughter, a paramedic, is self isolating as she has symptoms.  She said that people die anyway, which of course they do, but I think the problem with this is that it is/will happen in such a short space of time and it overloads the health service.  Currently the death rate in ICU here is 50/50.  People are, apparently, having to be left to die alone because it's so infectious, so they can't have family or friends in there with them.  Family and friends then have to self isolate in their grief, in case they picked it up as well, and can't arrange funerals with more than five people attending, I think is the current situation.

I pointed out that my son won't make the grade for a ventilator if they don't have enough to go round and that we're quite likely to be completely inside for three months now, if not longer.  Not even going out for walks.  I am aware that people die every day, of course they do, but I don't imagine that anyone wants to die on their own, in pain, knowing that their own family won't be able to gather together to bury them.  Surely no-one thinks that's alright?  Surely most people would avoid that, if they could?  And most people aren't being asked not to go out at all, they're just being asked to only go out if it's essential.  It's not too much of a sacrifice, surely?

The thing that really shook me up is that she got angry with me and then hung up the phone.  I don't understand why she did that.  It's shaken me up and left me feeling quite wobbly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 29, 2020, 09:11:29 AM
Lighter, I think you might value both of these (especially the video).

Article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/03/28/masks-all-coronavirus/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/03/28/masks-all-coronavirus/)

Video: https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-diy-tips.html (https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-diy-tips.html)

(For me, it's just easier to not go out. But I know many folks have to.)

Luck,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 29, 2020, 09:22:02 AM
((((((((Tupp))))))))) --

I so totally understand why this left you bruised. I completely, entirely agree with you and am very sad about the moral divide this is revealing in so many places.

Perhaps in working with those who are very old and fragile for whom the only release is getting dying over with, your friend has become callous to them. Certainly sounds that way. I don't agree, of course. Though I'm just as frustrated that we get no help with dying when we're very old and miserable, I would never want to be cared for by a worker who considers me expendable rubbish.

All that said, I think your pain got hooked when you tried to reason with her, based on empathy and a moral code she doesn't share. I believe she is wrong and expressed cruel thoughts, and didn't see how parenting your son would make you even more sensitive to the disadvantages of the helpless.

I can't agree with you more, except that I'd like to say you are entirely within your rights of self protection and self care...to simply NOT ENGAGE, when you hear someone (even a friend) starting down an ethical path that shocks and causes pain. Whether on the phone or online or in a message.

You do not have to take the bait. Her attitude does hook loving people, vulnerable people (while you're healthy, you are the parent of someone at risk, which makes you vulnerable)...in our hearts and in our fears. So if someone's clueless enough to talk to you about "useless humans"...you know that's not a conversation to extend.

It was the trying to persuade her that caused the pain, I think. And my guess is her anger was triggered by a moment of shame, perhaps. Either way, I'd lose interest in exploring her thinking...because it's toxic to YOU.

Take care of yourself, and don't take those attitudes IN. It must have felt personal, but it probably wasn't meant that way. She was just speaking out of normal self-absorption, and from her personal experience of being around the very old, bed-bound, helpless old. It's a shame but I think many of those workers do become callous, perhaps to emotionally survive.

I'm really sorry her tale and her opinions appeared in your ear!

Please dust out your ears, let that conversation go away as quickly as you can. Okay, what's it going to be?

Tea and telly? More reminders of nature and the beautiful empathy and community behavior and humane attitudes that are ALSO appearing everywhere? Don't forget them. You are part of THEM. Keep calm and carry on.

Big hugs,
Hops

PS -- She may be a friend, but she's also a prat. Prats often get angry when we say something that gives them an unexpected look at an ugly side of themselves. That's on her too....not your problem. It's good to acknowledge the hurt you felt when she reacted that way. See it and then...intentionally release it, so it doesn't spoil your day.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 29, 2020, 09:42:47 AM
Lol, thanks, Hops, I didn't know 'prat' is a word in America, too :)  Lol.  Yes, you are right, I've talked it through with another friend on the phone, good friend, it's not even so much that she sees the situation differently to me, it was more that she got angry with me about it and hung up.  That was the bit that shook and baffled me.  But yes, my ears are dusted out, I am levelling myself out again.  It just baffled me a bit.  It is weird how people don't leave jobs once they get bitter about them.  I can remember working with teachers who hated kids - they were just so sick of the system and so many years of not being appreciated, I think, but I didn't understand why they kept doing the job.  I gave up waitressing years ago because I'd got to the point where I didn't care whether people enjoyed their dinner or not.  I think that's always the time to leave.

But yes.  I am comfort eating pasta.  I've got plenty to get on with today, and I will put the music on loud, check in on nice people, enjoy the sun on my face through the window (it's bloody cold out but the sun is lovely if you're inside).  And yes, do not engage is the rule.  I think I didn't even realise I was engaging until she hung up.  I honestly thought she just hadn't been keeping up with what's going on and was working in the dark.  But I will keep future conversations to people I know won't get angry with me for expressing a desire to, at the very least, let people die comfortable with someone they love by their side. Sheesh.

I'm adding 'Americans say prat' to my list of things I didn't know.  I have also discovered that there is another town the same name as the one my sister lives in, a couple of hundred miles from where she is (I didn't know that before).  And that my nan on my dad's side was one of the first people to fly from England to America when they first started doing transatlantic flights!  There is apparently a newspaper clipping somewhere that my brother is trying to find for me.  I should start a list of new information I discover whilst on lockdown.  Lol.  Thank you for being there.  I appreciate the support very much xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 29, 2020, 09:54:26 AM
I shall appoint myself your old Yank sister or more likely Yank auntie!

Your description of the sudden shock of her getting angry made a lot of sense, too. If you have one small toe on the spectrum, despite your deep loving values, you might be approaching such a conversation with REASON, believing that EXPLAINING moral things works on folks like her. But consider Trump/Johnson voters. (No, don't! It's depressing!)

I absolutely loved what you said about serving tables. "I didn't care whether they enjoyed their dinner or not." It's lovely and wonderful that once you realized that, you decided it wasn't appropriate to continue the job. However, people less connected to logic than you are might have been content to just fake it, with their social signals manufactured and insincere. (And their diners feeling vaguely less content because the server's core indifference still seeped through.)

One of the most wonderful things about you, Tupp, imo, is that you never fake anything. You are utterly genuine and honest and forthright all the way through. That's a characteristic of those with wee spectrum traits that is so often under-appreciated.

I see you! And I think you're fantastic.

Hugs and happier day,
Hops

PS -- Yanks don't say "prat." I'm just an Anglophile; lived in London for six months. I was channeling my inner Brit. (Not brat.) LOL.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 29, 2020, 11:58:22 AM
I shall appoint myself your old Yank sister or more likely Yank auntie!

Your description of the sudden shock of her getting angry made a lot of sense, too. If you have one small toe on the spectrum, despite your deep loving values, you might be approaching such a conversation with REASON, believing that EXPLAINING moral things works on folks like her. But consider Trump/Johnson voters. (No, don't! It's depressing!)

I absolutely loved what you said about serving tables. "I didn't care whether they enjoyed their dinner or not." It's lovely and wonderful that once you realized that, you decided it wasn't appropriate to continue the job. However, people less connected to logic than you are might have been content to just fake it, with their social signals manufactured and insincere. (And their diners feeling vaguely less content because the server's core indifference still seeped through.)

One of the most wonderful things about you, Tupp, imo, is that you never fake anything. You are utterly genuine and honest and forthright all the way through. That's a characteristic of those with wee spectrum traits that is so often under-appreciated.

I see you! And I think you're fantastic.

Hugs and happier day,
Hops

PS -- Yanks don't say "prat." I'm just an Anglophile; lived in London for six months. I was channeling my inner Brit. (Not brat.) LOL.

Ah, I can't have that on my list of new knowledge now then, curses!  Lol.

Thank you for your kind words.  It means a lot.  I am still feeling very fluffy tummied, which I hate.  It will pass, but I find it hard to get on with other things until it does.  I will keep at it, though.  I realised what I really didn't like is that she's not phoned up with words of support or just to have a friendly, breezy chat.  It was her line of conversation, not mine, that took us down that path, and to say those things and then hang up was just nasty.  It's kind of popped my 'surviving indoors' bubble so I need to go off now to fix it.

In other news - we are having fish and chips for tea, home made.  I've got some nice music on.  I will do some yoga later, but I have to wait for my dinner to go down first :)  Thank you again xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 29, 2020, 12:21:32 PM
I have made some cakes for pudding :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 29, 2020, 02:15:00 PM
I want some!
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 29, 2020, 02:16:18 PM
Hi, Tupp:

What are you going to do to those cakes that turns them into pudding?


And.... I'm sorry your "friend" was reactive during your phone call with her. Crisis brings out the best and worst in humans, IME.  Maybe she'd be following Jack if she was in the Lord of the Flies book, instead of Ralph.  Sometimes people surprise us.  I'm trying really hard not to judge... just notice and not get sucked into those conversations, whick leave me whobbly and upset too.  I'm trying to see everything and just let it go by.  I guess we have a chance to practice with the tools T gave us.

I've been shaken pretty badly by similar conversations.  Like Hops said... we should avoid those conversations.  I guess we have a chance to use some of our EMDR tools to get rid of the flutters and tension in our bodies.

Hops:

My sister sent gloves and masks...one with a splash guard.  Thanks for the videos... I am interested and tried to make a splash guard, but the material was too thin.
 I put it all down, and just haven't left the house yet. 

I want to plant a garden and have shallots sprouting.... will plant today, or tomorrow.  Did you know shallots produce 6 sets for every set you plant?  I did not know that, but look forward to that harvest.

Now, I need to make a list of other things I want to plant and check with neighbors... trade seeds and seedlings. One neighbor offered to plant things for me in his little sunny patch.  I really like him.  I'd like to avoid having to spend 4 bucks per tomato plant this year.

I'm finishing up the ham bean soup.  Added more beans and made rice to go with  it.  Honoring every drop of food brings me comfort.  The same with the pasta sauce.
 Today I'm making an Italian dish called pasta with potatoes.  Italians pronounce it  (pasta with po tahtuh) is a good way to change things up and finish it.  I don't want to waste or freeze anything.  You make a thin broth from the tomatoes, onions, garlic... I added jalapenos for some heat cause I like it.  After the potato chunks cook to soft, you cook only the pasta you'll eat at that meal in the broth, bc it gets soggy as leftovers.  Squish the potatoes into the broth to thicken it as you like in your bowl. The Italians add hot oil made from homegrown little purple peppers SO HOT, but amazingly delicious.

Lighter
















Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 29, 2020, 02:35:06 PM
I want some!

Lol, they're not great, Hops, I'm not a good baker, pretty dry but it was something sweet to have after dinner.  I did chocolate topping on them and son said they looked like piles of poo in paper cases :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 29, 2020, 02:38:55 PM
Hops:

Neighbors have started the bear hunt!  I put 2 items in the windows.  If this takes off I'll hide different things in the yard, like a scavenger hunt and move them around daily.

Thanks for that idea. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 29, 2020, 02:43:24 PM
Hi, Tupp:

What are you going to do to those cakes that turns them into pudding?


And.... I'm sorry your "friend" was reactive during your phone call with her. Crisis brings out the best and worst in humans, IME.  Maybe she'd be following Jack if she was in the Lord of the Flies book, instead of Ralph.  Sometimes people surprise us.  I'm trying really hard not to judge... just notice and not get sucked into those conversations, whick leave me whobbly and upset too.  I'm trying to see everything and just let it go by.  I guess we have a chance to practice with the tools T gave us.

I've been shaken pretty badly by similar conversations.  Like Hops said... we should avoid those conversations.  I guess we have a chance to use some of our EMDR tools to get rid of the flutters and tension in our bodies.

Hops:

My sister sent gloves and masks...one with a splash guard.  Thanks for the videos... I am interested and tried to make a splash guard, but the material was too thin.
 I put it all down, and just haven't left the house yet. 

I want to plant a garden and have shallots sprouting.... will plant today, or tomorrow.  Did you know shallots produce 6 sets for every set you plant?  I did not know that, but look forward to that harvest.

Now, I need to make a list of other things I want to plant and check with neighbors... trade seeds and seedlings. One neighbor offered to plant things for me in his little sunny patch.  I really like him.  I'd like to avoid having to spend 4 bucks per tomato plant this year.

I'm finishing up the ham bean soup.  Added more beans and made rice to go with  it.  Honoring every drop of food brings me comfort.  The same with the pasta sauce.
 Today I'm making an Italian dish called pasta with potatoes.  Italians pronounce it  (pasta with po tahtuh) is a good way to change things up and finish it.  I don't want to waste or freeze anything.  You make a thin broth from the tomatoes, onions, garlic... I added jalapenos for some heat cause I like it.  After the potato chunks cook to soft, you cook only the pasta you'll eat at that meal in the broth, bc it gets soggy as leftovers.  Squish the potatoes into the broth to thicken it as you like in your bowl. The Italians add hot oil made from homegrown little purple peppers SO HOT, but amazingly delicious.

Lighter

The food sounds yummy, Lighter, and I love the idea of trading seeds with people.  There are definitely habits I'm acquiring at the minute that I want to keep up once this is over.  Especially the idea of doing one online shop, once a week, and then only eating that.  I've lost weight, I can feel my trousers are a bit looser, and I am really appreciating what we have in now and stretching it out into different meals.  Eating more fruit and veg as well.  The cakes are just cakes; it's just called pudding because it's what you have after your meal but they're just normal cupcakes (albeit dry ones that look like poo stacks).  Lol.

Yes, the phone call. It had really bothered me all afternoon.  I've tried to work through it, work past it, ignore it, but it was still really troubling me and I couldn't work out what it was.  Other people have said thoughtless things, many people here don't think it matters if old people die from it, or disabled people.  It's unpleasant, but I've got thick skinned and I can usually brush past it quickly.  This really got under my skin and I suddenly realised, it's because I feel like I'm being punished for doing the right thing - speaking up for those who need defending and reading factually based information about the current situation so I can keep my son as safe and well as possible.  Putting the phone down or not speaking is an old trick of my mother's - I will not listen to your point of view, I will not validate what you say, you are not towing the line with my viewpoint so I shall reject you very firmly and completely.  It triggered something very deep, and as soon as I realised that, it went.  Feel fine now, and looking forward to some online tai chi!  Because interestingly my left shoulder is hurting - it's one of the problem areas we worked on in EMDR and it's really sore now.  Going to work to loosen it up.

Enjoy the planting :) xx xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 29, 2020, 03:34:08 PM
HI Lighter,
I first heard the idea on my local neighborhood's Nextdoor.com site.

If you're not familiar with it, it's a great way to broadcast a message/request/whatever to either your nearby neighborhood only, or to the whole city. Takes one click to set it to wherever you want it to go. And there's lots of supportive coronavirus stuff. (Loads of misinformation too, par for the course.)

I sent a little summary of the Bear Hunt idea (crediting the local mother who first asked for bears) to the whole city.

I just kept thinking about how easy it is to bring young children happiness and distract them, and what a relief it might be for exhausted parents to take them for a walk where the parents just need to encourage "Hunt for the bears!" instead of having to keep up a running commentary. And then how the little ones would get home all tired out, which might give the parents a break (hopefully).

Enjoy!

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 29, 2020, 08:38:51 PM
And thank god for the Irish:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3D8BA9eTXwGIk&source=gmail&ust=1585614735607000&usg=AFQjCNFl3jEzGegb-u5erPGpsgQ0od7BHg (https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3D8BA9eTXwGIk&source=gmail&ust=1585614735607000&usg=AFQjCNFl3jEzGegb-u5erPGpsgQ0od7BHg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 31, 2020, 06:57:09 AM
And thank god for the Irish:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3D8BA9eTXwGIk&source=gmail&ust=1585614735607000&usg=AFQjCNFl3jEzGegb-u5erPGpsgQ0od7BHg (https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3D8BA9eTXwGIk&source=gmail&ust=1585614735607000&usg=AFQjCNFl3jEzGegb-u5erPGpsgQ0od7BHg)

Lol, he's hilarious, there are some really funny videos being posted at the moment, they make the day easier to get through :)

Son and I went on two virtual rides at Universal Studios this morning which was really good fun.  I'm thinking we can do virtual plans of places we want to visit whilst locked down and make good use of the time.

My sense of time has gone completely; I'd done various jobs this morning that usually take me until lunchtime to get done but it was only 8.30am :)  Just shows how much time is taken up with the endless faff of getting out of the house and catching all those buses.

I thought we'd had a parcel stolen from our front door step and was feeling a little down as it meant I'd have to re-order everything and it was quite expensive (about £80 of vitamin supplements, son's and mine usual supply).  But it has transpired that they were wrongly delivered to another house on the same road so I am hoping someone can fetch them for me.  Felt much happier about that.

My step-brother has called to tell me my mum has broken her back and there is no hospital bed for her.  He has learning disabilities so does get muddled with things and I am hoping it isn't as severe as he is saying, but I can't get hold of my sister which is unusual and makes me wonder if there has been a crisis and she's over there trying to sort it out.  I just wish my mum hadn't been so stupid and stubborn all these years and had just made a little effort to get some help and sort herself out a bit.  I know it's pointless to wish for and I know with her condition (assuming it's NPD) that she's not able to see there's something wrong and ask for help but she really could have had a much happier and more comfortable life than the one she's been having for the last fifteen years or so.  Sad and unnecessary.

It's sunny but cold.  I am keeping away from news now - I've taken all the precautions I am able to, we're being sensible and there's nothing more I can do so I don't want to know too much more now.  There's another website I use where someone is posting relevant bulletins each day so I can scan through that for a factual update and avoid all the individual stories and pictures of kids who no longer have a mum and medical staff living in camper vans so that they don't infect their children.  Facebook equally so - I'm helping a friend with a group for people who are struggling with their disabled kids being off school so I'm checking that once an hour in case anyone needs anything but other than that no scrolling.  Mind must be kept focused!

I've got very delicious baked potato with a huge salad for lunch, my absolute favourite.  Food has become the main focus of my day now!  Will make some more cookies later.

The cute ginger cat visited the back garden this morning and when I went out there he literally jumped into my arms.  He is so sweet and usually has all passersby fussing over him so I think he's missing the attention with so few people about.  There are loads of cats visiting the garden; I think the lack of noise is making them all bolder.  I managed to get an online order in for cat food with the local shop so that should be arriving today.  Food wise we're good and well stocked up now and the supermarkets seem to be getting back to normal for the time being.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 31, 2020, 11:12:12 AM
Absolutely nothing wrong with my mum, my sister spoke to her this morning and she's not got even an ache, I really wish I just didn't care at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 31, 2020, 12:36:02 PM
I get it, ((((Tupp)))).

News of my D's troubles (even outdated) sends me into
pain for days. So I stay away from her online crumbs.
Now and then I fall into the hole of pondering her online
tidbits and it does her no good, nor me.

hugs and empathy,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 31, 2020, 01:22:06 PM
I get it, ((((Tupp)))).

News of my D's troubles (even outdated) sends me into
pain for days. So I stay away from her online crumbs.
Now and then I fall into the hole of pondering her online
tidbits and it does her no good, nor me.

hugs and empathy,
Hops

Thanks, Hops.  I've always wanted not to become hard nosed and uncaring - it isn't me (it's very much my mum and some other people I know) and I've always resisted trying not to be myself.  But I think I do need to.  It feels like being punished for caring.  My step brother doesn't tell me to be unkind, but because he has learning disabilities when I've said to him before I don't want to talk about my mum he doesn't really understand and talks anyway.  I call him because I care for him, and he does for me.  He left me a message the other night, had called to see how son and I were and as he rings off he says "Love you".  No-one else ever says that to me, or ever has.  No-one else in the family bothers with him, other than his dad ringing him every now and then, so I don't want to not call him.  He can't read very well so texting isn't really a useful alternative.  But I Know I can't guarantee he won't mention them if we chat so I'm just going to have to not let my head go anywhere with anything I hear.  If she dies on her own, in pain, then that's just how it will have to be.  And for me to write that just feels so wrong, on every single level.  There's just no other way around it.  My sister texted her yesterday saying are you okay, have you got enough food in, do you need anything.  And my mum replied, yes, fine.  There are so many older people now on lockdown, can't go anywhere, having to wait for people to deliver food, many of them don't have internet so they can't even connect that way.  How much would they appreciate two loving daughters who would happily phone every day, visit through the glass and so on?  It's just a madness I can't get my head around.  So I'm done with it all.  Heavy heart and all that.  Thank you for understanding :)  I did some yoga.  Dinner's cooking, I've made more cupcakes and I am heading for the bath after dinner xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 31, 2020, 01:31:26 PM
Tupp:

You're such a nice person.  I'm glad your mum turned out to be OK.  It's unsettling, these upsetting what-if scenarios.... when they pop up.  Crisis and unknowns play whack-a-mole with our minds, IME.  Racing around like mice in the maze. I wish you didn't care at all too.

Food's been a huge focus for me, also.  I'm not even fighting it.

I'm amazed at all you're getting done.  Glad you're in the garden with the kitties.   

Lighter

It's gently raining today.  The woodpecker's been pecking at the house, while managing to avoid me.  The noise of the pellet hitting is supposed to startle them off for good, and works best if you can hit the gutter.  There's no gutter near the preferred pecking spots.

 












Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 31, 2020, 07:06:20 PM
Over 1250 tested and diagnosed in my state.
Sixty-five in my city.
We just learned of our first death, an elderly woman.

I see a lot of social distancing but also incidents (usually young folks, or runners who won't adjust their paths) of ignoring it (and you, if you're walking there). Running right past you as you go along the edge of the road just a few feet away. If in our 70s we could easily hop into a yard, we would...it ain't always easy.

Rather than seething about it, I'm trying to wish them well, think kind thoughts, and refocus on the pleasant people happy to share a six-foot chat and exchange cheer.

So I won't trip anybody, promise.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on March 31, 2020, 07:23:01 PM
Hops:

I was at the neighbor's house 2 days ago.  The ones with the homemade beer.  I found myself TRYING to stand up wind.... or at least not directly DOWN wind as it was a very breezy day.  The wife, who works at a bank full time,  kept adjusting herself... like she knew what I was doing.... countering me. 

The husband filled beer glasses and handed them out... I tried to keep up with my antibac wipe, but I know I failed.

There's something really demoralizing about SEEING people behave in a way that's dangerous.  I was just down for the count yesterday.... didn't want to go back for the grilled fish dinner they invited me to.  Would rather have crushed my ankle. 

Keep giving lots of space to people who don't know better, Hops.  Isn't it about time you and M can have play dates at each other's houses?

Lighter



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 31, 2020, 08:36:06 PM
I felt scared of my grocery delivery this evening.
Even though I am armed with what to do.

I understand obsession or too much anxiety aren't
rational but do not fault anyone for what they feel.
There is rational fear, that is protective. (This wasn't
it but I nixed it pretty quick and am relaxed again.)

M is just irritating me, but that's for another thread.

tx,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 01, 2020, 03:59:19 AM
Thank you, Lighter and Hops :)  I am so grateful to have your input.  I feel much better today - slept better and woke up this morning determined not to let other people rain on my parade.  This has the potential to be a good time for me and son - lots of time to rest, work on home activities, shred paperwork, do yoga and so on - that this could be a really good thing for us.  I'm not going to let other people, who can't just sit home and read a book, spoil that for us.  So no more thinking about my mum, or anyone else for that matter.  I'm only answering the phone now to people who I know will be calling to say, hey, Tupp!  I read a book I think you might like, or I saw that such and such a film is on tonight and I know you like that sort of thing.  Practical people who deal with the situation and who, if they aren't coping, recognise that and try to do something about it themselves, not people who offload their shit on to me.  Humph!  Lol.

I think a lot of people are less aware of the risk, because they're not at such serious risk.  People who haven't had (or currently got) significant health problems or close relatives with them, or who don't fit the age demographic of 'you're not worth a ventilator so we won't give you one' just don't feel as exposed, I think, as other people who know that if they get this that (a) it will, at the very least knock them for six, (b) is more likely to be very serious, if not fatal for them and (c) won't make the grade if there isn't enough equipment to go around (or, as Hops has pointed out, don't want to be rigged up to a machine and would rather sort things out themselves).  So I think that's part of the problem.

I do think as well, and I'm sorry because I'm on my socialist soap box again, that Western arrogance and privilege play a part with some people.  There are so many people in the UK (and I'm sure in the States as well) who have genuinely never gone without.  They've never not been able to buy whatever they fancy in the supermarket or been unable to go out (or order in) whatever and whenever they want.  There's no need in the UK to look after your health in order to get medical care on the NHS.  There are some instances where they won't perform surgery until people lose weight or stop smoking because of the increased risks but generally speaking people here can ignore medical advice as much as they want and they'll still get treatment regardless.  So there are few people who actually know what it's like when a doctor can't magically make you better.  They've never been without a nice home, money for luxuries, unlimited travel options and so on and so forth, and it's not a lifestyle just reserved for the very wealthy.  People on moderate incomes here can live like that.  And of course, many people do appreciate all they've got and are aware of how lucky they are, but a surprising number I think do feel that they will always be able to carry on like that.  They don't seem to take the risk seriously because they've just not been in a situation before where there isn't 'someone' who will sort everything out for them - the food magically appears in the shops, the water keeps flushing the toilets, you can buy as much unnecessary crap as you like and there's no penalty.  So I do think it leads to a kind of notion that they'll be alright no matter what.

Hops, I feel anxious when groceries arrive, and when taking in any other package or doing anything like putting the bins out.  I think it's natural.  It's a bit like having to deal with spiders :)  Lighter, I wouldn't go visiting them if you don't feel comfortable.  If they're not taking precautions with you then they won't be anywhere else either.  There's no hope of stopping this completely until they stop letting people travel between different countries.  They're still letting people off planes unchecked here.  They just disembark and head straight out.  No checks, no testing.  All to protect corporate interests.  It's madness.

Anyway, that's my little musing for the day :)  Thank you for letting me waffle on :) lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on April 01, 2020, 09:36:45 AM
LOL... still all well here, except all of us are dealing with allergies to tree pollen right now. Hol is working on quilts, minding the contractors on the Hut, cooking... and trying to organize all of us into contributing to good meals. John is working on his van... being there for Hol to talk through all her feelings at odd hours of the night when she wakes up. Steve is starting a whole new batch of medicinal mushrooms - cordyceps, reishi, etc. and walking the property looking for wild ones... and other native medicinal herbs. (I'm better at that than he is.) He's the most worried about not having any more income this year - since his work is usually at big events in DC.

Making do... and creative solutions... are what I'm good for around here. My obsessive cleaning is also useful. As well as coming up with projects for people to do.

As the stay at home orders are extended, we're still OK. Enforcement still isn't too draconian around here. Contractors still working; hardware, pharmacy; gas stations & grocery still stocked and busy. The shop is still working - orders aren't nearly as awful as they looked one day a week ago - and my oldest employee is the bookkeeper; she's been working nights to minimize her contact with everyone else. (She's over 80.)

I kinda feel like we're all suspended in time; limbo. Hol keeps asking me to bring out a friend of hers that makes her laugh a lot - altho the relational price he exacts for that is a tad too high, in my balance sheet. My brain wants to analyze and nail down all the things that are going to remain different now.... and will change further in the future. Emotionally, I'm on a roller-coaster... while trying to hang on to the middle of the road and stay cool, calm & collected. Or at least appear that way... as an anchor for everyone else. But even I am losing it sometimes.

Emotionally I believe I'd feel better if Buck were here... but that's a whole new set of personality challenges with everyone else here I've not got the energy for right now. And my solitude? pfffft... I have my bedroom suite and that's it for now unless I get in my car and drive off. I'm not even going out once a week, consistently, right now - because my allergies are so bad I get funny looks for sneezing and coughing and sniffing... ye olde runny nose.

Well. Today I'm going to check about getting my plow picked up end of the week. And perhaps meet with a lawyer re: combining the deeds for my property... and retitling in the trust. Lawyers are essential in my state - but that doesn't mean they're keeping regular hours.

This too shall pass - I'm trying to put the time to good use and not get wrapped too tight over what isn't showing up clearly in my crystal ball about the future.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 01, 2020, 11:42:21 AM
Putting this link here regarding fear around receiving groceries, being around other people, virus, food shortages, overwhelmed medical systems,etc.

I plan to put it on Mindfulness and Relationship threads also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vmwsg8Eabo
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 01, 2020, 05:29:21 PM
Enjoyed the video, Lighter!

Realized I AM his female friend (and that's why I'm so wary of M's disasterizing and late-night anxiety/tragedy stuffed calls, and get fed up with his dramatic anxious messaging at times). Pure and simple, it's contagious to me. It truly is. He releases it and because of my susceptibility to that contagion, I'm up all night.

The other association I got (I thought it would end with "fear itself" but it didn't) was between shortness of breath and what he described.

One reason the virus is so scary to me is how it can end up, lungs not working, ventilation, etc. I associate SOB (shortness of breath) with panic and vice versa, and when I feel it building I am a mess.

I also see why I have never, once, ever been able to enjoy a horror film, unlike other folks with less easily triggered anxiety reactions. In my case the music always scares me more than the vocals. I learned early to plug my ears first, then it wouldn't be that distressing.

Very interesting stuff, and the contagion part is so very relevant today.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 02, 2020, 10:12:10 PM
I tried to start the CRV today. There was a grinding noise and it didn't want to start.  I persisted, and eventually it turned over.  I drove to the grocery stores and sat watching in the parking lots.... just to see how things really are.

The guys pushing shopping carts back into the store weren't wearing gloves.  ONE shopper guy at Publix wore gloves and a mask.  Maybe 10 other shoppers I saw did not.

I drove to another grocery store and there were more cars in the lot, more people and just as few masks and gloves.  Watching people touch EVERYTHING made me feel sick, like throwing up, so I left.


The car started right up, so I hope whatever went wrong was caused by not starting it for 3 weeks. 

Ladies, start your cars every once in a while and drive them.  You don't want problems you can avoid to creep up on you.

Lighter


Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 03, 2020, 12:41:58 AM
I recently sold my ancient, reliable, lovable CRV, Lighter.
When I got the amazing lucky Prius (for a ridiculously low amount) I gradually began driving it all the time, not loving the ride or feel as much as the CRV, but finding the low-fuel impossible to pass up.

Anyway, I too left my CRV unstarted way too long and it died -- battery etc. I finally realized it made no moral or economic sense for my life, for me to have two vehicles. I would space out for too long and forget again.

Glad yours is okay!

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 05, 2020, 02:54:35 PM
Mask, splash guard, and gloves in place I went to Aldi's (for milk) and Lowes for Preen weed preventative, seeds and some plants.  I've never had any luck growing tomato plants from seeds and I'm not doing that now, for any reason so bought 3 kinds of cherry tomato seedlings. 

It's going to rain so will get the Preen down now. 

I did want to say there were what appeared to be 4 guards outside the Best Buy.  At Lowes they had a stupid line for the outdoor plant section that made zero sense.  It didn't tell you where to walk, inside the barrier or outside and so I had to walk it twice bc there was no one in line to show me where to go and the lady who told me to get into the non-existent line didn't think I needed to go to the right place.  Oh well. 

They shut down access to the indoor building and things weren't perfect but I found everything I needed (seeds are INSIDE, plants are outside) I'm not complaining.  Everyone is understaffed and doing their best, I'm sure.

There were marked places to stand at checkout and constant reminders to stay 6 feet away from other shoppers over the loudspeaker.  People DID stay away from each other.  About half had masks on, some had gloves.  One guy had a black ski mask, ball cap, and sunglasses on... looked like a bank robber but no one cared.

I carried sani wipes the entire time, constantly wiping down my gloves and what I picked up, the cart.... just made me feel better to DO something.  When I got in the car I felt like I needed to move... to get up and out of the discomfort of maybe having coronavirus on my clothes, skin, in my hair.

I'm going to play in the dirt.

Lighter 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on April 08, 2020, 09:36:48 AM
Our stay at home order was declared March 16.
It's been almost a month.

To date, the state has had 4 deaths from the virus - all nursing home residents or very ill elderly. Except for a handful of medium-sized cities, we have very little "urban" areas.

Life is going on out here "as normal". I got curious about the state's definition of "essential businesses" - and about the only things shut down are the social clubs (VFW and the like), schools, restaurants and the odd bowling alley or movie theater. (We don't even have many of those things out here.)

Most of the reported numbers by state (on average over all 50 of them) show that pretty much the 80-90% recovery rate that China was advertising has held true here. EVEN in urban areas. So, I'm thinking that this continued social distancing "mandate" is very much overdone.

I'm thinking some other things too; but that's not our focus here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 08, 2020, 12:39:18 PM
So.... we've had our first shooting in the neighborhood.  Someone shot INTO the home of a person living a couple hoods over.  The post said there was a shot INTO her home the next day also.. this one hitting her dog in the head, but not killing it.

This was followed by what appeared to be passive-aggressive posts from people who felt it was very sad someone took the law into their own hands in a necessary attempt to quiet down barking dogs who had a view of the entire hood, barked at EVERYTHING and without any pause. These neighbors are named in their posts, have a view of everything going on and are engaging with the dog owner on the message board.

The dog owner wrote the bullet almost hit her son, which suggests to me the person pulling the trigger had a good scope and sent a very pointed message... terrifying, IMO. The owner went on to say anyone COULD have called her to talk to her about the problem, but didn't.  It seemed like neighbors on both sides chimed in and I haven't checked to see how that's going today......
dogs are meant to bark
dogs shouldn't be allowed to bark non stop in populated areas ::shrug::

When Auntie H died, she'd been struggling/sobbing over not being able to sleep for months bc of a neighbor's dog barking all the time.  She talked to that neighbor.  She put foam insulation in her windows... her bedroom was dark all the time, she had to sleep sitting up bc of congestive heart failure AND she could barely eat..... not being able to sleep was torment and she died tormented bc a single neighbor gal didn't have the capacity to deal with her dog or consider her neighbors.  I was very upset at that dog owner at the time. I felt the dog deserved a home where someone attended to it and could care for it better.   

I've been on both sides of the problem and I DID feel responsible for quieting my barking dog.  It was a problem.  I worked at solving the problems.  I didn't do it perfectly and one set of neighbors remained angry at me, despite my trying and worrying and dealing with the problem with occasional problems.

Two neighbors, the two I'd run to if the contractor showed up, were talking about having the ability to protect themselves and property if the worst case scenario happened.  Are we at that point?  They fear people running out of food, bc of lost jobs, breaking into their homes to take food and stuff, and having to KILL these people.  We have a good safety net to feed people who can't feed themselves, IMO. I don't worry about that right now.

Guns are coming into the equation around here.

Lighter



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 08, 2020, 04:58:01 PM
Don't feed the fear furnace.
Enough people are on the job.

M sent me an essay from The New Yorker today, about dogs worrying about their owners.

"I know, you're watching the fear box," one dog says.

That's what news is but more significantly, it's DEFINITELY what social media is.

Retreat, relax, stop reading.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 08, 2020, 05:26:44 PM
Well. I ordered a bark collar for baby girl pug then went back into the yard. 

It's sad to think of our dogs watching us and worrying.....
"I know you're watching the fear box."

That's so sad. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 15, 2020, 07:41:57 PM
OK.  The dog shooting discussion on neighborhood message board devolved into a caveman vs indignant posters using words like psychopath and active shooter......
"discussion."

Political, of course.  Some of it funny.  Most of it tedious and designed to poke rather than find understanding. 

The update is.... there's a police report and detective on the case.  Hopefully, they'll find the person who shot the dog, and arrest them.  I have to tell you.... the court system here has been shut down... or it was when I last checked.  I assume they'll let the person out on bond, then what?

Things are unlikely to get better on their own, particularly with all the nutsy rocksy statements being made.  I think a lot of it's racial, to be honest.

I'm not worrying.  I'm looking at it with eyes unclouded by hate and it's not a good view.

Oh... did I say I ordered a bark collar for baby girl pug?  I did. 

Lighter 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 15, 2020, 07:59:59 PM
A man pooped in the woods near a ritzy neighborhood... .wooded area with trails, then started masturbating.  Cops were called.  A man shouted at the guy (caucasian, 40s or 50s) and sent him running. 

A naked man (caucasian) was arrested near the same area, not sure if it was the same man. 

People are really losing their minds around here and we're not in a big city.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 15, 2020, 10:35:45 PM
This is the most devastatingly beautiful-while-horrific piece of journalism on the coronavirus I've read yet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/magazine/coronavirus-er-doctor-diary-new-york-city.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/magazine/coronavirus-er-doctor-diary-new-york-city.html)

This newspaper leaves me speechless sometimes.

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 16, 2020, 02:23:15 AM
These sort of situations bring out the best and worst in people, and unfortunately the worst get a lot more press coverage here than the good actions.  Kids have been making face guards on 3D printers  - domestic violence deaths have doubled.  NHS staff are dying because they don't have the right protective gear - politicians are claiming it's because they're misusing it.  Horror and glory side by side.  Madness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 16, 2020, 11:05:49 AM
Horror and glory.

::nodding::.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 17, 2020, 09:36:42 AM
You're right, Tupp.... lots of really tragic things in the world right now.  I think I need to stay off the neighborhood message board EXCEPT I found 2 new mossing buddies.... women who cultivate and love moss like I do AND have outdoor showers they can go on and on about.  I can block certain posters.... and maybe threads.   That's just what I'm going to do.

Hops, the ER doc's story changed the way I moved through my day yesterday.  I was IN my head... not so focused on surfaces and disinfecting in the usual way.  Almost like I couldn't focus my vision or breath right... walk right.  Just very IN my head and not in my body...  that's how it felt.  Very threatened and vulnerable and the ER doc's fear ..... his feeling of being overwhelmed inhabited me.
I figured it out when I was all done and sitting in the car.... NOT feeling the way I had before, which was wanting to get away from my clothing.  THIS time I was focused on breathing through the mask and seeing through the splash guard..... like they weighed many pounds... so weighty.

It didn't help to see many children shopping with their parents, sans protection, and there were 2 young 8ish yo boys running around bouncing balls..... touching things, sitting on things, no masks or gloves.  I don't know if they were with a worker or a shopping parent bc they were on their own, roaming the store the entire time. Lots of people without gloves.... most had masks.

The healthcare provider I loved in Atlanta thinks the virus is a hoax.  She's seeing patients without wearing any protective gear or requiring patients wear any. The friend with heart and lung problems sees her twice a week, which is super alarming, even if the office is getting wiped down between patients. I want to say..... years ago that provider had that friend on supplements for his heart and lungs, which weren't an issue (with his Western med docs at that time.)  Now he's been in and out of the hospital with alarming symptoms and plenty of evidence his heart and lungs WERE a problem years ago..... but Western medicine requires problems become alarming symptoms THEN the treatment of prescription drugs begins. 

I don't understand or believe in that.  So, his choices are to stop all Western meds, and figure this out with more Eastern methods, OR continue with the Western medications and the Eastern.... see how that goes.  Instead of wishing he chooses one or the other, I'm upset he didn't deal with the imbalance in his system BEFORE he became very ill.  I just don't understand the logic AND THIS FRIEND received a lot of relief and help from this practitioner for other things, actual symptoms of course, when he was seeing her.  He started feeling better, tipped his hat, thanked her for her help and stopped going, which is the experience that practitioner normally has with men in her practice. 

 My youngest dd said she's lost all respect for that provider, bc of the hoax belief.   I suspect her man is a conspiracy theorist... and she's been contaminated, bc she's normally very level, no-nonsense kind of woman.  That's a huge heartbreak for me.... the people in my life who're contaminated by the talking heads.  I'm expecting more of an explanation about that particular belief from that particular health care professional.  I really want to know why she believes that.

Lighter







Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 17, 2020, 12:54:05 PM
Remember, Lighter that this woman (the ER doc) was in an overwhelmed system in NYC. That doesn't mean that the situation couldn't become equally fearful in clusters in less-populated places, but the threat haunting you personally is likely not to come to pass.

What you can do is continue to rationally protect yourself and your children, to the best of your ability.

What you can't do is: 1) change people's ignorance or politics, 2) change other people's behavior, or 3) make any of it better by making yourself feel worse.

I'm sorry the NYTimes article was so haunting for you. I shared it because it's so profoundly REAL and I was very moved by her courage and writing talent, but I apologize for not adding some kind of "trigger warning." Fear and panic are contagious, and I don't want to either feed the fear furnace or do anything to undermine anyone's hard-won calm.

I know yours is hard won; hope your furnace can be banked down again.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Lollie on April 17, 2020, 03:11:56 PM
Just stopping in after a long absence to check in on how everyone is doing. It's lovely to see so many of you still here. I hope you are all doing the best you can & are safe and healthy.

xoxo
Lollie
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 19, 2020, 03:50:44 AM
Just stopping in after a long absence to check in on how everyone is doing. It's lovely to see so many of you still here. I hope you are all doing the best you can & are safe and healthy.

xoxo
Lollie

Hello Lollie, it's lovely to see you, I hope you are well :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 19, 2020, 10:49:25 AM
Hi Lollie,
How are you doing?!?
Any chance you would like to start a thread and remind us and catch us up on you?

Hope all is well with you.

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 20, 2020, 05:25:26 AM
Welcome back, lollie: )

Hops:

I feel asleep reading the ER doc article, then woke up and finished it before heading out to the store.  BEFORE heading to the store I was waiting for the boy's mom to show.... she was over an hour late.  I wasn't set up to have the best shopping experience that day.

I bought a new washing machine at Lowe's today.  They let their appliance people take the month off, so we had to wait an hour just to speak to someone.  That someone was from another department and worked very hard to take us in order.  I noticed at least half the shoppers and most of the workers didn't have any protective gear on.  There was one family with 4 children... 10 and under.... NO GEAR. 

A neighbor drove me, along with his little trailer, and we took the washer with us, then installed it.  SO HEAVY, but got the job done and he took away the old one to scrapper. 

It's raining like crazy so I'm glad the washing machine problem is solved.  Now... to solve the cook top problem.

Lighter

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 20, 2020, 05:40:25 AM
I'm glad the washing machine is sorted out now, Lighter, it's no picnic having to hand wash or use the launderette, especially with so much going on.

I'm cross on your behalf that the boy's mum was an hour late.  Very thoughtless.

Our supermarkets here only allow one person in to shop, no families, unless single parents and the children are too young to be left at home or in the car.  The queue lines are clearly marked into six feet sections to show where you need to stand and all the shops have been made one way.  People do ignore, but staff are there to remind them.  They are limiting the numbers going in to shops as well, so if they reach their limit then they implement a one in, one out system.  They'd have avoided a lot of deaths if they'd put that in place sooner.  There is a hilarious picture going round the internet of a cat taking his place in the queue and sitting two metres behind the person in front, and even funnier is a lady who is standing two metres behind the cat.  It did make me laugh :)

Can you use the cooker at all at the moment?  I hope that problem gets sorted soon and that you're all doing okay  (((((((((((Lighter))))))))))))
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 20, 2020, 07:02:33 AM
I have a little counter hot plate that works well enough.   

It might be as cheap to purchase two new burner units... I really want to replace the grill side of the stove top, rather than replace that one burned-out eye AND buy the new unit.  That;s confusing, I know. 


My neighbor said he'd help me if I wanted to try to fix on my own. I think we could figure it out with Youtube.  He's good with electronics.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 22, 2020, 08:21:37 AM
I have a little counter hot plate that works well enough.   

It might be as cheap to purchase two new burner units... I really want to replace the grill side of the stove top, rather than replace that one burned-out eye AND buy the new unit.  That;s confusing, I know. 


My neighbor said he'd help me if I wanted to try to fix on my own. I think we could figure it out with Youtube.  He's good with electronics.

Lighter

It's a pain dealing with those big problems, I find, trying to balance out cost, time, practicality and so on.  It's good that your neighbour can help!  Hopefully it will be sorted soon.

The Covid related problems here seem to be getting worse rather than better, not least because the Government seem to be making up numbers and facts and hoping people won't notice.  They're still not recording care home deaths in the overall numbers so although the 'official' figure is 17,000, 20,000 seems to be more likely and possibly higher than that.  It's looking quite possible that son and I will be in fairly permanently until they find a vaccine or cure, or eradicate completely.  He has agreed to come for an evening walk wearing a mask so I've ordered those and they should arrive next week.  I was thinking that if they open up the cinema and library at some point we could possibly use those if we go as 'first customers of the day' as everything should be clean and we can walk there and back and minimise the risk.  The same could be done with the osteopath and acupuncturist if they re-open at some point (I am feeling the effects of not having my regular treatments and it must be the same for son).  It's very difficult thinking about ways to balance the risk of getting ill with the risk of goodness only knows what not leaving the house for eighteen months does to you.  Just pondering things at the moment, nothing's definite, but having seen the way these people have manhandled the situation (and are now all jumping up and down blaming each other instead of bloody well dealing with it) I have no faith that anything is going to be resolved soon.xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 22, 2020, 02:35:41 PM
Typp:

I'm comforted by the way you're moving through problems.  You find solutions or make peace with what is... it's really how I see your posts these days.  Just very pointed and focused.  No confusion is what I'm trying to say here.

Today my T said our minds are like crabs in the way we learn new things... a step forward, one back, then two sideways.  We don't learn in a linear fashion.  That's why there are really confusing days where we just don't get what we thought we got the day before, etc.  Paying attention to our thoughts and responses , when things aren't feeling settled and grounded, is the way to get back to feeling grounded. 

I'm glad you're OK with being at home and ready to weather this storm for the duration without huge anxiety.  Finding a way to see your osteopath is an issue, but you'll do what you can while remaining safe in that regard... however you deal with that.  We all have to figure out how to deal with dentist appointments, medical appointments.... remembering to pay attention to what's going on inside will help us get through it.

::Nod::

Lighter



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 22, 2020, 06:42:21 PM
Glad you're coping, Lighter, though I'm sorry you find you keep having to go places in public. I am just NOT. For almost six weeks now. Only have to keep this up for probably two years, no problem. !!!!

Saw a video of a Canadian couple I like who just lost their hearty, all-rules-following FIL, not elderly...who worked at Home Depot. Despite his strict adherence and masks and gloves and handwashing and six-feet-aparting, he caught it and died.

So I hope everyone I know and those I don't soon catch on soon to what Stay Home actually means.

I do have to go out on Thursday, to a necessary doctor's appointment. It's not in a hospital setting and I do trust them to be all over disinfection, as I will be. But to just go places to buy non-emergency stuff or stuff that could be delivered, however inconveniently, I'm wishing "acting normal" wasn't still happening in areas where the virus is just arriving and building up speed. (And where going out for essentials is unavoidable.)

A dear 89-y/o neighbor has been trying to convince her (and my) favorite neighbor-friend to take her to Lowe's, because she "needs" to buy flower seedlings. She just wants to get out, which is soooo understandable. But the hard truth is, nobody "needs" flowers. We need food, shelter, medicine, safe social connection, and that's it. Most communities, for the privileged anyway, can deliver food and meds. Most fortunate middle-to-upper-class people can manage online socializing or walks-and-talks in safe areas 8 feet apart. Farther if one can.

Just moaning. I wish the U.S. were all united as long as it takes, in accepting Stay Home.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 22, 2020, 06:51:19 PM
Tupp, the U.K. news is painful to read, I'm so sorry.
I think you're coping with it incredibly well, and son too.
I agree with you, this is going to be a lot longer than folks are hoping.

I don't like to indulge too much fantasy or hope, nowhere near as much as I like
trying to adapt to what reality is, not waiting for reality to become what I want.

Almost all the hopeful fantasies I have of what an ideal life IS, can be achieved within
myself in a small space, if my food and shelter are stable. They are.

For the rest, I think inner growth, writing, painting, growing, connecting (even if online), will be on average enough to sustain me and even allow me to still have those moments of real fulfillment, even happiness. Some of that will come with M if our relationship continues to grow. If not, I can find it with poetry, reading, learning, playing piano (badly), reaching out with letters or calls or online. I believe this period, should I remain virus free, can be rich.

Not perfect. That's beyond me. I had a couple whiney days. And now, sun out, sat in yard with friend eight feet apart, drank some wine, felt some joy. And gratitude's back.

I'm alive. The world is in pain but always has been, the pandemic just brings it nearer.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 23, 2020, 08:39:08 AM
CB,
That's so lovely that Mario is still in your life, as a caring friend! I didn't know.
And madjool dates are my new "junk" food. I have 4-5 a day and just love them. Got on a dates craze when I read something recently about how incredibly good for you they are. Glad he's stocking you up!

I'm generally eating healthier too. I think it's because when I order groceries, for some reason I just do not order any junk. That's probably because I'm actually thinking "need", not "crave."

I'm going to have to order some yeast from a local bakery that sells eggs, flour and yeast to the public. Unless I persuade myself to DIY, which looks very easy and fun. Here's a link if you want to try it (and don't miss the rooster!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wTt8VGyBdk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wTt8VGyBdk)

I wish I could send you a chunk of my yard, or hologram you up to weed my veggie beds! I loooove weeding too. It's painful these days with my back though, so I'm trying to find positions and methods that don't hurt as much.

Is there any strip of green, say near parking, at your apartment complex that a kind manager would allow you to turn into small veggie beds? Once you tell him your experience, and how you could also ring it with tidy flowers? Or any nearby bit of lawn, say near a business, that you could walk to? Bribe them with free veggies?

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 23, 2020, 09:04:44 PM
I love the sense I get of your new home, CB...have since the time you first described it. I'm so glad about the trees, and the green spaces, and the light, and your tropical collection too. If you want to plant outdoors sometime, you'll find a way. Your daughter's balcony garden must be incredible; wish I could see it. And one of your sons like to plant too. That's so cool.

I first injured my back when I was 10 and jumped down a flight of steps on a ferry on the north sea, trying to impress some Scottish boy scouts. Landed on my feet but so very hard it compressed my spine and hurt like hell. I remember screaming "My back! My back!" and one of the Scouts thought I was yelling "My bag!" and kept waving my purse in my face: "Heere it is! Heere it is!" The pain was pretty intense but after my Dad carried me back to the cabin, I slept it off overnight. I did judo and riding during college, but nothing really jocky. The first severe (herniated discs) was in my 40s, heaving a huge potted tree into my truck (stooooopid lifting). Blew out two discs. Re-injured it over and over, just living life, and particularly when taking care of my parents. The last big "disc re-rip" was my Dad's last bath a few weeks before he died. Overnight he became too weak to help me get him out of the tub, and it was 3am and I wasn't going to make him wait for EMTs. So I bent over the edge and heaved him up and all way out. Rrrrrip.

I had five or six steroid xray-guided steroid injection treatments at a pain clinic just to keep going with Mom. Ten years at a computer all day in the horrible job during that period made it worse.  Mom would lean on me like a cane, and I'd be getting on the floor over and over to find things, as well as lifting her off the floor when she fell (she never broke anything but she was hefty). It all just added up so my back is permanently fragile. I'm okay if I'm very careful and never lift anything heavier than 20 pounds. For good, I believe. But pain is easy to trigger, and the pratfall the other day just jarred it again. It's much better today than it was.

Gardening is extremely tough to do alone these days. But if I do a little little bit at a time and get help with the heavy stuff, I can still find pleasure in it.

All that complaining and I still find a whole lot of joy in looking at it all. My yard's big and shaggy and not well groomed, but it's also beautiful. People like being there and that's what matters to me.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 26, 2020, 07:42:39 PM
Youngest dd and I went out of the house today.  We dropped a package off at her friend's house, then went to Aldis together.  DD drove..... she wasn't comfortable at all... it's been a while since she's been behind the wheel.  We need to go out and practice to get her comfortable again.

Hops, I'm afraid your wish for me to stay in got me thinking about what the girls would do without me.  I want at least one of them to know how to go into the world safely, and by safe I mean masked, splash guard, gloved with antibac wipes in hand to wiped down food items and gloves constantly, then get through check out, and into car and home.  It was very stressful for dd and she's napping now.  She always took it seriously, but seeing people NOT take it seriously was horrifying for her.

More and more I'm releasing expectation and outcome for my children.  It's new.  It's freeing and it's time.  I notice how I'm staying still and quiet, which translates into their moving and doing for themselves more.  When I tell them to do do do.... they do less.  If I say it once.... then step back, they step up.   

It's interesting to SEE my part in how quickly they mature or don't.

Lighter









Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 26, 2020, 08:17:48 PM
Is grocery delivery available where you are, Lighter?

It's a shame to think of your DD feeling horrified about near-hazmat preparations for going into a store. Sounds like you've explained precautions well enough, but can you not find ways to Stay Home instead?

This pandemic won't last forever, and though we do need to prepare our kids for the real world, perhaps preparing them for a pandemic apocalypse just introduces a lot of intense fear, that they maybe could live without? "Horrified" is a painful state of mind, I hate to think of it. Especially for a young person.

Unless there are urgent compelling reasons for the excursions, which there well might be. I just don't know anyone else who wears face shields and uses ozone machine and all that you do. And how frequently you seem to go out. To each their own though, and I don't fully grasp your situation. Maybe you're in an isolated area that doesn't offer delivery or ordering ahead a week by...Amazon, say.

It might mean you're the best prepared person I know and you're helping your kids survive! Just as debbil's advocate, could it possibly also mean you're sharing some habitual fear with them? Any of that might not really be pandemic related?

Reasonable fear creates reasonable decisions, imo. I make tons of mistakes myself (such as tripping over a big box I got safely into my home but left in a stupid spot). Now I pay the consequences.

NOBODY gets this perfect, I'm sure of that. The pandemic just seems to bring parts of ourselves into relief. I'm not altogether liking all my discoveries about my tendencies (in my case, very differently, to underperform), that's for sure.

Take any insight that rings helpful and ignore the rest, please do.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on April 27, 2020, 05:38:44 AM
DD needed to drive AND had a package to deliver to a friend.  She's not so steady driving, bc she hasn't been practicing so I went with her.  She was shaken up.... she scraped a tire against a curb and downtown was all but closed up.... homeless people on so many corners.  This was dd's first time out of the house/neighborhood.  I think anyone would be shocked. She didn't want to drive after leaving her friend's house. 

The horrifying part wasn't wearing protective gear.  It was watching people out and about being careless.  People with children.  She was ready to go home when we left Aldis.  Didn't feel well at all.
As I said.... I think she was in shock, literally.  We're working on breathing and she's listening to what happens when anxiety and fear take over.  She's interested in learning how to calm herself. 
 

To be clear.... I've spent too much time sheltering both girls.  I notice when I want to keep doing things they can and should do for themselves.   I can rationalize it.... they'll be gone soon... in college..... all grown up, but that doesn't feel right.  Letting them learn and grow feels right.   

I stop myself.  I think about teaching them more.  I realized, after your post about wishing I'd stay in more...  that I hadn't prepared the girls to go out in any way.  It's scary when you don't have a system.... when you're shocky.... when others aren't being careful. 

The shock is a problem.  I want them clear on safety and their right to keep themselves safe.  I want them comfortable and capable of doing what needs doing.  That takes practice.  It helps to see someone else do it.  Knowing what's out there, now, is a necessary thing, IMO.

As for the delivery services... they're a week out and a lot more expensive.  I used them early on and put much of those orders in reserve.... lots of dried and canned goods.  That's a necessary thing. 

Going out once a week means we have fresh foods when we need and want them.  The girls are planning meals and engaged in meal prep.  Lots of dancing in the kitchen and enjoying food.  There's comfort in that.

 We're running the vehicles... they need to drive more than they have been.

I agree there's no perfect way to get through this and understand your concerns.

The way I feel about it dropped like a penny and my gut just clicked. 

The girls are going to get stronger and grow up a lot through these months.  I understand why I held back before.... their bickering was so distracting and distressing.


  I'm not holding back now.

Lighter
 



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 01, 2020, 05:33:45 AM
This has been an interesting week--on Monday, the governor of our state opened retail for business and my 2 kids who are nurses were horrified because they are still seeing a lot of COVID patients, and more all the time. My doctor said that I should not go back to work, so I called HR and they were surprisingly accommodating. I will get all my accrued time off and they are officially laying me off so I can get unemployment. So this will not be too bad at all.

I was going to start my unemployment claim today, but felt frozen at the finality of it, so I put it off til tomorrow. I don't think I will end up going back to this company since part time is not going to be available, and that's what I'm ready for at this stage in my life. So all of this is happening in terrible finality and all very quickly without much time to process the total change I see in my future. I am not grieving the job so much as I am feeling a little off balance. Today I mailed the store key back. I could have driven up there, but I wasnt ready for that.

I think I set it up for a pretty good launch since I didnt burn any bridges until there was nothing left to do. But we are in such a strange no man's land right now. The COVID rates are going up in my city daily and I think everyone knows that it will lead to another shut down in the next month. So everything feels unbalanced there as well. My kids are okay except half are sheltering in place alone and that is stressful. We talk a lot though.

No projects right now--just reading, some organizing, cooking meals and talking to the kids. I had never finished getting my art supplies organized when I moved in, so I have finally gotten that done at a built in desk and cabinet that came with the apartment, but I probably wont use it for anything else, so maybe I have an art table already in place??!! I havent even thought about art projects in years because I have used up most of my creativity at work for these past 6. So now I'm going to have to re-think that. There are a lot of teaching videos online--so many I can hardly choose what to watch. I am watching an acrylic painter that paints flowers so I'm thinking that might be what I begin work on.

I'm kinda surprised how fast the days go by and that doesnt make any sense. I don't have to do much food ordering any more, just keeping up with things as they run out. Maybe one delivery a week. I'm also amazed at how much better I feel physically. Most of my fibromyalgia pain is gone and all of my foot pain. Hops, that place on my leg that I banged when I fell a year ago still gives me some trouble. Someone told me at the time to not be surprised at how long it takes to heal. Guess they weren't kidding, but I'll give you the same heads up!

So I guess I don't have any complaints except feeling a bit like I landed in a foreign country and I'm not sure what to do next. I'm like you, Tupp, I am just doing whatever I feel like doing at the moment and feeling pretty good about it! I have the same happiness that you do with your son about my own son. He was ill for so long, but is doing better and finally has a remote computer tech job, so when you talk about how relieved you are that your son is doing well, I know just what you mean. The relief is so profound, it's hard to explain it.

CB

I think the not knowing what the new normal is is very hard, CB, how do you prepare when you don't know what's coming.  They will need to start re-opening businesses - people here are really starting to go stir crazy and then you get into that thing of how much more damage do you do by people not going to work, being isolated, businesses going under and what have - linked to the fact that, because they haven't got it under control yet, the infection rate will just leap up again as soon as more people start to mingle.  And then I know that for people at risk (like us) that means us staying in even longer.  I think realistically we personally will be looking at shielding for a year, if not more.  It's all been so badly handled and people keep saying it's easy with hindsight but they knew it was coming and so many of them, various countries, just seem to have ignored it.  Awful situation.

I'm glad the unemployment situation has worked out in a good way for you though, and that it means you won't be without income completely.  I am surprised at how quickly the days are going and how little I'm getting done on a lot of them.  Part of me thinks I should be doing more but just doing the basics feels like a lot of work at the minute.  Son is happy and I haven't gone mad yet so we're doing okay :)  And amazing that your pain has reduced so much!  Do you think that's down to working less and just having more time to rest up?  Great news, whatever the reason.  And yes, lovely when the kids are happy, I would be finding this so difficult right now if my son were struggling with it.  I said to him last night, "Thanks for handling the lockdown so well, you've been really amazing all the way through this" and he just shrugs it off and tells me to be quiet because he's busy watching his show lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 01, 2020, 07:15:08 AM
DD needed to drive AND had a package to deliver to a friend.  She's not so steady driving, bc she hasn't been practicing so I went with her.  She was shaken up.... she scraped a tire against a curb and downtown was all but closed up.... homeless people on so many corners.  This was dd's first time out of the house/neighborhood.  I think anyone would be shocked. She didn't want to drive after leaving her friend's house. 

The horrifying part wasn't wearing protective gear.  It was watching people out and about being careless.  People with children.  She was ready to go home when we left Aldis.  Didn't feel well at all.
As I said.... I think she was in shock, literally.  We're working on breathing and she's listening to what happens when anxiety and fear take over.  She's interested in learning how to calm herself. 
 

To be clear.... I've spent too much time sheltering both girls.  I notice when I want to keep doing things they can and should do for themselves.   I can rationalize it.... they'll be gone soon... in college..... all grown up, but that doesn't feel right.  Letting them learn and grow feels right.   

I stop myself.  I think about teaching them more.  I realized, after your post about wishing I'd stay in more...  that I hadn't prepared the girls to go out in any way.  It's scary when you don't have a system.... when you're shocky.... when others aren't being careful. 

The shock is a problem.  I want them clear on safety and their right to keep themselves safe.  I want them comfortable and capable of doing what needs doing.  That takes practice.  It helps to see someone else do it.  Knowing what's out there, now, is a necessary thing, IMO.

As for the delivery services... they're a week out and a lot more expensive.  I used them early on and put much of those orders in reserve.... lots of dried and canned goods.  That's a necessary thing. 

Going out once a week means we have fresh foods when we need and want them.  The girls are planning meals and engaged in meal prep.  Lots of dancing in the kitchen and enjoying food.  There's comfort in that.

 We're running the vehicles... they need to drive more than they have been.

I agree there's no perfect way to get through this and understand your concerns.

The way I feel about it dropped like a penny and my gut just clicked. 

The girls are going to get stronger and grow up a lot through these months.  I understand why I held back before.... their bickering was so distracting and distressing.


  I'm not holding back now.

Lighter
 

It's difficult, isn't it, Lighter, how do you prepare them when you don't know what you need to prepare them for?  Everything is up in the air.  What will normal be?  What will we all need to be able to do?  Very tough questions to answer right now xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 01, 2020, 06:35:35 PM
(((((CB)))))

I just get a sense of you floating while accepting.
Being open and curious about this extended time, not gnawing your paws off to get out of the cage.

There's something so lovely about this response to What Is. Unusual and moving.

That's it for now, just wanted to say something of peace, of spiritual maturity, came out of your account/update to me.

big hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 02, 2020, 01:54:48 AM
Ugh, I imagine going online to file for unemployment is a hair puller. But I hope you'll do it soon! Remember, you have outstanding experience and would have a very good reference from the company, so if after all this is over you want to work again some day, you would be a stellar find.

Meanwhile, enjoy those happy feet!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 02, 2020, 03:33:23 PM
CB:

Healing your feet and body during this time is a tremendous silver lining, isn't it?

Yup yup yup.

I'm trying to stretch every day. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 03, 2020, 06:05:14 AM
Awww, thanks, Hops! I really do feel very peaceful. It's been a long time coming. You all know....

Tupp, I think the pain is so diminished because fibro is made worse by repeated movements, and most of what I did at work was like that. Also, I was never off my feet long enough to let my feet heal. It's kind of amazing because I have had foot pain for most of the last 10 years. I am getting a little chubby though from sitting around!  I don't care, not looking for a boyfriend! ha!

I am kinda curious about why I am so adverse to getting online and signing up for unemployment. I didnt do it again today. Or rather, I waited til so late that when I ran into a glitch I had to stop and figure it out. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to get it, I think it's just admitting to myself that I don't have a job. My boss texted me about getting my stuff from my desk and I was actually offended. I'm weird.

Anyway, today was a good day. My oldest son is a nurse in a big ICU in town and I usually get to have a long talk with him on one of his days off. Today was that day and it was so enjoyable. He's the one that likes to talk philosophy and history and such and of course I'm always up for that! It was nice. I was thinking how many conversations like that I've missed because our schedules didnt jive and I'm just really grateful for this time.

However, I never got around to cooking dinner so it was oatmeal tonight. I'm going to have to get in gear tomorrow!

CB

It's a huge change to go from employed to unemployed, CB, especially in this work based world we live in.  It's a big mind shift so I can understand the reluctance to make it 'real' as it were.  It is closing a door, isn't it, and at the moment we don't know what's behind the new doors!  So it all feels unusual.  I'm glad your feet are feeling so much better, though!  I got to the point where mine were so painful all the time that if I was standing doing dishes, for example, I'd have to kind of balance on the edges of my feet, putting them down on the floor was just too painful to do.  It's difficult if you're on your feet a lot.  Nice that you got to talk with your biggest boy :)  It is nice when you get the time to have those long catch ups, just feels more satisfying than a quick chat or text.  A bit like a proper dinner instead of oatmeal!  Lol, hope you get a nice dinner tonight xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 05, 2020, 05:29:37 AM
Things are completely surreal here.  We've a group of scientists who've formed their own task force and are broadcasting their meetings live because they're so concerned about the way the government is behaving and the conflicting and contradictory advice they're giving out.  They're blatantly fiddling facts and numbers and NHS staff are being threatened with disciplinary action if they speak publicly about the lack of PPE.  We genuinely don't have a single news stream or government body we can actually trust to give us factual information.

Some people are being sensible - taking precautions but also not going overboard with it.  Some are ignoring it all completely.  Conspiracy theories are abundant and I notice a lot of people are keen for change, but only if it's other people who have to change.  There are still many shortages in the shops and essential supplies are still not getting through to people who need them.  I'm absolutely baffled by the whole thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 05, 2020, 06:55:01 AM
Just been announced that we have the highest death toll in Europe, currently standing at 32,000.  Reports are going round on Twitter than there are an additional 15,000 deaths more than would be normal for this time of year that have not yet been linked to Covid, for a number of reasons.  By my rough maths if our death rate were the same as New Zealand's we'd have lost less then 300.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 05, 2020, 01:04:33 PM
I hear you, Tupp.
The ignorance + aggression going on here is very difficult to stare at. Protestors exhibiting defiance (of what? an invisible virus?) are marching in cities with automatic weapons! Like that's going to get them their jobs back, or revitalize industry.

Oh good, you big brave macho person. You can shoot Covid-19 and be my hero!

My heart does break for those unemployed and desperate. I think we are headed for another Great Depression here. If we had a functioning government under a sane leader with a pollen fleck of ethics, the desperation would be reduced. I do understand how irrational people are when they think something is political or tribal when it's mostly not, and they know no other real word than "blame." We're one tribe now, as we all have the same risk, and the only answer is to help each other, as long as it lasts. Small ways, big ways, we just do what we can and endure.

It's tragic, the degree to which mistrust in politicians has become mistrust of all institutions, because that's not rational either, and there are so many scientists and doctors and public health experts --even some politicians like our good governors--trying their damndest to save more people. But you can't do what you can't do.

It's as though the ignoramuses are angry at bureaucrats for not knowing how to make a New Virus the Human Species Has No Immunity To, go away. Right now. It makes sense to be enraged when selfish power-grabbing politicians or profit-focused wealthy don't prepare or care who dies. That's true of our president and his evil party, imo.

But in general? The systems have failed most where people have poor educations, choose tribalism over knowledge and humanity, confuse financial success with righteousness, and are more entertained by finding blame and conspiracies than by finding solutions.

Back to the simplicity stuff. What we can control and what we can't. Dehydrating veggies and fruit to store. Buying rice and beans. Living minimally as we can. It's going to be a while, and all I can do is turn back to Silver Linings for hope and comfort. It does get harder while surges are still going on.

I'm expecting this greatly reduced way of being will last a year or more, and am already thinking about how to cope during winter. During spring-summer-fall, I can meet friends outdoors, and that's a sanity saver. But winter will be a new challenge.

hugs and comfort,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 05, 2020, 03:02:17 PM
Nodding all the way through, Hopsie, particularly with regard to winter.  I had a flash today of endless days of little daylight and even less sunshine and just shuddered.  There are tough times coming, that's for sure.

I think part of the problem, here at least, is that we've been sold a lifestyle for so long.  You can buy everything, literally, often for less than it would cost you to make it, and when you've finished with it you can just chuck it in the bin.  We're used to thrift because we've been on a low income for so long but I know a lot of people who aren't and they are finding it very difficult to put together meals from what they can get and avoid not just popping to the shop whenever they want to or going out to eat when they don't want to cook.  There's an expectation to look to the government to sort things out, understandably, and it's so bad here, they're not even quoting their own numbers accurately.  Literally can't read off a sheet of paper.  The Health Secretary a couple of days ago insisted a newspaper apologised for quoting inaccurate information about healthcare advice for older people.  It's literally been quoted of the government's own website - and this is the guy that is responsible for putting that healthcare advice together.  You really couldn't make it up.  And yes, a lot of arguing is going on about who's fault it is, who should pay for it all, who should change the way they do things so that it can't happen again and so on.  You don't stand in a burning building discussing the cause of the fire, you know?  Sigh.

There are pockets of goodness.  The nice man collected my son's meds again today and bought him some sweets, so kind.  Lots of people are volunteering, making face masks, collecting toys for kids in temporary accommodation but yep, our economy was in bad shape anyway and this has just ripped the bottom of it out completely.  And they're still going ahead with Brexit, despite every expert going telling them to delay and the EU themselves saying they're happy to extend the process so we can delay.  We've already spent more leaving than we did while we were in it and we're still not out - there's still not even a plan in place.  It's just madness all around and all for some sense of sovereignty or national pride, apparently.  I have never felt less 'patriotic' in my life.  They're not even taking the elderly in to hospital, they're all being left to die in the care homes, often without pain relief morphine stocks are low, apparently.  It's honestly just terrifying and incredibly sad in equal measure.

But - the positives - son and I will work at being as self sufficient and self contained as we can and we'll keep connecting with good folk as often as possible.  I'm not sure there's much else any of us can do at the minute? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 05, 2020, 04:34:51 PM
Quote
You don't stand in a burning building discussing the cause of the fire, you know?

Yes, I know. So many do know (a silver thread)....

To me I think it's telling that folks who won't wear masks often express their righteous appeals to FREEDOMMMM!

It's true that most people can remain safe from the virus.  It's also true that those who do wear masks and keep to social distancing, are more likely to save others' lives by doing so.

So, it's actually not just about my precious individual freedoms. It's about being part of the human community and caring what happens to us all. Not being okay with the suffering. Maybe the generation that once sacrificed for all, would be dismayed by the self-absorption of those who've never been asked (much less inspired) to be focused on ALL, than on MY PARTICULAR TRIBE.

It's hard to contemplate those ethical dividing lines, but the virus doesn't see them.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 06, 2020, 03:05:55 AM
That's what I've been grumbling about Hopsie - life for us at the moment isn't that different to normal because for us, the Covid situation is quite similar to our normal life - ongoing, daily health issues, not being able to socialise, not being able to go out to work, having to avoid certain situations and people and so on.  We are going out a bit less than usual now, but not an awful lot as we didn't go out much anyway, and when we did it was stressful - because son's health problems need to be managed all the time, every day.  They're not potentially fatal like Covid is but they're very real, very present and very damaging if not addressed and properly managed.  The way I see it is that the general population is being asked to live the way that millions of sick and disabled people already live, temporarily, and some are happily and willingly doing it, even though it's hard.  But some are really not happy about it and yes, are talking about their freedoms with no regard for the freedoms of people with pre-existing conditions who, quite honestly, are looking at possibly a year, maybe longer, of having to shield.  I'm adjusting my mindset to two years of living like this now.  I think it unlikely they'll have a vaccine any time soon and if they do, I'd still want it to be in general use for a good while before son has it as it won't be tested on people with an atypical neurological set up, for obvious reasons.  So I'd want more data and information on it before he has it in case there's any risk of it exacerbating his existing problems.  It's going to be a very long haul for us and at the end of it - we'll just go back to being skint and staying in all the time, unless there is a big shift in society's attitudes to everything and the focus moves to quality of life for all people, not just those who are fit, healthy and wealthy.  I'm trying to channel constructive attitudes and actions, I think - not Pollyanna positive because it annoys me, but useful things I can think, say or do to improve our situation and get us through this as best we can.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 06, 2020, 06:43:22 AM
Preach, Tupp!

I have been rattled by how silkily some have discussed "necessary deaths," elders sacrificing themselves for the good of the economy, etc. Oh, the irony. Are they pro-life or aren't they? Do all lives matter, or is it just that some lives don't?

Okay, time to get off my soapbox. I want to have a positive day too, and I'll remember your example.

I think you and son will be sitting on the beach, healthy, happy and wise -- not that terribly long from now. I do agree the vaccine will take that kind of time. I've accepted the idea of being 90% at home that long, too. There may be times when it's harder but I think the gifts are still within it. Especially if I begin to write seriously again. Some writers are desperate for this kind of quiet time; I don't want to waste it.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 07, 2020, 07:07:10 AM
Preach, Tupp!

I have been rattled by how silkily some have discussed "necessary deaths," elders sacrificing themselves for the good of the economy, etc. Oh, the irony. Are they pro-life or aren't they? Do all lives matter, or is it just that some lives don't?

Okay, time to get off my soapbox. I want to have a positive day too, and I'll remember your example.

I think you and son will be sitting on the beach, healthy, happy and wise -- not that terribly long from now. I do agree the vaccine will take that kind of time. I've accepted the idea of being 90% at home that long, too. There may be times when it's harder but I think the gifts are still within it. Especially if I begin to write seriously again. Some writers are desperate for this kind of quiet time; I don't want to waste it.

hugs
Hops

The time is an enormous gift for us as well, Hospie, and I am trying to use it wisely, even if wise use means feet up and watching a film.  I hope your writing becomes a new habit you can stick to :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 07, 2020, 12:17:24 PM
Well, bejesus.  Our supermarket delivery was short of a few things and our fresh stuff wasn't particularly fresh (same thing happened last week) so I had to go out and went to our local supermarket (which isn't the one we get a delivery from) to get some fresh bits for dinner.  Only needed a few items so didn't think much of it, to be honest.  It was truly scary.  Most people are ignoring social distancing, there are one way systems in place in the shop that aren't being adhered to, people are standing around in aisles chatting, wandering about talking on their phones, browsing through magazines, plants and holiday clothes.  There's no enforcement by the staff; they're making people queue two metres apart before they come in but that seems pointless to me if it's not enforced inside either.  For the first time in twenty odd years I found I wanted a cigarette when I came out.  Genuinely haven't wanted to smoke for a very long time but it was scary.  There's just no way this is being contained and I feel so bad for the sick and elderly who are going to suffer the most because of this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 07, 2020, 01:06:52 PM
Yikes, Tupp.

Fwiw, I decided at the beginning that I would stock up on CANNED fruits and CANNED vegetables mostly. Some frozen too. Dried beans. Rice. The basics. I can still get fresh now and then but mostly in sizes too large to make sense.

I have sooooo many friends who think they MUST have fresh veggies. Because they are gourmet cooks and those taste better. I like/prefer them too. But it's the whole, is this a want or a need? Like for you, frugality (and a parent who survived intense poverty in a family with 8 children through the Great Depression I) has been a teacher. Working in nutrition writing, I did learn that nutrient-wise, canned is nearly as good and frozen IS as good, even though the tastes are uninspiring. I've frozen liquid eggs/egg whites in cartons. I even know that if it were just to stay nourished, things like powdered milk and powdered whey protein exist, all of which can be stirred into oatmeal if nothing more. I ordered dehydrated blueberries too, early on.

I think a lot of people will have to give up the foodie thing. It's amazing what risks they'll take to ensure that their recipes and diets and everything remain the same. And I notice often that some will say, given a choice between a fresh something they love versus a canned or frozen version, oh I can't eat that (the latter). Can't?

M's a prime example, and I can't lecture with any gravitas (though I just tried) because I'm eating over there two or three times a week!

I just feel really sad that some people crowding into shops for inessential gourmet bits and bobs or a whole lot of other inessential things will sicken other people or get sick themselves. It's sad.

It's like watching this country as a huge organism that has a virus itself, a form of delusion, that literally affects the ability to reason. Heartbreaking.

Okay, off again. (I also realize how ridiculously fortunate I am. Food and housing are safe for me. Our local cases are on the rise but NOTHING yet like what the UK, especially in cities, is going through.)

Stay safe, Tupp. You are a practical soul. I hope you can manage to avoid shopping soon. I know it's a lot harder on you because it may be difficult to feed son if he's very particular or his diet demands it. I hope he will understand if you must start making substitutions he's not wild about.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 07, 2020, 02:13:46 PM
Unfortunately Hopsie it's not choices for son, his oral sensitivities and swallowing problems mean that an awful lot of foods (and many drinks as well) literally make him vomit so we're very restricted in that regard.  He mostly lives on eggs, potatoes and fish and not much else.  There's not much to be had in terms of tinned and frozen because it's what everybody's buying at the minute, plus we lack storage space (one cupboard and two drawers in the freezer - micro kitchen is not the word).  So it is literally getting in the bare essentials and not having much other choice because what I ordered didn't arrive and we've not got much else in.  A lot of people are having the same problem; I was just talking to a friend of mine whose son has similar problems and she's just chucked half their fresh food delivery in the bin because it's already going off (delivered last night).  It wouldn't be such an issue if other people took care but our esteemed PM is set to announce easing the lockdown on Monday so people are already behaving like that's happened, I think.  I'll try going first thing in the morning next time and see if that's quieter.  It's quiet late evening but of course not much in there because everyone else has been in all day :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 07, 2020, 02:20:03 PM
Damn. That is difficult, Tupp.
I knew his diet was particular but not the details.

I wonder if anybody at Dance Church might know of a way of getting access to a quarter of a co-op share, for regular eggs and potatoes?

It's probably less available where you are than here, surrounded by countryside.

Hope it goes more easily next time. It's a shame that for you for whom access is essential (no comparison to foodies or that I was rambling about) ... it's so difficult. And the minimal storage space you have is one more piece of the unfairness. Grrr.

Hugs and hope for help for you,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 07, 2020, 02:43:52 PM
Damn. That is difficult, Tupp.
I knew his diet was particular but not the details.

I wonder if anybody at Dance Church might know of a way of getting access to a quarter of a co-op share, for regular eggs and potatoes?

It's probably less available where you are than here, surrounded by countryside.

Hope it goes more easily next time. It's a shame that for you for whom access is essential (no comparison to foodies or that I was rambling about) ... it's so difficult. And the minimal storage space you have is one more piece of the unfairness. Grrr.

Hugs and hope for help for you,
Hops

Ah Dance Church is a two hour drive away so they're not close enough to do anything practical.  I think it's just the shortages in general making things difficult - delivery slots are very limited so we can only book one or two days before at most.  You're restricted to no more than 3 of each item (which makes stocking up harder) and you can only book once a week because they're so swamped at the moment (and this is for vulnerable customers, everyone else is being asked to do click and collect).  Then you only get told on the day if they haven't got something you ordered and I can't order anywhere else because nowhere's accepting new customers (again because it's so busy).  Then there are shortages in general - luckily I did have a bit of fish in the freezer as I'd bought some on special offer but there are shortages because the fishermen haven't been going out.  Potatoes aren't too bad, they just tend to have sold out by late evening.  Eggs we've been alright with, generally speaking, and then it's just bits for me.  I've got rice, pasta, lentils and that sort of thing but then it's having something to go with it as well.  It's just the logistics I think, just more complicated than it used to be and still haven't found a rhythm or a method that ticks all the boxes yet.  We'll get there eventually!  Still much more fortunate than a lot of people, I just wish the public information being given out was factually based and not constantly being played down.  The day we reached the giddy heights of highest death toll in Europe most of the papers printed a story about one of the science advisors being caught with his married lover on the front pages.  I know which of the two stories I think is more useful to people.  Anyway, I got enough in for dinner, we've had dinner now and son is upstairs with his belly full so we're all good :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 07, 2020, 04:36:20 PM
Aw, well done for getting the form filled in, CB, those things are such big humps in the road but once you're over them they often aren't as bad as you think they will be.  I hope getting the health insurance is relatively straight forward for you.

Yep, food shopping has been crazy here since all this started, there was no plan in place and nothing was organised.  We were lucky that we had enough in for a while when it first started and I managed to get things we needed at the corner shop (little place that had just enough in to cover us for a couple of days).  But people panic bought like mad so the shops were empty really fast and you couldn't get an online delivery slot anywhere for love nor money.  The government sent out lists of people with disabilities and health problems to all the supermarkets and luckily we were on one so we got organised with that one supermarket but it means you can't get a supermarket delivery from anywhere else.  There are local shops doing deliveries but with the minimum spend at each one I would have to order a heap of stuff I don't need just to get one or two bits that I do. I've very little storage space so lots in the freezer and cupboards is difficult and son has his food issues which means substitutes for him is just no.  Even down to squash (I don't know if you call it that there - you know the juice drink that you dilute?  That's what I mean); there's only one he can drink that doesn't have an adverse effect on him because they put so much crap in things like that.  I put his vitamin supplements in with the juice so if there's no juice he doesn't get his vits because he can't manage them without the juice taste to cover them up.  He will drink water but not as much and if he gets dehydrated it increases his risk of a seizure.  His meds I put in chocolate soya milk (intolerant to dairy and he can't take the meds off a spoon because the taste makes him vomit).  So it's just all those multiple things around something as simple as ordering a couple of bottles of something and then they send me manky bananas and wrinkly oranges as well along with a bit of limp broccoli lol, I know lots of people are going without and we're lucky to have what we've got but you'd think they'd have sorted things out better than this.  Someone did point out to me that it's a Bank Holiday here tomorrow so that would be one reason for the shop being busy this afternoon.  We're good now until next week anyway so we'll be home, home, home and going nowhere else :)

Good luck with the cleaning, bed bugs would give me the heebie geebies as well!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 08, 2020, 05:31:51 AM
Okay I may have found a solution to the veggie and son friendly products problem; the local farm shop can't deliver, but I can either email an order to them and they will box up for me to collect (twice a week) or I can go there and hand someone the list at the door, they'll get everything and bring it out to me.  It's a bit further to walk so means leaving son home on his own for longer which I'm a bit nervous about but equally I am nervous about the close proximity to others at the supermarket so I think the farm shop is a better bet.  Between that and the supermarket delivery I should be able to get everything we need, I think, without having to go to the supermarket again (which will be a blessed relief).  Will have to do some meal planning over the weekend and then get a list to them on Monday, I think.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 08, 2020, 10:22:58 AM
And life is going on like normal around here; cases are low - we're a very rural state of course; neighbors separated by miles in some cases - per testing, the negative cases outnumber the positive (and I know 4 were NYS campers that brought it with them) - and the recovered cases outnumber the positives. There have been 50-51 deaths out of 1.8 million people.

Governor has a common-sense plan for getting people back to work - phased in, so that things can be halted or reversed if there is a sudden spike in illnesses/pos tests. Hospitals and clinics are back to operation for the full range of issues again. But he didn't turn the state into ghost-towns in the first place. Our farmers, orchardists, construction trades were all considered "essential" - and so are the places that supply them.

Across the mountain, it's more urban - but even so, I saw plenty of people not masked. Even store employees. There's a higher percentage of masks there to be seen - but since a mask obliterates half the facial cues for interaction and communication, people are really "over" feeling unnecessarily isolated & divided.  It's very easy to misinterpret emotional information from just eyes above a mask.

Large urban areas are likely to be the last to finally get their caseloads down to a small, managable number. But that shouldn't prevent the people who AREN'T living in those areas to get back to production supplying the needs for those cities. And of course, as ever - people who want to continue to self-isolate, wear masks, maintain a bigger "personal space" - are always free to do so. There isn't the overarching public health concern about education, information or quarantine for healthy people instead of the smaller number of sick anymore. The state needs to withdraw back into it's regular boundaries and let individuals do as they like.

It's supposed to still be a free country, right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 08, 2020, 01:53:47 PM
And life is going on like normal around here; cases are low - we're a very rural state of course; neighbors separated by miles in some cases - per testing, the negative cases outnumber the positive (and I know 4 were NYS campers that brought it with them) - and the recovered cases outnumber the positives. There have been 50-51 deaths out of 1.8 million people.

Governor has a common-sense plan for getting people back to work - phased in, so that things can be halted or reversed if there is a sudden spike in illnesses/pos tests. Hospitals and clinics are back to operation for the full range of issues again. But he didn't turn the state into ghost-towns in the first place. Our farmers, orchardists, construction trades were all considered "essential" - and so are the places that supply them.

Across the mountain, it's more urban - but even so, I saw plenty of people not masked. Even store employees. There's a higher percentage of masks there to be seen - but since a mask obliterates half the facial cues for interaction and communication, people are really "over" feeling unnecessarily isolated & divided.  It's very easy to misinterpret emotional information from just eyes above a mask.

Large urban areas are likely to be the last to finally get their caseloads down to a small, managable number. But that shouldn't prevent the people who AREN'T living in those areas to get back to production supplying the needs for those cities. And of course, as ever - people who want to continue to self-isolate, wear masks, maintain a bigger "personal space" - are always free to do so. There isn't the overarching public health concern about education, information or quarantine for healthy people instead of the smaller number of sick anymore. The state needs to withdraw back into it's regular boundaries and let individuals do as they like.

It's supposed to still be a free country, right?

I wish we lived where you did, Skep, miles between neighbours would be so much better than the cramped conditions so many have to live in.  We're in a quieter part of the country where I am compared to somewhere like London, for example, but even here you're never far from anyone else and space is limited unless you're very wealthy and can buy a large plot (and that, of course makes no difference, when you go out because everyone else is out as well).

To be fair the masks are largely pointless in terms of protection; a medical friend explained it all to me and I can't remember the big words but basically masks need to be proper medical grade with appropriate filters in them to stop the germ particles entering the nose and mouth and they can also, apparently, get in through the eyes so you need eye cover to stop that problem (and visor type cover, sunglasses don't do the job!).  My worry about the masks is that they'll lull people into a false sense of security and make them think they're safe when they're not.  Additionally the healthy people versus sick people is a huge problem here, because of the healthy people passing it on to the sick people.  There's very limited testing (so no useful figures to establish how many people have it) and no contact tracing set up so anyone a positive person has been in contact with could also have picked it up, they pass it on and so on.  Our elderly, currently being applauded as it's VE Day (75 Years since we 'won the war') are currently dying in their beds in care homes without even anyone sitting by their side or sufficient pain relief because the morphine supplies are low and the care workers can't sit with them because of the risk of infection and the fact they're rushed off their feet looking after everyone else.  People like my son have been told they won't get a ventilator because they're not worth saving; no-one's really able to make a decent profit out of him because he can't work so he has no value and isn't worth the time or effort.  They've just announced that disabled people currently using ventilators as part of their disability need (not Covid related) won't be getting the filters they need for them because they're saving them for Covid patients.  These people will die without that support; again, they're disabled so their profit margins don't make them worth saving.

I think what I'd have liked to seen - and some say it's easy with hindsight although many countries had a couple of months warning this was coming so could have got plans in place - would have been to ring fence staff to look after the needs of the elderly and already sick and disabled.  So you've got those that need protecting being protected by teams who are all isolating and therefore reducing the risk of picking it up and passing it on.  Then let all the other fit and health people go out and do as they please.  They can all infect one another, get better quickly and then that herd immunity would have been in place and presumably would have kept everyone else safe as well.  I prefer that approach to the 'throw them under the bus' approach that's happening here, although it hasn't surprised me as the last ten years have been horrifying here for anyone needing help so I knew as soon as I heard what was going on that we'd be left to fend for ourselves. xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 08, 2020, 02:57:18 PM
Amber,
Treading gently I hope, but maybe it'll help us understand each other even though we see things through different lenses.

The thing about freedom, I believe, is that in a moral society individual freedoms are balanced with concern for the common good. That's why we require drivers' licenses, so 5-year-olds don't take off to drive to California to buy Lamborghinis. (Did you see that one? He was promptly rewarded for his "brave" behavior by being taken for a ride in a real Lamborghini. IOW, lauded on social media for acting "free" rather than scolded for endangering everyone on the highway.)

I think masks trigger similar yay-cowboy sentiments. My understanding about wearing cloth masks is that it's NOT as much to reduce one's own chances of getting the virus. It's part of our SOCIAL contract, because it prevents your breathing/spitty speech/cough/sneeze from infecting a vulnerable person near you. Because people without symptoms can be asymptomatic carriers for weeks without knowing it, you're just reducing the chances that you'll do harm. Possibly deadly.

I'm good with that. I'd rather live in a culture of civic responsibility and caring. No skin off my nose nor threads falling off my flag. I've been sickened by images of protesters howling humidly right into the faces of people (officers) who are trying to keep the peace or some (counter protesters) who want to peacefully point out a different perspective. Even coughing deliberately on them. It's hard to respect that.

Diff'rent strokes, but that's how I see it.

Hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CB123 on May 08, 2020, 06:24:27 PM
Hops,
making the transition from facebook culture to VESMB, I sometimes miss the "like" button.
Just a silent thumbs up.

CB
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 12, 2020, 03:36:54 AM
Well we are bracing for the second wave here now.  PM made a number of vague, confusing announcements on Sunday night that left some people thinking they could go back to work (or could force their employees into work) from Monday.  Government then said they meant Wednesday and released a 60 page lockdown easement plan that focuses a lot on guidance that will be released 'later in the week'.  The papers were full of pictures of people on crowded buses and trains.

The thing that frightens me the most is that a lot of people are taking and will take any relaxing of lockdown by the government as a sign it's safe now.  And it isn't.  We have the highest death toll in Europe and no idea how many people are walking around infected and not knowing it.  They are reducing financial support for people who've not been able to go into work so many will be forced to go back, however unsafe it is.  People are under the impression that cloth masks will keep them safe - they won't.  We're in an holiday area and there have been reports of many people turning up overnight to visit their second homes or have a few days by the seaside now.  No method in place to check the health status of any of them or meet their health care needs should they fall ill while they're here.

People are taking the fact that the NHS coped with the first wave as a good sign.  But the only reason they coped was because they cancelled everything else - every operation, every routine appointment, chemotherapy, rehab, everything.  They now have that massive backlog to work through and, with people flooding out the doors now, another wave of Covid patients to deal with, which will mean cancelling everything else again, and so it continues.  There's a massive lack of understanding, brought about by the government and the media and I'm so scared for so many people who will genuinely think it's safe now and it isn't.  I've told son we might well be in for a year and he took that pretty well.  I haven't mentioned it might be even longer.  I did manage to get my food delivery organised for Friday but we can only get one delivery a week so if it's short of anything we're going to be stuck again.  We're just hiding inside until we see how bad this next wave is going to be.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 12, 2020, 09:01:31 AM
Yesterday I was getting blue about the isolation and uncertainty, and wound up searching out political parody songs on YouTube.

I think Randy Rainbow is keeping me sane. Or sane enough.

Local cases are climbing but this is not second wave, it's still first wave. We are a smallish Atlantic city and have been behind the national curve or the big urban situations like New York's. One thing that works well locally is a well-educated population for the most part, a good deal of community engagement, and a significant number of dedicated social justice organizations and efforts.

I hear you grieving for your whole country, Tupp. Maybe when it gets overwhelming though, you might want to reduce that big national picture from your focus and do something simple, like make cookies (biscuits) and leave a package of them on the doorsteps either side of you. Or figure out how to make a wee kitchen-compost container so you'll have rich dirt for things you'd like to plant.

Mainly, a news break. You are absolutely doing the best you can in this strange time, and you've done an amazing job of it.

I remember when I lived in a tiny one-room efficiency as a grad student, and had one African violet in a pot. I doted on that plant and it became extraordinary. I also adopted an injured cat I found in an alley. He'd been hit by a car and had spinal damage, so when he ate he "pecked" his food from the bowl like a chicken. But he was deeply sweet and lovely, and purred up a storm.

I'd listen to the Steve Miller Band..."if you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with." Oh those hippie days! I guess I just thought of that tune because "if I can't be in the world I'd love, I'll love the one I'm in." No matter what.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 27, 2020, 02:44:02 PM
I've fallen down the COVID 19 rabbit hole for a while.  The part I'm trying to wrap my mind around is the blood clotting and why.  I think its nothing to do with B+ blood types, which oldest dd and I have.  I think it's the fact the virus moves through the easily infected lungs, enters the blood and infects the endothelial cells.  The endothelium is the lining of our blood vessels. It directs important functions of the vascular system like clotting and swelling. 

THIS, for me, is the most frightening aspect of the disease, along with the cytokine storm and inflammation that comes with.

Those with heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, and other health problems stressing the endothelium are at higher risk, which makes sense. 

My feeling around this virus is we'll find a way to be proactive around it..... instead of waiting to see who can fight it off and who can't, which seems to be our main strategy.  I understand we're gathering information so we can be responsive.  I'm not complaining, just writing out the moving parts that worry me most.

The links below are the recent rabbit holes.  Not asking for input or for anyone to read them.  They're my notes.  I'm not panicking.  I want information to make sense of what's happening around me.

Lighter




https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200424/blood-clots-are-another-dangerous-covid-19-mystery

https://www.pharmacytimes.com/ajax/study-suggests-blood-type-a-associated-with-higher-risk-of-covid-19

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/16/blood-clots-coronavirus-tpa/

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200521/Excessive-blood-clotting-and-stroke-in-COVID-19-patients.aspx

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 27, 2020, 03:20:34 PM
Lighter,
Makes perfect sense that you'd study the actual biological info, as much as we have available. Reliable sources, too. You have a very rational approach to how the brain reacts to and processes trauma, for example in your understandings of why EMDR has been so powerful. Good for you for using your innate curiosity and research drive to find out more about this damnable virus!

I'm tapped out on my appetite for more bio-detail at this point, and have decided that whatever the government, country or different groups do or don't do, my own strategy is pretty simple (and easy for me as a privileged person with food, shelter, and some social interaction covered). It's just one: AVOID.

Read a good article by an immunologist who said not to forget the reality of airborne transmission, especially when forced to be indoors with others. So that makes me feel more serious about mask-wearing. Not when friends come over and sit eight feet away, or in my car. But maybe I will start wearing it full-time on walks. Most of the time on my street close encounters are easy to avoid, but the occasional runner can mess that up. I'm not downtown or on crowded streets, though, so I have it easy. It's a broad street with yards easy to step into if needed.

It seems that the basic cloth masks don't protect US much, but do protect others from our own moist breath, much less coughs or sneezes. To avoid inhaling damp runner-breath, for example, it'd have to be the kind of respiratory mask (N95?) health professionals wear, and I'd rather walk in circles in my yard than try that. I also have an indoor exercise bike I have used mostly to hold damp laundry. !!!

I am just extremely grateful that everything I need can be safely delivered to my door, and easily disinfected once inside. It's been critical to ask myself firm questions about the difference between my WANTS and my NEEDS. So far, there's nothing except a prescription (drive-up, no-contact window) or getting gas that forces me to go anywhere so far (except for my knee x-ray but they managed distancing seriously there). Even my potting soil was safe drive-up pickup. But I don't buy food outside any more, or anything else. Haircut? Forget it. I can think of rationalizations for excursions, but unless they are absolutely no-contact safe pickup (I did that for free plants)...I'm skipping it all and hunkering down.

Probably until I'm 100. Might as well accept it, and look for happies in other ways.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 27, 2020, 10:42:14 PM
I gather information so I can do everything I can..... then put COVID 19 back down again for a while.

I don't want to be running around like a chicken with her head cut off if someone I know gets it.  I don't want to think it's this when it's really that.

Hops:  It's comforting to picture you safe and content in your little neighborhood.... crossing the street when you see joggers and bikers coming at you.  Keeping your safe distance in the yard with guests.  I can't wait to read about veggies served to guests from the garden.

CB:

I'm going to spend some time on the links you provided, then put this down for a while. Thanks for all the good information.  It helps to do all I can, then go back to what I was doing before.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 27, 2020, 10:56:54 PM
On the insanity side, this felt so true I didn't know whether to cry or laugh:

Shops: No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service
People: OK! No Problem.

Traffic Laws: Wear a seat belt in your car or get a ticket.
People: OK!  No Problem.

OSHA:  While working in certain places, you must wear safety goggles and safety gear.
People: OK! No Problem.

Airlines:  You must be seated and wear a seatbelt, with your tray table up when taking off.
People: OK! No Problem.

TSA:  Before getting on this plane, you need to remove your shoes, your belt, anything from your pockets, and go through this X-Ray machine.
People: OK! No Problem.

Local Government:  You need a permit to open carry a weapon.
People: OK! No Problem.

Grocery Stores and Other Businesses:  Please wear a mask while you are shopping to help reduce the risk of infecting others with a potentially deadly virus.
G☭P:  HOW DARE YOU TAKE AWAY MY PERSONAL LIBERTIES AND RIGHTS
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 28, 2020, 01:26:59 AM
They are interesting, CB.  Thank you so much!

OK.... I watched some Laura Ingram on Fox this evening.

She was very upset about the "left's" desire for her to wear a mask until the end of time. 

The end of time.  Hype much?

We're in the first chapter of a pandemic.   The US is sucking wind, not doing well globally with it and we're being asked BY OUR PRESIDENT to wear masks to protect others right NOW.  Maybe we can gain some protection ourselves as well.  All the better.  My mask has a splash guard that isn't particularly clear at this point, but it makes me FEEl safer. 

I don't get the crazy jump she's making to "the end of time."  It's inflammatory and untrue, assuming we have a vaccine at some point, and I believe we will. 

Assuming we have herd immunity at some point, and I believe we will.

It'll be interesting to see how Sweden comes out of this in a year, vs those Countries who shut down and closed up.

Lighter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on May 28, 2020, 01:56:06 AM

We are wearing masks because we care about the people around us. And it's no greater burden than all these other reasons.

CB

Yep no big deal. Easier than donating blood or money.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 28, 2020, 02:58:56 AM
Hops, the research I have read is that it is all about how much exposure you have. That's why its usually fine to be 6 feet apart with no mask, but not always. It's also why the cloth mask is probably doing pretty good to protect you too.

There are a lot of patterns for masks made with t shirts and those arent so good since knit material is very porous (that's why it's so comfortable!!) I wish people would get a little more direction about that.

The key seems to be multiple layer of cloth and well fitted. Lots of gaps around your nose for example is not going to be as comprehensive of coverage. I have a couple with ties, and the ones with elastic over the ears are definitely a better fit.

I've also looked at the research about whether it lets virus particles in--apparently when masks were tested after outside exposure, the outer layer, and first inner layer had virus particles, but the inside layer did not. So likely there is some protection for the wearer even from outside particles. Likewise, the infected person wearing a mask had particle penetration through the layers of mask, but not the outside. Plus six feet distancing and you are probably getting very little exposure.

You can also add a filter layer between the 2 layers in the form of even a coffee filter or paper towel, which will of course, need to be removed and replaced after each outing. I also read that some patterns are using a layer of chiffon which I thought was an elegant touch! Some are using wire or pipe cleaners across the bridge of the nose on the mask to make it more custom fitted.

From what my nurse kids tell me, the N95 is a little trickier for the average person to use. That's hospital grade and may be a little harder to breathe in, especially during exercise.

Anyway, I'm like you--staying in for the most part. My patio guests have been my kids who live in town but only from time to time, but the one who works in ICU isnt coming anywhere near me, so I havent seen the grandkids for a long time.

CB

CB, that is all pretty much what I've been told as well.  I've a couple of friends here who are paramedics and they've both said that you need hospital grade equipment for proper protection, which even medical staff here can't get, plus, as you say, it's cumbersome and just isn't something you can run around town doing your shopping in.  Their advice is stay home as much as possible, wash yourself and everything else frequently, keep your distance from people whenever you can and use a mask in an enclosed space.  I think even just covering your mouth with a scarf is supposed to reduce the transmission risk by up to 30%.  But staying in reduces it the most.  We are staying in.  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 28, 2020, 12:35:24 PM
I believe the army did some tests on mask materials and found microfiber - the heavier kind, like cleaning cloths - was the most effective outer layer for stopping droplets. It makes sense, to me, because each fiber on those cloths is super-absorbent and even grabs dust particles thoroughly.

I can't imagine how hot that mask would end up being though. I can barely make my quick run through the grocery with my multiple layer cotton mask as it is without the claustrophobia setting in - increasing my discomfort.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 28, 2020, 09:09:53 PM
Just watched a clarifying explanation from Dr. Michael Osterholm (head of infectious disease, U. of Minn.). Basic masks somewhat reduce risk of transmission (either way) but are NEGLIGIBLE in their protection when compared to distancing. He says people are fastening onto the idea that because masks are tangible, we're safe if we wear one. BUT: Six feet isn't enough, and distancing is the Number One Measure to reduce risk. He didn't specify how much is safe, but I'm going 8' even outdoors. He said outdoors, because movement of air clears virus particles faster, is the safest place anyone can be (as long as you're DISTANT from others).

(IOW, not being in proximity to other people is IT.) He says we don't know because this is a strange new virus, whether:

1) It will come in one wave that's still happening all over, in different strengths in different areas of the globe, and eventually go away.
2) It will remain simmering in our species until we eventually have either: 1) immunity in 60%-70% of the population, OR 2) an effective vaccine created (hopefully 18 months but that's unknown) and distributed (???)
3) It will appear gone for several months (say, most of the summer) and people will tell themselves, YAY! Back to "normal!" and then if it behaves like flu (which is unknown but feared by scientists) then a second wave, as happened in 1918, will arrive with a vengeance more deadly than the first wave.

He says we DON'T KNOW which will happen and we need to accept not knowing. Science doesn't know and your cousin can't guess and political tilts have nothing to do with anything. It is deadly. It is unknown. It is new. Science is after it. There IS hope but no room for stupidity.

Yes, wear a mask but remember they leak around the edges. He said if there are two in a room, even six feet apart, and one is infected, s/he will AEROSOLIZE virus particles just by breathing that can infect you in two minutes. Mask and all. If both of us are wearing masks, we've got maybe four minutes. Better yet: face facts and stay home and stop all non-essential excursions.

He wasn't addressing the economy or answers to that, which governments have to address. He wasn't being asked to because he's just explaining the biology of it.

This helped me. I feel clearer about it. Don't relax with a mask on, be MORE vigilant about who passes me on the street (I'm thinking of a sign I tape onto the back of my shirt saying DISTANCE PLEASE. Not kidding.) And tap into inner resources and stay home indefinitely. M and I are on the same page and I can at least go there, and the few individuals who come to my back yard are ready to do distancing and disinfection, and nobody is in my house except occasionally M.

Not fun to read but I was grateful for his detail.

hugs
hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CB123 on May 28, 2020, 10:58:15 PM
He's a heavy hitter, too, Hops--wrote a book some years back about preparing for an upcoming pandemic. Has some impressive credentials academically.

Thanks for sharing.

CB
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 29, 2020, 09:25:49 AM
(If anybody has HULU, he was on The View two days ago.)
Thanks, CB.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 29, 2020, 09:45:58 AM
Tupp:

I'm glad the news you might be sheltering in place for a year didn't upset ds.

You're right.  Regular medical procedures have been cut back or stopped in order to cope with COVID 19 patients.   A second wave, with regular patients in the middle of it, would be terrible.   This isn't a good scenario in any case.

On a brighter note..... and bc I'm babbling with anxiety.....The family, staying at my dad's farm, continue to receive free cancer treatment for their son in Atlanta every Friday.  There were no cancellations for his treatment.    Across the street from that hospital is the hospital I had both girls at.  I just looked up their website and see the hospital is up and running, pretty standard.... women's center still taking expectant and delivering mothers and treating the infants.  Only 1 visitor allowed to see the new babies for one hour a day in NICU.  That goes to 4 hours when they're training the visitor to care for the infant.  The mothers can have only one visitor... the same visitor, through their stay, unless they're under 18yo.  Then they can have 2.

Any suspected COVID 19 patients or confirmed cases have suspended visitation.  In Mid March the patients had the choice to have a visitor IN their hospital room, on lockdown, with them.  I guess that's not the case now.   

The In Patient, OUt patient and infusion centers are suspending visitations.  No one is allowed to just show up at the emergency room... they have to call their doctor or the hotline number.   There are 5 hospitals in that group... all over the Country.
 
The rule for visiting COVID patients or suspected COVID patients is a big NOPE.  No visitors whatsoever. 

We're experiencing COVID in retirement homes in my County recently... 2 facilities the last time I checked... one is a few minutes from where I live.  The healthcare workers tested positive and gave it to the residents.... it's assumed .

Our County has 260 confirmed COVID cases.  170 recovered.  4 deaths.  The Latino community is experiencing 5 times higher numbers.   

2 days ago we had "a small number" of workers at the main hospital test positive for COVID 19.  The numbers are spiking back up and I don't see things getting better for a while. 

I could wish things were different.  That everyone would wear safety gear and look after each other.  Laura Ingram was upset about the patient tracing too.  WTH?  How will we ever get a handle on this if people are against tracing those who have the virus and those who've been exposed? 

I'm frustrated with the response here too, Tupp. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 29, 2020, 10:52:22 AM
If anyone is interested in giving blood, they're experiencing shortages, as you can imagine.

The Blood Connection was checking temps outside the door.  Everyone had to have masks.. the tech said the entire County is supposed to be wearing masks, but I don't know about that. Oldest DD and I were the only donors, besides the guy who was finishing up as we entered, so the place was very empty. 

Everyone is tested for COVID antibodies, unless they decline.  I'll know the results in 10 days or so.   My sister believes we likely had it in January also after passing through Fort Lauderdale airport. 

The facility was large and would have been all but empty had we moved through the process more efficiently than we did. 

I felt safe and will donate again.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 29, 2020, 11:00:38 AM
Hops - that's what I've been saying; the conclusion I came to also: right now, NO ONE "KNOWS" that much about this virus. Been chatting with an ER doc in Iowa, who didn't have many positive tests until the last week - 10 days - and now, it's a lot more critical cases - including healthy younger people. There's a meat-packing plant in his county; this is a small rural hospital. I keep seeing a stat, that 42% of deaths are nursing home related - but who knows how they're tracking that data? MI isn't even reporting nursing home cases to CDC.

So, I'm working on the theory that close, continued contact with lots of people - increases the probability of spread. It's just common sense, right?

I already have the habit of staying away from groups of people. So that doesn't bother me at all. I am not in the habit of gallivanting around "just to find something to do". Even shopping, I've always maintained a force field of "personal space" around myself, that is bigger than most people's - and I tend to be overly patient/polite and wait my turn, rather than squeeze in to pick something off a shelf quick. Hol & S, tend to go hiking or swimming in isolated places... and while she does go over the mtn, more than I do - they're masked, and she only does what she HAS to do. So, she's been conscious about bringing something home. Since early on, as S was working event centers in DC.

Buck is probably more conscientious than I am - I will go do what I need to do and not exactly "linger", but then that's my style already - B's immune system is pretty strong in the first place, even with the hospital infection - but he's only now feeling normally healthy and capable after 3 years. Not taking any chances.

I think we can only wait & see - at this point - what actually happens and in the meantime, keep on doing what we do to keep ourselves healthy (which has been the same for every virus since the Spanish Flu; and should've been SOP in the general population).

Our hospitals here are doing regular care and surgeries again. There are distancing rules, of course... but people are coping.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 29, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
((((Lighter)))), I understand the anxiety. Share it. Happy you spend so much time outdoors and wish I would.

My main takeaway from the interview was that DISTANCING is more important than safety gear for regular folks.

Essential front-liners or those in health care situations have to depend first on gear. Non-medical-professionals should depend first on distancing.

My two cents,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 30, 2020, 12:10:40 PM
Well you guys are all doing the right thing; unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that there are just too many stupid people in England.  Although we are officially still in lockdown, the beaches are packed, buses and trains are full, one family was stopped doing a 440 mile round trip to go to the beach.  Petrol stations and food shops were supposed to be open for essential supplies only but it's abundantly clear that many are ignoring that and just doing what they like.  The number of recorded deaths today is lower than it has been, which is good, but the infection rate is up, hospital admissions are up, three hospitals have closed their doors to any other patients because they've no more capacity for any incident at all and we are at .9 where I live.  If we get to 1 we are back to epidemic level again and if we go over 1 we are in to NHS being overwhelmed level.  The number of ambulances going by is up; you can hear the sirens.

I understand, completely, loneliness, isolation, not being able to go to work, not having enough money, not being able to go out, see friends and family, all of those things, I truly do.  I can understand the fear and worry of your business going under or of losing your job.  I get that for a lot of people catching this will be no worse than flu and they'll be alright after a couple of weeks.

What I don't understand is no regard for the people who are having to work through this and exposing themselves to risk every day, no heed given to the 63,000 excess deaths recorded in the last three months, 10,000 people dying in care homes who didn't even have adequate pain relief, and absolutely no regard for the estimated 6 million people who are vulnerable and are looking at staying inside for the rest of this year and possibly longer.  All because people want to sit on a beach.

Anyway, son and I are staying in.  We won't be doing our daily walks for a while again now; I want to see how bad the infection rate gets again and what happens next.  I have been stocking up on food, fortunately, and have a food order coming tomorrow and will put my order for the following week in straight after that.  So frustrating when we've been in lockdown for so long anyway, a few more weeks could have really kicked this into place.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 31, 2020, 01:58:17 AM
Keep yourself and your son safe, Tupp.   Do what you need to do.

Not everyone will agree on what the right thing to do is.

We're going to have to accept that.  We're going to have to find a way to make peace with it.

We have a County mandate on masks here, but it won't be enforced.

The State isn't using the word mandate.  They're just recommending we use them.

No consequences.  No enforcement.  I don't understand it either.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 31, 2020, 03:48:16 AM
I'm having to resist the urge to rescue others, Lighter.  My first instinct is always to do what I can to help, and at the moment that's collating evidence, putting it together and posting it online, in the hope that other people will take heed.  But I've resisted doing it.  I think the truth is, some people just don't want to know.  They're so desperate to 'do their thing' that they don't care who or what else might become damaged by that.  I just have to accept that, keep myself and son inside, keep the both of us up to speed on facts, not government nonsense and work on keeping us both as fit and healthy as possible, indoors.

Fortunately son is a science buff and is reading information that scientists and doctors are putting out there so he's following them rather than government information.  It's interesting to me that a young adult with intellectual disabilities can do that, when many people without those disabilities can't.

I can only think your government and ours are going for herd immunity, although I have read there's no evidence yet that catching the virus once will stop you getting it again - which would make herd immunity unlikely anyway.  We're staying in, regardless.  At least we have a roof over our heads and the food deliveries seem to be going okay again now.  Hope that you're all doing okay xx xx xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on May 31, 2020, 06:26:06 AM
CB, I'm so sorry you don't have a safe place nearby where you could take in nature, trees and flowers. There's no pleasant park you could tote a camp chair to, or sit with a book? Is there any road with sidewalks nice enough to walk on? I wish you could come wander my back yard. You're being conscious and productive and sane, and that's saying a lot compared to a lot of people.

Tupp, your descriptions of what's happening in England are so vivid. You are born to blog, ime. That might be an engaging way to write, share and create, too. Ever thought about it? You can create different section themes and plug in posts about whatever you feel like writing about on any given day: Life, Disability, Nature, Cats, Autism, Parenting, Culture, Community, Home, Frugality, Covid-19, whatever. Just anything that interests you. There are lots of free blog sites with free design template and you can learn how to use one in half a day.

Amber, sounds like your nature is pretty well-suited to isolation and that you've been really far-sighted in your survival and food production plans. I think you're riding it out in a really good place. If folks in town can keep their distance in businesses and most stuff can be delivered, you'll likely all do okay. As long as no asymptomatic carrier comes to visit. I could use time on a mountain soon, M and I have talked about driving to that hidden overlook I showed him one day just to stare at the valley and get perspective back.

Stay safe, everybody.
I wonder how Betty Anne is doing....

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 04, 2020, 09:57:22 AM
Oh, I do Hops! There's a nice common area behind my apartment with a cement path that I walk from time to time. Our weather is fast turning to summer here in the south so I dont go out consistently. Also my patio (ground floor) is right off the common area as well.

I tend to stay on the other side of the glass door because I have little animals that actually come up on the porch as long as there is no trace of me. I spent a half hour this morning watching the bunny who was eating while lying on his tummy in the cool grass with his stubby little legs stretched out behind him. I often get to see the squirrels very close, and to check mama's progress. One day she was close I could see the babies moving in her tummy.

It's lovely here. I probably should go out more but ....inertia!

CB

Aw, bunnies and squirrels, CB!  How cute!  They are so lovely.  Do you follow 'Mr Lumpy and Friends' on Facebook?  If not, you might like it, this lady is visited by badgers, foxes, squirrels and a few other things and she feeds them all and photographs them from behind her patio door.  It's really lovely.

I have turned into the mad bird feeder lady and the tree outside our house has several feeders and a home made water feeder as well.  I had a delivery from the local pet shop yesterday so I filled everything up this morning and the tree is just full of birds now.  So cute.  And then a ring of cats sitting at the base of the tree hoping the birds will fall out.  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CB123 on June 04, 2020, 01:15:44 PM
Tupp!
What a fun page! Thanks for the tip--I am really going to enjoy it.

CB
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 04, 2020, 02:27:47 PM
Lighter, you were right in your research on blood type. Just saw this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/health/coronavirus-blood-type-genetics.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/health/coronavirus-blood-type-genetics.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)

Mine's A-positive, so all the more reason to stay home until there are zero new cases in our area for two weeks. Could be a loooooong time so that's what I'm intentionally trying to accept and adapt my mind to.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on June 04, 2020, 09:41:27 PM
Find your comfort level, Hops... and get comfortable.

I'm so enjoying  my yard right now. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 05, 2020, 11:58:54 AM
R rate is back up to 1 in our area.  We have gone from being one of the lowest in the country to being one of the highest for new infections and I'm assuming that is because of all the people from out of the area who've been visiting the beaches after our twatting Prime Minister relaxed the lockdown.  I can't get my head around it - surely another four weeks would be preferable to this virus hanging around forever more?  It dies off if there aren't enough people to pass it around, as I understand it, so surely another four weeks - given that the numbers were dropping - would have knocked it on the head?

I feel so frustrated that there's a huge focus on people getting back to normal, but no focus at all on all the at risk people who won't be able to get back to normal all the time it's still out there.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 05, 2020, 12:22:43 PM
I hear you, ((((Tupp)))).
It is very frustrating.

I think the only way people can win over all this by doing whatever thing helps us accept that we can't help what other people do or don't do, and as difficult and unfair as it is, making peace with what we can control and what we can't, spares us suffering.

Maybe that's where the hope and serenity are...radical acceptance. We just can't fight what we can't control. To me, it doesn't mean going passive or giving up or not advocating or whatever we individually can contribute to correct what we find wrong or ill-informed. It doesn't mean not objecting. It just means not sacrificing our mental health in the process--because the causes of these frustrations will be with us, each and all, for a looooong time. I wish it weren't so but these are part of human behavior (denial and short-sightedness) and reality is my ally.

Big smooshy hugs,
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 05, 2020, 02:35:56 PM
I hear you, ((((Tupp)))).
It is very frustrating.

I think the only way people can win over all this by doing whatever thing helps us accept that we can't help what other people do or don't do, and as difficult and unfair as it is, making peace with what we can control and what we can't, spares us suffering.

Maybe that's where the hope and serenity are...radical acceptance. We just can't fight what we can't control. To me, it doesn't mean going passive or giving up or not advocating or whatever we individually can contribute to correct what we find wrong or ill-informed. It doesn't mean not objecting. It just means not sacrificing our mental health in the process--because the causes of these frustrations will be with us, each and all, for a looooong time. I wish it weren't so but these are part of human behavior (denial and short-sightedness) and reality is my ally.

Big smooshy hugs,
Hops

I agree Hopsie, I feel the most rebellious thing you can do right now is stay at home, keep yourself as fit and healthy as possible and not become one of their herd immunity statistics!  We're happy inside, very grateful for deliveries, limiting news/social media/outside awfulness and just trying to get on with things.  We both feel healthier from all the rest, it's just keeping that balance between resting and vegetating :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 08, 2020, 04:48:27 AM
Well there are slightly mixed messages coming through here.  The death rate is down, which can only be a good thing.  Scotland and Northern Ireland have both reported no deaths and only a small number of people with the virus in hospital.  Twitter doctors and medical people are tweeting that hospital admissions are up and that things are quite bad, but I don't know anyone now who is affected or knows someone who is affected whereas a few weeks ago almost everyone I knew had story to tell.  They started relaxing the lockdown about four weeks ago - people were going back to work, using public transport, there were VE Day parties, people were going to beaches and so on.  There doesn't seem to be huge second wave yet.  We have had multiple protests over the last few days but if the crowds of people on the beaches didn't spark another wave of infections then I'm hoping that the protests won't, either.  So I'm feeling cautiously optomistic.  We'll have to wait and see what happens but if the worst of it is behind us I will feel very relieved.  I don't particularly miss anything - the only thing I'm not doing now that I did before was sitting on buses half the day to drop son off and pick him up again.  But it would be nice not to feel fearful of going for a walk or popping to the shop.  Anyway, we will see xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 08, 2020, 07:27:22 AM
We (city/county combined) had 49 new cases yesterday, whereas a few days ago it was under 10.

I will remain very cautious until there are no new cases for several months, not weeks or days. And I do believe a major second wave is likely beginning in fall. I sometimes check daily cases (I'm in the area of a hotspot--our county was just mentioned on national news as one, though the city is so far less so), I ain't relaxing vigilance for a long time. I'll continue to depend on deliveries and stay out of stores. I miss community, especially happy crowds downtown on a summer evening, etc. Not enough to risk it but I miss it. For me the brightest moments now are safely distancing with one friend at a time on the patio. Or rarely, up to four including myself spaced out 8 feet. It's work to arrange but such a relief to just talk and celebrate looking at each other's faces. Winter's isolation will be tough. But like this, that too will pass.

I periodically read another shattering story about what having the virus is like even for people far younger than I, and what the long-term aftermath can be even if you survive it. Puts some tin in my spine.

WHO sez:
The incubation period for COVID-19, which is the time between exposure to the virus (becoming infected) and symptom onset, is on average 5-6 days, however can be up to 14 days. During this period, also known as the “pre-symptomatic” period, some infected persons can be contagious. Therefore, transmission from a pre-symptomatic case can occur before symptom onset.

Air hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 08, 2020, 08:44:09 AM
((((CB))))

Present for ya:

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&channel=mac_bm&source=hp&ei=XDLeXu-lKa6EytMPgLankAE&q=simple+DIY+ice+cream&oq=simple+DIY+ice+cream&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB46BQgAELEDOgUIABCDAToICAAQFhAKEB5QiwdYvTBg-TJoAXAAeACAAbMBiAG4CpIBBDIwLjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjvw9qfn_LpAhUugnIEHQDbCRIQ4dUDCAw&uact=5
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CB123 on June 08, 2020, 09:00:11 AM
Whaaaat????
Hops, it looks delicious! Have you tried it?

CB
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 08, 2020, 10:07:17 AM
Nope!
I just Google everything.

I
mean
everything.

Gotta go chop beets, making borscht...

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 08, 2020, 11:18:38 AM
We (city/county combined) had 49 new cases yesterday, whereas a few days ago it was under 10.

I will remain very cautious until there are no new cases for several months, not weeks or days. And I do believe a major second wave is likely beginning in fall. I sometimes check daily cases (I'm in the area of a hotspot--our county was just mentioned on national news as one, though the city is so far less so), I ain't relaxing vigilance for a long time. I'll continue to depend on deliveries and stay out of stores. I miss community, especially happy crowds downtown on a summer evening, etc. Not enough to risk it but I miss it. For me the brightest moments now are safely distancing with one friend at a time on the patio. Or rarely, up to four including myself spaced out 8 feet. It's work to arrange but such a relief to just talk and celebrate looking at each other's faces. Winter's isolation will be tough. But like this, that too will pass.

I periodically read another shattering story about what having the virus is like even for people far younger than I, and what the long-term aftermath can be even if you survive it. Puts some tin in my spine.

WHO sez:
The incubation period for COVID-19, which is the time between exposure to the virus (becoming infected) and symptom onset, is on average 5-6 days, however can be up to 14 days. During this period, also known as the “pre-symptomatic” period, some infected persons can be contagious. Therefore, transmission from a pre-symptomatic case can occur before symptom onset.

Air hugs,
Hops

It is a worry if the case numbers are going up, Hops.  We will be continuing to stay in, with the exception of the library if that opens next month (if the numbers are still going down).  I have been reading that even mild Covid is knocking fit and healthy people for six for many weeks/months afterwards and that those who are in ICU but then recover seem to be left with ongoing lung problems.  They do have a couple of experts following progress on recovery and long term effects; I'm finding the doctors on Twitter very useful at the moment.  And yes, the passing it on when not showing symptoms is a big worry, along with people who have symptoms but simply can't afford to take time off work.  They're stopping the furlough scheme here soon so a lot of people will be going back to work regardless and many places don't pay sick pay so some will work even if they have symptoms.  So I've not got the bunting out yet but I am heartened that the people I know who work for the ambulance service and those with kids frequently in hospital are reporting fewer incidents.  I have an overwhelming urge to be a mad lady and hug everyone I see once it's safe to do so.  And I know a lot of people who are ignoring government advice and staying in, even though they're being told they don't have to now xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 08, 2020, 11:22:21 AM
Our cases here were definitely dropping--below 100 new cases a day in the county where I live. Then the governor of the state started opening businesses at a fast clip. When he opened bars at 25% capacity only and with social distancing(yeah, right)and said that face masks were recommended but would not be enforced, I thought well here we go.

All last week our new cases were above 250 per day and on one day was almost 300. So we aren't done yet. Bad news is, I dont know what it would take to close everything down again. There was a LOT of anger about closed hair salons, etc. and there were people who just refused to stay closed with no consequences, so I expect they will decide to just let it run its course. Not looking forward to this.

Of course, most flus do dissipate in the summer for unknown reasons, so maybe the lower hospitalizations mean it will be milder? I dont know. They have really changed the way they disclose the numbers to the public. There's no way to easily track it anymore on the government sites. We have had daily marches all week so I dont even know what it will look like, but I'm not going out in it. I'm grateful that my son is working from home and isnt bringing it in.

I'm with you, Hops. I'm sticking with deliveries for the foreseeable future. I agree that we will probably have a second wave in the fall. I am dreading that because everyone is getting so weary of the isolation already. It just makes sense that it would do what flu historically has done. I feel like I can get almost anything I need by delivery, but I do miss ice cream. No point in trying to get that in 95 degree weather!

CB

That is a worry that cases are that high again CB, they really haven't handled this well at all.  New Zealand have declared themselves Covid free now - imagine having someone that decisive and caring in charge?  How differently this could have all been handled if all leaders were like Jacinda Ardern.

Our supermarket has a freezer in the delivery van for icecream so we are stocked up :) I hope you can get some soon! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 09, 2020, 02:18:29 PM
Well the death rate has jumped again and quite sharply too which is a bit of a worry.  Still no sign of leadership and the rampant racism sweeping through the country is really frightening.  People openly shouting racist remarks in the street, torrents of racial abuse on Twitter, a black broadcaster was asked on a live show today why she doesn't leave if she doesn't like it (by a white broadcaster who is clearly so sure of his position that he isn't concerned about saying it on live telly!).  I've honestly never seen people being so openly racist and it really scares me.

In other news, though, the library are starting a click and collect service.  You select what you want online and they have it ready at the door for you so completely contact free.  Brilliant idea and it means I don't have to walk behind son sanitising everything he goes near which is what I thought I'd have to do once they opened again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 16, 2020, 05:56:59 AM
Death rate down again now which is good but it's still much higher than it would usually be for this time of year.  It's weird how your brain gets used to things - if I'd read six months ago that 882 more people had died in the last week than would usually at this time of year I'd have felt devastated; now it feels almost unreal?  The number has reduced and that was the bit I focused on.  Self preservation, perhaps?  We are continuing to stay in, though xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 16, 2020, 09:39:30 AM
It is disturbing and also fascinating, in a creepy way, that the dual infections of the pandemic virus and also the racism virus are exploding to the surface at the same time. I think amazing histories will be written about this time.

Coronavirus is exposed for its reality as people sicken and die. Terrible price to pay for ignorance and resistance to science, but it is a real price and in the aftermath, or when a new threat to public health is announced, the chances of compliance to recommendations might be increased.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: mudpuppy on June 16, 2020, 08:15:15 PM
Let's follow the science;
Worldwide daily deaths rose rapidly in March and then peaked in early to mid April and have declined steadily and without interruption since then.
At the same time new cases also ramped up quickly in March and then leveled off in early April and have increased at a similar rate to the decline in deaths. Declining deaths with rising cases means, necessarily, a declining death rate.
That is over two months of the death rate steadily declining worldwide. The latest CDC numbers indicate an overall infection fatality rate in the US of .26% and still declining. Reportedly a typical flu IFR is .1%. If it continues to decline it may very well end up with an IFR at or below the flu's.
Some studies indicate up to 60% of unexposed people are already immune or at least resistant to infection because they have limited immunity from the antibodies to similar coronaviruses.
In the US ~20 people under 15 years old have died of it. That is a considerably lower death rate than an ordinary flu.
Neil Ferguson, the guy at Imperial College who came up with the faulty model so many governments relied on, himself said at least 60% of the people who would die from it were not going to live out the year anyway.
Over 40% of US deaths were in nursing homes even though less than 1% of the population live in nursing homes . This was considerably exacerbated by several governors forcing nursing homes to take in infected patients who were discharged from hospitals.
We were told we had to be locked down to "flatten the curve". Honest people admitted this was only to reduce hospital loads and that it would not significantly reduce cases, but merely spread them out over time. Logically that meant we would have a slow decline in cases and possibly even uptrends as we stretched out the curve. Now when that is occurring in those places like CA and TX where the curve was flattened we're being told we need another lockdown even though there is no significant hospital pressure.
In those states which did not successfully flatten the curve like NY and NJ their cases went through the roof and have declined precipitously and are bumping along the bottom because the wave crested high and fast rather than low and slow. In the end there is little evidence either way significantly reduces overall cases or deaths.
Some goofs talk about shutting the world down until a vaccine is produced. No coronavirus has ever had a successful vaccine developed for it. SARS 1 was in 2003-4 and had a fatality rate of 10%. Sixteen years later there is still no vaccine for it. MERS had a fatality rate of ~35%. Eight years later; no vaccine.

The simple fact is this disease, once it escaped China, which occurred partly because while China shut down internal travel from Wuhan they allowed international travel from there for a month, it was probably ultimately unstoppable and will eventually become ubiquitous at least for a time. It may eventually fade away but with the millions of carriers that were headed to Italy, New York and all over the rest of the world, whether Chinese or tourists returning to their home country guaranteed it would eventually become endemic worldwide.
It is preposterous to think anyone could track and trace and quarantine the hundreds of millions of people who have already either had it or been around someone who has. And if you could you would only slow it down temporarily and meanwhile reduce our standard of living to the stone age, when diseases killed pretty much everyone the sabre toothed tigers didn't eat.
  How many lives will be lost and ruined worldwide due to the depression the overreaction caused? They can't be tidily summed up in quasi accurate death counts like Covid deaths but it is almost certain that the "cure" was worse than the disease.

The only sensible thing to have done, which many of us said from the start, was to truly quarantine and protect the most vulnerable while allowing those for whom it is no more dangerous than a bad flu to continue to live their lives and get the inevitable over with. The trillions in wealth destroyed was for nothing. And those trillions don't just buy iphones and video games. They buy food for starving people in destitute countries and vaccines and treatment for diseases that kill thousands and millions every year like TB and malaria, including and especially kids, not 90 year olds about ready to check out anyway.
In the end all of the  chicken little, safety at any cost foolishness probably made no significant change in the long term pervasiveness and toll of Covid-19 but did cause vast damage to the lives of billions and may very well end up costing not only trillions in lost wealth but more and younger healthier people their lives while saving almost no one from the Covid bug itself.
Lots of virtue got signalled by lots of big shot government dopes and nerdy little billionaires, but for the rest of us it was a lose/lose.

mud
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 16, 2020, 09:34:08 PM
Hi Mud--
Thoughtful analysis, with lots of logic.

Only part that trips me up is:
quarantine and protect the most vulnerable while allowing those for whom it is no more dangerous than a bad flu

It's not that predictable who's in danger, because so many underlying conditions go undiagnosed. There are too many severely ill patients in their 30s or 40s for age-based assumptions to be safe ones, imo, although no question older folks are in greater danger. Articles I've read about surviving this disease when it's not just a "bad flu" are pretty compelling. Chronic severe lung damage and other aftermaths have their costs too. To each their own concern.

It's a tough call--personally, economically, morally. The biological and social pull of humans getting together will mean it continues to bounce through populations in one wave or two (or who knows) and life may never be exactly as it was.

Probably the most important thing will be what we need anyway for a host of other reasons--to look for ways to help each other, heal our communities not just medically but socially--and carry on. Pointing fingers will go on forever, because humans, but I hope that eventually becomes less exciting than finding ways to help each other. Maybe positive changes in consumption, lifestyle and economic priorities will happen. Maybe explosions in creativity and invention, eco-friendlier agribusiness, health and lifestyle habits, community support, and other humane trends will ensue.

It's good to hear you. Hope you've been well, and those you love. Start a Mud thread!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on June 18, 2020, 03:42:49 PM
So I heard today was the first day of a local women's low-end retailer opening up. Neighbor told me they saw a LONG line of women in queue to get in.

Personally I wish we could have a revolution where people bartered in the arts, literature, community, other things beyond filling boredom with shopping for a prize within racks and racks of junk.

I can only do my best to live my life and promote what I can I guess, i don't even do a great job of promoting culture in my own small bubble. I mean I do a little bit, not sure that everybody appreciates it. I will not give up in this endeavor!
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2020, 05:32:57 PM
Preach!

Quote
I wish we could have a revolution where people bartered in the arts, literature, community, other things beyond filling boredom with shopping for a prize within racks and racks of junk.


Sign me up. Me too.

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 21, 2020, 06:43:49 AM
So I heard today was the first day of a local women's low-end retailer opening up. Neighbor told me they saw a LONG line of women in queue to get in.

Personally I wish we could have a revolution where people bartered in the arts, literature, community, other things beyond filling boredom with shopping for a prize within racks and racks of junk.

I can only do my best to live my life and promote what I can I guess, i don't even do a great job of promoting culture in my own small bubble. I mean I do a little bit, not sure that everybody appreciates it. I will not give up in this endeavor!

Gosh I like the sound of that, G.  There are odd little things here that really make me smile, like old phoneboxes that have been turned into little community libraries (you just grab any book you fancy and return when you've finished reading it), and racks of coats in the library that you can just help yourself to if you're cold.  I find shopping pretty unfulfilling.  I do like being able to buy things that are hand made or fair trade or something like that as a little reminder of a nice day out maybe but the thought of queuing up to buy clothes or something just doesn't interest me.  I love the idea of bartering or sharing time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 22, 2020, 03:20:25 AM
We're in a weird kind of parallel universe here.  The alert level has been dropped, despite the fact we've not got to the stage you're supposed to be at to drop the alert level.  It's definitely a business decision rather than a health based one.

Masks are advised but only mandated on public transport.  I do not feel comfortable taking son to public places where others aren't wearing a mask.  It seems to have been well established now that wearing masks is more about protecting others than protecting yourself so son wearing a mask isn't going to do much for him if others aren't so we'll still be staying in as much as possible.

The student nurses who dropped everything they were doing to join the Covid fight have now been told they won't have their contracts honoured because they're no longer needed.  People are horrified and I've no idea why; this government treats anyone who isn't super rich with absolute contempt and I just don't understand why people don't see that.  There's also no evidence that herd immunity works as there's no evidence yet that having this once stops people having it again, yet that's the approach we're taking here.

So we're in this weird kind of limbo where things are opening up but without sufficient measures in place to really try to get on top of this which means life for millions of us will continue indoors, without support (even the most vulnerable who were ordered to stay in and had food parcels delivered are having their support withdrawn and will have to fend for themselves if they don't have friends or neighbours to help out).  It's a very, very bizarre experience.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 22, 2020, 09:52:14 AM
It sounds very Hunger Games-ish in a way, and I've occasionally worried about complete social breakdown. I am already sure we are heading for a new Great Depression, and the generations since then have become less and less able to focus together.

I also think those pessimistic thoughts may not be a crystal ball, but just may reflect the cumulative effect of so many weeks alone here, most days, and how narrow my routine is (even though I do get to go to M's).

Cases continue to climb here (three times what they were a few weeks ago), but this town is slow to reopen. Perhaps because it's a highly educated area, perhaps because there's a lot of wealth (and a small middle class and poor working people who have to live an hour+ away from town and its resources, and must drive in to earn their minimum wage). There are far fewer cases in town than in the surrounding rural areas where most service workers come from.

Suffering here will be less than in big cities or areas of mass unemployment; the university is a behemoth and the largest economic contributor to the area. But it's here already and will increase. I notice that in this privileged city, most of the grief about small business suffering is focused on restaurants. I will also miss many that won't recover, but think it's ironic that the privilege of dining out is one reason so much emphasis is on our famous foodie scene. I would like to know more about the other small businesses that involve necessary things in small scale and already battle big box stores...those need more protection from the lucky, imo.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 22, 2020, 10:43:04 AM
Yes it's hard to know how things are going to go after this.  At the beginning I was hopeful that it would be a huge reset for the environment, for putting people before profit, spending time together and so on.  But that only seemed to last a couple of weeks (here, anyway) and since then it seems to be two camps; those who are sacrificing a lot and those who are doing what they like and don't seem to care about anyone else.  The media's very manipulative; lots more focus on statues than on Covid deaths; someone stabbed three people at the weekend and it's been all over the news for days as a terrorist attack.  It's terribly sad but over a hundred people died of covid the same day and that seems to have become acceptable now.  The racism is like nothing I've seen before; presumably because we didn't have the internet before so I was more protected from it.  But people post the racist abuse they receive on Twitter and it's vile; I genuinely had no idea that people were still using words like 'coon' and 'nigger'.  Truly disgusting.

So the aftermath worries me.  We've an awful government and alternative options aren't terribly encouraging.  Brexit is steaming ahead and that's going to destroy us.  The EU is far from perfect but we have good trade deals in place and freedom of movement is an amazing opportunity for young people, in particular.  People are leaving in their droves and I don't blame them; I'd be off if I got the chance.  But we can all only do what we can do, right?  Just try our best to keep healthy and well and then just hope, I suppose.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 22, 2020, 12:58:42 PM
Where would you go if you had the opportunity, Tupp?

I love your reasoning and would love to hear the country/countries you'd be drawn to.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 22, 2020, 01:59:03 PM
Where would you go if you had the opportunity, Tupp?

I love your reasoning and would love to hear the country/countries you'd be drawn to.

hugs
Hops

Oh gosh, Hopsie, I think there are very few countries I wouldn't be willing to try!  I always wanted to travel; in fact it was the only thing I ever wanted to do (Irish traveler blood, I think).  The reason I got into teaching was so that I could work my way around and pick and choose whether to do a 'proper' job (International School, for example) or do voluntary work or something very low paid because I'd have the money from 'proper' jobs to live off.  Even when son came around I still thought we could do it because most he could have just attended school wherever we were so I had grand plans of this nomadic lifestyle with my little man in tow and I just thought it would be the most amazing experience for us both.  But then disability made an appearance and it really does change everything.

Warmer and/or sunnier climates appeal to me (to counteract the SAD I experience).  Places like Greece, Spain and Portugal are all relatively cheap compared to the UK, particularly on a teacher's salary, but the language would be a huge problem for son and we'd have to organise carers for him if I were to work and that seems like a big task as well.  I spent time in Goa when younger and loved it and almost moved there when son was a baby.  Lost my nerve at the last minute and have often wondered if my life would be very different now if I'd gone.  New Zealand appeals enormously but would be very difficult for son and myself to get into due to his health problems and my age/working life left in me situation.  I'd love to spend time in the Nordic countries (don't think I'd like to live there, I think the cold and dark would get me down but would love extended visits).  Places like Germany also appeal but again, all of this is difficult with son needing the care he does, plus money/support/health insurance and so on.  Ireland is a possibility but they have a lot of the same problems we do here (housing cost being high in many places, lack of support for disabilities and so on).  I'd honestly consider pretty much anywhere but it is all so difficult for me to do everything on my own, particularly with little cash.  I do often wish I'd gone for it when I was younger and had a lot more energy.  I often wonder what would have happened if we'd been living abroad and my mum couldn't have caused all the trouble she did.  I read my travel books and pretend I'm there :)  Lol

Thank you for asking, it's nice to talk about those long forgotten dreams!  I used to go off to sleep imagining I was teaching in a school in Africa somewhere remote and really feeling like I was doing something amazing with my life xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 23, 2020, 12:20:52 PM
Well I'm in two minds about what's going on here now.  They're opening up most things next month - pubs, restaurants, cinemas, hotels etc.  Social distancing has been reduced to a metre (three feet).  People can meet indoors in 'bubbles' (I didn't read the details but I think there's a limit on numbers or something.

We are still having numbers in the high 900s test positive each day.  The death rate is lower than it was but is still around 100 a day.  If that many people continue to catch it during lockdown I struggle to see how that will fall with more people going out and doing things.  Equally we can't carry on all sitting indoors indefinitely.  I've got past the anger and frustration of why wasn't more done to prevent this and how badly the whole thing's been handled.  I've stopped worrying about how bad it's going to be after, when they start clawing back the money this has cost.

We can keep ourselves relatively safe.  I can carry on with deliveries for anything we need.  We are close enough to town to walk in if we need to.  We won't be venturing out over the summer season; we're in a holiday area and it will be packed so we don't go out much anyway because it's too busy.  We'll continue to avoid buses.  But I did hug the little girl that comes round today.  I was outside doing the garden and she came up and put her arms round me and I just couldn't not hug her.  So we had a little cuddle.  Officially not a good idea but I couldn't shove her off.  I've showered and put clean clothes on.  We're luckier than most in this situation as we can carry on mostly indoors without it being a huge problem.  I'm grateful for that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 23, 2020, 12:30:13 PM
Oh Tupp, you ARE doing something amazing with your life.
You were hit with the most incredible curve ball and turned the game into a very different dance, full of agony and resilience and learning and finally some ease...that we who have watched you move have seen as nothing but beauty and courage.

If that's not an amazing life, I don't know what is.
I am sorry those dreams didn't happen but I am positive when it's all said and done, you will see your own value. Priceless.

As to your next post, how incredible that you got to hug a child. How extraordinary a moment. How even more extraordinary that this is happening.

I just look forward to noticing newness in humanity, when this passes us by or if it doesn't, when we find new ways to express love. It could be beautiful.

hugs (!)
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on June 24, 2020, 08:25:45 PM
Our State is keeping bars and gyms closed for another 3 weeks, as of today. 

Also, masks are to be worn indoors and out of doors, when roaming.  It's mandatory, but I've heard that before.   My neighbors seem to believe the police might be interested in enforcing that, but I have my doubts.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on June 25, 2020, 07:09:00 PM
CB:

What "things" do the nurses say need to be put in place?

What kind of things are you stocking, and what are you stocking them for?

lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 26, 2020, 04:50:05 AM
Lighter,

I'm sorry that wasn't clear. There are no "things". My kids have things going on in their lives related to their jobs and health that arent my stories to tell. I didnt mean for that to sound ominous, just an explanation for why I havent interacted much on the board.

As for restocking, after 4 months of sheltering in place I have run out of all the basic supplies that I had stockpiled: laundry detergent, cleaners, paper towels, etc and some of those things are less available than I expected or the price has gone way up. I hadnt really expected that we would be doing this all over again and all of it at once.  I'm having to go back and rethink what I really need to replace and if I need to change to a different store for delivery or if that will even help. I have already noticed that delivery times are less available, so I'm trying to think ahead. I remember that when all this first started it was hard to get some really basic stuff like flour, rice etc. Also, I dont have a job this time around, so I'm thinking through that as well.  So that's my restocking.

I think I'm a little more frightened than I was the first time. I think we know more now and at least my family is getting weary. We don't live close to each other and everyone is isolated. I was on the phone for about 6 hours today.

Thanks for asking, Lighter. We will probably be okay. Just getting tired and ready for this to be over.

CB

CB, I'm sorry this is tough for you right now.  I think the prospect of isolation with shortages, surges and no clear plan of how to manage it (on the part of the powers that be) or when it might end permanently is a tough one to cope with.  I think we can all get through a few months of things not being great but I know I thought we'd be coming out of the woods at this point.  It kind of looks like it might get a lot worse before it gets better and that's not a pleasant prospect.  And it must be hard for your kids to be coping, especially as they are working in it.  I know all the people I know who've worked through it have had to cope with huge changes at work, a lot of extra stress, staff shortages, people being stupid and then also cope with child/elder care, not seeing relatives, no social life to unwind by and so on.  It's a very tough situation to be in for an extended period.  I can understand the isolation peace starting to wear thin.  I hope you know you can dump anything that's on your shoulders here and that people will understand and empathise.

We're still a bit in limbo here.  It's still a constant presence but we haven't seen a sudden overwhelm as we did last time.  We ventured out for the first time together yesterday for son's end of term picnic.  I made us both cloth masks to wear in the taxi and the taxi driver is in gloves and a visor, hand sanitiser available, and he told me he disinfects his cab inbetween each fare (and you could smell it, very clean!).  That reassured me.  I walked into town to get son's meds -some people consciously keeping their distance, others not.  One thing I did find baffling was the pharmacy - given that anyone going to a pharmacy would presumably have a health problem or be collecting for someone who does I'd have thought the staff would be in masks, but only one was.  I kept my distance.

I hope you can get restocked.  I think it's more worrying when it's so close to home and affecting people you know personally.  I hope it starts to settle again soon xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on June 26, 2020, 11:02:43 AM
CB:

I hope you figure out a restocking plan and manage it soon.  It can help restore calm and equilibrium, IME.  Just to have a plan and be able to carry it out.  I started a hunt for more antibacterial wipes today.  14.00 on Amazon with a 14.00 shipping fee.  Grrrrr.  Why can't they produce enough antibac wipes?  I haven't seen them, at all, in stores since March!

Sorry your grown children are dealing with difficulties.  We're dealing with issues in our house, but I think it's easier when you're close.  All that distance adds to the tension. 

Lighter
 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 26, 2020, 11:37:31 AM
At some point, if it's not on Amazon I may not have it.
I may need to order everything three weeks ahead, not two.
I may need to take out those bags of dehydrated veggies and make soup.
I may have to go without a whole lot of stuff but still know I'm okay because I ordered in a lot of brown rice and beans.
I may go vegan rather than just be pescatarian (though canned sardines and tuna go a long way when I order a dozen from Amazon).

WIPES: Tear paper towels into wipe size. Stack them in a tight-lid container and dribble 65% alcohol + 35% water or aloe gel over them. Or do the same with the standard bleach formula. You don't need a lot of disinfectant on wipes because covid-19 is easily killed by just a little.

(I get pure organic aloe gel--the original stuff pressed straight from leaves, not the manufactured kind--from Amazon. It's a perfect texture to replace water in home-made wipes or hand sanitizer. It's watery and not thick but it's wonderful.)

Don't panic, anybody. If cleaners are a worry, order several different kinds now and hit up your local pharmacy delivery for pure rubbing alcohol. A little goes a looong way. Or buy a case of cheap vodka (no shortages there, far as I know). Just look up the alcohol content and adjust formulas accordingly.

Y'all probably know all this already but my unsolicited-advice gene kicked in....

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 01, 2020, 11:52:35 AM
Today has been a difficult day.  I'm not sure why.  I texted with a friend and she said she's spoken to a few people this week who have all hit a wall.  I think we're three months in and there's just no real plan or leadership in place.  It's emerged over the last couple of days that the government have only been releasing the test results from clinical settings - hospitals, care homes and so on.  Those numbers are relatively small.  But it seems they've been keeping quiet about the positive test results out in the community and those numbers are much higher.  They're opening up this coming Saturday all the bars and pubs and at the same time announcing a local lockdown in one part of the country because the infection rate is high.

I get that we can't stay locked down for ever.  I'm fed up with it now and we're used to being in and going nowhere.  But if we're going to be out and about we have to have testing and a good tracking system for people who test positive and, in my opinion, masks should be compulsory as well.  I don't see how we can have any other way of managing it now.  The point of lockdown was supposed to be to get the numbers so low that it died out (as far as I'm aware) but they've carried on letting people in and out of the country and of course, there are millions of people in essential jobs who've all had to carry on working as normal (if not harder) throughout this.  And then they've done these sort of partial re-openings of things that all involve people milling about together.  It seems to me it would have been easier to manage social distancing and good hygiene in schools and colleges, for example, rather than pubs.  I can only assume the business leaders have all been pressuring to get the money flowing again and those of us who are more susceptible just have to carry on staying in and hope to Christ we don't get it.  It just feels like there's no end in sight at the moment and I thought we'd at least have some decent information to hand by now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 01, 2020, 12:34:50 PM
Quote
if we're going to be out and about we have to have testing and a good tracking system

You're right, Tupp. And the most frustrating part about "we have to" is that we can't make it happen ourselves. So what we really "have to" do is accept what is and fight off the fear. So we're all stuck with some degree of incompetence from government plus a lack of conscience and common sense from too many citizens. Bad place to be. It's even worse here. Life has changed.

I'm so sorry you're having nightmares, CB. That sucks. (Melatonin gives me them sometimes.) Is there anything you would like to do on Zoom that could bring you into new friendships? Hate to suggest Zooming but as I do it once or twice a week, I get more used to it...and it actually is providing some kind of species comfort. Not As Good As Real. But I can sometimes feel my brain responding to friendly faces/voices in a positive way. I'll take it. Not daily, but having a few scheduled social "meetings" is helping, with people who talk with each other kindly and respectfully. My church has online coffee hour, broken into small groups where folks just talk. My Covenant Group is very loyal and bonded. We're so close by now that we really listen to each other and it's a big comfort.

If I had no such support and wanted to try Zooming, I'd look up women's support groups or uber-liberal discussion groups, etc. I think there are a lot of them.

I'm just guessing about this...truly....but do you think it'd be good for you to have some non-family connections?

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 01, 2020, 12:47:27 PM
I have this below my email signature. It's my healthiest response to everything pandemic and/or political now. It helps me every time I read it. (I probably already shared it here....). I want to be more like the wild things, even indoors.

The Peace of Wild Things by Wendell Berry

When despair for the world grows in me
and I wake in the night at the least sound
in fear of what my life and my children’s lives may be,
I go and lie down where the wood drake
rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds.
I come into the peace of wild things
who do not tax their lives with forethought
of grief. I come into the presence of still water.
And I feel above me the day-blind stars
waiting with their light. For a time
I rest in the grace of the world, and am free.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 01, 2020, 01:16:15 PM
I'm right there with you Tupp. Our governor is pro party line and began reopening everything at a fast clip about 2 weeks ago. The covid cases, just in my county have doubled in 8 days. We are in serious trouble, with little leadership. He closed down the bars again, but it's too little too late. I'm with you--and I'm at heart a restaurant owner--but to me I dont get the big rush for restaurants to be open when its not safe to open schools.

I'm feeling it this week, too. Starting to have nightmares, although days for me, personally, are uneventful. Just focusing on staying in touch with loved ones and doing whatever I need to to keep in good mental spirits. I embarked on movie watching, even though I rarely do. I just need a story I can dip into during the day to get a break.

How is your son with all of it? Mine is struggling a bit. This is a lot of isolation for him.

CB

You broke my dream CB, I'd forgotten about it but it woke me up in the early hours of the morning!  I dreamed we were at the supermarket and my son had run off across the carpark.  I was trying to chase him but I was running against the direction of the arrows so the security guard was grabbing me to stop me running the wrong way and son was getting further and further away from me.  I hate dreams that involve him :( Although he is doing fine with all this; he is genuinely happiest in his room on his own and really doesn't crave company from anyone.  I'm sorry your lad is struggling with it now.  It has just been such a long time.  I don't mind now going out but I've not seen a friend now since February and because we live in a holiday area (which is all opening up again next week) I don't think we'll be venturing anywhere until October at the earliest.  That's weighing on me a bit now.  And yes, this practise of opening places up and just seeing how it goes is a fool's errand.  I was chatting to one of my neighbours and she said there's no way she's going to a shop when she can't go and visit her own mum.  My son's tutor has been phoning each week and her mum is in a care home with dementia and they are having their visits with a plastic screen between them, like a prison visit.  People need their loved ones.

I hope the numbers start to drop in your area again soon.  It's like those horror movies when you see your woman going down into the basement and you just know that's where mad axe man is going to be hiding.  Just watching it unfold and not being able to do anything about it.  I'm very grateful for you guys xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 01, 2020, 01:17:58 PM
I have this below my email signature. It's my healthiest response to everything pandemic and/or political now. It helps me every time I read it. (I probably already shared it here....). I want to be more like the wild things, even indoors.

The Peace of Wild Things by Wendell Berry

When despair for the world grows in me
and I wake in the night at the least sound
in fear of what my life and my children’s lives may be,
I go and lie down where the wood drake
rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds.
I come into the peace of wild things
who do not tax their lives with forethought
of grief. I come into the presence of still water.
And I feel above me the day-blind stars
waiting with their light. For a time
I rest in the grace of the world, and am free.

The poem's lovely, Hops, thank you, and yes, you're right, there's nothing we can do but try to keep ourselves safe as best we can and try to hold on.  There are a couple of people whose pictures I might start throwing darts at, though ;)  xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 05, 2020, 12:02:08 PM
Well our death rates are fairly low and so are the numbers of positive cases.  I'm not confident we're being given accurate information.  We've had BLM demos, thousands descending on beaches (half a million on one beach, they had to declare it a public emergency), very little social distancing in supermarkets, very low numbers of people wearing masks - and we've low numbers of the virus, a lower death rate - and an enforced local lockdown in one part of the country.  It doesn't make sense to me that of the millions of people that have been in very close contact with one another very few got ill, when during the lockdown we had in excess of 1,000 deaths a day.  I know those people would have caught it before the lockdown but it still doesn't make sense to me that the risk isn't there now?  We've still got people coming in daily from overseas and they've opened the pubs this weekend (but still no schools - how do you open pubs before schools and libraries?  Surely you can manage good hygiene and social distancing in schools and libraries better than you can in buildings full of drunk people?).  I don't understand how we've gone from 'you can catch it off your groceries, wash everything and don't open your mail for three days' to 'accumulate by the thousand, get drunk out your face, do what you like and it's okay' without any kind of preventative medicine, effective treatment, efficient test and trace (Johnson couldn't even say the words during the briefing, he fluffed it three times.  Twat) or any kind of mask wearing going on.  It doesn't add up to me.  So we'll be carrying on staying home for now, whatever is being opened up or going on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 05, 2020, 01:19:01 PM
Thanks, CB.  I know, I've seen reports from various places about entire groups getting infected going to a wedding or out for an evening together.  People here get stupid when they're drunk at the best of times; A & E's always full of drunk people on a Friday and Saturday night so people drinking puts pressure on services anyway.  They did close some pubs because it got too dangerous; I feel most sorry for the staff.  Their choice is go to work or not get paid.  So we'll see what happens, I just feel upset, I think, that we can't really trust any news source or government service to be truthful and people are having to rely on 'my friend who works in A & E said her friend in ICU said' and try to work out from that what they ought to be doing.

We are pretty well stocked up; I've been ordering extra for the last six or seven weeks so we've got plenty of tins and the freezers full, plus plenty of laundry stuff, bleach, paracetamol, loo roll and all that sort of thing.  Just in case we lock down again and the supermarkets get stripped like they did last time.  I hope you can get your supplies back together again, it just helps to reassure yourself that you've got enough in, doesn't it?

Yes I like the idea of having sort of 'making lists as a hobby' lists lol.  It's the balance, isn't it, between getting on with today and allowing yourself to dream of something better in the future.  Ironically I've got more done today than I usually would if I'd written loads of lists out lol.

I hope things get better over there for you, CB, I'll keep you posted with what's going on here!  A friend wanted to come round this morning but I said no; I'd rather stay home for another couple of months and see how it goes.  One of the benefits of not rushing about is that we've been able to explore our local area more when we've been out for walks and I've found a more direct and much wider route into town, so it will be easier and safer for us to walk in now which is good (not that we'll be going very often but they're doing click and collect from the library next week and we're both very excited about getting some new books!  Lol) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 05, 2020, 02:02:37 PM
CB and Tupp,
Sounds to me as though both of you are very reality-oriented, and thank you for the reminder. I have loads of staples still, though I should order some more dried beans maybe. And dehydrated onion and garlic.

Brown rice and beans. And if one does Amazon, dehydrated veggies, which fluff up just fine in water. Surprisingly good.

Other big thing, sounds silly. I'm fine on toilet paper for now but mindful that's one thing I'd hate to live without. So I'm thinking of training myself to just use a stream of water (I've read this many places) to "wipe" myself after urinations only, and save the TP for going doody, so to speak. It's actually a cleaner result anyway, experts say. Why I don't plan to go water-only for doody (a gay guy who thinks for .5 second about female needs until prompted, but he's funny): https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/toilet-paper-shortage-learn-how-to-hygienically-clean-your-butt-without-it-a875cbb06cbe (https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/toilet-paper-shortage-learn-how-to-hygienically-clean-your-butt-without-it-a875cbb06cbe)

And how easy it is to use water for peeing, I guess I don't need an article to explain. One could pat with a sheet or two of TP if one is super damp, or let the gusset of the undies absorb it (won't build up bacteria as body heat dries it quickly). Or go commando until dry. Just have to find a flexible squishy water bottle to keep by the loo. An old dishwashing detergent bottle, minus the soap residue, would work fine. Homemade bidet!

I HAVE A NEW CAUSE! :) 

WE CAN COPE WITH THIS. WE ALREADY HAVE, FOR MANY MONTHS. IF WE HAVE TO DO IT FOR LONGER, WE CAN DO THAT TOO.

(I've recently read guesstimates that a functional, well tested and proven vaccine--including the testing and proving time---is a long way away.) Hence, waterloo. [See what I did there?????]

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 05, 2020, 04:52:31 PM
I hear you. I need to get bleach, laundry soap and dish soap for sure.

Otherwise, I think I'm fine. I wonder if they sell dried potatoes. I just don't cook enough to keep fresh ones long enough. As to bread, I've got flour and some Chinese yeast that finally came from Amazon. Hope it works.

But I'm trying not to eat a lot of carbs anyway, sticking mostly to rice and Ak-Mak crackers.

And if I'm out of something, I do have a community to call on in real need. This town is both small and expensive enough that I think there will be supplies. That's wrong, but I think true.

I've saved money too, to my surprise. I was eating my income because friends always wanted to meet out, and I don't cook. But I'm forcing myself too, more than I used to.

I'm making zucchini and onions and a big salad for tonight, and have defrosted cod fillets that M will fancy up when he comes. Had hoped to sign up for just a month of DisneyPlus so we could watch the Hamilton movie, but my Roku box is out of date (planned obsolescence) so we're outta luck. If I can find a newer Roku on sale I might get it though.

hugs and hang in there, CB--I completely understand the restlessness.

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 06, 2020, 08:47:33 AM
They do instant mashed potatoes here, Hops, but they're pretty disgusting.  You can get tinned potatoes here, they're not great on their own but they're quite good sauteed.

Yes, I think you're right that it's long term.  I'm missing friends.  Haven't seen a friend now since February and I miss face to face contact.  I've kind of got in my head that it's likely to be next year before we actually see people in the flesh again.

On the plus side we are saving a ton of money.  It will go quickly once we do start getting out and about again but it's nice to have it there for the time being.  CB, I'm finding the same with the days passing so quickly.  I'm finding I'm perfectly happy sitting watching TV and I suddenly realise it's been hours and I didn't even notice.  I think it's such an unusual situation that we're all bound to be having odd experiences right now.

One thing I do feel a bit down about is that I've had to pretty much stop any and all online activity apart from here.  The endless guff that other people keep posting was really getting me down, as are the various news outlets.  We're really starved of good quality, fact based information here, and some decent educated guess work from suitably qualified people.  So many people seem to focus more on their own ego or their profits, or both, and that seems to interfere with fact.  So that has kind of got me down a bit because there are bands I like to follow and a couple of disability related groups.  But everything feels very confrontational at the minute so even groups that are supposed to be about music tend to fall into 'all of this' as well.  So I've had to pretty much cut off from all of that.  I miss some of it.

I have been surprised that I still feel tired a lot of the time.  I'd have thought I'd be brimming with energy now but it seems to be having the opposite effect.  We're doing a short walk each day but I feel like I've been up a mountain when we get back.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 06, 2020, 04:52:09 PM
You too, ((((((CB))))).

It's got to be awful to live in a very active hot spot.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on July 07, 2020, 01:57:42 AM
Not surprising. Suspected all along duh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W64V7rXWxHY
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 07, 2020, 02:37:32 AM
I know what you mean, Tupp. I have been dragging my butt for the last week. No reason for it except I'm just DONE with all this.

Placed my order Saturday and got everything I needed. Then this morning, my son had some specific things he wanted so we placed another! He's feeling it too, and hoping diet changes will be helpful. I'm sure we aren't as healthy as when we started all this because of much less outdoor time. I don't miss work but I do miss the greenhouse.

The situation here is becoming dire and I don't think I can avoid being anxious. More information makes me feel BETTER, without info I would still be housebound but I think it would start taking on an unreal quality. I am very aware of what is happening in Congress and in activist groups. It helps. From time to time, I check in on old friends and I am astounded at some of their opinions. I'm feeling some grief, but that feels inevitable.

As it is, I am having to be very conscious of time so I dont lose track of where I am--it is Monday. It is lunch time, etc. I have a couple of kids who are having issues with sleep because their inner clock is skewing. It seems to be bothering those of us who are not working from home, but are just waiting this out.

Keep safe everybody.

CB

I'm glad you got everything you needed, CB.  That at least is a comfort.  I think I would be comforted by information if I knew it was factually accurate.  For me, the numbers aren't stacking up - for them to be consistently falling as more and more people go out and mingle doesn't make sense.  Ditto the death rate.  Two weeks ago we were still having around a thousand excess deaths a month (that is, a thousand more than you would expect for the time of year).  Last week we didn't have a single excess death, despite having hundreds of Covid related deaths.  That would mean that fewer people than usual had died overall, and it would have to be a lot lower than normal to accommodate all the Covid deaths without the number going up.  That didn't make sense to me and still doesn't.

I am finding the lack of focus of time means it's just vanishing, as you say.  I have tried a few times to do myself a time table or set myself some time goals and some days that seems to help, but others nothing seems to get my bum off the sofa.  I'm still liking not having to deal with people.  Some friends mentioned coming to visit in October and I panicked a bit.  I don't think it will be safe until they have a vaccine (at least not in this country and probably not in yours either).  So much is unknown.  Can you get out walking at all or is it too busy where you are to avoid people?

Yes, a lot of people have said their sleep is all over the place.  Very difficult to deal with.  Ironically my son's sleep is better than usual.  We are both so back to front.  I hope things settle in your area soon.  I do wish people hadn't been so arrogant about this at the outset.  I think we'd have had fewer problems. xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 07, 2020, 01:15:22 PM
Dunno about other states, but this one is divided into "health districts." (Maybe that's common.) And...once you find the state website, you can select the health district you live in.

What mine has is super helpful--it's for this city and the surrounding counties. A daily update of New Cases is posted at 10am, and there's a large graph masthead that shows the angle of the curve. The data is broken down in every way you might be interested (age, gender, race, city or which county, all kinds of categories if you like to know more).

What I am most interested is the specific daily rate of new hospitalizations (death rate isn't super high but both are rising), because for me, that's the urgency. Avoiding getting covid-19, and avoiding the hospital no matter what.

That said, a close friend who desperately needed a hip replacement and had it scheduled for March, lived with serious unremitting pain until two days ago, when they finally operated. (Well, she's in recovery pain, but so relieved one hip is done now.) I was so sad for her. Lives alone and just had to cope when they had to cancel all elective procedures for a time. Unfortunately, they will soon be doing that again I'm sure, as our first-wave curve is still climbing. That's why the great mask arguments are so hard to witness...people who doesn't understand what's happening have made it all a huge tribal/political fight, instead of a human being challenge. And people who need such surgeries will live in pain because of it.

I don't mind if I'm staying home a couple years from now. Whatever it takes. I'm prepared! Life is different, we don't know exactly what the lasting social changes might be, but I am very confident some will be good. Might as well align myself with those positive visions, because the negatives will happen whether I'm fearful or not. And I'm stronger when I tap into hope.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 07, 2020, 02:24:15 PM
Great chart to ponder right now.

https://thecounselingteacher.com/2020/04/how-to-relieve-anxiety-during-times-of-uncertainty.html (https://thecounselingteacher.com/2020/04/how-to-relieve-anxiety-during-times-of-uncertainty.html)

hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 08, 2020, 11:53:38 AM
I'm glad you got your paperwork sorted, CB, even if it did mean hours on the phone.  Argh, I know that feeling, such a waste of time just waiting to get through.  But done eventually.  It does feel good to cross a job off the list.  And yes, reintroducing things slowly for both of us is going to be the thing - do a little bit, see how we both feel and respond, maybe not do it again!  Feels nice to have the choice.

Hops, your local information sounds great!  We're not getting any now - they've stopped publishing daily case numbers and the Office of National Statistics don't seem to be publishing information about the excess death rate now, either (or at least, not in a format that I can understand).  We're just being kept in the dark, with a budget package announced today to stimulate jobs and to entice people out to eat with meal vouchers.  Seriously?!  Who'd have thought the most radical thing any of us could do in 2020 would be to stay home and only eat your own food.  It's kind of bonkers.  They're acting like it's over and we can all just get back to normal now.  There are huge waiting lists for all sorts of operations and procedures (I feel for your friend having to wait so long for her hip op).  We are apparently unprepared for a second wave with a lack of PPE and food prices are expected to rise sharply when we leave the EU without a deal at the end of the year.  So that's good.  I am seriously wondering whether I should clear the shed out properly and start stacking tins out there.  Tins should be alright, I think, I guess I could stack things like tins and pasta in those clear plastic storage boxes to keep them dry and keep mouse wee off them.  I perhaps need to go and move stuff around a bit and see how much space I can free up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 08, 2020, 11:46:29 PM
Another very helpful chart, much appreciated when gov'ts have such difficulty conveying decision criteria with consistency!

http://www.ezekielemanuel.com/writing/all-articles/2020/06/30/covid-19-activity-risk-levels?fbclid=IwAR2oNoUnjxrHjC1jrWUUYaBybVpYK4cOJuzLBEchi6PtIv4LpsgWxOSmx4o (http://www.ezekielemanuel.com/writing/all-articles/2020/06/30/covid-19-activity-risk-levels?fbclid=IwAR2oNoUnjxrHjC1jrWUUYaBybVpYK4cOJuzLBEchi6PtIv4LpsgWxOSmx4o)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 10, 2020, 02:23:56 PM
That is handy, Hops, we can easily stick to green activities so that's good :)

Things here don't make sense.  We've got (apparently) rising numbers in 108 places across England, with one country back in total lockdown and six pubs closed since Saturday for deep cleaning after someone tested positive in each one.  We also had today one of the lowest death counts we've had so far and a lower number of diagnosed cases as well.  It just doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 10, 2020, 08:34:39 PM
I know. For the average-educated person, the numbers can't be woven. Even for the above-average, highly logical person like you, they still can't be woven. I think the only thing we can weave is the covering of our own common sense, and reasonable responses to evidence we are seeing/hearing from scientists.

It's very weird to feel we're on our own in decision making. But that's one reason I so liked that chart. It's concrete and pragmatic. Doesn't solve the long-term worries but certainly makes it easier to negotiate the next day/week/month with some of the best info (summarized) I've seen.

I'm just not trying to make sense of individual or anecdotal reports, because it's a novel virus that's caught both our governments flat-footed, and I frankly think informed citizens like yourself, or others who think and read outside politics, are among the best prepared. We can just face the facts we DO have, and make our best decisions. Our governments will keep parsing and explaining several beats behind the emergency, imo, so our best security is really from trusting our own good minds.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 11, 2020, 03:01:29 AM
I think you're right, Hopsie.  Son and I are lucky that we can basically sit this out - although oddly I feel guilty about that.  Grateful as well, but I feel bad for others who can't.  It is a little tricky because the news reports are all about things opening up again - son reads all of that.  I still don't feel it's safe but I don't want to labour the point with him that I think the news is inaccurate (because he's taking so much pleasure from the positive statements).  So I'm just fibbing a bit or avoiding the issue, which I don't like to do.  But I suppose it's needs must at the moment.  I just notice contradictions when I read them and I like things to balance properly.  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 17, 2020, 01:54:45 AM
A team of science people from Oxford have released a paper (not peer reviewed yet) stating that they think T cells may be playing a role in some people having better immunity to Covid (asymptomatic, mild cases, severe cases but recovering well) and that herd immunity may be possible with 20% of the population having immunity.  There is a cancer doctor in the UK who has been saying all the way through this that he thinks T cells may play a part.  He's also been found to falsely link himself to a University in the past and there was something shady about a paper he published at one time, I think.  It's very difficult; people can be dishonest and still be good at their jobs, but it means that it's difficult to trust their opinion or point of view.

I'm personally finding the fact that papers can publish information that hasn't been proved one way or the other (and I know this is happening globally; little bits of information from various studies, much of it not formalised) really disconcerting.  The opinion from many has been that herd immunity may not be achievable anyway, because the anti-bodies don't seem to linger for long.  80% was also touted as the magic number needed at the beginning as well.  People are confused and fed up with being confused, I think.  We are in a bizarre situation here where people can go to the pub and meet with strangers but are still not supposed to just be visiting friends and family in their homes (you can do it in a bubble if both households aren't going anywhere else but as almost everyone is at the very least going to the supermarket that makes it virtually impossible).  Most people I know are listening to the advice coming from Scotland rather than from the English PM.  Sturgeon has done a much better job of handling this and their death rate has been zero for a week now, I think.

I did read that one of the big hospitals in our county hasn't had a Covid death for a fortnight now.  It should cheer me but my immediate thought was to wonder whether they're just sending them somewhere else or leaving them to die in care homes.  I feel sad that I can't trust any of the information given out now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 17, 2020, 02:49:17 AM
I hear you, Tupp. It IS sad.
Only thing I can bear is my tiny circle, being kind, and staying home.
It'll be harder before it gets easier, and nobody know for how long.
(I saw Tom Hanks explaining that although he's donated plasma twice, he's been told his antibiodies are dropping now too. He did a great brief riff about all the questions we still have about the virus and how the honest scientific answers are: We don't know. Maybe. That could be. We're not sure.)

It's not for lack of scientific trying, and there's certainly hope out there too. I just don't try to personally understand the ramifications of this development or that one. My pea-brain gets what my local health region daily charts are showing, and in our area it's a long original curve that is now rising faster than before. First wave. So that simplifies my choices a lot. (I'm sad I'll no longer be able to go back and forth to M's, because that had been my positive strategy for winter.)

The big picture is just TOO big to take on right now (but I don't have an orderly, logical mind as you do...I can understand why you follow developments so closely and seek more order amid the confusion.)

I just finished Mary Trump's book about the Donald, and her take as a psychologist as well as a family member is so penetrating. What a story. I wasn't very interested in the business bits, but her snaps of family drama, naricissm, sociopathy, traumatized children, dialogues and especially her closing chapter about how his deeply damaged personality has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths and exactly WHY: the direct link between his terrible combination of personality flaws and amorality and especially, his running on fear...were amazing. Plus, the bits about his enablers and entire party.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 17, 2020, 04:56:09 AM
Gosh that sounds like a scary but interesting book, Hops.  I'm astonished that there's a psychologist in the family.  I expect she often eats alone.  Lol.

Yes, I'm worried that my distrust levels have gone to the paranoid state now.  The 'possible herd immunity' article is printed in a paper that's traditionally Conservative and was followed by an article stating that people are not going out and spending, despite the pubs and shops being open now, and if they don't, the economy won't recover.  So my immediate thought is that the herd immunity one is to reassure people it's safe to go out and do you know what, however much the papers are doing and whatever is going on online, for the first time in a long time what I'm hearing people talk about in the actual world is different to what the papers are doing and saying.  There's a massive distrust in the government from all sides.  Those who think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion are angry that they've locked down at all and don't trust them and those of us who think the situation is every bit as bad as it seems to be don't feel we're being given accurate information and so are continuing to take precautions.  So they've really caused problems in every sector.  They've managed a high death rate and a wrecked economy, whilst at the same time managing to piss off just about everybody.  Early on lots of people were still supportive of them and saying, "well, it's a tough call, who could have done better".  But as time's gone on it's become apparent that almost every other leader on the planet could have done better, with one or two obvious exceptions.

Sigh.  Son and I will continue to stay home, do our short walks and socially distanced coffees, and save our money for moving.  The saving grace we do have is that we're pretty far from any major cities where I am so anything that's happening tends to start a good long distance away from us.  That at least means you tend to hear about what's happening in advance so I'm grateful for that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 17, 2020, 10:04:35 AM
I hear you, Tupp.

I'd just listen to scientists such as medical experts/epidemiologists right now.
Not political media. Or not pandemic stories IN political media that report mainly about people's emotions and/or political/irrational responses, to sell more media.

If one's doing the rational/right things to avoid infection, which you are....you are pretty much doing all you can do. Maybe time to go back on a news diet? Beware feeding the fear furnace. Paranoia is both reasonable and dangerous. With paranoia or without it, one either gets infected or one doesn't get infected. But paranoia makes it all worse. Or you could go all Heller (if you'd enjoy reading it again):

Quote
“There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.

"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 17, 2020, 04:50:07 PM
That's interesting to read, CB, the paper that's just been released here is about a theory (it's unproven yet; as you say, info's coming out fast) but the theory is that some people already have some degree of immunity due to their T cells (and apparently T cells are different to antibodies?  So they think that some people aren't catching it and/or are getting it mildly because their T cells are fighting the good fight).  And part of the theory around that is that Covid is part of the common cold family so, as you say, most people get colds every year so they're thinking that some people have built up an immunity.  Off the back of that they think that the virus can just die out if it runs out of people to infect (I think that was the gist of it; the whole thing is way over my head but Twitter doctors have been deciphering sections).  It would be a possible answer to my previous pondering over why we haven't seen big jumps after the BLM protests, huge beach gatherings, busy pubs and so on.  On the flip side of that, the Government have announced that the death figures haven't been accurate and they're not releasing daily figures until a review's been carried out.  No-one trusts them, god knows what they'll come back with and what their end game is.  This is what bothers me so much about the lack of accurate information - we're in an age when it's never been easier to get information and share it, yet there's such a lack of ethics it's impossible to figure out who's doing what and why.

I hear you about the news Hopsie but I'm only reading the Twitter people's stuff (science and medical) and then a quick scroll through the mainstream press to look for good news for son (he likes some sort of positive story each day, even if it's just someone buying someone a sandwich or something).  I don't watch or listen to it and I am of the mindset that we're doing all we can personally and we can't do any more of that, but I do find it all interesting?  But also sometimes frustrating and scary :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 17, 2020, 07:36:17 PM
Completely understand, Tupp. Why not follow along? I know everybody figures out their own "right level" with the news and uncertainty.

Meanwhile, I think this would be Very Helpful (still debating but I just may!):
https://www.afar.com/magazine/iceland-invites-the-world-to-scream-it-out (https://www.afar.com/magazine/iceland-invites-the-world-to-scream-it-out)

And this is for your son--I know there are better collections out there but I bookmarked this one and one or more of them do give me a lift every morning:
https://www.inspiremore.com (https://www.inspiremore.com)

(My current fav: Seriously, random shoppers--pre virus, it seems--just broke out with this! He heard her humming...and look what happened. Made me MELT:
https://youtu.be/D3XxmO_CJ-M (https://youtu.be/D3XxmO_CJ-M))

Sending him a big auntie-Yank hug and/or smooch, whichever he can manage!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on July 18, 2020, 07:13:13 PM
I really missed you on the board, CB.

So glad you're back.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CB123 on July 19, 2020, 09:55:36 AM
Awww Lighter...Thanks!

CB
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 19, 2020, 11:50:48 AM
Well, after diving into the long, arduous, DRY research into what is going on business-wise... I have a whole 'nother perspective on the virus situation.

The confusion you've all been talking about re: the virus has seriously impacted business activity. The reality of it is, that business activity - manufacturing is what I primarily looked at - has contracted so severely (~ 30-50% across the board, globally) that just like dominos toppling... there are going to be future impacts for an unknown amount of time. Our sales reflect that too. SO far, the cottage industry level is hanging on... and hasn't been significantly affected. But that's because instead of replacing equipment or tools that break, people are seeking out someone who can weld them back together again. Catepillar's sales are down 20-30% this year. That is a LOT of money people. And it's just one company. We know the automakers are down too; by a lot. That will impact steel - which was just beginning to get restarted domestically with projects still on the drawing board and in the permitting process (which takes about 5 years). For example.

My take on all that is we're in an undefined duration global economic contraction. That means fewer pieces of the pie to go around - and that would be at all levels; for everyone; eventually. Like a wave - like the virus even - the impacts are felt here; then there; and then way over there. And there were some serious issues in the economy and fiscal management by governments already weakening the ability of economies to withstand something like this. The shrinking of business activity will impact tax revenues for governments, eventually. And those with a high level of debt/deficit already are going to have to go into serious budget-cutting mode - or default on their debt obligations. I can't begin to imagine what that does to the geo-political landscape if it gets that bad. (Remains to be seen if it will; but this is the cause/effect chain. I still believe in the rare unexpected miracle, however.)

So, more uncertainty and not a pretty picture. But I HAVE to face reality and be as clear as possible about the situation even with so many uncertain variables in it... in order to make informed (to the best of what's available to me) decisions. Fortunately, I don't own a restaurant. I feel terrible for those people who have just lost their business due to all this. Even in good times, it's grueling hard work and the profit margins are slim.

My business is going to hunker down and try to survive. I have no idea if that's the right call - but things aren't past the point of no return for us YET and we DO have some options to implement when/if the sales picture deteriorates any more, before even considering laying anyone off... or locking the doors. I believe it's already too late to try to sell; there wouldn't be any buyers at the moment or in the foreseeable future... AND that is the least favorite of all the options. For a number of reasons.

So that's not exactly "trending" news on Twitter - but it is a reality for everyone. And even if it is gloomy, it's better to know that's the situation far enough in advance, so you can take appropriate steps to face it, as best one can. Everyone's in a different situation and will do different things to adjust & adapt.

I'm not freaking out here. I am not able to control the geo-econ-political environment we're in. But I sure can control how I react, respond, and deal with it. But I AM very concerned... and now I'm going to pay closer attention to certain things. But it's not the "daily dose of outrage, hype/fearmongering, or political posturing". That stuff serves absolutely no useful purpose in a situation like this.

Except to allow people to deny the reality of the situation. Thanks no, not for me.
--------------------

My state apparently got an A, for how the virus situation was managed. But I think a lot of the criteria is based on actual cases/deaths reported in that scale. We're a lower population state, with few big cities - and a lot of space between us all. We have not yet (it's been a couple days since I looked) hit 100 deaths in the state from the virus. People work more outdoors than in, here. And we don't socialize in large groups indoors. Churches would see the biggest group.

So, isolation remains one of the more effective preventions of infection, in my way of thinking. And despite the mask controversy over effectiveness - the more masks worn, the lower probability of virus-infected droplets spreading - ie, DISTANCE.

There is an ER doc on one of my other boards; his state was hard hit with cases a month ago. And what he saw was a number of critical hospitalized YOUNG people - in the 20-45 age group; many of whom were previously quite heatlhy. No underlying conditions, in other words.

I won't speculate - much - on what that all means. But I don't really like where my analytical brain goes as a result. As far as I'm concerned we don't know any more about this for sure, than we did in March/April. I'm sticking strictly the smaller set of things we KNOW; whether we like 'em or not...

and staying grateful for the fact that I'm one of those who can easily adapt to being a hermit. Who knew it would be so useful?

Perhaps in 6 months, all this will be past tense, the virus will burn itself out and things will look better. So many strange - not in my lifetime things - happening, that I'm not going to be surprised by much any more.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 19, 2020, 01:58:42 PM
Very briefly, Amber (have a Zoom date with a girlfriend in a few)...

Just want to say I found your post realistic, apolitical, rational, and wise. Sobering but strong.

And I am very sorry you have the weight of your business and its employees bearing down...while at the same time I celebrate the maturity and consideration of how you are thinking it through.

As to the unknowns and the likely economic/geopolitical effects of this pandemic...everything you wrote rang true to me too.

I'm really glad you're in that "fresh air" setting. My state has started to soar, but the numbers are concentrated in a very densely populated area. My town/county are less so...but the direction of the cases/hospitalizations is unambiguous.

It's remarkable what a different the arguments are between over-educated city/university types, and the folks in the rural counties around us (who do most of the underpaid service jobs) are. Pure politics, which is the saddest thing about all this. I imagine what if this pandemic had been explained to the entire population in terms of patriotism, sacrifice for the cause or the common good. Not now.

Anyway, really respected your post and your reasoning!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 19, 2020, 04:01:12 PM
Thanks Hops.

I really wish more people would stop seeing things in terms of politics - left or right - and simply focus on what IS, what we KNOW, and start addressing things from that standpoint. I guess it's natural to start in your personal life, and branch out to friends & acquaintances... and if called to do so, on from there. Sure, we're all gonna have different priorities - for some it's poverty, some it's pervasive abuse, others religion... but there is room for people to work on ALL those things... including keeping the "engine" of the economy oiled, lubed, and working for everyone's benefit.

I'm still helping Hol transcend that thought limitation - but I mostly leave her to do it as she will. I'm not trying to change her mind about politics. (As it is - between our very different viewpoint - we've discovered and listed a LOT of common ground that she initially thought would be impossible. Seems she let labels create a box around her thinking about even Mom. We set that bad box on fire... both of us.)

Those of us who CAN reach out and "touch" common ground with others really need (in terms of the universe's balance) to start showing up and speaking up about now. Connecting. I don't think anyone wants to see what happens if any of the wheels on this rickety state of affairs get any looser and start to fall off.

There is still a lot of good stuff, that it would be a shame to lose.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 20, 2020, 07:08:29 AM
Back to the personal side of quarantine life for a mo'--

I have one friend (my closest, who's been coming to my house once a week to meet outside). She's not being pushy about it, but is interested in trying to meet, just the two of us, indoors when weather's bad. We'd sit well apart and both wear masks. We both know how paranoid I am about the virus, we're the same age, etc. I think she would be considerate (for example, if she used the bathroom I know she'd carefully disinfect on the way out). But I'm still a bit scared of doing that. She's cautious too, but I've found her throughout sort of relentlessly optimistic.

I'm just a bit more rigid about precautions than she is, but not by a lot--and know there's a big diference between an enclosed space and outside. She has family members from other cities who have stayed with her, so I'd want her to quarantine for two weeks (regarding her I mean) after they had left. Perhaps three, since the two weeks is an arbitrary period. This article sums up that:
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/generalinfectiousdisease/84963 (https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/generalinfectiousdisease/84963)

She quotes "quarantine for 14 days" as though it's guaranteed safety and I'm just not convinced. And her partner, though he does take the usual precautions, is not quite as reliable about doing it every single time as I think she is. Overall I think she'd be a "quite safe" person to try this with but not a "very safe" person. Still, it could make a big mental health difference, I think. I wouldn't want to do the same at her house because of her partner, I don't think.

Anyhow, wondered if y'all think that would be crazy.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 20, 2020, 09:03:10 AM
It's very difficult, Hops, because so much of this is unproven - it's such a new disease and they're still finding out so much about it that it's very hard to know what the most reliable information is, or even if that information is correct (it may come to light that information they're giving out now turns out to be wrong - we just don't know).

I have decided my personal approach is to judge each situation and balance high risk of catching the virus against physical/mental health and or anxiety caused by meeting people.  I think if you would feel safer with three weeks rather than two then go with that.  I personally think (for myself, at least) that we'll be doing some sort of human contact over the winter because I think six months sitting indoors on my own is just not going to do me any favours.  Would you feel safer wrapping up well on a cold day and heading out for a walk with her rather than sitting indoors?  I just wondered if you're both flexible enough to meet up only on dry days when you can get out easily enough?
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 20, 2020, 10:40:04 AM
Yes, I'd feel safer outdoors at any point during all this.

Right now, temperatures feel like 99 degrees F, and it's also very humid, so sitting outside doesn't feel possible. The intense heat will break at some point so we'll be able to grab those lovely days and continue meeting outside.

But that's why it came up. This sudden massively hot wave of weather just hit this region so she and I are going through withdrawal from our reliably weekly visits.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 20, 2020, 05:10:13 PM
I'm pretty good with solitary activities and keeping myself entertained. It helps that Hol is around and we do usually connect up with each other once or twice a day. I have a couple different forums I participate in online - and it usually involves friendship now as we've been together as a group for years now. Like here.

One thing I've been doing that's sort of a combo of entertainment and working on myself, is watching a number of tarot readers on youtube. What I find interesting is it's less prediction these days - than digging down into energies that may be assisting or hindering people in their development/healing. There are many many styles of decks these days; and even the readers seem to do different kinds of things. Some claim almost psychic ability through intuition, or they "channel", or claim ye olde spirit guides or angels are sharing messages... kind of thing.

But I have found a handful of readers that seem to be useful as I'm sorting out and trying to release all the old crap that still lingers in my habitual interactions with people. They tend to suggest energy trends and personality traits they see in the cards - to be utilized in that work to become one's "best most authentic self". Some of them tend to use VERY plain language, word to the wise... but not all. Some are quite funny too; others seem to just ooze empathy. They are reading for what they call "the collective" - the group of people by astrological sun, moon or rising sign.

I'm not saying it's a replacement for a good therapist, but if you're working on your own - at that stage of things - you might find it interesting or even insightful in whatever you're currently going through. They tend to stress that no matter what the cards are indicating, one always has free will and choice in the matter - and that not everything in a particular reading will pertain to everyone in that collective.

In the end - it's another thing to do; pass the time while I'm waiting for the heatwave to break and I'm not running the risk of making myself ill trying to do too much physical work in this heat.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on July 26, 2020, 01:06:36 PM
A friend in Georgia has COVID 19. 

I can't say I feel terrified for her.  I have the feeling she'll be OK, even though she has immune issues and is overweight. 


Now I'm focusing on it.... it is pretty scary.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 26, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
A friend in Georgia has COVID 19. 

I can't say I feel terrified for her.  I have the feeling she'll be OK, even though she has immune issues and is overweight. 


Now I'm focusing on it.... it is pretty scary.

Lighter

I hope she's okay, Lighter.  Keep us posted.  I have a friend waiting on a test at the moment after someone who KNEW THEY HAD IT CAME ROUND TO VISIT HER!  Seriously, wtf is wrong with some people?  The cousin of someone else I know has just got off life support; no longer life threatening but still very unwell.  Long recovery time for some, I hear.  And still there are people insisting it's not real.  Mind blowing.  I'll keep everything crossed for her, I hope she is starting to feel better very soon xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 26, 2020, 01:58:14 PM
Ai yi, yi, Lighter, I'm sorry about your friend.
I'm no longer sanguine about anyone of any age just "getting over it" completely, unless they do. Information about that seems all over the map, with some 9-year-olds dying and some seniors surviving, and everything in between. I especially worry about the weird syndromes appearing in kids. Lord knows how that will affect their future health. (Reminds me of the shock I felt when an older friend, who'd had polio and "recovered" long ago when young, and then came down with post-polio syndrome in her 70s. She wound up losing a leg.)

What I find most fearful about the virus is first, the PTSD-inducing torture of an ICU/ventilation experience, and then, should I be "lucky"--the "recovery". Seems to me that once "lucky" people are well enough to be discharged, the statistics are adjusted and bingo, add one to the "survivor" column, happy-happy! But long-term lung or other organ damage path and other issues are still uncharted and unknown. Like permanent emphysema. I just know I wouldn't cope well with either getting OR surviving Covid-19. Not at my age (or mental state). Don't wanna die from it either, but survival is no cupcake at a picnic, as I understand it. How doctors define "recovery" is a very different animal from how I would, with quality of life mattering a lot more than simply continuing to tick.

(All this has a lot to do with the fact that locally, we're still marching steadily upward on the FIRST curve. It's nerve-wracking.)

And how are we going to manage the medical needs of all these "recovered" patients as unknown after-effects kick in later in their lives? With dying economies and civil unrest, and politicians gutting health care? Fingers crossed for November.

Whew, quite a rant.

I was actually coming onto this thread to whine a bit. I'm having a harder time than before breaking up with M, in coping with the isolation. Doing my best to rally myself, but the loll-in-bed-all-day pernicious retreat-behavior has crept up again. I'm pushing back a little and not panicking (I'm up and dressed now, first time in days) -- but it's concerning.

I'm trying to schedule more Zoom chats with friends. I think the biggest temporary problem is that my closest friend's weekly outdoor visits have been shut down by us both for a couple weeks because the heat (high 90s) is just too much for our old selves. So I'm missing that regular connection and support. Heading to the neighbors' for takeout Mexican food outdoors this evening, which I know will help.

Meanwhile, drinking more than I should, and have emotionally-eaten so much I'm up at least 5 pounds since the breakup. (Thank god I don't have a scale.) So...I know things will get better. Just wish the quarantine could end soon for everyone. And I know it can't.

Whiney whiney,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 26, 2020, 02:25:33 PM
Hops, I'm sorry.  Quarantine is hard to cope with, and then adding a break up to it as well is even more difficult.  Glad you are up and about, though, and heading out for food with friends.  I think everything is going to be topsy turvy for a while and we'll all have to muddle along as best we can.  I still think coming out the other side of this with extra weight and a bit sozzled is a better outcome than not getting through it at all but it's still hard to manage and cope with day to day.  I hope it starts to get a little bit easier for more frequent periods of time for you xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on July 28, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
School will be on line the first 3 months here.  It's official.

Youngest needs more social interaction than that.  She had a terrific spend the night birthday party with a school chum last night.  DD just lights up.  There's so much joy for her..... will have to figure out some way to get one or two other kids together for school, I think. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 28, 2020, 03:04:19 PM
Well, my energy for work picked up this week and I engaged my favorite trick to push through and finish something - "something" in this case being that rock wall veneer in the master bedroom. I ordered the hardwood yesterday so now I have a deadline. I can't seem to find modular closet components to suit myself & the design I have in mind... so I'm going to build it myself.

Hol said she hoped she's moved out before I start doing that - LOLOLOL. Her piles of stuff have grown exponentially as she thinks of more things she "needs". But it's like pulling teeth to get the contractor out here to finish; and now the grout in the master shower is wrong - and contractor wants Hol to remove the existing grout (it's silicone based). Her not very happy with him right now.

She is currently assembling an origami paper owl lamp.... LOLOL.

And I still can't get started on B's shop yet. Backhoe guy isn't done with his other job yet. He needs to move the shale & dirt from that spot so I can get a measurement that's somewhat accurate.

If all goes well B will be here in another month. (Having no contact with him is hard; but he's staged a couple of messages to get me though this week. Got a package of balls for Knuckles with a card in it.)

I've had conversations now with the other two principals in the business; and this looks to be another rough month - but it's kind of reassuring that we maybe haven't lost that much MORE ground in July. I'll know in another week or so. My brother actually said it was good I was thinking ahead to the options we have, that we could possibly use to get through this... assuming it doesn't get a LOT worse sales-wise for too long. So that's a comfort; being able to communicate with him in an adult fashion and face facts, as they are - instead of how we wish they were.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 31, 2020, 03:39:58 AM
It's madness here.  I honestly feel like I'm living in another dimension.  Random lockdowns and rule changes are being introduced at very short notice, whilst at the same time people are being told to get back to work.  Shielding deliveries and sick pay are being stopped from today so people who are at risk may have no choice but to go to the shops or back to work themselves.  Masks are now mandatory but not being enforced.  They issued a notice on Twitter - Twitter! - that indoor visits are now banned in certain parts of England because of cases rising, but are keeping the pubs and shops open.  Some businesses are taking social distancing, hand sanitising, contact tracing and so on very seriously, some aren't.  One place even has a sign up telling people they must remove their masks before entering.  Schools are being told to prepare for four different scenarios from September, each of which has to be ready to implement at short notice.  Most schools are re-opening in stages and on part time timetables, so working parents are still not able to rely on them for childcare.  Predictions are milling around that we'll be seeing 1980s level unemployment once the furlough scheme ends as many small businesses won't be able to afford to keep going.  We have the highest death toll in Europe and the third highest in the world, I believe, and Johnson keeps insisting we're doing a great job and has decided now is a good time to launch an obesity campaign - at the same time as launching buy one, get one free meal deals to get people going out to eat.  The daughter of a tax dodging billionaire has been on Twitter giving advice to people on low incomes on how to make meals out of potatoes.  I've genuinely never witnessed anything like it.  And there are still people who think the government is doing a great job!

On the plus side, the area that I live in is (at the moment) without a single diagnosed case.  It's relatively rural so we have a population spread out over a wide area and people have been very careful for the most part so I think that's helped.  We are continuing to stay in, simply because it's a holiday area so people are coming from other parts of the country so that could change but as we're enjoying the staying in that's fine.  I've pretty much given up trying to get a handle on any of it now and have retreated to a world of books and music.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 31, 2020, 09:39:41 AM
I concur Tupp. It's pretty insane - and I might add, the new "guidelines" are entirely unenforceable. Where it's starting to get scary, is we've had some rare, scattered occurances of "self-selected" mask vigilantes shooting people who aren't distancing or wearing masks. Madness may be a side effect of the stupid virus... or perhaps the stupid management of it. I use that word, interchangeably with insane and evil. The differences between all 3 are sometimes extremely subtle.

I wish I could make a good argument for things getting back to normal in X number of months. (For my sake, as well as a pep talk for everyone else.) Given the strong opposing opinions about what is fact or even real (as in data/medical research)... I think we all need to regularly give ourselves a prophilactic dose of "normality" just to keep concern & anxiety feelings in check. When I was grieving hard, I used Game of Thrones for that purpose. It seemed way more "normal" than the world I was experiencing. I know the Tolkein stories - book or film - would do the same. Fact is: Tolkein wrote/created that world as an antidote to the horrors/trauma he experienced in the war. Anything that engages one in imagining things that have clear cause & effect seem to be useful.

And I think it's a strengthening tactic; self-care -- to give yourself those kinds of breaks during times like these. I think that's one reason I got into the Downton Abbey series recently. It was a quietly stable world and I could be engaged in how the characters struggled to keep some tradition vs. adapting to the massive changes around them. Carson & the first telephone in the Abbey is one of the scenes that stuck for me.

One of the hardest things around here has been being able to keep to a regular daily schedule/routine. It's partly 'coz of the kids being here... and their clocks are different than mine. My "new normal" routine that I'd created for myself after moving... was too new to not adapt to whatever was going on around me. It'll be quite interesting to see what B & I come up with after the kids leave my household and start their own.

I'm also doing something I've relied on for a long time - whether with the kids or myself - during long stretches of "undedicated" time... and that's go learn something. The online language sites aren't too terribly expensive; and there are massive amounts of information about science, pioneer skills, history, growing things, animals, etc. that can kill two birds with one stone: you learn something new, keeping that old gray matter flexible and also give yourself a break from trying to solve the puzzles & problems of these "interesting times" we're living in.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 31, 2020, 09:47:13 AM
Quote
I've pretty much given up trying to get a handle on any of it now and have retreated to a world of books and music.

That sounds REALLY healthy to me, Tupp! In my health district (my town with surrounding counties), today's count (updated daily at 10am) is:

16 new cases
1685 total cases
135 hospitalized
31 dead

The "new cases" number on a day has varied from single digits to actually 46 one day (but that may have been a data catch up, not sure). The curve marches steadily upward. Other areas in my state are true "hot spots" with steeper rises. These are the only numbers I watch because for my own decisions I just have to keep it simple. When it's down to 2 or fewer for a couple of weeks, I might come out of my self-quarantine. Until then, staying right here, except for super-careful backyard distanced socializing.

I feel incredibly fortunate that I can have literally everything I need delivered. I wish that were secure for everyone.

It's tragic. Dr. Fauci is testifying right now, and listening to his rational, matter-of-fact voice is a comfort, even though our peril remains. (People in his party keep referring to "the president's plan." That would be the oblivious and indifferent president who started wearing a mask last week after bullying, macho dogwhistles about them for months....)

Stay safe. Enjoy the music and the books. I am positive those are good for the immune system, and most definitely for mental health.

Lastly, I faced yesterday how profoundly out of shape I've gotten. Pushed back in a very small but meaningful way by taking a walk for about 20 minutes this morning. Sounds ridiculous, but psychologically, it was a huge step. I'd gotten paralysed again and my addictive, sedentary avoidance is scarier to me than the virus. I've turned to pudding and I'm too old to risk letting this get any more serious.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 31, 2020, 10:23:21 AM
I concur Tupp. It's pretty insane - and I might add, the new "guidelines" are entirely unenforceable. Where it's starting to get scary, is we've had some rare, scattered occurances of "self-selected" mask vigilantes shooting people who aren't distancing or wearing masks. Madness may be a side effect of the stupid virus... or perhaps the stupid management of it. I use that word, interchangeably with insane and evil. The differences between all 3 are sometimes extremely subtle.

I wish I could make a good argument for things getting back to normal in X number of months. (For my sake, as well as a pep talk for everyone else.) Given the strong opposing opinions about what is fact or even real (as in data/medical research)... I think we all need to regularly give ourselves a prophilactic dose of "normality" just to keep concern & anxiety feelings in check. When I was grieving hard, I used Game of Thrones for that purpose. It seemed way more "normal" than the world I was experiencing. I know the Tolkein stories - book or film - would do the same. Fact is: Tolkein wrote/created that world as an antidote to the horrors/trauma he experienced in the war. Anything that engages one in imagining things that have clear cause & effect seem to be useful.

And I think it's a strengthening tactic; self-care -- to give yourself those kinds of breaks during times like these. I think that's one reason I got into the Downton Abbey series recently. It was a quietly stable world and I could be engaged in how the characters struggled to keep some tradition vs. adapting to the massive changes around them. Carson & the first telephone in the Abbey is one of the scenes that stuck for me.

One of the hardest things around here has been being able to keep to a regular daily schedule/routine. It's partly 'coz of the kids being here... and their clocks are different than mine. My "new normal" routine that I'd created for myself after moving... was too new to not adapt to whatever was going on around me. It'll be quite interesting to see what B & I come up with after the kids leave my household and start their own.

I'm also doing something I've relied on for a long time - whether with the kids or myself - during long stretches of "undedicated" time... and that's go learn something. The online language sites aren't too terribly expensive; and there are massive amounts of information about science, pioneer skills, history, growing things, animals, etc. that can kill two birds with one stone: you learn something new, keeping that old gray matter flexible and also give yourself a break from trying to solve the puzzles & problems of these "interesting times" we're living in.

Aw I love Downton Abbey, Skep!  It's so other worldly and yet so much of it is what people can relate to in their own lives, in terms of their relationships and social standing, etc.  I've been watching enough episodes of Silent Witness and Waking The Dead (BBC dramas) to qualify as a forensic pathologist now :) Yes, I think the 'insanity' of it is that we live in an age of unprecedented knowledge and at a time when that knowledge can be moved around the world in a matter of seconds and yet so many people are rejecting science and information in favour of - I'm not even entirely sure what.  If the economies were thriving anyway then I could understand the approach of allowing a high death rate (I wouldn't agree with it but I would understand that someone made a decision and the decision was to protect the economy).  But the economy's crashed and we have a high death rate and I just can't get my head around that being anything other than catastrophic incompetence.  Such a lack of clarity and consistency.  And yes, it is impossible to know when the virus will be contained (unless you live in New Zealand, it seems), plus we don't know how bad it will be financially for everyone until it has been put back in its box.  We just all need to hunker down and get through it as best we can.

I was never able to get into Game of Thrones, I found it too complicated for my little brain!  But I'm enjoying doing things I haven't had the time or the energy for.  Really listening to music, instead of it just being on in the background.  Reading.  Watching films and box sets.  Sewing, a bit of art work, writing a bit.  I will be digging out the boxes of photos before long to start arranging into albums; it's a job I really enjoy but rarely get time for.  I've been keeping a journal but I wonder if I'll look back on it in years to come and think I must have made some of it up because it doesn't make sense!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 31, 2020, 10:28:35 AM
Quote
I've pretty much given up trying to get a handle on any of it now and have retreated to a world of books and music.

That sounds REALLY healthy to me, Tupp! In my health district (my town with surrounding counties), today's count (updated daily at 10am) is:

16 new cases
1685 total cases
135 hospitalized
31 dead

The "new cases" number on a day has varied from single digits to actually 46 one day (but that may have been a data catch up, not sure). The curve marches steadily upward. Other areas in my state are true "hot spots" with steeper rises. These are the only numbers I watch because for my own decisions I just have to keep it simple. When it's down to 2 or fewer for a couple of weeks, I might come out of my self-quarantine. Until then, staying right here, except for super-careful backyard distanced socializing.

I feel incredibly fortunate that I can have literally everything I need delivered. I wish that were secure for everyone.

It's tragic. Dr. Fauci is testifying right now, and listening to his rational, matter-of-fact voice is a comfort, even though our peril remains. (People in his party keep referring to "the president's plan." That would be the oblivious and indifferent president who started wearing a mask last week after bullying, macho dogwhistles about them for months....)

Stay safe. Enjoy the music and the books. I am positive those are good for the immune system, and most definitely for mental health.

Lastly, I faced yesterday how profoundly out of shape I've gotten. Pushed back in a very small but meaningful way by taking a walk for about 20 minutes this morning. Sounds ridiculous, but psychologically, it was a huge step. I'd gotten paralysed again and my addictive, sedentary avoidance is scarier to me than the virus. I've turned to pudding and I'm too old to risk letting this get any more serious.

hugs
Hops

Well done on that big push and getting out there, Hopsie.  It is hard to push through it and really make yourself take the step but then you know in your mind that you really need to, so it's great that you did it.  I have made a big effort this week to stop eating biscuits, chocolate and toast because my weight has really gone up quickly and it's soooooo hard to lose it again.  So I'm making an effort now - even if it just means I don't get any bigger that will be something.

Yes, the data catch ups are disconcerting.  We have the same here where nothing gets done over the weekend so you have a big surge on a Tuesday that looks scary.  We are lucky that we can have everything delivered as well; the only thing I've been out for is the Post Office but it's a small local one and I was the only person in there so with that and no local cases that felt fairly safe.  Crazy, crazy times.  Really glad I've got you guys along for the journey! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cats paw on July 31, 2020, 12:36:16 PM
Tupp,
 
 If I remember correctly, I read an article that referenced another that had first appeared in something called i-news (I think) in the UK.  It mentioned using the "nudge' to deal with behavior during Covid was like nudging people to obey traffic laws- that surely people would do what they need to do to ensure their own safety.  If only! 
 I guess potatoes are the new cake they can eat.  Madness prevails in the US as well, and it is being enabled.

Amber/Skep,
 I miss Game Of Thrones!  S (husband) and I are watching a ridiculous series on AMC called NOS4A2. We got hooked on the story unfolding.  We also watched Penny Dreadful:City of Angels, and are currently watching the HBO Perry Mason series.  It truly helps to escape for a while.

 Has anyone heard of Brain Pickings?  By reading there, I have spent many pleasant hours down the rabbit hole.
 
Hops- S and I torture ourselves regularly listening to testimonies.  Didn't remember Dr. Fauci was on until I read you saying you were watching.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on July 31, 2020, 10:46:08 PM
My friend,who's ill with COVID, didn't answer my call today, or my text.  I'm trying to remain calm and see what happens without judgment or fear.

The last conversation I had with her was about green burials, oddly enough.  IF she doesn't make it, I'll know exactly what she wanted, down to the smallest details. 

I think that's not a very cheerful outlook, but it was very calming for me.  I decided I can't worry her back to health.  I focused on what I CAN do, and put it on the shelf, grateful she's connected with her sons, who were almost estranged at this point. 

I can't remember WHY we talked about burial services.... who brought it up.   

Lighter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 31, 2020, 11:18:04 PM
CP, yes! Let them eat...potatoes!
We have had quite a few cute life lessons bestowed on the public by the president's vapid craven daughter, whom I profoundly wish would shut up and go apply cosmetics alone in her bathroom for the rest of her life.

Tupp...great music, great books, great music, great books.

Lighter...I hope your friend will be okay. You don't need to be in charge of her burial if she dies. You don't have to be in charge of anything.

[EDIT: That sounded blunt! Sorry. What I was thinking is that unless a family reaches out and asks, do you know her burial wishes? -- it might be intrusive to imply that unless they do a green burial (not easily managed everywhere) they'll not be honoring her, based on your conversation with her but not her own conversations with her family or her own personal documentation of such wishes....to feel compelled to offer this info based on one enthusiastic conversation--mushroom suits!--might actually bring additional stress into their grief. That's all. Perhaps you could just offer sympathy and support.]

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 01, 2020, 02:56:17 AM
Tupp,
 
 If I remember correctly, I read an article that referenced another that had first appeared in something called i-news (I think) in the UK.  It mentioned using the "nudge' to deal with behavior during Covid was like nudging people to obey traffic laws- that surely people would do what they need to do to ensure their own safety.  If only! 
 I guess potatoes are the new cake they can eat.  Madness prevails in the US as well, and it is being enabled.

Amber/Skep,
 I miss Game Of Thrones!  S (husband) and I are watching a ridiculous series on AMC called NOS4A2. We got hooked on the story unfolding.  We also watched Penny Dreadful:City of Angels, and are currently watching the HBO Perry Mason series.  It truly helps to escape for a while.

 Has anyone heard of Brain Pickings?  By reading there, I have spent many pleasant hours down the rabbit hole.
 
Hops- S and I torture ourselves regularly listening to testimonies.  Didn't remember Dr. Fauci was on until I read you saying you were watching.

What is the Perry Mason one like, CP?  I saw it advertised but haven't watched it yet.  CSI is on back to back this afternoon so that will be me taken care of - project in lap and not eating biscuits because I really must stop :)

Yes, nudging.  I think you could take a bulldozer to some and it still wouldn't be enough.  A friend of mine is a psychologist (retired).  He reckons that a lot of people have addictions but they're to things that are socially acceptable - work, dinner out on a Friday, weekends by the sea and so on.  He feels that's the reason that some people will take risks they don't need to - I might catch this illness and pass it on to someone else or become ill myself but I have a need to go to the beach this weekend because the sun's out and that's what I do.  I get it with younger people (that certainty of youth; I used to have it and feeling invincible is amazing) but I'm baffled by people in my age group who have a nice home, nice garden, family they live with and enough money to order in, keep the kids entertained, redecorate - and they still need to go shopping.  I can only say I'm very grateful that I don't feel that need and am happy at home watching TV and chit chatting to you guys on here :) xx

I haven't heard of Brain Pickings, I will have to have a look out for that, thanks! x
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 01, 2020, 02:59:46 AM
My friend,who's ill with COVID, didn't answer my call today, or my text.  I'm trying to remain calm and see what happens without judgment or fear.

The last conversation I had with her was about green burials, oddly enough.  IF she doesn't make it, I'll know exactly what she wanted, down to the smallest details. 

I think that's not a very cheerful outlook, but it was very calming for me.  I decided I can't worry her back to health.  I focused on what I CAN do, and put it on the shelf, grateful she's connected with her sons, who were almost estranged at this point. 

I can't remember WHY we talked about burial services.... who brought it up.   

Lighter

I think you're right to focus on what you can do, Lighter.  It's hard when people are poorly, we often feel so helpless.  Many people have reported extreme fatigue with this so it may be she's sleeping a lot.  She'll be glad to see your text whenever she does, I'm sure.  I'll keep my fingers crossed that she gets better soon and yes, it's good that her sons are back in her life.

I think a lot of people have been discussing burial options and making sure their wills are up to date just now.  It does focus your mind on those sort of things, unfortunately.  But hopefully you knowing won't matter because she'll be getting better soon xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 02, 2020, 11:55:08 AM
My friend is on antibiotics for double pneumonia, but holding her own.  She's not been hospitalized.  Her 2 sons haven't been dx'd with COVID, but the doc said they're likely asymptomatic and infected.  No one seems to care.  No one is tracing contacts.  No one is enforcing quarantine.  No one is following up.  The oldest son left yesterday.... he's likely spreading the virus.  The doc said it's unlikely people can be in that close proximity, in a household like that, and not get COVID.

I was relieved to hear she's recovering.  Unhappy to see what a miserable job the US is doing with controlling COVID.

My sister and niece were required to qaurantine in Canada for 2 weeks under penalty of fines and prison time.  People are doing pop in visits to check and enforce quarantine for people traveling to and from the USA.  I wonder how they're handling those dx'd with COVID.  Better than we are, it's assumed.

Hops, if my Georgia friend were to pass away, I believe her children would want to know her wishes, if she's not already made them known.  She was planning to visit the monks and purchase her site, but she had to move first.

Maybe she wrote it down, like you said, Tupp.  I haven't brought it up, bc I don't think she's frightened right now.  I don't want her to be frightened.  She knows she has many of the problems associated with poor outcomes for COVID patients.   

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on August 02, 2020, 10:26:44 PM
Its sad but yes people are just letting it run it's course but still if people have it they should be diagnosed so they can stay home. So many people just don't care.

The situation is past the containment option and yet it's no reason to be careless.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on August 03, 2020, 03:20:37 PM
I don't think this can be contained - anymore than the common cold virus can be. Too many doctors & nurses observing the strictest protocols are getting ill. So many of the tests are coming up false positive or false negative... asymptomatic as a descriptor may not even be accurate. Drives me a bit nutz. But even the docs I know are hard pressed to nail down a diagnosis - with thorough testing. And there are - from the same docs - lots of head-scratching questions about why some of their elderly patients with underlying conditions are recovering, while heathy younger people are quickly succumbing.

Makes me think this virus is mostly harmless - UNTIL there is certain genetic feature that is the switch for the virus to turn deadly. But no; no one knows yet if there is such a thing (the researchers ARE looking; genetic research takes awhile).

The only thing I know for sure, is that our location/lifestyle has been preventative. Exactly what variable it is - number of people in a smaller geographical area or what - that makes the probabiity for getting sick go up, I've not no ideas. And I DO think about it a lot. Masks don't seem to be a guaranteed preventative; but I still wear mine in certain places. After working for years in a large campus building with lots of students/faculty in and out of it - and also open to the public, I've suspected HVAC systems of spreading germs for a long time... but no, there's no proof of that either. Maybe it's just a higher percentage of oxygen exchange in our rural location that's helping my state keep our numbers so low.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 04, 2020, 10:20:20 AM
I think more rural areas are doing better, Skep, certainly here the towns and cities are much worse than the coastal and rural areas.  I think just more space and I wonder if people in more rural areas tend to stick to their own 'groups' more than city dwellers are able to (in the sense that they're probably not sharing public transport and public toilets in the same way that city fold would be).  It is a head scratcher.

There was a paper out here just recently that one group of researchers think some people have better T cell immunity - built up through the common cold and 'normal' flu - which apparently Covid is a part of.  They think that might be why some higher risk people are getting better while some fit and healthy ones aren't.  Not proven at this point, though - I'm not sure anything is at the moment.

We have just been in to town on the bus for the first time in four months and I'm really not keen to repeat it too often.  They've done a good job of arranging the library to make it safer but most shops just don't have the room.  The pubs and cafes are all packed, there's loads of holiday traffic on the roads (vehicles overflowing with camping stuff and loads of caravans) and it just isn't possible to always keep away from people, however careful you are.  We didn't go near the shops so I don't know if people are wearing masks much or not but it's not possible to wear a mask when you eat and drink so whether wearing it in a shop is going to help with so many in pubs like that I just don't know.  I'm very, very glad that I don't have to work somewhere like that and equally glad that we just don't have to go out very much.  It was nice to go to the library though, son got a book about coping during a Virus Outbreak!  It's a fiction one and kind of like a puzzle in a book; different scenarios are described and you have to pick an option.  That takes you to a different chapter and you work through it like that.

Lighter how is your friend getting on, is she starting to feel better now? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 04, 2020, 01:35:44 PM
Oh,  what a delight, Tupp. To have your new box set, a nice visit to the library... sounds like they figured out how to stay safe, and son really enjoying himself.... doing well..... flowing: )

My friend has good and bad days.  It's all over the board, but she sounds pretty good.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 13, 2020, 05:48:50 AM
Oh,  what a delight, Tupp. To have your new box set, a nice visit to the library... sounds like they figured out how to stay safe, and son really enjoying himself.... doing well..... flowing: )

My friend has good and bad days.  It's all over the board, but she sounds pretty good.

Lighter

Is she doing better overall, Lighter?  I keep hearing that the long term from Covid can be tough, even if you get a mild case.  I do keep wondering if it is what I had back in December.  So many people talking about the possibility it was here earlier than we thought.  I was very unwell over Christmas - dry cough, high temp, awful chest and I was still struggling by the March, just couldn't quite shake it off.  Hard without knowing enough about any of it.  So much is still speculation.

But we have some good news - the area I am in is in the five least affected areas in the country.  Only four cases recorded last week, one the week before that.  One death.  The local population is around the 90,000 people mark so that's pretty good going.  We've had loads of holidaymakers down here but it doesn't seem to have caused a big jump in numbers.  Definitely nowhere near as bad as it was.  Some people feel it will just burn itself out.  I would love for that to be the case.  I'm still not rushing to go anywhere - health appointments, library, cinema from next month once the kids have gone back to school.  I think people are taking care.  But it's nice to feel more relaxed about it.  It feels more relaxed in general; I think the precautions have become more normal for people now so the anxiety over masks and hand sanitiser seems to have reduced.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 13, 2020, 10:41:36 AM
Tupp:

THAT IS GREAT NEWS!  Yes!  Lower numbers are a really good thing to read, aren't they.

I have the name of a UK company selling what appears to be new 30 day wear masks that don't heat up, don't muffle sound and keep the virus from getting in or getting out... not sure if it KILLS it or not,  but friend in medical field said, exactly.  The site says they're reusable self disinfecting proven to kill 99.9% of viruses and bacteria continuously for 30 days.  WHOO HOO, friend said he did the research... has the seal of approval from the right agencies.

Can you get them where you are... have them delivered?  Maybe they're somewhere close to you, on a shelf?

INVISISMART MASKS.... get the 30 day ones... ISM30,  not the 5 day ones... almost same price, for heaven's sake.  They also have shields you might find necessary as well.

I pay 10.00 in shipping and masks seem to be a little over 10.00 each, so maybe you'll find a much better deal there?

The site also says they're 4 layer surgical grade....look them up if you feel it's worth your time.

I have some ordered... back ordered, rather. 

Lighter



 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 13, 2020, 12:26:41 PM
Alas, cases here are still going up every day.
And worse, the local university is opening up for fall semester.
So there's a bit of dread building about how many thousands of more vectors for spread are about to arrive.

The U. really does not care about the local community, though it pretends to.

Beyond stupid decision, as students carouse recklessly all over town and have done so forever. I just don't think some people are mature enough to restrain themselves.

More, longer, tiring, demoralizing quarantine months ahead. In the cold.

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 13, 2020, 12:47:35 PM
Tupp:

My friend seems to be doing better.  I hope she doesn't have any of the dreaded damage to her heart or lungs experienced by some.

She's in the high risk category for several reasons.

((Hops:))

It will be a dark cold winter, but we'll all be here for you. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 13, 2020, 01:49:33 PM
I'm glad your friend is doing better too, ((((((Lighter))))).

And thanks very much for your kindness about my winter dread.
It's creeping up on me.

(Note to self: Counter-intuitive or NOT, those affected by SAD need to start using their lights in AUGUST! The brain notices a subtle change in light even when it's still hot summer outside.)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 13, 2020, 02:24:25 PM
Tupp:

THAT IS GREAT NEWS!  Yes!  Lower numbers are a really good thing to read, aren't they.

I have the name of a UK company selling what appears to be new 30 day wear masks that don't heat up, don't muffle sound and keep the virus from getting in or getting out... not sure if it KILLS it or not,  but friend in medical field said, exactly.  The site says they're reusable self disinfecting proven to kill 99.9% of viruses and bacteria continuously for 30 days.  WHOO HOO, friend said he did the research... has the seal of approval from the right agencies.

Can you get them where you are... have them delivered?  Maybe they're somewhere close to you, on a shelf?

INVISISMART MASKS.... get the 30 day ones... ISM30,  not the 5 day ones... almost same price, for heaven's sake.  They also have shields you might find necessary as well.

I pay 10.00 in shipping and masks seem to be a little over 10.00 each, so maybe you'll find a much better deal there?

The site also says they're 4 layer surgical grade....look them up if you feel it's worth your time.

I have some ordered... back ordered, rather. 

Lighter

Thanks Lighter, we're sorted for masks and are literally only going out once a week at most and we're not inside for more than about twenty minutes so I feel we really are pretty low risk now, as the numbers locally are so low.  I do feel lucky that we don't have to go out much and we're both such happy bunnies indoors :) I'm glad your friend seems to be doing better now, fingers crossed she continues to improve xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 13, 2020, 02:28:25 PM
Alas, cases here are still going up every day.
And worse, the local university is opening up for fall semester.
So there's a bit of dread building about how many thousands of more vectors for spread are about to arrive.

The U. really does not care about the local community, though it pretends to.

Beyond stupid decision, as students carouse recklessly all over town and have done so forever. I just don't think some people are mature enough to restrain themselves.

More, longer, tiring, demoralizing quarantine months ahead. In the cold.

Hops

I'm sorry the numbers are going up, Hops.  It is a big worry, especially with winter coming and yes, the worry here has been holiday makers bringing it with them so I can understand the concern about University students arriving in large numbers.  The tip about using your lamp early on is a welcome reminder; I will dig mine out and start plugging it in.  I'm already noticing how quickly the evenings are starting to draw in and I know I dip quite a bit over the winter.  We should at least have a car by then so we can drive somewhere quiet to go for a walk which will at least get us out of the house each day (or even if we just go for a drive if the weather's awful).  And yes, as Lighter, says, we'll all be here for you, not the same as 3D humans I know but we'll be here all the same (lamp's plugged in and Vitamin D supplements on the go!) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 13, 2020, 02:31:42 PM
Hops,
From what I've heard, the locals are just about as nervous about the university NOT opening, since the students are a significant source of income. It's a real quandary. I wish it had just been done right to begin with--testing, tracing, sheltering in place based on numbers. My kids in the school system are going to have to go back, and the rest of us are going to be cooped up for the foreseeable future.

This is like a really poorly written dystopian novel.

CB

Amen to that, CB.  It's been so badly handled here as well, tens of thousands dead, many left with long term complications and we're just entering recession again, apparently.  So neither lives nor the economy saved and goodness only knows how many will be left with long term mental health damage from all the worry and stress.  Stupid people running a country less effectively than most people run their homes, it melts my brain xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 13, 2020, 03:22:25 PM
I hear you, CB.
And economic pain is horrible.
We may see a tide of homeless families unprecedented since the Great Depression, unless a new administration dips deep into military overspending and rescues ordinary people who can't make rent. Hoping and praying.

As to the students, this is a very large university attended by many many privileged kids. It also has a long and well-earned reputation as a "party school." I think locals feel resentful because in our experience, drunken loutish fraternity behavior has dominated many areas of town for many years. And their lack of judgement is scary.

If I had younguns, I would decree a fascinating year of camping--rent a van or RV or whatever, and keep their brains busy on the highway with loads of serious reading. No devices, or all devices locked up except for an hour in the evening. I think a year like that would be amazing for most youngsters and "losing" formal schooling for a year is not as great a disaster as it's made out to be.

I could be wrong but I think attachment to status quo (including mine) hobbles the imagination. But then again, there are parents who must work and who can't afford a FT daytime alternative for their kids. I just can't imagine what it's like for them, or for teachers, saddled with the responsibility for protecting kids' families from take-home deadly virus while still underpaid and worried about their own. The STRESS of all those scenarios is ungodly, ime.

So, it really as usual all depends on class. It's what you can afford for your kids, not just the list of options. Sigh.

Hugs and end of rant,
Hops

hugs
HOps
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 14, 2020, 06:13:01 AM
I hear you on the class/income level differences, Hops.  It's much the same here.  Lower paid workers have had to work on throughout this, many self employed didn't qualify for help (not sure why as I didn't read up on the criteria), many have had to apply for benefits and have discovered, quite abruptly, that it's not the luxurious gravy train the papers keep insisting it is.  I'm purposely, for the first time in my life, not reading up on what might happen to people and all the personal stories of how people are being affected.  I just need to try to focus on myself and my son and not get side tracked by the things that I can't do anything about.  It just upsets me so I'm trying to avoid but yes, there's so much unfairness and I wish more people could see that having more support for people yields good results.

In coronavirus news, we've been in to town this morning to go to the library and it feels much more normal.  I think people are just getting used to it all now.  Most people have masks on, there's hand sanitiser all over the place, people are doing their best to distance.  All the shop staff are set up with visors and/or masks and it doesn't feel as weird and tense as it did.  The new normal, I think.  It is funny how quickly we get used to doing things differently.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 16, 2020, 04:18:56 PM
Oh CB, I'm so very sorry. I hope it's not true.

Whatever comes, I hope for the best outcome.
And that you all can find calmness in spite of fear.

What a shitty thing to be forced to try not to think about!

Is he waiting for test results? Any idea how long?

Hugs and comfort,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 16, 2020, 08:40:44 PM
Oh, CB.... I hope it's not COVID, and if it is, I hope both son and partner will be fine.

Lighter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 17, 2020, 06:05:48 AM
Keeping everything crossed, CB, that it's a bug and not Covid and that it passes quickly.  Such a worry and impossible not to worry, I think.  Thinking of all of you and sending much love xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 18, 2020, 07:15:43 PM
Medical detection dogs are undergoing training (small group so far) to detect the odor of Covid-19. In early tests, they detected it apart from other scents 97% of the time! (Washington Post today.)

Long way to go before it's operational in airports, schools, etc (much less having enough trained dogs) but it's lovely news.

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 18, 2020, 10:40:40 PM
(((((CB)))))

I'm so glad you know how to release that worry, and what wisdom that is.

I'll be thinking of you and them, with lots of love.

Hugs and comfort,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 19, 2020, 02:30:10 AM
They STILL hadnt gone in to be tested and I suggested that he go in and get tested for STREP, since that also has sorethroat, headache and fever. I figured they would be tested automatically for covid with those symptoms, and they might have been, but the strep test is positive so he is getting treated for that.

Getting info out of them is like pulling teeth. I dont think they want to worry me--he has apparently been sick for over a week without saying anything to me.  Anyway, I'm hopeful that strep is all it is. Also that I get another chance to talk to them soon to see if the covid test was done. 

Thanks for all your encouragement. I am just laying down my worry. Theres' nothing I can do.

CB
[/quote

I find I worry more when I don't know what is going on, CB, and my son is very similar - getting an answer out of him about anything more complex than "do you want a biscuit" is such hard work.  I get they don't want you to worry but it's so hard not to.  I will keep my fingers crossed it is strep and nothing else.  I think one of the concerns here with winter on the way is that people will have to assume it may be Covid whenever they get a cough or cold and the docs will be swamped.  It's still such a worrying and stressful time.  I hope your son and partner are both feeling better soon and that you will be able to relax a bit xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 19, 2020, 01:39:35 PM
CB:

Are you surprised it's Strep?  I was surprised.  Is that going around now too?

I know there's a checklist of symptoms requiring mandatory COVID testing.  If he had enough symptoms for it, they likely did the test.

I hope your son recovers quickly.  Strep is so painful, IME.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 22, 2020, 12:51:45 PM
Well it's getting me down now.  Basically the situation here now is that you can pretty much do what you want - some things are still shut but most are open - people aren't supposed to be meeting at each other's houses but of course they are - but the virus is very much here and very much continuing.  Generally diagnosing upwards of a thousand cases a day and that of course will be fewer cases than there are because there will be the people who don't show symptoms and people who are a bit unwell but don't get a test because they can't afford to take more time off work.  So to keep safe we still need to stay home as much as possible and keep our distance if we do go out and that will be until they get a vaccine (if they get a vaccine) or until the virus dies out on its own (which apparently can happen?).

I'm still glad we're not rushing about like we were.  The money we've been able to save is a bonus, as is the clarity of thinking I'm experiencing.  Son and I are both experiencing better health than usual, although we have both put on a bit of weight.  If we can get a car at the end of next month that will help.  But the reality of it likely being another year before I can hug someone, if not longer, kind of hit me today and that's got me down a bit now.  If my lottery win comes in we're moving to New Zealand pronto!

CB, did you have any more news from your son yet? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 22, 2020, 02:26:31 PM
That has to be tough, Tupp.  Wanting hugs, and needing physical contact during quarantine.  I hug my girls, quite a bit, but don't miss the hugs from tipsy neighbors.   

On the TV Reality Show, Alone,  (Season 7) where 10 people go out into the Canadian Arctic for 100 days on their own, if they can make it, and live off the land while filming themselves.   There was an episode where one of the female contestants missed human contact.  A dead rabbit, she'd trapped, was hanging by her head, and she unconsciously reached for a paw..... then hesitantly pulled it to her face as she wept, and cuddled it without shame.  So very touching. 

I wonder if you can create a happy place, for yourself,  with people you love and feel supported by.  To meet up with, and hug, and maybe swim or build fires with, whatever is comforting to you. 

When we visualize something, our minds actually believe we're IN THAT PLACE. 

I'll be one of your virtual huggers, (((Tupp.)))

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on August 23, 2020, 12:07:33 AM
Resorted to hugging dead rabbits eh, that's about my speed. Thanks I need that as a confirmation that all humans are liable to be strange and crazy under certain circumstances.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on August 23, 2020, 12:16:21 AM
I'm down also Two, very sad past few weeks. Jealous of a couple having a charmed life, if only I could stop stalking them on instagram. Sigh. Mature no, so what. But really I've managed to fall into some deeper sadness than I expected. It happens, there is hardly any fighting it. But it contributes to my procrastination and anxiety etc. It's a messy snarl of shadows. Being sad is like having a shadow the size of a whale sucking all your light out. I'm trying to just be one with the darkness, nothing else can be done until it decides to drift off again.

Plus being sad means one is bad company.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 23, 2020, 10:00:54 AM
((((Tupp)))) and ((((((Garbanzo))))). Let's do that again. Bring it in, girls.

I'm very sorry. I think it really is different now and hitting people at a new level.
For six months, many people have been on an almost-adventure with quarantine,
at least some of the time. Full of bright smart declarations about vaccines
and treatments and best masks and so forth, topped off with dismay about
the lack of pulling together in the population AND incompetence in gov't.

But now. Now it's more like oh...that wasn't just a different period, this
may be a different era. Nature has her foot on our necks right now and humanity
is getting humbled.

About the touching--I wish I could hug each of you. Every day.
The only coping I can think of so far, for myself, is to persistently keep alert
to the possibility of Zooming my way to new friendships/relationships, that might
eventually lead to a safe "pod."

A committed "pod" agreement with somebody (such as I had with M).
We just had a commitment to do the same level of precautions consistently so after quarantining in our own places for three weeks, we felt safe with each other (hugging) and at each others' homes. It was nice while it lasted. Now, with less intimate connections, it's harder to find that fit. For example, I'd thought that many people my age would already be on board with seriously cautious behavior about the risks. But with one friend I discussed "pod" with, he mentioned that he went into the store recently because he "needed" a taste of blue cheese. Then we talked about how that wasn't a need but a craving. Hmmm. Bottom line,
I have many friends who still see grocery shopping in person as a need, not
a want. (It's a sensuous pleasure or positive experience they are convinced
is necessary. And perhaps it is, for their mental health. I'm the opposite--it's a chore and I can do without it.) I Shall Meet Needs Through Delivery and Amazon, Period. Nobody dies if somebody else picks out my zucchini. But I've learned to accept more than judge....because it really is true that different people have different levels of risk tolerance. Mine is intentionally very low on this, maybe because of my emergency hospitalization a year ago; with covid that'd be even more intense and that was scary enough.

And if the distress of going to stores or out in the community is exacerbated by some others being anti-civil or anti-social, then rather than rant, I'd just rather put my focus into figuring out what I can. I'm now doing Zoom dates with friends and it really does help. Physically, I can shrink my world to my street for walks, and a couple neighbors who's yards I safely sit in now and then or vice versa. It's good enough.

I have also heard of people establishing intentional pods with a couple of
friends, etc. Most often it's younger families, so the kids can play, but it
is rational with anyone. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few months we hear
about older people, solo people who live alone, all sorts of people finding
ways to set up small pods. Whether or not they're hugging pods, just to
know you can sit in someone's LR and watch a movie together, would help.
Or vice versa.

Meanwhile, I'm so grateful we have this place in space. To open up
our ribs and share how hard it is. And toning down the self-congratulation
when we do find solutions. There's always someone who deserves
easing of the pain of isolation just as much as we do, but who is unable to access the solutions we all read about (or write about).

The other thing I often think of is animals. People who are able to find or rescue an amimal really do have something to love. Physically and daily. Most people of privilege here who need one or more pets already have them, and it's harder for others to acquire them as shelters in many places were rapidly emptied. But the reality is that new strays of all sorts are born every day. Old folks who live alone need people who can take in their pooches if they become ill. Rabbits breed and guinea pigs are sweet and affectionate. Rats are also affectionate and smart. Even some turtles express pleasure at a nice head rub. Everything alive needs love.

So if it's a budgiepuppybunnykitty (go for a lot of walks and always have treats and a soft leash in your pocket)...there is something living out there right now who could come home with you and fill that hole in your heart. For me, the next animal to love will be a senior pooch. I have a friend doing that now for a "hospice dog" and she will do it again. I will teach myself to do bonding and releasing.

I personally don't believe in treating old animals for cancer and such (unless it's a superficial tumor that can be surgically removed). People are always ignoring the fact that domesticated animals are STOIC and don't complain vocally about their pain. Yet some almost brag about putting pets through chemo. Digression, sorry.

My next-pet ideas (Pooch is fine, just aging) include:
--Asking my vet to keep me in mind when he hears about small pooches that may need a place
--Sending a letter to the Directors of a few Assisted Living communities, likewise (with references). Some residents have small pets and that's always an issue when the resident is moved to memory or nursing care.
--Asking a reputable rescue group how I can volunteer (they put you at top of list)

I wish I could fix this, guys. I'm just rambling on about ways to find hope and hugs and love, because that's the only actual solution to the sorrow, imo. And we each have to haul ourselves forward toward what we need. I wish I could pack it up in a box and send it to each of you.

love and hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 23, 2020, 10:09:09 AM
This is what's happening, without the tribalism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/covid-risks-stop-seeming-so-scary/2020/08/21/09c286c4-cc49-11ea-bc6a-6841b28d9093_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories-2_covidnumbed-930am-dm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/covid-risks-stop-seeming-so-scary/2020/08/21/09c286c4-cc49-11ea-bc6a-6841b28d9093_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories-2_covidnumbed-930am-dm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 23, 2020, 12:23:36 PM
This is also what's happening...watch, I promise you won't be sorry!
Hugs, Hops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=h_7jvxBObaw&feature=emb_logo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=h_7jvxBObaw&feature=emb_logo)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 23, 2020, 03:13:51 PM
I couldn't help but twinge to this bit, in a NYTimes story about "Are New Yorkers Wearing Masks?" today:

---------------------
The mask rule Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo handed down on April 15 leaves some room for interpretation. It requires that those over age 2 who can medically tolerate covering their mouths and noses do so “when in a public place and unable to maintain, or when not maintaining, social distance,” which is understood as six feet from other people.

But if you walk by someone and happen to pass within four feet for a split second, does that count as being “unable to maintain” social distance? Who knows. At the corners where we did our counts, sometimes people were closer than six feet apart. Sometimes they weren’t.

But in almost every place, more men than women were walking around unmasked — usually a lot more: At some corners, the gender gap approached 25 percentage points.

Men were also considerably more likely than women to be wearing their masks in a kinda-sorta way — nostrils peeking over, mask under chin, mask dangling from one ear strap.

Setting aside these partial mask-wearers, and those holding masks in hand — all of whom arguably deserve some credit if they mask up fully when approaching a crowd — the numbers boiled down to this: Nearly one in three men were walking around unmasked, while only about one in six women were.
-----------------------------------

Please, Lawd. Balance male privilege/domination in the running of the world, and the world will get better. Right? (And I needn't add that I love men. Ahhh doooo.)

Sigh,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 24, 2020, 05:52:33 AM
Thank you Lighter, Hops, G :)  Much appreciated.  Sorry that you are going through a sad phase as well, G.  And for the picture perfect instagram couple :)  I do know what you mean, it's easy to go to fantasy land when reality is really not something that's giving you much to feel inspired by or hope for.  I keep losing myself in box sets and day dreaming about places we can visit and live in - no practicality involved, I just like the idea of it.  I'm personally glad to be single just now; I think the stress of either another person home all the time because they can't work or worrying about what they're bringing in because they are going out to work would probably be getting to me by now.  I think it was just the long term reality catching up with me.  12 weeks of shielding was a joyous holiday.  Loved it, felt much better for it, son just blossomed and it was great.  Restrictions were eased but the virus was still present so we continued to stay home and it has still been fine.  I like being in, I enjoy not having to deal with people and stress every day and we've had our little visits to the library.  We both have lots to do at home so from a practical point of view it's really not been a problem.  But we're now six months in to it and it's clearly still here and still spreading - over 1,000 cases a day being diagnosed so although we can go out to certain places relatively safely (open parks for walks, people are being very careful on buses so we can get to the library and we are going to the cinema this week - lots of restrictions in place and very few people attending so I feel comfortable doing that and son is over the moon) we can't safely visit our friends or have them visit us and that's the bit that basically, we won't be able to do until, not only they get a vaccine, but until they get everyone vaccinated!  How long will it take to vaccinate 60 odd million people?  Will we be at the front of the queue because we're more vulnerable or will that put us to the back of the queue because we're not 'economically active' and so we're no use to the economy?  A little thought keeps popping into my head that I might be fifty before I hug my friends again and I keep pushing it out but it's loitering on the edges.  G, I loved what you said about it being 'a messy snarl of shadows'.  Perfect description.  There are things we can do but I don't particularly want to do them, it's hugging and spending time with people I love that I'm really starting to feel a need for.

Masks are being used pretty widely where we are, Hops.  I suspect more men know they're less likely to be harassed for not wearing one than a woman would be (and interesting that people observing more men not wearing them but more women refusing to wear them being posted on the internet).  We are still relatively low numbers here (27 cases out of a population of about 95,000) with no deaths in the last week, but we had zero cases a few weeks ago so I suspect the holidaymakers are bringing it with them, or people are picking it up when they venture further afield and bringing it back.  I do wish they'd just imposed 'staycation' only holidays on people.  I think we'd have seen cases drop much more quickly if people were having to stay in their local areas and just use local facilities.  It is what it is.  Anyway, the feelings are passing, I think sometimes the reality of it just kicks in - it's here to stay and we had a chance to get ahead of it that wasn't taken.  Frustrating, to say the least.  Thank you for the virtual hugs, everyone xx xx xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 24, 2020, 10:45:12 AM
((((((((CB)))))))))) I hope your son and partner are alright.  Big kids are sometimes more of a worry than little ones because you can't stick them in front of the telly with some sweets and keep an eye on them.  I'm very lucky that my son is home with me.  Yes, I hear you on the eating out!  We're not big on that either but yep, I don't think I cooked a proper meal last week, it was all oven ready stuff because I just couldn't be bothered with the cooking and the washing up.  Our local chippie is doing deliveries though and their fish and chips are fab so we've got that.  Schools go back next week here so I think everyone is waiting to see what happens with that.  I am hoping that it doesn't lead to a big rise in cases but only time will tell.  We're in it for the long haul, aren't we?  I do think that really sunk in with me until just recently.  I hope you are doing okay CB xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 30, 2020, 08:21:20 AM
((((CB)))),
Any update on son's partner, and the rest of your children?

And more importantly, how are you? How is the quarantine time feeling or shifting for you too?

I think a lot of people are shifting into phase two of isolation, as Tupp described above....the first few months of solitude and quiet were a boon to many, and now there's like a new big wave of unease as the virus surges again. So many people are beginning to slowly reckon with a sense that maybe it's temporary, a lot of these profound life changes, and maybe they're not.

I don't know the answer, but I don't think anybody's psychologically prepared for a full shift. I certainly am not, or haven't been coping well with it lately.

This morning's our first COOL morning and as lovely as it is, I'm going to have to work hard not to freak out. As it gradually makes outdoor meetings less likely.

I know where you are you've still got warmth...how cold does it actually get? About when?

love
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on August 31, 2020, 08:36:23 AM
Well, now I'm reading that the CDC's numbers were seriously overstated, as to the attribution of cause of death to Covid. Hol brought that up over the weekend too, from the standpoint that there is no consistent way of reporting into the aggregate database from each state... so the garbage in/garbage out data rule applies too.

More fog, uncertainty, vagueness and confusion.
I'll stick with stuff I know, I think: water is wet, sun is warm, my mosquito bite itches. LOLOLOL.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 07, 2020, 03:55:24 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/deep-cleans-and-disinfecting-mists-might-not-keep-us-from-getting-the-virus-but-they-sure-make-us-feel-better/2020/09/05/f428b8ee-e965-11ea-97e0-94d2e46e759b_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_covidtheater-730am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/deep-cleans-and-disinfecting-mists-might-not-keep-us-from-getting-the-virus-but-they-sure-make-us-feel-better/2020/09/05/f428b8ee-e965-11ea-97e0-94d2e46e759b_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_covidtheater-730am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)

Short version: It's AEROSOL.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 10, 2020, 05:05:46 AM
I went to visit my sister earlier in the week.  Numbers where she and I live are pretty low and the kids were starting back to school this week, so we thought we'd try to get a meet up in before they all went back, in case the numbers shot up when that happened.  We had a really lovely time and I'm very glad we did it when we did as she's just messaged me to say they've already shut down two year groups and they only started going back Monday, on a staggered timetable (this isn't at a school her kids attend but one nearby).  Positive test results have risen very sharply over the last couple of weeks, much of it being attributed to people going away on holiday and bringing it back with them.  I'm kind of just avoiding all but unavoidable news about it now.  In all honesty the way governments, the media and many people have behaved just makes me feel that there's no hope for the human race so I'm concentrating on just doing my thing and not fussing about what anyone else is doing anymore.  That feels healthier to me just now.  We had zero cases across the county last week in July - first week in September we have 53.  It's not a huge number compared to many other parts of the country but it's bigger than zero.  Zero makes me happy.  It just feels like a kick in the teeth for all the people who've worked hard all the way through, whether by staying home or by continuing their jobs in shops, hospitals, bin collection and so on.  All that hard work undone.  We're lucky that our only outdoor things are either walking in open spaces or places where precautions are being taken and are easy to follow so we'll stick with that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 10, 2020, 11:37:59 AM
Hey Amber,

YOU'RE well grounded in reality, I know! But just in case you run across other misinterpretations like that on forums or social media and you want to boost the dialogue, this is a really helpful site:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/cdc-hasnt-reduced-covid-19-death-toll/ (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/cdc-hasnt-reduced-covid-19-death-toll/)

May fall on deaf ears, of course, since most of us have them stuffed with politics these days (Note to self....). It is frustrating how politicized the pandemic has become. Tragic and deadly.

One reason I fixate on sources was when I worked for Prevention Health Books we were trained for months in proper sourcing about health claims. (Interesting, because when the company began they published a lot of uncritical, unstudied claims --"drink this herb tea to cure....275 different ailments" -- "everything alternative is better for you than everything conventional/Western" --etc.). But years ago they smartened up and made every single article or book chapter science- and evidence-based. It was a requirement and they took it very seriously. We interviewed loads of top-level researchers, doctors, credentialed health experts and footnoted every single declarative statement about anything we recommended you should put IN your body or do WITH your body, for health. Natural and alternative were fine, but even without Western-standard evidence, we were willing to add it in if something was known to be safe, even if the mechanisms weren't well understood (like acupuncture). If something was merely opinion or anecdotal, but known to be safe, we made clear with the language that it wasn't rigorously proven though it MIGHT or MAY be beneficial.

I ate it up. I loved the responsibility of using language that way, and believing with the books that we were helping people (as well as making profit).

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 13, 2020, 05:08:31 AM
Well numbers are rising very rapidly here again now, not so much in the part of the country I'm in but other areas are really being hammered.  It is apparently back in the care homes, having been almost completely eradicated there, and schools are closing as quickly as they re-open.  Hospitals have apparently been told to prepare for a steep rise in admissions over the next few weeks and winter is around the corner.  I'm hoping it's a bit of a blip and it will settle down again but we are getting ready to settle in for a long winter, in all honesty.  I'm just keeping my fingers crossed it doesn't get too bad again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 13, 2020, 01:20:47 PM
Fingers, toes and all hairs crossed here too.

Steady marching rise in cases, hospitalizations and fatalities. We're a multi-cultural huge-university/small city surrounded by very rural communities, so you can imagine the difference between mask-wearing in town and outside it. AND, because we don't have enough jobs for rural areas, a huge percentage of city jobs are filled by county residents. So we're entirely intermingled as a district.

I am anxious about the housecleaner I hired, who comes once a month. It's a big relief but also a concern. She agreed to wear a mask but I vacate while she works (and she had her mask below her nose when I met her...more than once). I can't promise myself she'll wear it the whole time though I hope trusting her is okay (feels like putting my life in a stranger's hands). I know nothing about her household but she seems neither hostile nor serious about masks. My doctor said to stay out for two hours AFTER she leaves, to give the micro-droplet plumes time to settle...he said they linger in the air for hours. So the challenge of where to go during winter is afoot. Worked out fine for her two visits so far but I'm doubtful.

I may give up and stay in my bedroom for six hours, asking her to do that room and the bathroom first. When I wander around town in my car, I have only a friend's backyard for peeing, which she's fine with. Easy in summer but winter would be weird. It's hard to plan this right without a pod!

Maybe M and I will be mellow enough that I can spend one day a month over there. Or a new friend or existing friend with fierce virus vigilance would be open to it too. There will be an answer.

hugs
Hops
PS--ordered more disposable masks and will leave a fresh one out for her each time. She might be wearing (poorly) the same one over and over which would also defeat the point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 13, 2020, 01:50:50 PM
That is difficult, Hops, and it is my concern about mingling with people.  I was fine with my sister as she's been shielding all this time as well so low risk, but other friends have wanted to get together and they're not shielding (in fact the opposite, out more than I would be even without a pandemic lol).  So being with them concerns me more.  That is hard for you, six hours is a long time to fill up, especially once it gets cold so a bedroom day does sound the most logical way to deal with it.  I did read a good article today that there are thoughts by researchers that mask wearing is making the viral load weaker, so people are catching it but not getting so ill from it (which is what they think might be happening here, case numbers are up but the death rate is much lower).  No comfort to anyone who gets it, obviously, but I would hope more evidence that masks are making a difference would make more people wear them (although I suspect many would claim any claims made were fabricated so perhaps not!).  It is a worry although I'm trying not to - we're doing all we can and we're lucky in our area that most people seem to be doing the same.  I hope things settle down in your area soon, are the universities all open again now? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on September 13, 2020, 02:10:36 PM
Hops:
You didn't ask for advice so I'll say this....
A maid who believes in masks and virus protection would wear her mask properly.

This maid TOLD you shed wear her mask to get the job, imo.

The way she wire her mask tells you she doesn't believe in wearing a mask and likely will tear it off when she's in private.

Are there out-of-work go getters, with amazing energy, attention to detail AND your shared belief in virus protection?

It would be one thing if it was her own health she jeopardized....but it's yours too.

Paying someone for hours, days and weeks of worry seems self defeating to me.

I'd certainly talk to her if I didn't replace her.

Lighter
P.S. Think of flu season coming...
every sniffle....every cough you'll be wondering if she left a vapor trail in your home. And....DID she?



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: cats paw on September 15, 2020, 01:38:50 PM
  I saw The Rock (actor) saying he and his family recovered from covid, and he said it was one of the toughest things he had endured. He said they had gotten together with close trusted friends, who were asymptomatic at the time.

  I think there are a lot of people who are "neither hostile nor serious about masks." The virus has many useful idiots, witting and unwitting. My own housekeeper has not been here for a long time. She seems to "get it" about the virus, but doesn't "get it" enough to be in my home for any extended period of time. She and her family have been going to restaurants indoors. Cases are rapidly rising in my area, and no one seems to be observing capacity limits. Just because things are allowed doesn't mean they are safe, much less correctly implemented.

  There are no guarantees of safety, and we all have to deal with certain risks. I am even concerned for 2 weeks after dh or I have any contact with masked health care providers. Though having a nanny cam in every room would verify that she kept her mask on, it wouldn't be a zero risk.

  It's really hard to have limitations and to need help at any time, much less during a pandemic.  I really miss being able to do what I used to, (even though I intensely, intermittently hated domestic chores due to their connotations in my mind) whenever I chose to or needed to. I was so glad when dh asked why I didn't get a housekeeper when my back was getting worse. Now, I have to muddle along as best I can.

  No perfect choices. You've spoken with your doctor, and it sounds like you have (almost) made your choice.

  Domestically challenged sister-in-arms,
  cp
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 15, 2020, 04:14:58 PM
This discussion helped a LOT, guys! Thank you all.

Tupp, thanks. I share your worries about mask behavior--at another level when I think I need to bring a person indoors for an extended time.

Lighter, you described her attitude astutely when I was trying to PR (public-relation) it to myself. (realityismyfriend....) My neighbor is more casual than I am and has gotten in trouble with her hires before. So I'm just uncertain I can trust this woman to be serious. She's pleasant and got the cleaning done, but I want to feel at ease about her, and I don't.

Cat I hear you. You get it too. The real deal is, I'm going to have to discipline myself as soon as injury heals which can be a couple months, is to get serious about doing all I can do myself, a little a day. I can do more than I have, that's for sure. And once my body's able, the remaining issue is corralling the ADD enough to see a chore through.

All will be well either way, but I think I'm going to let go of the new person and hunt for another. Have a query out to my previous dog-sitter who's much in demand for cleaning and takes science and evidence and experts as real and worthy of believing. (Incredible to say, isn't it.) My doc is very smart and he told me the new emphasis is less on disinfecting (though that matters too) and MOST on wearing masks ALWAYS when around others not in your household...but even a housecleaner in an empty house should, because of newer research on how the microdroplets are exhaled with every breath in wide plumes that linger aloft for several hours. So an asymptomatic carrier near you, or who was where you are now walking/breathing an hour or so previously, can give you Covid.

That got through to me! Back in my quarhog hole. But with a plan. Thanks again everybody.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on September 16, 2020, 12:01:23 AM
I'm glad you plan to hire someone else, Hops.  I'm picturing a retired Army wife with 5 boys.....and a no nonsense attitude about masks.

Really....being in the house while it's cleaned means you can make sure the mask stays on.  No guessing or worrying, kwim?
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 16, 2020, 01:57:53 AM
Yes, thanks Lighter.
Plan B or C if I can't secure someone else is to stay here while she cleans and pop out of my room randomly, and just make sure she knows I mean it about the mask and ABOVE the nose.

So odd a concern to figure out living with!

(I'd ask her to clean my room first but the issue would linger....as I don't want to be hovering over her in every space she's in. Not a perfect answer yet but I'm working on it all....)

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 17, 2020, 03:41:10 AM
Well it's chaos here.  The schools have gone back, with instructions that any child with cold type symptoms is kept off school until they receive a negative covid test and they're running out of tests!  People are queuing for days to get one with some being told they have to do round trips of hundreds of miles to get to a testing centre.  Schools are closing as quickly as they open with parents getting back to work for a couple of days before being told they all need to stay home again until the tests have been done - which is taking days for many.  Apparently the phone lines are constantly jammed and the website keeps crashing so people can't get tests sent out to them at home either.  The papers are constantly publishing all sorts of conflicting and speculative articles which is causing panic and a lot of people are pissed off with the whole thing and just doing what they like now anyway.  I've honestly never witnessed anything like it in my life.  The rules are changing so often that no-one knows what they're meant to be doing and everything's so contradictory that a lot of people have given up even trying to follow them (me included).

It really doesn't bode well with winter coming.  Everyone gets coughs and colds in the winter and presumably everyone will be wondering whether it's Covid or not.  I'm putting together our two week supply box in case we get locked down and the supermarkets are empty again but other than that I don't feel I can do much else.  I'd love to head out a bit further afield with son now; it's been months since we did anything other than laps around our local area but the information is so patchy and contradictory that it's difficult to assess risk.  It's hard for him to not have an end point to all of this.  What an absolute shambles.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 17, 2020, 11:40:12 AM
I hear you, Tupp. I think perhaps our first six months of quarantining will have been easier than the next, because of the season. I just ordered another case of TP. Will be replenishing dried beans, canned fruits, frozen everything. I won't go hungry, this town is small and elite enough (for the privileged) that there will be food, and my neighborhood is calm. But I can't imagine what it'll be like for people under the most stress to start with.

BUT. The challenge is still there. It's not too late to buy or make dehydrated everything (one can dehydrate fruits and veggies in one's own oven). They can then be stored in strong bags anywhere--under a bed, stuffed in a closet, any odd corner. I ordered bags of dried veggies that are probably an eighth of their full weight/size! I have them atop the fridge but after a closet purge they can go in with the coats if need be. In winter when I make crockpot stews/soups, that nutrition will be there.

As to socializing, as of now I'm averaging a Zoom call [EDIT] about half the weekdays (and one friend visit almost every week) in the late afternoon. Sundays, church activity gives face-connection by Zoom, and I normally don't bother about Saturdays. If I'm seeing a human face most weekday, and one in person almost weekly, I think that'll get me through the cold months, psychologically, though in-person visits will get harder. A friend is getting one of those propane heaters for her yard (which I thought about for my patio) -- so I can go see her from time to time too.

One thing I always forget about winter is that for me, the anticipation of the cold and dark is half the battle. A couple months into the cold weather I've mentally adapted and am always surprised by how lovely I find winter light, and the days of unexpected sunniness. With exercise, as much social contact as I can construct, and more attention to health and well being in every way I can cobble together, I think it's going to be okay.

Plus, it's not guaranteed but possible we'll have a sane administration again by then, so the dark tide may begin to turn. If that's the case, daily news will include hopeful things, not only more horrors.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 17, 2020, 11:50:57 AM
I'm with you on the winter light, Hopsie, it's so beautiful at times and I find winter sunsets stunning to watch.  We are pretty stocked up; I should be able to get the last few bits we need over the next week or so and it's all tins and packets and I'm putting recipes on cards to put in the box so I don't even need to faff about working out what to put with what.  Plus I've ordered bleach, loo roll, soap and so on.  It's just such a chaotic way that it's being handled - people can't really follow the safety advice because the things they need to do so aren't available!  I think what I realised this morning is that I really need to find a routine that I follow first thing.  Because I get up before my son, that early part of the day is the only time I get completely to myself so I'm reluctant to spend it doing anything - I just want to sit, maybe watch some TV or read.  But my mind wanders then and I find myself getting anxious so I think perhaps I need to get up and just get on with something straight away so that I don't start ruminating.  I do want to make myself get out to different places for walks now; son's reluctant so I haven't been pushing it but I think I need to bite the bullet tomorrow and just get us on the bus and go for a walk on the beach.  Numbers here are low but our dumb arse local MP has been declaring that numbers are so low there's virtually no risk here so people have been turning up to enjoy the risk free environment! So numbers are going up again, still low compared to some places but honestly, the wandering about needs to stop.

I was talking to a friend yesterday who joked that at least you can clear a queue quickly now by coughing loudly which did make me laugh (she was only kidding lol).

I do find I keep wobbling as well about how best to cope - buy a car so we can get out more, do the house up so it's more comfortable to be in, move somewhere more remote so there are just fewer people (and less noise!).  I do keep coming back to making the house more comfortable as the most sensible thing but in those moments of not being sure what to do I start to feel anxious.  I'm trying to focus on what i can do in the here and now but it's not always easy to keep your mind on one track xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 17, 2020, 06:28:27 PM
I'll make a suggestion here - in case of flu, cold or covid (not the severe type) while you're still isolating.

Right now, put together a box with your usual OTC symptom reducers, very easy to make foods (or pre-freeze single servings to easily reheat). And all the comfort items you might require. Even a sinus infection is going to be miserable when you're stuck home alone... and if you have any fever - well, chances are you won't be seen by any docs UNTIL a covid test indicates infected or not.

I am a fan of Traditional Medicinal or Yogi tea - I can't remember which brand makes the Breathe Easy tea or Gypsy Cold Care. Both are VERY GOOD and soothing for the usual winter ailments. Stock up on lemon juice & honey - an old wives remedy is the hot toddy: an ounce of bourbon, teaspoon of honey, teaspoon or more to taste of lemon juice, and boiling water. The hot toddy right before bed, also helps induce sleep. I'm also a fan of mucinex (decongestant type) at night to facilitate sleep during a cold.

Sore throat lozenges, nasal spray or neti pot, epsom salts to soak away aches in a hot bath, even aspercreme helps... or tiger balm. Plenty of tissues and toilet paper. I have gotten some temporary relief from a sinus infection by boiling a pot of water, putting a towel over my head and just inhaling the steam.

Chicken soup!!! Home made is best, but canned works too. You can easily freeze a big batch of soup for later. Myth or no, this is the world's best comfort food for winter sicknesses.

Put everything in one box, handy to access, except frozen stuff. That way, if you're on your own when a bug strikes... you can cope without having to think too hard about "where did I put that?" or when even the idea of retrieving x, y or z seems too daunting.

Knock on wood, but I haven't had the flu in over a decade. Washing my hands first thing, when ever I return to the house, is now a religious rite for me. Soap is a lot more plentiful right now than hand sanitizer - and some studies say it's more effective. Buy a 12 pack of ivory soap bars or if you can find them, the liquid pump soap.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 18, 2020, 03:22:00 AM
All good advice, Skep, which I will act on today as the science people are calling for another two week lockdown to stop the virus spreading again so no doubt people will be stampeding the shops as soon as they hear.  We're pretty well stocked already; I've been putting bits away over the last few weeks and we use quite a lot of natural/old wives' remedies anyway so I've usually got the bits we need to look after ourselves but I'll do a stock check today and order whatever else we need to put by.  We are still doing pretty well in this part of the country compared to other places, I think because we just have more open spaces and fewer people in them most of the time.  But caution, none the less.  I just feel sorry for kids if their schools get shut again and businesses that have only recently reopened having to shut down but we'll see what happens.  This one's a stayer!  When it all started I honestly thought it would be over and done with within a few months, I think the ongoing stress of it is very hard for a lot of people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 18, 2020, 08:39:52 AM
Think I read yesterday that 60% of businesses that closed for the virus (voluntarily or forced to) - are now closed permanently. That would be local restaurants and small retail shops, mostly. I know it's still a month to month thing, keep my fingers crossed, situation at my business.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 18, 2020, 10:46:44 AM
How to cut your use of toilet paper/loo roll in half or more (after urinating, not #2):

Get a:
1) A--bike bottle (the cheap squeezy kind), OR a
    B--repurposed other squeezy bottle
   
2) Old washcloths

Aim the stream you know where, sit for a moment until dripping's done (meditate!), blot with clean washcloth or few squares of TP. 

Wash hands. Drop cloth in laundry bin or wash with soap/rinse out in sink. Hang to dry.

Ta da! Since I pee 10 times to one poo, this idea makes me happy. On a couple levels:

--No fear of running out of TP
--results are far cleaner than with TP (researched)
--Way less water use
--Way gentler on home (and city) sewage systems
--Environmentally friendlier (saves trees)
--saves $$

Tip: Urine is sterile. Major frugalizers just use water and a hand to sploosh around there and rinse urine traces away. Then wash hands. Simple!

There. Now we know each other even better! LOL.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 19, 2020, 07:36:23 AM
The police in our county and the neighbouring one have just announced that there is to be no Trick or Treat this year :(  There is still talk of another national lockdown, with many areas around the country already having tighter restrictions and curfews in place.  There are rumours (online) of panic buying; I've yet to hear anything locally but yeah, signs are not great.  We are apparently at the same number of hospital admissions now that we were in March (before it got really bad) and they have got one of the temporary hospitals they built then on standby as they brace themselves for high admission rates.  Medical staff have (apparently) been told to buckle in and get ready for an onslaught of cases.  It's difficult to know what's true and what isn't.  I wish we had one information source that we could be absolutely certain is completely reliable and without agenda.

What I do feel differently about know that we're facing (possibly) another six months indoors is that I feel more able to focus on what we can create in that time.  The last one was just such a welcome break that I didn't really have thoughts of doing anything (or not for long, anyway).  It was more just about resting and getting through what was to come.  Now I feel more like we can get good routines and habits in place and work on what we want more of in our lives and I like the idea of that.  I just kind of wish it didn't have to come with people dying and endless arguments about hand sanitiser and face masks :)

PS, Hopsie, you are far more dedicated than me - if I'm out of loo roll I just shake and go!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on September 19, 2020, 11:56:49 AM
Oldest DD woke up with sore throat Thurs morning, which drew attention to preparedness in our house.

First, the forehead thermometer said she was dead....91.7 degrees. So frustrating and gives me doubts about all forehead thermometers.

The oral thermometer was buried in a go bag.  We made the island plan months ago, then all ports shut down.  Bag stayed packed.  I guess all the new Zinc is at the bottom, cause I only found older products in med cabinet.  DD started taking 6 lozenges a day, but won't do nose zinc.

Amber, your advice to put everything in a box is really helpful.

It became apparent I haven't stayed on top of quick reporting labs. 

In the meantime, I'll ask hospital head friend what lab she uses, bc it's super quick.  We plan to have a bonfire and BBQ on Sunday.

DD's was dehydrated and slept 10 hours with the fan on.  We quarantined her till I found the thermometer.... no fever, her sense of smell/ taste all normal.

She felt fine by that evening.  Everything fine now, but whew....now I'm thinking about asking doc and hospital head about blood thinners to have on hand, just in case.

That's my greatest fear....blood clotting issues I could have prevented.

I'm looking up breathing teas to order.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 19, 2020, 12:38:09 PM
I'm glad she got better quickly, Lighter.  It is a worry, making sure you've got everything you need together (and easy to find).  We have had the 'you must be dead' readings from thermometers before lol, I guess they just don't work so well after a while.  They've run out of tests here, apparently, people are unable to have them delivered at home and others are having to make long trips (hundreds of miles) to get to testing centres that are functioning right now.  Madness.  How do you prioritise opening McDonalds over testing people quickly so they know whether or not they're safe to go to work?

I hope you can get all the things and info that you need and that the bonfire is good at the weekend :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 19, 2020, 05:59:33 PM
Lighter, is your daughter at genetic risk of blood clotting disorders?
If not, I doubt a doctor, even if head of hospital, would prescribe them.
Might be a nuclear approach unless she has a clotting disease, or I might've missed part of her story. Apologies if I have.

There are no secret weapons available only to those with access (I hope). Unless we're in the administration, we're all working with the same tools. Rapid testing wouldn't do much for a teenager, except to alert the household to quarantine themselves and her. Don't forget "normal" viruses are everywhere.)

Aspirin is a non-Rx blood thinner, and is advised if one might be having a heart attack.

I feel your fear and sense you're in fight mode right now. I hope that passes or proves unnecessary. But responding with a renewed commitment to precautions is a gift. No more socializing without masks, eh? My doc said, "There's nothing magical about six feet." So I've gone to 8 or 10.

hugs and calm,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 28, 2020, 12:35:44 PM
Well, the CDC has published new revised numbers... and honestly, this doesn't seem to be as bad as the hype would have it. That said - stories still exist of people being severely ill and dying from it. And those stories are true too. So I don't have any faith this information will help anyone cope any better with the uncertainty surrounding this. Just posting it, for being able to assemble your own big picture... and make your own decisions.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

So, statistically, chances of INFECTION look like this:

1 out of 34,000 for ages 0 to 19;

1 out of 5,000 for ages 20 to 49;

1 out of 200 for ages 50 to 69; and

1 out of 20 for ages 70 and up.

Here’s another way to look at the same numbers. If you get infected, your chances of surviving are as follows:

Age Group Probability of Survival

0-19: 99.997%
20-49: 99.98%
50-69: 99.5%
70+: 94.6%

Stats from here:

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/new-cdc-estimates-fatality-rate-covid-19-drops-again-and-may-surprise-you
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 28, 2020, 02:41:08 PM
That looks like a lot of dead old people to me?  1 in 20 seems high, I don't get how they work out who's more likely to get infected?  It seems to be the opposite here at the moment; mostly younger people getting it with a lower fatality rate (presumably because they're fitter/stronger/not getting such a high viral load?  Not sure).  It's all so confusing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 28, 2020, 02:45:04 PM
I just checked our local numbers and they've shot right up in the last week, I wish I hadn't looked now!  Lol x
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 28, 2020, 03:18:24 PM
Reputable sources mean everything, as I look at stuff. Thanks for the link, Amber.

Wikipedia:

Zero Hedge or ZeroHedge is a far-right[12] libertarian[17] financial blog,[13][14] presenting staff-written articles and aggregating news and opinions from external sources.[18] Zero Hedge, per its motto,[a] is bearish in its investment outlook and analysis, often deriving from its adherence to the Austrian School of economics and credit cycles.[22] While often labeled as a financial permabear,[23][24] Zero Hedge has also been described as a source of "cutting-edge news, rumors and gossip in the financial industry".[25]

Over time, Zero Hedge expanded into non-financial analysis,[c] such as conspiracy theories and fringe rhetoric[27] that has been associated with the US radical right[


hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 28, 2020, 05:33:34 PM
From a Washington Post Q & A--weird to see how normalized/mainstream the term "narcissist" has become! It's probably a good development. I hope.
Hugs,
Hops
---------

“I live in an area with a large Republican majority. State law requires masks inside and outside. Today, I unfortunately was in a checkout line behind an unmasked 30-something female, very busy chatting up the cashier. I said nothing, because we were inside and the problem of aerosols would just have been aggravated. What is your advice for a courteous way to mention to people that their habits put my health at risk while still minimizing the risk of confrontation?” — Anne in Pennsylvania

This is becoming an unhappily frequent conundrum. On the one hand, we have scientific evidence that it's especially dangerous to be near people who fail to wear masks. On the other hand, confronting such people risks increasing the chance of contagion, or even violence.

Nor do these bare-faced renegades appear to be going away. A small group of anti-maskers actually marched through a Target store in Florida this month, loudly inviting customers to join them.

Let's first dispense with two obvious options for Anne: She could have simply left the store, though applying this advice globally would effectively surrender all public spaces to anti-maskers. Or she could have reported the offending customer to a store manager, though doing so would have simply forced an employee to take on the risk of confrontation and contagion. We've reported that retail workers already have it hard enough during the pandemic.

Luckily, experts do have advice for how to encourage a stranger to mask up without provoking them into even more dangerous behavior, which wellness reporter Allyson Chiu shared in an article today.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/narcissism-mask-covid-psychology/2020/09/25/d3de1b32-fe9c-11ea-9ceb-061d646d9c67_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_to_your_health&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_tyh&wpmk=1&pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJjb29raWVuYW1lIjoid3BfY3J0aWQiLCJpc3MiOiJDYXJ0YSIsImNvb2tpZXZhbHVlIjoiNTk2YWZkY2ZhZGU0ZTI0MTE5YWJhNmRkIiwidGFnIjoiNWY3MjQ5NzE5ZDJmZGEwZWZiMzdiY2EzIiwidXJsIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cud2FzaGluZ3RvbnBvc3QuY29tL2xpZmVzdHlsZS93ZWxsbmVzcy9uYXJjaXNzaXNtLW1hc2stY292aWQtcHN5Y2hvbG9neS8yMDIwLzA5LzI1L2QzZGUxYjMyLWZlOWMtMTFlYS05Y2ViLTA2MWQ2NDZkOWM2N19zdG9yeS5odG1sP3V0bV9jYW1wYWlnbj13cF90b195b3VyX2hlYWx0aCZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJnV0bV9zb3VyY2U9bmV3c2xldHRlciZ3cGlzcmM9bmxfdHloJndwbWs9MSJ9.7eufM0H-kzLymXHM_pkyX_t6eHuSXdO_uJVUywEJW3Y (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/narcissism-mask-covid-psychology/2020/09/25/d3de1b32-fe9c-11ea-9ceb-061d646d9c67_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_to_your_health&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_tyh&wpmk=1&pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJjb29raWVuYW1lIjoid3BfY3J0aWQiLCJpc3MiOiJDYXJ0YSIsImNvb2tpZXZhbHVlIjoiNTk2YWZkY2ZhZGU0ZTI0MTE5YWJhNmRkIiwidGFnIjoiNWY3MjQ5NzE5ZDJmZGEwZWZiMzdiY2EzIiwidXJsIjoiaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cud2FzaGluZ3RvbnBvc3QuY29tL2xpZmVzdHlsZS93ZWxsbmVzcy9uYXJjaXNzaXNtLW1hc2stY292aWQtcHN5Y2hvbG9neS8yMDIwLzA5LzI1L2QzZGUxYjMyLWZlOWMtMTFlYS05Y2ViLTA2MWQ2NDZkOWM2N19zdG9yeS5odG1sP3V0bV9jYW1wYWlnbj13cF90b195b3VyX2hlYWx0aCZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJnV0bV9zb3VyY2U9bmV3c2xldHRlciZ3cGlzcmM9bmxfdHloJndwbWs9MSJ9.7eufM0H-kzLymXHM_pkyX_t6eHuSXdO_uJVUywEJW3Y)]

The first thing to keep in mind is that it's possible the maskless person is a narcissist — someone who lacks empathy and believes themselves exempt from rules. That may sound like a snap judgment, but Chiu reports that peer-reviewed studies in the United States, Brazil and Poland all suggest that people prone to narcissism are less likely to follow social distancing guidelines or wear masks.

This does not mean everyone without a mask in the grocery store has a personality disorder, but it may be safest for you to assume they do, because another common trait of narcissists is being prone to anger. A simple eye roll directed at a maskless narcissist “will be enough to spin them into a rage,” a clinical psychologist at California State University at Los Angeles told Chiu.

So you should avoid even semi-confrontational comments such as “You're supposed to wear a mask in here,” behavioral experts told Chiu. One suggested speaking to the person like a “hostage negotiator:” kindly, softly and appealing to their own self-interest as much as yours.

A Harvard Medical School psychologist suggests trying the line: “You can make the difference between life and death because we’re all in this together.” Using the word “we” emphasizes interconnection and might appeal to a narcissist's sense of grandiosity. A small bribe might work, too: some experts recommend carrying an extra factory-sealed mask with you and offering it to the person you're trying to convince.

At all costs, avoid letting the conversation become an argument. If it's clear that the person isn't listening to you or is stirring to anger, you should disengage. Simply stop responding to them, and walk away if you have to. You tried your best to make the situation safer for everyone around you. You can at least make it safer for yourself by leaving.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 29, 2020, 03:41:36 AM
Gosh I think assuming someone has a personality disorder because they don't have a mask on is a bit much!  Are there not exemptions for people with certain health conditions?  There are certain situations here where wearing a mask isn't mandatory - people can get a card or something on their phone via the GP so that they don't have to put one on.  Do you not have something similar over there?

Personally I'm not a fan of the 'calling out on masks' thing, or on grassing up your neighbours (which is being encouraged here at the minute).  The whole thing's been too badly managed to start insisting things are important now; we've tens of thousands of dead people, many of whom were just left to die in care homes without any kind of medical help.  It's impossible, in my eyes, to insist that something is a necessary practice 'for the sake of public safety' when they've blatantly allowed so many to die, not just now but through homelessness and lack of various other resources over the years.  I was talking about it with a friend last night; it's a nightmare situation for pretty much everyone, but often for different reasons.  For some the threat of the virus is the greatest worry, for others it's their job or income, for some the effect on other health problems is the issue.  I think the best we can all do now is keep ourselves as safe as possible and avoid others who aren't taking precautions.  Over here it would be down to the shop security to deal with that situation, is it not the same over there? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 29, 2020, 03:48:29 AM
A few people can't wear masks for health reasons and have cards to carry.

The masses who rebel against masks for political or antisocial reasons are just prolonging the pandemic and ensuring that many more people will die. To be that indifferent to others' lives does seem to me pretty narcissistic. And callous.

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 29, 2020, 03:58:28 AM
A few people can't wear masks for health reasons and have cards to carry.

The masses who rebel against masks for political or antisocial reasons are just prolonging the pandemic and ensuring that many more people will die. To be that indifferent to others' lives does seem to me pretty narcissistic. And callous.

Hops

I get that Hopsie but the person who wrote in to the paper didn't mention whether it had been established if the person had a medical reason not to wear one?  Perhaps I've misread it or missed a bit but I know here that disabled people are being harassed for not wearing masks as people are assuming they're refusing rather than unable.  It's making an already stressful situation even more stressful for some people.  Perhaps it was discussed somewhere else; I think I'd have just felt more comfortable if the possibility of a medical exemption was raised before an assumption of a personality disorder was suggested? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on September 29, 2020, 10:33:20 AM
Has anyone heard of water purification chemicals used to help with blood clotting during Covid illness? 

Specifically sodium chloride and NaCio
                                                                       2?

Lighter
   
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on September 29, 2020, 12:56:37 PM
OT to Hops -

Yes ZH does lean to reporting some really oddball and questionable stuff. Much is written elsewhere - and links are provided to the original source (which I usually prefer to read, given ZH's weird formatting these days). So they're more an aggregator site than anything else. "Tyler Durden" is a pseudonym used for content written by nameless people. But their financial and statistical stuff - while perhaps contradictory to establishment media sources - is still mostly solid. So I always liberally add "salt" while reading and try to verify bits of info with other sources. That said, one often hears bits & bobs first at ZH that is later picked up by the major media providers. Seen it happen over & over, during the last decade or so.

The far-right tag that's recently been attached to them, isn't accurate, in my view. There is just as much far-left content there that's ALSO of questionable origin and validity. Not quite to the level of click-bait yet with either point of view; but decidedly not mainstream.

Since I was linking to statistical info, I decided to use them anyway. The site is not much different than the Drudge Report - or any number of news aggregators.  These days, every site's bias (slip) is showing... in one article or another... and that falls squarely on the authors, imo.

I have a TON of experience evaluating media by now (as a lot of us do) and I read plenty of stuff that's way outside any viewpoint or confirmation bias reflex... and wouldn't post the link, if I thought the relevant content was completely BS.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 29, 2020, 01:29:08 PM
Got it. Thanks for the explanation of how you see it, Amber.

What's source for the goose isn't necessarily source for the gander...but it helps to understand.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on September 30, 2020, 02:51:43 AM
One of the things I'm finding tricky to organise at the moment is trying to do things we need to on the same day, where possible, to reduce the number of times we leave the house, but also taking into account many places are still operating reduced opening hours so we can't necessarily go when most convenient for us.  We've got several appointments next Monday which is good (as it means only going into town one day next week) but there's a gap of almost an hour between the last and last but one appointment.  Usually we'd just go to a cafe but I'm not keen on that just now as numbers are rising here and it's not the nicest weather for sitting outside in, either.  Might have to have a think about where there's a bench in a sheltered spot and just take a thermos and some snacks; at least if we're out of the wind it won't be as cold.  Probably find everyone else has the same idea as well and there will be nowhere to sit lol.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on September 30, 2020, 08:12:47 AM
I'll keep my fingers crossed you get some sunshine that day, Tupp.
I had a memorable moment last winter (the Before Time) when Pooch and I went downtown one afternoon and I suddenly craved a beer. Couldn't go indoors with Pooch. But one bar at the end of the bricked-over downtown has brick walls and directly faces south (and is partly sheltered from the west by a hotel). Anyway, wound up sitting there in I think February feeling perfectly toasty! Had a warm Pooch on my lap and a frosty beer and it was cozy. It surprised me how nice it was.

Sunshine for Monday, request submitted.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 01, 2020, 08:40:06 AM
I'll keep my fingers crossed you get some sunshine that day, Tupp.
I had a memorable moment last winter (the Before Time) when Pooch and I went downtown one afternoon and I suddenly craved a beer. Couldn't go indoors with Pooch. But one bar at the end of the bricked-over downtown has brick walls and directly faces south (and is partly sheltered from the west by a hotel). Anyway, wound up sitting there in I think February feeling perfectly toasty! Had a warm Pooch on my lap and a frosty beer and it was cozy. It surprised me how nice it was.

Sunshine for Monday, request submitted.

hugs
Hops

Finding cosy places to snuggle in during the winter months is so lovely, Hops, I love it when you can find a place where sitting outside is a pleasure, even when the weather's bad.  There's a place in the next town where they put an awning out over the winter with clear plastic sides and big blankets on the chairs so you can shelter whilst looking at the river - of course, it's usually too busy to sit down anywhere but that's the rub!  I've sorted our little predicament out as I checked the opening hours again and they've increased them since last time we went so it will work now with minimal loitering; maybe ten minutes tops but there's a sheltered fire exit we can huddle into if need for that short time.  Usually we could sit in the waiting room but they've closed that due to covid.  Do none of the bars allow dogs?  Most pubs here do, and a lot of cafes do as well, you quite often see a pair of big brown eyes looking pleadingly at you when you eat your chips :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 01, 2020, 12:13:35 PM
A very few places do on sort of sheltered (plastic drapes usually) patios that have big propane heaters. I wish dogs were allowed indoors at a few places (after Covid) but they just ain't. The U.K. is a lot more adaptable to pooches, imo.

I've been agonizing over a steel round simple firepit thing for the small patio. It's not cheap and would require a lot of logs. No maintenance, good heat output, etc. And movable so no permanent installation. But I'm asking myself whether with my back issues, I should even bother. Stacking firewood would hurt and also require a rack I don't have....a lot of fuss and bother.

It might be that my best solution to virus isolation this winter will be just to suck it up, make walking dates for sunny days, and/or find 1-4 people (possibly including M IF (big IF) the just-friends thing works out)-- to be in a "pod" so once or twice a month I could host or attend a movie night with just 1 or 2 invited at a time. Masks on indoors, sitting 6'-8' apart. Would be weird but maybe comforting. Third option is just to wait it out.

M is the only person I know so far who's as intense about virus precautions as I am, but he's problematic. It's possible Zoomie could become one. He's been very careful but has gone into some stores. I suppose I could tell him if he gets tested negative after 2-3 weeks of real quarantine, he can be in my pod!

The social drive is SO powerful. To get a grip when I'm wavering, I check the daily Covid dashboard for my area. Forty-six new cases today. That'll do it.

I hope you find happy safe places where you can get a bit of that humanity-feeling!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 01, 2020, 04:01:16 PM
Been torturing myself over a lovely minimalist patio steel firepit that gets great reviews for putting out a LOT of heat and being generally wonderful. However, it's not cheap...and, it requires wood (I don't want to mess with propane) and eats a lot of it, so that would mean also setting up a firewood rack, and dealing with tarps and covers and cleanup. (You just turn the pit thing upside down and it leaves very little ash...burns almost all of the wood to nothing.) But it should be protected.

So by the time I get the steel pit AND a firewood rack AND split firewood AND a cover or tarp....it's not small bucks on my budget. It'd be perrrrrfect on my patio but who knows if that many people would even want to come during the cold months?

I am vacillating between talking myself in or out of it. Thought of a chiminea, but I like this sleek smaller thing a lot better. Patio's fairly long but not wide.

Just yappin'...
hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 01, 2020, 10:25:06 PM
What IS this fire Pit....thing you speak of, Hops?

 Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 02, 2020, 03:54:31 AM
I'd be inclined to see outdoor heating as an investment in health and wellbeing, Hops.  If it means that at least the possibility of people coming over is more real and keeping safer while you socialise is more possible than I'd say it's worth the investment.  Could your gardening chap stack wood/chop it small/look after the maintenance of it for you?  Long walks on sunny days is a good idea. I think socially distanced movie nights would work, odd though it would feel at first?

Cases are up in our area as well, it's sobering.  We're still being mostly inside and very careful but for most people it's nigh on impossible - by the time you factor in work, school, checking on elderly relatives and so on, there's a fair amount of mingling going on however careful people are being.  Is it true that Trump has it?  I wasn't sure if it was a (not very funny) joke doing the rounds.  Hard to know with the internet these days! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 02, 2020, 10:02:05 AM
Do yu really think Trump tested positive for COVID?  I think it's more likely than not.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 02, 2020, 10:06:19 AM
Lighter, search for "Solo stove Bonfire" and you'll see it. There's a larger one too. I like their looks and they're portable, so you don't half to walk/sweep around it the other half of the year.

Tupp, he does have it, and the first lady. Schadenfreude. After his terrifying rampage of a debate it's a mercy he may be a tiny bit quieter for a while. Boy, it's a real test of whatever traces remain of my childhood religious training....not to think of karma. I'm trying to channel "When they go low, we go high" except that may have gotten us this sociopathic president in the first place. The U.S. has been asleep at the wheel for too long (that's karma too). The damage done is heartbreaking.

I'm still reading with my jaw on my chest. Time to write more postcards to voters. I voted early, curbside (like a drive-thru restaurant!) a week ago and in this small city it was a breeze. But in other places like Texas, one side is doing all it can to suppress the vote--the governor there just ordered only one secure outdoor ballot box per COUNTY (you can drive almost 2000 miles from end to end of one). So seniors and/or the disabled who really need to deliver their votes outdoors ... how can we have sunk to this? Okay, I'll stop. I apologize for the politics, that's not our VESMB custom. And that's wise. It's just a really tense time until the outcome.

Back to cozy patio fantasies....my lawn guy is going to deliver some split seasoned firewood and there's a super-cheap way to build a sturdy rack: four steel brackets made for the purpose. You insert two treated pieces of lumber lengthwise for the bottom, and four regular ones that stick upright from each corner. You choose the rack dimensions based on how much firewood you'll get (about 250 lbs for me for the season is my guess, not much) and buy 2'x4' lumber cut to suit. Even I could assemble this thing!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 02, 2020, 10:41:40 AM
The cheap rack sounds perfect Hops, I'm glad there's a way to do it without spending a fortune.  Good omen, I reckon.

The thing that struck me most about the Trump news was whether or not I could believe it.  How have we go to a point where we can't trust anything we see or hear anymore (at least now without a decent knowledge of the source or the topic)?  Kind of scary.

And yes, voting.  I kind of don't want to watch, here or there.  I'm still looking at eco retreats in out of the way places and wondering if I can break son's internet addiction and get him into coppicing or something instead :)  Lol x
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 02, 2020, 01:22:42 PM
Coppicing! Brilliant! I loved the documentary about that...

Even in high-end media (just the commenters, not the reporters/opiners) there's some speculation about T's diagnosis being a hoax. I have a feeling it's not, but doubting that sort of news is a symptom of what he and his ilk have done to us.

UGH.

hugs
Hops
PS In case I didn't say, I bought the fire pit. It'll be here end of Oct. and I'm glad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 02, 2020, 07:50:19 PM
:: kicking back next to burn barrell::

I think a lively fire Pit is a most excellent investment, Hops.

Light
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 03, 2020, 01:21:10 PM
Just walked into emergency care center to ask about Covid-19 Rapid Test.

First avail appt is Monday.
Rapid Test is $179.00 without insurance and $200.00 for regular test.....should have asked about timeframe for results, but so upset over crap poor planning, high expense and lack of care I had to turn on my heel and walk out.

I guess the policy is.....go home.  Spread whatever you have.  If you can afford the test, come back and get an idea of what you've been giving to those around you, bc....
that's a plan.

My brother found the rapid test at a little mom and pop emergency clinic for $120.00 a person.  I guess price gouging is up to the provider, and their sense of entitlement to profits.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 03, 2020, 06:43:56 PM
What spurred it, Lighter?

Have you been exposed?
Or feeling any symptoms?

I've worried about your mingling/hosting etc....

Fingers crossed,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 03, 2020, 11:39:50 PM
Not me.....guest tested regularly before meetings with care team.  At least I know he doesn't have it.

Brother felt he might go to island, but alas...
no power or water so all that money wasted....$360.00.
Lighter



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 07, 2020, 07:19:12 AM
400 more cases in the last week in our county, almost all in the area our University is in.  They should have put all teaching online, this is just a crazy risk to take - I understand it's different with younger kids but adults can stay home and learn from their laptops and with online seminars and so on.  The death rate is still mercifully low (I think because it's mostly affecting younger people so they're recovering from it) but that's still a huge jump in numbers in such a short space of time.

Lighter, I hear you on the testing!  It's an absolute shambles here; they miscounted thousands of results because they were apparently just using a normal Excel package - like the one you have on your own computer at home? - to run the database???????  And the numbers got too big for it to handle so tens of thousands were unreported until the following week.  People are finding they can't get a test at all and of course, a lot of people can't afford to take time off work so I'd lay money that some people have symptoms and aren't going for a test or self isolating because they just can't pay their bills if they do.  I did find out that our local osteopathy clinic is doing private testing for about £100 a time - our chances are low but if either of us got sick I'd rather know sooner than later.  Absolute madness.  A friend's son is doing a work placement with a pharmaceutical research company - all staff get tested weekly as standard - smart move, I think.  Teachers, on the other hand, aren't even considered a priority for testing and many are having to stay off work for two weeks at a time because they can't get a test to find out one way or the other.  Crazy bonkers madness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 07, 2020, 01:57:54 PM
This may be bonkers too, but I'm not concerned about testing.
If I ran a fever for days and especially felt short of breath, I'd assume it's Covid-19, and my ticket would be punched (by me) pretty soon thereafter.

I have read so many accounts of the long-term damage and the PTSD and what ventilation is like, etc., that I'd just as soon skip the hospital part.

Also, it seems clear that people are relying way way too much on testing as though it actually offers anything protective. It does for those around you if you're not self-isolating, but it is after the horse left the barn. Also, from reading for hours about DJT and the White House...they were using a less reliable test, and according to experts, negative tests do NOT mean Oh goody, in the clear. They just mean that this time, this test...didn't detect it. You could still be contagious, asymptomatic. There's a particular timeline for when enough virus blooms in your system to register on a test, and some of the tests are better than others.

Same with masks. They lower the risk, absolutely, and a lot. But it's not 100% because so many wear masks with gaps around the edges where virus-laden breath can escape anyway.

I think people just latch on to the magic fairy safety tools, and forget that the ONE sure way not to get it (if you have this luxury) is to stay home. Period.

Americans especially just don't know how to endure it. Socializing is a huge drive for me (hence my pricey fire pit) but with all the reading....I know complete lockdown would be the safest.

Then again, I'm a coward, and I really don't want to go this way or make anybody else go this way if I can help it.

The current DC saga about infection, risk and especially consideration for others, as though we're actually all in this together...is overwhelming. Hope I make it to the election without a nervous breakdown. Already voted, curbside, easy as pie, and wish everyone who possibly can would vote right now.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 07, 2020, 02:51:41 PM
Aw, Hops, well hopefully it won't come to that as you're taking so many precautions.  Our risk is pretty low due to not going out much and not being around people when we do (booked cinema tickets for Friday; you can see which seats have already sold when you book your tickets and it's completely empty again).  It's all just such a shambles.  I was watching one of the comedians here do a spoof sketch mimicking Johnson doing one of his 'announcements' and the comedy version actually made more sense than the real announcement. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 07, 2020, 03:14:50 PM
Here's my current favorite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tZVnbDq9B4

enjoy!
(I can imagine the Boris thing...oh my Lawd.)

Not freaked out really, just recognizing how deeply serious it is and accepting how differently people respond....all beyond our control.

So glad you and son are among the rational!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 08, 2020, 03:51:08 AM
Eeew Hopsie, I watched it, the belligerence and arrogance just make me cringe, that lady's lovely voice seems to pure to be alongside it!  Lol.

Much is beyond our control but oddly I am feeling more in control of my life than I do usually.  I'm still quite overwhelmed at how much easier things are for us if we don't go out too much and don't arrange too much to do (either at home or elsewhere).  I'm starting to realise how much of my rushing around has been based around accepting other people's invitations in the past - their need for company and/or something to do rather than my own.  I've people wanting to meet for coffee next week - I don't really fancy it?  I'm enjoying being home.  I have started going for a long walk first thing - the lockdown weight has really piled on and I need to do something about it.  But other than that our weekly excursion for a film and new books is plenty just now.  I would like it all to be over, though.  I think the waiting for what happens next is difficult for everyone xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 09, 2020, 05:36:34 AM
Cases are increasing by over 100 a day where we are at the moment, assuming these are actually being accurately counted this time.  We're still a lot lower than other parts of the country which is a blessing but given that they're only testing people with symptoms I guess we can assume there are plenty wandering around who don't know they have it because they're asymptomatic?  We're doing very little anyway so we still fall into the 'pretty safe' bracket from my point of view but it's still definitely something I'll be keeping a close eye on and if we go from green to amber (which is how they're colouring the maps at the moment to show the numbers of cases - green very low, amber in the middle, red very high) I think we'll be doing our own lockdown again - which looking at the terrible weather forecast wouldn't be a bad thing anyway!  The good news is that we haven't had a Covid death in our area for about a month now which at least means the people catching it aren't dying but it's still a pretty worrying time xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 09, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
I think the medical treatments are improving Covid outcomes....I saw early treatment with blood thinners was helping a lot, Tupp.

I'm glad C19deaths seems to have halted, for now, in your area.

Lighter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 10, 2020, 10:15:47 AM
I think the medical treatments are improving Covid outcomes....I saw early treatment with blood thinners was helping a lot, Tupp.

I'm glad C19deaths seems to have halted, for now, in your area.

Lighter

I've read various things, Lighter, they apparently have a few things now they can try to halt it in its tracks and apparently there is a thought that the mask wearing and social distancing is keeping the viral load down so people just aren't getting as strong a dose of it.  But ............ it's looking pretty bleak in some ways here.  Businesses are going under and financial support is being withdrawn and/or if granted, isn't adequate to keep people going.  Doctors on Twitter are describing wards filling up and more and more people being admitted with medical staff having to work 18 hour shifts to cover everything.  People in some care homes have apparently not seen anyone they know for seven months now, horrifying effect on mental health for some of them.  I'm literally only skimming through main points just to make sure there's nothing there I need to do anything about but even so, it's not pretty reading.  I think I'm just going to stock up on good books to get myself lost in and spend the next six months in a fantasy world as much as possible :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 10, 2020, 10:28:33 AM
Yup yup yup.  Books and working with son, sans the hustle and bustle if schedules and commitments. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 10, 2020, 11:14:52 AM
YES to six months in a fantasy world!
I think that's absolutely the sanest approach right now.

Neither testing nor treatments are adequate for dropping one's guard, imo.

It's really stunning how much denial still flourishes...it's a different sort of virus but equally contagious, it appears.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 10, 2020, 11:48:31 AM
Nodding to both :)  Yep, I was talking to my sister this morning and saying to her that, bizarrely, we are in poll position for once.  We're both used to staying home because of son's health problems, I haven't had a social life or work outside the house for years so that's normal, we've no family that we're close to or partner who's out all day and might be bringing germs in with him (or just butting heads with due to lack of social life etc) so all the things that are usually negatives are actually going to be the thing that gets us through this relatively unscathed, I think.  I'm just ordering some new books now; usually I borrow from the library rather than spending money but you can't browse in the library at the moment (no touching and putting back) so I think buying two or three new books a month is going to be a sound mental health investment over the next few months (bit like your fire pit, Hopsie!  I might get around to buying something I can set fire to in the garden at some point as well :) ).

Son's just been for a haircut; a friend of one of our neighbour's has set up a little salon in her garage so that people who don't want to sit with lots of others can go to her there.  Really good idea, she's very careful with all precautions, there's a little side entrance to it and she's quick as well so son got a good trim and tidy up and I sat over by the door, all masked up and she's got it well ventilated as well, plus temp checks.  Great idea for her and we were talking about how some people have been very innovative with all of this and quickly found another way to get things done.  Walking distance from the house as well so we've got our bit of exercise in for the day and got home just as it started to rain again.  I feel like we've got our necessities covered as safely as we can and then yes, books, good box sets and a bit of re-shuffling once the money's sorted out and I can spend a bit and get creative.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 10, 2020, 12:10:35 PM
Sounds lovely, Tupp!

I buy about a book a year on average, just wedded to the library. And if I look up a few reviews first I don't have to touch and put back.

Books have gotten so expensive I just bounced them off my frugality list, alas. I should check out more e-books, but the whole point is to get off screens (I fail).

Bet your son feels better after he's been all spruced up, handsome thing!

Enjoy the Cozy,
Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 11, 2020, 04:37:58 AM
They are pricey, Hops, I just love to buy them but very rarely buy new (or at all).  I did treat myself to a hardback copy of a book I'd been really looking forward to reading last month and this latest batch I bought from one of our lovely online second hand bookshops, so I got a good number for not too much cash.  I've not been able to read much for so many years now; physically, my brain just couldn't compute the information and I couldn't get past a page or two before it got too much.  Too many years of stress and exhaustion, I think, and endless hours of horribly boring legal and medical paperwork.  But the lockdown has really helped and that hardback is the first proper read I've done in years.  When I finally get the house re-organised and get myself a little bookcase (to double as a bedside table maybe) that book will have pride of place on it :) I can't get into ebooks; it just feels wrong to me to read off a screen.  I like to curl up with a book and actually hold it in my hand.  It feels like all the work and pleasure and research that went into it is there with you and I just don't get that off a screen.  My friend has a kindle and swears by it but they just don't do it for me.  I like audio books though.

Son is looking mighty fine, just shy of six feet now, hair longer and curly at the ends, lovely colour in his face from all the resting and relaxing (throughout college he looked exhausted most of the time) and he's so strong - we were messing about yesterday with me chucking him out of my room - only playing around but I was pushing on him to get him out the door and I couldn't budge him an inch.  Just so solid, it's amazing how much stronger men are physically even without working on it particularly, you know?  Fortunately he is a gentle giant and wouldn't hurt a fly but my days he's solid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 11, 2020, 01:23:07 PM
Slight drop in the number of cases locally but they've spread out over more areas - all fairly localised (I'm guessing clusters are families or work colleagues?  As they seem to be close together?).  Part of me wants to not check the numbers, the other bit wants to know so it's a quick peek once a day and that's it!
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 11, 2020, 06:40:11 PM
The most real story I've read yet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/10/coronavirus-denier-sick-spreader/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/10/coronavirus-denier-sick-spreader/?arc404=true)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 12, 2020, 02:21:54 AM
Ah it won't let me read more than the headline unless I subscribe :)  But I can imagine the content.  My sense here (of our situation) is that it's more to do with shambolic test and trace, asymptomatic carriers (which from private testing seem to be high in number.  One of the universities here tested every student and found hundreds had the virus but no symptoms.  Given that tests are often only being given to people with symptoms it makes me wonder how many people don't know).  Added to that the financial support is inadequate so people are working when they should be isolating, or they're not being contacted until quite a long time after the possible infection took place - two weeks is the most recent one I heard about.  I may be getting the wrong impression; I'm scanning limited amounts of reading just to get a gist but not to overwhelm myself.  I did see through the corner of my eye that Trump has declared himself immune?????????  Dear Lord.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 12, 2020, 09:19:49 AM
[Sorry, Tupp. Here's the article... Hugs-Hops]

When President Trump got sick, I had this moment of deja vu back to when I first woke up in the hospital. I know what it’s like to be humiliated by this virus. I used to call it the “scamdemic.” I thought it was an overblown media hoax. I made fun of people for wearing masks. I went all the way down the rabbit hole and fell hard on my own sword, so if you want to hate me or blame me, that’s fine. I’m doing plenty of that myself.

[About this series
Voices from the Pandemic is an oral history of covid-19 and those affected.]


The party was my idea. That’s what I can’t get over. Well, I mean, it wasn’t even a party — more like a get-together. There were just six of us, okay? My parents, my partner, and my partner’s parents. We’d been locked down for months at that point in Texas, and the governor had just come out and said small gatherings were probably okay. We’re a close family, and we hadn’t been together in forever. It was finally summer. I thought the worst was behind us. I was like: “Hell, let’s get on with our lives. What are we so afraid of?”

Some people in my family didn’t necessarily share all of my views, but I pushed it. I’ve always been out front with my opinions. I’m gay and I’m conservative, so either way I’m used to going against the grain. I stopped trusting the media for my information when it went hard against Trump in 2016. I got rid of my cable. It’s all opinion anyway, so I’d rather come up with my own. I find a little bit of truth here and a little there, and I pile it together to see what it makes. I have about 4,000 people in my personal network, and not one of them had gotten sick. Not one. You start to hear jokes about, you know, a skydiver jumps out of a plane without a parachute and dies of covid-19. You start to think: “Something’s really fishy here.” You start dismissing and denying.

I told my family: “Come on. Enough already. Let’s get together and enjoy life for once.”

They all came for the weekend. We agreed not to do any of the distancing or worry much about it. I mean, I haven’t seen my mother in months, and I’m not supposed to go up and hug her? Come on. We have a two-story house, so there was room for us to all stay here together. We all came on our own free will. It felt like something we needed. It had been months of doing nothing, feeling nothing, seeing no one, worrying about finances with this whole shutdown. My partner had been sent home from his work. I’d been at the finish line of raising $3.5 million for a new project, and that all evaporated overnight. I’d been feeling depressed and angry, and then it was like: “Okay! I can breathe.” We cooked nice meals. We watched a few movies. I played a few songs on my baby grand piano. We drove to a lake about 60 miles outside of Dallas and talked and talked. It was nothing all that special. It was great. It was normal.

I woke up Sunday morning feeling a little iffy. I have a lot of issues with sleeping, and I thought that’s probably what it was. I let everyone know: “I don’t feel right, but I’m guessing it might be exhaustion.” I was kind of achy. There was a weird vibration inside. I had a bug-eye feeling.

A few hours later, my partner was feeling a little bad, too. Then my parents. Then my father-in-law got sick the next day, after he’d already left and gone to Austin to witness the birth of his first grandchild. I have no idea which one of us brought the virus into the house, but all six of us left with it. It kept spreading from there.

I told myself it wouldn’t be that bad. “It’s the flu. It’s basically just the flu.” I didn’t have the horrible cough you keep hearing about. My breathing never got too terrible. My fever peaked for like one day at 100.5, which is nothing — barely worth mentioning. “All right. I got this. See? It was nothing.” But then some of the other symptoms started to get wild. I was sweating profusely. I would wake up in a pool of sweat. I had this tingling feeling all over my body, this radiating kind of pain. Do you remember those old space heaters that you’d plug in, and the red lines would light up and glow? I felt like that was happening inside my bones. I was burning from the inside out. I was buzzing. I was dizzy. I couldn’t even turn my head around to look at the TV. I felt like my eyeballs were in a fishbowl, just bopping around. I rubbed Icy Hot all over my head. It was nonstop headaches and sweating for probably about a week — and then it just went away. I got some of my energy back. I had a few really good days. I started working on projects around the house. I was thinking: “Okay. That’s it. Pretty bad, but not so terrible. I beat it. I managed it. Nothing worth shutting down the entire world over.” Then one day I was walking up the stairs, and all of the sudden, I couldn’t breathe. I screamed and fell flat on my face. I blacked out. I woke up a while later in the ER, and 10 doctors were standing around me in a circle. I was lying on the table after going through a CT scan. The doctors told me the virus had attacked my nervous system. They’d given me some medications that stopped me from having a massive stroke. They said I was minutes away.

I stayed in the hospital for three days, trying to get my mind around it. It was guilt, embarrassment, shame. I thought: “Okay. Maybe now I’ve paid for my mistake.” But it kept getting worse.

Six infections turned into nine. Nine went up to 14. It spread from one family member to the next, and it was like each person caught a different strain. My mother-in-law got it and never had any real symptoms. My father is 78, and he went to get checked out at the hospital, but for whatever reasons, he seemed to recover really fast. My father-in-law nearly died in his living room and then ended up in the same hospital as me on the exact same day. His mother was in the room right next to him because she was having trouble breathing. They were lying there on both sides of the wall, fighting the same virus, and neither of them ever knew the other one was there. She died after a few weeks. On the day of her funeral, five more family members tested positive.

My father-in-law’s probably my best friend. It’s an unconventional relationship. He’s 52, only nine years older than me, and we hit it off right away. He runs a construction company, and I would tag along on his jobs and ride with him around Dallas. I’ve been through a lot in my life — from food stamps to Ferraris and then back again — so I could tell a good story and make him laugh. He builds these 20,000-square-foot custom homes, but he’d been renting his whole life. We decided to go in together on 10 acres outside Dallas, and he was finally getting ready to build his own house. We’d already done the plumbing and gotten streets built on the property. We’d planted 50 pecans and oaks to give the property some shade. He had his blueprints all drawn up. It was all he wanted to talk about.

He was on supplemental oxygen, but the doctors kept reducing the amount he was getting. They thought he was getting better. He was still making jokes, so I wasn’t all that worried. He told me: “They’ve got you upstairs in the Cadillac rooms because you’re White, but all of us Mexicans are still down here in the ER.” I got sent home, and I had a lot of guilt about leaving him there. I called him at the hospital, and I was like: “I’m going to come bust you out Mission Impossible style.” He said he preferred El Chapo style. We were laughing so hard. I hung up, and a few hours later I got a call from my mother-in-law. She was hysterical. She could barely speak. She said one of his lungs had collapsed and the other was filling with fluid. They put him on a ventilator, and he lay there on life support for six or seven weeks. There was never any goodbye. He was just gone. It’s like the world swallowed him up. We could only have 10 people at the funeral, and I didn’t make that list.

I break down sometimes, but mostly I’m empty. Am I glad to be alive? I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that.

There’s no relief. This virus, I can’t escape it. It’s torn up our family. It’s all over my Facebook. It’s the election. It’s Trump. It’s what I keep thinking about. How many people would have gotten sick if I’d never hosted that weekend? One? Maybe two? The grief comes in waves, but that guilt just sits.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 12, 2020, 09:31:46 AM
Lawd, Hops.  I got painful chill bumps reading that....I still have them.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 12, 2020, 09:53:22 AM
It's a wonderful series, Lighter. I'm glad I subscribe.

I think human stories like this get through to [some] people better than arguing politicians do. (At the moment I'm watching the Amy Barrett handmaid hearing. Sigh.)

hugs
Hops

PS If anybody wants to read a few more of these stories, say the word.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 12, 2020, 05:42:12 PM
Aw, Hops, thanks for cut and pasting all of that.  I am slightly concerned that I feel no compassion?  I've noticed it a few times over the last couple of weeks.  I don't know whether I've shut down a bit just in order to cope with it all or if I'm turning into an uncaring old woman but I've noticed things that would normally make me feel sad or make me feel sorry for people are just making me shrug my shoulders and think, oh well.  I'm sorry that guy's been so ill and that other family members have died but I don't get how people don't get how bad this is?  Worldwide news with pictures of bodies piled up in streets because the morgues are full, reports of hospitals running out of body bags, emergency hospitals being built in a matter of weeks, globally.  A global media hoax?  That multiple news outlets in multiple countries are all in on, along with thousands of doctors, nurses, scientists, care home staff and all the people that have had it or lost relatives to it?  But some countries didn't join in, so have few casualties, but still did lockdowns and went along with part of the hoax but didn't reveal it to anyone?  I get people being desperate to see each other and desperate for normality but I think I struggle with the difference between, "ok, it's real but I think the risk of not earning money, not seeing anyone, not going anywhere for months is doing as much harm as getting the virus might" (which is very prevalent here right now and I understand the sentiment) but thinking it's not real?  I just don't get that bit.  Well I do hope anyway that he gets a lot better and that other people might read it and have the penny drop for them (or will they think it's a hoax?  More fake news?).  Crazy times.  Thank you for posting it, it's an interesting read :)

In local news, cases have dropped by about fifty today without any deaths in the last two weeks which is good.  They've done a map of where all the cases are and almost all are in the University town.  Fewer than twenty in our immediate local area which with a population of thirty odd thousand is pretty good compared to some areas. Johnson announced a tier system for lockdowns that makes little sense, as with all his other announcements (someone on Twitter called him a 'callow twat' which just had me laughing my head off).  As our area is low there's no change here but in some areas they've closed pubs again and people aren't allowed in each other's houses and so on.  I did get a bit low today; I'm trying not to think about the winter months but it was cold today, rained constantly and the sky was grey and it got to me a bit.  Good sleep needed tonight!  No doubt will feel better in the morning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 13, 2020, 02:02:16 PM
Denial and fear are powerful things, Tupp.


And you aren't lacking in compassion, imo.  You're a bit shell shocked, maybe. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 13, 2020, 03:33:39 PM
Denial and fear are powerful things, Tupp.


And you aren't lacking in compassion, imo.  You're a bit shell shocked, maybe. 

Lighter

Thanks, Lighter.  I'm hoping it's a bit shell shocked or something, I don't want to end up not caring about anyone!  That would be too grim.  Local numbers have dropped by a few more today with fewer clusters as well (the local authority put out various figures; I'm finding the weekly numbers easiest to follow and make sense of).  I'm hoping they keep going down but am wondering if we'll get numbers going up after every holiday if it is linked to schools and universities going back?  They're due a half term soon and then it's seven weeks or so until they break up for Christmas.  Will be difficult if the numbers keep jumping after each break.  There are apparently more in hospital at the moment than there were when they started the lockdown in March.  I'm really hoping not as many turn out to be fatal, especially as we'll have normal flu doing the rounds as well.  We will carry on staying in.  I've pretty much decided not to look at any possible house moves now until next Spring.  Our house here is small, but it's very convenient for town, food shopping and places to walk without lots of other people.  I'm just feeling it's better to stay in one place and wait for all of this to do whatever it needs to do.  It's an added pressure if we do a house move as well.  I'll be glad when it's over.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 13, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
Lordy, I'll be glad of it too, Tupp!

Meanwhile, I've simplified my brain-screeching by deciding that for now, there's just ONE thing I'll pay any attention to for safety: the daily case rate. Takes excavating the public health website and is way too complicated....should be broadcast in every locality every day. Boy are we caught flat-footed, because we haven't emphasized public health funding and education nearly enough.

Simplicity (even in thinking) seems to be helping me stay calm. It's always sad to me when people get caught in denial or play games with themselves about what's safe and what's stupid (like the guy in the story) but I do think education and government priorities are the problem, not the ignorance of individuals. People learn what they have opportunity to learn.

Makes it easier to feel empathy because I feel they've been terribly underserved, when it comes to education.

(And if you can't feel much at the mo', you're hardly a monster! And not alone.)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 14, 2020, 08:05:36 AM
It's a shame you have to wade through the site to work the numbers out, Hopsie, it does make it a more difficult task to do.  Our local authority have come up with a method that works really well for me.  They have a daily dashboard that shows the number of diagnosed cases in the last week for our county and then the three counties that border it (as a lot of people go back and forth for work and leisure activities).  Underneath the weekly case numbers they record the weekly death rate - very clear and easy to read.  Then you can click on other boxes that take you through all the other data; daily rates, national numbers, excess deaths, Covid deaths - really as much information as anyone might need.  They also do a map that just uses colours to show where the highest numbers of cases are (and for us at the moment it's the University town which, thankfully, we are about ninety minutes away from).  For me that works well; the weekly numbers just give me an idea of how it's going (and at the moment they are dropping a little each day) and they update daily at 4pm.  I find more detail than that a bit much for my brain to manage; at the moment our immediate area has very few cases (I think it was less than twenty at the beginning of the week) and that makes me feel reassured.

I do agree that governance has been and is a huge issue; it's a shit show here and even die hard Conservative voters are up in arms about Johnson and the way he's handled this.  I can understand why people just do their own thing.  I guess with my son's health problems I've been more aware of what could happen and more willing to take steps to keep him safe.  I think a lot of people have never been seriously ill or disabled and just don't know what it's like, or understand how little support you actually get in real life if you end up permanently unable to work.  Even those with money behind them quickly find it's all gone when their income drops to zero.  It's been a big shock to the system for everyone, I think, although in different ways depending on circumstances.  I'll be heaving a big sigh of relief once it's all gone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 14, 2020, 11:16:02 AM
What bugs me is that the health region website initially used a nice color-coded bar graph that showed the numbers directly. For some reason they've replaced it with a squiggly graph that requires hovering over a tiny point to get the daily case count. Just weird.

"...understand how little support you actually get in real life...." (when unable to work due to disability).

I so agree. I think that applies to just about every single structure that protects the vulnerable. Or purports to. And I think people buried in structural and bureaucratic systems that are so unwieldly wind up losing part of their humanity...the empathy that would drive them to legislate more humanely.

But that's not a simple subject and I'm trying to simplify my wee brain to keep myself serene. I don't know how FT activists contain their anger, frankly. But I do know that helping the right side eases the pain.

I guess it's another example of: Ask the universe for what you want, as long as you release the outcome. Asking takes different forms for different folks: donating, persuading, voting, volunteering, marching, going to jail for your convictions. I'm on the cowardly end, lousy at direct confrontation. But I'm mostly at peace about it.

That goes back to being kind to myself and being my own friend, I think. Takes discipline and effort to deny the critical inner voice a bullhorn in my head, but I think it's gotten softer over time.

I think yours has too, Tupp.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 15, 2020, 01:25:44 PM
I think simple, good quality information is so important just now.  It's all been handled so badly that every decision now will be the wrong one.  A friend and I were talking this afternoon and whatever your situation, this is going and will go badly for a lot of people.  The friend and I are in similar situations - both have disabled kids and are both able to stay indoors for the most part, so that's what we're doing.  But I spoke to someone else I know (casual acquaintance) and both she and her husband have lost their jobs due to the Covid situation.  They're alright for money for one more month but if one of them doesn't get a job in that time they're in big trouble, and long term they both need to be working in order to be able to pay their mortgage and associated costs.  Simple information at least gives you an idea of your personal risk level and what you can or can't do.  Such a shambles.

But in other news, cases have dropped in our county again today.  I'm assuming there was a big jump because of the Uni going back, but that they've all isolated and so the numbers haven't continued to grow.  The figures are weekly but updated daily so the number going down is a good thing, and still no recorded deaths.  That's heading in the right direction.  Not so in other parts of the country but for now I'm counting my blessings - we had sun today as well!  So nice.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 16, 2020, 11:38:33 AM
Big drop in local cases again today and the current ones are still mostly centred around the University town (which we aren't anywhere near).  I'd hazard a guess that our chances of catching this at the moment (providing we stay close to home and continue to take precautions) are probably no higher than the chance of some other awful disease or accident coming our way.  Not that it will make me start rushing about sans mask and many other parts of the country are in a dreadful state but I feel more comfortable at the moment.  Slight concern is that they're not testing which is why numbers are dropping but I've no way of knowing that so no point worrying about it.  Have had two people I know personally affected now though, and that does bring it closer to home.  Previously it's been friends of friends or someone's work colleagues mum or something like that but just this week one friend in contact with someone who tested positive so now isolating for two weeks (no symptoms yet but staying in just in case) and another friend had a case in the care home her dad's in - locked down fast so it was contained to one case and no-one else got ill but it's closer to home than it was and that's a worry for everyone.  But overall in our little part of the world it's looking okay xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 16, 2020, 12:18:35 PM
For me, day-to-day changes or dribbles of news on the virus have lost meaning. Anecdotal stuff doesn't get me to conclude much. I'm just grasping that the overall, global, national trends are UP for this fall and winter. (It's true here but most individual places are just drops in an infected pond, given mobility.)

It's time to double down on all the precautions as cold weather comes, is my understanding. Hunker down again and try to contol the yearnings for "normal." It's new normal now, period. The time it changes is the time after we've all taken a well-proven effective vaccine. And Covid-19 may be with us always, like a serious disease that may rise again among the unvaccinated. (Vaccines even for the flu are not 100%. We all imagine 100% safety about many things...it's human nature.)

What I've heard that makes sense to me is that the largest incident of spreading is actually from family or friend gatherings. People are so pent up for socializing and yearning for contact that they're dropping their guard.

It's hard. It's a real test. Some will dig in and find the inner resources and patience to come through healthy. Some just won't or can't.

But life always has beauty, always has meaning, and always has happiness within it. I admire you a lot, Tupp, for finding those over and over again. I intend to too!

Hugs,
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 17, 2020, 05:18:07 AM
That's interesting, Hops, I've found that looking at the big picture makes me feel more anxious, whereas keeping an eye on my personal risk level (by seeing how many infected people are in the area) makes me feel better - although interestingly it hasn't changed my habits in terms of going out, it's still just once a week to the cinema.  I think I've become very tuned in to what increases my anxiety and what doesn't at the moment, and I think maybe it's changed from normal for me?  I did see that one of the hospitals is full and has no more capacity just now.  It's odd that what I'm watching happen everywhere at the minute is all stuff that's affected us personally for years.  Reporting, for example, is quite reckless, I feel.  The headline about that hospital being full is very alarming.  If it had said 'overflow hospital opening up to cope with demand' it's still clear that demand is increasing but it doesn't elicit the same panic because it focuses on what's being done about it.  I've had that a lot with my son over the years - "we can't meet his needs" rather than "we can't meet his needs right now, but here's what we'll do about it long term and here's how we'll support both of you in the meantime".  I've noticed in myself that the first induces panic and makes me feel very alone whilst the second makes me feel calmer and supported.  It's just interesting to me to see that happening on a much bigger scale here at the moment (and I do think I've detached myself from it a lot - self preservation I guess).  It's interesting to see how different people cope in different ways.  One friend is like me; minimal risks daily, not going out, no visitors, whilst her husband is a news junky and wants the reports on constantly (they've had to compromise; he has the news on his phone, not the TV, and he has to ring his geeky science friend to talk about it, not talk to her lol).  She calls me and we do the mum stuff of what the kids have been doing and what our most recent baking attempts have been like (hers are usually good, mine aren't).  That feels normal for both of us.

Nationally I've no idea what's going on and neither does anyone else, by the sound of it.  They've got different lockdowns in different areas for different reasons, different levels of support for different groups of people, different scientists saying different things, everyone's got a different idea of how this should all be managed.  I've gone full on mad bird feeding lady and the tree outside our house is full of birds morning and evening now, with a line of cats sitting on the wall just waiting patiently lol.  Our cat ignores all of it and just stays inside sleeping.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 17, 2020, 12:55:48 PM
It makes total sense to me Tupp that different focuses work best for different individuals. There's no "better" way to think about all this. Like you, I've just figured out what works best for my own mind.

BTW, I absolutely lovelovelove your comment about media.

Quote
The headline ... is very alarming.  If it had said 'overflow hospital opening up to cope with demand' it's still clear that demand is increasing but it doesn't elicit the same panic because it focuses on what's being done about it.  I've had that a lot with my son..."we can't meet his needs" rather than "we can't meet his needs right now, but here's what we'll do about it long term and here's how we'll support both of you in the meantime"....  the first induces panic and makes me feel very alone whilst the second makes me feel calmer and supported.

Even in the most mature and reliable media, I find myself writing letters expressing how frustrating it is to read casual click-bait headlines when the media could be doing SO MUCH to improve civic life.

When you tune into words and their meanings AND implications as we do, it's maddening. The Fourth Estate is so incredibly important to society rebuilding. Some of them do seem to know and try to reflect this responsibility. And I credit the best media with positive power, for sure. Good journalists are heroes to me.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 18, 2020, 04:34:36 AM
It makes total sense to me Tupp that different focuses work best for different individuals. There's no "better" way to think about all this. Like you, I've just figured out what works best for my own mind.

BTW, I absolutely lovelovelove your comment about media.

Quote
The headline ... is very alarming.  If it had said 'overflow hospital opening up to cope with demand' it's still clear that demand is increasing but it doesn't elicit the same panic because it focuses on what's being done about it.  I've had that a lot with my son..."we can't meet his needs" rather than "we can't meet his needs right now, but here's what we'll do about it long term and here's how we'll support both of you in the meantime"....  the first induces panic and makes me feel very alone whilst the second makes me feel calmer and supported.

Even in the most mature and reliable media, I find myself writing letters expressing how frustrating it is to read casual click-bait headlines when the media could be doing SO MUCH to improve civic life.

When you tune into words and their meanings AND implications as we do, it's maddening. The Fourth Estate is so incredibly important to society rebuilding. Some of them do seem to know and try to reflect this responsibility. And I credit the best media with positive power, for sure. Good journalists are heroes to me.

hugs
Hops

Yes, nodding, nodding and nodding some more!  Imagine the difference if reporting, in general, was fact based, with clear, contextualised opinion from people who genuinely know what they're talking about, with a good smattering of positive stories as well.  Not Pollyanna, endlessly smiling stories but just reports on all the community groups that have sprung up to help people out and other good things that do happen, but that tend to be dwarfed by all the sensational stuff that happens.  It's hard going, the media has such an influence, imagine if it were a more positive one!  It would be so helpful.

And yes, I think everyone's found their way to get through this as best they can.  Most people I'm speaking to just day to day are in 'let's get on with it' mode.  They're taking whatever precautions they can or have to, they're all fed up with the Government and their lack of reliability and I think most people feel they just need to get through this as best they can now.  Our numbers jumped again yesterday, and over a wider area.  Still not right by our door but my little bubble burst quickly when I saw that.  The only reassurance for me was that it shows they are still testing - I did have a moment of wondering if the numbers were dropping because they just weren't testing people anymore :)  I did realise I need to structure my day better and I've struggled to work out how best to do that.  Eventually I sat down and went through the TV and Radio guides and I've now got a list of shows that son and I both like to watch or listen to (together or apart, depending on what they are).  I'm going to use that as a way of creating little breaks during the day and aiming to get certain things done before a certain programme starts.  I just feel I need a little bit of an incentive or deadline to focus my mind a bit.

 I went for a walk as soon as I got up; the river is high!  I've never seen it that high before.  Another couple of feet and it will be over the wall and into town.  We're up hill from it so we'll be okay but I'm hoping that doesn't get any higher now as they've already had one flood this year.  Beautiful to look at, though.  Friendly dog ran over and wanted his belly rubbed.  They do make me laugh the way they just launch themselves at anyone that looks like they might stroke them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 18, 2020, 09:40:22 AM
I like that idea, of responding to the ongoing outside situation with a tweak in how much structure works well for you during the day.

I'm trying a bit more too, in my spazzy fashion. I have gotten sleep into a better pattern thanks to: SAD light (funny, at first I wrote ADD light, still caffeinating!) every morning including sunny ones, ashwagandha 2x/day, more active now that knee is 90% good to go....feels better. Tidying up patio and excited about fire pit.

Hope your river doesn't harm anyone as it rises, but how lovely to live near rushing water. I do too, a small bend in a small river is 5 minutes from my door, but I haven't gone down to it since I hurt myself. The path's a bit steep for a tricky knee.

Is your river good-sized? Big enough for bridges over it? Any barges in sight?

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 18, 2020, 01:14:27 PM
Big bridges over it, Hopsie, it's tidal so sometimes you get seals!  Not very often but every now and again you see one.  Lots of people fish along there and a couple of hundred years ago it was a very busy port so there's a lot of history - lots of old buildings, some parts of the town still have the old cobbles in the streets although much has been flattened over of course.  It's lit up at night so the lights are still on the time I go out and it looks really lovely.  People kayak along it but there isn't room under the bridge for big boats to get through.  I think the current is very strong; there are old stories of people drowning in there, it's also quite dirty looking so people don't swim in it.  Lots of rubbish unfortunately, I don't know why people litter like they do.  But it's still nice to walk along there.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 18, 2020, 03:50:19 PM
Ohhhh, so happy to read a vivid description of your town!
I do envy you that kind of environment. RIVER!

And yes, the rubbish and pollution is very sad. Yet moving water
somehow still calms the human psyche. And we can clean it up.

When you walk in the mornings does Son come? Or does he have
a lie-in so you can enjoy a little Tupp-time?

I think morning walks are the BEST, though I just enjoyed a brief
early afternoon one with Pooch. It's absolutely PERFECT here today.
High 60s, sunny, cool but not cold. I've seen and chatted with several
neighbors and have a contact to get the number for a lovely lady up
the way I've chatted with briefly and am positive I'd like to get to know.
Went past her place on a walk a few days ago and she had a whole circle
of about 8 women sitting socially-distanced with masks on in a circle in
the sunshine, knitting. (Got no interest in knitting but DO like the idea
of befriending someone who creates circles like that!)

Happy Sunday to you, Tupp. Now that I've re-involved myself in the church
bit by bit, it's becoming one of the Best Days again. Good faces and good music
via Zoom, but lately even good ftf gatherings. (They're doing a meet-in-the-park-to-talk thing--limited number, masked, 8 feet apart, bring own chair--I want to go to next Sunday afternoon. It'll "fill us all up" a little before the cold closes in.)

hugs
Hops

PS--SEALS? I'm speechless. For no reason I watched several videos last night of this wonderful team of guys who chase seals on the huge beach somewhere (not Galapagos, I forget) where many of them congregate. For the purpose of nabbing the ones that are entangled in fishing lines. They catch them either with a net or by kind of leaping on them to hold them down, and it's amazing how many of the seals calm down and recognize that someone is helping them--even though they have to painfully dig into their necks or flippers with a metal hook and knife to cut the line free which can take quite a few minutes. It's remarkable and heroic. A temporary diversion from dog-rescue videos! Although you'll be pleased to know I've added the cat ones. Check out Hope for Paws on YouTube.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 19, 2020, 03:47:41 AM
Aw I'll keep a look out for seal help videos, Hopsie, I love those videos of people helping animals out and yes, they do seem to know sometimes that someone's trying to help.  I keep watching the ones where someone rescues a dog that's been abandoned or badly treated and how they bring them back to life.  Amazing what some kindness and TLC will do.  The thing that always strikes me is that they get results by letting the dogs do what they need to - if they hide behind the sofa for weeks or only eat food off the floor they let them do that and get comfortable in their own time.  I think we should do that more with people.  Too much pressure to get fixed within a set time line or in a certain way and it just doesn't work like that.  I'll add seal videos to the list!

We don't get many in the river but we do along the coast line and as it's tidal, they do sometimes wander along looking for fish.  There is a cafe near one of the beaches here that's very close to the top of the slip way so at high tide the water is inches from the building and they have, on occasion, looked up to see a seal looking in the window which I find very funny.  They're beautiful creatures.

The social circles/church groups/distanced chats with neighbours sounds lovely, Hops, I'm so glad you are getting that interaction and have people around you who are taking precautions but also getting out there.  I feel more anxious about it here; more people seem to be only taking precautions when they have to (going in to a shop, for example) so I don't feel confident about socialising at the moment.  One lady I've seen for coffee a few times as she is being careful as well but other people I know are more or less ignoring it.  It's kind of weird.  We're averaging 100 deaths a day here again now, which is apparently where we were at a month before we were topping out at a thousand a day in the summer.  I get that more people than that die each day under normal circumstances but this is on top of that.  If we were seeing planes crashing and losing a hundred a day very few people would be flying.  Yet this doesn't seem to elicite the same concern.  It's kind of weird but we're just doing our thing so I'm trying not to think about what others are doing just now.  I'm glad you've got those opportunities ahead to help get through the winter.  I'm experimenting with my SAD lamp; I think I've left it on too long a couple of times as I've ended up going to bed very late so I'm adjusting the times a bit now - a good balance is needed.

I am trying to walk for an hour without son, and then take him out for half an hour later in the day (half an hour is about as much as he can manage without getting too tired).  It's funny because we had two days last week where we were out doing things so we did walk about an hour, in short bursts, and I just didn't get the same effect from it that I do from walking for an hour on my own.  I think it's the head space that helps.  I can leave him for an hour and he's okay; I text my sister when I'm leaving so she knows if she doesn't hear from me that something will have happened and son has his own phone so he can call me if there's a problem, which there hasn't been because basically one he's in front of his computer he doesn't move anyway.  I just tell him not to answer the door but apparently you can get a thing on a phone now where you can see who's at the door even if you're out?  I'll have to look in to that.

On the subject of door cameras I did watch some clips of YouTube of drunk people trying to get in their own front doors and not being able to manage it.  The door cameras pick up what they're doing and it made me laugh so much.  One guy was talking to the door asking it nicely to let him in and not to make any noise because he didn't want his wife to know.  Funny drunk people make me laugh.

Happy Sunday!  Although it's Monday here now so Happy Monday! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 19, 2020, 01:34:44 PM
Thanks, Tupp.

City plus County are what I check daily. That's basically our metro area--I have as many friends in county neighborhoods as in the city.

Today we have 10 new cases but that bounces around -- a few days ago it was 32. The total case # in these two localities so far is 3,000, with 55 deaths. The curve is heading up.

Happy little joggers blasted close past me on my walk yesterday, huffing and blowing, mask free. Fortunately I'd happened to re-anchor my mask just before I heard them, heading up to greet a gardening neighbor. Unbelievable.

What part of PLUME do they not understand? What part of OUTSIDE IS NOT MAGIC THOUGH IT'S BETTER do they not understand?

I am developing a very getoffmylawn feeling about runners. They can dangle a mask from one ear just as easily as I can, and yank it up when coming up behind a walker. I guess the runners' high means too-high-to-notice-slower-humans. Spit.

Grrrrrr,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 20, 2020, 10:57:56 AM
I hear you on the joggers, Hopsie!  And similarly oblivious people.  We've been to the beach today, first time since March.  Very careful, masks, hands, took food and drink with us so we didn't need to go in to shops, etc.  Beautiful weather, the beach was lovely and most people doing their bit but some, just oblivious.  Walking very close or letting their dogs walk the full length of the lead and taking up the pavement, meaning we had to get into the road to get past them.  The local authority have tried to organise it so everyone walks on the left, to keep distance more easily so there are signs up and someone has written "Don't be a slave" on the sign that says "Please keep left".  How can anyone compare walking to one side (which is what we all do when we drive, right?  To avoid crashing into each other?) with slavery?  Seriously.  I feel so sorry for all the people who are working extra hard, spending money on PPE for their staff, staying in, avoiding family and so on, and wonder how much of that effort is mitigated by people taking no notice.  Very demoralising for them.  Anyway, it was a nice day but I think next week we might try a different beach as it's usually quieter than that one.  Son was very excited though :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 27, 2020, 01:20:48 PM
Death rate in our area just jumped up.  Sigh.  We're staying in all week as it's half term holidays and the place is full of holiday makers.  Just so frustrating, surely people should be staying close to home unless further travel is absolutely essential?  Still seem to be so many people who just don't get it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 27, 2020, 05:53:27 PM
I hear you, Tupp. The UK is in bad straits.

For me, having ZERO expectation that others will respond to science rationally....makes me calmer and happier. Otherwise it's a constant roller coaster of hope and disappointment.

Where people disappoint, animals and nature never do....

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 29, 2020, 12:42:37 PM
I thought I'd replied yesterday Hopsie but it's not here, I must have dreamed it!  Yep.  I think people focus on what's most important to them.  I was talking to a friend earlier and the differences in our approach became clear as we were chatting - I'm concerned about my son dying if he gets it, she's concerned about not being able to go on holiday over the winter.  It's just different priorities, isn't it?  Anyway - we're on Medium alert level here at the moment but local cases have dropped a little bit, with no more deaths locally so that's good. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 30, 2020, 01:36:17 PM
Numbers and deaths are up across the county but have dropped slightly in our immediate local area, which is good.  I spent the afternoon sorting out piles of son's education stuff, projects to work on, things to get rid of, things we might still use, and rearranging everything so it's easier to get to when we need it.  In doing so, I discovered a list that it turns out his tutor (before we moved here) had got him to write up, with suggestions of how he could avoid moving, which included going to court to have a judge say he didn't have to move.  Fortunately that seems to have gone over my son's head; he had no idea what it meant and wouldn't have understood what she was talking about, but she'd obviously put some time and effort into this (items on the list are things like 'practise disagreeing' and 'remember your other options'.  It's clearly come from her; I don't mean this in an unkind way but he just doesn't have the capacity to come up with things like that on his own even now, and certainly wouldn't have done three years ago.  I was absolutely fuming - not with him, but realising that she was sat in my home, drinking my tea and eating my biscuits whilst encouraging him to refuse to move.  At age 15!  What did the silly bint think would happen if he decided to stay on his own, given that he can't look after himself?  I've only put it in this bit because it made me want to break my diet soooooo badly but I want to focus on my fitness during this Covid thing so I have resisted and I am going to go for another walk after dinner.  What is it with these people?  Endless interference and never any help.  Anyway, I have talked to him about it all and he says he's really glad we moved and he likes it better here.  I did ask him if he wants to move back if we get the chance and he said no, he wants to stay - he doesn't mind another house if it means he gets a bigger room :)  But in this area.  I've told him it's always alright to say he doesn't want to do something or he's not happy, and that I can always get him someone else to talk to if he doesn't feel comfortable talking to me and he said he's fine.  So I'm just proud that I kept up my Covid diet even though finding that out made me want to eat pizza and loads of biscuits.  Lol x
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on October 30, 2020, 06:14:55 PM
Well, I'm amazed at your resolve, Tupp.  My sister and I ordered gf Dominoes Pizza 2 nights ago on a really tough day.  We felt worse for it too.

Keep up the good habits, if you want to.  Your body and clearer thinking will thank you for it.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 31, 2020, 01:50:22 AM
Well, I'm amazed at your resolve, Tupp.  My sister and I ordered gf Dominoes Pizza 2 nights ago on a really tough day.  We felt worse for it too.

Keep up the good habits, if you want to.  Your body and clearer thinking will thank you for it.

Lighter

Lol, the urge was strong, Lighter!  It was all I could think about.  But the funny thing was, once I'd decided that I wasn't going to do it, all those deep down feelings that surged up - you know how it is, that fear just consumes you all over again - started to subside, and quite quickly as well.  Usually, I'd stuff my face and then ruminate on it all for hours, whilst trying not to, and then eat more crap.  But I started to feel calmer quite quickly, found some Cauliflower Curry in the freezer so I had that with brown rice and a bit of mango chutney and then went for the walk.  It really helped.  I had a bath when I got back - didn't sleep too well but that seems to be normal at the minute.  It just felt better not to let it control my life again, if that makes sense?  But the lure of the pizza was strong, I can understand you ordering yours in :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 31, 2020, 05:44:41 AM
Tupp, I can imagine how jarring it must've felt to find those notes from the tutor. I wonder if moving at that time seemed scary and stressful to your son, or if he was reacting to all the changes or prospect of them.

Change is quite hard on people with autism, as I understand it. Not exhilarating or exciting, just scary. Or maybe he was picking up on all the stress and intensity you were feeling. He's a sensitive guy deep inside and I wonder if it must be hard to express his emotional life sometimes?

I'm so glad that he responded well in your conversation with him. He's grown in inner strength in his own ways just as you have during this time.

We're all being tested one way or another. Sorry that paper turned up to rattle you.

Be extra good to yourself next week, friend. You've been having a rough go the last few days. I am mentally shooting arrows of light into those gray clouds over your head!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 31, 2020, 06:41:52 AM
Tupp, I can imagine how jarring it must've felt to find those notes from the tutor. I wonder if moving at that time seemed scary and stressful to your son, or if he was reacting to all the changes or prospect of them.

Change is quite hard on people with autism, as I understand it. Not exhilarating or exciting, just scary. Or maybe he was picking up on all the stress and intensity you were feeling. He's a sensitive guy deep inside and I wonder if it must be hard to express his emotional life sometimes?

I'm so glad that he responded well in your conversation with him. He's grown in inner strength in his own ways just as you have during this time.

We're all being tested one way or another. Sorry that paper turned up to rattle you.

Be extra good to yourself next week, friend. You've been having a rough go the last few days. I am mentally shooting arrows of light into those gray clouds over your head!

hugs
Hops

I don't think I explained it very well Hops, it was the tutor that was the problem, not son.  I'm very aware of the difficulties he has with moving house and the notes weren't about that xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on October 31, 2020, 08:17:08 AM
Oh I'm sorry, Tupp.

I thought the tutor might've been talking about that with him because for some reason he'd brought it up or made comments that she interpreted as important enough to "strategize" with him. Waaaaay too many assumptions on my part, and sharing with you my brilliant insights about how an autistic kid might feel about moving house was very inappropriate. I apologize for that too.

And how inappropriate it was for her to initiate that kind of conversation with him rather blows my mind. One should NEVER get between a child and their mother, unless abuse is suspected. We all know how that has scalded and harmed you in the past, so I can understand why it was triggering to run across the note.

That really was a weird thing for her to do. Curious: Was she young? Relatively inexperienced? I'm glad it's well past, and didn't mean to poke a bruise. Please forgive my lapse into cluelessness.

I think you explained it fine; I just went off on a knowitall-tangent. (I'm good at those.)

humble hug,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on October 31, 2020, 03:55:27 PM
Oh I'm sorry, Tupp.

I thought the tutor might've been talking about that with him because for some reason he'd brought it up or made comments that she interpreted as important enough to "strategize" with him. Waaaaay too many assumptions on my part, and sharing with you my brilliant insights about how an autistic kid might feel about moving house was very inappropriate. I apologize for that too.

And how inappropriate it was for her to initiate that kind of conversation with him rather blows my mind. One should NEVER get between a child and their mother, unless abuse is suspected. We all know how that has scalded and harmed you in the past, so I can understand why it was triggering to run across the note.

That really was a weird thing for her to do. Curious: Was she young? Relatively inexperienced? I'm glad it's well past, and didn't mean to poke a bruise. Please forgive my lapse into cluelessness.

I think you explained it fine; I just went off on a knowitall-tangent. (I'm good at those.)

humble hug,
Hops

Nothing to apologise for, Hopsie, I was vague about it so it wasn't clear she was the problem, she was my age with kids my son's age so I suspect the usual public sector problem we have of people walking into situations they don't understand, deciding you're doing it all wrong and sticking their noses in with no clear idea of why or what the outcome will be.  I'm wondering now if she was the reason he was saying he didn't want to go.  He said a couple of phrases at the time that didn't sound like him but as he was going to Youth Club I assumed he'd picked them up from the other kids.  Doesn't matter now, I just get baffled at the lack of common sense and forethought that so many of them display but there we are.  The important thing was I didn't break my diet!  And have stuck to it today as well.

In Covid news, dopey face has (I think) announced another national lockdown from next week although he's leaving schools, colleges and universities open which, along with all the key workers is probably about half the country still going out every day.  Due to end beginning of December if they get infections down; they've just announced 1 million people infected since it started and between 42 and 62 thousand Covid related deaths, depending on which set of figures you use.  Our local area has dropped slightly again today though and if they shut a lot down again next week hopefully we'll get down to zero again soon, at least in our little bit.  What an absolute pigs ear they have made of all of this.  High death rate and trashed economy.  Couldn't even pick one or the other.

Trick or treat was banned so son and I did our own indoors; he knocked on the sitting room door and I gave him some chocolate lol.  He's had his face painted all day (he did it himself this morning) and we're going out for a walk in a bit just to look at some of the decorations that are up.  We did our little pumpkin and it's in the window as we speak.  It has finally stopped raining which is a relief, I think it's been a solid week of downpours? xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on November 01, 2020, 10:58:14 AM
It's bedlam here.  People have been panic buying all weekend and the shops are empty.  Why on earth do people do it?  We only run out because people hoard; the shops won't be closing, they get deliveries every day, it will literally be no different to any other time.  I just can't believe the stupidity, again, even seeing how stupid it was last time hasn't stopped them.  'We will not comply' is trending on Twitter, I mean, seriously?  What part of 'this is really serious' do they not get?  It has been appallingly handled, we could be in a much better place than we are, people have worked really hard to re-open their businesses and to have to shut them again could have been avoided with decent testing and contact tracing, plus assurances that wages would be covered if people had to stay home.  But surely people can see that behaving like dicks is just going to make it worse for longer?  I am truly baffled.  Roasting peppers, beetroot and garlic for dinner tonight, lots of vitamins and anti-oxidants.  Weigh in tomorrow, end of first week, I'll let you know if I've lost any weight :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on November 01, 2020, 11:58:08 AM
I'm sorry tot was cancelled there, but glad you were safe and finding ways to enjoy it with your ds, Tupp.

My youngest threw herself into the holiday spirit, helped shop, stuff and arrange treat bags....really good onesbc we expected under 30 kids, then dressed up SO cool and warmed to her part...providing a memorable Halloween for the kids in the year of Covid.

She put up a table to provide distance.  She kept me focused and we laughed and laughed the whole time.

She scared 3 teen boys so badly in me 1 got a treat bag, then I chased them off our street while they laughed screamed and fl talking about how they had a real haunted house experience....just giddy and so pleased to be away from us.

Next year I want to do zombies with our cars parked askew....some door flung open with bodies and real zombies that jump and chase.....SO much fun.

We truck or treated the other big haunted house and that guy was dressed up and chucking candy down a decorated tube, one at a time.  Much fun and banter and happiness was had by all.

If I didn't say, our theme was scary clowns this year, if imperfectly crafted.  I threw on my traditional witch costume....youngest did Victorian clothing with amazing uncanny makeup....so cool to look at.  With heels she was 6feet tall!  Beads, silk and round sunglasses beneath a very interesting hat.

Will have to look up Elk bars....the kids say those are most prized treat.  I think are homemade....maybe next year.

Lighter





Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on November 01, 2020, 12:31:17 PM
That sounds so lovely, Lighter, I'm really hoping we can do something very big next year.  It was eerily quiet last night; usually it's really busy from about 4pm onwards, the little ones first and then the older ones come and it's so much fun.  I'm glad you had such a good time and enjoyed yourselves.

I've decided I'm going to have to be more proactive about scheduling in fun stuff for us and social time in some way as well, plus different activities for son.  It's so chaotic here I just can't see how they're going to get a handle on it.  I think we're going to be in for months again now.  I'm digging deep to come up with ideas of things to do and ways to get out and about when the weather allows.  It did stop raining as it was getting dark tonight so we got out for half an hour which made a difference xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on November 01, 2020, 03:51:31 PM
Tup:
The thing about going through my life in pictures...my father and mother and grandparent's and great granparent's and great great was...
it somehow finished processing all the stuff knocking around my brain.


I feel super present. 

Very focused on making the most of my limited moments on this earth.  No regrets or panic.  Just...
the comfort of being present and having very clear priorities without the past or other people's stuff pulling me off track.

And it feels like....experiencing every moment as though it was my last.....without being sad or wrong.

Just....SO laser focused on the moments, and it's almost an altered state....feels like, anyway.  Just noticing everything around me in the bathroom brings comfort and joy and gratitude for what I have in those moments.....for the safety and power and privacy and chance to create more sacred space for myself and lived ones.

I don't care about collecting stuff...I care about honoring things that bring me joy.  I care about having an uncluttered space to live my life.

So.....I have the challenge to edit down generations of stuff...with my dibs helping...so we all have sunny floors and spaces.

We got so much done at my dad's lake house.  So much to do, still.

It feels likebreathing pure air....no junk or distractions, even though we rarely agree on everything.  We have the same goals.

Lighter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on November 03, 2020, 12:45:50 PM
Tupp:

Liverpool is putting a Corona virus test program of 100% of people as a pilot program for entire country.

Is that a positI've thing, or do you think they won't follow through?

I saw a 1 hour turnaround for the results projected.

((Tupp and son))

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on November 03, 2020, 01:46:08 PM
Tupp:

Liverpool is putting a Corona virus test program of 100% of people as a pilot program for entire country.

Is that a positI've thing, or do you think they won't follow through?

I saw a 1 hour turnaround for the results projected.

((Tupp and son))

I honestly don't know, Lighter, I don't see how it would work in any practical long term way? It's voluntary so I'd imagine a lot of asymptomatic people wouldn't bother (or certainly not more than once).  People would have to take time off work to do it; many  can't afford to.  Organisational skills in the UK are generally always shambolic, long queues, things not happening when they're supposed to, IT systems are always terrible and crash constantly.  They've not managed to keep up with demand for tests for people who have symptoms so I'm slightly baffled as to how they're suddenly going to be able to test half a million people every two weeks (or weekly according to some reports) and churn out the results in an hour.  You'd only know you're negative at that time; the moment you come into contact with someone else you're at risk again so people would still need to keep away from each other, presumably?  You'd still need people to self isolate if they're told they have it and there are people who won't (already cases where that's happened).  I'm skeptical, to be honest, especially if they then want to roll it out nationwide - I'm just not convinced that a government who've made such a monumental cock up of it from the word go are suddenly going to start running and efficient and effective service, or that people will comply with it.  But we'll see, it would be nice to be wrong about it and for it to make a huge difference! xx

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on November 03, 2020, 09:03:43 PM
You'd think all failing global areas would bring in consultants from areas of the world who put competent testing programs in place, wouldn't you?

I mean.....someone already figured it out.  Is it willful ignorance?  Stupidity?  Pride?

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on November 04, 2020, 01:11:37 AM
I don't know, Lighter - and I also don't know how I put my last reply inside a quote box :)  Lol.  I suspect it's money - currently all the major systems to deal with this have been contracted out to private companies run by family members of Tory MPs.  12 billion has been spent on a Test and Trace system that doesn't work, and the woman running it is married to the MP who is supposed to investigate fairness and clarity or something like that.  It's another blatant rob from the public purse and my guess is that's the underlying reason for not taking - free of charge, I think - offers of efficient testing programmes in other countries.  I think as well that the cossetted, over protected public schoolboys running the country are so arrogant that they'd rather let tens of thousands die than accept help when it's offered, particularly when the whole 'we're leaving Europe, we won the bloody war' nonsense has been raging for so long now.  I suspect it would be seen as showing weakness.  Top docs have been saying from the beginning that test and trace should be dealt with in local areas with each local authority choosing the level of measures to take dependent on current numbers and the number of vulnerable people.  Maybe if this scheme goes well that's what will happen now but to be honest I think it could all be too late anyway - it seems to be out of control again with hospitals saying they're over run and ambulance services saying they're very busy.  If it's true?  No-one seems to know anything anymore.  Sigh.  I'm off out for my walk!  Have lovely day xx xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 04, 2020, 12:04:21 PM
Quote
the cossetted, over protected public schoolboys running the country are so arrogant that they'd rather let tens of thousands die

Hate to be so one-note as I am when I pull way back and stare hard at society.

But the truth is to me, toxic masculinity has been destroying the world for a long time. At every level. War, pollution, corruption, etc etc. Doesn't mean women can't be toxic too, but when cultures allow the toxic side of male power to dominate and fester, that kind of entitlement/arrogance rules.

Because empathy understands the power of cooperation and nurture, it is more intelligent than raw power. Raw dominance power, unfortunately, may be strategic about some systems but is stupid about humanity, imagination and community.

We're in for some hard years. Meanwhile, back to trying not to obsess over election updates more than once an hour.

Covid is like Honey Badger, and many politicians.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on November 04, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
Quote
the cossetted, over protected public schoolboys running the country are so arrogant that they'd rather let tens of thousands die

Hate to be so one-note as I am when I pull way back and stare hard at society.

But the truth is to me, toxic masculinity has been destroying the world for a long time. At every level. War, pollution, corruption, etc etc. Doesn't mean women can't be toxic too, but when cultures allow the toxic side of male power to dominate and fester, that kind of entitlement/arrogance rules.

Because empathy understands the power of cooperation and nurture, it is more intelligent than raw power. Raw dominance power, unfortunately, may be strategic about some systems but is stupid about humanity, imagination and community.

We're in for some hard years. Meanwhile, back to trying not to obsess over election updates more than once an hour.

Covid is like Honey Badger, and many politicians.

hugs
Hops

I agree, Hopsie, and not in an 'anti man' way - I think that kind of masculine behaviour is just as damaging for those men who aren't like that (and yep, some women can be awful as well).  But overall we'd have far fewer battles on so many fronts if people worked co-operatively.  Saying that, I've no idea how it would ever be implemented on a national or global level.  People here are panic buying again, stripping the shelves bare and it's so clearly unnecessary and incredibly stupid, but still they're doing it.  The queue outside one shop in Essex was, apparently, 1300 feet long yesterday.  We went in to town this morning for our acupuncture appointment and to go to the library.  We can walk around the edge of town for both of those things so it's quiet, but you walk along the edge of one of the main car parks and it was rammed, with queues of cars waiting to get in and people with trolleys and arm fulls of bags.  Every shop was rammed.  All the big shops offer online delivery as standard and most of the small ones set up an order and delivery service that they've carried on running since March for people who can't get out, so there's no need for anyone to be shopping.  But so many people are.  It's crazy.  The NHS has been set to its highest alert level which only happens when they expect to be overwhelmed.  And people are worrying about shopping.  It's just crazy.

Yes.  Hard years to come. xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on November 23, 2020, 11:50:17 AM
Well the local numbers are finally starting to drop after many weeks of rising, which is good and I hope it stays that way.  We've only got another week of this lockdown, though, so quite what will happen after this I don't know - other than we'll still be staying in.  I will be very, very glad when this gets down to numbers no worse than (insert all the various illnesses that happen all the time anyway) and it just feels something like normal again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 23, 2020, 01:29:29 PM
Amen to all that, (((((Tupp))))).

At least there's encouraging news on the vaccine front. Nothing clear yet on distribution but if we can all just endure the test of these locked-in times (and mostly I think we can)....then one day we'll look back on this period as a benchmark, a threshold, and a Before and After time.

I have hope humanity will learn something from it all, and be changed in good as well as the desperate ways. But no predictions. All that will be visible and clear to future historians, I think, not to us in our lifetimes.

If there's anything that uplifts the notion of being present, Covid-19 would be it. I just revisited an old lay sermon I did on agnosticism, and was surprised to find the truth of it for me still holds. Openness. Not knowing. Trusting, despite. Focusing on the verb, which in my mind is an active practice "to DO faith[or trust]" and not to passively "HAVE ['faith' or whatever]. A lot got cleared up for me when I figured that out. Two extracts sum it up:

I have a new goal: to “do” faith [trust] rather than to “have” faith. Consider that “to place faith in” is an active choice rather than to passively “have”. It means to trust. I have come to believe at least this, which may be sounder than I know: I believe that I will do, or experience, faith, the more I choose to do, or experience, trust. The challenge for me, and perhaps for some of you too, is to trust with bravery and discernment, rather than surrender to mayhem.

As I wrote the conclusion, I remember thinking about how much time I'd spent hung up on the noun--what I should/could/could not have faith IN. The object of the sentence was really all that people argued about. Like: I believe/can't believe IN X, or y or z.

It hit me that the object of the sentence [diagramming sentences for two years] was not the point at all. (I had used an elaborate analogy about sleep to structure the talk. Agnosticism being similar to the membranous state between being awake and being allllmost asleep. Near hypnotic, come to think of it.)

....many years of being agnostic have taught me that you can’t get joy by willing it. You can’t “get” sleep at all, really. You have to allow it to get you. Maybe it’s the same as faith. As elusive and as comforting. Maybe trying to get it, as though it is an object you can grasp, is exactly what keeps it away. And maybe like the spirit of sleep, the spirit of faith has nothing to do with the objects of sentences, but only with their verbs.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on November 24, 2020, 05:26:39 AM
Hopsie, 'do' faith (trust) instead of having it has really rung a bell with me and I am going to ponder on that and let it sink in some more.  I can't say I'm feeling hopeful that humanity will learn from it but I certainly have, and I really want to keep what I've learnt in my life and allow it to shape my life from now on, rather than society's demands and my own unrealistic expectations.  And perhaps as I do that I will encounter more people who have learnt from it and my faith will increase.  But yes, it may well be not in our own life times.  I hope there is a way to peek in and see what's happening.

I am crossing my fingers re vaccines.  Not sure if son will be able to have one as they're not tested on anyone who isn't already fit and healthy so I will need to look into that more with regard to all his other problems (a friend with MS has already been advised by his doc that at this early stage him taking a vaccine wouldn't be wise).  But I will certainly be there with my sleeve rolled up and was joking to a friend yesterday that this chemical concoction might be the thing that sorts me out :)  If at least I know my chances of picking it up and bringing it home to him are lower that will give me some peace of mind.

New tiers will be in place when we come out of lockdown next week, with level three being the most restrictions and level one being the least.  Our area is likely to be level 1, which is good, I'm just hoping they're putting things in place to stop people from other areas visiting (and what will they do about unis?  Students from a high risk area home for Christmas, then going back to a low risk area, possibly infected?  Don't know).  But anyway, it's looking about as positive as it can just now so that's good.

Completely unrelated, but when I was feeding the birds this morning I looked up at the sky.  It was still dark but the street lamps were on, very cloudy sky and there were a flock of seagulls flying overhead and the light from the street lamps caught the undersides of them so they looked as if they were glowing.  They flew across a really dark, heavy cloud and I could just see these sort of glowing silhouettes gliding across the sky and it looked so beautiful.  I don't know why it popped into my head, possibly because I think the thing I've really learnt because of Covid is that I like things like that more than coffee shops and department stores.  When son was at college I wouldn't have been looking up, I'd have been racing through that job to get on with the next one because I'd have an endless list in my mind of what needed doing before we left that morning.  I'd have missed it.  That's what I don't want to get back to once all of this is over.  I want my normal to be different.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 24, 2020, 11:34:11 AM
Quote
I like things like that more than coffee shops and department stores

Oh me too, Tupp, me too! That's the mystical or poetic or even metaphysical streak right there. Should be on a blog, imo!

One of the neat things about you is how wide-ranging your mind is. Very granular and pragmatic about some things, and deeply soulful (I dunno what/if a soul is but you get the idea) about others. I like the way these qualities weave in and out of your writing.

You're a very keen observer, and that quality of attention is rare.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 24, 2020, 06:24:05 PM
Opinion by Lucy Jones [Washington Post]
November 24, 2020 at 12:33 p.m. EST

Lucy Jones, a seismologist at the California Institute of Technology, is the author of “The Big Ones: How Natural Disasters Have Shaped Us (and What We Can Do About Them)” and host of the podcast “Getting Through It.”

When the upcoming holidays inspire us to take more risks and let down our guard, we are not being resentful, stupid or selfish. We are being human. But covid-19 does not care that we perceive it to be less risky — it is more dangerous than ever.

As a seismologist who has spent much of my career helping policymakers understand seismic risk, I have seen many well-meaning and intelligent people struggle to comprehend the risk they face and weigh appropriate action. Knowing the science behind how people think about risk can help us understand why the right choices are so difficult — and why we should make them anyway.

Human beings understand reality and real-world risk using two parallel systems: an experiential, intuitive approach and an analytical, deliberative approach. The experiential system is an effective tool that has enabled human beings to survive our evolution. Long before risk analysis was a science, we relied on our gut to decide whether an animal was safe to approach or food was safe to eat.

As life became more complex, we developed an analytical system — a way to calculate and weigh risk factors rationally: assessing densities, probabilities and exposure the way engineers, scientists and economists do. But doing so takes time, work and conscious thought, so the experiential risk assessment is still a major component of our psyches and our first response to any danger.

The analytical system would tell us that the risk of catching the coronavirus is directly proportional to the number of contagious people in our community — and today, the daily case rate in the United States is skyrocketing. In many communities it is now more than 10 times what it was in April, meaning that any activity that we do now is also 10 times more dangerous than it was in April. But it doesn’t feel that way, and the psychology of how people perceive risk gives us two reasons for that.

First, we are always more afraid of things we do not understand. Early man could not protect himself from a danger he didn’t see or comprehend, so a perception of uncertainty increases our perception of risk.

In April, we did not know definitively how covid-19 was transmitted, how likely we were to die if we got it or whether it was going to be treatable. Because we know more now, the disease seems less frightening. Even though we now know that masks are the best protection, we may be less likely to wear one because we don’t feel as much at risk.

Second, our experiential system is tied to our emotions — whether something feels good or bad. We “rely on our gut” or think that something just doesn’t feel right. But these emotions mean that something we see as good, we also see as safe. Controlled studies have shown that even experts who have studied a particular risk will evaluate an exposure as safer if it has been tied to a significant emotional benefit.

Right now, after months of being in isolation, we are highly aware of the benefit of social interaction. Being with family for Thanksgiving has such a large upside that we are unable to appreciate the risk that doing so really poses. Seeing your parents now is much more likely to kill them than it would have been in April. But because it holds such benefit to both them and us, our gut just can’t agree.

Similarly, the benefits of not wearing masks — being able to see someone else’s face, the emotional benefit of that nonverbal connection with others — makes not wearing a mask seem less dangerous than it is. Notice how many public figures wear a mask but take it off to speak. The act of speaking makes your breath much more dangerous, but we discount the extra risk because of the benefits of a better social connection.

The third wave of the covid-19 pandemic is upon us just as the holidays beckon. We’re hearing a lot about pandemic fatigue, shutdown rebellions and pervasive resentment. In the same way we think that the obesity epidemic can be fixed by people just eating less, we’re blaming people for not having the character or willpower to just wear masks and self-isolate.

Instead of blaming the victims, we should try to understand why people behave the way they do. Well-meaning and intelligent people struggle to understand the hazards they face and weigh appropriate action.

But even as we recognize the difficulty, we need to use our rational minds to tell our gut to behave. Stay away from your family during the holidays so everyone will still be alive in the spring.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Bettyanne on November 28, 2020, 02:03:47 PM
Im in San francisco with my daughter Meghan......she drove me down along with her fiancé Jared after Bill died.....but now the covid is back doing its thing which I guess never stopped.  I am afraid to fly or take train back up to Seattle......and then ferry to Bainbridge Island, WA
I hope your all doing as well as can possible be at this time???
I don't know what to say.....never in my life of 77 years do I remember anything this bad......
Stay well and safe friends......keep a good distance away and wear masks.
Love,
Bettyanne
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 28, 2020, 08:27:36 PM
Will do, Bettyanne--and you stay safe too!

(We will want to hear in a couple years all about your HAPPY 80th Birthday, you know.)

San Francisco is so beautiful, and the Pacific NW just stunning. I hope you get back to Seattle/Bainbridge Island soon, and on the way will soak up some scenes from a car (or train) that fill your mind with peace. I'll never forget my first trip through Oregon about 7-8 years ago. Driving from Eugene over to and then up the coast was unforgettable. It was the first state I'd ever been in that I knew on sight I could love as much as my East Coast home. Those forests! Elk!

Sorry you have to wait through this weird pandemic winter, but this too shall pass.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on November 29, 2020, 09:45:39 PM
I'm tired. I've not got much more to say then that. One description a person used to describe Covid was Russian Roulette. It does feel that way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Bettyanne on November 30, 2020, 12:12:29 AM
Well HOPS I wish it would end soon......but then we gotta take a chance on a Vaccine??
My oldest daughter is a research Chemist......I should ask her what she thinks.....probably the same as the rest of us....waiting to see what happens next

I am here with Meghan and she has cystic fibrosis and she also is a therapist working from her apt and not going to her office because of the COVID......

It's amazing how you think things would be so different in 2020.......but we lucky to have the pharmaceutical companies working hard to get us all a cure????

Hops I can't wait to go home.......my personal problem with going home is no Bill my husband and I miss him so so much......I will cry now.......He saved my life as a kid at age 16 when I met him.....He was always so good to me.  We both had problems growing up with immature parents etc etc etc
It's so good to have this place to come and write anything we please and express ourselves.
My mother was so controlling growing up and I realized I couldn't say much and held most of it in because she was incharge......on the story goes on and on.......Im worn out by it now......
I wish I could have a magic wand to help us all on here.......but maybe on here is a little bit of magic that we all found this site.......I need to be grateful to you all......
Bettyanne...xoxo
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on November 30, 2020, 07:37:47 AM
Oh my dear... you'll just cry until you've cried it all out... and one day, you'll wake up and realize you're not crying anymore; and you won't want to shed another tear (but don't count on that). All that grief has been put aside while you lived your life as best you could, for a time when you could give it, it's due - when you could honor what you've lived through. You care about all you've felt, all these years... and the crying over it is the start of finally healing it.

It's like an abscess that needs to be drained of infection before it can heal.

(((((Bettyanne)))))
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 30, 2020, 12:21:03 PM
A one-note symphony would lose meaning.

Great symphonies have four movements. Themes, harmonies, drama, emotion, movement, and contemplation weave in and out of them. The big movements are generally:

First (fast, lively)
Second (slower, lyrical)
Third (dance-like)
Fourth (rousing, a review)

I think of the first as like a toddler crawling 90 mph as s/he learns her strength, developing faster than at any time in life.

The second like a child learning to read, find out what thinking is like, exploring its own mind and the world.

The third like a dance of maturity, a longer form, as children or work add complexity and structure.

The fourth like a review of themes that entered the symphony in the first movement. It can be intense and say the same thing over and over -- this is what it meant, here it is again, listen to so much meaning here, hear more deeply than ever

I think of grief as like a symphony, too. It has stages and different speeds, intensities and sounds.

Bettyanne, maybe this grief for Bill is part of your life symphony. I think your themes deserve whatever time you need to play them, and crying is one of the sounds an instrument can make as it contributes to the whole experience. And Bill is one of the most powerful themes throughout.

Your symphony could never be the beautiful, meaningful whole it is without the violin -- which both cries AND sings.

This was very clumsy but hope you follow my drift.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Bettyanne on November 30, 2020, 01:34:40 PM
OMG SkepiKal and Hops......that means so much to me.......thank you for your replies......so so kind of you....
I think Hops a musical couldn't have said it better......Like when we thought Bill was cured from the cancer but it was only a small part or large how ever to express it......No the cancer didn't go away but the Bill I loved still loved me right to the end......I was so so lucky to have had him as my friend, my best friend and of course my Husband. 
My family as a kid was so dysfunctional and uneducated to say in the least....screaming and yelling was a daily thing by my grandmother and mother.  They seem like they were never happy and if you could believe a poor boy who had cerebral palsy but of course my mother was never to blame for anything.......nothing nothing nothing...she is dead 8 years now........over 100 she lived.  I wonder if God let her live this long to see if anything would ever change.......but it didn't right until the end. I was so confused as a kid ......I was in Catholic schools for 12 years.......Honor they father and thy mother.......what they didn't say is even if they were mean to you and had no idea what the Hell they were doing......including grandmother??
But maybe it taught me a big painful lesson.......I didn't need to do that to my husband or my six kids....I know I wasn't the best but I sure tried to do better.  What else can we all do when we get dysfunction as a kid......we can duplicate it or try to do better......I know the answer now better then I was young.......I should have gotten away from them and never looked back. But that didn't happen.

So the Musical ended eventually but it sure was out of tune HOPS......the notes didn't sound so good but I made it......my husband was part of that loving me .......in a way I had never experienced as a kid, and I loved him back......we helped each other and always did.......that was the applause......Hops. and SkepiKal the tears came when Bill passed.....because I knew what true love was.....we had our problems too coming from these two families so messed up.....but Bill and I loved each other and always did......and we loved our six kids so much too.

I am starting to see how its not who are parents that count its who we each are.....how we see love even if we were hurt by our parents......WE don't have to duplicate them....we can start a new....Hops and SkepiKcal.....it will take some more crying but that's ok......God or our higher power what ever?? Being kind and loving is a priceless gift we can give each other.....

Thanks...Bettyanne


Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 30, 2020, 02:17:16 PM
Hi again Bettyanne--

Let's talk about this more on one of the threads you started.
I got so caught up in the music comparison I forgot I was in the
Coronavirus thread!

Talk to you again soon, on any Bettyanne thread you like.

Big hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Bettyanne on November 30, 2020, 03:33:26 PM
With this Virus which is safer to do?

Take a plane?
or
Take a train?

Thanks,
Bettyanne
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 30, 2020, 06:20:28 PM
I would think train, Bettyanne.
(Plus I love them way more anyway.)

Because you can get fresh air between cars, is my main reason.
They're not sealed up the way airplanes are.

No scientific proof here, just a hunch. (Now I want to go Google it.)

Okay, here's the answer!
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/safest-mode-of-transportation-during-covid-19 (https://www.cntraveler.com/story/safest-mode-of-transportation-during-covid-19)
Let me know if you can read that article.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on November 30, 2020, 09:31:26 PM
Hey ((((Posh)))) --

Really good to hear from you.

I agree that Russian Roulette is a very perceptive (chilling) term for it.

How are you doing? I hope you are feeling safe, generally. And enduring the isolation with mind intact. It FEELS endless, but it isn't. Really isn't. It's just a thing. A random thing everybody's got to suck up to and endure....

It's a real challenge BUT I think people will come out stronger on the other side.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 01, 2020, 02:15:59 AM
With this Virus which is safer to do?

Take a plane?
or
Take a train?

Thanks,
Bettyanne

I agree with Hops about the train BettyAnne, and I don't know if cost would make this impossible but I think First Class, if it's an option, is something you deserve to give yourself right now.  Some nice books or magazines to read, music to listen to?  If you're that way inclined.  But I'd look at ways of making it the nicest experience you possibly can.  Give yourself that mothering that was so lacking when you were little.  ((((((((BettyAnne)))))))))
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Bettyanne on December 02, 2020, 02:29:38 PM
Thanks Two a Penny,
The virus is really bad here in San Francisco......so I might take the train when it is better.
I am so upset with Bill dying and now accounts that I was on as a buyer are being closed.
OMG it makes me feel like a nothing......
I know that's not true.......but it sure feels that way.
Thanks so so much,
Bettyanne
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 05, 2020, 09:00:42 AM
Thanks Two a Penny,
The virus is really bad here in San Francisco......so I might take the train when it is better.
I am so upset with Bill dying and now accounts that I was on as a buyer are being closed.
OMG it makes me feel like a nothing......
I know that's not true.......but it sure feels that way.
Thanks so so much,
Bettyanne

It's such a lot for you to be coping with, BettyAnne, so many difficult things going on.  You're doing great.  It does look very bad over there.  It feels pretty bad over here at the moment.  Where we are isn't as bad as many other places but the numbers don't seem to be going down too much which worries me when we've just had another month of lockdown.  I'll be first in the queue for a vaccine; I'd rather take my chances with that than the virus and hopefully they can collect more data as they go along which will help them know how safe it is for certain groups (I think here at the moment they're saying no to kids and pregnant women; a friend of mine with MS has been told it's probably not a good idea for him and he lives a very solitary life anyway so he's happy to carry on shielding as he pretty much does that in his normal life).  There's so much going on and it's all so up in the air, it's very difficult.  I'll be happy when it's all over xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 05, 2020, 09:01:44 AM
I'm tired. I've not got much more to say then that. One description a person used to describe Covid was Russian Roulette. It does feel that way.

It does feel that way, P, although some people's chances are better than others.  We're just avoiding it full stop.  I don't like getting a cold, let alone anything else, I certainly don't want to be catching this as well xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 08, 2020, 01:02:22 PM
Well it's not looking too good here despite the fact we've just had another four week lockdown.  Overall numbers have dropped a bit but deaths are still going up and locally the death rate doubled over the last week.  It does worry me, even though we're taking as many precautions as we can.  They administered the first vaccines today; I think son is in one of the priority groups that they've put forward so far (I say think as the information is changing so fast that I can't keep up but the last thing I read said he'd be in one of the priority groups).  Although most people I've spoken to this week are saying they won't take a vaccine for it so I have been feeling anxious that even vaccinated we'll still have to be very careful as it won't be 100% effective so there would still be a chance of catching it off someone else.  I'd kind of hoped that by this time we'd be looking back on this as that awful event that happened in 2020 but it still feels as though we're very much in the middle of it all.  Crossing fingers that by this time next year we'll be looking back on it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 08, 2020, 03:56:43 PM
Yup, numbers are bad. And rising.
I expect we'll reach half a million deaths in the US because of...politics. Really ugly, very sad politics. For which the only answer is outstanding education everywhere.

But in the now, nothing for it but to keep on weaving, avoiding the dangers. Glad your son may soon be vaccinated. You too as his caregiver, I hope? What I just heard on a public radio (non-political) forum was that distribution is going to be long, complex, etc. Could be late summer or worse before adequte numbers of vaccinated people are reached. The toxic delusional administration focused on production, not distribution. And since the US also refused to purchase adequate quantities of additional doses, other countries got to Pfizer in time to order them.

The short-sighted....aaaaagh, why vent. I am nearly all vented out!

Got a cold the other day, a NORMAL cold. Feeling better already but there was that hour or two (before I researched again--sneezing and runny noses are rare for Covid-19) when I was asking myself...was it a surface touch? A delivery? I forgot to spray the gate latch? Was it socializing around the bonfire? That creepy crowd of screeching women (screeching spews more microdroplets) at that restaurant? Etc.

I'm with you, Tupp, on just avoiding the hell out of it. Taking as few risks as possible, just hunkering down to endure it. Ain't easy. (I wore two masks today on a necessary excursion, and gloves--never bother with those--because mechanics had to sit in and work on my car), took a spray and paper towels to wipe it all down before driving it away. Noticing, noticing, how often people think six feet (an arbitrary number my doc reminded me "isn't magic") means something sorta like awww, let's say three....ai yi yi.

But this too....will pass.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 09, 2020, 05:15:46 AM
It will pass, Hopsie, I'm just hoping I come out the other side a better person.  At the minute I'm feeling increasingly bitter and resentful.  I hope that goes away at some point.  It's funny but the people I've spoken to or know who are having to be careful because they are at risk (or someone they know is) seem to be coping with it more calmly and rationally than people who aren't at particular risk themselves.  Just my limited observations of my own circle.  I was chatting to an elderly lady at the bus stop and her responses were very similar to other elderly people I've spoken to.  I asked her how she's been with all of it and she said well you just have to get on with it.  We've missed seeing family, grandchildren, family events like Christmas get togethers have had to be put on hold but she said "I rather miss them this year and see them for years to come then get together now and not be here next Christmas".  It's perspective but I must admit I am struggling with mine at the minute.  I've purposely not asked people how they feel about the vaccine because I know I'm over-reacting to anyone who tells me they won't take it but people seem to want to tell me and it's out of their mouths before I can say "don't say anything, I don't want to know!"  It's finding the balance.  We'll both be taking ours as soon as it's available and I can't tell you how grateful I am to be living somewhere where it's even an option.  Can you imagine living in slums or shanty towns as so many people are, where this is just ripping through and they've no access to healthcare or long term support.  And might not be able to get a vaccine in any case, because of cost?  I can't imagine how it would feel to be living like that and then be aware that people are turning it down.  It's not my business, I know, and I know I've turned down things in the past that other people would have wanted but I think I'm just finding the overall situation a bit much.  We really are a global community now and I don't feel that we behave like that a lot of the time.

But yes - son is in one of the priority groups (group 6, I've now been informed).  They've rejigged the numbers regarding deaths amongst adults with learning disability and for someone of my son's age his chance of dying from it is thirty times higher than another lad of the same age without a learning disability.  That was a pretty sobering statistic as well.  I don't know about care givers; groups are calling for it but they haven't announced that yet.  They are dosing care workers in care homes but I'm waiting to hear about those in the community.  It may be that the GP has some leeway and can sort something out but it's a waiting game at the moment.  Waiting, waiting, waiting.  We'll get there in the end.

I hope your cold clears up!  Any sniffle makes you think now.  Interestingly I haven't had a cold and I normally get one in the run up to Christmas.  Best not count my chickens though, there's still a couple of weeks to go! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 12, 2020, 10:05:48 AM
Just grumbling.  Cases are up, hospital admissions are up, deaths have dropped slightly but are still high.  People seem to have become immune to 1500 - 3000 a week dying from it.  I know your numbers over there are a lot higher but even so, the lack of concern from many here bothers me.  Scientists are warning that we'll experience a third wave after people get together over Christmas.  GP surgeries have pulled out of the vaccination programme as they haven't got enough staff to do their normal work and vaccinate people for twelve hours a day.  My best friend's husband (who is at risk) has had to self isolate (their son is high risk) after a work colleague continued to come in to work FOR TWO DAYS AFTER HIS WIFE TOOK A POSITIVE TEST AND THEN FOR ANOTHER DAY WHEN HE DEVELOPED SYMPTOMS HIMSELF.  I mean seriously, how are people still not getting it?  The work colleagues wife is a carer so may have taken it into other people's homes as well.  The whole office is now off work until just before Christmas because they can't be sure he wasn't in contact with all of them at some point.  We've been in to town to our lovely local cinema (lots of precautions and it was us and three other people in there, many feet between us) and on walking back to the bus stop walked past a barber's shop containing two barbers and four blokes waiting for a hair cut, none of whom were wearing masks, with all the doors and windows shut.  Crazy.

But in other news, my favourite second hand furniture shop has opened again so I may well do an early morning dash in there with my measurements to hand to see if I can get any of the stuff I want from them instead of having to buy cheap flat pack.  That's good.  Meanwhile, staying home, staying away from people and trying to stay positive even though it's difficult when so many just seem to be taking no notice.  I think I notice it more because we're in a town, so there's just more people about in a smaller area.  The sun is shining, though :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on December 12, 2020, 01:32:00 PM
Did you find anything good at the 2bd hand shop, Tupp?

Sorry people aren't being careful.  Some have to work.  Some dont believe in the science.  You keep taking precautions and seeking your joy, ((Tupp.))

Lightet



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 12, 2020, 01:50:17 PM
Did you find anything good at the 2bd hand shop, Tupp?

Sorry people aren't being careful.  Some have to work.  Some dont believe in the science.  You keep taking precautions and seeking your joy, ((Tupp.))

Lightet

I didn't go in, Lighter, just peeked through the window.  They shut because of Covid, then had a flood so they've really been up against it and much of their furniture had to be chucked because the flood water ruined it.  So there's more space in there than usual (that will change, I imagine).  I'll go one morning in the week, first thing when it's still quiet and no-one else is around.  I saw a beautiful chest of drawers, far too big for my place but chest high, curved and crying out for some wax and a good buff.  I could do with two wardrobes with drawers underneath, a new desk for son's room, a small bookcase that can double as a bedside table in my room and a nicer TV unit/storage thing for the sitting room, as well as a new sofa.  Almost everything, really lol.  But they sell nice pieces in there for good prices so I can get better stuff for less than I'd pay for new cheap stuff, if you know what I mean.  They also have lots of nice extras like cushion covers and lampshades; they even had some weird kid's toy thing that son had wanted for ages and that we couldn't find anywhere as they stopped making them a long time ago.  There was one in the window one time when we walked past; he was delighted.

Yep - we are just avoiding people in general.  I think I struggle when I see the places where everyone has worked so hard to make it safe and keep it safe - and then two doors along no precautions at all.  But we'll keep doing our thing and it will all be good in the end xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 12, 2020, 02:13:14 PM
I think you're so wise to be considering used furniture, Tupp.
I was in that industry.

Old furniture offers 90% of the time much better materials and construction than new. I have an early-60s sofa that's solid as a tank. Simple slipcovers or reupholstery if affordable is all these need in most cases.

Where I used to work I did a great deal of research on materials. Most new furniture is toxic and adds to the endocrine-disrupting chemical load in the body, which has been implicated by researchers and epidemiologist in developmental brain disorders, cancer, infertility and even obesity. They call them "obesogens."

There's an absolute forest of poorly-regulated toxic chemicals in new household furnishings, flooring, carpets, foam stuffing in cushions and pillows, bedding, laminates, anything with particleboard or synthetic lumber, vinyl, drapes, etc. Flame retardants, nanoparticle fabric treatments, pesticides, toxic stains and dyes and on and on. The off-gassing VOCs (volatile organic compounds) from plastics and vinyls doesn't even end when the "new" smell is gone, but continues for years undetecably.

I MUCH prefer well-built old furniture! It's not only less expensive but avoids another discarded thing going off to a dump or landfill -- keeps it out of the waste stream.

Haven't resuscitated that rant for a while now! Hope you enjoy your shopping and find pieces you can work with and enjoy for years to come.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 13, 2020, 01:11:35 AM
Zoiks!  I didn't know all that, Hospie - I've always gone for second hand just because I can get nicer pieces for less money and it tends to be better made, means another tree hasn't been cut down and so on.  I like the history with old pieces as well, not that I usually know what it is but I can make something up in my head :)  But all that chemical, health impacting stuff - yuk!  I had no idea.  Is it all just to do with the processes they put them through and chemicals they treat them with?  I'll probably have to get son's bed new as it's a particular kind of storage that I'm after and the chances of one of those being in the shop second hand are slim (I'll have a look, though!).  But everything else I'll try to get through them.  They also take furniture; son's current bed still has life in it, it's just too small for him now so they can have that and our sofa is very old and battered but might do someone a turn (we got it free from someone who was moving and that was about seven years ago now so it's on it's not as good as it once was but it can still do the job).  I might be able to sort it so that they take the old stuff when they pick up the new which would be handy.  Nice to have a little project to think about.  I love the sound of your 60s sofa!  It's great when you get a good piece that just lasts forever xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 13, 2020, 08:41:32 AM
Quote
Is it all just to do with the processes they put them through and chemicals they treat them with?

Exactly that. Indoor air pollution is often worse, due to buildup and inadequate ventilation, than outdoor air pollution. Candles, cleaning products, furniture, carpets, cleaning products, personal care products and cosmetics, on and on.....
https://www.blf.org.uk/support-for-you/indoor-air-pollution/causes (https://www.blf.org.uk/support-for-you/indoor-air-pollution/causes)

https://www.ewg.org/research/dirty-dozen-list-endocrine-disruptors?gclid=CjwKCAiAlNf-BRB_EiwA2osbxeh-mLEpGPB_ds-T5Ne8R65qorKuafxHQ8q89w3iL_m6Rh55NNFcHBoCjsgQAvD_BwE (https://www.ewg.org/research/dirty-dozen-list-endocrine-disruptors?gclid=CjwKCAiAlNf-BRB_EiwA2osbxeh-mLEpGPB_ds-T5Ne8R65qorKuafxHQ8q89w3iL_m6Rh55NNFcHBoCjsgQAvD_BwE)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677823/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677823/)
Note that while PBDE's have been banned as flame retardants, it took industry no time to come up with a slightly tweaked new formula (Firemaster) that researchers expect is just as toxic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677823/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677823/)

Bottom line is that the chemical industry wordwide is valued at over $80 billion annually (imagine the lobbying budgets). As recently as ten years ago (unlikely to have improved since), it was reported that the US tests only about 10% of new chemicals for human and environmental safety, and the industry makes new forumulas all the time. Basically, we're human sponges and if a kind of pesticide or plastic or finish makes a product shinier or cheaper or look more appealing to the consumer eye, manufacturers aren't staying up at night worrying about the long-term chemical load in our bodies.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on December 13, 2020, 09:20:11 AM
Our "bubble" here has tightened. (Not that I ever had or am starting a massive social life.) Hol's very freaked out about the possibility of getting the virus; not knowing and then giving it to someone else - any of her friends or me. So, she's not inviting anyone out to visit -- and when she does, has her list of things to ask them, prior. It's usually one or two people at a time now.

I think one of my issues last week was how much running around I had to do between Kitty & car inspections. With all the covid protocols and especially masks - I'm reading/picking up more negativity from people than ever. It's DEPRESSING to me, especially in this season... that people even when interacting are all so closed off and unfriendly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 13, 2020, 01:11:42 PM
Our "bubble" here has tightened. (Not that I ever had or am starting a massive social life.) Hol's very freaked out about the possibility of getting the virus; not knowing and then giving it to someone else - any of her friends or me. So, she's not inviting anyone out to visit -- and when she does, has her list of things to ask them, prior. It's usually one or two people at a time now.

I think one of my issues last week was how much running around I had to do between Kitty & car inspections. With all the covid protocols and especially masks - I'm reading/picking up more negativity from people than ever. It's DEPRESSING to me, especially in this season... that people even when interacting are all so closed off and unfriendly.

That's a shame, Skep (about people being more unfriendly).  I guess it's been going on for so long now and it's so grim that people are fatigued with it all.  In our local area I have to say I've seen the opposite - people are going out of their way to say hi and chat a bit.  I think because the masks cover facial expressions (I still find myself smiling at people even though they can't see it and then I realise I need to put it into words as well lol).  But I know here everyone is fed up with it and I imagine it's similar over there.  It's caused huge problems in pretty much everyone's situation and it's just gone on for so blooming long - with no real end in sight yet.  Bleurgh.  I'll be glad when it's over.

Hopsie, thank you for all of those links, I'll have a read later.  I suspect they're going to make me glad I don't usually buy new furniture!  Lol.  I really wish that every government in every country would bring in legislation so that anything that's produced has to be sustainable, no risk to health (known risk, anyway) and that everyone involved has to be paid properly.  I know it would make things more expensive but how much of what we all buy is really necessary?  And what could we get second hand instead, or just make do with something else?  We do a pretty good job of rarely buying new.  Even tech I usually pick up second hand as there are loads of places that refurbish phones, laptops etc and we've always done alright with it.  It's difficult picking your way through all the information; I try to buy as ethically as I can but you have to put in a lot of time and leg work checking things out and a lot of people just don't have the time (or don't realise it's even an issue).  Wishful thinking, I know.

In slightly better news, although numbers in the county overall still haven't dropped much, in our local area there's been a pretty big drop and we've very few cases now.  That makes me feel better as we only tend to go from here to the library or cinema.  The town we are going to visit tomorrow (to look at the houses) is also pretty low now so I feel a bit easier about it.  Funnily enough I told son we were going to look at places in case they're nice enough to move into and he didn't protest - he normally grumbles if I mention moving but the idea didn't seem to phase him.  Or maybe he wasn't listening properly lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 13, 2020, 01:58:53 PM
Quote
I really wish that every government in every country would bring in legislation so that anything that's produced has to be sustainable, no risk to health (known risk, anyway) and that everyone involved has to be paid properly.  I know it would make things more expensive but how much of what we all buy is really necessary?  And what could we get second hand instead, or just make do with something else?

Totally in sync with that, Tupp, every word.

I think if this view doesn't take a huge bite out of Western consumerism/materialism/statusism and FAST, historians will look back and say, if only they'd accepted what was necessary to save it all. Then they'll put their futuristic gas masks back on and go back to work in their bunkers, pondering our foolishness.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 14, 2020, 09:17:55 AM
Even though I started that Hax thread, I figure these two belong here. I just love her directness with language, maybe that's why I'm a fan! Hugs--Hops
--------
Dear Carolyn: I've been sheltering in place for nine months now, venturing out only to the grocery store, pharmacy and a monthly haircut (in masks always). With the spike in infections and deaths, I decided not to join family from four households for Thanksgiving. I got a lot of negative feedback about my decision and feel really bad about it.

I'm scheduled to host Christmas this year — and family members are telling me they won't follow my desires for separation and the like. Am thinking I ought to pull out from hosting.

Your thoughts about all of this?

— Over 65, Overweight, With Underlying Condition

Over 65, Overweight, With Underlying Condition: Yes, cancel Christmas.

I am sorry for that.

I am sorry for your past nine months of restricted living.

I am sorry your people are acting like toads when all they have to do to show their love is assure you they’d rather have you around for a long and fulfilling life than get their way for one stupid day.

I am sorry I called Christmas stupid.

But, wow.

I hope the toadishness is really that they all miss you and are upset they won’t spend time with you and are just saying this badly.

Keep exercising your freedom in service of community health and against recklessness. Heroism wears a mask and follows guidelines and cancels group Christmas and stands up to the misinformed. Thank you for being brave.

Dear Carolyn: What is the appropriate response to guilt-tripping from an elderly mother who frequently says she'll "probably die from something else" before covid is over and it is safe to visit again?

— Anonymous

Anonymous: “I’m doing my part to make sure that doesn’t happen, by keeping my distance now. For us and for all the people like us.

“I do hear you, Mom. This is awful.”

Then in lieu of re-litigating this with her, simply commit to, recommit to, double-down on all of the other means you have available to you to remain connected. All of which are clearly poor substitutes for a hug, but they’re something.

Few can be perfect here, but most can improve . . . something. And the more people behave better, the sooner we all see one another. Everyone. It’s on us to remain as compassionate as we are resolute.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 15, 2020, 05:29:14 AM
I have to admit, Hopsie, this is the stuff I don't understand - I get someone who is vulnerable to the virus getting annoyed with people who don't take precautions.  I can't get my head around fit and healthy people getting angry with someone who's trying to avoid dying from it?  Particularly as things like Thanksgiving and Christmas are supposed to be about celebrating life and sharing with people.  It kind of boggles my mind that people get angry with folk who are trying to stay alive (and who've made big sacrifices like that lady has - I expect she wants nothing more than to spend a day with the people she cares about but the risk for her would be great).  I just don't understand how that works in someone's mind.  I hope she's able to stand firm and keep herself safe.  It makes me glad I fell out with all of my relatives years ago so there's no expectation to see anyone xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2020, 08:15:01 AM
Boggles my mind too, Tupp.

Here, it's basically because not half the population but half of the half who bothered to vote have actually fallen into a state of brainwashed, anti-science, anti-masking cult-like behavior, under the spell of a master-manipulator socio(if not psycho-)path malignant narcissist who's brought out the depravity of desperately alienated people who feel disenfranchised (for some very justified reasons, but this ain't the solution). It's pretty horrifying and has everything to do, imo, with lousy education, economic deserts, and American myths of rugged individualism and exceptionalism. Add to that legit layers of mistrust of government (from Viet Nam to Ruby Ridge), general disenchantment. And a massive, massive, misinformation deluge from "social" media plus internet and cable TV stupidity plus cynicism and pure greed, and abandonment of communal ideals.

So their politicians have utterly sold their souls, and the core base believers are ready to kill and die (kill other Americans including family, die themselves) and are no longer amenable to education and critical thinking. The TV/internet koolaid is all the way through their brains and it's f-ing tragic. Some of them have convinced themselves it's religious freedom, too, which is so off the mark Jesus would weep.

And also killing the helpless around them. One expert said, everybody should simply assume that they themselves and everyone else are asymptomatic carriers until adequate vaccination has been accomplished (late summer probably, unless mistrust of science and government = enough mask refusal to extend the pandemic longer). It's that simple. Masking consistently, serious 20-second handwashing/sanitizing after every "unsafe touch" and remaining 6' (better 8 or 10) feet from people not in one's household or confirmed-safe "pod."

Three things. Not easy things, but very simple things. That take effort, trust in reality/science, and common sense. Reality is our friend.

It's just insane, but America has been going through some insanity. Horribly sad. (The U.K. too, I think Brexit has represented a similar catharsis of resentment.)

It's going to be a long grind, and I wonder if another Great Depression is next. But living day to day determined to feel wonder and happiness in some form, is still available.... I guess Keep Calm and Carry On is going to be back in vogue.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 15, 2020, 09:25:17 AM
There is happiness to be found, Hopsie, and I am trying really hard to focus on that and not too much on the other stuff just now.  Easier said than done, some days.  One of our TV celebrity type people was saying back in the summer that restrictions should be lifted, as no-one he knew had the virus.  It's just been announced that his brother died from it yesterday.  I do see parallels between this and the 'invisible disability' issues that many people face.  You don't look sick, so you shouldn't have disability benefits/a parking badge/allocated seating or whatever.  I think there are similarities - people feel fine (or feel unwell but no more than a cold) so they find it hard to understand the risk.  I don't think we're conditioned to think of others the way we ought to?  I guess that's a global thing, not just here.  But people seem happy for at risk people to stay home alone indefinitely so they don't have to change their habits.  I can understand it.  We're not used to being asked to put other people's needs before our own (apart from the codependent among us, maybe?  Lol).  But it's gone on a looooong time now.  Everyone's patience is wearing thin, whichever side of the fence they sit on.  I've just had a nice nap.  That's my high spot for the day just now :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2020, 09:48:23 AM
Happy naps!

I'm not allowing myself to be distraught about it, or even our shockingly disorienting news -- democracy here just came damn close to collapsing and new forces that will challenge it again have risen to a genuinely threatening degree. So it's possible America will never be the same, will hold on halfway, or will really be altered in indelible, irreparable ways. No more shining city on a hill.

BUT. I do not want to keep mulling over people who aren't responsible about the pandemic OR politicians who've sold out or are compromised. Out of our control.

The news about both subjects will continue every day. But I don't have to get sucked in or even if I do keep up (always do) -- I don't want it to seep through my day. I think I've said really all I've got to say about the pandemic and its deniers.

Really, won't be anything new that isn't already a headline about case counts and resistance.

It's sunny here, had a great evening, I'm warm and safe, Pooch is napping in the sun stream, and I'm both lucky and verrrrry grateful.

Gotta get cracking.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on December 16, 2020, 08:20:25 AM
And.... keeping myself happy and able to share that is why I'm baking enough for my whole county Tupp. It keeps me home a lot too.

The stuff Hops was talking about above - I just want no part of - despite holding very strong opinions on it, myself. It's not a fit topic for polite conversation. And since none of US can do anything helpful about it, I'm just keeping my mouth shut and a sharp weather eye for more crap rolling downhill. Yeah, I know it's everywhere. I'm taking my reality and my way of life - where simple kindness makes so many things easier - and locking the gate and digging a moat. Till I feel I'm ready to deal with the other stuff again.

First flakes of the snow storm are here; Hol woke me up asking if I had Dr. Strangelove in the library. LOL. Pretty sure I do. I don't think S has seen it. Coffee pot (Bunn) died yesterday - again. I just got a french press and except for quantity, it does make good coffee - sans electricity. Thinking about not replacing the electric coffee maker... it would open up my counter space.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 16, 2020, 01:13:44 PM
I'm with you, Amber. And I'm a little shocked I went on such a political rampage here. It was like a lot of stuff bubbled out that I'd been keeping a tight lid on, but it also breaks the "contract" here, which I know is important. I'm sorry for that. Won't do it again. (Or if I do, yell.)

I'd also much rather respect our sacred support space and keep our moats full and flowing.

Alligators! Or floating cookies! Whatever it takes.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on December 16, 2020, 04:50:05 PM
It's perfectly OK with me Hops; I am famous for unexpectedly erupting over the same topic.

We is humanz and we can't control ourselves all the time - or life would be one long case of terminal ennui.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 16, 2020, 11:32:57 PM
Some claim that there are many moderate Republicans and many moderate Democrats, looking at news etc one would think America is a tempest of extremism.

I will say I'm not impressed with the Republican leaders who have made light of mask wearing and decided to focus on the idea of mask wearing as a concept of freedom or lack of freedom, their rebellion against authority. It does start to appear like rebellion against social responsibility, rebellion against common sense, rebellion against human kindness even. With so many people dying I find it disgusting really. Recently I was watching an interview of Kat Cammack and she talked about how taking her mask off was a little "act of rebellion" she laughed about it, in this moment she sounded like a kid. She also didn't acknowledge any sickness or death, it was left out of her conversation entirely. In the end it's like both political parties have too strong of a personality cult indoctrination where all Republicans are chanting the same chant and likewise all the Democrats are chanting the same chant too. 

I shouldn't be saying anything at all about politics here because maybe this isn't the best forum for it. Politics causes so much strife. I'm not sure how many people are anti-maskers but I would like to think it is not most people.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 17, 2020, 04:41:19 AM
I think what's been interesting here is that this is the second big 'thing' we've had that hasn't had a clear political slant.  People from both main parties were for and against Brexit, and people from both parties have been for and against restrictions (too many or not enough, depending on your point of view).

I've found it interesting that there have been a couple of media personality types who I usually don't even listen to as I find much of what they say irritating who have, for me, done an outstanding job throughout the Covid thing.  Similarly I've got several very left wing, hippy, off grid type friends who think people like myself and son should just stay inside for a few years so that they don't have to wear masks, whereas other friends (who I avoid talking politics with as we have polar opposite views on everything) who have been staunch defenders of the elderly and disabled and think we should have locked down and stayed locked down until it all went away.  I think maybe the old style way of doing politics has just had its day; perhaps as we are now a global community with so many different races, religions, cultures etc living alongside one another maybe having sides just doesn't work anymore?  Perhaps we need something more like a really well run admin office that just keeps all the wheels turning and big decisions about major policies get put to the vote each time?  I'd guess in this day of technology we don't really need polling booths and voting boxes in the same way now?  Who knows?  It certainly feels more divided than it ever has in my lifetime, perhaps social media is a big role in that?  For now, I am making like Skep - keeping busy at home, being kind to myself and others where possible and just hunkering down (although without the snow or a moat, although I've always fancied a moat!  They just look like fun :) ).  This too shall pass and all that xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on December 17, 2020, 08:54:31 AM
What I find terribly SAD and dysfunctional...

is that all of us have said so far we can't talk about politics - because of the intensity of the duality. The "Us and Them" mentality. There are a lot more perspectives/perceptions than duality.

We're (as a society) making ourselves "voiceless" to avoid being in conflict and working to find a way THROUGH conflict to unity. I see many people making similar choices right now; the sense of risk and danger in choosing, is very high.Or so they've expressed.

The way I came to that observation was by writing/self-censoring my own rant and expression of disappointment and my determination not to contribute to the cacaphony. And then deleting it.

I'm not at all sure my choice is going to be effective or safe. My simply "dropping out" of society (again). Refusing to participate in what I feel is an absurd, juvenile and ultimately abusive political "game" that we are all being persuaded is in our interest to "play". There isn't anything to "win" playing that game - for me.

My choice, isn't for everyone. Everyone (in my reality) is capable of and free to make their own choices. Those are my rules around the farm - yes, there are consequences of those choices; even for me. The rest of the world is going in another direction where it's acceptable for gov'ts to force people into the gov's "preferred" choice.

This lifelong non-conformist, says sorry - I don't want to play that game.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 18, 2020, 05:02:09 AM
Yes I see what you mean, Skep.  Do you think it's the internet that's contributed to a lot of this?  I just find there's so much information now - online, on TV, radio, newspapers, magazines etc - that it's overwhelming and I feel I've had to make my world a lot smaller in order to cope.  I do see increasingly a difference between the online world and the 'real world'.  People in 'real life' seem to me to be more middle of the road?  open? to other people's points of view.  Less argumentative/certain they're right/do it my way or not at all.  The internet seems to have made things very black and white - maybe because of a lack of context or personal knowledge of people?  Too many voices about too many different things, maybe?  It's a shame.  I think you said in one of your other posts that the potential for great things was/is there with the internet but it's been misused or mishandled and is becoming a bit of a beast of burden instead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 18, 2020, 08:13:14 PM
Skep,

You have a good point. I will have to think about this later when I have more time. I'm not sure what the best route is.

I think most people could agree that there is almost way too much information available because people can self-publish on the internet. So YouTube stars, influencers, blogs and so forth are places where opinions can be voiced and that is their right but also some of these people have more popularity than experts, authors, researchers, professionals. IDK

Sometimes I feel like if i try to stop myself from having an opinion I give myself a little more peace? It seems like we are all required to opinionate about everything and having an opinion might be a stand in for real involvement and action or work. Having an opinion allows a person to feel like they are involved in something or have some kind of power of being included with a larger group but really maybe opinionating is a cop out.

I could seriously discipline myself to have no opinion, go and volunteer cleaning up hiking trails or something (if I could get there) and that miniscule effort might be worth more than an opinion. Is there a psychological effect of having an opinion that makes a person feel as though they are involved and actually doing something.. Is not having an opinion the same as non-engagement. I don't know.

At the start of this year not having an opinion was actually my new years resolution but it didn't work out, I forgot about it, it went out the window with my school papers etc. There is almost an idea that non-having an opinion is the same as being dumb, and having an opinion is "smart"  Having opinions is fine there is nothing wrong with it exactly but I wonder if there is more emphasis on people having and expressing their opinions because of the internet connectivity. IDK

In any setting I also think opinions are regulated and expected. In my school I think a liberal opinion is expected in almost a brain washing sort of way. You know what, it's pretty rare that there are every exercises in listening... lots of exercises in thinking, researching and expressing but it's practically only like couples therapy where any person is told their job is to listen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 18, 2020, 08:22:31 PM
Here in Washington State where I am at the vaccine shipment from the CDC was reduced by 40% with no explanation from the CDC. Our governor broadcasted his frustration and dismay publicly. He called it an unexplained "glitch" so I am not at all surprised by this, it was inevitable really to have many vaccine issues. Thing is this is our government, the military and national guard was at times even said to be involved in distribution etc.

So WTF.  With such an anticipated high level procedure, how could there have been a glitch. I wonder if the Republican run CDC is still holding some grudge against the liberalness of my state. Earlier on in the pandemic there were some choice words between Trump and our Governor. Anyhow who knows.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 18, 2020, 10:01:50 PM
Quote
Is there a psychological effect of having an opinion that makes a person feel as though they are involved and actually doing something.

I think you're right about that, Pseudo.

Armchair warriors. (I'm one, blush.)

hug
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 19, 2020, 12:57:13 AM
Hops,

Me too I mean I am just as guilty/hypocritical of being an armchair warrior. I'm just saying maybe there is a mass culture of armchair warriors because of the internet? Maybe even laziness. Ya know, path of least resistance.

I mean I also agree with Amber people should be able to discuss stuff too. I guess some of it might come down to the depth of discussion. Listening to authors discuss their books even political books is interesting because some of them go so deep into a topic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 19, 2020, 12:12:19 PM
Nodding, Posh.  I do remember talking to someone about sharing things on Facebook - does it really help or are you better off doing it the old fashioned way, standing in the street talking to people and handing out leaflets?  I used to do quite a lot of campaigning, protests and so on - much less so in recent years as taking son along became problematic.  Deeds not words and all that. I do feel it's better to go and knock on your elderly neighbours door to check they're okay rather than talking about how awful it is that the elderly are all alone on social media.  I think it's quite addictive, though?  I find myself scrolling through things even though I've massively reduced my online time and shut my social media down.  I still find myself scrolling through comments at the end of news articles and so on.  What I have noticed is that almost everyone I know does everything via social media now - so I miss out on a lot of what's going on.  Once upon a time we'd have all phoned each other to pass on the information - now it gets posted online and if you don't read it you miss out.  So I miss out on quite a lot.

In other news, restrictions have been increased here.  There is a new strain, apparently, more infectious than the existing one.  Possibly as much as 70% more infectious.  Our particular area hasn't been restricted further, they've focused on the areas that are worse, but plans for Christmas have been reduced and people told not to travel etc.  Son and I watched the briefing together and he impresses me so much - when you consider he has severe learning disabilities, plus all his other health problems and he sat through it, I explained what was happening and whether or not it changes anything for us personally (it doesn't at the moment) and he just takes it all in, asks a couple of questions, checks which places are being locked down on the map to make sure it's not our area and then tells the cat she's still okay to go out :)  Lol.  We're having fish and chips for tea; I'm still dieting but I feel like we need a bit of cheering up for the evening :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 19, 2020, 03:16:06 PM
I looooove your son.
What an amazing companion.

Kin I borry him?

:0
hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on December 19, 2020, 04:26:48 PM
Mouse - I think almost anything can be discussed, but the "rules" have to be:

1. everyone is entitled to their opinion, perspective and perception

2. because of #1, it's a statistical given no two people are going to agree on everything so....

3. no one is going to be able to persuade, influence or even disapprove another into agreeing with them... which therefore eliminates the competition for being "right" or else, "wrong"

Sadly, it's the rules that have been forgotten or even discredited.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 19, 2020, 05:31:19 PM
I agree with all-a y'all.

And I think social media/internet are a huge part of it.

Meanwhile, when I ponder all the points all have raised,
I just think it's about civility and goodwill.

If we shore those up, lively debate can be had without the poison.
Right now, the whole culture is fighting off the poison, and scared.

I think that can change though. We need to recover trust in each other
as societies. One little encounter at a time.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 20, 2020, 12:57:28 AM
Two,

That's cute about your son & cat checking on Covid maps.

I did hear about the strain over there but not a lot of details on it. I guess there was also a Spanish strain that popped up a while back. Sigh.

I'm not really sure what is happening around the world with Covid, I read tidbits. Apparently in California specifically Los Angeles the Hospitals have come to maximum capacity, it's what politicians have been so afraid of and trying to avoid.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-19/los-angeles-county-coronavirus-hospitalization-surge-rationing

Also I do know what you mean, the idea that one is missing out because EVERYBODY is on social media.

Today my power went out for a bit because of a windstorm and so I was sitting with a camp lantern and I texted a friend, we ended up having a phone call and catching up finally. I'm really glad that happened because I've been meaning to call her but just not doing it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 20, 2020, 01:14:06 AM
Two,

That's cute about your son & cat checking on Covid maps.

I did hear about the strain over there but not a lot of details on it. I guess there was also a Spanish strain that popped up a while back. Sigh.

Also I do know what you mean, the idea that one is missing out because EVERYBODY is on social media.

Today my power went out for a bit because of a windstorm and so I was sitting with a camp lantern and I texted a friend, we ended up having a phone call and catching up finally. I'm really glad that happened because I've been meaning to call her but just not doing it.

It is cute, Posh, the cat always looks as though she's listening and very onboard as well :)  Lol.  Yes, I think we've lost a lot because of social media.  I feel the lack of phone calls very acutely, even though it's been happening for years now.  But I don't like telling all sorts of people what I'm doing and having people I don't know very well read it (as happens on social media) and again, it's about context as well.  I speak to different people about different things in different ways - I can't write something on social media that fits the way I talk to everyone, you know?  I'm glad you got to catch up with your friend.  It's good to talk!  It's worth making the effort, I think.

Yes, apparently a new, more infectious strain, which apparently they've known about since September but decided to just watch it spread for two months.  It has baffled me that the infection rate didn't seem to be dropping despite just having had another lockdown and people taking precautions.  I guess if it's more infectious that would be why.  Oh for a Government that had taken it seriously at the beginning, put a proper, science based plan in place and proceeded with caution.  New Zealand suffered 25 deaths and were pretty much back to normal in a few months.  I know they're much smaller and more remote than we are but even so - we could have done this a lot better.  I just woke up feeling terribly sad for all those people who are really battling with this at the moment, whatever the reason for it is.  So much worry and heartache.  It's a sad time.

Hopsie, he'd really make you laugh.  He's so funny, but also so sensible as well.  It really brings it home to me; people often assume people with learning disabilities are a bit daft but he really isn't, he just needs to take in the language in a different way and have a bit of time to work out what's going on and compare it to something else he already understands, so it makes sense.  He was a bit concerned because the headlines everywhere are 'Christmas is Cancelled' but I told him he'll still get his presents and he's instantly fine again lol.  Speaking of which, I need to finish wrapping because I can only do it when he's asleep which isn't all that much when I'm awake!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 20, 2020, 01:27:14 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/19/the-uk-has-identified-a-new-covid-19-strain-that-spreads-more-quickly-heres-what-they-know.html

About that new strain. 

Agreed, it's a sadness that either hits from the front or the sides and if not that way slowly from the back via dreams.

;) Have fun wrapping.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 20, 2020, 08:21:33 AM
Ah, I couldn't read all of the article because of my ad blocker but yes, from what I read, it seems they know a bit but not too much.  It's weird - I'm sitting here looking out of the window at the moment and everything's just normal.  It's sunny and raining at the same time, the birds are flitting about, someone walks past the house every now and again.  Normal Sunday.  But if I switch on the news or look at social media (which I'm purposely not doing!) I know it will show me that the world's turned upside down.  It's just such an odd situation to be in xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 21, 2020, 07:28:44 AM
It's strange, I'm fearful.

I guess people have to try to create and find normalcy. I'm not sure if I should watch the news or not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 21, 2020, 09:06:17 AM
I've got to the point now where I feel the news is just making me more anxious rather than giving me more information, Posh.  We're taking all precautions we can (mostly by staying in!) and there's nothing else we can do now until we get our vaccines.  I realised knowing how bad it all is is just making me feel worse, but there's nothing else I can do about it so I've decided I'm better off not knowing.  I was talking to a lady at the bus stop this morning who said the same thing - they've had a pre Christmas family gathering over the weekend as her daughters are both nurses and working over Christmas so they got together with the adult kids in the garden and the parents sat in on the porch.  They all had their own food and drink and they've made the best of it but she said she's stopped watching the news, it's just too much doom and gloom (and it is a doom and gloom situation but there's good stuff as well).  So - we went out today to celebrate the solstice.  We caught the bus to the beach, had a walk, had a packed lunch and hot chocolate and then caught the bus home.  The bus drivers are all dressed up and in the Christmas mood, everyone's sticking to the distance advice, the beach is beautiful even when the weather's not great (and there's a big house on the sea front that used to be a nursing home; it would make an amazing communal living space for me and son and a few other families in similar situations - every time I see it I hope I win the lottery so I can buy it :) ) and it was nice.  I'm focusing on all of that and pretending nothing else is going on because I can't cope any other way just now lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 21, 2020, 09:59:45 PM
Some days I start to fear complacency. News of a new strain sorta counter acts the complacency.

But yeah, the news does give me more anxiety.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 22, 2020, 01:30:33 AM
Some days I start to fear complacency. News of a new strain sorta counter acts the complacency.

But yeah, the news does give me more anxiety.

I know what you mean, Posh.  It's easy to forget to be careful if you kind of forget what's going on.  I notice the difference in myself, though - yesterday I didn't read any news at all, no social media, nothing on TV, no radio - and I did feel calmer and happier.  I did talk about it with a friend of mine who's a teacher and is worried about going back to school in the New Year (understandably), particularly as this new strain has come about.  But she was also relieved that they hadn't gone away for Christmas as they usually do, because apparently France and some others have put a travel ban in place on Brits (very sensibly, in my opinion) so they'd have been stuck.  I find the situation so odd because it's bad for people in different ways, and for so many people as well.  But I'm staying in my bubble, with son, the cat and some mince pies :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 22, 2020, 03:58:37 PM
That's good Two and the Mince Pies sound so very British. There is such a big push to get the economy back to normal, they need the kids to be in school so adults can do their thing. I feel bad for the teachers and it comes off as a bit of a sacrifice.

This situation is so problematic though, it's not going to just clear up all of a sudden in the spring with vaccines and so forth. I'm in a certain amount of denial because it's hard to plan for that.

News here is a constant flow on contradictory messaging. Officials telling people to stay home and it's followed by the Mega Store Walmart advertising that they have all their in-store check out lanes staffed for Christmas shopping. The Walmart store shows a Teddy Bear riding around on a kid's plastic bike and the store is totally empty as if "don't worry nobody is even here and you can buy toys"

Then there are some commercials put out by businesses/airlines meant to make flying seem both safe and fun. In my opinion it's insensitive and obviously misleading. It bothers me because it almost makes a joke out of the situation and relies on a catchy old earworm song. Who knows who actually owns the rights to the song. It would be ironic if the musicians ended up dead from the virus. 

I hope someone does a parody of that commercial that goes:

 "We can die if we want to"
"We might leave our friends behind"

"Say, we can act if we want to
If we don't, nobody will
And you can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9w_paUjzKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi7mBzdDHyY
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 24, 2020, 03:27:06 AM
The UK virus is in Singapore.
Sweden is freaking out trying to make laws so they can force closures.
Hong Kong wants to make masks illegal.
Native Americans are first in line to get vaccines in US.
Russian Covid Scientist with Stab wound and sedatives falls out of building.
Florida data scientist coerced into changing covid data in favor of reopening.
Italy has the UK virus

I can't help it, I feel blinded if I don't look around to see.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 24, 2020, 04:41:51 AM
I know what you mean, Posh.  Ordinarily I am in the camp of 'knowledge means power' and normally I prefer to know what's going on than not.  But just now I'm keeping my eyes closed.  I did have to peek yesterday as they've changed the tiers here again so I looked on the local page to see if anything was any different and then wished I hadn't looked.  I'm carrying on doing my bit (staying in!) and there's little else I can do just now.

Mince pies are very British!  Lol, I usually make my own but decided not to this year, partly because I've only shopped for essentials and didn't want to faff about in the supermarket looking for various kinds of dried fruit and candied peel.  I bought bite size ones as I'm on a diet so I'm hoping I don't scoff the whole box :)  They are yummy but for me a true 'just at Christmas' thing; even on Boxing Day I don't want one.

I feel as you do, that the situation won't just magically resolve once the vaccines start rolling out.  It's a global problem; we're really going to need all countries to work together on this one.  But - for now it's back to the Christmas songs and mince pies for a bit :)  Merry Christmas, Posh! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 24, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
Probably many people tune in and tune out periodically.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 24, 2020, 09:19:14 PM
I think you're right, Posh.

It's a dance to calibrate how much to take in and how much to consign to grander views like "the universe"...etc.

Helps me to get the longest view possible, at the moment.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 27, 2020, 11:53:51 AM
Well our local numbers are the highest they've been since this started.  I don't get it.  I know they've said the new strain is more infectious but they've not said that the current precautions aren't enough to avoid infection?  So are people not taking precautions and that's why they're getting infected more frequently?  Or is it getting through the current precautions?  I wish they knew what they were doing.  Some parts of the country are locked down again; officially we're not in the part I live but I think we'll be staying in for a while yet, particularly as people have mingled over Christmas.  I guess it will take a couple of weeks to see if that creates a peak of any kind.  They have started vaccinating but it's going to be a while before that starts making much of a difference.  Has just been bizarre to sit here thinking that last Christmas we'd never even heard of Covid and this year it's everywhere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 27, 2020, 03:13:31 PM
Same disease but a little different; it spreads more easily. (There are heavier viral loads in those who spread the variant; that's why.)

Hence, this means "usual precautions" such as continuing to shop in stores while wearing a mask is inadequate. Instead, if one has the option, do real lockdown for protection except for urgent/emergency needs. Vaccination levels when they reach herd immunity will protect everybody but we're not there yet as vaccination distribution just got underway. We all have to dig deep to find the patience to continue with personal quarantine to the max we can, but that's what safety reuires, as I've understood it.

I figure when the variant arrives in one's area, one just needs to assume there are a lot more virus particles around than there were before, so extra care is necessary. Hence, new lockdowns. (I actually think they're responding to what the science indicates.)

Dr. Fauci told us this winter would be bad. I trust him. So I'm just more literal about the cautions than ever, rather than dropping my guard.

I found this a helpful article:
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/12/27/what-you-should-know/ (https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/12/27/what-you-should-know/)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 28, 2020, 07:22:04 AM
Thanks, Hops, that is helpful, that article is clearer than the ones I've been reading over here (odd how other countries often have a clearer picture of what's going on than our own seems to at times).  I'm still muddled about the viral load though - it means you have more of the virus to pass on to other people?  But it doesn't make you yourself sicker than the other variant did?  Is that right?  And is the other variant still circulating or has this one replaced it now?  Either way we are staying in for the foreseeable future.  We're pretty well stocked food wise and I'm just stocking up on vitamins again; I got son's meds in before Christmas so we're alright for that for a while as well.  I feel I'm at the bottom of my digging deep capabilities just now.  I'm focusing on the house and garden, son seems to be doing alright at the minute.  The birds are enjoying the extra food.  I've just ordered next year's diary and a book on making your own cleaning products, toiletries and so on.  I feel let down that so many people who aren't at risk don't seem to understand that those who are can't cope with being shut in all day any better than they can.  I caught up with a friend over Christmas who I assumed didn't know we'd been shielding since March, but it turned out she did but just hadn't thought to call or return my calls in all that time.  That prickles me.  I think I am just feeling extra prickly at the moment xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 28, 2020, 10:20:21 AM
Hi Tupp!
I'm no scientist but this is what I believe are the answers to your questions (which should all be double-checked....):

Quote
I'm still muddled about the viral load though - it means you have more of the virus to pass on to other people?  YES; That's why more people will get this strain, because nearby carriers--including asymptomatic--have in their respiratory systems and thus are emitting more infectious microparticles. And masks do leak and are only 65% effective: https://www.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/news/your-mask-cuts-own-risk-65-percent/. [Since you can't know who's got which once the new variant hits your area and asymptomatic infection's still possible, quarantine (lockdown) is the primary protection. The only addition so far to my routine is being more careful to also wear a mask outdoors (dangling from one ear but easy to whip back on when a walker comes too close.) But it doesn't make you yourself sicker than the other variant did? SEE Dr VALLANCE QUOTE BELOW.  Is that right? YES. And is the other variant still circulating or has this one replaced it now? IT HAS NOT REPLACED THE ORIGINAL FORM OF COVID-19 AS THE ORIGINAL STRAIN IS STILL INFECTING PEOPLE.

I don't blame you for feeling prickly, Tupp. I think each new development feels threatening until we realize we really can cope. I do trust that by summer life will be a lot better again, even though we may all tote masks for shopping or crowds as new normal behavior. (Maybe next year's vaccine will be reformulated like the flu vaccine is from year to year, but even scientists don't know what they don't know yet. In time they will. Even a pandemic is not a brand-new event; this one's just extra nasty. Scientists have what's real to offer; selfish politicians -- oy.)

[from US News, reliable mainstream--if you don't trust Johnson just focus on what Vallance says] "There's no evidence that it causes more severe illness or higher mortality, but it does appear to be passed on significantly more easily," [Boris] Johnson told a news conference to announce tougher lockdown restrictions for millions of people.
"Although there's considerable uncertainty, it may be up to 70% more transmissible than the old variant, the original version of the disease. This is early data and it's subject to review.
"But it's the best that we have at the moment and we have to act on information as we have it, because this is now spreading very fast." [....]

Britain's Chief Scientific Adviser Patrick Vallance said COVID-19 vaccines appeared to be adequate in generating an immune response to the variant of the coronavirus.
"We think it (the variant) may be in other countries as well," Vallance told reporters. "It may have started here, we don't know for sure."
Vallance said in parts of England, including London, the south east and east of England, the new variant was becoming the dominant form.
"This virus has taken off," he said of the mutation. "It's moving fast and it's leading inevitably to a sharp increase in hospital admissions."
"There is no evidence it causes a more severe disease, causes more hospitalisation, causes more trouble than the other virus, it basically looks similar."

Scientists do hedge their bets with ambiguous responses before they are absolutely, precisely certain of something; that's their training. But when they add words like "may" or "preliminary indications" or "looks like" I don't think they're being deceptive, just saying what they know and what they don't yet have rock-solid evidence for about a virus' or virus strain's behavior. I have no anxiety about scientific deception of the public. Political, sure--this country's super sick in that way. And politics has undercut scientists' attempts to inform and explain. That's affected the public's reaction in disastrous fashion. Hence, our numbers now are the worst in the world. THIS TOO SHALL PASS.

One way I cope is setting up semi-regular Zooms. I have a Zoom with a neighbor I'm close to, which we do at least twice a month. Then there's weekly Zoom therapy and even online church services, which I avoid in December but probably will return to in the new year. (I mostly lurk, using an icon instead of a photo as my image. I don't even get dressed, just have it running while I loll around. During the boring bits I open up a new window with a subscription and read something interesting.)

The other thing that helps me cope is to remind myself that I've gotten through 9 months of this without losing my mind or burning the house down, and even though it's felt very acute at times, I know I can cope with 4 more months. I look at what Britons endured during WWII and Americans during the Great Depression and figure--this is not unendurable, though it really sucks.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 28, 2020, 11:49:47 AM
Thanks, Hops, I think I am starting to understand it better now.  I get bits I don't understand and I don't like to go hunting online for answers because I invariably end up reading stuff that either upsets, frightens or infuriates me.  Vallance always sounds fairly sane, unlike Johnson, and it's the lack of trust that the government is showing in science that's causing problems, I think - they keep not doing what the science people advise re lockdowns, closing schools etc - and then how do you get the general public to follow the science when the government don't?  Large parts of the country are locked down again now but people keep traveling to places that aren't locked down.  And schools are all due back next week despite the fact the boffins are saying keep them closed until we get on top of this again.  Mercifully, the evenings get lighter quickly at this time of year so we're already getting an extra thirty to forty minutes of daylight which for me makes a huge difference.  Beautiful full moon tonight as well.  Just got to dig deep and hold on in there a bit longer.  I think the noise today has been a problem as well - one neighbour has been doing DIY stuff with many power tools all day, which means the dogs have barked constantly and that on top of everything else doesn't help.  Breathe.  The house is looking cleaner and more orderly and I'm hoping to get out for a long walk early tomorrow morning; that will help as well xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Bettyanne on December 28, 2020, 05:05:20 PM
OMG Two A Penny......
I hope you get out for a walk.....tomorrow....and day after.....
Its a lot to deal with noise of power tools.......and dogs barking
reminds me of my Nanny and mother always at each others throats...
Its not that I hear them now forsure but the memories don't seem to fade
I think it was pure abuse.....or maybe my age?
Who knows

Love, Bettyanne
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on December 29, 2020, 07:32:41 PM
Our local health department staff all quit. The director & contact tracing nurses etc. An entire group of them. Says it all. And the so called National Guard that was earlier mentioned and shown handing out food on the news doesn't actually seem to do very much at all to help the communities. Show of force government. The community family & health director QUIT. Maybe they are getting death threats, I wouldn't be surprised.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on December 31, 2020, 08:28:47 AM
Thanks, BettyAnne.  I manage to get out early morning most days and it's lovely - quiet, very few people around, not much traffic on the road.  Sorry that you still have those memories from childhood.  I think they can become very deeply embedded in us, unfortunately.

Posh, I have to say I'm not surprised people are quitting and I don't blame them.  Our docs and nurses here are begging people to stay home and take precautions if they do go out.  Hospitals are full and out of equipment, staff are exhausted and demoralised, ambulances are queuing in car parks to get patients in - and social media is full of people arranging New Year's Eve parties, shopping without masks on and claiming it's all made up and nothing much is really happening.  We haven't left the house other than to go for a walk since Christmas Eve now and we won't be until they've got this genie back in the bottle.  Restrictions have been increased here now, non-essential shops and services are all shut, the library's back to doing click and collect but I think we'll avoid even that - our town is the worst affected in our area, probably because it's the most densely populated.  I feel like I want to hide under the duvet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on December 31, 2020, 11:54:18 AM
It's safe under the duvet, ((((((Tupp))))).

Social media amplifies fear, negativity and terror. Sometimes facts support that but overall, it is NOT a good place to get news or context. I am so grateful I'm not on it.

Even mainstream, reliable media make clear that this is a sobering time with real danger present. But you know what to do to stay safe, and you are doing it, and it really will end.

If you'll forgive unsolicited advice: try not to tend a great bubbling stewpot of anxiety while spicing it with social media's toxic foam that inevitably rises to the top.

Boy, you can count on me for some tortured metaphors. Bad poet!

big hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on January 01, 2021, 10:28:25 PM
Ok.  One of my neighbors tested positive for Covid on Monday.  This would have been a day or so after he dropped Christmas beer and cookies on my front porch.  He's one of the backyard dig playdate brigade I've been too busy to join, thank God.

My truck has transmission troubles at the lake, and local mechanic was sick for 2 weeks, without feeling better, before Christmas.  He went into hospital for Christmas.  I hear he's going to be ok.

So....that brings us to my Ohio cousins....one tested positive for Covid a while back. All their friends have it going around.  Ohio has a level purple, I'm told, which is the worst Covid alert.

This leads into a Christmas Covid chaos story, but will post it on my Mindfulness thread.

Lighter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 03, 2021, 06:23:43 AM
Elderly neighbour just popped round and I didn't let him in; I felt awful but this new strain seems to be so much more infectious and I really just want to keep away from people as much as possible.  We chatted on the doorstep; he was in hospital over Christmas, not away as I'd thought.  I do wonder about his confusion; he initially said he had a twisted bowel, then that he had Covid (this is in the space of five minutes).  Also said the doctors told him he'd been in contact with someone who'd had it and he wanted to know who it was so he could go and beat them up (he's on crutches and struggles to walk; the idea that he could beat someone up is clearly not something that could become reality but it seems to be a theme with him so I'm being careful).  It's so hard, I feel so bad that so many people are struggling at the moment but I feel like I'm only hanging on by a thread myself and we just can't catch this virus, it's too dangerous for us.  I did explain and he said he understood and I said I'd pop round once things had calmed down a bit.  Perhaps I could pop round and we'll sit in his garden with masks on rather than sitting indoors, that might work.  I'm really trying to focus on looking after me and son.  There's just so little left for anyone else.  It's so sad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 03, 2021, 10:26:42 AM
Ahhhh, ((((Tupp)))), you have such a kind heart.
It's not just compulsion-to-solve-problem, it's empathy.

But you do know you are doing your first considerable job, which is to keep
yourself (and likewise your son) Covid free, despite others' recklessness.

I recall some helpful gossip you heard about this old fellow, that he's gotten
skilful at manipulating others to feel responsible for him. And that he's been
unpleasant (or possibly abusive?) -- hence family steer clear and he's not
awash in friends.

That doesn't mean nobody should alert a local agency or church if he's
in emergency straits, just that he is kind of sitting in his own solitude
right now just as so many are. It's a lot harder for the very old, but it's still
part karma, part luck...and perhaps sometimes, part personality.

Who knows whom he actually DID beat up in his time? Perhaps he was a
"crap man" too when younger? It's good to feel compassion, but he might be someone who if he senses a kind nature, might ooze right in to maneuver you into responsibility. You already have so much on your plate.

You're the only one who can figure out what's right for you to do regarding him.
I just hope you won't let toxic guilt creep in to sully whatever you decide.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 06, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
Thanks, Hops, it's okay, I'm keeping my distance.   I'm getting better at feeling something's not good but not feeling like it's my responsibility to deal with that.  I think at the moment everyone I speak to, in whatever capacity, is struggling - either because of not seeing people, because they think it's not real and they're being controlled, because they think it's very likely to kill them, because their business is going under or they aren't earning enough to pay their mortgage, everyone's having a bad experience with this so it's hard not to feel bad for people - part of being human, I guess.  But - myself and son come first (and I will update on my new action plan on the other thread lol).

We are in full national lockdown again here, until at least mid Feb but quite honestly I think it will be longer.  Several hospitals have closed their doors to any more patients, some have canceled routine surgeries and procedures, many are operating at a capacity that means they can't provide good quality care to their existing patients.  They reckon approximately 1,000,000 people are infected at the minute.  We had acupuncture this morning so walked into town early; it wasn't that quiet?  A lot more people are working through this one, it would seem.  The session was nice and we caught the bus home; that was quiet so that was good and we won't be out again now until Saturday, when I have my hospital scan booked.  I feel that all we can really do is stay home as much as possible and just be grateful that the days are starting to get longer again and we're getting some really nice afternoon sun at the moment.  Little things xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 08, 2021, 08:37:48 AM
Well some good news, although confusing - our county is currently one of the safest in the country, which is really good to know.  What has confused me is that the county along from ours (which you can only get into by driving through the county I live in) is very bad, even though they're even more rural than us and have a smaller population over a larger area.  I struggle to get my head around that - busy towns and cities, of course are likely to be more affected, but I'd have assumed any sparsely populated country would have an easier time.  Anyway, it's cheered me up a bit - still locked down, obviously, and still not taking any chances but it's nice to know the supermarket probably isn't the death trap I thought it was.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 08, 2021, 03:07:11 PM
I hope that lasts, ((((Tupp)))!

I've made two changes in my personal practice:

1) Instead of one mask, I'm now wearing two. A simple surgical mask first, topped with a pleated cloth mask. Lucky it's winter--I'm finding it quite comfortable.

2) Not that I was much anyway, but I'm going out only to go to pod-partner's (M's) house a few times a month. I can't find any need to physically go anywhere except for the odd walk.

Since it's respiratory, viral and that's the biggest transmission, for me the double-mask feels comforting and empowering.

The rest is up to time. May be summer before I'm vaccinated and from what I read, we need to wear masks anyway. Vaccination doesn't guarantee not getting it, though of course it'll help.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 09, 2021, 05:48:28 AM
Sounds sensible to me, Hopsie.  I feel safer now we're back in lockdown; there are just fewer people out and about which naturally means more space between people.  Doesn't stop the virus in its tracks, obviously, but it has made a difference on local numbers already which has to be a good thing.  And I think it will get easier again as we head back to spring and summer, just because socially distanced sitting outside becomes possible again and that helps.

Information about vaccines here seems to be changing frequently.  I think we've just had a third approved for use.  They've vaccinated about a million over 80s so far and have agreed to vaccinate frontline healthcare workers as a priority.  Son is currently in Priority group 6 so is expected to come to the top of the list in March.  Unpaid carers (like myself) are currently not scheduled as a priority but various groups are pressuring for that to change and if it does, I should get mine at the same time as son.  If not, between June and September has been suggested (and all of this assumes that they roll out as they're planning to).  As I understand it the vaccine won't be a miracle solution, as you say, distancing, masks and common sense will need to be employed for a long time yet and some docs/science people here think lockdowns over winter for the next few years might prove to be necessary.  I suppose it depends on other countries vaccinating as well and whether we really get on top of it all.  At the mo I'm feeling grateful that we can stay in a lot; son seems to be perfectly happy and I feel less anxious as the numbers are dropping nearby.  Plus it's cold!  I'm getting out for my morning walks, getting son out most days when its dry but will be very glad to see sunshine and long sunny days again :)  I forget how much I miss the sun until I see it again :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on January 09, 2021, 08:45:04 AM
It's reported that California had more than 670+ deaths in one day. It's been numbing to listen to people all chant "wash your hands" and "wear masks" as if that is doing anything at all. News was broadcasting one male airplane passenger complaining about other passengers not wearing masks, if that one guy was so concerned with the pandemic however he wouldn't be on an airplane at all. There are so many layers of nonsense. So many airplanes being allowed to constantly zip around the world is part of what has helped spread this virus from continent to continent, airline travel in general certainly has not been helping in anyway.

A local TV station broadcasts a dull board of commissioner meeting which I sometimes watch because it can be an antidote away from the slanted massive media broadcasts, problem is the board of commissioners have spent 3+ weeks slowly discussing possible fines and fees associated with breaking covid restrictions. It's very slow and watching it all makes me question the ineffectual paper-pushing vibe these government employees have. Sitting in their home offices just discussing things which are not even guaranteed to be implemented in a consistent enforced way. In the interim the vaccine process has been slow and sluggish. It's understandable that there are a limited amount of healthcare workers. What I don't get is why there are no statements about planning strategic drive through vaccine centers. In this state there is apparently an honor system for vaccine tiers. The lack of strategy feels a lot like Hurricane Katrina except that the pandemic has been slowly ramping up for a very long time now. In the end it doesn't matter anymore they are lucky if they can get anybody vaccinated. No doubt the wealthiest have already received private vaccines as billionaires are ultra VIP essential workers.

January 20, 2020
was the date someone in this state was first diagnosed with Covid19. Now it's January 9th, 2021

I guess it's good that there are vaccines and medications yes but the process is so slow (as expected) it's just dragging on.


Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Dr. Richard Grossman on January 10, 2021, 05:22:36 PM
Hi everyone,

Such times we are living in!  Children are certainly being deeply affected as well.  See below:

https://khn.org/news/article/childrens-hospitals-grapple-with-wave-of-mental-illness/

Take care,

Richard
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 15, 2021, 11:13:21 AM
This state's governor just updated vaccine criteria to include every person over age 70, no specific health conditions required. Just went on the dept of health's website and signed up to receive a text message with my vaccine appointment.

Hope it's soon. It's encouraging.

Nothing changes with regard to masking and social distancing and similar behavior, and I won't go into public places for months more....we don't know quite enough about the immunity yet. But I'll feel more comfortable having also-vaccinated close friends into my house now and then, I think, which'd be a great relief.

Even going out and about will feel safer *in about a month (depending when my appointment is).

Trusting that all of us will very soon be in the vaccination pipeline. dig deep for the patience we'll need! (I was too optimistic in my first draft of this.)

hugs
Hops

PS *A friend volunteering in the front-line vaccines rollout sez not to get my hopes up about "soon" -- given chaos in current rollout, limits to availability, and the huge size of the demographic I'm in, it could be summer or even later. Paaaaatience.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 16, 2021, 06:29:47 AM
Hi everyone,

Such times we are living in!  Children are certainly being deeply affected as well.  See below:

https://khn.org/news/article/childrens-hospitals-grapple-with-wave-of-mental-illness/

Take care,

Richard

It is so sad, Dr G, I'm just hoping that more people realise that no-one is immune to health problems or just a run of bad luck/unexpected change of circumstances and that we all need well run, well funded public services all the time - even if we're not using them personally.  It really has been a lesson in how important it is to work together and how quickly situations can change.  Hope you and your family are all doing okay xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 16, 2021, 06:37:40 AM
This state's governor just updated vaccine criteria to include every person over age 70, no specific health conditions required. Just went on the dept of health's website and signed up to receive a text message with my vaccine appointment.

Hope it's soon. It's encouraging.

Nothing changes with regard to masking and social distancing and similar behavior, and I won't go into public places for months more....we don't know quite enough about the immunity yet. But I'll feel more comfortable having also-vaccinated close friends into my house now and then, I think, which'd be a great relief.

Even going out and about will feel safer *in about a month (depending when my appointment is).

Trusting that all of us will very soon be in the vaccination pipeline. dig deep for the patience we'll need! (I was too optimistic in my first draft of this.)

hugs
Hops

PS *A friend volunteering in the front-line vaccines rollout sez not to get my hopes up about "soon" -- given chaos in current rollout, limits to availability, and the huge size of the demographic I'm in, it could be summer or even later. Paaaaatience.

I will keep my fingers crossed that it's sooner than summer, Hopsie.  It seems pretty chaotic here as well; son's expected date has been pushed back from March to anytime between April and June and I've been told for me it could be anywhere between August and November.  In my mind I've assumed it's going to take a year and then if it's quicker it will be nice :)  Hopefully not slower!  Dear God, that doesn't bare thinking about.

In other news, possibly interesting, I've been invited to take an antibody test.  They're testing random groups of people to see how prevalent asymptomatic Covid is and they're wanting to get an idea of how many people might have had it without knowing.  It's apparently a pin prick test I can do at home (they send me a kit) and then I upload the results onto their survey.  It will be interesting to see. Son is very excited that we're doing science at home lol.  I'll let you all know!  But meantime, Hopsie, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an earlier jab for you.  Are your vaccines in two doses or one?  I think they've approved several different ones here now, I've lost track a bit but I know at least a couple of them require two shots.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 16, 2021, 09:59:17 AM
Wow, that'll be interesting, Tupp, to find out if you have antibodies. Nice!

I'm not certain, but believe it'll be the two-dose one.

Of late it's wearing on me more than it had before, I'm sure because of the combo of bad news + isolation. But I think spring and warmth will fix the latter and meanwhile, I'm lucky to be safe, warm, and with people I can call if I can't stand it any more.

Hanging in and hope you are too.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 16, 2021, 10:17:50 AM
Wow, that'll be interesting, Tupp, to find out if you have antibodies. Nice!

I'm not certain, but believe it'll be the two-dose one.

Of late it's wearing on me more than it had before, I'm sure because of the combo of bad news + isolation. But I think spring and warmth will fix the latter and meanwhile, I'm lucky to be safe, warm, and with people I can call if I can't stand it any more.

Hanging in and hope you are too.

hugs
Hops

It will be interesting, I'm just curious about that sort of thing - not that I think there's much chance I've had it as we were staying in before we were told to and we've really been careful so less chance to catch it plus no symptoms seems unlikely to me, but interesting non the less!

I have found it more wearing just lately as well, Hopsie, and I think you're right - lack of daylight and warm sunshine, further restricted social activities and all sorts of things going on in all sorts of places as well.  But - there are videos of dolphins surfing on YouTube :)  So that makes me smile.  I will be glad to see the sunshine again and to be able to go out without having to calculate the risk and decide whether or not it's worth it.  Keep on hanging on in there xx xx xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 17, 2021, 06:49:56 AM
Just had word from my sister that my aunty has died from Covid.  It seems that she was unwell for a mercifully short period of time so I'm hoping that it wasn't horribly painful - as far as I'm aware she was at home and heavily sedated so I'm hoping she just went to sleep and didn't know any more about it.  This is the first time someone I know really well has been affected - friends have lost relatives and/or work colleagues and so on but this is the first in my immediate circle.  My sister said it really brought home to her how dangerous it could be for our mum.  I feel like I was aware of that, which is why I've reached out to her a couple of times since this started.  She's not responded so I think best for me to leave well alone - I'll send condolences to my cousins and check in on my other aunty (the other sister) but I'll leave mum be.  I do think it's so sad that as a family we can't even comfort one another during difficult times but there we are.  That's an aunt, and uncle and a cousin all gone in the last year.  It's very sobering.  Anyway, sorry to be posting negative news.  I really can't wait for a time when this is all over.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 17, 2021, 12:18:37 PM
I'm really sorry about your aunty, Tupp.

One thing I think about is that dying from Covid-19 is essentially dying from pneumonia, which used to be called "the old man's friend" as a gentle way to go. I wonder if the medical "fights" with multiple drugs plus mechanicals makes it tougher than it needs to be. That's maybe partly our medical model--death must be defeated. Hmmm.

I don't know, but I wonder if being in the ICU with all those medical interventions plus the trauma of intubation isn't a way worse way to go (and only 65% of those intubated survive anyway). If at-home morphine and sedation and supplemental oxygen (without intubation) can make the discomfort bearable, I'd opt for that too.

All I can compare it to is my Ngent I worked for -- the night before he died we visited and talked and he was gone of pneumonia in the morning.

I hope it was gentle and unaware for her, in peace at home.
(Wise call about your Nmum, too. She'll find her own peace when her time comes.)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 18, 2021, 02:39:57 AM
Thanks, Hops.  As I understand it there was no intervention, she was made comfortable at home and I'm hoping that does mean it was relatively peaceful.  She lost her husband a few years ago and I know she missed him very much so hopefully they're together again now.  I think those 'what happens after we die' threads can be comforting even when none of us know for sure.  I do feel bad for people not being able to have funerals.  I think the limit here at the moment is ten people which will only allow for her children and grandchildren to attend.  Very hard for other loved ones not to be able to say goodbye in person (although I understand the need for restrictions).  And yes, I'll leave mum to it - she knows where I am (as she's fond of making sure I know when she sends my son stuff each time we move) so she can reach out if she wants to.

In (hopefully) slightly better news, case numbers have started to drop.  They're still very high but they are going down.  Doctors are still swamped and awful pictures are emerging of ambulances queuing outside hospitals and Covid patients being treated in corridors but it seems admissions have stabilised so although the death rate will still climb for a while hopefully that will start to drop soon as well.  As always I am very grateful to have all of you here during this mad and crazy time xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 18, 2021, 10:47:51 AM
It's amazing what we've all acclimated to this year, isn't it?

BTW, I mis-typed (ADD brain) that statistic. It's only 35% of those intubated who survive. And many with lasting damage. Motivation not to get Covid in the first place is very high. On the brighter side, locally there is a large plan underway to set up a massive vaccine center in the space of an old "KMart" -- the big discount store pre-WalMart. Huge place with ample parking. Dunno when my appointment will be but even if it's months away I'm grateful.

M lost an old friend (secretary for years) to Covid and was distraught about it last night. Second person he's known personally. I know a couple of people whose relatives in other places have contracted it.

I have my days when I'm a bit crazed by it all, but overall I feel very grateful and also fairly safe. Biggest danger to me is lack of exercise and my inner ADD stuff, but there is still time to make this winter about getting healthier.

I'm so grateful for you too, Tupp--always will be.

Big hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 19, 2021, 07:28:29 AM
It's amazing what we've all acclimated to this year, isn't it?

BTW, I mis-typed (ADD brain) that statistic. It's only 35% of those intubated who survive. And many with lasting damage. Motivation not to get Covid in the first place is very high. On the brighter side, locally there is a large plan underway to set up a massive vaccine center in the space of an old "KMart" -- the big discount store pre-WalMart. Huge place with ample parking. Dunno when my appointment will be but even if it's months away I'm grateful.

M lost an old friend (secretary for years) to Covid and was distraught about it last night. Second person he's known personally. I know a couple of people whose relatives in other places have contracted it.

I have my days when I'm a bit crazed by it all, but overall I feel very grateful and also fairly safe. Biggest danger to me is lack of exercise and my inner ADD stuff, but there is still time to make this winter about getting healthier.

I'm so grateful for you too, Tupp--always will be.

Big hugs,
Hops

I'm sorry about M's friend, Hopsie.  It is all very close to home now.  I was talking to a friend yesterday - she has a friend whose son has caught it, her partner has a relative who has it, another friend has a friend who's on a ventilator.  It feels like it's changed from many saying 'no-one I know has caught it' to many saying the opposite now.  And it's very sobering.  But yes, like you, I have days when it all catches up with me, but on the whole we're getting on with what we can and very grateful for the time, actually.  I'd never have taken an extended period like this just to stay home and not rush about all the time so it's given me opportunities to think about a lot of things.  And to think about the future.  I don't want it to be like the past.  I'm working to change that.  And I hope they get that big vaccine centre up and running so you can get your jab soon!  I think they've given first doses to about four million people here now.  I can't fathom the logistics for having to vaccinate an entire population twice and then having to do it all again because it needs to be done yearly?  But I guess greater brains than mine are working on it so there must be a way :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on January 21, 2021, 10:10:44 PM
I go from being super worried about Covid to forgetting about it entirely at moments because I'm doing something else.

Start of this month I had a week straight of covid dreams and nightmares.

It feels like THE PANDEMIC will never end. At some point maybe there will be a low sickness rate and someone with authority might announce an end to the pandemic whatever that means. It does seem likely the virus will just continue to mutate and mutate and mutate until everybody with underlying diseases are dead from either the disease or covid. Who knows. I'm always grim. I will self identify as a gloomy and negative person.

Sometimes I feel a bit angry in knowing the disease may have been prevented, I mean it's arguable like EVERYTHING is arguable. Still it all comes into crisp focus when a person becomes sick or dies. I dislike the abstract numbers of deaths they don't make any sense to me. Some commentators say the numbers of deaths are not high enough to justify social distancing. There are so very many many commentators and opinions.



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 22, 2021, 09:16:29 AM
Sometimes I think that humanity is getting its overdue lesson from nature.
We wouldn't rein in our selfish ways to protect the earth or animals, so she's reminding us who's in charge.

That's too apocalyptic to last long in my head, but it does occur.

hugs
HOps
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 24, 2021, 09:25:49 AM
I go from being super worried about Covid to forgetting about it entirely at moments because I'm doing something else.

Start of this month I had a week straight of covid dreams and nightmares.

It feels like THE PANDEMIC will never end. At some point maybe there will be a low sickness rate and someone with authority might announce an end to the pandemic whatever that means. It does seem likely the virus will just continue to mutate and mutate and mutate until everybody with underlying diseases are dead from either the disease or covid. Who knows. I'm always grim. I will self identify as a gloomy and negative person.

Sometimes I feel a bit angry in knowing the disease may have been prevented, I mean it's arguable like EVERYTHING is arguable. Still it all comes into crisp focus when a person becomes sick or dies. I dislike the abstract numbers of deaths they don't make any sense to me. Some commentators say the numbers of deaths are not high enough to justify social distancing. There are so very many many commentators and opinions.

True that there are so many opinions, Posh, and also so much speculation.  Very difficult to be sure about anything just now, I think.  I've just taken the approach that my son's risk is high (and although mine isn't high medically, I don't even like having a cold - I definitely don't fancy catching this so I'd rather not), so we're avoiding as many people as we can, as much as we can.  I'm like you, sometimes I forget all about it, then other things catch me and it comes into stark focus again.  There was a man in the supermarket the other night wearing a gas mask; that did make me smile :) We have been advised here to get medical grade masks now, which of course means you can't because they all sold out within a matter of hours.  I was just talking to a friend who's had to work through it (school teacher) and we were talking about how stressed everybody is now, whatever their situation in life.  It's a leveler, I think, a situation like this.  Reminds us all that none of us are infallible.  I'll be glad when it's at least down to a level where your risk of catching it is the same as getting any other kind of illness that might be a bad thing.  We do all live with risk every day, it just feels a bit like this is swimming with sharks xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on January 24, 2021, 09:24:22 PM
Yeah too bad about the med grade mask shortage, no surprise there right. Ughh

The fabric masks when I put them on I notice the air does not flow through the fabric part. Instead the air flows along the concave areas on the side of my nose and through gaps in the side of the fabric. Also there is the ocular membrane so yeah better to stay socially distanced.

I have to even tell myself STILL it's okay to do social distancing, I am NOT being rude and I am NOT a hypochondriac for wanting to stay safe and healthy. Social distancing is not a sign of a phobia during a pandemic. It's wild that I have to do this self talk but there are a lot of people who are still offended by the actions of those who are trying to be safe.

Good luck.

On a bright note, even in the cold season here I am starting to see little buds on lilac trees, little tiny leaf bundles popping up out of iris rhizomes, a single rose bud hanging on for dear life in a windy, dark and snow-forecasted climate. Poppy plants are still green, purple heather is blooming, some insects are out, the local hummingbird is still around even though we had a massive windstorm. I see signs of spring even in January. Columbines sending up small new growth bunches of leaves below the older brown stems. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 26, 2021, 04:37:17 AM
I love the signs of Spring!  Trees are starting to bud here (even though we just had snow) and I'm feeding the birds twice a day now so the tree outside our house is full of birds, they're so nice to watch.  Curious cat sometimes climbs to the top of the tree and peeks in my son's bedroom window, which is so cute.  I bought some daffodils this morning to brighten up the kitchen window.

Advice here is to maintain social distancing, Posh, so I think you're right to keep doing it.  I'm quite toughened up to people's reactions because we've had it for years with my son's disability - people pointing, staring, demanding to know why you're using a disabled parking bay or disabled toilet and so on, so I've had to get used to just getting on with what we're doing and paying no mind to other people.  It's been helpful through this; we just get on with keeping our distance and people can do whatever they want to :)  It's good to keep it up; your own safety's more important.

Medical masks are available again now which is good so I've ordered a box and they should be here this week (we're not due to go out again until next week :) ).  Local numbers have finally started to drop but they're still very high and much higher than they were during the first 'wave'.  Hospital admissions appear to have stabilised; it does seem that this huge increase has been largely down to people getting together over Christmas.  The hospitals are still very busy, apparently, but the number of new patients being admitted seems to have settled a bit.  The death rate's been mind blowing but just seems to have become a normal part of life now.  I don't think that's healthy but I guess we all do to it cope with what's going on.  Nationwide numbers are still high, in terms of new cases and that's a worry - if the numbers don't drop rapidly during lockdown how do you ever manage it?  That bit still concerns me, particularly with new variants appearing.  I feel more concerned now with the long term implications of this being around for several years and the UKs approach being 'we'll wait till the hospitals are full and people are dying in their thousands and then we'll close everyone's businesses down and shut the schools again'.  Given that the vaccines reduce the chances of being seriously ill rather than ensuring you won't get ill and/or don't stop you catching it or passing it on to someone else I'm guessing it will still be an ongoing problem and that all they're aiming for is to make it manageable enough that the hospitals don't get swamped?  Which would still mean the personal risk level being high if you're older or have other health care problems.  Son's future in a situation like that worries me now.  The allure of a more remote area, where we can get out and about more but around fewer people, thereby (hopefully) reducing the risk of exposure, is on my mind a lot just now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 27, 2021, 12:03:00 PM
Johnson's extended the current lockdown to March 8th at least; that's the earliest schools will go back and that's assuming people are getting vaccinated and the numbers are going down.  Other things will start to open up after schools go back, assuming that the numbers remain low.

I messed up the antibody test because I got blood on the bit where you read the result so I couldn't see what the answer was.  Bit gutting, it would have been interesting to know but there we are - it's a weeny little test stick and I was too clumsy to do what I needed to.  I just feel soooo tired all the time, there's such a lack of variety of pace through the day.  I'm keeping busy but I have to motivate myself and I find that hard over such an extended period of time.  I'll be glad when it's over.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 28, 2021, 08:41:44 AM
I understand the waves of fatigue, Tupp. Psychological or physical. Several of my friends seem to be going through a trough right now too--I think the reality of "maybe summer" for completed vaccinations for many, and the uncertainty of when you'll actually get your shots, is eating at serenity. People announce they've gotten a shot and you feel glad for them but worried about when you'll hear about your own. I'm supposedly on a list (signed up twice to get email or text notification) but nothing's happened so far. My poet-friend's partner got his (heart issue + age).

I'm finding myself comfortable in double-masks. The N95s are unavailable but the combo of one of those blue disposable masks covered with a fabric mask feels fine in cold weather, and I just read from a couple medical sources that using both is very close to as protective as an N95. I also like the idea of the simple fabric ones that have a top where you can tuck in a little slice of vacuuum cleaner (hoover) filter. Either of those getups nearly equals the N95. That plus sticking to my imaginary 8-foot distance seems sane enough to me. When I get super-restless in spring I'll just take more lovely drives with Pooch (and maybe M) and remind myself our mountains and lakes haven't gone anywhere, and we can go for walks in varied lovely places. Meanwhile, I go out no more than once a week, generally. Occasionally twice to M's for dinner; he's just 10 minutes away.

The only area where I still get tense is the food deliveries. I know that as they got more information about the virus the emphasis became by far more on respiratory transmission than surfaces so I'm not panic-spraying things the way I was, but it still makes me uneasy until they're all put away out of sight. I ignore the canned or boxed items for days, which means it dies on its own, but don't enjoy having big brown bags out on every surface for that time. Small problem though. Indoors is safer so I'm glad it's winter in a way. Hah. Never expected myself to say THAT.

I'm peaceful in my little home with Pooch, and feeling a bit better. First snow this morning! Just a sprinkle but it's pretty. I think "normal" will include masking for a long time, just the way it does in Asian countries where there's nothing weird about a mask over a face. But that's okay with me. I'll just have to master the art of hold-your-breath-hugging when the all-clear horn sounds.

One positive I am sensing now and then is that the turmoil of the pandemic, and the sorrow, has made many people more gentle rather than less (though that gets no headlines, of course). Like they're feeling a tenderness toward others because of our mutual fragility in the face of this hard pandemic. In my wee circles anyway, I've heard a lot of people regularly say things about gratitude. And when people talk about their distress, there's more kindness visible than before. Less vapid consumerism talk and more, even on Zoom, people expressing how meaningful and good it is to see each others' faces.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 28, 2021, 11:37:22 PM
Just found Kimberly-Clark N95 respirators (masks) on Amazon -- $50 for a pack of 50.

I go out among people so seldom that I think these'll get me through summer, by which time all Americans should be vaccinated (fingers crossed).

If one can't find N95s, the double masking technique is recommended any time one goes indoors among people (grocery store, non-household members in home, etc.) That's a normal disposable mask topped by a fabric one. You can stick in little rectangle cut from vaccuum cleaner filters if you like.

They're getting very concerned about the U.K. variant which has arrived here, because it's so much more contagious. Next 4-8 weeks (public heath department head from a major univ. just said on TV) are the most dangerous.

Heads up, or heads down -- take care everybody. We'll get through this.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 29, 2021, 03:26:58 AM
It's good that you're noticing care and support in your local circles, Hopsie, and that you managed to get your masks.  Ours have arrived as well; we got a box of fifty and, like you, we're out so infrequently I think they'll last us for a long time yet, even if they are single use.  Do you know if single use means each environment or each day?  One getting on the bus and a fresh one for the osteopath?  Or are you okay to keep it on for both things?  So many things to keep up with :)

Yes, I think fatigue is becoming a big problem now.  It's just hard to manage without any variety to the day.  There's plenty to do but much of it is quite mundane and there's little in the way of excitement to balance it out a bit and I think that's quite draining.  I have told son that from now on we're going to alternate an hour of screen time with an hour of doing something else.  Even if he just reads for an hour before going back on the computer I think intervening is necessary now - the last couple of days he's only come away from the computer to eat and it worries me, especially as this is looking to be like such a long term thing now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on January 31, 2021, 02:31:30 PM
Local numbers have dropped significantly and I have to say I'm very relieved.  They're still higher than I feel comfortable with but the drop is a big one.  Nationally the drop is still relatively small but they do seem to be getting through the vaccinations better than expected.  Son and I won't be mingling until we're both vaccinated and the numbers are low in general which is still a long way off but I feel better that it's starting to look like they're getting the genie back into the bottle.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on January 31, 2021, 04:36:43 PM
From this bit on the CDC site it seems you might use the same single-use disposable mask for more than one errand in the same day, Tupp, because the chief thing they mention other than wearing one, is to be replacing dirty or damp ones. I have sometimes re-used them but am cutting that out now. I think a key thing is to handle them only by the ear loops to be certain you're not touching the front. So many people grab the fronts to adjust when they slip down, which defeats half the purpose, since its your inhalations that carry any virus onto the front of your mask, mostly. (It can also come in through side/top gaps if it's not right on your skin.)

Non-medical disposable masks
Disposable face masks are single-use masks. They are sold online and through large retail stores. These are not the same as surgical or other medical masks.

You may prefer using disposable masks in situations where your mask is likely to get wet or dirty. As with cloth masks, make sure your disposable mask fits close to your face without large side-gaps and completely covers your nose and mouth. Bring extra disposable masks with you in case you need to change out a dirty or wet mask.


So I don't know if you literally need one on the bus and another at the doctor's. It seems as though one could extrapolate cautious use of one disposable (under a fabric one) all day.

Maybe this, sez Dr. Hops: Be sure it fits right, cover it with a snug cloth one, and leave BOTH on all of the time you're out of your house. (And don't touch the front, adjust either one only from the ear loops, and wash your hands every chance you can.)

I'm pretty sure this was likely posted by the CDC before the more-contagious-variants threat, so before people were being advised to wear two, btw. With the new variants, best-practice advice has definitely been upgraded to double-masking.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on February 02, 2021, 04:11:36 AM

Full body condoms covering every mucus membrane.

Be safe people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on February 02, 2021, 04:12:04 AM
Thanks, Hops.  It's difficult to get into the new habits!  I found it very difficult to remember not to touch the front of the mask.  Son sailed through it, as usual.  He just remembers what he's supposed to do.  The bus was almost empty, there and back.  Town was surprisingly busy considering most of the shops are shut.  The only ones open are those selling food (one each end of the High Street and a few butchers/greengrocers along the side streets) and the Post Office, which is in the middle.  The big supermarkets are in retail parks which are on the edge of town so the two in town are quite small food shops.

The osteopath was lovely, as usual, she just effortlessly rearranges all our bones and ligaments into the right places.  My shoulder feels a lot better.  I wrapped the masks and put them in the bin when we got back, clothes straight into the washing machine and humans into the shower.  I do worry about how much litter is going into landfill at the moment; I'm throwing a lot more away than I normally would.  But it's hard to know what else to do with it.  Son's predicted vaccination date has moved forward a little, which is good, and while we were at the osteopath they got a call from the hospital as they had some vaccines left over and they were calling around healthcare providers to see if anyone was free to go up and get their first shot.  The vaccine programme does seem to be rolling out well compared to everything else they've done.  Israel's is impressive, they've vaccinated huge numbers of people very quickly.  I do feel that there's a light at the end of the tunnel now and that's a nice thing to have.  I think that's been missing for a while now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on February 02, 2021, 04:13:34 AM

Full body condoms covering every mucus membrane.

Be safe people.

Lol, Posh, I did look at the machines they use to wrap Christmas trees and wonder if they could change net for cling wrap and just wrap people up when they go out :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on February 06, 2021, 02:56:27 AM
Corona "oiling the wheels of violence" - David Jamieson

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/05/covid-school-closures-job-losses-uk-social-unrest-david-jamieson

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 15, 2021, 12:03:31 PM
Hi everyone,

I've noticed lately among my fascinating 3-D friends that quite a few are nearly imploding right now. Some of it, I think, is because of the ever-extending stress of continuing quarantine and/or restrictions -- personal, ritual, familial, cultural, traditional, whatev.

In some ways the early quarantine, however sad and scary in the aggregate, was stimulating of good solitude or relaxation in more time to rest, even comforting in ways. (Or was to me.) And when it was most intense, nature was wonderfully compensating with animals in cities and much cleaner air. So we all did a year of that. Enjoyed what we could, changed our lives and tested our limits.

THEN we find out that a year was an arbitrary idea. Vaccines are coming so slowly, the government is upside down, new variants threaten, people keep suffering and dying, and there's no magic rescue ship. Only some leaky dinghies being rowed in our directions by very, very old sailors. And if we want in the dinghies, we have to understand we'll all be bailing indefinitely.

I've noticed everything IRL from personality changes to fights to crises to tears to illness to....on and on. It's as though the herd is under sustained stress and nearly fracturing at times. Some of the kind cows who never kick have turned mad. Some are lying down. Some won't eat. Some eat everything in sight. (That would be me.)

I'm shrinking my world even more and trying some really deliberate things to stay connected to others. I don't LIKE Zoom. For all I know doing too much one day contributed to a TIA. But if I do one SOMETHING a day (one Zoom or one good phone convo), and then most Sunday mornings attend an online UU service (this means just letting it play while I'm in PJs and reading something else during boring bits), I can hang on to an expectation that I WILL be in 3-D community again. I am entirely convinced that my sanity and future happiness depend on that, given how I'm made.

This is just a really strange and stressful chapter and I can't imagine it isn't destabilizing to everyone I know in one way or another. I'm trying to tell people I know how much I respect what they're doing, how they're managing. Even telling myself that a bit more often. Thank god for Zoom therapy, too.

Love y'all. The world is hard and weird. The world is wonderful. Nature gives us everything and nature is Honey Badger, who don't give a f**k. Oh, paradox.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on February 15, 2021, 12:40:14 PM
It's like that here as well, Hopsie.  Everyone's shattered and unsure.  Even our ultra zen, endlessly meditating, unflappable acupuncturist friend said he's struggling with it.  I think for the same reasons you mention - we've had a year of terribly bad management, blatant profiteering, endlessly changing information and there's still no end in sight.  The vaccination programme here is going pretty well but as everyone knows it isn't a miracle cure, being able to mingle freely sans masks and with close physical contact is still a long way off.  I don't think anyone imagined this time last year it would all still be causing so much damage (in fact this time last year I hadn't even heard of it).  Well done for trying to do a one contact a day approach.  It does help to have some sort of routine or aim, whatever it may be.  Numbers are coming down here, finally, but after six weeks of lockdown it concerns me that they're still as high as they are.  I think a lot more people are breaking lockdown this time because everyone's just so sick of it all.  We can only hang on tight and wait for it to end, I think :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 15, 2021, 12:45:25 PM
I hear that, ((((Tupp)))).

I think in a way people have been so fiercely (and necessarily, given human deviations) fixated on physical health/survival, that mental health/survival have gotten less and belated attention.

I'm interested in the mental health and community transformation aspects of this awful time....hope I'm around to find out if humanity managed to find enough cooperative kindness and community ingenuity to come through as your country did the Blitz. Or if nihilism won. For individuals, of course, it'll be individual....

I like controlled optimism so I'm going with the Blitz. (Strong arguments could be made for either but as with elections, one has to win eventually!)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 17, 2021, 10:28:57 AM
A friend texted me a link to vaccine appts today and I got one for this afternoon. Very higgledy-piggledy process but I'm grateful. I got the link to my neighbors so hope they get appts too.

(I had signed up to be notified by email but hadn't heard anything. No idea how this exactly came to be but it's a gift horse, so, nice teeth.)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on February 17, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Is it the 1 or 2 dose vaccine, Hops?
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 17, 2021, 07:51:28 PM
The Pfizer, two-dose. Next jab in 3 weeks.

We (couple hundred people I think) stood in line outside for four hours before getting into the FEMA building. Lucky for me they had some folding chairs to lend. After a couple hours I really needed to sit (back stuff).

Amazingly, my close friend who had sent me the link by text that got me the appt. turned out to be right behind me in line, so we had hours together to catch up! M said the whole thing got triggered by an unplanned social media share of a signup link for a subgroup, so part of the reason we had to wait so long was they had to thaw it out! Hilarious.

Pretty uncomfortable day but I was lucky. Go back in 3 wks for jab #2.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 17, 2021, 08:30:33 PM
Coulda put this on the Hax thread but it really applies more on this one. This is by a commenter on her recent column about "vaccine resentments." (Like the cockup in my town today when way too many people showed up because of the mistakenly social media-spread invite that went beyond the intended group they had enough doses for.) Most posters are venting nonstop about the government's / bureaucrats' mistakes or failures or mismanagement...etc.

I think three things at the same time:

(1) the vaccine rollout is not as efficient as it could be.

(2) it is impossible to craft a vaccine rollout plan that everybody finds fair. I read a lot of unrealistic expectations for vaccine rollout plans.

In my professional life, I handle distribution of benefits. Some people wait longer than others for a variety of reasons. Somebody has to be first and somebody has to be last. I think because I’ve had experience with the bureaucracy end of resource distribution, I have more sympathy for the people attempting to get this vaccine out. I also have lower patience for people who think they could craft a better plan (hint: it’s a lot harder than you think).

(3) this vaccine development was the result of the hard work and dedication of thousands of people. The fact that a vaccine was developed this fast is amazing. It’s fantastic.

I think we could all use a bit more gratitude that there is a vaccine at all.


Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on February 18, 2021, 05:56:38 AM
That the vaccine distribution was going to be a point of argument and annoyance was obvious from very very early on even before a vaccine had been created. This stuff is predictable like clockwork.

The current media buzz is pointing to more reports of children getting the full-body inflammation problem due to Covid.

We didn't have all out Covid riots but we are seeing insidious mental health issues and dare I say it, forms of what looks like mass hysteria, at least in my opinion.

I'm burnt out on Covid. I'd like to go to the doctor for a check up for other reasons but I'm really quite afraid of going to the doctor right now. As far as I know nobody in my county is getting shots just nursing homes (good)... but the rollout has been a failure. I think it's okay to say so. The US government manages to turn the whole Capitol building campus into a controlled military zone but they can't mobilize immunization tents strategically. As a whole country it's like we are one big bumbling neurotic Uncle Sam.

In my area it's like nothing is happening at all. Even the most patient people are going to get tired of this. I'm just venting I guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on February 18, 2021, 06:57:46 AM
I'm so glad you got your first jab, Hopsie, and will be even gladder when you get your second one :)  Here (UK), I think, from what I have seen, read and heard, that the vaccine rollout has been bloody amazing.  Yes, there have been problems, I can run into problems cooking dinner so to administer millions of vaccines in a way that adheres to safe practices, particularly as the Pfizer one has to be kept at a mind blowingly low temperature, must be full of logistical issues and I think they've been first class here.  I too am eternally grateful that we have science, that all those amazingly clever people have put their boffin like heads together to come up with this (I am reading about the different vacs and how they work on the 'Dear Pandemic' website and it is mind blowing stuff) and I am certainly feeling calmer and more hopeful about the future as more people get it.  Yes, there are issues over who should get it first, I think it's a reminder that we all need one another and we all affect each other.  Millions of people need it and it just isn't possible to vaccinate everyone at the same time.  I'm more anxious about son getting his sooner rather than later but equally we can carry on staying in for as long as necessary and not everyone can do that.

Posh, I understand the burn out feeling.  I think everyone is fed up with it all now, however much we try to look on the bright side and/or just keep going.  We've had health related appointments and people have been very careful with safety protocols and so on.  I don't know how it is where you are but I hope there's some way of checking things that you need to xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on February 18, 2021, 08:57:02 AM
I'm doing better this winter than I did the last - avoiding lethargy, having the inspiration/motivation to start & complete projects, juggling in all the other things I do/have to do. I do have the occasional "do absolutely nothing" day still... but it absolutely HELPS that there isn't anyone here just doing so I don't have to, or doing things "for me". I guess I'm that much of a contrarian that I'm better off having to do for myself on my own, to keep at it. Oh there's the occasional heavy stuff that needs dealt with that I most definitely appreciate help with - or things beyond my ken that I dare not tackle due to ignorance or lack of skill.

And we seem to have come full circle with the issue of massive amounts of un-externally-scheduled time. Hol is finally realizing that she can most definitely keep herself occupied - and pursue a goal at the same time. My little rituals and routines that I used to use, to motivate me - are shifting into different timeframes - so that I don't feel so out of sorts at any change in routine, when it does happen. That feels kinda liberating in a way. I'm playing with it.

I am indulging in some long sleeps; my subconscious seems to require it because things are pretty busy in that realm for me right now. But it's not every day; it's not a depression symptom. Or even a retreat to the void for healing. Healing involves doing things now - the routine ones, the novel ones, the taking a chance ones. My sense of things around here, is that we are beginning to find a new balance through all this time on our hands and lockdown. Hol is actively working on one aspect of her relationship with S that just isn't going to work for her, if allowed to continue or if it doesn't change. She bounces some things off me - but isn't offloading energy about it like she was. Old stuff is also starting to slough off her too. She still has the big one to begin dealing with - but isn't just diving into her maternal frustrations at the moment. And that seems to be OK. She has been working through old hurts; current ones... and naming those for herself. Claiming, understanding, and letting go.

Things between her & I are better than they ever have been. She's stopped trying to take care of me; isn't reverting to any form of child-parent relationship with me; is extending the benefit of the doubt to how things will change when B is part of our little bubble-world... and trying to sort out her own relationship before he gets here. We both kinda see a big potential for friction between them - but it's a wait & see thing. Could be completely wrong.

None of us are interested in getting the vaccine - but the kids likely will because of work requirements. IF work in their occupations comes back. We've been discussing options for what else could be done instead. Better now while we have time to research, explore, decide... seriously ask ourselves about commitment... than in a hurry, because we HAVE TO NOW.

Having all this time is an absolute luxury for me - it chafes Hol sometimes because her connections with her circle of friends has shifted. Some are steady and reiable; others are taking some hits - just due to circumstances, not direct falling out with each other. That's a tough one for her. And she has yet to start making new friends out here. But then, almost all opportunites for social interaction - which are scarce here anyway - have evaporated. Since I can get completely involved in my own mind - and lost even - my needs for that kind of interaction aren't so urgent. LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

And now it looks as though I already have the 10-12 inches of snow that was forecast at the end of the storm - TOMORROW - we could see 2 ft this time. Mud season is going to be epic this year....
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 18, 2021, 04:33:52 PM
Quote
As a whole country it's like we are one big bumbling neurotic Uncle Sam.

It does look that way, Mouse. As I understand it, the cause is primarily due to no centralized planning or control of the rollout. States with vastly varying resources and capabilities were left to figure it out and implement on their own, for too long, with some falling for specious emotional arguments about "freedom." The administration has a huge repair/catch up job on its hands. It'll never be perfect but it could be a whole lot better! As to equity, shades of Katrina....

I still feel some guilt over my random luck in landing a vax appointment. It was due to a complete fluke and inadequate forward-planning (state and federal). As the national vax depot released some more doses, a message went out locally intended for PART of group 1B (because they don't yet have enough doses for all so they were working on signup queue order once the 75+ and frontline workers had been covered--I had signed up the first day), and then some grandson-or-other shared it on social media after he saw an elder use that link for an appointment, and bingo, thousands tried to get in. Once the health district realized the mistake (opening the pop-up site w/o age restrictions) they had to turn away anyone under 65, even if they'd managed to snag an appt slot online.

The health district immediately owned and apologized for the error and have since been predictably pilloried for it (understaffed and underfunded as they are). But I felt badly that someone poorer, less computer-savvy, less healthy, with less social support no doubt missed out on a dose because I had been forwarded that link by a very alert similarly-privileged friend.

I read an ethicist article about this some time ago, and the view came down to, it's not your individual fault if you're offered an opportunity for the vax, and every person who gets vaccinated is helping society survive the pandemic and sooner, so if you do get the chance, take it. You're just one member of the herd. And then help others if there's some way you can be of support. (Like a friend of mine who spends hours standing in the cold directing traffic at vaccination sites when one opens for a time.) The urge to sacrifice your turn is moral but impractical and won't solve anything. So, I took it. ?????

As to vax-deniers, that makes me sad. There's so much mistrust of science and "expertise" and advanced education and lack of recognition of the negative power of uninformed online communities that draw identity and comfort from sharing "secret knowledge" or believing in conspiracies. I worry most about children who have -- and will -- come down with dangerous diseases because a parent won't trust the scientists who have done brilliant, dedicated work for so many years to develop vaccines and further understand immunity. (Though not immunologists, Dorothy Hodgkin and Clara Barton must be spinning in their graves....) It's unfathomable to me that so many still believe in the discredited, debunked vaccines-cause-autism myth that was spread from one sloppy scientist's paper in the Lancet decades ago. That one piece of misinformation fed a whole group of conspiracies with tragic results. Never mind that it was reviewed, found scientifically completely wanting, and even retracted by the journal and subsequently denounced by a huge number of reputable researchers. One "byte" of misinfo went viral (no pun intended) and was enough to infect a culture with ignorance.

Mistakes and evils and greed have happened from the Tuskegee experiments and worse, to all kinds of medical errors and profit-driven strategies ongoingly, but I've never understood the throw-baby-out-with-the-bathwater reaction. As screwed up and unequal as health care here is, we also have extraordinarily dedicated practitioners and researchers, and as a nation have the potential to lead dazzling science and public health. Yet so far we've squandered those hopes to emotion, poor education and unclear, uninformed long-range thinking and planning. And underfunding. Maddening. I wish they'd let Bill and Melinda Gates take it over!

I'm feeling so sad for freezing, dying Texans right now. Wind turbines account for 10% of their winter energy use, yet that misinformation piece is already being churned.

ALL that said, this isn't about my politics, just my sense from observing what people go through on all sides of any aisle, that the answer really is that we need to love and look out for each other. And take every opportunity to do that we're given.

Putting away soap box and I hope anybody who has a different take on any of these opinions understands I'm not insisting I'm right, just explaining what my opinion is and a little about why.

I don't need to be right, or win a debate, or convert or be converted. I have people I love and respect in my life who see the world and similar issues very, very differently. Who have different backgrounds and experiences and identities and politics and have come to different conclusions. I love them no less -- even more, I'd say -- because we've all intentionally found ways to cherish and nurture our friendships in spite of those differences, even when it was difficult. Given the state of things, I recognize that as a precious exception I'm lucky to experience. For that I'm intensely grateful! (As I have been for being informed and changed by some of those differences. When I stop learning or assume I know it all, I'm cooked.)

Thanks for tolerating this "column." If it offends or stirs any negativity, I'll delete.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on February 19, 2021, 03:50:49 AM
I don't think you have any need to feel guilty about getting your jab before someone else, Hops, nor do I think you need to justify it.  It seems that the programme is going well here because the NHS have organised it (ie, medical people) and the politicians kept their beaks out.  We do have variations in how quickly it's happening in certain areas but that's mostly because some areas are more rural and in areas that are very densely populated it's difficult to manage large numbers of people in relatively small spaces when you have to maintain social distancing.  They're very big programmes to manage and there will always be areas where it doesn't work so well.  I'm just glad a vaccine is available and glad that you got your first shot.  The sooner the risk of serious harm to so many reduces the better, however it's achieved, is my view, and we defo don't want you poorly or worse xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on February 19, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
Yeah, I agree with Two on this one, Hops there is no need to get guilty over the shots. The faster they get you out of the way the quicker they can get to other people (sticking tongue out) I'm half joking there. They just need to get it out to as many people as possible.

Heck, if census workers can go door to door so could immunization givers. Anyhow I'm not going to go on about it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 19, 2021, 02:00:39 PM
Awww, (((((Tupp))))) and (((((Mouse)))).

Thanks, you guys. I think I've finally gotten the guilt back in its bottle and y'all helped.

Interesting thought about door-to-door immunizers, Mouse! Only hitch I can see is that they'd have to be medically trained and carry a kit for (raaaaaaare) allergic reactions. When you do get jabbed, you're made to sit for 15 minute afterward to be sure you're safe.

Once we got in the FEMA building it was very organized. Jab and info-chat with nurse: 5 minutes. Sit-a-bit: 15. (They had you sit in in-order lines and when your wait was up a doc comes straight over: You feeling okay? You're good to go. That was that.

We got a huge, transparent, detailed update from the health district about the big snafu, which I respected. And they got 1200 more people vaccinated that day in spite of the confusion. I felt badly for those turned away for no fault of their own, but appreciated how it was handled.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on February 22, 2021, 12:18:05 PM
Well, it feels like there's a light at the end of the tunnel just now.  Local numbers are low, and much lower than the national average.  My only concern about that is that they'll jump up again when everyone comes for their holidays but we tend to avoid the crowds during the holidays anyway so it should be manageable.  It was beautiful today, really warm and sunny and I went to the supermarket during daylight hours for the first time in almost a year.  It was quiet, everyone is taking care to keep their distance and everyone was wearing a mask.  I do wonder if people being compliant in this area is part of the reason the numbers are lower here.  It would be nice to think that's the case.  The government have announced that unpaid carers will be in Priority Group 6, which is the same group my son's in.  I checked with the doc and they are working through Group 6 at the moment so we should get a date through fairly soon.  I got chatting to a lady when I was walking last week who's volunteering with the vaccine programme and she reckons they're doing 800 - 1000 a day just in her location, which is an amazing number.  Just shows how well things work if you let the experts sort them out and politicians don't get involved.  I've got taxi money put to one side so whatever time we get allocated and however short notice it is, we can get there.

Lord Waffle Chops is announcing/has announced a slow release from lockdown, starting next month.  Schools back first, then shops, then hairdressers, gyms etc and so on.  No overseas holidays until May at the earliest (which is good, I think - keeps the risk lower and gives local businesses a much needed boost).  Cinemas probably open again around May but he has made it clear that they'll reintroduce restrictions if needed and people will still need masks/distance etc for the foreseeable future.  Sounds quite sensible and hopefully we won't see another winter like the one we just went through.

That's all!  Looking a bit better for now, at least.  We're planning a beach walk for this Wednesday and hopefully we can do that once a week for the foreseeable future.  Will be lovely if the weather's nice.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on February 22, 2021, 02:03:08 PM
Yes to going out into nature.  I 💘 thinking of you walking on the beach, Tupp. 

Congrats on getting your vaccine so soon, Hops.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 22, 2021, 06:11:37 PM
Quote
everyone is taking care to keep their distance and everyone was wearing a mask.  I do wonder if people being compliant in this area is part of the reason the numbers are lower here.

It sounds like EXACTLY the reason.

So glad to hear a note of optimism creeping in, (((Tupp))) and hope you soon get the call about your jab.

Either way there WILL BE spring, and sun, and excursions, damn the torpedos! You have endured...in an extraordinary way. Bravo, you.

hugs
Hops

PS Thanks, Lighter. It was a fluke. And I'm grateful.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on February 24, 2021, 02:24:40 AM
It would be good if mask + distance was playing a key role, Hopsie, it just makes me feel like there is 'something' I can do to help keep us safer.   I was reading this morning that it does appear the vaccines might be reducing transmission as well - it's not certain yet and more time/research is needed, but that will also be a huge blessing.  Another parent I know who is in the same situation as us is getting her jab this week so I'm hoping our invite will be coming through soon as well.  Beach trip has been postponed due to rain but we'll go tomorrow instead.  Local cinema has released their re-opening date - still a couple of months away but son's face when I told him was a picture.  The days are getting longer, buds are on the trees, flowers starting to come up.  Slowly starting to look like 'normal' life is on the cards again.  What a relief.  Son's birthday is next week :)  I've ordered loads of decorations for the house and purchased gadgets for him to do tech wizardry on.  Bought him a nice card; he's having a think about what sort of food he'd like to order in.  Current plan is breakfast, presents, party games, lunch, film afternoon with snacks and take away dinner.  Bit of a walk at some point in that just for fresh air.  Hoping it will only be the one lockdown birthday for him.  Three options to bid on with housing this week; no idea how much chance we have as it depends on who else bids but I've put our bids in anyway.  Really hoping the worst of this is behind us now.  This time last year I didn't even know Covid was happening.  What an odd time it's been.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on February 26, 2021, 04:32:57 PM
The movie, gadgets and flower buds sound great.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on February 28, 2021, 10:38:14 AM
The movie, gadgets and flower buds sound great.

They are great, Posh, I think we all need more of them :)

I nearly got my vaccine!  Was very excited when the letter arrived but when I went to book up the group they've put me in are all being vaccinated at a centre thirty miles away.  That's a sixty mile round trip, without a car, when there's a centre in town doing vaccines that I can get to via a ten minute bus ride.  Lol, I've emailed the doc to see if they can change my group so hopefully it won't be too much longer anyway but I was the most excited I've been in ages!
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on February 28, 2021, 12:26:54 PM
My heart hopes with yours, Tupp!

"Vaccine bragging" is really demoralizing for many here who're still struggling to get an appt through our decentralized mess. It's getting better and moving faster, though. Fairly amazing given the circumstances.

I'm so glad for you that light's shining through an open window! Hang in....

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 02, 2021, 04:07:16 AM
I know, Hopsie, there are people grumbling here about who gets what and when, but it's just such a big operation.  They've vaccinated the first five priority groups here now, they're working through group six (there are ten priority groups and then it's the general population and they'll just work through that as and when, I think).  It is hard; people's situations are different and I think a lot of people just want to feel safer again now - maybe more so now there is a vaccine so whether they feel they're less likely to die or less likely to need time off work I guess a lot of people want to get on with it.

But - I've got my appointment through, it's tomorrow, at the local leisure centre so I can leave son here, jump on the bus, whizz in and jump on the bus to get back home as well.  He'll be alright here for an hour and in some ways it's easier for me to get mine first - I can explain to him exactly how it is, I'll know exactly where to go when it's his turn and if I do get any side effects I'll have a better idea of what he might experience so I think that's worked out well (although I will be turning cartwheels when he gets his, truth be told).  Phew.  Does actually feel like the end is in sight now.  I'll let you know how it goes! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 02, 2021, 01:21:24 PM
Woo-HOO!

Happyjab, happyjab, happyjab!

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 04, 2021, 05:06:42 AM
Jab done!  It was amazingly well organised and much of it was being done by volunteers which was so nice to see - most of my contact with the outside world has been people telling me I'm an idiot for thinking it's real or telling me that old people should just die so it was nice to see there are a lot of people doing something to help instead of talking about other things.  Very reassuring.  Son stayed at home; it was good to go alone because now I know exactly how it works I can focus on him when I take him rather than worrying about where to go next so that was a help.  I did see something very sad on the way there and that was a funeral team bringing a body out of a house.  I've never actually seen something like that before and it was an odd moment - I know it happens every day but I've never actually seen it happen and I didn't quite know what I should do.  I was looking at what was going on before I realised what was going on, if you see what I mean, and I felt I'd been a bit intrusive.  Didn't mean to be, it just took my brain a few seconds to work out what I was actually seeing.  Poor people, it's all very sad.  Was just a bit sobering.  But jab all done, no side effects or problems at all (which bodes well for son; we tend to react to the flu shot in the same way so I'm hoping this will be the same).  Just got to wait for his date to come through now.  It was nice to walk through town and to feel there is a time coming when we can walk about without worrying about keeping a distance or wearing a mask.  Lots of spring flowers coming up.  Let's hope this year ends a lot better than last year did xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 04, 2021, 07:56:13 AM
So glad you're jabbed, Tupp, and ready to guide son through his without worries. What a relief.

It is sad about the cycle of life but spring is a good time to go, imo. I can't grasp criticizing yourself for happening to be passing by as a body was brought out. You may have felt some shock but surely to stand respectfully by could offend noone. Tried to think what I'd do differently...nothing. (I actually think it's good for death to be witnessed by caring community, not sanitized and tidied away in a rush before we put makeup and clothes on dead people and pour too many resources into a ceremony. But I'm an old grump with Puritan roots. Give me some lovely singing and a plain wooden box--and then an excellent party.)

I think I'll have a mask dangling from one ear for a long time, and I don't mind.
There's so much more they have to figure out about how protected others are from the vaccinated (they still don't know if it's possible to asymptomatically infect others after vaccination, or what the variants will be up to). As long as we're not at herd immunity (fat chance here, with governors in two of the worst-hit states lifting all restrictions for political gain) and everybody's not yet vaccinated I think I'll just keep wearing one. A few weeks after Jab 2, I'll switch back to the lightweight ones. That'll feel like a fair compromise as I find it hard to breathe with the N95 on.

There will be good histories written of this pandemic, but I think it'll end with a whimper, not a bang. Nobody's going to forget this in our lifetimes or the next. And though much that is joyful will return to community life, I do believe there'll be a new normal. Including masks in crowds and public areas. In Asia it's been routine forever, because they're driven by community over individual values (too far, imo, but in this instance, much more sane).

Anyhow, I'm not watching numbers any more and do feel anticipation over the simplest joy in life here: going down to the pedestrian, cafe-covered downtown main area again, to sip a wine or beer or eat and enjoy the people/dogs parade. A friend and I did that the other day in unexpected warmth and it was so wonderful. Our server shared his story of holding on to his job, and several of my favorite local cafes/restaurants did survive. It must've been very hard but I was so glad to see them open. I hope people who work for tips are treated more generously forever.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 04, 2021, 05:59:10 PM
Got this from a kind friend in New Zealand. I like him and his perspective:

This seems like the weirdest start to a year in a long time.

In our earthquake sequence years the phrase " new normal" became popular. It summarised that fact that we had gone through a massive event and that the world for us would be thought of in pre EQ and post EQ terms.

In some ways, even 10 years down the track, EQ-related changes are still playing out. Our city continues to slowly evolve due to delayed rebuilding, individuals and families frequently live in different parts of the city, teens of the time suffer increased prevalence of anxiety, post EQ some businesses boomed and others faltered. In other words, a crisis usually takes much longer to play out than you think, and sometimes the responses to the events are the actual crisis.

I'm thinking CV19 is like a very slow earthquake sequence with a much wider reach.  The implications will be with us for a long long time.

Our second grandchild is due imminently.

Our daughter, carrying him, was born pre-internet.  She has lived through that (ongoing) change.

Our twins, 10 years younger than R., were born into an internet-shaped world; but they'll experience a pre- and a post- Covid world. Our grand-daughter, aged 4, will have dim memories of lockdown and Covid.  But our grandson will only know a post-Covid world.

I think I see in all that our resilience as individuals and people. Change comes, we adapt.

The trick is in the midst of the clamour and drama ( who knew " doom-scrolling" would be a word?) to maintain our equilibrium, our poise, to reach out when we need help and to savor the moment with our loved and close ones.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 08, 2021, 01:51:08 AM
All very true, Hopsie.  I hope the new grandbaby arrives soon :)

Restrictions are easing a little here from today.  Kids are back to school (younger ones, I think older students are continuing to work from home for a while).  Outdoor picnics with one person from another household are allowed - I don't think we'll meet up with anyone but it will be nice to take a packed lunch to the beach if it's sunny and just sit for a while.  Care home visits are allowed, lots of safety measures in place but I really hope that will help all those poor people who've been unable to see one another for so long.  I think they're reviewing again at the end of March.  Does feel like the end is in sight.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 08, 2021, 10:10:10 AM
Well, it's not over yet.  :(

Friday's sales report from the shop came with the news that only 8 of 23 people showed on Friday and that the VP who refused to wear a mask at work visited personally with everyone in their normal, separated spaces... has been hospitalized with CV. The shop foreman is also positive. Saleswomen had to work in shipping to get orders out due to abscences there.

Yes, mama-boss will be checking in today for the latest news. This is in a state that is still enforcing some rigorous shutdowns. In my state, the cases are dropping dramatically - while across the mountain they're still dealing with 10% positive test results resulting in new cases. Not all of those are severe however. I get that.

But the most vulnerable are still dying from this. I'm going with "guarded optimism" for right now and not changing what I've been doing for the time being.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 08, 2021, 10:33:43 AM
Oh, Skep, is that 8 out of 23 because everyone else is sick?  Or isolating, which I guess amounts to almost the same thing.  I hope whoever has it that none of them are too seriously unwell with it.  It's such a difficult one to deal with, it just seems to be so easy to catch.  I hope there is more positive news coming.  I think you're right not to change your approach; we're still going to be staying home as much as possible and taking precautions if we do go out but I have to say it was nice to see the kids walking past on their way to school this morning.  We can all only keep our fingers crossed; I do hope you get some better news soon xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 08, 2021, 11:41:40 AM
Quote
the VP who refused to wear a mask at work

God, I'm sorry. Weaponized ignorance can kill oneself and others.

This is really tragic. When scientific, public health measures first were manipulated into politics, rather than being explained as right and rational responses to a natural disaster, so many death notices were signed.

Makes me sick at heart. I hope most of your employees will remain well, and their families. I can't imagine how you must be feeling about that VP. I know you'd never be cruel enough to ask: Was his "independent thinking" worth the price?

Right now, I would be. We don't need to lose our adventurous, entrepreneurial, aspirational national spirit. But we sure as hell need a little of New Zealand and Japan in us. America is in the last destructive throes of its wild adolescence. We're just not mature as a nation and it's breaking us in pieces. Not so exceptional after all.

We once were. I hope we might be again. But our collective experience is not going to turn into collective wisdom in our lifetime, if ever, and that's a very sad thing.

hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 09, 2021, 03:51:39 PM
Tupp the breakdown goes like this:

2 80-somethings; bookkeeper just had her second vaccine. No reaction. Other one sent home for a week to keep him safe while everything else sorted out.

In the 50-65 category - one with a history of health issues sent home for a few days; and to get tested to be sure. Both shipping personnel out for a few days getting tested. Negatives. Two home sick; mild cases. One home sicker than she's ever been - but not considered "severe" enough for hospitalization. One out positive - and her sister is sick.
Guy in charge didn't sound good when I talked to him; his test results come in on Wednesday. The VP is in this category too. So far, his O2 is good - and he's been on oxygen a bit to stave off pneumonia; so far 2 doses of Remsdesvir - however it's spelled.

So, masking & distance isn't foolproof at stopping an infection. Handwashing likely helps a LOT. And it's not political to try to protect yourself/others during a pandemic - despite the clear attempt to make it political. Not entirely sure just what basis there is to claim this is restricting people's freedom -- the shutdown of certain businesses & schools seems a better candidate for that. But I totally get the logic behind closing the schools! Even though my campus had dedicated janitorial staff - we took it upon ourselves to go the extra step and clean door handles, phones, desks & keyboards ourselves AGAIN during flu season.

As for my VP, he's never been my favorite person. He is, however, very qualified and good with the people side of the business. So I find his irresponsibility for the crew puzzling, to say the least. Even if he was skeptical of any benefit to masking, it was a risky choice - one the huge unknowns is still why some people are hit are much harder than others. It seems irrespective of underlying issues and age - except statistically.

Hol said I should've mandated masks. But that's not my way; I assumed that people would do whatever they were comfortable with in a responsible fashion without being told they had to. Fortunately, I haven't been forced to alter the health insurance benefit very much. He's just learned a very expensive lesson. My fingers are crossed that guy in charge is negative and that it's just the cumulative gloom and widespread economic slowdown, that's got him down.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 14, 2021, 01:26:56 AM
Gosh, Skep, that sounds like a lot of juggling and balls to keep in the air.  I hope everyone recovers and isn't left too badly affected by their own experience of it, it just sounds like such a variable virus that does little to some and a lot to others.  They have said here all along that masks etc aren't foolproof and I've heard of people who've taken all necessary precautions and still caught it.  It seems to be a slippery little bugger to deal with.  I don't know if your laws are similar to ours but here, even with emergency laws rushed through Parliament and the law being you must wear a mask unless exempt, there's no legal obligation to prove exemption and you can't be forced to wear one in any practical sense.  I only mention it because I doubt that you mandating masks would have made any actual physical difference to anyone who didn't want to, for whatever reason.  What could you have done to enforce it?  You can't physically pin someone down and glue it to their face, and you wouldn't want to sack the guy when he's good at his job.  Hindsight's easy so I hope you're not whirring that round in your head.  I confess to not having a business head on my shoulders so I'm not fully understanding of the various things you've had to deal with in regard to it, but you've sounded to me like you've 'done a Skep' on it and burrowed through a whole load of problems with the best outcomes for the staff in mind.  There aren't many bosses that would do that (especially with the farm and the Buck situation to deal with as well).  So I hope you're giving yourself a good pat on the back and I hope everyone there recovers soon xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 14, 2021, 09:31:08 AM
Thanks Tupp - as usual, you've hit the nail on the head about the virus/masks quandary. Succinctly, too. I still don't have an opinion about "what's right" one way or the other - just my own personal choice, and even that can vary on different days, in different circumstances.

I think everyone would've been better off if just the basic "verified known facts" about the virus had been published broadly & loudly, and then let people make their own decisions. Yes, the public health policy should've RECOMMENDED best practices. But this became a political issue, in this country -- and that's just infuriating to me. The two schools of thought seemed to break down into: the gov't can't/shouldn't force people to do anything... versus those who accused the non-mask wearers of wanting people to die. Then, there was a ton of encouragement to choose a side.

Which is when I decided it was time to walk away from that false dichotomy and make my own rules. Dualities usually are insufficient to address all the issues - just like black & white thinking. No, I wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on by mandating that employees (who never interact face to face with the public in the course of their work) must wear masks. I left it to each person to choose what they were comfortable with. Some who wore masks got sick too.

It's that variability in who the virus affects and the physical impact severity variance that makes my head hurt, when trying to think about "what we know" about the virus. To date, the absolute facts that can be proven as common to all cases, just ISN'T THERE. Even the docs who've treated people through the worst of the surges in localities, are saying this. So until the "key" or "pattern" is discovered about it, I operate on the premise that almost everything we know or think we know, could be true. It COULD become a seasonal bug, just like flu; but no one will KNOW, until it happens.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 14, 2021, 11:19:12 AM
Exactly the same thing happened here, Skep - lockdowns, masks, distancing and so on are either seen as draconian and another step toward a police state or seen as a civic duty that all should adhere to without question or exception.  Very all or nothing, and depending on which side of the fence you sit you're either a sheep or a psychopath.  We took more precautions than we were told to because I felt, based on what I'd read, that the best thing for us was to just avoid catching it and not take a chance on how ill it may or may not make either one of us.  But not earning money, seeing people, having physical contact and so on has done just as much damage as the virus itself, plus there have been many who died because they couldn't get treatments or surgery they needed for other things.  I agree there still doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on all the different aspects so we'll just keep trying to avoid catching it, which for us we can do by staying home as much as possible.  But my friend called me earlier; it's Mothering Sunday here and she met her daughter at her mum's grave and they had a big, and currently prohibited hug for the first time in a year while they both cried.  My friend now feels guilty because she and her hubby are at risk and she's been very stringent about all the precautions but we're all only human and that hug was very necessary.  I think we've all just got to keep muddling through as best we can and yes, as you say, this could flare up every winter just like flu does and could continue to cause problems so we're all going to have to find a way to keep plodding on, preferably without the media pointing big sticks at people and whipping up rows all the time xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 14, 2021, 01:07:26 PM
Quote
But not earning money, seeing people, having physical contact and so on has done just as much damage as the virus itself

I agree it's done a lot of emotional/psychological/mental health PLUS employment/security/care access/economy damage, and in some cases those forms of damage have led to death. Despair and loneliness can kill too.

Yet since more half a million have died of it directly here (and the toll's still climbing), and by all accounts it's a horrible, painful death by slow drowning, and it has burnt out a generation of health providers, first responders and more....I can't equalize all the forms of damage. Dead is as damaged as one can get and the same is true for those we carry it to (if one's among the 40% of asymptomatic carriers).

I believe that if we'd behaved like people unafraid to work together for the common good, we'd all have had masks on pronto if we'd been educated skillfully from the get-go, even though masking's an unfamiliar practice. All sorts of failure and lack of preparedness and dominant political manipulation contributed to the mess that's been made. As did our national hyper-independent cowboy character, which some confuse with freedom. Saying "no" can be wise and principled. So can saying "yes."

All that said, I have to remember that whether or not someone's attached to a different ideology than mine, my primary practice is (ideally) love. For me the mask expresses love of humanity plus belief in interdependence. And it has also protected me. But masks, no matter how diligent one is, do not provide perfect protection because gaps/leaks, etc. For that you'd need scuba gear, probably.

In the end I am so profoundly grateful for scientists and public servants at every level who've worked incredibly hard to try to save us from ourselves, as well as from the pandemic. The suspicion and disrespect aimed at some pretty selfless experts (and even bureaucrats) are for me, very sad to see.

America is, in comparison to Europe, a juvenile country. We've seldom shown it more, except for our long history of using violence to "solve" so many things that don't need force, but education, cooperation and compassion.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 14, 2021, 01:28:22 PM
I agree, Hopsie, the sensible thing would have been to close the airports everywhere to stop it spreading like it did and for a lot of preventative steps to have been taken.  Sadly, it comes under the same bracket as it being sensible not to allow businesses to destroy the environment, not to leave people living in the streets, not to deny people healthcare, create wars, sell weapons to countries and then complain that the people they're being used on seek refuge somewhere else and all the other mad, destructive practices that happen.  I do think it will take longer to see the fall out from the damage caused by all the lockdowns, though - the impact on mental health likely won't make itself apparent immediately and will take longer to assess along with the the overall effects on health that low incomes, unemployment, homelessness and so on have, all of which it seems (here anyway) are only starting to show now as steps have been taken to prevent things like evictions at the moment.  Once the gloves come off I think that's going to get a lot worse - plus we'll be seeing, I would assume, more huge cuts to public sector services and staff shortages as the government claw back the money that it's all cost and staff leave because they've been treated so badly (plus all the overseas staff who are already choosing to work elsewhere because of Brexit) and I do think long term we'll see more damage from the way it's been handled than we have from the virus directly.  They spent so much time posturing and being 'manly' about it that, whatever they did, that genie was out of the bottle and no way forward was going to be anything other than a nightmare to deal with.  I think a big part of the problem here has been the number of times they backtracked as well - they insisted for months that there was no reason to wear a mask and then mandated it.  So many mixed messages.  They've really made such a pigs ear of it.  I am also very grateful for the science and all of the people who've worked through it and helped one another out.  It's been a truly terrible situation for so many and I know I will be so happy once it really is behind us and things get back to some sort of normal xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 14, 2021, 09:26:52 PM
That's what I call PERSPECTIVE.

Outstanding, eloquent and rational rant, CB! You have a way of seeing right through to the cognitive dissonance. This part was especially striking to me:

Quote
In that disease, science said most people were safe, but people believed what they wanted to. Now, science is saying we are not safe, but people still believe what they want to.

The rapid devolution of reason and community is really shocking:
From post-9/11 adaptations:
Quote
Everybody just takes their shoes off as they go through the security line.

To present chaos and crumbling:
Quote
Might just turn out to be the downward spiral of a culture.

You are as clear and cogent as Heather Cox Richardson. I have SO appreciated you turning me on to her. Sad as the facts are and the perspective may be, it does ring clear.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 14, 2021, 09:33:16 PM
You are that perceptive too, Tupp:

Quote
[about what's sensible]: Sadly, it comes under the same bracket as it being sensible not to allow businesses to destroy the environment, not to leave people living in the streets, not to deny people healthcare, create wars, sell weapons to countries and then complain that the people they're being used on seek refuge somewhere else and all the other mad, destructive practices

It's just SO clear that it was cultural/psychological, and not strategic:

Quote
They spent so much time posturing and being 'manly' about it that, whatever they did, that genie was out of the bottle and no way forward was going to be anything other than a nightmare

I think that coarsening of character really is what's wrong. Older ideas and mores may have been conventional (and racist, sexist, colonialist, etc.) but in terms of community -- WWII really did show the courage and grit of ordinary people and they DID band together. Losing that sense of communal obligation and affinity (which I personally believe we lost to entertainment replacing education)...was a slow bleed and now we're waking up to how pale and weak we (Western culture) have become.

Sounds grim and there's hope anyway. But I'm going to have to start digging beyond the click bait for that. If only they'd report the quiet heroes as much as the palaver.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 17, 2021, 04:47:09 AM
Oh gosh, CB, yes, nodding all the way through.  The situation here is very similar and it is so odd that people readily accept certain restrictions as part of their day to day lives (we all drive on the same side of the road, to minimise accidents, we have speed restrictions and traffic lights for the same reason, your car has to meet a certain standard for you to take it on the road, you have to take a test to show you can drive it safely, and so on).  Yet similar measures to try to contain the spread of the virus have been declared human rights abuses and people have protested in the streets about it.  It is very odd that people (and I include myself in this!) can see similar situations in different ways.

I have also been told that if I'm worried about the virus I can just stay home and everyone else can carry on as they wish.  It slightly baffles me that anyone thinks another person can simply not leave their home for a couple of years or have any kind of human contact and still keep themselves fit and healthy?  What about, as a bare minimum, grocery supplies, medical appointments, fresh air, exercise, daily activity to keep the mind healthy, work?!  A lot of people in the UK seem to be oblivious to the fact that a lot of at risk people are employed and have mortgages to pay, and that many work in the voluntary sector, which we depend on very heavily due to a lack of funding for public sector services.  It's very odd, as you say.  We've had a similar thing with the ICU beds - the government made a big deal out of opening these huge temporary hospitals that can house thousands, but neglected to tell anyone that there weren't any staff!  And you can't just plug a person in a coma into a machine and leave them to it, which is something else that didn't seem to filter through to well.  Sigh.  Yes, nodding, and I think it will be a case of hindsight making more sense of it all (although I'm sure there will be claims that history has been rewritten to fill a certain agenda lol ;) ).

Hopsie, I think what you said about entertainment replacing education is spot on.  I think information going out so quickly now is a problem as well, particularly when so much of it is quite poor quality (not evidence based, not contextualised etc).  And there's so much of it.  Difficult to wade your way through the various news outlets and decide which one is giving you the best info.  And yes, that coarsening of character.  I felt really comforted by the volunteers at the vaccine centre; so many people giving up their time to get that done and it's so organised, so efficient.  There have been many unsung heroes, as there are in so many things, and I do hope there comes a point where all those ordinary people can be celebrated in some way.  I do think there's a media focus on the drama of it all and it's easy to lose focus on the good people doing good things (I know I do).  I'm very grateful I've got you guys, that much I do know :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 21, 2021, 02:15:58 AM
I got a heart-lift from the volunteers too, Tupp. And they also seemed very happy. It would feel so good to be part of a team doing something that's pure positivity. So many people were so thankful and relieved and the nurses and docs and helpers were all so friendly and patient as the long line wound through.

I saw a news item that Yo Yo Ma took his cello to his vaccine place, got his shot, and then during the 15-30 minutes people wait after the shot to be checked, he sat over by the wall and took out the cello and played. Everyone got so quiet, in such a peaceful way together.... He is magic.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 21, 2021, 03:14:40 AM
I got a heart-lift from the volunteers too, Tupp. And they also seemed very happy. It would feel so good to be part of a team doing something that's pure positivity. So many people were so thankful and relieved and the nurses and docs and helpers were all so friendly and patient as the long line wound through.

I saw a news item that Yo Yo Ma took his cello to his vaccine place, got his shot, and then during the 15-30 minutes people wait after the shot to be checked, he sat over by the wall and took out the cello and played. Everyone got so quiet, in such a peaceful way together.... He is magic.

hugs
Hops

Oh, Hopsie, that sounds amazing!  I could have offered to sing - that would have cleared the room quickly ;) lol.  I do think the media have played a very negative role in all of this by failing to provide well contextualised, fact based information and focusing so much on negative examples of what's been going on.  Good quality reporting is hard to come by here and it's really shown itself here over the last year.  Everyone I've spoken to personally is just getting on with it - difficult situations for everyone but people are doing what they can to help.  But when I read the news or scan through social media, every negative event is magnified so it feels like everything is bad.  Yet lots of people are working hard, pulling together and, more importantly, staying home, wearing a mask in the shop and so on, just not putting extra pressure on services.  Perhaps we all need to learn to play the cello and be more Yo Yo Ma :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on March 21, 2021, 09:30:01 AM
I agree about the massive negativity cycle in the news media Tupp. I'd really like to ask them who they think they're helping - or why they're pushing such negative crap all the time - what's in it for them, that people are mostly turning them off; not reading the news anymore; tuning out...

and finding that life without the media is MUCH more pleasant, and kind, and full of good people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 21, 2021, 11:39:44 AM
I agree about the massive negativity cycle in the news media Tupp. I'd really like to ask them who they think they're helping - or why they're pushing such negative crap all the time - what's in it for them, that people are mostly turning them off; not reading the news anymore; tuning out...

and finding that life without the media is MUCH more pleasant, and kind, and full of good people.

Yep, same here.  I don't want to pretend nothing awful is happening, but lots of good things have happened through this as well - people have supported one another, parents have done an amazing job unexpectedly home schooling their kids, lots of kids have loved being at home and thrived on the one to one attention.  Businesses have adapted; I know it's going to be a death knell for some but some have thrived, offered home delivery when they never used to, put in hand wash stations and free face masks for people, a lot of people have coped really well.  I wouldn't want it to be a case of pretending that people haven't suffered, of course they have, but a lot of people I've spoken to have all said the same thing - they've focused on what they have got and what they can do and just got on with it.  One of the mums I see on the way to school in the morning (she walks past with her three when I'm out feeding the birds) and she said she's just been so grateful they've got a garden and they're not stuck in a high rise flat with nowhere for the kids to play.  I don't know what they get out of it, either, maybe they get paid more to write negative articles rather than positive ones now?  It does seem odd xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 21, 2021, 12:46:41 PM
I'm seriously considering Amber's news diet for a while. Or just getting what really matters from NPR when driving. Or just waiting for M to tell me about the big political stuff.

Otherwise, I'm soaking my brain in negative, alarming or tragic headlines/articles day after day after day...to what end? What I can do something about locally, I am. And the rest serves either to frighten or depress me or even break my heart.

I CANNOT help/fix/rescue people who themselves (or their problems) are out of my reach (either personally or financially). So why do I start my day with soaking in tragedy?

I've actually turned to those "Restoring Faith in Humanity" or "Dudes Being Bros" or "Acts of Kindness" or animal-rescue videos on YouTube to correct the balance. But now I'm feeling that a more-extreme step might be appropriate. News diet, full tilt.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on March 21, 2021, 02:53:41 PM
And he just got a jab in that bowing arm!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWWzmha1_jE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWWzmha1_jE)

love love love

[especially at the end where you see the folks sitting and their bodies look SO relaxed....}

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on March 31, 2021, 09:52:06 AM
How amazing, Hopsie, he makes it look so effortless as well :)

Well we have good news here.  Deaths in the over 70s have dropped 97% in the last ten weeks.  That is genuinely the best thing I've read in the last year :)  They are easing lockdown restrictions slowly and carefully and have made it clear it will be straight back into lockdown if there's any sign of hospital and/or death rates rising significantly, or if the vaccine programme gets derailed in any way.  I don't think they're going to worry too much about infection rates if the infections don't result in lots more hospital admissions or deaths.  It still seems to be that young, fit and healthy people aren't likely to be seriously affected - it does happen, of course, but on the whole it doesn't seem to be too much of a problem for them, and I'd hope they're taking care to avoid anyone who might still be affected seriously.

We'll still continue to stay home as much as possible, particularly over the upcoming school holidays as it's going to be mobbed here with holiday makers.  But that's okay, I'm happy to let everyone else mingle while we get on with things at home.  Fingers crossed that by September/October time we'll be in a much better place than we were that time last year.  It does feel like there's a light at the end of the tunnel now xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 04, 2021, 08:40:47 AM
I was reading an interesting article earlier; apparently the overall death rate here (deaths from all possible causes) is much lower than usual.  They think we've more or less missed flu season (as everyone's been inside and/or masked and keeping distance) and road traffic fatalaties have been a lot lower (again, because people have had to stay home).  There doesn't seem to have been an increase in cancer deaths despite a lot of people not being able to have treatment but they didn't seem to have an idea why that would be.  They do think that a lot of people who would have died by now from other causes died earlier because they caught Covid (5 - 15% of the total deaths, apparently).  I just think it's so sad that people couldn't die with their loved ones by their side and having spent time with their families before hand.  I know lots of doctors, nurses and care home staff have sat with people but it just isn't the same.  I think that's sad.

Johnson is apparently talking about vaccine passports for large events and public places; I have to say I'm confused about that.  I'm not sure if I've missed something but I thought the vaccines aren't known to prevent transmission?  So I'd assume anyone who's worried about catching it would have the jab and anyone who isn't worried is presumably healthy enough to cope with catching it?  So I don't quite get the need to have it enforced for access to public spaces.  But maybe I've missed some info along the way.  Anyway, overall things are looking better, not out of the woods yet but I think it's looking promising now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 04, 2021, 09:04:03 AM
I'm glad it's looking better over there, Tupp!

We're looking at a 4th surge here, and the variants have just arrived. Fairly scary article about those in the Post today...more unknown than known, although they seem confident that vaccines are protective against some of them. The big danger with the political stupidities is that the virus will keep on mutating the longer people don't take the precautions (vaccinated or not). At some point, a mutation may be impervious to the present vaccines, which could throw us back to square one.

My understanding is that the reason even fully vaccinated people now are asked to continue social distancing and masks is that it's as yet unknown whether, even though you may be mostly safe from contracting it yourself once vaccinated, they don't yet know whether you still might be/become an asymptomatic carrier to someone else.

I'm avoiding all crowds for a lot longer. Look forward to eating at outdoor cafes though, as it warms up.

hugs
Hops
PS I agree about how sad Covid deaths apart from family must be.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on April 04, 2021, 11:15:18 AM
Hol & I laugh about that day of the week problem. What I'm thinking about doing - since this is a permanent state of things for me is to use a 7 day calendar, following weather forecasts, and plan one task a day, each day. Otherwise I'll just drift between total low energy states and bursts of energy.

Yesterday, I finished planting the first seeds to go in the garden. I have two more weeks of comfortable weather to get my dirt back in shape to plant. Then I have some inside work to do too. I took care of some small mending issues; buttons etc.

It's time to get the second guest room switched out and relocate some stuff in the office - so we can actually share.

Hol's gardening friend said this year, the advice on fruit trees is to wait till fall - there is some kind of fungus or some such going around and decimating spring-planted trees. I already have pears that need pruning; will plant a couple apple & peach trees. It doesn't pay for me to devote too much space for these, since my county is full of orchards. And I want nut trees - hazelnuts, almonds.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 04, 2021, 11:58:19 AM
The planning according to the weather thing makes sense, Skep, and I guess in some ways it doesn't always matter what day the calendar says it is?  Just that you make the most of getting things done depending on whether it's dry or not, too cold, too hot and so on.  It feels more natural, I think?

CB, I'm really glad that you're getting your jab!  And how nice that you were finally able to see the little ones :)  So cute, I bet they loved that as well.  It's interesting that you guys are being told you don't transmit the virus if you've been vaccinated, over here they've said all along that it won't stop you catching it or passing it on, just that it will reduce your chances of being seriously ill from it.  It is all very confusing.  It doesn't affect us in a practical way; we don't go to big events anyway and we've both been jabbed so it won't matter to us what they decide to do, I just get puzzled sometimes over how some decisions are made.  Plus I wonder what sort of work would need to go into a scheme like that to actually make it work?  It's a lot of information to process.  I will wait and see what happens :)

I had read about a fourth wave and Hopsie, I do think people not doing the mask and keep apart thing is going to cause problems.  People have been flocking to outdoor spaces here; I think the problem is everyone thinks they'll be the only one there and they'll be careful, but then of course everyone else has the same idea and it's impossible to keep space when it's so busy.  Just using the toilet must be a potential problem.  We're still staying home and being very cautious, we're just lucky that we can xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 04, 2021, 03:15:13 PM
I found this Washington Post article on variants really helpful yesterday. Sometimes people get upset about all the "may be" or "could possibly" or "seem to" kinds of caveats but I respect that language. We don't know what we know until we know it.... (My favorite is named the EEEEEK. Not kidding.) Masks forever? Hugs, Hops
---------------------

Viruses are always mutating and taking on new forms. The coronavirus has thousands of variants that have been identified. But several, including variants first found in the United Kingdom, South Africa and Brazil, are highly transmissible and have sparked concerns that vaccines may be less effective against them.

The same protective measures that have warded off the virus throughout the pandemic — maintaining social distance, wearing masks and washing our hands — are even more critical in the face of more transmissible variants.


The New York variant (B.1.526)
Where and when was it discovered?
This variant, which was found in samples obtained as early as November, probably emerged in the Washington Heights section of New York, Fauci told reporters in March. By the middle of that month, this variant made up nearly half of the city’s new infections.

Where is it now?
Officials have reported this variant in at least 14 other states, including Texas, Wyoming and Maryland, Bloomberg reported.

What makes it different?
Some scientists are concerned that this variant may be more transmissible than previous versions. Scott Gottlieb, former director of the Food and Drug Administration, expressed worry that a mutation on this variant could enable it to reinfect people who have already had the virus.

Will vaccines work?
This variant seems to have some resistance to existing vaccines, although not as much as the variant first detected in South Africa, Fauci said on CBS News’s “Face the Nation.” Gottlieb said he was also concerned that this variant could partly elude the effects of vaccination.

The South Africa variant (B.1.351)
Where and when was it discovered?
This mutation, also referred to as 501Y.V2, was found in South Africa in early October and announced in December, when the country’s health minister said the strain seemed to affect young people more than previous strains. This variant may have contributed to a surge of infections and hospitalizations across South Africa.

Where is it?
This mutation has been identified in at least four dozen countries. On Jan. 28, South Carolina officials announced that this variant had affected two people there with no travel history — the first instances of this strain identified in the United States. It has since been found in more than two dozen other states.

What makes it different?
This mutation shares some similarities to the variant first identified in the U.K. and, like that strain, appears to be more transmissible. There is no evidence that it is more lethal. Gottlieb has suggested that this variant might be more resistant to antibody therapies.

There is some evidence that this variant could allow for reinfection: A man in France was in critical condition in mid-February after being infected with this strain four months after he was previously infected with the virus.

Will vaccines work?
The vaccines may have a diminished impact against this variant, but they probably will still be effective, top infectious-diseases expert Anthony S. Fauci said in January. Moderna has said its vaccine protects against the variant first identified in South Africa, with an important caveat: The vaccine-elicited antibodies were also less effective at neutralizing this mutation in a laboratory dish.

Pfizer and BioNTech released their own study, not yet peer-reviewed, that suggests their vaccine effectively neutralizes this variant, though was slightly less effective.

On Jan. 29, Johnson & Johnson said its single-shot vaccine was robustly effective in a massive global trial, but that its protection against sickness was weaker in South Africa. Biotechnology company Novavax has also indicated that its vaccine was significantly less effective during a trial in South Africa.

In South Africa, the distribution of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine has been halted. The vaccine did not provide sufficient protection against mild and moderate cases caused by a new variant, health officials said.

U.K. variant (B.1.1.7)
Where and when was it discovered?
This variant was first found in the United Kingdom, specifically in London and the nearby county of Kent, in September. It is sometimes referred to as the “Kent” variant. It has been spreading rapidly in Britain, Denmark and Ireland since December.

Where is it?
Dozens of countries, including the United States, have seen infections from this variant of the virus. It is by far the most prevalent variant of concern in the United States, with thousands of cases across the country.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released a model forecast in early January that indicated the variant could become the dominant strain in the United States by some point in March. A recent study showed this variant was spreading rapidly in the United States by early February.

What makes it different?
The variant first identified in the U.K. appears more transmissible than the more common strain. Preliminary data also suggests that this strain may be 30 to 70 percent more lethal than previous mutations.

Will vaccines work?
The scientific consensus is that the vaccines will remain effective against this mutation because those inoculations provoke an array of neutralizing antibodies and other immune-system responses. Biotechnology companies Pfizer, Moderna and Novavax have said their vaccines appear to work against this variant.

Ravindra Gupta, a professor of clinical microbiology at the University of Cambridge, found in a study of older adults that the immune response triggered by the Pfizer vaccine was modestly less effective against the variant first identified in the U.K.

Related:
Virus variant first detected in the U.K. has been deadlier, study confirms

U.K. coronavirus variant spreading rapidly through United States, study finds

Denmark is sequencing all coronavirus samples and has an alarming view of the U.K. variant

CDC warns highly transmissible coronavirus variant to become dominant in U.S.

 3:20
Some experts fear vaccines may be less effective against strains of the coronavirus that were first found in the United Kingdom, South Africa and Brazil.

The ‘Eeek’ mutation (E484K)
Where and when was it discovered?
This might best be described as a mutation within a mutation. It’s called E484K — or “Eeek,” as epidemiologists refer to it — and it’s appearing on some of the variants we describe below. It’s not brand new; it has appeared many times since the start of the pandemic, but experts have been concerned about it. It gained mainstream attention when it started to coincide with other variants that are more contagious.

Where is it?
Eeek has been seen in the variants first discovered in the U.K., South Africa and Brazil. It has also been detected in more than 200 samples of the virus sequenced in the United States since May.

What makes it different?
The Eeek mutation changes the virus’s spike protein, which is what vaccines target. By itself, this mutation does not change the virus significantly. The concern with this mutation is when it’s paired with the other variants, which could help the virus evade detection and make neutralization by the human immune system less efficient.

Will vaccines work?
Scientists are actively trying to answer this question. Clinical trial data have indicated that vaccines were less effective in preventing infections with variants in South Africa featuring the mutation. But the vaccines still dramatically lowered the chance of severe illness or death.

Semi-related to the vaccine question: One study found preliminary evidence that patients in South Africa who had survived an earlier bout with the more common coronavirus were becoming infected a second time — though not severely ill — after exposure to the variant with this mutation.

Related:
Worrisome E484K coronavirus mutation seen in U.K. variant and in some U.S. samples

Brazil variant (P. 1)
Where and when was it discovered?
Sequencing studies found the variant in Brazil, mainly in Rio de Janeiro, as early as July. Researchers in Japan discovered it in travelers from Brazil in January.

Where is it now?
It has been confirmed in more than two dozen countries, including Japan, Spain and New Zealand. On Jan. 25, Minnesota health officials confirmed the first U.S. case of this variant in a resident with recent travel history to Brazil. It has since been found in at least 18 states.

What makes it different?
The variant has more than a dozen alterations, several of which are found on the virus’s spike protein, which binds the virus to a cell. Because of that, researchers think the strain is probably more transmissible. There is also some early evidence that antibodies might not recognize the P.1 variant, which could lead to reinfection.

Will vaccines work?
There’s no strong evidence right now suggesting that vaccines won’t work against the variant first identified in Brazil. However, scientists have raised the possibility that this variant can evade antibodies, which would impact the current vaccines’ effectiveness.

A study of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine published in March determined that it was highly effective at neutralizing the variant found in Brazil. Moderna has announced that it would develop a new vaccine tailored to a similar variant in case an updated shot becomes necessary.

Related:
The Amazonian city that hatched the Brazil variant has been crushed by it

First U.S. case of highly transmissible Brazil coronavirus variant identified in Minnesota


The Denmark/California mutation (L452R)
Where and when was it discovered?
This mutation was detected in Denmark in March.

Where is it now?
A variant with this mutation was found in California this winter and became dominant there over five months, eventually making up more than half of infections in 44 of the state’s 58 counties. This mutation has also been confirmed in several other states.

What makes it different?
There is evidence that this mutation enhances the virus’s ability to bind to human receptor cells, making it more transmissible. Some scientists are urging public-health officials to declare the variant with this mutation circulating in California a “variant of concern,” which would make it the first homegrown variant with this label.

Will vaccines work?
Some scientists think this mutation might make the virus more resistant to vaccines because the mutation is in the spike protein, which enables the virus to attach to cells. But scientists also say that more study is needed before they can draw conclusions.

The original variant (D614G)
Where and when was it discovered?
This mutation, known to scientists simply as “G,” was discovered in China in January 2020. It soon spread through New York City and Europe.

Where is it?
The “G” mutation has become ubiquitous. By July, about 70 percent of the 50,000 genomes of the coronavirus uploaded by researchers worldwide to a shared database carried the variant.

What makes it different?
Some scientists think this mutation is significantly more transmissible than the original strain of the virus. That’s because this variant has four to five times more spikes on its surface. Those spikes enable the virus to latch onto and infect cells. But other scientists still contest the greater transmissibility.

Will vaccines work?
The G variant was the dominant strain when 2020 vaccine trials took place. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines showed a 95 percent efficacy in trials.

Related:

Massive genetic study shows coronavirus mutating and potentially evolving amid rapid U.S. spread

British officials identify coronavirus mutations, but significance remains unclear


How can we protect ourselves from the variants?
The same protective measures that have warded off the virus throughout the pandemic — maintaining social distance, wearing masks and washing our hands — are even more critical in the face of more transmissible variants. Those guidelines will simultaneously keep you from becoming ill from one of those variants, while making it harder for the virus to mutate in the first place.

“Viruses don’t mutate unless they replicate,” Fauci said in January.

But it’s also important for scientists to learn as much as they can about these variants, in case there are specific ways we can slow their spread. Until the research exists, we can’t make assumptions about what new variants will do.

What do the variants mean for vaccines?
“We need to get as many people vaccinated with the current vaccine that we have as we possibly can … and prepare for the potential eventuality that we might have to update this vaccine sometime in the future.” — Fauci in January

As more significant variants are reported, the obvious (and arguably most important) question is whether the vaccines will work on them. Some of the mutations have sparked particular concern because they affect the spikes on the virus, which is what the vaccines target.

In short, the pharmaceutical companies are testing new variants against their vaccines and spinning up new trials. Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech can update their vaccines quickly because of their mRNA technology, which can be reprogrammed to target new variants.

Pfizer and Moderna have run tests on the variants and while the vaccines still triggered a response, they appeared to be less effective.

A growing number of scientists anticipate that we will eventually need something similar to the annual flu shot — companies will periodically update their vaccines to match the prevalent coronavirus variants, and we will need to get boosters to stay protected.

“With flu, we need to adapt the vaccines. We can see that already,” said Ravindra Gupta, a professor of clinical microbiology at the University of Cambridge. “The companies do realize there is a problem in the longer term, and they will deal with it just as we have done with flu every year.”

Related
New coronavirus variants accelerate race to make sure vaccines keep up

WASHINGTON POST
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on April 07, 2021, 12:28:36 AM
An older work friend of mine got her vaccine, other than that it's been sorta slow going. I wish all the sites were drive-thru style. It makes the most sense to me at least. Experts that have many unprotected people filing in and out all day long, well that doesn't seem too bright.

I'm not feeling too optimistic about Covid but that's kinda standard for me, seeing the maggots in the cupcakes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: sKePTiKal on April 08, 2021, 12:11:01 PM
LOLOLOLOL....

that's a new expression to me, Mouse - "maggots in cupcakes" - must be original! I like it!
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on April 08, 2021, 01:46:31 PM
I liked it too.

A lot more colorful than "glass half empty."

:)
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 12, 2021, 08:03:18 AM
I like the maggots in cupcakes as well :)

I've been reading on the 'Dear Pandemic' website, which I find very helpful (they're a group of all female scientists who are very good at explaining what it's all about in easy to read ways, but with links to all the science stuff so that boffins can read the difficult bits :) ).  They were talking about transmission and saying that the possible bump in the road is that, if people still keep catching it and passing it on to others, whether they're vaccinated or not, there's more chance of further mutations.  And apparently the more mutations there are, the greater the chances that the current vaccines won't work against them and then we're back to square one again.  It made more sense to me than some of the other stuff I've read; I think they just contextualise it in a way that I understand more.

Things are opening up again here; non essential shops and services reopened today so we went into town to go to the library.  It was busy but that's to be expected when everything's been shut for so long.  There were long queues outside the barber shops; I'm not the only one with enormous hair!  It was nice to go and get some new books; I picked up one that has ideas for short walks in the area and thought I'd use that as a guide for son and I to venture a bit further afield now.  But we're still going to be very careful; I still think not catching it is the best way to deal with the situation and I'm sticking to that aim for the time being.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 14, 2021, 09:10:51 AM
I thought I'd cut and paste Hopsie's group discussion topic from her 'On A Break' thread and put it here as it was Pandemic related.  I've been pondering the questions over the last few days:

TOPIC: What Does it Mean to Me? Personal Lessons from the Pandemic

This is about glimpses of meaning that have arisen for us (individually) as a result of all this time alone and/or with changed lives, due to the pandemic.

QUESTIONS TO PONDER

1) What have I learned from this experience that has surprised me?
2) What has been the "gift within the problem"? Discoveries, nuances large or small.
3) What has been the hardest part, and what will I ask for now in my life to help me heal from it?

My own thoughts at the moment are:

1)  I've learnt that I don't actually crave lots of friends, business, places to go and people to see.  I'd always thought I felt so very lonely because I didn't have enough in my life.  Now I think it was because I had too much, but not of the right kind of thing.  I've realised that one of the main things I struggle with is endless boredom.  I find my own life boring (because so much of it has to revolve around son)
and I rarely get time to do anything that I enjoy doing (and don't find boring).  So I don't often feel I have much to offer in a conversation, and I don't tend to find other people talking about their lives terribly interesting when that revolves around shopping, booking holidays and arguing with their husbands (and I'm not knocking that, I just don't find it all that interesting).

I've also been surprised by a lot of the people I know.  A lot of them are left wing/New Age/bohemian/hippy types (pick whichever suits best but you get the gist), and generally all very love, peace and equality kind of people.  I've been astonished how quickly the love, peace and unity went out of the window when keeping the elderly and disabled safe meant they couldn't go out and how many of them felt their needs should be prioritised over anyone who was at risk.  I've heard some truly awful comments from some of them (not everyone, of course, but some really shocked me), and I think I became a bit disillusioned by the whole thing.  That surprised me, I thought they'd all be reaching out to help and organising love ins on Facebook but the opposite's been true.

Son has surprised me with how quickly he adapted, how patient he's been with the whole situation and how well he got into the science of it all and wanted to learn more about viruses and vaccines in general.

2)  The gift, I think, has been realising that I want a lot less of what I had before, not a lot more.  Realising that son doesn't need dozens of groups to go to has been a help, as has seeing how much healthier and happier I feel when I'm not out all day and am not rushing about all the time.  Having time to think, read, watch entire films/shows/box sets without falling asleep has been nice.  I like that I've learnt more about science and feel like I understand my own health better now.

3)  The hardest part - hmm.  I think maybe realising how many years I've spent putting other people first instead of prioritising myself.  That's become apparent with all of this staying in (and none of the people I've run round after calling to ask how we are).  I think I've realised how many decisions I've made that haven't been about what I want or need, and I think I realised how little I value myself and what I do.  That's been hard to acknowledge - I guess all the time at home means the usual distractions aren't there and I can't hide behind things.  I guess the lesson to learn from that is to try really hard now to keep this sense of space and stillness and not get sucked back in to doing all the things I used to do.  I think I need to try really hard not to expect things from people or events - just try more to take it as it comes and not read too much into things or dwell too much (I find not dwelling really hard but it's not healthy so I'm really trying to refocus my mind on other things).  I'll add more if I can think of anything else! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 21, 2021, 11:24:58 AM
Well restrictions are starting to ease here and case numbers are going up, as are the number of deaths.  It does worry me, even with vaccines being rolled out.  What I've read (and this is decent quality scientific stuff, as far as I know) is that (1) the vaccines were tested on fit and healthy people, for obvious reasons, so there won't be clear indications of how effective they are for people with pre existing conditions (like my son) for some time - which could mean they aren't as effective in some people as they are in others.  (2) as I understand it long Covid isn't linked to getting a severe bout (I read of a study in California where 35% of people with long Covid hadn't even known they'd had Covid) - so catching it at all could still mean ending up with longer term health problems, even if you don't get seriously ill with it initially.  And (3), apparently the more it transmits back and forth, particularly across different countries, the more chances there are for it to continue to mutate - which could mean we get to a point where the current vaccines are less effective, or even completely ineffective.  It does worry me, mostly because it just means that I don't feel the risk to myself and son personally has gone away.  It's less risky than it was, but still more risky than the usual day to day things that can happen.  I'd really love to see the numbers staying low.  Just hoping that they don't go through the roof again as the have on each of the previous occasions we've come out of lockdown.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on April 27, 2021, 03:00:22 AM
Hiya, Two,

The Coronavirus burnout effect worries me a lot too. Also, here in U.S. it's such a politicized issue. Very smart people are poo-pooing it on the right of politics & it has become sort of a right politics identity thing to act like Covid is harmless.

keep thinking of this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86on_Flux_(film)

Agreed, I don't feel the risk to myself or the people I know has really gone down in a long-term sort of way. As time goes on more people don't give a shit it seems just another thing to normalize.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 27, 2021, 10:51:56 AM
Hiya, Two,

The Coronavirus burnout effect worries me a lot too. Also, here in U.S. it's such a politicized issue. Very smart people are poo-pooing it on the right of politics & it has become sort of a right politics identity thing to act like Covid is harmless.

keep thinking of this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86on_Flux_(film)

Agreed, I don't feel the risk to myself or the people I know has really gone down in a long-term sort of way. As time goes on more people don't give a shit it seems just another thing to normalize.

Over here people seem to be picking the facts that suit what they want to do :)  Those who are chomping at the bit to go on holiday and go out socialising insist the risk is low (or non existent), those who have to cope with the fallout (medical staff etc) are understandably very cautious, people like me who have found it easier to stay in than cope with the normal world anyway are saying "yeah, ten cases locally, I'm not going anywhere" :) I have booked us both in for haircuts and eye appointments today; we're very overdue for both and it did feel nice to have a few things in the diary, albeit very spaced out and quite minor things.  Personally I still feel that with no long term knowledge of the virus, the vaccine or the economic/other health problems caused by lockdowns that not catching it and not spreading it around is still the best way to go so we're keeping our bubble small :) x
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 28, 2021, 01:20:16 AM
Oh CB, that's great news, I'm so glad you've been able to see some of the kids and get some fresh veggies and take out!  It's funny how people have missed different things.  For some it's long holidays and evenings out, for others it's something a bit nicer for dinner and a low risk catch up, and a thousand other things in between.  Aw, it must have been lovely to see them after all this time :)

I'm sticking with essentials and low risk activity for now.  I'll continue to order everything online, the only exception being that we have a large supermarket a ten minute walk from the house - if I need/want fresh veg I can nip over there when they open at 6am and whizz round an almost empty shop to get what I need (plus one of my neighbours works there and very kindly said that if we ever get stuck text her the shopping list and she'll bring it back with her).  We'll go to the cinema once it opens again next month; we pick the quietest times of day to go, their social distancing and hygiene rules are very good and the seats are left empty in between family groups so you've got space inside, plus masks.  That feels fairly safe to me and for us a couple of hours engrossed in a film is just a godsend, we've both really missed that.  Other than that we'll stick to outdoor stuff (beach picnic, walks etc) but we'll carry on going out either early morning or late evening.  We live in a holiday hotspot and it just gets packed over the summer months anyway; with limited foreign travel it will probably be even busier.  We do the bus on the routes I feel are 'safe' which is basically very local; they limit the number of people so that you can keep space on the bus, masks are mandatory and the bus drivers enforce that (there are exemptions, obviously).  We are keeping our eyes open for a little car or van which will mean we can travel further afield without being in contact with too many but I'm still being very cautious about public loos and things like that - I know my loo is clean and no-one but son and I have used it so I prefer to stay closer to home for that reason, too!

I was watching the news footage of the situation in India last night and it's just heartbreaking and I think a reminder that (a) this hasn't gone away yet and (b) it's a worldwide situation.  I think globally we got it wrong by different countries taking different approaches.  I think we could have nipped this in the bud much sooner if everyone had worked together with the aim of eliminating it from the start.  Hindsight, I know, but even without medical knowledge it would seem sensible to me not to let something like this spread and just hope it's not too bad.  Anyhoo.  I am very glad you got to see your lovelies and that your safety level is up, CB, and I hope there are chances for lots more get togethers to come xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Pseudo Mouse on April 28, 2021, 02:03:39 AM

Over here people seem to be picking the facts that suit what they want to do :)  Those who are chomping at the bit to go on holiday and go out socialising insist the risk is low (or non existent), those who have to cope with the fallout (medical staff etc) are understandably very cautious, people like me who have found it easier to stay in than cope with the normal world anyway are saying "yeah, ten cases locally, I'm not going anywhere" :) I have booked us both in for haircuts and eye appointments today; we're very overdue for both and it did feel nice to have a few things in the diary, albeit very spaced out and quite minor things.  Personally I still feel that with no long term knowledge of the virus, the vaccine or the economic/other health problems caused by lockdowns that not catching it and not spreading it around is still the best way to go so we're keeping our bubble small :) x

Definitely, we see a selective adoption of facts and ideas. I guess more and more people are getting shots so they feel safer. I'm so used to avoiding people at this point and still haven't had a shot. There has been so much confusion and fuss that it feels safer to stay away because every once in a while there is someone who sneezes into another's face like they intend to give CPR.

Good job on getting the appointments taken care of.

One does wonder how much of this pandemic would have been truly solved if people were doing in earnest what we should have done from the start by responding seriously and quickly to it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on April 29, 2021, 04:26:59 AM
I'm keeping an eye on local numbers - up ten the first week, twenty five this week.  I can only assume either people aren't taking precautions or the precautions aren't enough.  Either way, it means we need to keep our distance for some considerable time yet.

Pseudo, yes, I think it should have been taken seriously much sooner x
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 18, 2021, 10:11:39 PM
I think we're lucky this wasn't Ebola. 

Couldn't, should'a, would'a.....the powers that be didn't prioritize containment.  Containment was never on the table, imo.

DD20 is sick today after receiving J&J vaccine last night at Publix.  DD18 and I received J&J at a CVS last week.  DD18 was pretty ill for days.  I felt bad when I worked too long and recovered quickly with rest.

I feel such relief we're all vaccinated.

It's a relief to be home a few days.

Lighter




Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on May 28, 2021, 09:04:59 AM
Glad you've had your jabs, Lighter.  I've had both of my shots, son's still waiting for his second.  Hopefully not long now.

It seems to be a bit of a mixed bag here at the moment.  Cases, numbers in hospitals and deaths are going up, but slowly and it's nothing like the situation it was at the beginning of the year.  I think for us, personally, the worst has passed, although we are still being very cautious and the only indoor activity we're partaking in is the cinema, which is kept very clean and has very strict rules and one way systems in place.  The Indian variant seems to have taken a few who've been fully vaccinated but that said, none of the vaccines are 100% effective anyway so it's hard to know whether it's that particular variant getting past it or if it's more that that's the one most people are getting at the moment.

I personally think what comes next is going to be the hardest.  Public sector services have buckled completely under the strain and there are huge backlogs now for healthcare, with many staff threatening to leave because of poor pay and poor conditions.  A lot of people have taken big financial hits and that's going to be a strain for many and the feeling of community that was there when it started seems to have gone.  Only time will tell, I guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on May 29, 2021, 10:56:16 AM
I'm a little shocked at people gathering without masks...... not using them in public buldings...... just going back to normal, like everything is over here. 

I suspect it's the anti vaccers not wearing masks, btw.  The ones still wearing masks are likely those with vaccines and awareness it's not over.  Yet.

I still wear my mask indoors, for instsance.   

I'm not worrying all the time about it, but then.... I try to be careful.  Do what I can.  Not be stupid.  Just get on with my day. 

I'm glad your cinema feels safe to you. 

Hopefully you'll have a vehicle soon so you can get around and do more again, particularly since you and ds will be fully vacced soon.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 05, 2021, 07:33:23 AM
Masks are still mandatory inside public buildings and on public transport at the moment over here, Lighter.  June 21st was supposed to be the day all restrictions were lifted but case numbers are rising again and so are the numbers of people in the hospital.  The death rate is still quite low.  Personally I wouldn't feel confident about restrictions easing just now and if they do lift them completely, I think we'll be staying home a lot for at least another couple of months while we wait to see what happens.  Son is getting his second jab next week so I'm hoping for a couple of quiet days at home after than just in case he reacts to it and then fingers crossed, getting a little car.  At least that will mean we can get out to some nice quiet places without too many people around for walks and picnics xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on June 05, 2021, 05:48:06 PM
You sound pretty solid, Tupp.

Things are returning to normal for us.  Depending where we are, people wear or don't wear masks.  I'm usually wearing a mask, but sometimes I just get too hot, can't think and pull it down when others aren't wearing theirs.  If they are, I suck it up and wear mine.

I feel more solid in our ability to fight the virus/have a better outcome if we get it, bc we're been immunized.  I don't feel it's going to keep us from getting it.  There's less fear.  More normalcy.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 06, 2021, 04:24:01 AM
I don't know if they're using different ones in different countries.  All of the ones they're using here, as far as I'm aware, definitely don't stop you catching it or passing it on, they just reduce your chances of being seriously ill if you catch it.  They've only been tested on fit and healthy people with well functioning immune systems so I'm still taking the view that it might not offer enough protection for those of us whose circumstances are different and being very careful.  Quite honestly I've preferred not being around people - I don't like busy places anyway and packed buses make me shudder even at the best of times.  I like the masks as well - I've not been told once to smile when I'm out and I hadn't realised how often that happens until it didn't happen?  It's funny, isn't it?  I might keep mine well after everything is over so that everyone thinks I'm highly infectious and keeps away from me :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on June 06, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
DD18 feels the same about wearing masks, tupp.  She feels safer, less vulnerable...... she's OK with wearing them without end.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 07, 2021, 12:54:44 PM
DD18 feels the same about wearing masks, tupp.  She feels safer, less vulnerable...... she's OK with wearing them without end.

Lighter

I've definitely preferred it, Lighter, even regardless of infection risk - I've just not been hassled as much when I'm out?  Definitely prefer it.

Son had his second jab today, very relieved and the clinic is at the beach so we had an ice cream afterwards and went for a walk.  He seems fine, no sign of a reaction yet.  The medical experts are concerned that we're already in a third wave; the Delta variant is more infectious it seems and numbers are climbing quickly.  There are concerns that protection from the Delta variant is far less effective three months after inoculation - which could mean all the vulnerable people becoming more vulnerable again.  There's nothing to do but wait and see but I really would like to see an end to it all now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 18, 2021, 09:53:35 AM
The blooming virus :(  Case numbers are rising quickly, the number in hospital is going up, the death rate is rising.  Still nowhere near the numbers it was earlier in the year but given that we are still officially locked down at the minute it feels like this is all going the wrong way.  As far as I know all front line workers and vulnerable adults have had both jabs now so whether hospital numbers are all people who've not had the jab yet (presumably younger?) or whether these are the numbers you'll see in hospital even with vaccinations I don't know.  I really wish it would go away though, it still feels like comparative safety is a long way off x
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on June 18, 2021, 12:59:22 PM
You're safe, ((Tupp.))

You've kept yourself and DS safe through the worst of this.  You know how.

When things open back up, when the numbers are down you'll have a better idea about what you want from the world.  I have every confidence you'll speak up and ask for more.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2021, 01:25:31 PM
I'm glad you're so rational and remaining very cautious, Tupp. It will blow through but the Delta variant is a new, dangerous wrinkle. Doesn't call for anything different behaviorally than the first Covid-19 did, but will as usual mean a population is variable in how quickly they comprehend it and pivot back.

Our famous Dr. Fauci did an interview about this variant on PBS yesterday, and he contrasted where the U.S. is as compared to the U.K. You're in a worse position right now, because the Delta variant (much more contagious and destructive) is something like 80% of new infections there at the moment, as opposed to about 10% here. (The latter will ramp up quickly, I'm sure.)

I think we in the U.S. may have a fairly-golden, fairly-free summer, but when the Delta variant begins to rip through the unvaccinated, there'll be a lot more and more serious cases coming. Maybe it'll be a slow roll over another whole year, or maybe a fast steep surge. Either way, I'm glad we all know how to hunker down if we have to fully quarantine again.

I'm already pondering booster shots, and hoping those are scheduled out SOON. (Some predicted they'd be needed in anywhere from 3 to six months, but I doubt they can coordinate it all that fast.) The Pfizer is about 95% protective against original Covid-19, but against the Delta variant, that drops to high-80%s. As of now they just say, it works against the variants and you're safe. But to me a number is a number and as Delta comes on, I'm not going to dance around assuming it's total armor.

The spanner in the works is that although they're tracking and evaluating data as fast as they can (heroically, imo), our scientists can't make steel promises. And we'd be silly to demand them. I've just simplified it to:
--I'll continue masking indoors in public (for others' sake if not my own)
--I'll go maskless outdoors in public unless it's a crowded space
--I'll continue to avoid uncessary shopping and pass on indoor restaurants

I'm sure enjoying this current relief from the fear here and hope the variant won't be derailing everything back to starting position. But we know what we're dealing with now, an aerosolized respiratory threat. It'll be not easy but simpler to do another round of cautions if we need to.

Would be nice if all citizens felt motivated to come together with science but given the divisions, we have gone farther than I'd dared to hope. I really hope it evens out ASAP in the U.K., too.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 19, 2021, 08:22:19 AM
Thank you both.  I just feel tired at having to manage the extra risk constantly, and having to judge which is the bigger risk - catching something or mostly staying home.  As I understand it here (Hopsie, you can jump in if I've got any of this wrong, you understand all of this better than I do) is that Astra Zeneca, which is what son and I have both had, gives approx 60% to 90% protection against hospitalisation depending on which report you read.  90% makes me feel pretty safe, 60% is only a bit better than 50/50 and I'm not keen on that.  I think, if I've understood it correctly, that high vaccination is needed to stop new mutations can just get rid of it overall, because the vaccine response weakens the virus and makes it (a) die out and (b) stop changing into new mutations.  Is that right?  And as I understand it this needs to be global, because people will pick it up in other countries and keep spreading it around otherwise.  I'm concerned that numbers are rising so fast.  Even with a lower death rate, the hospitals can't manage their normal workload and a highly infectious virus and there are already long waiting lists because they've had to stop so many other treatments and surgeries while all of this is going on.  Everyone's sick of all of it, no-one wants to lock down again and I can understand that.  So many businesses have gone under.  I'm doing the same as you, Hopsie, we're only indoors for cinema and library, both of which are easy to keep distance from people (plus masks), shops are for essentials only, I go as early in the day as possible and grab what I need and go, ditto the bus.  It's easier being outside at the mo as it's summer so I'm really hoping they've got on top of it before winter sets in again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 19, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
I don't understand how mutations work, but think you've got it right: "high vaccination is needed, etc..." That's what herd immunity would be, I believe.
This comparison includes AstraZeneca but does not include the Delta variant.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison (https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison)

Oxford-AstraZeneca

This vaccine, which is currently being distributed in the United Kingdom and other countries, is distinguished from some of its competitors by its lower cost—it’s cheaper to make per dose, and it can be stored, transported, and handled in normal refrigeration for at least six months. Some countries temporarily suspended use of this vaccine in March after a small number of recipients developed blood clots. In April, a European Medicines Agency (EMA) safety committee concluded "unusual blood clots with low blood platelets should be listed as very rare side effects" that could occur within two weeks of receiving the vaccine. While the U.K. called for further investigation, EMA regulators stressed that the benefits of the vaccine still outweigh the risks.

Status: Not available in the U.S., authorized for use in the European Union (under the name Vaxzevria).

Recommended for: Adults 18 and older

Dosage: Two doses, four to 12 weeks apart

Common side effects: Tenderness, pain, warmth, redness, itching, swelling or bruising at the injection site, all of which generally resolve within a day or two.

How it works: Similar to the Johnson & Johnson's vaccine, this is a carrier vaccine, made from a modified version of a harmless adenovirus. The final product contains the spike protein found in SARS-CoV-2. When that protein reaches the body’s cells, the immune system mounts a defense, creating antibodies and memory cells to protect against an actual SARS-Cov2 infection.

How well it works: AstraZeneca updated its data analysis of its phase 3 trials in March, showing its vaccine to be 76% effective at reducing the risk of symptomatic disease 15 days or more after receiving the two doses, and 100% against severe disease. The company also said the vaccine was 85% effective in preventing COVID-19 in people over 65. The company’s update came a few days after the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) expressed concern over new data AstraZeneca had submitted in advance of requesting an EUA from the FDA. The NIAID said that data may have included outdated information, which would make its efficacy data incomplete. 

How well it works on virus mutations: So far it seems to work better against Alpha variant than the Beta variant. A paper in early February (not yet peer-reviewed) cited 74.6% efficacy against the Alpha variant. However, the vaccine did not protect as well against mild and moderate cases in people infected with the Beta variant. Therefore, South Africa halted its rollout while scientists continue to study whether the vaccine can prevent severe illness and death in people infected with this variant.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 20, 2021, 05:31:56 PM
Given my age and conditioning, and the Delta variant building, I'm going to maintain public masking, period. And likely continue to have groceries delivered. It's just not more important to me to do "normal" than it is to skip getting infected entirely.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/the-covid-delta-variant-how-effective-are-the-vaccines (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/the-covid-delta-variant-how-effective-are-the-vaccines)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 22, 2021, 10:29:25 AM
Very clear, and very sad.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/20/us-coronavirus-infection-rate-fall-2021/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/20/us-coronavirus-infection-rate-fall-2021/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 27, 2021, 07:38:11 AM
Well the most recent report here is suggesting that the vaccines are 95% effective against death with regard to the Delta variant, which is good news.  Local cases have quadrupled in the last two weeks, but there hasn't been a recorded death here for a month (in our area).  Nationally, infections are increasing daily but, so far, hospitals aren't being swamped with Covid cases and the death rate is remaining relatively low.  I guess the best we can hope for is fewer hospital admissions and fewer deaths, given that it doesn't seem to be possible to stop it spreading altogether xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 27, 2021, 08:18:20 PM
New concern about whether the vaccinated are actually protected against the Delta variant...(It was Israel that spotted the heart stuff, so I'm paying attention!).
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/covid-19-delta-infecting-vaccinated-in-israel_n_60d6661ce4b066ff5aba8faa?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculation (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/covid-19-delta-infecting-vaccinated-in-israel_n_60d6661ce4b066ff5aba8faa?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculation)

I think full lockdown and a terrible rise in Covid (Delta) are on their widespread way, unfortunately. I so wish the whole world would just roll up its sleeves immediately and get the jabs as soon as they're available.

Tragic what's about to hit in fall, I'm thinking. I'm glad many had a year to practice quarantining, because the vaccine plus masking and distancing are the only things that keep us safe when it's on the rise.

Just heard on the news that the Delta variant is 100% more transmissable (and a lot more severe) than "original" Covid and that basically all Covid cases now are among the unvaccinated. I cannot imagine what it'll be like when Delta explodes if people don't make the choice...they also said we have two weeks here before the Delta is the dominant strain in the U.S. TWO WEEKS.

Sighs and hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 28, 2021, 04:00:41 AM
It's interesting how the information is different on each side of the pond, over here we've been told from the outset that being vaccinated won't stop you catching it and only reduces your chances of being seriously ill from it.  About a third of current deaths here are in vaccinated people - I read something yesterday that said basically if you're 80 and vaccinated then your risk from catching it is about the same as an unvaccinated 50 year old.  I've not found data yet on how people with learning disabilities are doing now they've been vaccinated; I'd like to see some info about that but I haven't been brave enough to venture on to Twitter to hunt it down :) We're just carrying on with masks and distance as much as possible.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 28, 2021, 09:38:51 AM
Sure is different.
I'd love to see that article saying vaxxed 80 y/o's are as protected as unvaxxed 50's. Oy. Defenintely not the vax message I've taken in so far.
I think there's a lot of denial here. Both of how different/dangerous the Delta is, and of how the vax does save lives of course--but it's not perfect protection and therefore skipping around going la la la it's all over let's French kiss might not be the best reaction. Oh, humans! Americans seem to deal more in absolutes, I think, or black and white thinking.

I'm with you, hunker down and heads up.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 28, 2021, 10:19:42 AM
It's this one, Hopsie, the age bit is about half way down:

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated

It is all very confusing, but then I suppose the situation is changing almost daily and there is an overlap between fact and opinion and/or best guess kind of information.  What I've taken it all to mean is that our risk factor is lower, but it's still there (and I still don't fancy catching it however low the risk is!) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 28, 2021, 02:09:52 PM
Yup, more nuance.
Although the stat does include that 40% of them only had one jab...sheesh. Though it was specific to the U.K. it's probably going to be the same outcome here.

Yup, it's just not black and white. Dangerous virus out there so behaviors are the greatest protection for all. If we just don't physically breathe it in, that's safety. (Hard to do in cities and crowded areas, but hooray masks.)

I still have a stash of the unbreathable N-95s and loads of the simple ones, so I'll make sure I keep both on hand.

Still enjoying this golden summer of freedom and outdoors and hugs in fully-vaccinated small gatherings -- the threat of the Delta makes in poignantly sweeter.

Thanks, Tupp...I love the Guardian but this one didn't pop up in the US edition today.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 29, 2021, 05:01:09 AM
Do you look at the 'Dear Pandemic' website as well, Hopsie?  I find that one very useful, I like the way they explain things in easy to understand terms but they also put the links to the science stuff at the bottom so you can check those bits if you want to as well (they're all scientists so they're good at assessing risk and crunching the numbers).

Anyway - in positive news, I just had the plumber round to do the boiler, he's a local chap and he said that his business has thrived during the lockdowns and he really enjoyed having more time at home with the kids and the kids loved being home educated.  He also said that all the other people he knows who are either small traders or self employed have all seen a real boom in business while all of this has been going on, as people have shopped local and/or online, rather than going to the big retail parks.  It was just nice to hear someone say actually, while it's been awful for some, we've all done pretty well and we know plenty of others have as well.  Made me feel hopeful for the future and was nice to hear someone say they enjoyed being home with their kids more :) xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on June 29, 2021, 12:39:16 PM
That is a nice story, Tupp! Plumbers rule.

Thanks for the website suggestion, I appreciate it!

Finally figured out that what's recently been confusing me is the conflicting statements coming from our CDC (less rigorous caution) vs the WHO. The CDC got tragically politicized and is still trying to come back from that. I could be wrong but the WHO strikes me as more objective/scientific.

My laptop cursor got paralysed and I'm terrible on the tablet, so I'll hush for now....

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 29, 2021, 01:00:27 PM
We've got the same problem here, Hopsie - the new health secretary is adamant all masks, social distancing and lockdown restrictions will be gone by mid July while all docs, science people and WHO are saying significant risk, we're in a fourth wave here and so on.  The problem we have here is that I don't think people will tolerate another or an extended lockdown now.  The former health secretary had to resign after he was caught snogging his aide during (a) work time, (b) no contact Covid rules and (c) they're both married to other people.  He's one of a number of high up people that simply haven't bothered to follow the rules.  They've got 20,000 plus turning up for football matches, Ascot, G7 summit (in which they were all pictured not observing social distance) but they're still not letting people accompany their loved ones to hospital and visits to care homes etc are still restricted.  It is all very hypocritical and I just don't think people will put up with it for much longer.  We're lucky that we can stay home a lot and if we do go anywhere we can go at quieter times but a lot of others just don't have those choices.  I'm keeping everything crossed that the vaccines do their thing and keep the severe cases low but I guess just by a numbers game the more people that catch it the more that will be poorly from it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on June 29, 2021, 01:10:49 PM
And I've just peeked at the local numbers and they've gone up another two hundred cases locally in the last two days.  Definitely looks like we'll be staying in regardless of what else happens now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 04, 2021, 05:09:37 AM
Do you think 'old fashioned' attitudes have been more adept at dealing with the pandemic?  I was just thinking today about how differently people have handled it.  Some have adapted quite quickly and have just got on with it - they've seemed to me (just among the people I know) to be the people who don't need to be out all the time and have the ability to be 'make do and mend' about their lives - whether it's just coming up with games or activities for the kids to do, being able to knock up a meal out of left overs and odd and ends in the fridge, or being able to change their businesses and/or take on a different job for a while.  They always feel to me like things that are considered old fashioned now (ie, not sorted out by your phone/Facebook feed, home delivery etc).  It's across the age groups; I know younger people who've got on like that as well but I just wondered if consumerism/being used to having things done for you has made it harder for some people to cope?
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 04, 2021, 09:37:01 AM
I think consumerism definitely makes the culture weaker.
In my head, I'm a frugal pioneer woman.
But to my body, grocery delivery is a game-changer.
And the cleaner. And the garden helper. Can't keep it up $
so I'm imagining more clearly what might become impossible
(for me) about living alone one day.

I shouldn't pick today to look inward about these things.
The shoulder is just painful as hell and amazingly limiting.
But PT starts soon.

What I think consumerism does is damage the sense of self.
Do I have the RIGHT:
clothes, furniture, tastes, appearance, etc etc ad nauseum?

I think that hurts us in a deep way and skews our capacity
to determine between a need and a media-or-socially-stimulated want.
Too many people don't sit around and ponder humanity, theirs
and others', but ponder stuff and tribes and avoiding changes.

All of us, at times.

hugs
Hops

hugs
Hops

Will complain about it on the Health thread sometime.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 05, 2021, 04:45:35 AM
I'm so sorry about your shoulder, Hopsie.  I often wonder about people living more communally (in the past, multiple generations in the same house) and how it would have helped in some ways (practical help, company) and hindered in others (unpleasant relationship dynamics, lack of privacy etc).  No easy answers to these things we ponder.  I hope your shoulder starts to feel better soon, it's horrible when something hurts all the time like that.  I think this bit summed it up well:  skews our capacity to determine between a need and a media-or-socially-stimulated want.

There's also a need for comfort, I think - a squishy blanket might not be essential (a scratchy one would still keep you warm) but squishy makes you feel better.  We're probably more conditioned not to think about comfort as an essential, maybe?  Goes back to something else you said about telling people you'd felt lonely?  I can't remember if that was this thread now or another one?  It was just something I was pondering again over the weekend and wondering why some people had found this all easier to cope with than others, regardless of circumstance.

Worrying over here; government seems to be intending to abandon all measures from mid July despite rapidly rising cases and scientists advising them not to.  It will definitely mean much of the summer at home and/or away from people if that happens.  Many others will be in the same boat.  We'll have a car, at least, so getting out to quieter places will be an option.  Just feel sorry for son, with no social contact other than his worn out middle aged mother for all this time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 11, 2021, 09:14:41 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2021/07/09/live-chat-carolyn-hax/#link-f760ab16f6994a95a25cf131596cedc2 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2021/07/09/live-chat-carolyn-hax/#link-f760ab16f6994a95a25cf131596cedc2)

This is a Carolyn Hax chat excerpt but fits under Covid.
And maybe other threads too.
Hugs--Hops

HEADLINE: How do I get comfortable being assertive?
Guest:
Hi Carolyn, an unfortunate effect of the pandemic is that I often have to push back against unvaccinated people who want to interact with my infant daughter. Some of these people like to insult me and people like me online. Even believing that I am 100% in the right, I still find myself shaking whenever I attempt to respond, and thinking about it hours and days later. How do I get better about not letting this affect me?

[Reminds me of your/our struggles with rumination, Tupp...you're not alone!]

Carolyn Hax:
Practice. And it might never feel great, but it's like anything else that goes against your wiring or training. It will feel weird and wrong and draining until you're able to reach a point of habit or familiarity. Like learning a second language. Even if you never become fluent, you will still get better (and feel less stressed) with practice.
 
Think we could persuade Hax to join our forum? I am SUCH a fan-girl....

It will also help to get as much "online" off your schedule [as possible]. It gets so much harder to care "that these people like to insult me and people like me" if you're not there to read/see/hear it. Unless you use social media for a living or as part of it, you can step partly or fully away from it. (What if they had a culture war and nobody came?)

And that last quip reminds me of Amber-philosophy...

Any assertiveness you build for this unfortunate reason will at least be useful to you as a parent. You'll need it, whether it's to stick up for or stand up to your kid. No shortage of either scenario in my experience.

I'm also sorry so many people are abdicating their collective responsibility to a whole population of people now (under 12, immune compromised), and to all of us eventually if the mutations they enable are beyond the reach of vaccines.

Another commenter:
I'm a front line responder and though I know your readers are probably mostly on the vaxxed side of the fence, I want to put out a friendly plea for anyone who isn't vaccinated yet to hurry up and get on with it. Last year was really tough for those of us dealing with the consequences of all the ways this thing was mismanaged on both governmental and personal levels. We're all so freaking tired. I look at the rising numbers among folks who won't get the shot and I feel like I'm watching the water withdraw before the tsunami. We don't have to go the way we're going.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 12, 2021, 04:49:47 AM
It's difficult, isn't it?  I think the problem is that in so many countries now we've all had decades of being ripped off, done over, lied to and lied about by our respective governments, and the trust (understandably and quite logically, I think) just isn't there.  I know from my own personal experiences that the most deceitful, dishonest interactions I've ever had have been with public sector staff, including doctors, many of whom have fobbed me off whether with regard to my own health problems, or my sons.  The pharmaceutical companies have spent years pushing pills for all sorts of reasons and personal responsibility with regard to diet, exercise and so on has gone out of the window.  Add to that many years of pretty crappy education for many and fifteen or so years of unchecked, unmonitored social media use and we're really in a perfect storm - least equipped to deal with this and without trust in others who are telling us what to do (whilst not doing it themselves).  I think if it weren't for the fact I've had all of son's health problems to deal with and that's given me a good understanding and access to a range of sources that I know are fact based I might not be quite so eager to get vaccinated myself.  It's very hard, I think the current circumstances have been decades in the making and I don't know that we'll ever really get it all sorted out again?  It's a pretty sobering thought xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 12, 2021, 11:14:53 AM
I feel so badly for folks who are afraid of the shots. Criticism of government management is completely legit, imo, yet over here the trends are starkly black and white. In high-vaccination areas, cases are waaaay down. In vaccine-resistant states, waaaaay up. That part is science, not government. It's just sad.

The Delta and future mutations if they're double-contagious (as Delta is) will sweep across state lines and pretty much obliterate sanity in their wake.

There are always individual and anecdotal divergences from the major trends in science. Side effects, etc. M got very ill three weeks after his second Pfizer jab. His docs' theory is that his huge immune reaction triggered an underlying arrythmia (he'd already had a cardiac ablation for a rhythm problem 11 years ago) and this time, it became afib (which he didn't have before). The procedure went fine but they had to cauterize more misfiring electrical cells than they did 11 years ago.

Yet he has absolutely convinced himself that he is among the statistically very rare cases of heart inflammation due to the 2nd Pfizer shot (first identified in young people in Israel; he's 74.) I still don't know whether his doctors agree with him on that. He said repeatedly that he felt "poisoned."

I remember an unpleasant few hours in the middle of the night after Jab #2 with random and different-feeling chest pangs (like a little demon was running through my chest jabbing at things with a cocktail fork). I call them pangs rather than pains because it didn't feel like heart pain. I also had a new form of shortness of breath that felt like a bellows -- deep weird gasps. Not terrifying, because I was getting plenty of oxygen, but strange. Plus mild chills. After a few hours it was over and I went back to sleep. I had the same SOB on mild exercise off and on for a couple weeks afterward. Chalked it up to a combo of acceptable vaccine reaction plus my underlying deconditioning. (Haven't had it since despite still being low on exercise.)

All that said, I have zero hesitation in getting a booster when they tell me to. I'd go through my own reaction every night if that's what it takes to avoid this disease. I think we're very lucky that scientists went all-out to get vaccines out. They're continuing to refine them now and I still have faith in them.

M also is committed to getting a booster when recommended, though he'll switch brands in the hope it'll be easier on him. Meanwhile, he's bounced back and is feeling great. We're going swimming tomorrow afternoon. He finished a book and wrote 18 articles during the last year and a half of mostly-quarantine. Wow.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 12, 2021, 12:18:11 PM
Aw, the swimming sounds lovely, Hopsie!  Yes, I'll be getting myself loaded up with any shot for anything I can get lol, I had a great night's sleep after my first jab!

The problem I'm seeing here (and I don't know if it's the same over there) is the way that information can be presented to fit an argument.  So at the moment, a fair chunk of people who are dying from it have been vaccinated.  It makes sense; it doesn't guarantee you won't get seriously ill so some people will still die if they catch it and they'd generally be older or have underlying conditions.  The unvaccinated here are mostly younger, healthier people, and that's only because they haven't all been offered it yet - uptake generally is good, as I understand it.  But of course, they're less likely to die from it or need hospital treatment anyway, so people are using those stats as proof that the vaccine is killing people - it's not being presented in a fact based context, there's a lot of scare mongering and I think that puts some people off.  It's too difficult to figure it all out.  Social media's played a big role, I think.  Not right, in my opinion.

Encouragingly, a lot of people I've spoken to are still very cautious about the virus and they've said they'll carry on wearing masks for as long as the virus is still going.  Often because they've older parents or vulnerable relatives that they want to try to keep safe.  I'm hoping it's not going to get as bad as it was.  I think you're so much bigger over there that some of your states are like countries in their own right almost.  I guess it's much smaller here.  They've all been out at the football though, which I think was bonkers - tens of thousands of people and apparently they weren't checking vaccine status (which they were supposed to) before entry so who knows how that will play out.  I'm keeping things crossed.  I just wish the media was a bit more responsible, in all its forms.  Enjoy the swim, Hopsie, it sounds lovely! xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 18, 2021, 12:48:59 PM
From a comment on the Washington Post today:

People are feeling a false sense of security and immunity from the virus because of vaccination status but the Delta variant changes things. My fully vaccinated 66 year old husband, son in law, four month old granddaughter, two year old granddaughter and now my daughter and daughter in law have developed Covid in the last week from a family gathering in our home. We did not engage in any high risk exposure and all adults were fully vaccinated. We stopped wearing masks and let our guard down. We did not think it could happen to us. It did!
Please remain vigilant and continue to wear your mask. This virus is not through with us.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 18, 2021, 03:05:14 PM
Another smart WashPost commenter:

....Prior to the CDC's surprise announcement, NC had a indoor mask mandate in place with a plan in place to go to the next phase of loosening when we hit specific vaccination targets.

The state rescinded the mask mandate within a day or two of the CDC announcement even though we were far short of the target vaccination level laid out in the plan. The decision about masking was kicked down to the individual business level.

Some businesses stuck with across-the-board masking for about a week, but then everyone bowed to pressure and posted that masking was not required for the vaccinated. But of course there was no way to verify whether a person is vaccinated or not.

Almost everyone abandoned their masks even though it is clear that many unvaccinated people were not masking. In fact, the only group still wearing masks in any numbers were seniors (and near seniors like me). Which of course was the age group most likely to be already be vaccinated  - the 65+ group was running at a 25 - 30% higher vaccination level than the adult population as a whole in NC.  The group least likely to wear masks was, naturally, the group least likely to be vaccinated - in other words young people who were "over" Covid.

So basically, behavioral science led to the opposite outcome of what the hard science suggested would be best. All because of people who, when given a choice to either mask or get the vaccine, chose "neither of the above".

It seems entirely predictable to me considering the polarization and general selfishness in our society. Only the CDC was naive enough to think it would go otherwise.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on July 19, 2021, 06:12:17 AM
There seems to be a lot of confusion over vaccines preventing infection; it's been made clear over here that doesn't happen right from the outset but the message doesn't seem to have got through.  Our case numbers here are through the roof and today is officially 'Freedom Day' - no more restrictions in any way.  Complete madness.  I went to the shop early this morning and most people were still wearing masks.  I just can't see an end in sight all the time airports are still open and people are moving about so much.  Son's annoyed that the papers are saying 'You can take your mask off' and I'm saying 'No you can't'.  He understands, but it annoys him that messages are mixed.  Everyone's exhausted, I feel so sorry for the people who have to work through it all and don't have any choice in the matter.  So hard for all of them to cope.

Re vaccines, I do know several people who've caught Covid since being jabbed - they've been ill for a couple of days and then okay.  That is encouraging, at least xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on July 30, 2021, 09:28:14 AM
My brother was dx'd with Covid.  He texted he's been to the doctor's twice, labs are ok..... he's bunkered down at home. 

We had lots of questions.  He answered 2.  Said it feels like the flu.  He doesn't think he needs help.

I pray he doesn't have a tough time and there's no lasting health issues.

Lighter



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on July 30, 2021, 03:55:25 PM
Was he vaccinated, Lighter? I'm so sorry.

I've just read the wave has suddenly begun receding in the U.K. and in India.
Who knows, but sounds like the vicious Delta variant is just whipping through, much terrible destruction in its wake, but then moving rapidly on.

That's an evil and scary bugger. I hope enough people are protected to not get severely ill.

Lots of light to your brother, and any others who may be unprotected.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on July 31, 2021, 09:58:36 AM
No, Tupp.....not vaccinated.  He explained it like this..... doc gave him steroids and Zpack to keep his lungs clear. He feels congested, no fever....like the regular flu.  An employee has it too.  GF s negative.  Son, living in the same house.... negative.

I think being in the house for a week has him bored and a bit stir crazed, but he sounded steady to me.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Twoapenny on August 01, 2021, 05:05:24 AM
I hope he's feeling better soon, Lighter.  It is weird how some people catch it and some don't, when they live or work together.  I've heard of many people here who've had some people in the household with it and other's  haven't caught it at all, even though they live together and have looked after them.  It's an odd and unpredictable virus, that's for sure.  I hope he's back to full health quickly.

The numbers here do seem to be dropping quickly and I'm hoping that means this hump is over.  There are a lot in hospital again and the death rate is right back up.  I think it's the longevity of it all that's so tough - all the staff that have had to work through it for months and months, all the people that have had to stay home for long periods, those who've had to avoid contact with others all the way through and so on.  I still don't feel that the quality of information being given out here is good enough and I'm having to hunt down various sources to try to figure out what our own personal risk level is (stay away from people is the signal for us at the minute, but it does seem to be falling).  Restrictions here have been lifted but most have carried on with masks and space anyway.  I think the vaccine rate here is pretty high; I did read that they think we're almost at herd immunity now and that another month or so we should be there.  I hope that's the case, and that it's sufficient against other variants.  And that they hurry up and help out other nations with vaccines.  And act quicker to stop future outbreaks.  And, and, and xx
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 03, 2021, 11:09:55 AM
The neighbor doc's intensive care beds are full of Coronavirus cases....non vaxed, every one.

She said a spike looks imminent and she's waiting for marching orders.

She said typically the cases go South real quick....likely, my brother won't experience terrible illness if he's been I'll for a week without hospitalization.

She also said one of her patients is 32 yo.  One is 48yo. 

It's not just elderly people nose diving with Covid.

She also said they aren't testing cases to determine which Covid type patients have.  She said Ga isn't interested in testing or reporting Covid numbers at all.

Not a great update, but good to know. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phyll on August 03, 2021, 07:00:18 PM
I had to go to Jury Duty today.  Other than one witness (a doctor) who testified briefly, I was the only person in the courtroom wearing a mask.  Our county rated High for infection.  Although I am fully vaxed, I really do not even want a mild case of this COVID Delta variant.  As it is, I had to cancel my PT evaluation and wound care appointments for tomorrow. I just really do not want to lose further ground on my rehab from surgery and recovery from Lymes disease.

My W of course is overly concerned with how this is going to affect him, saying I will catch COVID, give it to him, and because he has an immune disorder he will likely get really sick and die. That is a whole other issue.

I am not sure what I am going to do.  Later this month, my brother is having a funeral service at the cemetery for his wife N who died last December.  My 70 year old brother is not vaccinated, and neither are his adult son and daughter.  The daughter and her adult kids are all flying in from Texas. I know some are vaxed and some I am not sure of.  The timing is so bad. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 03, 2021, 11:49:17 PM
Sorry you couldn't get out of going to jury duty post op, P.

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 04, 2021, 05:14:34 AM
At an outdoor funeral, can you stand at least 6' from others and wear an N95 mask, Phyl? I think I'd feel safe doing that. (I went to a funeral a month ago and feel lucky I didn't get ill. Kept my mask on during the service but the entire unmasked local congregation was singing loudly and I realized I was mistaken to be there. Told my friend I needed air and went outside about halfway through.)

As to PT, etc. -- if they're following all precautions there, I hope you can continue.

Jury duty, too.

Wear your mask with dignity and take care of yourself, Phyl.

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 08, 2021, 06:12:56 PM
How things overlap. Unusual comment in the NYTimes today:

lulugirl765
Midwest
Aug. 7
I’ve met my fair share of anti-vaxxers and Covid deniers. They all have one thing in common. They believe they have a particular insight and are smarter than everyone else, thinking they see a reality only they are special enough to see. Their sense of identity is to BE an exception and exempt from everyone else. Debunking whatever theory or viewpoint they have leads to doubling down, it doesn’t address the need to be special and have insight that others (sheep) lack. So being wrong kicks them in the core of self-esteem, and they will defend that at all costs. And yes, it often co-exists with defensiveness over a lack of education, or not paying attention. I’ve met anti-vaxxer nurses and even here they think they have special insight as nurses into "untested" tech. They don’t let go of that self-esteem because this personality type knows they are broken, they lie on the borderline, narcissistic and anti-social spectrum, even just mildly. They’ve been beaten down as kids and beaten down as adults. The virus doesn’t care, but they will sit in the ICU denying they have Covid because they can’t be wrong or that fragile thread of special self-esteem breaks. I say we have to let them alone, because they are even more dangerous cornered with their reality.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phyll on August 16, 2021, 12:15:42 PM
I decided to go to the funeral service of my sister-in-law this Saturday.  Plan to stay 6 feet apart and wear the N95 mask.  It is outdoors.  W (my NH) is furious, demanding a pro and con list of my decision making based on science not emotion.  I have learned it is better not to argue so I will not provide him with my list. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 16, 2021, 01:13:54 PM
What do you do when faced with W's rage, P?

My youngest DD19 had 24 hours if close contact with a friend suffering with a fever now.  Her little brother was dx'd with Covid a couple days ago.

I worry we have it/are carrying it, mostly bc contractor hasn't been vaccinated and he's been in our space.  Heavy smoker.....coughs often on his best days, Lordy....could go so badly.

P, you honor your SIL in the way you're u need to.  You're free to walk away from rages, name calling, raised voice.... you're free to say you'll be available in an hour or whatever time you set....a day.....but you'll remove yourself if your stated boundary is crossed again.

Then follow through by removing yourself, without emotional upset.  Just be sorry W is dealing with consequences of his sad choices, but it's up to him.  You have no control over him or his choices.  You only control yourself. 
There's relief in accepting those facts, ime.

Lighter



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phyll on August 16, 2021, 06:04:49 PM
Thank you Lighter.  When faced with W's rage I go for a walk, a drive, or I go upstairs.  I have the upper level to myself, where my bedroom, office and bathroom are located.  The ceiling is made of  tongue and groove wood.  It feels warm and spacious up here. I have kept to myself most of the day, as he is full of venom.  I do not want it on me.

How awful your contractor is coughing around you with this virus going around.  I find out in a half hour if I will be going to jury duty tomorrow.  If it were not for COVID, I would really look forward to going. The last time during jury selection, I had a man sit next to me for 5 minutes who was coughing and rather disheveled looking.  I was so glad he was excused.

It is important for me to be going to the service.  I fear for my brother, he did not get vaccinated.  He said he never sees anyone. He is 70 years old.  His son is an anti-vaxer.  His daughter may be as well - she and the grand kids and great grand kids are flying in from Texas.  I rarely see the kids, the last time was 3 years ago.  I am glad I visited my SIL the summer before last. 

W really is miserable.  It is harder for me now that I am retired, it was harder still while temporarily disabled from surgery and Lyme's disease.  I could not get away from him.

I retired because of the coronavirus.  After 37 years of state service, inspecting and investigating complaints in nursing homes and assisted living facilities; I found myself unwilling to go into the facilities. I loved my job, it was always interesting and challenging - I felt good about what I was doing. I was admired and respected by my peers and vice versa.

Now I am faced with the full realization of who W really is. He is quick to criticize and I rarely receive a compliment.  He only has 2 friends - consists of phone calls and text messages.  He has no contact with his family. He is sucking me dry...

Whew.  Where did that all come from?!  :o Feels good to let it out to people who understand.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 17, 2021, 01:14:35 AM
The Washington Post has a no-subscription Covid newsletter. Here's the link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/newsletters/coronavirus-updates/?auto=true&method=SURL&location=ART&initiative=FREE

I find their coverage straightforward, detailed and clear.

One thing I'm keeping in mind these days is long Covid. So many vaccinated folks are relaxing because they probably won't get extremely ill or need to be hospitalized. I just keep hearing what sound to me like incomplete or partial understandings of this variant and how damaging it is.

I've also been reading that they just don't know a lot of things still, and one they're quite worried about is the unknown effects of long Covid. Even cognitive problems are now suspected. Long term. (I feel worst for children under 12 who so far have no vaccine protection at all.) Plus the immunocompromised; that's a nightmare.

I'm going almost all the way back to full quarantine and am pretty sure I'll be there by winter. I'll still invite people to sit around my bonfire but will ask that we keep masks on even outdoors. The Delta variant (and lord knows how many after it) is sobering. Twice as contagious with 1000 times (!) the viral load in nose and throat.

Stay safe, y'all. We're facing a new thing and it's smarter than we are.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 17, 2021, 10:50:13 AM
This morning I realized I'm IN quarantine, bc it's likely I have Covid.

I'm going to stop myself from the catastrophizing I go in and out of, but dang.....
dang.

Lighter



Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 17, 2021, 12:23:27 PM
((((((Lighter))))).

Please get tested. Right now.

No sitting around diagnosing yourself.
There are still loads of "normal" viruses in the air.

You will be okay.
But you must get a test.

Call your doc. Or look up where to get one on your area's health dept. website
and go get it.

Let us know!

Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Phyll on August 17, 2021, 04:33:38 PM
Thank you for the link Hopalong.  I did some reading.  It was helpful in getting prepared for the practical side of staying safe at the funeral service.
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 17, 2021, 06:50:34 PM
It's been raining here for days..... WNC has flash flood warnings.  In my county and neighboring ones.  We had a tornado warking this afternoon. 

I need fresh greens. I'm craving them.  I saw a sign at a groery store for at home Covid tests I can just pick up.  I guess I can SEE the test results at home?

My sister said the tests in Canada over the counter are 40.00, which seems reasonable.

And here I am....... thinking of driving through a storm, into a public area, to buy food and Covid tests even though I'm not sure when a test would show I have Covid or not... if I do have it.  I WILL get tested. 

My head is stinging today... not sure if it's the the atmospheric pressure, something in my sinuses or a flu coming on, but suggestions around timing of testing would be good.  I think DD19 was exposed Tues/Wed..... last week. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 17, 2021, 07:10:15 PM
After reading through many sites.... I've figured out the main confusion for me is DD19 was the only one exposed to the friend with Covid.

DD21 and I have been around DD19 who might not BE spreading Covid yet, even if she has the virus.  I read testing 5-7 days after exposure will show if she has the virus.  Common info says Covid can be spread 2 or 3 days before symptoms pop up which typially happen 5 to 7 days after exposure with some cases lasting as long as 14 days. 

If DD19 has no symptoms, but has the virus.... I guess she can take the test now.  If she's clear.... then DD21 and I should be clear.

Lighter

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 17, 2021, 07:15:17 PM
Lighter, I strongly recommend getting a Covid test through a public health resource.

If you can buy a new sink, you can go to the health department testing facility, or whatever's the best place locally. Please do. Even drive-in is fine. This isn't shopping for a bargain, it's getting an important medical test.

It'll be a big relief if it's negative and a big clarification of next steps if it's positive.

Avoid commercially sold or unproven tests, best to go public-health-recommended, not special-different-source, on this one.

AND--the Delta variant behaves somewhat differently. In terms of timing. Here's a helpful summary from a reliable source, MIT:
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/07/are-things-different-delta (https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/07/are-things-different-delta)

I simply Googled: how soon after delta exposure do you test positive. Bingo.

Google is excellent for answering straightforward questions. Here are the key takeaways from the article for where you are right now:

If you have been exposed… Delta is now the dominant form of the virus circulating in this country. If you have a known exposure to someone who has become ill and/or had a positive COVID-19 test, it is likely you have been exposed to this variant.

You can be tested earlier. If you have been infected, you will likely test positive by the fourth day after your exposure. Of course, a negative test on Day Four does not mean you are not infected, and it would be a good idea to re-test in the next few days, but you no longer need to wait until Day Five or Six for an initial test.

You can infect people sooner. If you develop symptoms and/or test positive, be aware that you could have infected others within a day and a half of becoming infected yourself. Make sure your contacts are identified and notified of their possible exposure. And bear in mind that because the Delta variant is more transmissible, even brief encounters may have exposed someone else to the virus.


hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 18, 2021, 09:59:08 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/18/upshot/coronavirus-test-bill-cost.html?smid=url-share (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/18/upshot/coronavirus-test-bill-cost.html?smid=url-share)

Lighter, this should help, I hope.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 18, 2021, 11:53:50 AM
GRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrr.......
testing WILL happen today, BUT it's not clear where or how. 

No one answers phones. 

The ONE place showing up as current testing site DID answer, but they have a 2 week wait for getting tested, which is not ideal FOR US.  Their practitioner is on vacation.  I can imagine they're burned out and needed that vacation.

I'm back to asking for a favor OR doing a drive in test of unknowable origins OR picking one up from the pharmacist which my friend used and claims was as accurate as the one she paid 195.00 for.

Factoring in dates, possible other factors, wait times and expense..... is impossible to do apples to apples is what I'm finding.

It almost seems like there's no coordination on purpose. I see a public health facility in Tennessee.....which is one State over.

Ahhhhh.

Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 18, 2021, 12:15:15 PM
I hear you, Lighter.

If the drive-through testing is administered by public health or a hospital, that's reliable.

No difference if you get a nose swab in your car or in an office.

Good luck, please keep us posted.

hugs--
Hops
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: Hopalong on August 18, 2021, 12:20:22 PM
Comprehensive article about and reviews of most OTC Covid tests:

https://cen.acs.org/analytical-chemistry/diagnostics/covid-home-test-kit-review/99/i20
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: CB123 on August 18, 2021, 12:22:15 PM
Also:  https://viralsolutionsga.com/
Title: Re: Coronavirus
Post by: lighter on August 18, 2021, 03:05:37 PM
Thanks, guys.

We ended up discussing tests with the pharamist who recommended the test we bought. 

DD19 tested Negative for Covid and will re test in 24 hours to make sure we didn't test too early.  Tomorrow will be day 8 after exposure. 

I feel deeeeply relieved and ready to get back to life.

Lighter