Relationship/s

[lighter]

You've relaxed into this new life, Hops.

It seems right, and good, and worthy of you.

I hope it's all you want it to be, and more.

You deserve to be happy.  '

You deserve family, Hops.

Lighter






 

[Twoapenny]

Yes, what Lighter said!

It's really lovely, Hops, not least because you feel comfortable with the things he's suggesting.  You're not getting a sense of him wanting to control or dominate you, or picking up the tab because it makes him feel superior - and you would be picking that up if it were there because you've spent so many years thinking, learning, absorbing and being so honest with yourself that you'd be getting a tingling if there were something else underlying the situation.  But there isn't.  Two very good people who've both been though tough times have found each other and fitted together.  Really does happen.  And Pooch approves!  There is really no other test Lol.  I'm genuinely delighted for both of you and very excited about your upcoming trip xx

[Hopalong]

Sigh. Not a relationship ender, but the inevitable pink flag. Can't be all honeymoon all the time, so I'm evaluating this.

M is constantly talking and charming and storytelling. He's very dynamic and delightful. He's mostly fascinating and everyone I've introduced him to has enjoyed his company and been enthusiastic about us.

First time I've disliked him for anything happened yesterday. Two female friends were hanging out on my patio with us and he started talking about his first wife, the mother of his children. They had a painful second half (20 year marriage) that ended in one of those dramas wherein she had the house emptied one day when he was at work. I know that shocked and hurt him terribly and always felt so sorry when he'd mention it. But then yesterday, he holds forth about her for 40 minutes in front of two women friends of mine he'd only met once before each...and the way he tells the story I am disturbed and uncomfortable. He goes on about how awful she is, how one of her sons won't even talk to her, and then adds a gleeful anecdote about how his aggressive divorce lawyer advised him to go after half her federal pension. And he's so proud of that.

I suddenly realized that I think he's part of the problem. Not just the victim of a terrible person, although I have no reason to disbelieve that she turned into one over their marriage. He has told me they loved each other at the beginning and for some years were happy. But he clearly blames her for all of it...being very competitive with him, resentful about his career, etc. Yet he also has had overwhelming academic ambition, too. He acknowledged that once privately, when I was expressing compassion for her, and that she may have felt powerless.

Suddenly I thought, she was deeply unhappy, felt unappreciated (she had a good government job and also raised the kids, whom he adores but I wonder how deeply involved he was day to day)....etc. She may have dark characteristics (she is Norwegian and he blames some of it on that culture as though she's from a Bergman movie) and is estranged from her parents, whom he describes as this lovely old couple she's just randomly cruel to. I wondered instantly, could she be an abuse survivor?

He appears to have vigorously taken up the cause of her ancient parents, befriending them and encouraging the kids to be in relationship to them, which she didn't want. I don't know why, but it sounds as though he chose the kids over her and disregarded her wishes. He just states with complete confidence that they are utterly innocent and she is utterly cruel (she blew off a reconciliation visit). It could be true but sounds too simple.

Anyway, I really don't want to get enmeshed in the details of it...but I am aware his sons talk to M constantly about her and her being difficult, and though he says he's just very upset about their "suffering" because of her, I find myself thinking he's unconsciously enabling and feeding off their dislike of her.

It just felt to me that he was a martyred victim, bashing the mother of his sons to entertain two women he didn't even know well, and monopolizing as though we were all dazzled coeds at his brilliant knee.

I
did
not
like
it
at
all.

I wrote him later and expressed that I would feel less uncomfortable if he even said anything acknowledging her worth and dignity as a flawed human being. He wrote rationally but without feeling about her beauty, intelligence and being "personable" and that they'd had a happy early marriage. But then refocused on the ugly end of it and her terribleness. All may be correct, but I think he's not seeing how it might feel as a woman and a feminist woman to have listened to him talk about her that way, especially on a social occasion. I found it inappropriate and was very uncomfortable. Something about maybe trying to make women like you by trashing another woman with just one side of a story really sticks in my craw.

I felt withdrawn from him today and when he called tonight with his usual sweet murmury talk, I didn't feel our usual connection.

It's a difficult moment. We usually can talk through things but this one worries me. In case it's symbolic of some overall lack of empathy or dismissal of opinions or perspectives that don't fit his narrative. (He is always absolute in his confidence about ideas, all that...) I don't THINK so because he's so kind and generous and attentive and crazy about me, all of that...but for the first time, I feel unsure.

Tomorrow night I go there for dinner and we'll talk. I hope to hell we have a serious talk and he doesn't just blow off my thoughts. I do not want to be involved in his boycott or blaming of his ex. He had another --happy-- marriage in between, fer godsake. But I don't want to listen to him bashing her like that any more. It's not sitting right for some gut reason, and I definitely consider it a pink flag.

Thanks for listening,
Hops

[lighter]

Sorry, Hops. 

I don't have enough info to chime in here, but I do know how it feels to need people to understand the true essence of what happened in a relationship where one person manufactures chaos and destruction while others try to limit and heal the chaos. 

You don't know if the ex was abused, or if she's driven her kids away with PD behaviors that are truly impossible to live with.  You don't know if she's been abusive to the kids, for that matter.

I do appreciate the pink flag of someone, anyone blaming everything on the ex.  There's always a part we play, and it's nice when everyone steps up and owns what's theirs, kwim?

Then again..... children suffering, bc of PD behaviors, is a touchy subject for me.  I never understood it.  Can't abide it.  It sort of makes me crazy, and maybe there's a little bit of crazy going on for M on that topic too?  I can see wanting to strike out at her, verbally, and doing so when he's thinking about the kids.  It's upsetting.  People get upset about it.  They SHOULD be upset, IME.  Torture other adults, but don't harm the kids. 

It sounds like you have a charismatic man, who likes attention.  It sounds like he's used to commanding a room, and that it's nice most of the time, but not always.  There will be sweet and sour moments, unfortunately.  No one's perfect.  Everyone deserves the break we'd like to have for ourselves.  Love is about embracing everything... the negative qualities as well as the positive ones.  We can't have just the lovely aspects of a partner, and they get our whole package too.

Again, I'm sorry the first flag is waving, but encouraged you're communicating.  Working on feeling better about it seems like a good idea. 

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

You are a wise and sensible woman, Hops, and you and M will have a proper conversation about this, I'm sure.  My thoughts, for what they're worth -

You have no fear about bringing this up with him - that's a good sign.

If this incident indicated a generalised attitude towards women/other people/his own sense of self importance/abuse etc - I think you would have seen it long before now.

I think abuse and abusive relationships are always difficult and can be seen from different angles - in many cases there isn't a clear right and wrong.  Many people describe my mum as a lovely lady - she's always been lovely to others because it's part of the way she gaslights and convinces people I'm nuts and making everything up.  Relationships from years ago change in people's minds over time; we all forget things or even start to see things differently as we learn more in life.  It might be that he's stuck on some aspect of this (I'm blown away sometimes when I realise I've still got a nugget in me over a chance remark some bloke made to me thirty years ago - sometimes we just don't realise).  This might be his flaw or achilles heel, that part of him that isn't great, glossy, fun, uplifting - we all have those.  But I think the important thing is that you are both able to talk freely about this and separate out what happened many years ago from how things are now.

It's good that you're assertive enough to pick up on what makes you feel uncomfortable, verbalise it and are confident enough to discuss it with him.  And from what you've said he'll be able to listen and respond, and it strikes me that he'll be honest rather than just telling you what you want to hear?  That's just the sense I've had from what you've told us about him - he seems like an honest guy, rather than a flattering one?

Let us know how it goes.  In a way I think it's a good thing, Hops - there has to be a bit of a reality hit when you start seeing someone, because we've all got our flaws and dark secrets.  I think what's good is that you're both assertive and intelligent enough to discuss things openly and without fear. xx

[sKePTiKal]

Ok, this story and the way it was told bothers you Hops. And you're not inflating that to be more than it is, which is also good. So, let him tell the REST of the story about why that came out that way. Maybe that'll change your understanding of why he holds a little bitterness there - or it'll confirm something about him that is difficult to see under his general charisma and charm.

Given the level of discussions that Hol and I have, I've come to see that I still hold a lot of anger about Ex#1 (her dad)... a resignation about the way Ex#2 wouldn't meet me halfway within the relationship... and a little about the subtle ways Michael would stifle me and try to mold me into what he thought I should be. It's still so difficult for me to talk about the things that happened with Ex#1 that despite him living about an hour from here - I will NOT have him visit my house. He's a complex mess of hypocrisy, gaslighting, manipulation and other attributes that I found totally abhorent & horrifying (given my background) that I damn near have a panic attack at the thought that he would just drop in on us unannounced - like he did with Hol out at Steve's. (She was also creeped out by that behavior.)

So yes - when I speak about him I am pretty much 100% negative. Fortunately, I've forgotten so many of the stories and details and have learned how to let the past be the past and not NOW... that I can manage my emotions about it a lot better. Hol's perspective is naturally different than mine - and I acknowledge that difference for her. Just like she's seen with her own eyes, why I might feel the way I do. But he says things about me, that are even much worse than my "warding off the vampire" emotional verbiage STILL. It's been going on for all these years and he's never varied his strange version of the facts.

[lighter]

Hops:

I have to wonder if M just doesn't know how to use verbal jujitsu to BE HEARD, and not punished, when speaking about PD behaviors.  I remember a thread, or more than one, on this board where I was trying very hard to learn how to DO that.  You were helpful.  You tried to help me DO THAT.  Doc G tried to help me figure it out.  I think CB actually showed me with her own post to the same person I was trying to speak about, and it's a very difficult thing to do!

There's so much confusion,and misunderstanding, and the PDs thrive on it.  The truth tellers get crushed by it, IME.


Sometimes it's that we fail to gage the moment..... speaking about PDs can be like farting on an elevator, IME.   

I wonder why M was talking about it.  Did someone else bring up an ex, or a break up, or something that had him chiming in, OR was he using that story to entertain the troops, and misjudged his audience? 

I have to wonder if he knows you at all, Hops.  How could he not know your radar would go up on that one?

He should be schooled, and I hope you can treat his  misteps as opportunity to educate, rather than get defensive. 

I hope you can remain curious about his story, and the ex, and her parents, and the children in the middle of this debacle. 

Sometimes there's a PD in the middle, manufacturing chaos and confusion.  If M is that PD, then you better to know now, than later, IME. I think a few calm conversations about this will give you plenty of answers.


Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks so much all...I'm so grateful for YOU!!!
Will be quick now as I have to leave shortly (more later) but in brief:

Tupp--your reassurance that I can do this, communicate maturely, is huge. MWAH! Thank you. You always remind me I am more adult than I realize I am. Whew.

Skep--Yes, I get it why you don't allow the ex. I think M has residual hurt and anger, and his refusal to engage w/her makes sense. Just not sure what he's doing w/his kids, the older of whom does want his kids to see her and wants to maintain connection. I also think M has a big ego and competitive drive, which brought him huge success but may have soured their love. His crowing about taking half her pension doesn't sit well. With Real Money at stake their divorce battle must've been bloody. But...ugh. I'm a woman chronically stressed by unequal pay, so it was hard not to feel for her. He said she's fine now, living in a nice house. Just to rattle the branch, I might ask innocently, "Since you don't need it, ever thought of giving back the pension claim?" (No, I won't. But it's tempting!)

Lighter--I don't yet know whether M's ex is PD. Sometimes I'm unsure whether behavior that looks toxic is PD, or is trauma survivor attempts at self defense. Your thoughts make me think, though...and that's the best help. Thank you.

All--I will do my best to find clarity whether it all comes tonight or not. May need to not dig it vigorously all at once, but I'm feeling calmer about it and sense that more insight will come in time. I'm no longer reacting with recoil or anger but will know better how I feel about it once I'm with him again, in an hour.

THANKS for your support, I go forth with wise Amazons at my back!

love, muchly--
Hops

[Hopalong]

Morning, Amazons.
Thank you again so much for those messages...soooo helpful.

Talk at M's went okay. I don't think he fully grasped the thing I was trying to convey about how it felt to me to have him holding forth about his ex that way in front of my friends. He said "I don't care if it's not a good look, I was telling the truth!" But he told me a lot more about her, more incidents that did sound strange, hostile, and dramatic. He is very dramatic himself (has told me before he's a "drama queen") but one in particular was memorable. She asked him for a ride into Georgetown one day (they lived outside DC) and wouldn't specify why, so he dropped her off. Later that day he got a call from the hospital, a nurse saying "Your wife is ready to go home" -- she'd had a full facelift without telling him, but didn't arrange her transportation home, so he was rushing to the hospital all freaked out, etc. It was upsetting to him in a big way. They arranged for her to spend one night but to learn about it there, with her all bandaged...was freaky for him. I couldn't think of anything but, She got your attention.

Anyway, with that I felt I'd heard enough. They had a totally toxic, no connection breakdown of their relationship. I do think some of it had to do with his complete focus on ambition and her way of reacting was unhealthy and awful. It sounds as though she did escalate and use a lot of passive-aggressive surprises (facelift, house emptying) and something was very wrong with her. And he wasn't tuned into her at all. Miserable for her, between them, and he was plowing ahead. Ugh.

But I also connected more with understanding that he really was hurt and shocked by the end of it. He has clearly never fully gotten over it and really doesn't want to see her. He said, Well you can meet her at some birthday party, and I could walk over and say, Marete, I'm sorry for everything that happened to you. But every time anyone tries anything conciliatory toward her, he said it gets turned back around in their faces.

I understood better what he's dealing with. Or not dealing with. And I don't think he feels okay about it and tries to manage it through listening to the kids complain about her. (And venting to strange women he's just met.) I told him I thought it'd be a lot healthier if the kids, who are adult men in their 30s, dealt with their Mom stuff with therapists, because talking to him about it so much isn't good for them since he can't give them what a therapist could, imo. Then I just let it go.

It was a tough talk (Pooch was agitated and a good buffer -- "mommy and daddy aren't fighting, we're talking" and tuning in and laughing with/about her helped us reconnect). But we got into a better space.

Weird. Relationships. Trust. And especially for me -- closeness v. recoil. I have to manage my own feelings so I don't over-react, too. The whole thing affected me.

But it's a beautiful day, we'll see each other at exercise class shortly and I work this afternoon. Friday I'll go swim at his place and then we'll eat downtown. I think we're going to work through this. And one good thing was we did talk well. No big argument, but a difficult conversation. It's pretty complicated and I will be well off to stay out of their old stuff, I think.

love
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Since I'm currently experiencing my own "close encounter with extreme unpleasantness from the past"... a couple things, from how I'm trying to thread a path to beyond it.

1. It still feels just as awful, threatening, whirlwindy, steamrolling as it did initially. Every.Single.Contact. That's my problem and I have better coping mechanisms that I engage immediately. It doesn't make the feeling go away; it just allows me to bear it until it subsides.

2. It's not my job to respond anymore to the catalyst that sets that off in me. (Merely, take care of myself.) NO has been said loud and clear, I'm not changing my mind, and I MUST - for my own good - absolve myself from blame & responsibility for any choices or consequences that I don't control that arise from it in the future from that NO. I'm fully free to choose "NO", and I don't have to explain why to ANYONE.

3. There is a very dangerous, volatile and unpredictable anger underlying the fear, confusion, and frustration and horror on the surface of my feelings. Venting that, analyzing while in this state, all lead to higher probability of conflagration. When I'm not feeling this way - is when I can make rational choices and gain insights.

4. I'm well aware my reaction would appear to be out of proportion to actual facts here. I'm owning that; and the experience that's contributed to the feeling that has a life of it's own. But that's how certain I am that I won't touch anything about the situation or this person, with a 10 foot pole.

My previous "no" was apparently not taken seriously or even heard. Fortunately, there are others who a) feel the same way and b) we are united in our response. 

Communication isn't possible when you're not actually heard or your feelings accepted as legitimate under the circumstances.

[lighter]

Hops:

I'm sorry you didn't completely clear the air with M, bc he'd do well to fully understand your feelings in this matter, IMO.  Baby steps.

That said, it's hopeful you could talk, and not argue.

As long as you don't feel you're being herded into NOT having a dissenting opinion, into NOT being able to raise concerns, into NOT speaking your mind, even when it's not easy for M..... I think you're surf'n real good: )

Trauma bonding is a slow creeping thing, IME.

Amber, I was told that feelings, like you're experiencing recently.....
the in your face HERE AND NOW FEELINGS are best dealt with through somatic T.  I can say that the little Somatic T I did helped a good deal. 

Truth be told, I hate that those negative feelings have any power over you at all.  The same with my stuff.... I hate losing another minute to them.

I think it would be better if those powerful reactions and feelings could be banished, instead of endured.  I don't want to simply endure.  I want to notice when they're absent, and feel gratitude that they're gone, or at least lessened, which is where I am now.  I don't go out the door every morning with my guard up, and it's a revelation I hardly notice anymore.  Not that I'm out of the woods, bc I'm not.  I just have more distance, and I needed help to do that.   

lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Most of the time, I do have that distance and can stay centered in objectivity more than emotion. But due to some "piling on" the past few weeks... I was vulnerable because of the timing.

[lighter]

You do have a lot on your plate, Amber.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

I think the fact that you're able to talk about it without fear, or an argument, or someone walking out or slamming doors, is the key thing, Hops, and I'm glad you've been able to chat it through.

I know I have my own hang ups, triggers, over reactions, under reactions and so on.  We are what we are, warts, bad experiences, bits we still aren't ready to deal with yet and we all have that, whether we know it or not.  I think the honesty and openness you both have is amazing and I love that he is real with you - he didn't pretend it was anything other than what it is, or has been.  I think this is a good blip to get through (and there had to be something, what with tutu twirling and whisking you off to Paris, something in there had to be a bit grainy! lol).  I'm glad you've talked it through and got it all out in the open xx

[Meh]

Wow Hops a full facelift without telling him.  (some cliche saying here about how we all have an inch of dirt in our bags??       At least you have the balls to try a relationship.