Double Jeopardy; A; WTH is the matter with women. Q; What is Men, Alex?

[Hopalong]

ALL of your comments were about fixing me.
Do you do that to any of the women who come here with relationship issues?

Pretty much, I think I don't. [edit] I think practically everything I write about here is what I/we can do inside ourselves, since we can't control others...anybody correct me if I'm wrong.

None of us hate men or have frizzy hair and Ivy League degrees. Well, JHU is almost Ivy League but counter-snotty while prestigious. I never understood that, but I was in the graduate writing program where we were concentrating on not shaving our legs. I am a humorless feminist, remember.

Seriously, sorry I wasn't helpful, Mud. It takes two for anything to work and just one can end something, I know. I just worry about your pattern of focusing on analysis of the other and what you were describing sounded as it sounded to me. Pattern spotting in oneself CAN help, I'll hold to that, but maybe there's also a pattern in the types of people you're attracted to. Or maybe it's both. And I do think it'd be valuable to try a different kind of therapist. That's one reason I see a man. I need to avoid my echo chamber sometimes, to get a new perspective.

My insights are worth two cents but hey, they were free. (If I were a man-hater I sure wouldn't work so hard to be helpful! And like Lighter, I've missed you too.)

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hmmm. (veering off in another direction)

Been following along. Firstly, yes - sometimes "fast" works just fine. BTDT. But in both cases (for me), I'd been around the guys long enough to see how they interacted with others, get a sense of their values and the way their minds operated - so when the "invitation" was made for a one on one interaction (coffee I think) I already had a decent expectation that they were decent chaps. And then, it was off to the races for relationship development.

Mike & I spent days/weeks talking through past relationships - complete with analysis of our own complicity in issues - so we had an overview of where the other's buttons were. He was so honest & forthcoming about his own previous failings (for those women) I was shocked. But it also let me explain that I'm not "those women". Operate under different expectations, redlines, etc. Or CAN, at any rate. That opened the discussion on what we really both - deep down - wanted. And it was very simple really.

Mud, I think it's possible that the new woman fears she's not able to manage her schedule well enough, to let herself enjoy exploring a new relationship. That perhaps she's got a conflict-idea in her had about HAVING to choose between career and relationship... and while both are important, some "should" is driving her to focus on career over relationship and trying to do both - well - is overwhelming her.

Without any direct feedback as to why she pulled back so suddenly, all a person can do is guess. But it sure sounds to me like one of those internal self-tangles people who've been through some life-crap and abusive situations deal with that get in the way of normal life. So, she's denying her emotional life for the pragmatic work-a-day career option... perhaps, for rebuilding a sense of being secure in her own self?

Above is all speculation since there's so little to go on. And filtered through the continuum of connection/emotional attachment to autonomy... which is only my way of looking at things (at the moment).

It also occurs to me, that mud's wanting to talk through whatever "it" is... doesn't preclude the lady from taking enough space to do her own thinking and sussing out the tangle herself.

[mudpuppy]

Hops,
My humorous reference was to what the female therapist you suggested I try might be like, not to you or anyone else here.

I analyze things to try to understand them and the more inexplicable they seem the more I analyze.

The unfortunate fact is after 40 virtually any single person, man or woman, has been wounded. I have and so has my friend. Most of the women in this bracket have been wounded by bad men, hence the title of the thread. This woman has never known the love of a guy like me, only chumps.
I'll always believe our wounds are so perfectly complimentary that we would have made a great couple if only we had given it a chance to evolve instead of ending it without trying. And so I will pray for another chance with her in the future some time; maybe the end of the year or maybe longer, IDK. She has a very forgiving nature and a strong faith so I'm very slightly hopeful.

sKePTiKal,
Agree with pretty much what you wrote, but I think it's beyond just balancing work and relationship. Her emphasis on it and reference to its harm in her past indicates to me  she was deeply hurt by it previously and is afraid of being hurt that way again. The fact that one relatively minor mention of it by me started the rift and that she could never give me a clear or consistent reason for breaking up along with her sensitivity to my speculating that fear might be the real reason she broke it off makes me think it is the root issue. Who wants to get hurt again if that is all you know from putting your heart out there?

Edit in; I should add her parents were divorced when she was young though she gets along with all of them. And her step dad who raised her passed away within the last year. Not sure the first still effects her much but the latter is still a deep hurt in her especially as I believe he is the first close person she has lost.

mud

[Hopalong]

This is probably tainted by my personal experience, but for some women, their job (at 75% pay) is massively important to their sense of safety and meaning in the world. I would have been utterly incapable of disregarding that for a new romance...would need to know someone MUCH MUCH better/longer before throttling back a driven devotion to work.

It's not unusual. Depending on how it was framed, she may have felt smothered by your pouting about the demands of her work. Since she is probably already stretched to her limit to manage that job, and anybody who is going to sulk about it is not the supportive partner she needs.

Another personal projection. Someone who wants that insistently to BE THE ONE to fix me, fix my life...is a hair's breadth from wanting to CONTROL me. What one interprets or intends as "love and support" another can experience as "hover and smother." Many women can't take it. And it's not just a sign of "damage" -- in some, it's a sign of health.

It's very hard to find the right chemistry and balance with this stuff. But I'm familiar with what the panic of a good man wanting to control, assuming he knows best for me, explaining me to myself, analysing me with presumptions, etc. -- feels like. Good men can trigger it.

[mudpuppy]

She does not make 75% of anyone. She makes a lot of money and can retire in only 3 1/2 years.
As far as wanting to fix her life, she said she was looking for a "house husband" precisely because she doesn't have time to take care of herself.
Since I could work out of the house and can do all the projects she wants to do we seemed a perfect fit to make her life less stressful and her more in control of it. We spent hours drawing up plans of additions and landscaping I could do to make her place just what she, and I, wanted it to be.
As far as me overwhelming her with solutions and fixes, after looking at our texts, I actually did give her her space. A week after she had asked me to give her space and a couple of days after the talk where it was obvious we were only going to be friends she thanked me for my "patience through this tough time" and that it showed my character and that she really appreciated me. The very next evening after I had done a few things around the house for her she thanked me profusely for that and then added a not too nice PS about some stuff about her dad's tools which was a very confusing mixed message
I really only got goofy with too many words the next week after she officially broke it off at which point it obviously didn't cause the breakup. That was pretty much baked in the cake when she said she needed her space almost two weeks before that, IMO. The pouting consisted literally of me saying I was a little down because I was disappointed she had to work part of the weekend. With that explanation was also that I already recognized it was me being a doofus not that she had done anything wrong or that I had a problem with her job, but the damage was done.
In any event she's gone and I'll get over it. If God intends it to be then we will have another chance to do it His way rather than our own.

mud

[Hopalong]

I hope so, for you Mud. I hope happiness comes. You deserve to be happy.

What resonated strongly for me in your posts is something that feels so familiar it took me right back to those relationships of mine. The ones during which I learned it was...me. Not bad me or guilty me but anxious lonely me who couldn't see myself clearly. The objects of my affections obsessions were several different people over time, sequentially. But ME, that pattern was the same.

I remember obsessively looking into every encounter or message exchanged for an explanation that would be LOGICAL (he said or promised this so of course I thought that). And, in fact, I was looking for evidence or exchanges that I could use in a way as EVIDENCE that my hurt was unjustified.

It was. In the sense that life's not fair and I had to learn to accept a No (or to read it in behavior if I was getting mixed signals in words). And a couple times, the other DID do me wrong (lying, etc). Still, more than once, I was devastated that the yearning I felt was not reciprocated. Or the other, initially enthusiastic, changed their mind. I had a horrible, terrible, awful time accepting their No.

Looking back on those unrequited agonies, I realized that there was no peace in the relationship. There was desire and drama and anxiety and tension and urgency and speed, which I confused with love. Passion don't pass the potatoes. Though it adds spice.

What I fantasize about now is more agape plus affection plus commitment plus shared interests plus chemistry. At 68, I still enjoy chemistry, but passion is not priority one any more. Old-shoe comfort means more, affectionate and peaceful trust and belonging. I guess, for me, I'd describe what I seek as powerful tenderness.

You're still a young feller, and I am certain a handsome one...I wish you powerful tenderness. May you find it and be well. Sending hope!

Hugs
Hops
This might be an interesting read. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/201104/the-rescuer-identity
I remember you talking about how hurt and damaged the other young woman was too, which made me think of the Rescuer thing. Might not resonate or maybe bits of it.

[mudpuppy]

Thanks Hops. Problem is I don't know they're hurt and damaged til after I get involved. I'm not trying to rescue anyone that I know of. This gal seemed like a strong, independent, healthy gal, then out of the blue what had been a couple of comments about her schedule turns out to be a trigger so sensitive one little mention that I was a little disappointed blows up a relationship in which she was planning our wedding two days before it blew up.

There is a lot to bother me about this present blow up but what is bothering me the most now is her insistence before we stopped contacting each other that her feelings weren't as intense as mine and that my talking about marriage so early was a red flag. She talked about it more than I did going so far as to pick a date and she was talking about it right up to the very end. She wasn't even honest about how long the relationship lasted. I still have the texts from the two months we were happy. If her feelings weren't as intense as mine then she's a great actor. If you change your mind fine. But if you change it for no good reason, and she has given none, don't try to justify it by making up stuff about what happened.

I didn't have a problem with the other gal saying no because she said it right off the bat. I had a problem with her acting like I was some kind of nutcase when I went out of my way to avoid her.

Everybody has their wounds, but why try to project yours onto the other party?

mud

[Hopalong]

I can understand what isn't working for you about HER behavior.

What I think you might be skipping quickly past is:

my talking about marriage so early was a red flag

What if, in addition to all the things she has done wrongly or unfairly...this is also true?

That YOU declaring love and zooming to marriage talk immediately is, in fact, a big huge Red Square sized red flag?

What if THAT'S true? What if it means something pretty big about what's going on inside you? What if you would find peace, and renewed hope, and steadier center, and reality-based confidence, and a calmer core about love...if you dug into what is that about?

I trooooooooly believe that once your focus is off HER, and onto YOURSELF (not in blame, but in courageous curiosity) your growth and possibilities will take off like Richard Branson.

Slowly at first and then...atmosphere. You need to create your own happier atmosphere. You deserve to breathe without this angst. Yay, therapy.

Hugs
Hops

[mudpuppy]

Well, I suppose I'd need more data to decide whether it's a problem for me. Maybe your own experiences make it a problem for you but not necessarily one for me?
I've only done it twice in my life.
The first time it led to the best relationship of anyone I've ever met.
The second time the woman agreed with me and was planning our wedding. You seem to be blowing past the part that it WAS NOT a red flag to her at the time. She says it is now but it obviously wasn't. That is not what broke us up. Her pain from her previous marriage did and that related not to a quick wedding but to her fear of being hurt like she was by her last guy. Had she not had this internal hurt we would very likely be on the way to a happy wedding. A good argument could be made that our relationship going as fast as it did exposed what was eventually going to come out anyway. The only way our relationship stayed on track was I was perfect on her score card up until I made a comment about her schedule. That's all it took to blow everything up. Obviously I was not going to remain perfect for ever, so better to blow up then than later, IMO.
You seem to find it hard to believe people can fall in love quickly and genuinely and that early talk of weddings is inherently, in the case of two people who fall in love quickly, a bad thing. I know people who have done it quick and been happily married for decades. I was myself.  I know people who did it slowly and carefully and when they finally got hitched hated it and each other. I don't think there's a cookie cutter for these things and I'm not sure the pressure that a whirlwind romance creates doesn't weed out which ones can make it and which ones can't. She obviously can't, so if we do get back together some day as I hope, then I will take it slow and steady and let her know that now that I know what her flashpoint is it will never be reached again. Had I known the first time around I would never have complained because it was just a minor deal to me, but obviously not to her. But, because it is an unresolved hurt in her it was inevitable I was going to hit that nerve eventually. Until she faces it and deals with it it's not going to go away and she will not be able to have a successful relationship with anyone.
  My problem was, IMO, not the one you describe but was only revealed after she ended our relationship. I still had so much unresolved pain and issues surrounding losing Mrs Mudpup that I could not accept losing this gal. It hurt SO bad, worse even than losing Mrs M, that I spent a week driving her further and further away by trying like a fool to keep her. I was never mean but I was idiotic. I doubt any one anywhere anytime has ever talked anyone back like that. I will always be grateful to her for telling me off so that I could see what a jerk I was rather than just blocking me and clamming up. It was her telling me off that let me start healing that mess I was refusing t recognize. Because she is a trained therapist and a genuinely charitable gal I hope and believe that as time passes she will recognize that and think more charitably of me than she does right now. Time will tell. I also hope the same happens with her and this episode forces her to deal with what she knows is there but withdraws to her lonely mountaintop to avoid dealing with.

I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to make me think about this stuff Hops. Just because I don't agree with a lot of what you say doesn't mean it isn't valuable and since I'm hardly wise I may eventually find out you may very well be more right than I know.

mud

[Hopalong]

You are a hurtin' cowpoke, ((((Mud)))).
I think you shouldn't beat up on yourself so much. You are also a good person.
Clearly, so is she.
Something triggered something that represented something. I dunno.
I think the pout-moment was the switch.
I have a screaming Mimi in my head who can also appear in response to a complaint that even though intended lightly, triggers this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GsEXQwBzxo

Just so you know how infallible Pope Hops is...my parents:

Met May 1st 1945
Engaged June 1st
Married July 1st
Together 50 years

My father took her out almost every evening during May, except Saturdays. They ate dinner at a rooftop restaurant looking out at the lights of DC. Pretty heady time to be there, right after the war.
My mother once told me she wondered about Saturdays and he said, Saturday? That's bath night!

Hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Mike and I decided to take our frendship to the next level in April. In June, he bought me an engagement ring. I moved in, in July. And the next year, in September, I remember asking myself what sort of madness it was to get married (when the previous one was so hurtful) to this guy so soon... on the long drive down to Duck, NC.

We were together till his preferred ending, 15 yrs. later. It was never a "perfect" relationship but it was without question, the best I'd experienced to this date.

Yes, "love at first sight" or fast decisions about marriage can work out. No one size fits all rules about that for people. People impact each other and grow and change (hopefully) as a RESULT of their relationships. I even went through the "secrets revealed" and dealt with phase with him. It wasn't ever a "bone of contention" in the relationship either. Other things were, though.

I guess this is year 3 now since he died (lung cancer & COPD) and while I recognize I have the capacity for another relationship and have learned what lonliness really is now... I'm still taking time to learn who I am now. By myself... not in the context of a relationship which it seems is part of my destiny, but does get in the way of "just being myself". I completely trust that I'll know - again - when it's the right "learning experience" in the form of a relationship the next time. No rush.

[mudpuppy]

  Great, romantic story, Hops.

  Saw my counselor again today. [counselor sounds much better than therapist or head shrinker, IMO ]
He's still convinced she has borderline tendencies, especially after I described those portions of her response at the end that were not really accurate and placed blame on me solely for behavior we both equally engaged in.
As it turns out though he doesn't really mean necessarily Borderline PD  but those actions by a person who has been hurt deeply in the past and now wishes to avoid being hurt again at any cost.

  I have never considered love a feeling but rather a decision or a commitment and I don't give up on that commitment unless the person loved behaves in a way so voluntarily egregious that it voids that commitment. So I still love this girl, because something was done to her to make her as defensive as she is.
  And so I have decided that though we'll probably never have a romantic relationship that's ok, and I will wait and stand by her and if she reaches out because she is hurting I will be there to help her heal, not to get involved with her again, regardless of how long it takes. If she never gets there that's out of my hands and if someone else comes along for me in the meantime that is ok. Doesn't mean I still don't love her as my sister and want the best for her.  Her bluntness and even her unresolved pain helped me do a great deal of healing, so what kind of jerk would I be if I didn't stand by her, even if I have to stand quite a distance away for awhile?
  If we do end up together that's ok too, but that's not the objective. Right now she is imprisoned by her fear and I would like to see her free, even if it's free to be with someone else. She is choosing to be alone, not because that is what she wants but because she is too afraid to risk her heart and so takes the safe escape. Regardless of what it's called all of her words and and more importantly the understanding I gained while we were together point to a wonderful woman hampered from living the way she truly wants to because she was wounded by life. If she chose solitude in a state of being free to choose either I wouldn't consider it anything but a healthy choice, but that's not where she is.
  I just hope to see her back to the way God created her to be not the way man wounded her. She helped me to get closer to the way I used to be so IMO I don't have a choice but to try and return the favor. If she never wants any help or never chooses to face her fear, I'll have to give up but at least I will have tried to help my friend. And for all I know she may end up helping me heal some of my remaining wounds. It's in God's hands and I will just wait and see what happens, because I have a feeling even if we both do nothing at all our paths are destined to intersect again anyway.

mud

[lighter]

Hi, Mud:

How are you doing?

I'm concerned about you.  I'm not sure why you'd want to spend your life with a woman your T believes has borderline tendencies.  We can't save people from themselves.  We can't heal them, no matter how much we love them, IME.  I learned that one the hard way.

You explained why you believe she's not PD, only has traits, but I'm still very concerned. 

I hope you're remembering to breath, and taking good care of yourself.

Lighter

[mudpuppy]

Doing well, actually, Lighter. Thanks for asking.
Breaking up let a lot of stuff out that I was holding onto and didn't realize I was. I really kind of needed it cuz I'm not sure I would have seen it any other way.
I like my T but in this case I'm not sure he's correct.
I think he just kind of lumps any woman who has been hurt and is afraid of being hurt again as having borderline tendencies. I'm not infallible obviously, so it's possible she does in which case we'll  never go anywhere.
But if she's just someone who has been hurt and is wounded then I know I can't heal her or save her, but I can possibly hold her hand while God, time or both do.
I can't declare her a borderline mess because she said some stupid things as we broke up without calling myself one too because I probably said more stupid things than her.

There's enough of a chance, a good one IMO, that she just needs to learn to trust again.  We both brought a lot of baggage to the first try. If we can try again with a little less luggage then it will either work or it won't, but at least I'll know it didn't fail because of our baggage but because it was going to no matter what.

mud

[lighter]

Well....

make sure you don't dismiss relevant information.

Whatever's happened, you have many indicators to consider.

I know the heart wants what the heart wants,  but don't forget AAA....

Assess
Accept
Act

The love of your life might be just around the corner. 

Be available for her.

I'm glad to see you posting, Mud.

Lighter