On Discovering the SELF..

[Neko]

seeker, I can really relate to what you said:

This is one of the things I struggle with all the time. The "who do you think you are?" voice in my head that keeps me small and invisible. I was known in my career to be an excellent quiet worker. I did the job well. Period. But deep down I wanted to be recognized for it but couldn't toot my horn because I was conditioned not to. My Ndad would tell me I was "willful" or "self-serving" or roll his eyes. When presented with a good report card, my mom would tell me, "yes, we know we don't have to worry about you."

The good, quiet worker who wants to be noticed but won't toot her own horn - describes me to a T! Though I work as a translator, I do my best work as an editor - "perfecting" things for the really tough-to-please clients. Just like you, as a kid I'd bring home great report cards, and all I'd get was "oh, no need for us to worry about you." No praise, no smiles, just indifference. My parents didn't even attend awards ceremonies - "well, that's to be expected from you. You always want to be noticed by everyone. Why don't you try failing a class sometime? It would be good for your character."

My editing, unfortunately, gets me about the same thing, because it's always those persnickety clients who request that extra "perfection" for their translations. The worst is when, in a 50-page document, they point out one - count it, one - typo and complain. Then there are the translators I'm supposed to give feedback to - some are quite open to that, many aren't. It doesn't matter how careful and non-judgemental I am, if I find a clear, major mistake (happens rarely, but it does happen), they'll get on my case for telling them. So I'm caught between clients who'll complain about the most minor of things, and a few translators who refuse to even consider the idea that they might make big mistakes that need corrected. (Just a note: I only care about mistakes when I work. Mistakes outside of that really do not bother me, I make plenty myself!)

The agencies I work for assume that since I'm reserved and busy most of the time, they don't need to tell me "job well done", so I rarely hear it. The compliment is sort of implied, I suppose, since they keep me busy all the time. But like you, I'd so love to hear it and yet, whenever I do, I think, "Oh they're just saying that because they want something out of me... are they gonna ask me to work a weekend now?" I've really had to get on my own case a few times and say "just accept the d**ned compliment, for pete's sake!"

I've gone off and vented, haven't I? Heh, sorry, always do that!

I too have realized how jealous my Nmom is of me, it's a painful realization. I've also wondered if I'm making it up, too, because of how much my mother and father drilled the "you're a selfish attention-seeker!" criticism into me. If I think my mom's jealous of me, that means there's something to be jealous of, and how dare I think I'm so much better than someone that they be jealous of me, etc. etc. And yet it's obvious... my mother hates everything about me that she doesn't have. Even my brother's come to see that, especially when he had a serious girlfriend - he got to experience our mother's jealous wrath firsthand

[CC]

Hi Neko,

Thanks for sharing your feelings about your mom with us.  Its really good that you vented, especially since you said you tend to be the quiet one.  I'm sorry you don't get the praise you deserve. For what its worth, I think you are an excellent writer, communicative and grammatically correct!  (I didn't see any typos either ).  It is interesting the connection that you made with your job and (an important "behind the scenes" career).  Seems almost indicative of how your mom made you feel... succeeding... but quietly as to not draw attention..  And required perfectionism - something we seemed to all inherit from our Nparents.

My mother is also jealous of my successes, I believe, but her method of thwarting it is to make me feel as if I will never be quite as good as her, or never quite good enough.  She is an expert in every area, and apparently even in those that I have experience in and she has none! Because she is older and considers herself "wiser", she will undoubtedly relate some experience with another person she knows who I can learn more from -or compare some ridiculously miniscule experience that she had that slightly resembles what the subject is   Just as a couple of examples, my mother never had a career (other than modeling for Penneys catalog when she was 18)  and doesn't have a driver's license, but is constantly giving me advice about cars and business administration (my career area).

My resulting behavior growing up was not as polite as yours, I'm afraid -  always quickly wounded by criticism and constantly (but discreetly) seeking compliments to make me feel better about myself.  This has improved greatly in the last few years with all the realizations of origin and lots of therapy.


Anna and Cathi,

I too agree with the philosophy that we are all EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AT EVERY MOMENT.    Thank you for reminding us.  We can take some comfort in that, especially during restless times.

[Anna]

Anna:
I loved this observation of yours.

Thanks.  I try very hard to keep a positive outlook without diminishing my voice.  I used to believe that I had to be grateful for every crumb.  Some days I still walk a fine line especially when I'm feeling like that little girl.

Again, thanks for listening and acknowledging --

[nihil]

Hello CC,

Concerning your thoughts on why you abandon your projects and can never really finish things up... I was thinking about that today, and I was lead to the idea of a self-defeating purpose set into us by our parents (or spouse). We are brainwashed into believing that whatever enterprise we set up, whatever project we cherish for ourselves cannot come to fruition. We are failures and we should act accordingly. Also, and this is still screwed up in my mind, but what the hell : We self destruct or destroy what we do because then no one can touch us. "I screwed up? I failed? So what! I didn't want this anyway..." There's some really twisted logic at work here.

There are two parts to this faulty logic (in my opinion) :

1. We (I) feel we (I) don't deserve success, we (I) don't deserve accomplishment (brainwashing by our parents).

2. Screwing things up ourselves, self-destructing in other words, prevents us from taking the full responsibility of our engagements. Sure I screwed up, but no one can touch me. I put myself down faster than anyone else can do it. It's an inverted "wishful thinking" formula.

What I am writing about right now is only intuitive. I am just starting on this road to self-knowledge and pattern recognition. Anyway, hope it helps, and in any case, I already know that what I am writing sucks, so don't bother criticizing...    

nihil

[Anonymous]

Hi There, just checking in to see the latest responses on this thread.  Welcome nihil, I believe you to be a newcomer.  I think your intuition is correct about the two areas of faulty logic. The problem is, they are subconscious 'reactions'.  As indicated in the book I am currently reading - which by the way I recommend highly - "If You Had Controlling Parents" - the voice inside saying those 'you will fail' things is referred to as the internalized parents.  We can disengage physically from our Nparents, but to ignore the internalized parents is an entirely different task.  I have yet to read the part of this book that tells you how - I hope it will shed some light on changing!  

I don't know about you all, but even after a couple of years of hard work and healing I still struggle with understanding what I am really feeling at the moment - if the feelings are MINE or those that my parents instilled in me.  Sometimes I feel as if I am outside of my own body - watching myself act instead of BEING and FEELING.

An example is coming up right now. My husband and I are talking about having a halloween costume party.  Every time I have a party, I obsess about everything from the house being completely decorated to serving a ridiculous spread of gourmet food. Subconsciously (or now, more consciously   ) I have always needed to have people leave with the feeling that I can throw a party like no one else-competitive that my house has to be the "nicest".  I know on some level I'm seeking admiration and validation (everyone always raves about the food and decorating, and for a moment there is the "yes, CC you ARE a good girl" that my inner child seeks - the approval junkie as the seeker mentioned).  

Friends offer to bring things, but I tend to decline because the Nperfectionist in me thinks I can do it better (sorry   ) And usually, the entertainment we provide is so exhausting that I don't enjoy myself because I am too worried about how everything is presented - then at the end of the night when everyone is ready to leave I start drinking to relax and want everyone to stay longer  


But some of it I really enjoy (I think??)  I am passionate about food, and really would like to share this passion with friends - and I am forcing myself to be a little more social per my therapist's recommendation.  I want to be more genuine with my friends.  I know on a cognitive level I don't need to impress them (they're already impressed - I want them to see more of the real me, whatever that is!). But Separating childhood needs from what my true current feelings are -from what truly makes me happy - no success.. I really don't know how to do this.

I have often visualized myself throwing one dinner party a month, with just a few couples and a different theme (Asian, Hawaiian, French, etc.) talking about it for over two years but I keep putting it off because the idea overwhelms me.. I can't do anything halfway so I feel compelled to be extravagant and it seems like too much work  

I don't have any special method for dealing with this halloween party situation, but this time I have awareness that I have not have for the precedents.  I thought perhaps I would write down what I would normally do for a party like this, and then try to cross off half of what's on the list and go with that. I will only make things I can make a day ahead, and serve at room temp. Don't know if it will work, but I'm willing to give it a go.  

Echo, I loved your garden reference.  I too, enjoy the garden. I feel as if I am a healthy rosebush that has thorns and leaves but just can't seem to come to bloom.  I feel lost, inside myself.. where am I?  I know you have felt this way too.

Signalfire, I looked for that book "writing the mind alive" at the library, there was no listing.  Would you tell me the author's name so I can look on Amazon or something?  Would really appreciate it..

Kind of getting chit-chatty so I'd better sign off, love and peace to all of you. Thanks for your support as always.

[CC]

That was me CC above, I don't understand thought I was logged in??

[nihil]

Hello again CC,

Concerning that Halloween party comment : I can totally relate to that. I have often organized "discussion meetings" at my place where I would invite friends and aquaintances over to have discussions on various philosophical, psychological or sociological issues. Every time I felt stuck up and was always wondering if people were having a good time. I always ended up feeling dissatisfied if anyone left with less than a radiant expression of total bliss on their face.

I am extremely empathic, the sight or mention of pain raises my blood pressure and I start to choke, almost literally. Putting everyone's comfort before mine has always been my way of acting. Therefore I was the perfect N-target. Starting from my parents, my first real close friend, a business associate, an 11 year marriage then a one year fling with a psychopathic narcissist (which broke up my marriage, my family, and almost killed me)... There's a pattern there for me to understand.

I have now cut off any toxic relationships left in my life (in fact, almost all my relationships - friends, workplace aquaintances, and now unfortunately my parents), and have installed a heavy-duty N-detector in my brain. But this isolation is painful and I find myself to be grappling with my own deficiencies and failures. I feel that I shouldn't expose anyone to who I am until I feel confident enought that I can establish relationships on equal terms, with a dose of healthy distance between others and myself. I have to relearn who I really am, and control my emotions and compulsiveness.

The idea of redeveloping your identity through your professional endeavors sounds good to me. But I always thought that having one's sense of self rely on one's professional profile is quite limited. Now I am not suggesting that that is what you are doing. In fact, I quite understand your need to redefine yourself in that manner without the "damaged goods" label stuck on you and moving away from pathologizing every aspect of your life.

Professional success is important. It validates us and gives us means to accomplish ourselves materially (which is not evil in itself) but I think that it is a facet of a more complex self. I have to balance my identity with who I think I am, who I think others think I am, my parental responsibilities, my social duties, my artistic inclinations and my search for meaning. All this while trying to let the different voices in my head hold a healthy dialog. Fear, strength, detachment, experience, subconsious and inexplainable entities are all vying for attention from my consciousness and are fighting to grapple my will. What I am trying to do now is to let those voices express themselves freely, let them vent and then let the other voices express themselves in a balanced peaceful inner environment. I try not to get carried away by one of those voices. I am vying for completeness.

I think that this is my life's struggle : balance. Morbid imagination vs love of life, pessimism vs eternal hope, self-criticism vs loving who I am. External influence has always played an excessive role in this quest so I am trying to build a protective area in my head where I can be clear from outside influences and where I can take time to decide what's in my best interest, according to my fundamental values, my lifelong engagements (ie. : my daughters) and what my soul tells me is right. I believe there is deeper meaning to life than this whole masquerade which we label "reality" and the experiences I have had with narcissists and psychopaths will help me get there.

I know this sounds like grandiosity, vanity and what not. Thing is though, I believe that life is much more than what we are led to believe and that finding out it's hidden meaning is fundamental to my happiness. By the way, I am an atheist and am also very wary of religions, new age philosophies and pre-packaged spirituality. There must be a meaning to all of this... Maybe this is just another mind trap and I'm setting myself up again... Argh... there's just no certainty in me anymore... Well I guess that's a certainty...

Anyway... thinking out loud...

I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to express my thoughts. With respect,  

nihil

[CC]

Nihil said

I have to relearn who I really am, and control my emotions and compulsiveness

When you figure it out, will you please clue me in??

This is my biggest problem too - and particularly with my Nmom.  Most of what gets me into trouble with her is my constantly giving her more information than I should (perhaps in an attempt for closeness or acceptance) and then it is used as ammo against me at a later date.

This is hard for people who are intuitively empathetic.  And many of us, children of Ns, are just that way.  We are capable of intimacy, our Nparents were/are not.  We want to share everything with everyone - But correct me if I'm wrong, some of it is an unconscious attempt for admiration and love that we did not receive.  So we come full circle, don't we..

I look forward to hearing about your progress in this specific area.  I am just now going to start practicing restraint (not telling my mom financial, emotional or other details about myself) when I see her this Friday.  I cannot completely cutoff  my relationship with this elderly woman, nor do I necessarily want to .  But I must learn how to disengage more emotionally - especially since I see her once a week. The irony is, even SHE says I tell everyone everything about me, and nothing is sacred.

I am conflicted about this though, because if we are consciously restraining my emotions and speech - isn't this a form of voicelessness? On the other hand, we are protecting ourselves from further manipulation and retaliation.  We are empowered by not reacting.  It is so confusing..

You are not at all being grandiose or vain in your discussion of the "bigger picture".  I think you articulate beautifully something that many people don't take time to ponder - or think but don't speak of because of their religiously affiliated guilt.. Anyway, we could have a discussion on a philisophical level, but that's for another message board!  

[nihil]

Hello CC,

We seem to be going through the same struggles simultaneously. There's not much I can give you in terms of advice right now. I am in a state of confusion, pain, fear, but I am also going through some moments of deep realization of what's really going on inside and outside of myself. I feel that I have reached a deeper level of understanding - this is a process which will continue for my whole life, I know this now.

Concerning my parents, I face the same dilemna. They were not very cruel, mostly absent and indifferent to my identity. They had (and still have) very poignant issues to deal with. But now I realize that they have their own path to trod. There's not much I can do for them except than to deal fairly with them and show them love. I am not their problem. So I try to do what your trying, I say little, listen to them and keep my problems for myself. I see them once a week also (they are the grandparents of my daughters and they treat them fairly well).

I think I am at a stage where I have to rediscover self, set up boundaries and learn to work on who I am alone. I am sort of "toning down" outside reality right now. I avoid humans, I read alot, I think, I write and I work to solve issues. I am considering therapy but I don't know of what kind and who with. It might be a valuable help, not sure about it yet though.

What helps me right now the most is isolation and creativity. I compose music, I perform, I write poetry, I work hard, and I try to take really good care of my daughters (going out, being attentionate, doing homework, being patient, cooking good meals, etc). I feel that I have alot of time to catch up with them (since I was so absent myself before that - absent to them, but more tragically absent to myself).

Anyway, thinking out loud again.

Here's a link to a text which might help you (found it today), it's about building a spiritual immunity system and building behaviour to help you face the psychospiritual chaos brought about by this mad reality and it's dangerous inhabitants (narcissists, psychopaths and such).

http://www.spiritreleasement.org/intro/protection.html

Here's one about breaking up with a narcissist :

http://www.jungcircle.com/stew.htm

I hope my words help (and the texts), I know yours do. Take care,

nihil