Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 91157 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #225 on: September 24, 2019, 02:04:15 PM »
Thank you, ((((Tupp)))). Your take on how I feel is comforting and validating. Professors can be VERY persuasive, until they encounter the Stubborn Student! You're right, my concerns are legitimate. But so are his. I'm very hopeful the couple-counseling will help. He is motivated to the moon not to lose me, and I'm not far behind him. So given that he's brilliant and motivated, maybe it'll be a remarkable learning curve. My smarts are different but my love for him is real (plus that sketchy other motivation you are so forgiving about). I dunno the outcome, but I'll ask the universe for what I'd like, and give it my all.

I also agree with you that there'd be no point in bailing right now, just because it's getting hard. Relationships take Work. And either way--either for the reward of having worked so hard to create a happy future marriage that it's even more satisfying, or of having worked so hard that even in grieving an ended relationship, we have the knowledge that we both tried our very best. Until I can say that authentically, having also confronted my own dysfunctions, I am not ready to pull the plug.

Like you, I don't know what I would have done without this forum. And I have learned more than I can express from every voice hear.

I am sooooo grateful for the support.

love
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #226 on: September 24, 2019, 02:51:58 PM »
Thank you, ((((Tupp)))). Your take on how I feel is comforting and validating. Professors can be VERY persuasive, until they encounter the Stubborn Student! You're right, my concerns are legitimate. But so are his. I'm very hopeful the couple-counseling will help. He is motivated to the moon not to lose me, and I'm not far behind him. So given that he's brilliant and motivated, maybe it'll be a remarkable learning curve. My smarts are different but my love for him is real (plus that sketchy other motivation you are so forgiving about). I dunno the outcome, but I'll ask the universe for what I'd like, and give it my all.

I also agree with you that there'd be no point in bailing right now, just because it's getting hard. Relationships take Work. And either way--either for the reward of having worked so hard to create a happy future marriage that it's even more satisfying, or of having worked so hard that even in grieving an ended relationship, we have the knowledge that we both tried our very best. Until I can say that authentically, having also confronted my own dysfunctions, I am not ready to pull the plug.

Like you, I don't know what I would have done without this forum. And I have learned more than I can express from every voice hear.

I am sooooo grateful for the support.

love
Hops

I think the motivation to try is the important thing, Hops, that part is so important, particularly as you're both so willing.  And it's so realistic as well.  Far more people would avoid unhappy marriages if they had these open, frank discussions beforehand instead of going down the Hollywood 'love will conquer all' pathway.

I've probably told this story before, but I remember an Asian friend years ago explaining the arranged marriage scenario to me.  It sounded so sensible.  An introduction was suggested, usually by friends or family, and a phone conversation took place.  And during that phone conversation they'd have a really frank, open discussion - do you want children?  private or state school?  will you give up work after having children?  do you cook?  Will your mother live with us?  And so on.  Very factual, very frank, and all the sorts of topics that couples end up rowing about and falling out over.  It sounded so sensible to me, it just weeded out unsuitables straight away.  When she did meet someone (randomly, it wasn't arranged) her Dad insisted on seeing his bank statements.  And most people would think that so rude but I thought, do you know what, he wants to make sure his girl is with a good un and he's not just taking his word for it.  Imagine the difference if everyone approached marriage in such a calm and collected way?

All a bit off kilter, but I'm just trying to say I think being really frank and open is a good thing, and I think it makes sense to work on things now instead of rushing off to get married and then realising it was a mistake.  I am still hopefull things will work out :) xx

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #227 on: September 25, 2019, 08:41:22 AM »
Ya know Hops, you and I kind of have different "styles" about this kind of relationship. That's the way it should be, IMO. We also have our different views about what we want; will accept; try to give and when, etc. And after 10+ years of back & forth support we're still friends. Even a couple of toe tramplings in there - we got over it. LOL.

I let your last post marinate overnight. I've been guilty of just reacting off the cuff lately and I wanted to make sure my response didn't just make things more confusing. I saw some disturbing patterns emerging in your recent description. Disturbing for me; if I was in your shoes. I'm not going to go into them because you seem to be trying sort out the "why" or reason behind them yourself; quite well actually. That reason will be damned important going forward.

I wish for you to find happiness and companionship with a partner who truly knows and appreciates you for WHO YOU ARE, without trying to remodel you into what he wants. For the sake of his own comfort. You get downright fierce about protecting your boundaries so I'm not worried about ya. Despite your caring & compassionate nature.

But it was the image of M in a "saintly" role in the relationship - justified by his massive love for you - that got my attention. As you've realized, there are lots of explanations for why you're perceiving this so clearly and the truest explanation will be what matters. Even with couples therapy and tools for working through the issue, this is something you'll have to live with and accommodate for a long time. So it's vital you have that information before proceeding. You know how long it takes to truly change things like this in ourselves.

It perfectly OK to slow things down enough to address the issue Hops. I think you'll be fine.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #228 on: September 25, 2019, 03:58:48 PM »
(((((((Amber)))) Responded about Hol over on Farm Life. Meanwhile, I'm grateful you brought up my struggle with M not accepting a NO. (Not before an endless campaign of ignoring it and/or verbally pounding at me over and over about it, until the NO becomes overwhelming.)

I think in many smaller matters I have intentionally turned my No into a Why Not or Yes. Yes, I'd like to please him. He turns almost every effort I make to give to him into his issue of no no no, I am the one who provides, serves, is generous and sacrificial. I had to talk to him about receiving...how if he deflects every gesture I try to make to express love and gratitude to him, that hurt. He worked on it. Doing the surprise birthday dinner for him was a big one. But even there, he turned to me and said, I'd be happy to pay for this...one look and he gave it up, but his compulsion was still there to take away that opportunity from me. HE is the Giver, the Big Person, the Magnanimous Papa figure. It's not all ego, a lot of it is how he was raised.
I know I've posted this before, but Bill and I struggled with being "the giver" in our relationship too.  I had to talk myself out of many trees, and make a conscious decision to let Bill have that.  I learned to find comfort in receiving, the it became joy.
When he died I felt a profound loss I'd never before known, and come to appreciate.


Recently, I took my biggest No, contemplated loving him and wanting to bring him happiness, and flipped it into a profound Yes. He wound up kind of letting loose of my gift in a way that puzzled me, but it was still a happy thing to do and share.

On the other hand, I think my boundaries are too rigid in some ways. My T has said to me several times that she feels I am not over-reacting to his pressure. But she only hears my narrative, not his.

I identified for M recently that the pattern I worry most about is that although I delight in him as a companion (we are crazily compatible talking, dining, traveling, bantering, exploring, laughing, socializing with others) ... where I have the most trouble is when I believe he is crossing personal boundaries into my personal autonomy. I may be over-threatened by these in others' eyes, but here they are:

--My Family. He trespassed into my relationship with my D by sending her a message behind my back about my feelings, and then by talking about "his plan" to contact and help her, that he would "let me know" when he has decided "what he intends to do." I was in fury until he grasped that he is not to do ANYTHING in her direction unless he explicitly ASKS ME about it first. She is my child, not his. For now, we've dropped that discussion. He was fantasizing a paternal relationship with her, "the daughter I never had" that was both kind and clueless (her purpose in the world is not to make him feel more saintly). He understands nothing at all about her mental illness, my loss and how it feels and kept poking at it, bringing it up over and over and over because it made HIM so sad--and thus making me re-experience an anguishing loss I'd grieved as much as I could without dying. (Repetition, repetition....). I see your point, but also see his side.  Yearning to help and connect, and perhaps heal.  Since my oldedt18 dd connects so deeply with my brother the idea of M connecting with your dd brings up positive emotions and hope....and then I look through your eyes again, and know your right to have boundaries, and insist M respects them.He FINALLY realized how grave this was for me, and dropped it. Though there've been a few very subtle gestures about her lately. (I think he resents me having drawn such a firm boundary there.)

--My Health. He directly ignored an explicit request my friend conveyed (nicely) for me when I was in the ER, that I did not want him to come back yet into the area where I was being treated. He told my friend, "Oh she's confused. I have to be there, I'll 'take the heat':... ) and persuaded her to let him take over. When I asked later, did she convey my request that you NOT come back? He said yes. I asked, so why did you? He said, "My feelings compelled me to." So the wishes of the stressed and overwhelmed patient, me, were irrelevant because his feelings were strong. It was NOT comforting having him in the cubicle; it added to my stress while I was in the middle of a stroke and focusing on responding to the providers. The next day I was (and remain) so grateful to have him there and very moved by his overall support (though he kept interrupting my conversation with my doctors). But the night before, he did not care about my privacy, my vulnerability, my humiliation (I was having medication not only injected but stuffed up my ass and was NOT ready to share that moment with a boyfriend I hadn't been intimate with) or my CHOICE. He found his choice romantic. I found it disrespectful and, honestly, selfish. (So I hesitate to trust him with health issues. A recent example, his insistent drama about the monitor, magnifying HIS sense of crisis into a routine appointment I was managing calmlly. Another: The other night I shared something about how ADD affects my time management and he responded dismissively, "Oh, I don't think you have ADD. You may have gotten some diagnosis, but I don't perceive it." And "Somebody wanted to put one of my sons on ADD meds!" I don't even take Rx. I was 60 when diagnosed, and immensely relieved by it. But what got to me was his entitlement to dismiss it and attitude of superiority about his knowledge. So that's another health thing I don't feel safe sharing about.)

--My Friendships. I had a tiff with a friend, coincidentally also a professor, and shared it with him because it was sad. It was just a friend story. He said, Oh I'll take care of this because as a professor I can reach out to her with some invitation because we're technically colleagues. I didn't want him to do this. I wasn't looking for him to take over and issue some invitation. I am capable of resolving or making decisions around my personal friendships myself, and didn't need or want his involvement, which would've made the whole delicate dialogue with her much more difficult. (So I regretted confiding in him about something I'd ordinarily love to share with a partner. By the way, she and I are okay again.) After the bday party he made a big deal of writing my friends to thank them for coming (which was very nice, and appropriate) and at the same time declare to them that he was extremely grateful and wanted to thank them for being good friends for me (which struck them as odd). They've been my personal friends for decades, barely know him, and frankly don't need my boyfriend to praise them for caring about me. It's...paternalistic. Well meant, but still.

--My Time. When I periodically need to retreat to recharge (as an "introverted extrovert") he emails, calls, sends intense messages about how he needs to drop off food gifts even after I politely decline ("But it's fresh! You don't even have to answer the door!") etc, etc. It ensures that I keep thinking about him, I'm guessing. I'm probably thinking about him anyway, but don't need my sanctuary time structured around his desperation to not sense the umbilical cord stretch. (So now, thanks to Tupp, I have to spell out--radio silence.)

--My History. I shared with him in France the story of a very painful hurt I'd experienced with my second husband. (Which I'd grieved, recovered from, and basically put away...I rarely think of him.) M brought it up about TEN TIMES since because it made HIM so sad. I finally explained that I appreciated how compassionate he was about that experience, but that it was many many years ago, that I had healed from it and moved on, and that I'd really appreciate it, now that he understood it, if he would not bring it up again. "I promise. I'll never mention it again," says M, as he often does. He brought it up again yesterday. (This is what I mean about repeat, repeat, repeat.) He had a pretext. Doesn't matter. It makes me not trust his "I promise." He is appalled, "You've said you don't TRUST me! My intentions are always pure and good! Because I love you so DEEPLY.") Oy.

--My Body. In the most vulnerable of situations, he persisted in a way of touching that was uncomfortable and distressing to me. I said No over and over and he ignored it. Shhhhh! Shhhhh! I left and burst into tears when I got home. I had and have much compassion for why it's an emergency to him and in some degree, how his own anxiety and goal focus overwhelm him. But despite compassion, I can't abandon my own self, my own body, to his agenda without knowing that if I say Yes, or No, in the moment I will be heard. (Not after he's repeated and repeated whatever he wants....over my objections.) He apologized profusely and sincerely by email, but also came back when I tried to talk about it in person. "I wept too" and more, which pretty much shut me down. The other day I told him I didn't feel heard and that experience was still unresolved for me. He said he wanted to listen and we should take time to sit down and he would. I'm doubtful but hopeful. For me, it's a traumatic memory, if that word isn't too extreme. So all that's on hold and I'm reluctant to re-engage at that level. Not without help.

Looking for some good news? Talking with my T, I asked her to recommend couples counselors to interview. She said it wasn't if we needed it, but when, and it's time, and suggested names. Happily, he's agreed and is also asking his T for suggestions. We'll see one from each list to find one we both like, etc. I had told him recently, when he asked again about marriage (repeat repeat) that I honestly now have doubt I didn't have before. So he's taking it very seriously. That's good. A relief.
It seems like he's willing to try, and is capable of learning.  I think digging into the why of his codependence will be super helpful, but super painful too.
If anyone can help him figure this out you can Hopsy.  Hopefully a good T will shorten the journey, and be helpful  for you both.


He's never wavered about how much he loves me and wants me as his lifetime companion and no one else will do and I'm the love of his life. I believe his feelings are real; it's only some behaviors that get to me. He says if I know his intention is good (I do) that nothing else should matter (I don't agree, and told him even when there is real love, sometimes relationships still don't work.) I'm wavering now, but I do still love him, and I'll be very sad if it doesn't work out. However, I am also clear that my life would continue. It would be a lot harder, and having a stroke I'd be helpless and without a direct advocate (my friends are great but not THAT available), and I won't pretend that security isn't one of my motivations. I'll be 70 this spring. Having him to love and live with and care for going forward I believe would be a happier life for me than continuing alone. Winter is coming, literally and metaphorically.  I think your strength and belief in yourself makes you a better partner.  I think it gives you more space to work out the things that come between you. 

And....for most of the hours we've been together, he's been a delightful companion. I believe we will both do our sincere best in the counseling, and that the hope lies there. Maybe all the baggage two people this age are dragging is just a little complicated. And at heart, he is an ethical person, and has kind intentions. We're also just beginning to take a look at how some things I find smothering are actually cultural differences, as CB referenced...in how he shows love. That's helpful. Dunno if it'll save us but it reduces my worry, to see some of his behavior in a less personal context.  Yes....stay curious, Hops.

Meanwhile, we're off to California later next month to "meet the kids" and I'm truly looking forward to it.  Have a good time.  Lighter

Thanks for listening to all that, all-a y'all.

love
Hops

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #229 on: September 25, 2019, 05:15:46 PM »
Thanks, Lighter.
The thing about M and my D is this: He doesn't know her. She doesn't (or didn't) know of his existence. I would have had no intention of sharing such personal news because: 1) she does not speak to me (8 years now) and is not presently in my life. 2) the pain of thinking of her is vicious, so I avoid doing so as much as possible. 3) M talks nonstop, and repetitively, about whatever pops into his head or engages his sentiments. He was oblivious about how much anguish he was raking up for me every time he probed about her. So that boundary had to be battled for with enormous stress.

I get what you mean about giving, and Bill. I have learned to accept much more comfortably and gratefully. There are just excesses in M's personality that mean although he's quite sincere, he does go on and on about how wonderful it is to give and how that is so natural to him and is his delight and purpose and so forth. I guess, in a subtle way, listening to all that self-praise is the attached string. Doesn't really have much to do with expenses or costs, as it does with M's personality/ego.

Thanks, Amber. By all means:
Quote
I saw some disturbing patterns emerging in your recent description. Disturbing for me; if I was in your shoes. I'm not going to go into them because you seem to be trying sort out the "why" or reason behind them yourself

Please DO "go into them" if you'd like. The whole reason I'm here is for help and feedback! For which I'm extremely grateful.

And thanks, Tupp!
Where can I rent some stern, loving Asian parents??????????????????

M followed up promptly and we have two prelimiary consultations with couples counselors set up. I'm very glad.

love y'all oodles,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #230 on: September 26, 2019, 08:40:42 AM »
Hops, if I had more confidence in my perspective right now, you know the irrepressible comments would come out. But I don't. Not at the moment. It's more important that you form your own judgement or discernment about this, anyway. Mine would be irrelevant unless I really thought you were missing something important.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #231 on: September 26, 2019, 10:56:59 AM »
I hope M realizes you accept him as a human being.

You're taking issue with some of his behaviors, just as he's uncomfortable with some of yours, and that's OK.

I wish every couple took worked to resolve their issues before things get more complicated, and it's hard to find the original thread.   

Everyone has issues.

::nodding::.

Lighter


Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #232 on: September 26, 2019, 04:07:13 PM »
Thanks, Lighter. I think you hit on a nuance. I do accept M as a human being, and only struggle with some of his behaviors. He's both so sensitive and so insecure that he doesn't have the psychological strength to have his behavior challenged. He's quite defensive, always with genuine feelings of being deeply wounded or "stung" when I imply that some of what he does creates a trust challenge for me.

Amber, hon, your thinking is relevant to me. I don't have to agree with or echo your perspective, of course. But I always value and appreciate it. You can offer whatever you want to, and not worry about "protecting" me in regard to me drawing my own conclusions or trusting my own decisions. As we all do, I take in everything because all our intentions here to help are so deeply evident. But naturally, I sift everything for what works and echoes, and whatever doesn't, drifts in and on. (Thank god nobody takes my voluminous opinions and advice as de riguer!) Just want you to know your thinking is valuable to me, whenever you're inspired to share it. (But no pressure to do so if you ain't inspired to.)

Gratefully,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #233 on: September 27, 2019, 10:43:57 AM »
Hops:

I'm just going to write down what comes up around you and M right now.  Take what makes sense, and forget the rest.

I think M believes whatever is good for him, is good for you... and the relationship.  It's a POV, and you're challenging it. He's shocked, bc that's not been his experience up to this point.   That's not right or wrong, it's just how he's feeling, kwim?

He likely does have the best of intentions for you, your happiness, and future with him, and I think you feel that too? 

I also think you're strength, autonomy, and personal POV is as exciting as it is scary for him.  That word "challenge" keeps coming up for me here.  You're challenging some of his world view, and how he operates in it with a partner.

I think he has some fear, and that's normal.  It's very harmful, in this case, to his ability to hear you and use reason.

He's going to have to find a way to calm himself down, and focus.  He's up against old default pathways here, so I hope some breathing exercises are included in T.... he needs to take his biology back, and shift back into adult/creative/problem solving mode, IMO.


I'm afraid you're the professor in these matters, and he's the student.  That's not going to add to M's comfort either, IME. 

Understanding that this is about you and M working together to sort things out.... might help M calm down.

You want to know what M really needs, and M needs to be able to ask what you really need, and be responsive to them.  It goes both ways. 

I really look forward to M understanding that he's loved, and whole, and accepted, even when you "challenge" him. I really want to read posts where he's secure enough to be upset, then bounce back with admiration for your pluck.  He chose a strong woman.  Once he feels more secure, I think he'll have an easier time finding his admiration.

The truth is, most couples who experience crisis, and do this difficult work to overcome it, come out incredibly strong.  I think you can say that, up front, to M.   Working through these housekeeping matters is intended to bring more joy and stability for you both. That's an amazing,  intelligent aspiration, IMO.

I hope M can learn to make that shift into observer mode, and get curious about what you want and need.  That defensive stance is not working for either of you, and you don't intend offense.  You're Hops!  He should learn that, and internalize it.  The sooner the better.

In all your posts I feel positive connection, and his ability to do this work. 

That M shifts into fight or flight mode, and can't get out,  explains why he's not able to understand, listen, or problem solve.  He's smart enough, he just needs help learning how to unhook those darned alarm bells so he can hear, help make a plan, and follow through. 

And that's how I feel about that.

Lighter


Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #234 on: September 27, 2019, 01:18:31 PM »
Lighter, THANK YOU.

This is a deeply perceptive, insightful and (hopefully) empowering post. I really appreciate the deep thought and the effort of it, too.

You articulate a very nuanced, compassionate and profound view-from-a-distance. That distance has actually enabled you to see what we're trying, as well as what we're up against, so clearly. Much more clearly than I have been able to, in fact. You also wisely reminded me to see the truth I'm trying to tell as ultimately good for both M and me. As his will be for me, regardless, because I care intensely about reality over delusion to guide my decision about a life with him.

I have a lot of hope pinned on whichever couples counselor we choose. I loved your phrase, "he needs to take back his biology." I'm not a teacher for that, but perhaps his own T could be, if M sees it and brings it up to him.

M seems to have a good deal of receptivity for what his own T observes. So I'm hopeful.

It's true it would be a massive relief to be heard somewhere that might make a difference. I'm not saying a counselor is going to pat me on the head and castigate M. I don't need or want either of those to happen. But I do yearn for a room in which M's runaway-talk-train can't overwhelm me, and where a neutral observer can guide us both in listening deeply to each other. Or, more likely, to reflect back to us when and what we have not heard well. And help us pace through the whole thing without panic -- either his or mine.

What you said about POV, and how it's not something to judge but just see as what impact my challenges to it are having...was incredibly helpful.

Above all, I think your analysis carries great compassion for M. And I appreciate that a lot. When I feel threatened or devoured or overwhelmed by the bigness of his emotions and nonstop expression of them...I can lose my internal commitment to compassion.

Basically, you've reminded me to remember my strength. I'm trying. I think the stroke, a cardiac monitor stuck on my chest, reading a recent detailed test result about my abnormal heart rhythms, and the actual physical sensations I feel in my chest when under big emotional stress...it's really my health that I'm trying to protect.

My personal challenge is to also calm down, and try to hold my balance and a calmer center when I'm in his company. It's a big challenge. But to continue toward the good stuff prevailing, I have to try to meet it.

Thanks again.

Gratefully,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #235 on: September 28, 2019, 10:34:16 AM »
Hops:

I believe you're the professor when it comes to exploring one's inner world, and shifting into observer mode. You know more about things being OK, even when they aren't OK, or don't seem OK.
 I call it the
"hold....
hold....
hold....." pattern of sitting with difficult feelings.  Some of life is learning how to DO that, and I was just talking to my T about it.  That skill, and it's usefulness.

If we can sit, and not go chattering on or DOING DOING DOING to escape difficult feelings.  Just waiting when we're in distress.  Not following old pathways, but turning attention inward to see what's there, what comes up.  M hasn't learned how to SEE his actions, thoughts, and feelings without judgment and panic.... yet. He hasn't learned to shift into your POV either.

 You have.  You do it all the time here, for him

I remember reading posts of yours, years ago, about just sitting with our difficult feelings.  Was that really 10 or so years ago?  More maybe?  And it took me this long to follow that thread to a place I could understand.

 You're up ahead, now, for M.  Shining a light if he'll see it.  Helping him learn to sit with his discomfort, for it has a message, and will not kill him, though his alarm bells warn they will.  This is the edge of epiphany for this lovely smart man.  I don't think he understands temporary upheaval is just temporary.   

You do. 

I wish he could see your intention to build safe happy space for the both of you.  I wish he could imagine you, as companion, when you feel comfort enough to love without fear or reservation.
 To love him without doubt.   

It's not an easy concept for a child, or panicked person to understand.... you flailing away, bc you require more distance in order to be OK with closeness and intimacy with M.   
Lord. 
That's hurtful to a person who can't stand space.  He's creating a need for more and more space with hiseifforts to close the distance.  ::shaking head::  And he can't SEE how that's going to go. You can. So YES... you're the one with more knowledge in these matters, and we'll see how the professor handles a woman of depth and unfamiliar substance.   

I guess M's T sessions will teach him the art of horse whispering.... not to BECOME a new person, or lose himself, but to shift into a new way of BEING inside himself.  Spending time in a horse corral is something kids do in Wilderness Camp.  They learn how to work together with an intense focus to gain a horse's trust, and cooperation.  They have to see things through the horse's POV, and I guess I just said you're the horse there, so forgive me, but that's my short version of that.

I agree, a good T will help you. 
Help M lean into change, and embrace it. 
Not fear it. 

Help M "hear" you, Yes.
The fear has to go for him to Do that, IME.


No one would ever think you'd want M castigated in a T session, and it's interesting you write that out, bc... you feel some discomfort around how your motives will be interpreted?  What was that about, Hops? 

And I'm sending you healing waves of pink light ((Hops)).  I wish I could send the spirits of nuns and nurses from Nonnatus House on Call The Midwife.  To hold our hands, and see this monitor business through.  To shield, and comfort you.  To lend their filters when you're overwhelmed and feeling devoured.

More deep breathing, for all of us,  is a good thing. That's where the calm is, IME.

Lighter




Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #236 on: September 28, 2019, 04:25:40 PM »
Thanks, Lighter.

I am hoping but do not know whether I'm strong enough to serve as a model of calm, and sitting with difficult feelings, for M. I have trouble sitting with my own, even though I know it's important. Given my health scares and other worries (including whether I need to go back to work to rebuild savings), I am not a huge reservoir of inner calm at the moment.

In that way, M and I are alike. We're both subject to anxiety. I think his is more intense because his career has required (and permitted) so much attention and focus that he doesn't have the energy left to approach self-insight with the same level of commitment.

My difficulty in being in relationship to M, as it was with my Nmother, is that it's a literally nonstop job, to hold my calm when the verbal bulldozer's running at top speed, the bull is rampaging repetitively around the china shop (me being, unfortunately, the china at times), and the sheer forcefulness of his personality and verbal torrents (however positive the mantras he repeats repeats repeats)...

just
freaking
wear
me
out

I'll try. I really want things to work out.

He allows no silence. He never, ever stops pushing for what he wants. He repeats and repeats and repeats what he wants as though I didn't comprehend it the first 20 times he said it.

Instead of arguing with him, I find myself lately just going quiet. He notices. After talking about himself for 10-15 minutes straight when I first see him, he'll notice I'm not as responsive (umm-hmm, oh my golly, that must've been this or that, wow, etc.) as I used to be. And then he'll manage, "How was your day?" Once I get out what I did, what went well or didn't, then he immediately begins to tell me how to fix what didn't. He does respond fairly well to the direct statement, I don't need you to fix it, I just wanted to talk about it. So that's progress.

We'll see. I really do think your understanding of him and what he needs is huge. Just huge. And I appreciate it tremendously.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #237 on: September 29, 2019, 09:41:28 AM »
Non-sequitor alert:

Lighter - that's a magnificent bit of knowing you shared there - and extremely helpful, even for me.

Hops: Holly is my "verbal bulldozer". (I'm so stealing that.) And the truth is, it kinda hurts, feels a little like a betrayal and it DOES make me doubt/question myself when the words are about me; how she's perceiving me (rightly or wrongly).

So, yes; I've done what Lighter described above and gotten a little more clarity about how I've left myself open for that and how much salt I need to add to it, when it comes at me.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #238 on: September 30, 2019, 11:02:16 AM »
Exhausting evening with M.
Started with a neighborhood walk. M wants to hold my hand, always. I generally don't enjoy holding his hand while we walk because our strides are so out of sync. His is shorter and I've usually got my dog on the leash. She and I have walked together for years and are kind of tuned to each other. I let her sniff-stop sometimes but urge her on others; have learned how to keep moving with her enough for her to be enjoying it and me too. Mainly, though, holding hands with M is difficult because his movements are jerky and he constantly fiddles with my hand. He doesn't mean it to be irritating but it is. I feel like a human fidget spinner. (M mentioned once that he likely has ADHD, fwiw.)

So many times when we walk, if my back feels even a bit out of balance, I choose not to hold hands because in my experience, it results ultimately in a sore back. I explain that gently. He forgets. I also have been thinking a lot about being more relaxed and calm, since the stroke. Wearing the monitor again does keep that on my mind. This itchy thing glued to my chest. So what I was looking forward to was just walking peacefully, enjoying the air and light, talking about anything or hopefully for SOME of the time, not talking.

M talked nonstop. I wasn't very responsive. So he began "teasing." Nonstop nonsequitors, just filling the air with comments and aiming his attention at me nonstop until I felt again...badgered. I tried to follow what he was saying but he was saying a lot of nonsense. I wasn't angry or pissy but just wasn't in a bantering mood. So he escalated, began jabbering things that made no sense. He kept saying when I'd ask a question to try to follow it, "I'm just TEASING you! I'm only JOKING!" The walk wasn't fun. I read too much teasing as screened anger, and am sure it was.

Then we took the dog home and drove downtown to meet our friends for dinner and a movie. I felt tuned out, and the hold-my-hand expectation came on again. I said I wanted to not hold hands because it was so hot, and I felt sticky. He looked offended and argued about it. We're still walking, my back is tensing.

By dinner I was relieved to have other people to focus on. M tried to dominate the conversation and two of my friends would not take the bait. They kept talking and laughing but didn't make him the center of attention. He looked confused and I felt badly but also didn't feel like soothing him.

At the start of the movie I did something I starting doing months ago every time we see a movie. Leaned over and said to him in a tender way, "Although I won't be holding your hand during the movie, I love you and I'm glad to be here with you." During the film he kept looking over and over at my hands and arms. I wound up clamping them in my lap, sensing nonstop that he was ill at ease because we weren't touching. I tried to enjoy the movie, mostly did. He liked it too. Near the end he reached for my hand again but I was concentrating on following the dialogue so didn't take it. (Plus, I had told him I didn't want to.) He withdrew his hand looking hurt. (Wrote me later how much rejection hurts.)

On the way home tension just built. At my house he again did his new "test" -- plaintively, may I have a hug before the evening is over? (We had hugged when he arrived but I wasn't touching him during our walk.) I said of course you can. And I hugged him when we got to my place. Then the next test--may I escort you to your door? I said, as I had before, No thank you.

He writes me an email about how hurt he is and how rejected he feels and how there must be physical affection and on and on and on. I write back about how I just wanted to feel peaceful and relaxed and that it's something I'm working on within myself, etc etc. And that sometimes I'm very affectionate and playful and other times I'm just in a quieter mood, thinking my own thoughts, but it's not to reject him, it's just a variation of mood. That I'd like to be able to have that inner stillness in his company at times.

Long story shorter, we write emails and he seems to make my physical availability a referendum on being loved and he expresses many complaints about rejection when I'm not in that frame of mind.

I think, largely because of coaching here, I got across how I feel when he's criticizing my inadequate displays of affection, or letting him walk me to the door, etc etc. He acts almost like a crossing guard, with lots of "child instructions" like, Be careful! Okay, cross now. I'm sure it's well intentioned, cultural and formal as he was trained to do. For me, walking through the world for decades on my own, it's maddening to try to adjust to.

And beneath that is just his huge neediness. He said just don't make me feel you don't care. I explained that I don't MAKE him feel his emotions; he reacts to his own experiences in his own ways just as I do. And told him repeatedly that I love him, and I've just been in a quieter mood lately. I've been doing a lot of introspection since the stroke and I have told him repeatedly that I feel I need to relax more.

I wound up writing long emails last night and woke to another complaint about how hurt he is when I don't feel like being touched. I wrote him a long thing about how I love him very much but don't feel I can do the job of reassuring him adequately, but am very hopeful that in our couple counseling, we'll learn ways to talk about it and navigate it that will help us both get our needs met. And then I sent him a meditation from YouTube on feeling rejected by others. It ends with an image with big red letters that say: feeling rejected is not about love for the other person.

I've also asked if I could come over later today. I had promised him we'd meet and talk whenever we're having a hard time and I want to do it if he does.

Whew and whew. It's sad to me, because the other night at dinner we had a wonderful, peaceful conversation. M said he understood much better why I'd seemed more withdrawn lately, felt reconnected to me and now he was "grounded." But one evening when I'm not hugging, touching and laughing and he's completely unmoored again.

I do have to be strong in order to help him the way Lighter described. I think I managed that as best I could. But I'm also concerned that his resentment and habitual focus on getting me to make him feel better will just escalate. I'll find out later when I see him next. He may be getting angry but not want to own that.

Thanks for listening, y'all. I'm okay but shoulders are tense and I want to get my mind off him and be in the present, enjoy a quiet day, and relax. Hope it's possible.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #239 on: September 30, 2019, 01:21:32 PM »
We're meeting Wednesday evening.
That's better, gives me a few days to focus (and I see my T tomorrow).
I'll ask her to help me prepare.

I've even thought of doing an abbreviated list that I wrote here -- the thing about the personal space/autonomy that I feel he violates. But I sense that'd be a bad idea. He told me as he pieced together things with his T today he felt more upset than ever.

I don't know if what feels threatening to me is "right" or fair but it struck me as an illuminating pattern.

Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."