Hiya P:
There really is so much to think about here eh? I've never examined it all this closely before. I guess I'm just living in some kind of mini-ignorant bliss
.
So do you ask for forgiveness for a mistake? (Tricky, is a mistake your ‘fault’, responsibility?)
I've always thought of forgiveness as a kind of gift. A gift I give others. A gift I give myself. A gift others give me.
And if I make a mistake......in ignorance and it causes unintentional hurt to someone else......I feel responsible.
Maybe that's not the right way to feel but it is what I feel. I guess I think: "It's not their fault" and "It's no one's fault" but in my over-responsible way......I take the blame.......I feel sorry for hurting them, even though by mistake........and so I hope by saying so......they will forgive me.
Suddenly......I remember something that happened in my life. My mother and her sister were very close, emotionally, but they lived 500 km away from eathother. Still.....they managed to visit......both families......as often as possible. We used to go to their place for a couple of weeks in the summer and they used to come to ours for the same. We went at Christmas and Easter and Thanksgiving. Thus, I spent a lot of my time with my cousins (a girl, two years younger, who I felt close with, and a boy, the same age, who seemed jealous of our closeness and out to sabotage it---once ...he told her she was allergic to me and she believed him, but that's another story).
Anyway.......my girl cousin and I spent all this time together and in between we were allowed to phone, long distance, and we wrote letters. We wrote endearing things and shared our deepest secrets, feelings, etc.
Then tragedy struck. My aunt, mom's sister, died, very suddenly. She was only 46 years old.
We were at their place and the adults decided they would drive to our place, 500 km south. My mom had a new car and had never driven all that way.....up and back before and she was nervous. And I wanted to go to the pancake house. There is was on the left side of the road and I shouted: "There it is!!" and my mom stepped on her brakes too quickly and my uncle and aunt's car, behind us.....bumped into us. There was no real damage to either vehicle.
A day after we all arrived at our place, my aunt had a diabetic reaction and went into a coma. She was rushed to the hospital. She was unconscious for a week and then died.
My boy cousin, who was 11, told my girl cousin, who was 9, that it was my fault their mother had died because if I hadn't wanted and yelled to go to the pancake house, their mother would not have been put through the shock of that accident and that's what caused her to go into her coma and later die.
I tried and tried to keep in touch with those two cousins and my uncle after my aunt died (as did my mother). As I grew up, I kept trying.
They were cold and uncommunicative until finally........my boy cousin blurted out that this was the reason why!! I was responsible for their mother's death and that was that. I apologized, explained that I was a kid and it was a mistake. I was sorry and sure didn't mean to cause such a thing to happen (even though....I know it's ridiculous.......and this was probably not the cause of her death). I took full responsibility for my "mistake" and begged for forgiveness. Nothing I said or could say or do would ever change their minds. And I, after trying and trying some more, finally gave up and we lost touch.
So ya.......you are so right about how tricky it is about who's fault is who's and what's what P. In my cousin's heads........I was at fault. It would have done me no good not to take on the fault, I think. It would have proved to them how selfish I was.......just like I was when I wanted to go to the pancake house, instead of picking a place on the right side of the road, the easier side to turn off on, or let someone else decide where to go to eat. I was, in their minds (and voices because they did say all of this)......selfish and responsible for her death. The only possible way I could see of ever keeping communication open long enough for real understanding to come.........was to express my sorrow.......take on the blame......and beg for forgiveness.
Had I argued: "No. It wasn't my fault. These things happen. She was diabetic. It was her disease that killed her. Not the shock of that small accident. I was a kid. Give me a break. etc"
Wouldn't they have proof of my selfishness......my not being a responsible person.......
I couldn't change their belief. And they were kids when this horrible thing happened to them. They lost the mother they loved with all of their little hearts. They were both devastated. The despair was immense. They needed someone or something to blame because they were just kids too. And I reminded them of what life used to be like......every time they heard from me.....every time I tried to connect with them......I have a feeling......it hurt just hearing from me.
It was kinder to let them go.......to give up and easier for them......not to have me around.
It didn't do me any good to take responsibility for a mistake or a mistaken belief but it might have...it could have....maybe? I don't know. I still don't know what would have helped. Maybe there is nothing? It was the only gift I could think of to give them.
Gosh he did much, much worse than that. That was very mild. He was sacked though, after I left, I was probably instrumental in that happening, but it was overdue. He wasn’t particularly awful as a person, merely stupid, ignorant and had an unrealistic image of himself. He was a bully too but I doubt he took any sick pleasure from it. I almost feel sorry for him. But not quite.
Sounds like an awful experience. Did it leave scars? I'm glad he's fired!! There are too many bully bosses!!
Will you forgive me? - but the person doesn’t accept responsibility and is saying this as a standard line to stop conversation;
Oh Yes! Particularly some abusers eh? The plead for forgiveness, with who knows what intentions, but they don't do a thing to change the way they behave.....take no steps to correct their behaviour. It destroys trust.
I forgive you – because I’m better than you and I have the power to forgive you, you don’t have any power. I forgive you because I’m morally superior and you’re a lesser mortal. I forgive you because you need forgiving, you’re so bad but you can’t help yourself. I forgive you because I don’t give a damn about what you’ve done, it doesn’t matter to me. I forgive you because you don’t understand yourself, but I understand you – better than you do…
I feel sad thinking this has been your experience. The words: "I forgive you" could be a real trigger that start the wheels of mistrust turning eh?
What I mean, when I say I forgive you is:
I forgive you because I understand and believe you meant no harm, made a poor choice, had misleading thoughts and aren't perfect. I'm not perfect either and have done the same thing (made mistakes, poor choices, had weird thoughts that lead me in the wrong direction) so that makes it easier for me to understand. I forgive you because I believe you have learned and will do your best not to do the same thing again. I forgive you because I believe you are a good person who is only trying to behave as well as you can, like most other people probably are. Like I am. I forgive you because I'm your friend and I want to understand and I don't want to have angry feelings or resentment in me against you and have no reason to, now that you've explained and I understand. I forgive you because I believe you are sorry for the hurt I felt, regardless of blame but because you are thinking of me and my pain and not focussing on defending yourself but on doing what you can to help me feel better. The least gift I can give you in return and to myself is to forgive, under the circumstances. It almost seems more selfish than generous, considering how well you've handled the situation.
I don't want to be selfish and hope you feel better too. Is there anything I can say that would help you? Anything bothering you that it might help to talk about, in regard to this whole thing? Or maybe better by pm? Let me know, please?
This is a really tough idea for me, that forgiveness is a mutual thing, although I accept that it is, I just don’t see people doing it without being put in a room with a mediator of some kind. I haven’t mixed with anyone with this depth of understanding.
I keep saying it takes two to tango but it surely does, doesn't it? I think it does. Communication is hard work. You did your share.......I did mine........right? We don't give up easily P.
That's gotta be a good thing.
I'm sure people do it all the time. That's how they stay married for 75 years. That's how great life long friendships happen. Maybe not about every little thing......all this understanding and communicating......but that's the really big and generous thing about forgiving. Sometimes, small stuff is forgiven without much fuss at all. And a lot of small stuff....can add up to a big mess, so maybe it's a good thing to just forgive it along the way? That's what I imagine. Mind you, I haven't been married for 75 years and I don't have a life long friend, so there you go.
If I ask someone to forgive me, I’m judging them to be at a stage where they’re not angry or resentful any more. Isn’t that a bit presumptuous of me?
I suppose so. Timing can be really tricky. The way I think I usually say it is......."I hope you will forgive me or be able to find it in your heart to forgive me......or one day forgive me". I think I'm also expressing my desire to connect again, especially, if I've taken responsibility for my behaviour, expressed my remorse, offered to do whatever possible to make up for the damage I've caused, and am willing to take steps to ensure I don't repeat my behaviour. At that point, and depending on the person/situation.......it seems reasonable to hope or express that hope for their forgiveness.
But you are absolutely right that it is definitely the other person's choice whether to forgive or not, when they feel ready and able.
Or is this about power? If I ask for forgiveness, I’m putting myself at risk of you saying no. I guess
I think that too. I mean, they can now bring down the hammer on your head and say: "Nope. Never in a million years". Making all of your efforts seem invaluable. All your explaining....a waste of good air.......and all your other indications of being responsible/making amends........unworthy. They can do that. Yep. Big power there, I think.
Like me and my parents? I’d rather be silent than talk to them now.
Thing is.......they aren't likely to come to you.....begging for forgiveness.....showing remorse for their behaviour, taking responsibility and all the rest of it, are they? So the real question is.........
Do you now........forgive them.....anyway?
Or do you hold onto your feelings of anger and resentment and only show them......by being silent?
Or is the silence a way of protecting yourself from any more of their harmful behaviour (or neglect/whatever)?
And do you forgive.......release whatever feelings are tormenting you.....for your own good?
Selfish?
How can I possibly say that? I just like to. It's good to be selfish, in this instance, imo.
((((((((((((P)))))))))))))) This feels like another 20,000'er.
Sela
