Book: Voicelessness and Emotional Survival: Notes from the therapy underground

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi OnlyMe,

Welcome back!  Sadly, the wounds from narcissistic parents can last a lifetime.  I hope you’ll post some more such that the dear people on this message board can listen and offer you support.

And thank you for reading my book!  I’ll look forward to any comments you want to share.

Richard

[OnlyMe]

Thank you for writing your book - and thank you for this message board.
And thank you for the confirmation that the wounds can last a lifetime - that in itself is a comfort (which, to anyone outside of this group, would seem like an odd thing for me to say!). 

[Twoapenny]

Hi Dr G,

I've started reading for the second time.  I left it a little while as I wanted everything to sink in a bit and to have some time to think about some of the things that came up for me as I was reading the book the first time.  The introduction has brought up some questions for me and I wondered what you think?

When you talk about it being rare that another person can enter someone else's world at a deep level (first page of the introduction) which is something I agree with wholeheartedly, it got me wondering, what do you feel therapy is all about?  Is it about us improving ourselves?  Or relieving emotional pain in some way?  Or about learning to endure more pain in life?  You talk later on the same page about pain being omnipresent and that got me thinking about whether life has always been painful?  I assume so; people have always lost loved ones, probably more so in days gone by when infant mortality was higher and life expectancy lower. But then I wondered if that made people more immune to pain, because it was more frequent and expected?  That got me wondering whether we've tried too hard to alleviate pain and whether we should instead accept it as part of what we all go through.  I was just interested in what your thoughts are as to the main point or aim of therapy (although I guess as there are different types it might depend on which type you're looking at.  Nothing is ever simple lol ).  It's very interesting to see the therapists' perspective; it made me realise that I didn't really have access to that sort of thought process before.  Usually you see the 'client in the meeting room' through your own experiences and only experience the therapy from the client's side of the process so it's interesting to see the therapist's perspective (and interesting that other therapists weren't helpful to you in the past - I'd sort of always assumed that all therapists 'got' each other and it's clear that isn't the case).

Something else that I wondered about is that, when you were training and going through your own unpleasant experiences of not being heard, what was it that made you think to do it differently rather than leaving to do something else?  I only ask because it really interested me that for a young trainee and newly qualified professional, to look at an entire body of work, practice, endless other professionals and so on and to say "nah.  That's not right" - and then to go off and kind of re-write the rule book - is very bold!  As I was reading I kept thinking about all the things I've done over the years that I've jacked in because I didn't like the way things were being done and I wondered why I hadn't done a Dr G and said "you know what - I'll do this my way".  It was very brave of you to go off on your own path like that and I just wondered if you had any thoughts as to what made you do things differently rather than going off and doing something else altogether?

That's all of my questions for now!  Lol, you will end up writing another book on here answering everyone's questions and thoughts   I'm looking forward to getting on with reading it a second time

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Tupp,

Thank you so much for reading my book x 2!  Here are some answers to your thoughtful questions:

“When you talk about it being rare that another person can enter someone else's world at a deep level (first page of the introduction) which is something I agree with wholeheartedly, it got me wondering, what do you feel therapy is all about?  Is it about us improving ourselves?  Or relieving emotional pain in some way?  Or about learning to endure more pain in life?"

Therapy should be about all of these important goals, which raised for me early on in my career the question: how can all of these goals be accomplished via one “form” of therapy.  What my patients taught me was that the most powerful, thorough, and predictable way was via the “method” that I describe in the book—and the “method” that Sara Field validates from the patient side of the room in her book.  (I don’t want this post to be a spoiler for those who haven’t read the books!)

“You talk later on the same page about pain being omnipresent and that got me thinking about whether life has always been painful?”

Pain is omnipresent, and yes, life has always been painful.  Steve Pinker argues in his book, “The Better Angels of Our Nature:  Why Violence has Declined,” (https://smile.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0143122010/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547508176&sr=8-1&keywords=steven+pinker+better+angels) that life is, in general, less painful now than it has been in the past, but, in my view, it is still quite painful and, as I write in my book, aloneness has reached epidemic proportions.

“That got me wondering whether we've tried too hard to alleviate pain and whether we should instead accept it as part of what we all go through.  I was just interested in what your thoughts are as to the main point or aim of therapy.”

Certainly, there are specific ways of better accepting the pain of life—mindfulness techniques immediately come to mind.  But I discovered a therapeutic relationship of the kind described in my book to be the most effective “aid” in living with the omnipresent and sometimes extraordinary pain that life has to offer.

“I was just interested in what your thoughts are as to the main point or aim of therapy (although I guess as there are different types it might depend on which type you're looking at.  Nothing is ever simple   lol ). “

My aims are to help people lead a more meaningful, connected, fulfilling life, and, of course, to suffer significantly less as a result.  In my view, as you now know, it is a “package deal.”

“Usually you see the 'client in the meeting room' through your own experiences and only experience the therapy from the client's side of the process so it's interesting to see the therapist's perspective (and interesting that other therapists weren't helpful to you in the past - I'd sort of always assumed that all therapists 'got' each other and it's clear that isn't the case).”

Yes, the book addresses these points from a very personal perspective.  I hope the painful personal aspects I write about make these points far more compelling.

“Something else that I wondered about is that, when you were training and going through your own unpleasant experiences of not being heard, what was it that made you think to do it differently rather than leaving to do something else?  I only ask because it really interested me that for a young trainee and newly qualified professional, to look at an entire body of work, practice, endless other professionals and so on and to say "nah.  That's not right" - and then to go off and kind of re-write the rule book - is very bold!”

I have two immediate answers to this question.  First, I have a “stick to it” character—I’ve never found change particularly exciting or compelling.  As I write in the book, this subtext can be found repeatedly in my character.  For example, I have lived my whole adult life, since the age of 21 within 8 blocks of my current (for the past 40 years) location.  But more importantly, the therapy profession fit my character “to a tee”— helping people in a significant way, personal autonomy, understanding the way people’s brains work in a scientific way and, as I write in the book, very much appreciating the arts and science blend of my “work.”

Thank you, Tupp, for all of your important questions.  Let me know if any of my answers aren't clear.  Also if you have more questions as you read the book for a second time,  I’d be very happy to answer them!

Richard

P.S.  You now know more why I always refer to myself as Richard on this message board!

[lighter]

Reading your book was...
Like being pulled through deep water, from one emotional flashback to another, as you shared your experiences with your first Ts.

I'm grateful that you wrote this book, Doc. 

It's validating. 

It's sadly informative. 

What I got, almost exclusively, about your experiences with Ts, is the practice of a very subtle form of interpersonal terrorism, as I see it.  When people invalidate the sacred things we hold dear about who we are in the world. they're purposefully targeting us with the intent to inflict emotional trauma.  Intention.  Trauma.  It's wicked, particularly when someone in a position of trust and authority does it.   

  Some of us won't experience validation of who we are until we enter T, unfortunately.
 

Most of us won't understand that we HOLD THESE SACRED beliefs about who we are, and being in relationship with someone who SEES these things, and KNOWS their truth with us, is important.   

 When people Do this, undermine us in this way, it's so subtle, it almost flys under the wire, bc it's hurtful, and confusing, in equal measures as I've experienced it.   And it can't be inflicted by someone who lacks intimate knowledge about us, some kind of knowledge about what how we see ourselves, and what we value in ourselves.

Wow.  I wish we understood this from a young age.....

Oh, to have Hops' and Doc's gift with words, I feel like I'm wasting words, and not writing what I mean to say.    ::sigh::.

We'd have a better chance of understanding when people target us this way, and undermine us at the core,  purposefully, iMO.  Maybe.  Co workers, SOs, FOO members, extended family, mates, and people we call friends DO this, and it's hard to make sense of it, IME.   

Some of us won't experience validation of our inner worlds till we enter into a healthy therapeutic relationship, which is really sad.  It's more than sad when the T does more harm than good, bc of their own problems.   

But then, I think most mental health professionals choose this line of work bc of their own problems, and experiences with emotional struggles.  This explains why so many aren't good at what they do.   It also explains why some are most excellent, IMO. 

You cultivate trust with your patients, Doc.  That's deeply satisfying to read, and I look forward to reading page 41 on.
 I had to stop at page 40, and get this off my chest before finishing.  I think I can focus again.  Now.

Like Tupp, I'll have to read your book again.  What popped up for me was so powerfully IN MY FACE, I couldn't see beyond it. 

Lighter


 

 

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Lighter,

I am grateful to you for reading my tale of woe!  And you’re not wasting your words at all!  Here are some of my thoughts.

“What I got, almost exclusively, about your experiences with Ts, is the practice of a very subtle form of interpersonal terrorism.”

That’s a great way of describing it, at least re: my first therapist.  I also wish my therapists could have taken the following article seriously:

Intellectual humility: the importance of knowing you might be wrong by Brian Resnik
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/1/4/17989224/intellectual-humility-explained-psychology-replication

But humility was not a part of either therapist’s character.  And a patient was not allowed to question a therapist’s theoretical beliefs.  As I write in the book, if a patient did  question these beliefs, it was considered to be part of their problem.

“Most of us won't understand that we HOLD THESE SACRED beliefs about who we are, and being in relationship with someone who SEES these things, and KNOWS their truth with us, is important.

 When people Do this, undermine us in this way, it's so subtle, it almost flys under the wire, bc it's hurtful, and confusing, in equal measures as I've experienced it.   And it can't be inflicted by someone who lacks intimate knowledge about us, some kind of knowledge about what how we see ourselves, and what we value in ourselves.”

In therapy, it is so important for us to be heard for who we are and not have our “selves” distorted by being placed in rote conceptual and theoretical boxes.  But this is what therapists are/were trained to do. And, yes, people in general are, for the most part, unable to listen and “get it” including those who supposedly know us best.

“But then, I think most mental health professionals choose this line of work bc of their own problems, and experiences with emotional struggles.  This explains why so many aren't good at what they do.   It also explains why some are most excellent, IMO.”

I agree.  I think the need for status and control can also play a role—and is reinforced by certain theoretical views/practices.  Actually, If I had to choose a kind of person to be a therapist, I would choose a veterinarian!  No vet has ever tried to display status and control over my dogs.  And certainly, Beau, my current Golden Retriever, would never let them do it!  He’s the boss! 

“You cultivate trust with your patients, Doc.”

My patients are dear to me, and we are always in this together.

Thank you, Lighter, for “letting the book in.”  I so appreciate it—and if you do read it a second time, please let me know your thoughts and feelings.

Richard

[lighter]

OK... I finished the book, and have a comment on prior tracts (brain pathways) "rusting away."  We're talking about myelinated (fat covered)  pathways.  Fat makes pathways FAST.  Fast makes it hard to head off old patterns, and choose/cultivate new pathways, which is the goal.  So difficult.  Takes time, as you say.   

The body is very frugal with that fat, and will move it from the default pathway TO the rarely used pathways we're mindfully cultivating, but it takes time.  It's SO SO hard, and I think it helps me to picture moving the fat, rather than picture the old pathways rusting away.  In either case, they're both helpful images, IMO, and reminding myself that the process is the process, even when I fail, helps cut down on despair.  Being aware, that I'm struggling, is a sign that I'm working on, and towards, that new goal.  Awareness is imperative, IMO.   

My uncle said a brain doc giving a talk at his office said it would be helpful if we stop all patterns in our lives... like putting a watch on the same wrist, the same way, at the same time, every day.....anything and everything, all patterns, every pattern...just STOP, and mix things up as a habit.  I think it frees up fat, and makes our brains more efficient, and capable of practicing choice, rather than developing defaults as habit.... our brains get into the flow of choice, rather than the flow of setting defaults as habit.  Maybe?

Moving on.  Page 46, last paragraph.... Brought to mind....
"Call me Lionel."
Your view on attending your patient/client/another human being....
 reminds me of the movie THE KING'S SPEECH.  Lionel Logue's character explains his experience  treating voiceless, shell shocked young men returning from war, and what they really needed "was a friend."  So simple.  That resonated powerfully for me, and I feel like you're describing this "bond" but in more technical terms... without using the word "friend."

You write, on page 52....
"Interestingly, I have found that while advice on how to deal with such parents can sometimes be helpful, it is not central to the therapeutic process.  Note, again, the important difference in subtext from previous therapy models: I am another human being with a particular "character" that allows my patients to make a very significant attachment of a kind they have never experienced before.  I this regard, my "character" matters far more than any advice I could possibly give."

::nodding::.

"Friend."

Page 50.... Yes.  It would be helpful if there was a way to weed out the harmful Ts before they became practitioners.  Honestly, we could say the same thing about Officers of the Court, medical doctors, LCSWs, and teachers.....
caregivers/parents. 

::nodding::.

Loving the book, Doc.  Thanks for writing it: )

Lighter

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Lighter,

Here are some of the thoughts your comments raised in my brain!

“The body is very frugal with that fat, and will move it from the default pathway TO the rarely used pathways we're mindfully cultivating, but it takes time.  It's SO SO hard, and I think it helps me to picture moving the fat, rather than picture the old pathways rusting away.  In either case, they're both helpful images, IMO, and reminding myself that the process is the process, even when I fail, helps cut down on despair.  Being aware, that I'm struggling, is a sign that I'm working on, and towards, that new goal.  Awareness is imperative, IMO.   

My uncle said a brain doc giving a talk at his office said it would be helpful if we stop all patterns in our lives... like putting a watch on the same wrist, the same way, at the same time, every day.....anything and everything, all patterns, every pattern...just STOP, and mix things up as a habit.  I think it frees up fat, and makes our brains more efficient, and capable of practicing choice, rather than developing defaults as habit.... our brains get into the flow of choice, rather than the flow of setting defaults as habit.  Maybe?”

Interesting, this is an individual response that may help!  Even more powerful, in my view, is the power of two people spending a considerable time together in a particular way—with, as I write in the book, the outcome being highly dependent on the character of the therapist. 

It is also interesting that my patients are not mindfully aware of the positive changes (e.g., the new attachment wiring) taking place.  The new pathways gradually appear after significant time together and make a difference in my patients' emotions and their responses to life decisions, e.g. concerning relationships. Unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough about the biological changes occurring in the attachment areas of the brain to offer a technical explanation.

“Moving on.  Page 46, last paragraph.... Brought to mind....
"Call me Lionel."
Your view on attending your patient/client/another human being....
 reminds me of the movie THE KING'S SPEECH.  Lionel Logue's character explains his experience  treating voiceless, shell shocked young men returning from war, and what they really needed "was a friend."  So simple.  That resonated powerfully for me, and I feel like you're describing this "bond" but in more technical terms... without using the word ‘friend.’”

Exactly! That’s why  the therapist gets renamed “Dr. Friend” in the prologue to the book.  The blend is very important in my view…

“Page 50.... Yes.  It would be helpful if there was a way to weed out the harmful Ts before they became practitioners.  Honestly, we could say the same thing about Officers of the Court, medical doctors, LCSWs, and teachers.....
caregivers/parents.”

I completely agree!  So much damage is done by destructive people in multiple caring professions.

Thank you, again, Lighter, for reading the book and making such thoughtful comments.  I so appreciate it!

Richard 

[Twoapenny]

Hi Dr G

Thank you so much for your answers to my questions!  It's so interesting reading about your point of view and your experiences.  Very honest, as well.  I think it takes an enormously expansive mind to be aware there's a possibility of being wrong and I think it's a possibility that many of us struggle with.  I have bookmarked the article you mentioned about that to read later.

It was very interesting for me to read that you don't like change and that's why you changed the way things were done, rather than changing what you were doing.  So interesting to read of that as a character type and a fundamental aspect of who you are.  I've come to the conclusion more recently that I am the opposite.  I think the prospect of digging deep within myself and standing still is very frightening for me, so I tend to change where I am or what I'm doing instead.  It's interesting that this is all coming up at the same time, as I've been thinking about a period in my younger days when I was happy and enjoying my life and I keep wondering now, what would have happened if I'd gone deeper into that experience instead of dropping out of it and moving on to something else.  It's given me great food for thought and I'll continue to ponder on that.

It was also really helpful to read your thoughts on what therapy ought to be trying to help us achieve.  It's odd that our problems now are so different to those of the past.  In earlier times much of our thought and energy would have gone in to hunting and growing food, keeping warm, finding water, avoiding bears and so on.  You'd think that with so many of us not having to give a great deal of thought to those things any more that we'd all just be sitting around feeling happy and content.  But we have new and different problems to deal with, many of them created by the very comforts we all enjoy.  It's a funny world to live in and your thoughts (and style) of therapy are so helpful at making sense of it all.

I've been re-reading Chapter 1 and I was so struck by your early professor (the one who was also a therapist) marking you down for not using him enough.  I found it such an odd thing for him to do, particularly, as you pointed out, as he saw you regularly and could have mentioned that he wanted to see more of what you were doing.  It does make it sound like a punishment for you not making him important enough.  I was also astonished that you had tutors who insisted you'd plagurized because your work was of too high a standard!  Was that connected to the previous professor giving you a lower mark so they thought you couldn't work at that level?  It seems such an odd and unpleasant thing to do (although I'm glad one of them seemed to believe you!).  It's always very striking when people who are teaching others how to do things can be very unaware of themselves and their own behaviour and attitudes.  I'm so glad these bad experiences didn't put you off.  Particularly the art teacher who didn't even bother to read your paper (which did sound very interesting!).  A friend of mine has recently had a similar experience as part of a Masters course she is doing.  She submitted her idea for her dissertation and her tutor sent her back a sarcastic response that essentially rubbished the idea but didn't give any suggestions for improvement or suggest a meeting to discuss further.  She switched tutors, submitted the same idea and got a very positive response about an unusual slant on the topic in question along with some information for her to think about and an invitation to arrange an appointment to discuss further if required.  Such a different approach.  I do feel that education ought to be about helping people achieve their best rather than setting an ideal and then berating people for doing something different.  Your honours thesis advisor sounded dreadful as well!  It's so fortunate that you used those experiences to think about changing the way things are done rather than giving up on the whole thing.  Very disheartening to be treated in such an off hand manner by people.  I have met people over the years who seem ill suited for their jobs - teachers who don't like children, paediatricians who seem to dislike parents, social workers who come across as people that would leave their own granny bleeding in the street.  It's odd that some people seem to be attracted to things that really reveal their darker side.  I wonder if that's why it happens; some sort of deep seated urge to heal but it somehow gets thwarted because they don't notice what's going on within themselves?  Interesting to think about.

I'm so glad you finished the chapter with the lovey story of the Head of the Program Professor.  He sounds so lovely and it's amazing that he had such a life long impact on you after only two meetings.  Thank goodness there was a good egg in there as well.

I'm really enjoying the second read.  Thank you so much for writing it and for your responses on the thread as well; it's so helpful and interesting to digest.

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Tupp,

Thank you so much for your second read and your thoughtful questions and comments!   I could probably write a second book addressing them fully, but let me try to address them in part

“It was very interesting for me to read that you don't like change and that's why you changed the way things were done, rather than changing what you were doing.  So interesting to read of that as a character type and a fundamental aspect of who you are.  I've come to the conclusion more recently that I am the opposite.” 

Yes, I think reaction to change is a significant part of a person’s character.  For example, having to put down Beau, my beloved almost 14-year-old Golden Retriever a few weeks ago has been very difficult for me.  I keep looking for him in every room that I walk into and my heart sinks when I don’t find him.

“It was also really helpful to read your thoughts on what therapy ought to be trying to help us achieve.  It's odd that our problems now are so different to those of the past.  In earlier times much of our thought and energy would have gone in to hunting and growing food, keeping warm, finding water, avoiding bears and so on.  You'd think that with so many of us not having to give a great deal of thought to those things any more that we'd all just be sitting around feeling happy and content.  But we have new and different problems to deal with, many of them created by the very comforts we all enjoy.”

For many people, even when they achieve the many comforts of middle class life, aloneness continues to be a significant problem.  This is, in part, why people who are in the “upper class” are, in general, no happier or satisfied with life than those who are in the “middle class.”  But, yes, in many ways, life used to be much more difficult and characterized by the often overwhelming struggle to survive and help one’s family to survive.  And in many places on this earth, survival at this level continues to be the dominant struggle.

"I've been re-reading Chapter 1 and I was so struck by your early professor (the one who was also a therapist) marking you down for not using him enough.  I found it such an odd thing for him to do, particularly, as you pointed out, as he saw you regularly and could have mentioned that he wanted to see more of what you were doing.  It does make it sound like a punishment for you not making him important enough."

As a 20 year old, I was surprised to find that narcissism played such a significant role in the university setting and in life, in general.    But, as I write in the book, this was such an important lesson! 

"I was also astonished that you had tutors who insisted you'd plagurized because your work was of too high a standard!  Was that connected to the previous professor giving you a lower mark so they thought you couldn't work at that level?  It seems such an odd and unpleasant thing to do (although I'm glad one of them seemed to believe you!).  It's always very striking when people who are teaching others how to do things can be very unaware of themselves and their own behaviour and attitudes.  I'm so glad these bad experiences didn't put you off.  Particularly the art teacher who didn't even bother to read your paper (which did sound very interesting!)."

It was not connected to the other event.  Looking back, it was also telling that I had no reaction to the suspicions/accusations/disinterest.  I had very few expectations from the world around me and assumed that this was the way the world was—again, part of my character. It’s funny, but now in my mid-60’s, every time I receive a letter asking for money from the undergraduate (and graduate!) universities that I attended, I am always tempted to respond with the stories from my book and ask them what they propose to do about them! 

"I do feel that education ought to be about helping people achieve their best rather than setting an ideal and then berating people for doing something different." 

Interesting—there is much being written on this very topic because the value of a college education in the modern world is suddenly in question.  I just read Kathy Davidson’s book, The New Education, on how college education practices should be changed to reflect exactly what you suggest.

"It's odd that some people seem to be attracted to things that really reveal their darker side.  I wonder if that's why it happens; some sort of deep seated urge to heal but it somehow gets thwarted because they don't notice what's going on within themselves?  Interesting to think about."

Character—and its associated multiple needs—are often very complicated!  In my experience, and as I write about, very often people don’t choose professions for the obvious reasons.

"I'm so glad you finished the chapter with the lovey story of the Head of the Program Professor.  He sounds so lovely and it's amazing that he had such a life long impact on you after only two meetings.  Thank goodness there was a good egg in there as well."

This wonderful professor deserves to be named:  Ulric Neisser.  You can Google him to learn more.  If he were still alive, I would thank him in person.  Meeting with him for a total of one hour, he played such a significant role in my education and my life.

Thank you, again, Tupp for all your thoughts and comments!  Let me know if you have any more!

Richard

[lighter]

So sorry you lost your beloved Golden, ((Doctor.)) 

Our pets are family members. 

Lighter

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Thanks, Lighter!  They are family members, indeed--and I learned so much from Watson (our previous Golden Retriever) and Beau, in large part because they were so different!  Luckily, they will be part of me for the rest of my life.

Richard

P.S.  And yes, we recently brought home a female mini-Golden Doodle puppy.  I needed to "downsize" because I could barely carry 75 pound Beau up and down the stairs at my age during the last month of his life.

[Hopalong]

((((Doc G)))),

I am so very sorry about Beau.
If all people could exhibit the level of empathy dogs do, psychiatrists could probably retire. I can imagine how much this loss hurts.

And, errr, I've known a golden doodle who was the size of a golden...eeek?

Much sympathy over Beau and hope for much joy with the new pooch. That tail and that fur and those eyes...can heal the hurt.

Hops

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Hops,

Thank you so much for your dear post.  Yes, many (but not all) dogs are wonderfully empathic beings. I also think that people who end up choosing to be veterinarians, as a group, would make the best therapists.

However painful my loss is, I feel so lucky to have had Beau and Watson in my life—and, as I write in my book, I feel blessed to have been able to combine work and love in my "profession" as well.  Having a deep attachment to multiple people helps a lot with loss, too!

Richard

[JustKathy]

Hello everyone,

I've been away from this forum for about a year now, maybe longer, I've lost track of time. I read on another forum that this book had been released and have just ordered it.

Dr. G, congratulations on the publication! I'll definitely give you my thoughts (and an Amazon review) when I'm done reading.

Kathy