Papillon

[Ami]

I hope you are only taking a brief break. I miss your posts--witty, insightful,  and compassionate.
I hope it is only a good vacation you are on.                                                           Ami

[hardtotrust]

So do I

Hugs.

[Ami]

Papillon gave to me so unselfishly, after I lost Scott. He gave me so much kindness and comfort.
Maybe, he was an angel!It could be, a cyberspace angel. Why not(lol)???                 Ami

[Gabben]

Gee. No one wonders about me if I miss 3-4 days of posting.

I could have been kidnapped and held for ramsom.

I could have broken both my legs

I could have lost all my fingers to a machete killer, who does that to smokers.

I could have got my Big Black Boots stuck somewhere and be hanging upside down.

I could have robbed a bank and been thrown in jail.

Wouldn't ya worry?
Izzy

I'd notice you Izzy.

If I want real peace then I have to seek that others will be loved and perferred more than myself.

It can really push some old buttons and touch those old areas in us where we were not loved -- it can be powerfully healing to pray for this sort of humility -- the peace, self-love and self-resepct that grows from wanting others to have more than me at all times is really something not to miss.

Love,
Gabben

[Ami]

Dear Lise,
 I have been discovering the joy of giving love, as well as receiving it, lately. Giving love is so life enhancing.The Bible says it is more blessed(happy) to give than to recieve. When you give, you DO recieve from the giving.   
Thanks for your post,Lise.               Love    Ami

[Certain Hope]

If I want real peace then I have to seek that others will be loved and perferred more than myself.

It can really push some old buttons and touch those old areas in us where we were not loved -- it can be powerfully healing to pray for this sort of humility -- the peace, self-love and self-resepct that grows from wanting others to have more than me at all times is really something not to miss.

Love,
Gabben

Beautifully said, dear Lise. Thank you... with hugs and love,

Carolyn

[Gabben]

Thanks Ami and Carolyn,

I can see some real growth in myself these days. A while back I started praying the litany of humility prayer. Prayer is powerful and life changing.


This weekend I was at an AA meeting, there were some very wise mature and spiritually giant women there. I felt my competitive spirit rear it's head. I could feel my walls of envy wanting to go up. I went home that night and went deep into the south territory of my body to my heart and realized how starved I was for attention and love. It was a child's hunger.

So I went to the cross. I cryed and wailed, letting myself throw a tantrum all the while offering up the suffering for others hunger for love.

My prayers for humility were working, not in the way I expected; such as God to just bing me and make me perfect without pain and struggle -- no God does not work that way. Instead I needed to be able to just embrace that little girl I was who would get jealous and angry when she could not be the center of attention and when she did not get the praise and adoration she needed and deserved as a child....but that is the point ....I needed that attention as a child but NOT now.

I'n not an N -- I am just codependent

Love you both,
Lise

[Certain Hope]

Lise,

I appreciate your post so much. Can you describe what that spirit of competitiveness feels like? I mean, how it manifests?

Was there anger? Or a lack of trust for these women?
Or did you start to compare yourself with them?

Sometimes I have a hard time telling, but think that for me - maybe envy can morph into distrust... when there's really no reason to be suspicious. Does that make sense?

Thanks!
Carolyn

[Gabben]

Sometimes I have a hard time telling, but think that for me - maybe envy can morph into distrust... when there's really no reason to be suspicious. Does that make sense?

Thanks!
Carolyn

The feelings of competitiveness seem rooted in fears...the fear that there is not enough love to go around and that others will be better (more loved) than be. It it a feeling of threat.

I had no idea how deep those emotions go. And, yes, envy is part of the equation along with suspicious thoughts on my part. One of the woman I was talking to told me how she is going to attend a workshop with N saint...I suddenly became tight and nervous all the while reminding myself to trust God and not to worry if N saint slanders me, that is HER problem...but I was not so much concerned with that as I was concerned with my jealous reaction...I wished that when I heard the news from this woman that I was not so threatend...I wish that I had more faith and a calm spirit.

My processing the hunger pains and old hurt was very helpful....going really deep and really feeling the very hungry starved child that I was...then I hug her, it got so much better after that.

[Certain Hope]

I understand. Thank you, Lise.

In the past, I would not recognize envy at all, probably because I was so isolated from and insulated against other people in every way. Even still, my tendancy is to shut down and walk away, rather than to engage in a fight for what might seem like scraps. Because I wouldn't battle, never saw it as envy or competitiveness.

But I do recognize the feeling of being threatened... and the fear. That's what I feel runs through my mother's veins and it explains why she's a miser in every way. I'd not considered that it might really be a fear of there not being enough love and attention to go around, but that's entirely possible. I've often felt that there's not enough ME to go around, and that may just be the flip side of the same coin. Feeling starved for affection at times... and recognizing that the little girl inside needs hugs ... well, that is definitely a truth for me and I've often asked God to hug me, in His own way... and He does. Just sometimes I don't catch on in time and the darkness pf feeling alone can really take ahold quickly.
Sorry, kinda babbling... just trying to sort out loud here. Trying to stay calm and faithful without having that instant, reflexive disengagement... that's my challenge.

You sound really good!

Love,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

I understand. Thank you, Lise.

In the past, I would not recognize envy at all, probably because I was so isolated from and insulated against other people in every way. Even still, my tendency is to shut down and walk away, rather than to engage in a fight for what might seem like scraps. Because I wouldn't battle, never saw it as envy or competitiveness.

Me too...as I have grown I can see myself battling more but there was a time when withdrawl was the only safe choice I could see too.  Basically I would put up walls. Envy is a hider...Recently I read Bob Scourge's Envy - The Enemy Within, he was excellent at pointing out over and over again how envy hides itself from us and how WE ALL HAVE IT yet we tend to believe the constant lie in my head that tells me that I'm not envious.

We are all envious to various degrees - no one is perfect.

What helps to overcome envy is the love and safety of others who will not judge you or condemn you for it.

Your mom did not sound like a safe person so it was hard for you to be real around her, correct? Intuitively you must have known that if you were to dare to be yourself that it would have threatened your mom.

"I've often felt that there's not enough ME to go around,"

This I can relate to too.

The feeling is one of diminishment...I fear the diminishment of self...that I will cease to exist if someone else gets the attention. Now that is all about Nish of me but anyone with a N parent has to at some point cross that line when they realize that they did not get the attention they deserved and needed and as an adult, we are still hungry for it. The difference between N's and us is that we do not manipulate for the attention and there are levels that we would never stoop to.

I think it is a sort of magical thinking wound...the baby was starved for validation and mirroring, the baby see's itself through mom's eyes and feels a sense of oneness with mom. But if mom is not there enough or not mirroring love enough then baby feels threatened and perceives self-dimishishment though magical thinking.

Hope that makes sense.

Hugs to you.

Lise

[Certain Hope]

(((((((Lise)))))) yes, this makes good sense to me.

My mother isn't unsafe in an outwardly antagonistic way, she's just... a blank. I mean, I picture her mirroring virtually nothing back to a baby (me). What she does is radiate tension... and a stony coldness which, now that I can see straight, I think must be fear. Everything about every one threatens her... and I'm not exaggerating. She is just a walking picture of defensive reactions... an overwound spring.
Been rememering how, when I was really little, I stood up tight to a wall, waiting to surprise her as she'd walk down the hall. Kept thinking about that lately, wondering what that was all about... because there was no gleeful embrace afterward, as you might expect. There was no anger or shock, either. There was... nothing, as I recall. Zippo zilch. And I do think that maybe I was just trying to get some sort of response from her... anything. Of course, there was nothing I could do, being invisible (unless in performance mode).

Anyhow, come to think of it, I do believe that every human being is envious... but that it hides deep within us. Just finished reading an excerpt of the book by Bob Sorge at Amazon... really excellent.  One quote really strikes me:  "Envy killed the body of Jesus Christ when He came to this planet the first time, and it's still killing His body today."   I can see that. And I'll be giving some more thought to what you've said about the fear of diminishment... because I do feel diminished these days, but sometimes it's in a very good way (that quiet calm). Other times, there's an old restlessness bubbling beneath the surface... and that must be where the junk is hiding. Doesn't take so much digging to find it anymore, though...  so I guess that's a good thing

With thanks and love,
Carolyn