Author Topic: Trying to "Save People"  (Read 4317 times)

Bloopsy

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Trying to "Save People"
« on: January 15, 2005, 07:30:12 PM »
Hi everybody. This is something that I am trying to take as a lesson from the universe. Anyway I admit that for a lot of my life I arrogantly thought that I should always try to help and save other people, not in a nice way I don't think, well at least it didn't feel nice but rather pretty compulsive and looking back I am trying to learn this lesson without beating myself up for being arrogant and hopefully become less arrogant in the process. I admit that I have a hard time learning things because a part of me is so bent on "shaming" me about whatever it is that I am trying to learn that I panic and end up not learning much and afraid of the topic ingeneral, you know??????????????????????????? Anyway at the risk of exposing myself as really arrogant, before I had what I hope is my last nervous breakdown type of episode which I am still in but working my way out of I always kind of thought like it was my job to "make"(I didn't realize how conrolling this is) other people feel good, talk about their problems with them ad nauseum without regard for if I felt like I was gonna go nutso, felt like I wasn't allowed to get angry or have any boundaries if someone treated me badly I would feel like who do I think I am to get offended, and I got even more compulsive about this after my friend  killed himself and more survivors guilt came my way.
I feel like it might help me to get my mind straight to look at my own situation and and I think to myself, you know, nothing anybody else does is going to "make" me better, nobody can FORCE me to do the things I need to do, it is my choice, and if I get worse there is nothing anyone else can do because tha\t means I am just not ready to get better then.  I have all the help I need but something inside me is  cowering away from it. Anyway I hope that this will help me to learn to live and let live. Thanks for listening. Can anybody relate to this??

BlueTopaz

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Trying to "Save People"
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2005, 03:09:54 AM »
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Can anybody relate to this??


Hi Bloopsy.  I think I can relate.

I never looked at it as trying to "save" people in my case, but since I am a very good listener by nature people constantly pick up on this and use it as an opportunity to pour out their souls to me in the greatest of detail.

Many times I had no regard for my own boundaries, just like you say. I might have been emotionally exhausted, and with my own problems to worry about, but I kept listening to unessessary, lengthy details.  I felt like I needed to help them to vent because I know just talking about something can make a big difference to people a lot of the time.

Now I do not allow people to re-hash the same story over & over (very good at that one-hooray!) but I still have a lot of trouble with feeling stuck and stressed in initial conversations or with new info. updates that go on forever, where a person is venting.

You know, one day last summer I was sitting in the park minding my own business (reading) and an older woman came up to me and asked if she could sit at the same picnic table.  Plenty of room so I said "yes" of course.  Well, it wasn't long before she began pouring out her life story to me, and began cry & wail so hard and tell me how depressed & upset she was.   At the end of it all she said "I knew to come and sit at this table (out of so many others) because you looked so kind(??!!)  

I'm not sure how a perfect stranger could sense something about me when merely walking by a bench I was doing nothing by sitting quietly at!  Well, if I think about it I might have an idea but it's not important to mention.  I did feel put upon by her intensity but there again I felt like she really needed someone that day and I had to help her.  And I let down my boundaries completely as she mentioned she was afraid to go back to her apartment because she'd had an argument with her landlord, and asked me to walk her back (it was about 5 min. away). I did!    I didn't really want to, but I did because I just felt like I had to, to be a decent human being.  

What killed me inside is that after thanking me graciously she apologized.  "For what"?  I asked.   She said "because I dumped on you- I used you to get everything out".    I was soooo crushed  inside and furious at my own boundary violation after I heard that (though I didn't let on to her).  She didn't mean it in a bad way at all. She was very grateful and actually trying to be kind in apologizing.  But it confused the heck out of me on what I should do in the future.  Am I being used and should not be so willing to help to the degree I do, or am I doing something of value that a decent human being should do and continue?  I still have no idea where to draw those kinds of boundaries.

Feeling "used" taps into my deeper childhood born feelings of voiceless and worthlessness that I have struggled with, so this is why her comments hit me so hard.

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I have all the help I need but something inside me is cowering away from it.


Yes, me too in the deeper areas I could use it (not with surface things I need help with).  It is a big problem for me to feel like I can reach out to others the way people reach out to me.

I do hope that getting your thoughts straight within your own self on it will help you with the way you deal with others, as you say.  Comparing others to how you look at yourself within that context is a really good way to look at it.

BT

Anonymous

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Trying to "Save People"
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2005, 11:31:39 AM »
Interesting topic and one I struggle with too.

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Am I being used and should not be so willing to help to the degree I do, or am I doing something of value that a decent human being should do and continue?

Maybe it depends on how you feel about it. If you recognise what is happening as it happens, and you choose to listen etc, then you choose to help and you remain in control of your actions. If you are choosing your actions then you aren't being 'used'? Thoughts?

Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2005, 12:21:58 PM »
Bloopsy, BT, Guest,

I listen to a lot of venting from people, too. But I have a "line in the sand" after which I cut them off and decide to block further venting from them. If it's a stranger, I will only listen to a tiny bit before somehow interrupting and cutting them off. I have ways of doing it that are pretty tactful. The person still feels understood and I don't get the life sucked out of me.

Bottom line, if it becomes a "him or me" situation where someone is going to be used and possibly drained, I choose "me". The other person is going to have to find some other avenue of help. I'm convinced they will. I can't singlehandedly save them so I'm not going to try.

Setting limits is not a bad thing, it usually helps everyone. The trick is to see it as benevolent rather than being "mean."

bunny

mum

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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2005, 12:51:07 PM »
I have been reading many of these threads, including responses to my own (Helping my kids) and am overwhelmed with a sense of kinship with many of you.
I have found a similarity in a lot of these posts.  It is not some coincidence at all, but a simple thing.  We, the "ex's of N's" are healers, for the most part.  I would be willing to bet most of you, like me, are the kind of people that wouldn't hurt a fly.  We care more about others' feelings than anything, including our own (but we are working our way out of that, aren't we?).  We attracted N's because of our innate abilities to feel for others, and actually take thier pain for them.  We are probably targets of our ex-N's still , as they cannot see why we won't do that for them anymore.
In this whole process, perhaps accentuated by religious training, family dynamics, life experiences, etc, we have lost our "seniority" over life.  The result being that although we take the pain, we are not sure what to do with it, and it becomes who we are, the true self becoming lost under it.
There are very few places, religious trainings, self help books, traditional therapists, that help us to LET GO of this pain we so naturally attract.
There is a distinction here I would like to make: energetically speaking, we can also "attract" to us negativity especially if our core values about ourselves are so scewed that we are perpetual victims.  I no longer am that, and every day I affirm that with my intention (lots of work) however, I realize that my true self is indeed a healer of sorts (by career, I am a teacher, no surprise there).
So in accepting this, I now see that people come to me, are presented to me, seek me out, because of that.  Since I learned that my life is a choice, always, every day, and that my life and my life circumstances are two very different things, I have learned how to "drop" and transform this negative energy for myself, thus it would seem I attract  souls whose only wish is to either learn how to do that for themselves (the ultimate in helping others is to teach them to do it for themselves), or to simply ask me to alleviate thier pain for them by taking it away for a bit (the "dumping or venting").
Certainly, as we all know, this "dumping" is temporary, for if they do not learn how to let go of thier own pain, they will  be back, either ready to request more constructive help of you, or they will keep dumping on you repeatedly, as an addictive behavior.  No it isn't healthy to be someone's addiction is it? (hey, we've learned that one, huh?)
This is where the "boundaries" come in.  I have learned to trust myself with this.  If I put "out there" (to the universe, God, whatever) that it is my intention to learn what those boundaries are, without malice of ego serving or vindictiveness (I work on that all the time with ex), I usually get a response... Either the person no longer wishes to talk to me, or the person actively attempts to learn and grow from thier pain, which is why pain exists for us in the first place and I am happy to share what I know and encourage them to seek this for themselves.
Whew!  So after this long explaination I encourage you to  trust yourself most of all,  because you are sought truly because of your ablilities and  kindness, not because you are a sap and doormat ( that's the ex N victim talking... that's not who you are).
WE are all perfect as our true selves, even the N's who have hurt us, and we all have a chance to find that out on this path.  
As far as the "arrogance" of "fixing" others, (was it on this post or another?), I understand what you are saying, but I encourage you to be kinder to yourself.  This negative self criticism only encourages a poor vision of yourself.  So what if you thought you could heal people and didn't?  Nobody can really heal anyone else, it is all intenal.  May be that's what you meant.  Let go of that image of yourself....is it constructive to hang onto that?  If you have let it go, good for you!!!

BlueTopaz

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Trying to "Save People"
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2005, 12:57:53 AM »
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Maybe it depends on how you feel about it. If you recognise what is happening as it happens, and you choose to listen etc, then you choose to help and you remain in control of your actions. If you are choosing your actions then you aren't being 'used'? Thoughts?


Hoping not to "hijack" the original person's topic/concerns.

I think you are right, guest.  Even if the other feels they are using you, if you don’t feel it & are doing as you wish, then that is what matters.  Now that you mention it I recall I have felt exactly that way before.  Others have stated re. imposing on me and I didn’t feel as such whatsoever.  In fact I had been enjoying our interaction.

Several times I am not enjoying it, and because I did not want to go as far in helping as I did with the woman in the park, I guess it felt more like being used (which was my own doing & fault) which gave a bunch more emotional weight to her words as well.

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I listen to a lot of venting from people, too. But I have a "line in the sand" after which I cut them off and decide to block further venting from them. If it's a stranger, I will only listen to a tiny bit before somehow interrupting and cutting them off. I have ways of doing it that are pretty tactful. The person still feels understood and I don't get the life sucked out of me.


Hi Bunny,

What always gets to me is that I think things like “if that were my (non N & loving) mother in the park who needed someone, I’d be so grateful for someone to be there for her, like I was.”  It was about 2 hours of my time and then it was finished.  No, I didn’t feel comfortable to the level we got into & walking her back, but I think about how very much the one-off kindness of a stranger can make a huge difference to someone as well.

I will think a lot about what you said about the degree of helping.  I can consider helping, which will make a difference, but not always to the extent I do.  That it is benevolent to do whatever level I feel okay with & that it shouldn't be at my emotional expense.  That is sounding better already!  I wonder why I was thinking that I had to give them everything they were "asking for" emotionally...   I'll think on that one for some self learning.

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I affirm that with my intention (lots of work) however, I realize that my true self is indeed a healer of sorts (by career, I am a teacher, no surprise there). So in accepting this, I now see that people come to me, are presented to me, seek me out, because of that.  

I encourage you to trust yourself most of all, because you are sought truly because of your ablilities and kindness, not because you are a sap and doormat.


Yes. I understand what you are saying very, very much.  My vocation is in the counseling field (“healing” type field as you say).  I very rarely tell anyone that because I get enough of that type of energy just naturally in my life (outside of any work) without mentioning something like that!  I also feel this way about my true self, and I really, really like what you say about trusting why one is sought.

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If I put "out there" (to the universe, God, whatever) that it is my intention to learn what those boundaries are, without malice of ego serving or vindictiveness (I work on that all the time with ex), I usually get a response...


Yessss wonderful stuff.  I am very big on setting intention.  I think it is a little known and thought about way of being that can be extremely affective to a person's life.  I'm really glad you highlighted this notion because it brings its importance into my consciousness again. A fav. book of mine that talks a lot about that is "The Seat Of The Soul" Gary Zukav.

BT

Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2005, 02:01:58 PM »
(I should say who I am, I guess - "Guest" who posted the Narcissism I-!II threads. Good point elsewhere about too many "Guests" - I'll try to think of a username and log in next time)

I've done a lot of what you've described in the past. I am not very likely to willingly do so anymore - that is the listening to others without end, "making" tham feel good, "fixing", etc...and  Idid also believe, on some level, that it was my obligation, sort of like I might not really exist if I did not have this role for others. Interestingly, I never have asked for that for me, not outside of a therapist's office - I still am not sure I would know how. Need to work on that.

I thinik I decided at one point that this is a kind of "stealth" narcisissim (A person I know to be grappling admirably with diagnosed NPD refers to things like this as "harmless/positive feed", which he consciously uses to balance his narcisisstic tendencies and avoid hurting others), in that it grants (temporary) validation, acknowledgement, a sense of importance  - all lacking in a person without voice. Turning the situation on it's head, I was unflinchingly available for anyone who needed m eat least partly in order to help prop my sad little self-image up, not unlike any garden variety narcisisst. I did and still do truly care and empathize, but if I don't admit that sticky little bit of similarity to myself, I won't make much progress.

Ultimately, I came to realize that most, though not all, those who took advantage of my willingness would do that just about anywhere they could - and that furthermore, they did not really listen most of the time, thus few of those "grants" were truly meaningful, nor did I often help on a lasting basis. I also think that allowing myself to be a repository for the problems of others allowed me to very effectively avoid my own issues.

The real and serious down side of this is that it reinforces voicelessness, in the sense that we run the risk of simply becoming vessels for the voices of others, and can neglect to cultivate our own.

Having looked at all the above, I can now make a very conscious decision about whether or not I am seeking validation, distracting myself, whether I can realistically help (whether the person wants help or just wants to unload), and most importantly - if the time is right for ME to do so.

I think there have been many, many times when I should not have - I needed to deal with my own issues, and in some case, I just had better things to do than listen, as the previous respondent said, to the same story over and over again. I think often when I did that, I perpetrated abuse on myself, lacking someone to do it for me at the moment.

BlueTopaz is right, in my estimation: whether it's bad to do so depends on whether or not it is your choice - I think I would just add to that that the choice should be "informed", including consideration of one's own deeper motives and those of the helpee - and whether, simply, it's a good time or not.

I think one is more likely to make a bad decision if one is feeling needy or unseen/unappreciated at the time. A careful inventory of your own feelings on a case-by-case basis should help with the decision. One should never cut all ties to caring, empathy and helping others - but those efforts should be reserved for meaningful cases - or at least convenient ones.

BlueTopaz

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Trying to "Save People"
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2005, 06:57:15 PM »
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The real and serious down side of this is that it reinforces voicelessness, in the sense that we run the risk of simply becoming vessels for the voices of others, and can neglect to cultivate our own.


Very beautifully put.  I have felt exactly this before.  By ignoring my personal boundaries with people I have felt it has done nothing but reinforce feelings of voicelessness in me, as I ignore my own self needs. In these cases I feel I am treating my own self as if my (inner) voice doesn't matter, hold value or is worthless.  

I see more clearly now that when I allow my boundaries to be violated like that, I am perpetrating upon my own self now, the pain of the very life issues that began outside of me (as a child), and that have been my most deep life issues to work through.  I am the one keeping the hurt & pain alive when I do that.

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Having looked at all the above, I can now make a very conscious decision about whether or not I am seeking validation, distracting myself...  


Great points. I know that sometimes I have listened endlessly because I really thought the person needed an ear just then, and so it was for them.  But if I am honest, I also think that at least some of the time I have done so due to wishing for validation of the value of my voice, and my self worth.  "Funny" thing is though, it works the exact opposite in that unless one genuinely wants to help for the right reasons (they feel they can to a degree & it is the right time for the helper) the only thing that gets validated in helping is one's voicelessness & worthlessness!

I really hadn't acknowledged that part (why sometimes I override my boundaries) to myself before now. I have learned some valuable things from this thread.

BT

Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2005, 07:37:32 PM »
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I see more clearly now that when I allow my boundaries to be violated like that, I am perpetrating upon my own self now, the pain of the very life issues that began outside of me (as a child), and that have been my most deep life issues to work through. I am the one keeping the hurt & pain alive when I do that.


So true, BT, and also well put!! This is mostly where I am right now (or would like to think I am anyway :wink: ). After sifting and machinating for several months about what he did to me, the only real road to change/growth/healing/forgiveness is to focus on why I allowed the situation to dramatically alter my life.

Best,

bludie

Portia

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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2005, 06:55:04 AM »
Bloopsy you started a great thread here! I’m going to read it all again but just wanted to say to BT:

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I know that sometimes I have listened endlessly because I really thought the person needed an ear just then, and so it was for them. But if I am honest, I also think that at least some of the time I have done so due to wishing for validation of the value of my voice, and my self worth.


Me too, definitely, but that isn't necessarily 'bad' is it? Testing ourselves like that. Thinks: 'I must be worth something if they’re willing to share their stuff with me. I must be trustworthy, loyal.' Then I put ‘loyal’ on my CV and employers see ‘sucker’!

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"Funny" thing is though, it works the exact opposite in that unless one genuinely wants to help for the right reasons (they feel they can to a degree & it is the right time for the helper) the only thing that gets validated in helping is one's voicelessness & worthlessness!


It’s the ‘genuinely’ that’s the tricky part! We can look and look inside ourselves for our motives and see what we are able to see at the time. Years later we can see much better what happened and why. We can’t achieve perfection in human interactions can we? We can only keep learning? Maybe that’s a good thing. It’s in those cracks of imperfection that we can find creativity and new ideas and connections..

Portia

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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2005, 07:54:40 AM »
Back again. I really like your words Guest above.

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Ultimately, I came to realize that most, though not all, those who took advantage of my willingness would do that just about anywhere they could

I just need to repeat this to myself a few times. :roll:  It’s not me they need, it’s anyone with ears. I do not have a special meaning for them. It’s tricky when it’s your parents isn’t it? You have to keep on recycling that knowledge until it finally lodges in your head. I do not have a special meaning for them. Very difficult to fully accept.

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- and that furthermore, they did not really listen most of the time, thus few of those "grants" were truly meaningful, nor did I often help on a lasting basis.

Yep! I gave advice at work. One girl would moan to me about struggling with debt. I heard enough of the moaning so I gave advice. She took it for a week and then spent a load of money on expensive clothes. I felt annoyed, worthless, my advice meaningless, useless.

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I also think that allowing myself to be a repository for the problems of others allowed me to very effectively avoid my own issues
Indeed. Particularly when you’ve been trained to be a repository for everyone else’s problems?  Too easy!

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I can now make a very conscious decision about whether or not I am seeking validation, distracting myself, whether I can realistically help
Another to add on: or whether I am testing my reality by offering an alternative view? If we don’t talk and exchange information, we can’t change our minds can we? And if I say what I think and someone disagrees with me, maybe I have the opportunity to change my mind? So when we’re in listening/helping/validation mode, maybe we could also challenge ourselves a bit by asking ‘and what do I think of this?’. I listened to a lot of stuff from one of my managers, some of which was distasteful to me but I didn’t let on. Nowadays I just might say so, or at least leave the room! :arrow:

Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2005, 12:15:44 PM »
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whether I am testing my reality by offering an alternative view


Interesting, although I am somewhat unclear. I hear that, by itself,  as "By questioning my own motives for behavior X, I am voluntarily exploring alternate views about myself and my positions".

I am confused about the meaning in the follow up, though, since it seems to take the idea from being internal to external. That idea, by itself, makes sense and is a good one, too, however. I'm just sticky on the transition.

You're right about the tricky-with-parents part. With my mother, the main focus is her health (or lack thereof), which is something she's been working at destroying-yet-centralizing for as long as I can remember. I cannot tell you how many times, even recently, I've repeated myself in response to her concerns. It's so hard to listen to, while I see that she stubbornly does nothing to improve the situation. I do try to ACT sympathetic, but I've frankly run out of supportive feelings, so it IS pretty much an act at this point.

In terms of personal weakness, I see some of the same self-destructive patterns in me, the difference being that I don't talk about it or ask for symapthy - I just do it, I know it's my own damn fault, but continue, silently, anyway down the path of self-destruct. She just likes to think of it as some kind of Saintly thing, to be ill (a peculiarly Southern manifestation), so she cultivates illness because she can't think of another way to be Saintly and Important. I know damn well I'm not saintly, I'm twisted-for-gawds-sake, otherwise I would being doing more constructive things than smoking, overeating, and general self-sabotage. (Consider this my "other-bitching" for the day).

I have, at times, benefited from my own brainstorming on someone else's behalf. By looking at someone else's situation, necessarily more objectively than at my own (My (Darling) Opia), I have been able to inadvertently gain insight into myself. This can be good.

That fortunate outcome is limited, however, and as regards the repeaters, nothing new is learned with each sucessive telling. The cast may or may not change, but the lines remain the same.

One way of looking at the "saving others" behavior may be "I'm so gosh darn desperate for (entertainment? validation? escape?) that I will happily watch the same episode of the same TV program every day, indefinitely, even though I need only push cahnnel up to expand my horizons". (This just occurs to me now).

Pardon me, I'm rambly on account of having a tense day. Hopefully I haven't stepped on anyone by going too far afield.

This is a really good thread, though.

BlueTopaz

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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2005, 12:45:31 PM »
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but just wanted to say to BT:

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I know that sometimes I have listened endlessly because I really thought the person needed an ear just then, and so it was for them. But if I am honest, I also think that at least some of the time I have done so due to wishing for validation of the value of my voice, and my self worth.  

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Me too, definitely, but that isn't necessarily 'bad' is it? Testing ourselves like that. Thinks: 'I must be worth something if they’re willing to share their stuff with me. I must be trustworthy, loyal.' Then I put ‘loyal’ on my CV and employers see ‘sucker’!



Hey Portia,

Hehehehe (re. CV)  :D  

Great distinction/point.  Nope.  Like you, I don't think it is necessarily a black-white judged "bad" thing across the board.  

I am only speaking in the context of when I overstep my personal boundaries & allow myself to be drained.  If I am doing something mostly for validation & that something is at my own emotional expense I don't think it is healthy in that very specific circumstance.

I figure that is actually often the basis of getting in, and staying stuck in abusive relationships.  Trying to get a deep-seated self need met in an unhealthy way.

 If I am doing something mostly for validation & that something is not at my own emotional expense, I think it is different.  I agree with you 100% that if I am in the mindset that I want to offer support to the level I am doing so (which is within my boundaries or the "want" would change to "not want") just in order to test some self thinking concepts for validity, or even just because I want to feel a little validation while I am supporting someone, it can be really helpful and self educational to "experiment" like that for sure.  

Best,

BT

Portia

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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2005, 08:09:23 AM »
Ack guest! Do you mind if I use bold on your words? I feel it might be a bit impertinent. You're not stupid or slow and I don't want to insult your IQ but hey, wait a minute...

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With my mother, the main focus is her health (or lack thereof), which is something she's been working at destroying-yet-centralizing for as long as I can remember. I cannot tell you how many times, even recently, I've repeated myself in response to her concerns. It's so hard to listen to, while I see that she stubbornly does nothing to improve the situation. I do try to ACT sympathetic, but I've frankly run out of supportive feelings, so it IS pretty much an act at this point.


just popping in and not much time but well, I wanted to say... :( I'm sorry guest. Bunny said something elsewhere about being "annoyed" I think. I liked what you said Bunny and wanted to talk about it - being annoyed because we're still acting out vs. being healthily annoyed and realising we can't do or say any more and moving on. But I gotta go, apologies. Important stuff in here I feel. And it applies to me too. More anon....best to all, P

PS I haven't read other threads today so if this is covered elsewhere....I haven't seen it yet.

Anonymous

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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2005, 12:11:58 PM »
I get your point, no offense taken, Portia. My IQ, I like to think, is high enough but not as high as I would like it to be. Sigh. Plus my butt is entirely too big. Life can definitely be a rip-off, no?

Seriously, though:

"It's so hard to listen to" does imply some annoyance, but more deeply, it makes me sad because she is, literally, killing herself. It amounts to a slow suicide. To distance myself from that by "running out of sympathy" protects me both from the annoyance and the pain of watching it. For me, annoyance is more superficial and does not involve much caring, one way or the other - just inconvenience. That's my definition, anyway.

I agree with you about similarities in other posts (and a certain relevance to your comments), but I would feel more comfortable if we kept debates in that one or another similarly separate- just for the sake of the original poster.