"You’re so vain, you probably think this song is about you..."

[Hopalong]

I dunno if it's Libertarian or Ayn Rand or if I'm way off the mark in the sources of your reasoning, Mud. Are
they pretty big influences for you?

I'm not great at tit-for-tat argument (not in the "fight" sense but in the debate sense), but I do disagree with
the drift.

Regarding fear of being forced to obey or conform or not have the individual's right as primary imperative
in all circumstances... That's not what I was talking about. Who's got the most power or might impose some
if I'm not hypervigilant.

For me, it's more about a voluntary spiritual recognition of obligation to the vulnerable, to the other. Triggered
by cultivating empathy instead of walling it out. What I mean is that rather than, for example, model charity because
it's a religious rule, I'd like to model charity because my heart is moved to. In that sense, the training stuck. But
I only listened to the good parts. WWJD.

That's what I took away from my childhood religion. It wasn't about fences between individuals and
the world but about welcoming the messy, complicated world in...and holding it close.

With a whole lot of compassion and renewing forgiveness. Necessary (for me).

Also too, I need to remember not to take everything personally. I often flunk.

Hops

[mudpuppy]

For me, it's more about a voluntary spiritual recognition of obligation to the vulnerable, to the other.

That's not collective guilt, responsibility or anything else.
It's exactly what I've been saying.

mud

[Hopalong]

Yebbut.
I DO believe there is such a thing as collective responsibility.
I also think that's different from an individual being forced to feel guilt. (You feel what you feel. Or not.)

I just wish that men would collectively stand up for women and abused children. I wish that men would speak up when they see another man behaving badly to a woman or to a child. If this is man bashing ... well it is not meant to be.

If this happened, routinely, the world would be different. I disagree that cultivating a collective sense of responsibility in our culture would in any way absolve an individual from full responsibility for her/his actions.

Evil flourishes when the good do nothing.

So, if it's uncomfortable that a "class" of those who are (more often) abused asked those who (more often) have more power in the culture to step up to speak out and to protect them (even when as sterling individuals they feel they have no connection to others' bad behavior)...gosh. It's uncomfortable.

Freedom means my freedom to swing ends where your nose begins (sic). But freedom doesn't include freedom from feeling emotionally uncomfortable. Being asked to change is uncomfortable. It's any individual's choice whether or not to not hear others' pleas for help. Or to risk discomfort to advocate for the more vulnerable. Of course. But morally, whether or not they're off the hook is another question.

Personally, I run hard to avoid being judged or feeling guilty. But it sometimes catches up with me anyway. And that's fine if it inspires positive change. If it just makes me angry, that doesn't help anyone.

https://xyfeminist.wordpress.com/the-male-privilege-list/

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

This is kind of off topic, but maybe not entirely.

The covenant group I lead hosted dinner last night for 40 homeless men (we do it annually for two weeks, in tandem with other churches of different faiths, including the Islamic society--some years we host women but in the cold season there are more men on the street). As it always does, it broke my heart again (I figure one's heart needs regular re-breaking). The ones I was sitting with were kind, polite, and so broken. No dental care, some obvious mental illness, others just pale, weary. Broken by the world, by bad luck, by choices, by horrible upbringings, by addictions. My heart breaks for them every time and taking their hands and eating together and just listening is all I know how to do directly.

One young veteran put his head on the table and was just helpless. The other men were like father birds. They put arms around him, helped us serve him, were so protective.

I think although it may not always show on the outside, like these men, many women feel nearly homeless in our world, because of what systemic--make that global--sexism actually does in their lives. It starts young and just pounds at you from the culture year after year. (As it also does its harm to boys, pounding away at them year after year, training them to dominate while offering their bodies up as sacrifices.)

We're all the same in that we need each other. We need protective arms and raised voices and empathy and a willingness to imagine the other more than judge the other.

It's really hard. I had a bad brother and a cold mother but a kind father. I was very lucky in my father.

Just rambling...
Hops

[sea storm]

Fight like a butterfly.... that is what you do, Hops. So well said and not attacking. This is apparently a very hot topic. Has the concept of paternalism and sexism not swept past some people or held them down in boulderbooted submission. Well, happy days for them.

I don't think anger is the answer for anything and I hold back my lower nature when possible. I try to study Buddhism and breathe into the sorrow and anger and disappointment. I see the men who are broken too. They are like all men and kind of beautiful in their humility and kindness. Not barbarians but brothers.  Whether we are our brothers keepers has been debated for centuries. I take care of my side of the street and what you do on yours is your business until I see a vulnerable person unjustly hurt and then I become involved and present. If our brother is behaving badly a word or a nod is a good idea. Takes enormous courage and will not win me any popularity contests.

Cripes, I seem to have offended Mud greatly. Stirred it up. Not sorry.  One can only hope for the blossom to follow.

Sea storm

[Hopalong]

Ahhh, Mud is my friend. And a good man.
I only wish him butterflies.

(And now I won't talk about Mud in the third person any more...)

love
Hops

[mudpuppy]

  The thing I object to is what seems to me poor reasoning or thoughts that are not actually thought through.
It is one thing to say we each have a moral responsibility to speak up for right and to defend the defenseless.
It is quite another to assume that simply by virtue of belonging to a particular group I am partially responsible for the misbehavior of others in that group. If I am partially responsible then the only logical inference is I am partially the cause; I am partly guilty of the crimes. It  was stated that if I am not sufficiently vociferous in condemning certain behavior then I am partly responsible for other more foul behavior by that guy. The obvious implication (in fact it was fairly explicit, not implicit) is I am likewise partly to blame for child molestations and rapes.
  Doesn't seem like it would take Sherlock Holmes to figure out why that is offensive.
  That's the kind of logic which got innocent black men lynched when some white woman was raped; they all do it, they all look alike, they all think alike. How is it any different than the guilt by association and stereotyping Jews have experienced for centuries? All Jews are dirty money grubbers and if there are ones who aren't, they're guilty for not straightening out the money grubbers.
  Now, men do lots more bad things than women, but  plenty of women do plenty of bad things. Are all women responsible for the women who molest kids or rob banks or murder 14 people in cold blood?
  The worst thing about collective guilt is it necessarily relieves the prime movers of some of the blame, and what could be better for an abuser than to be able to play the victim and rationalize their actions? My mommy made me do it. My daddy made me do it. The devil made me do it. Society made me. Other men weren't supportive enough so I just had to bury the bodies in the crawlspace.
  That entire line of thought is not a blossom to bloom it's destructive blame shifting and enabling bs.
  It's perfectly captured in Only a Lad by Oingo Boingo. Look up the lyrics and you'll see the wages of collective guilt.

mud

[Hopalong]

Hmmm. Thanks, Mud. I'm getting a little clearer and also bumping into the limitations (and gifts) of language.

I think what I me myself mean by "collective responsibility" is NOT in a legal sense, or that I as a part of a group must be held accountable by external forces or opinions for individuals' behavior.

What I mean, in this instance, by "responsibility" is the kind of "it takes a village" view of the world. It's a belief, not a law with force attached. Because I have freedom of belief and freedom of opinion and thought.

I believe I have a moral responsibility to the vulnerable (which I do and do not act bravely about). I have absolutely ZERO power to require/force/insist/demand that another person AGREE WITH or SHARE my belief about group moral responsibility. I don't even imagine I can.

But I do have that belief. Germans really have struggled with that one. But they've done so so much to change their culture after walking into the consequences of their collective moral irresponsibility (imo).

I believe that as human beings we have a collective responsibility TO and FOR each other. Nobody can impose collective human guilt. But I'm not talking about guilt. Or judgement. I'm just saying I believe as a species we have a moral responsibility as a species to and for each other (and to animals and the earth). But I'm totally aware that beliefs vary.

I am soooooooooooo offended by sexism and various assumptions about many things. But over the years I've come to be a lot less frequently offended. I think because, for me, choosing to take offense is choosing to stay on the surface of an interaction. Whereas if I go, damn, that offends me...etc etc and then STILL try to return myself to imagining the other's experience...I wind up feeling more connected to the "offender" (or at least creating more space for the possibility of connection) than if I stick to my feeling offended.

When I do stick to it, I observe in myself that I perceive a big and persistent wall between myself and the "offender." Whereas if I let my initial offended response happen as is natural but then allow it to move on through me and not get stuck as a do-or-die I gotta-win, I gotta-be-right position.... then I create space to compassionately (when I can) try again to imagine the other's own experience (which often turns out to be very helpful in showing me how and why they came to believe the thing they believe). When I can do that compassionately, then I don't gotta stay mad.

love
Hops

[mudpuppy]

I have yet to see a village I want raising my kid.

mud

[ann3]

That entire line of thought is not a blossom to bloom it's destructive blame shifting and enabling bs.

Brilliant Mud!  A voice of logic & reason.

[mudpuppy]

A voice of logic & reason.

Of course. I'm a man.