Mother in my head

[Portia]

Thank you GFN. Thought I’d start a thread and dump my stuff here.
Note to self: buy Stop Walking on eggshells.

Their personality is disordered and their trying to get it from us only makes them fat with more disorder?

 Just had to grab this GFN, coz she’s become physically fat over the last few years.

How do you think she might react? What might come out of her mouth?

Depends on what I say. I could say: “I’d like you to acknowledge that my childhood was pretty grim. I’d like to see if you can remember any of my childhood.”  

I’ll just get hurt. I guess I could regale her with tales of my childhood, but she won’t really listen. She’ll listen for the ‘blame’ alert and will interrupt me to tell me it wasn’t her fault. Or she’ll just listen, emotionless.

Which hurts more? Imagining/guessing? Not saying/playing?

I think I can have a good guess at what she’d say to anything. It wouldn’t help me. I just go into shock/anger/sadness again. I’m just sad. I’m hurt that she doesn’t know, doesn’t care. What’s the point in telling her my stuff? She won’t say sorry.

Does letting go mean the relationship you have, or the one you wish for?

 We don’t have any relationship (do we?). Occasional correspondents? Shall I still send her birthday cards etc? If I stop, will she simply stop sending me anything? I guess that’s playing. Does it hurt me enough to stop it? Would it hurt my conscience more to hurt her, to hurt her, to hurt her – for her ego surely would take a hit. I think she’d be hurt. I keep her image somewhat inflated. Much less now than I used to. She knows and understands so little. I also feel sorry for her. I can’t seem to shake that, no matter what she does, no matter how shocked I am. Although she says she's happy.

What I wish for is some recognition that I am – what? A daughter I guess. And not a ling-change. On a simple level I’d like to be recognised, literally, I’d like her to be able to spot me in a line up of two, that would be nice. That would be nice, crumbs, scraps. Not good enough.  Some part of me thinks she hates me and daren’t say it. I think she does heavily identify me with her mother, she says stuff which shows it (expects me to be shocked, disapproving). And in her most recent email, the defensive stuff, she was drawing herself in against what I guess was an attack (perceived or real?) from me. She knows I’m getting into this stuff (this stuff, here on the net) and was basically saying ‘I don’t want to know’.

What do I want? I want to exist. I do exist. Some days I think the world isn’t big enough for both of us, know what I mean? “And it ain’t me who’s gonna leave” (anyone remember the old Sparks song? Might be too obscure.)  You think I should go and rage at her? It would be good for me? The guilt? Seriously.

edit

Sorry about your brain, P. It'll be ok. It's a good brain.

Thanks GFN but it feels pretty stupid most of the time (and then sometimes it thinks it knows the ‘truth’ and the truth is very dark). It went loopy last night, I looked at the board and had a ‘reality check’ attack. Didn’t believe external reality. Still don’t. I never tell the whole truth, who does? I suspend disbelief but it hangs there in the air, waiting to drop. I’m sorry but that’s the best I can do.  

Thanks for reading. Suggestions, observations, cut-through-the-crap-comments, I love ‘em. Please don’t hesitate.

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia,

Have you ever disconnected completely from your mom before?
You seem to have some hope that she will not behave the way she always has before. Or that if you just give her one more try she'll throw you a scrap.
I don't think she ever will.
Maybe the best thing for you in the long run is to try and not hope for that recognition from her ever at all. Maybe that hope, which will probably never be fulfilled, keeps you from trying the things which might get her out of your brain. Maybe that hope keeps you tied to an anchor that keeps you forever stuck in port.
I don't think raging at her would help you. It probably helps more to rage at her here than to her face. At least here you're talking to people who understand and can give you feedback and support. To her face you'll just get a perplexed blink and then have all the blame laid at your feet. and then you'll feel guilty and betrayed again.
I'm sorry such a rotten mother is in your head.
Which gives you less pain? Contact or no contact with her?
You also are a very thoughtful and analytical person. Maybe a little less thought and a little more instinct would help?

Some days I think the world isn’t big enough for both of us, know what I mean?

It isn't. Maybe it would help if you could make your own world without her in it.

My autistic cousin. Who seems a little more than autistic, he says Jesus talks to him and asks him for his help “he wants me to help him carry his cross”. That’s not autism alone is it? He takes himself off to the local facility, voluntarily. Diagnosis anyone?

Either he's delusional or very wise.

Prayers for you Portia and some,
(((((Portia)))))

mudpup

[bunny]

Portia,

Your mother sounds deeply disturbed. I think she has very serious emotional problems. She is severely infantile and can't separate you from her from her mother from the autistic cousin from others she considers idiots (i.e., herself). She can't individuate between people. Her boundaries are problematic. She hates herself. She has murderous rage. Basically you will be lucky to have a reasonable conversation with her at all, based on the fact that she is barely functioning.  

Couple of things about her that struck me...

She said 'someone' thought she'd get back together with your father. It was she who was fantasizing about that, or, at least not rejecting the idea. She put it out there for you, hoping you would accept her fantasy. This is the equivalent of a small child telling an adult about their pretending and hoping the adult will not shame them.  If she says this again, I might say, "Oh, really?" with no further comment. This will make her feel understood. If she feels understood, she might be slightly nicer to you.


If she offers you a cigarette, I would take that as her way of sharing part of herself. It's the equivalent of a small child offering her toy to a grownup. I would lean toward taking the cigarette even if I didn't smoke it, as a goodwill gesture.

My strategy would be to consider her a small child and use a few tricks for that age level. It's very unfair that she is the child and you have to be the adult. This is why I'm so in favor of therapy. The therapist can act as surrogate parent while we process the rage, terror, loss, and grief of realizing our parent has always been the child. If you know what I mean.


{{{ P }}}
bunny

[P]

Thank you Mud and Bunny, I'm glad I posted that (thanks GFN for the prompt). What you say, both of you, sounds wise to me. I need to consider your words because I want to ask questions, I think. I keep being shocked at how real this is. I didn't know any of this before I came here, bunny you know that. I haven't seen her face to face since I came here. It is a shock. And it hurts, the grief hurts. The rage is a lot less, honestly bunny, it is. It comes and goes so quickly. I was wondering about therapy. I want to get on with my life. I need to work soon. But I am afraid of people. I just find it shocking how unreal it's been. It looks like NPD to me, in her? Does that matter, a diagnosis? Yes because then I'll accept that those neural connections aren't there and can't ever function. I can accept that and that would make it easier for me. I do accept that, sort of. But it's still shocking. Thanks again, I'm away for today, you've both helped. And I know I need it, help, that's progress. Portia

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia,

My feeling is that she may have more than one disorder. She sounds narcissistic and borderline. There may be other problems. A therapist could give more of an educated guess about it.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Dear ((((((Portia))))):  Sorry I've been away today until now.

Did you feel like you dropped a bomb after writing all of that?  I feel like that after letting some of it out here.  At first, it feels really weird but later, it feels like it helps.  LIke there's slop in the pot.  I hope it helps you too.  To be heard.  I hear your pain P.

Bought HGH so that might account for it?

I'm sorry I don't know what this is.  Does her being fat embarass you?  Reminds me of the big huge giant massive 2 foot square mosquito in my dream (from the dream thread) eh?  She's blowing up.  She's on your back too (and you can't swat there very easily).   Where the heck's the fly swatter??

Depends on what I say. I could say: “I’d like you to acknowledge that my childhood was pretty grim. I’d like to see if you can remember any of my childhood.”

I’ll just get hurt.

So, you've answered your own question then?  No matter what you say....it won't compute and you'll only get more hurt.  Why do that to yourself?  

She told me around Christmas time that she can’t remember what I was like as a toddler.

Selective memory.  They only remember what they want to remember or they make it up to fit what they wanted it to be, or want it to be.  Tell me about it!!

I told her I’d sat and played with suicide when I was 14. She said “oh yes I’ve been there”. She literally doesn’t care and is not interested. She literally cannot empathise with anyone. I’ve watched, she sits and smiles and says nothing. And then talks about them behind their backs as if they’re dirt.

I'm sorry you felt so down and so alone that you played with this idea, P.
    At such a young age. How awful that must have been for you!  I'm so glad that you're still here.  I really am!!  I remember one of them called you "evil" sometimes.  Imagine the idocity of that?  Well....ofcourse you don't have to imagine that do you?

Reminds me of a "friend" who came to my house, sniffing for information, and when I wouldn't give it and mentioned how my mil would soon be coming over, asked:  "Oh...and How's mil?" and I said:  "She's doing ok.  She's suffering too and through her suffering she's doing her best to support me and comfort me.  What a sweet woman!" and my "friend" said: "Yes.  Imagine if we were to lose all of our support systems at once?" and I looked at her and gave her the "evil eye" and said: "I don't have to imagine it at all".

These people don't have a clue.  Their hearts are diseased.  The emotions that should be there.....aren't.  Or at the very least....they do not show or come out.  Not in the eyes.  Not in the words.  Not in the tone.  It's like they simply are....aliens.  From some other place that just does not allow them to feel properly and they cannot give what does not live in them.

I'm so sorry that she is like that P but she is.  She simply does not feel like a normal mother and cannot give what she doesn't have in her.

Then I asked, not believing her, “who said it?”. “Oh some idiot” she replied dismissively

Everyone are idiots but them.  They're so flippin' smart!  They can belittle so easily.  They can call names without a smidgen of remorse.  They are just so much better than everyone else.  They have no respect for the person, for people.  They only respect geniousness and want it so badly.  But they just can't get it because they aren't perfect (like they try to pretend to be).  They speak above everyone else.  Speak down to everyone else, like they're soooo important.  They are stupid, if you ask me.  They don't see how ridiculous they make themselves look by using such cruel words and by insulting on a whim, without care, without conscience, without awareness, shamelessly.  They are deeply terrified of looking stupid.  The rest of us can make mistakes and laugh at ourselves.  "Oh look!  I've locked myself out of the house, out of the car, with the car running and the dogs inside!  Poor dogs want to go for a ride and are looking at me like I'm an idiot!!  What an idiot thing I've done!!"  (I did this.....recently ).  I can laugh.  I can tell you about it and you can laugh.  And I can enjoy your laughing at my silliness.  I can enjoy laughing at my own idiocy.  They would die......inside......a little, if we knew of their silly mistakes.  They try so hard to hide what cannot be hidden.  They're dumber than they think, if you ask me.

I’m just sad. I’m hurt that she doesn’t know, doesn’t care.

I'm sorry for all of your hurt P.    It does hurt a lot to come to grips with this.  It is a loss that you must grieve, I guess.  I wish I could make it better.  You can't change her.  You know it.  As unfair and wrong and painful and downright pathetic as it is....there's nothing that can be done to put a feeling/feelings in her that she doesn't have.  The only thing I can tell you that might help is that it's not you.  It's not your fault.  It's not.  It's nothing to do with you.  It's all her.  She's messed up and f'd up and shuffled up....like the broken pieces of a porcelan doll.  You could have been a boy...you could have been twins....you could have been any mix of children and she would still be the same to/him/them.  It's not you.  It's not you she doesn't care about.  It's everyone.  She cares for no one and can love no one.  How very, very sad.  For you and for her.  I'm so sorry P.  I know it hurts in big, big ways.

So the only thing you can do to help you is to grieve it and then make a decision about your own attitude toward her.  If you decide that she's just an associate/aquaintance/distant distant distant relative....and expect very little from her.......you won't be disappointed.  If you keep wishing for her to express love and concern and interest and joy for your joys and sorrow for your sorrows etc.....it will just keep hurting when she doesn't express those things.   Not much of a choice eh?   I wish I could give you something better.

It all hurts. Does letting go mean it won’t hurt? How do you do that then?

It's not easy.  A little at a time.  There has to be a way to build a big, strong wall that she cannot penetrate.  You use your mind a lot so what if you try to build it brick by brick?  Or a nice stone wall (I love stone walls...they are like huge mosaics).  I know this sounds a bit too simple and it is simply put, but it's the only way I know of how to do it.  But it takes time and much persistence.  It is possible to use the energy....the anger.....the pain...the thinking time to build something that surrounds and protects you.  It has to be in place before opening an email or a card.  It's a big plan ahead sceme that is your secret for you only to help keep you safe.  My way of doing it is to pretend I'm the doctor or nurse....doing an assessment.  Hummmmmm.....that's interesting.  Oh really?  I see.  You really believe that?  Is that right?"   without letting any emotional stuff fog up the facts.  Maybe I'm weird?  Or maybe it might help you too to try something like that or something only you design?

We don’t have any relationship (do we?).

You do have a relationship.  But it's not normal.  You want to be her daughter but she doesn't know how to be a mother.  If she were dead, you'd have to live without her right?  And you would survive.  And you could survive with her alive by thinking of her as something else, maybe?

Shall I still send her birthday cards etc? If I stop, will she simply stop sending me anything?

I used to send cards to my brother and phone him, which was long distance and cost a fair bit.  Every single time, I'd cry afterwards.  I call to ask if he got my card and he'd make some nasty remark.  He was cruel and rude, every single time.  Finally, I said to myself:

"Self......why are you doing this?  You want your brother to be a brother but he's never going to be a brother so why are you giving him so many opportunities to be what he is.......just rotten and mean?"

And I stopped with the cards and the calls.  I feel better.  I have no relationship with my brother.  I will never have one.  I can't change that.  He is the way he is.  I am the way I am and trying only hurts.  So why put myself through that?  I've tried.  I'm wasting my effort.  I want to put my energy into things that work and help and are good and feel good and give me or other people benefit.  Not waste them on him and his nastiness.

Only you can decide which will hurt less.  Both things hurt.  For me, one hurts less.  Now I pray for him on his birthday and light a candle.  I send him my good thoughts and I don't hear his nasty replies.   Maybe I make him laugh?  Maybe it doesn't matter.   I feel better.   I'm sure he doesn't miss me.

Would it hurt my conscience more to hurt her, to hurt her, to hurt her.

Are you asking if it is wrong to cut all ties with someone that is persistently (maybe not frequently) causing you emotional turmoil?  Should you feel guilty for not wanting to hurt to your peak/limit?  Is it wrong to stop all sparse, meaningless, communication with her?

She's beating you up P.  With words and lack of feeling.  She's kicking you in the heart.  She battering your self....in tiny, subtle bits.  If you want to end your "relationship" with her......because you need to to save your own sanity....do you really think there is something terribly wrong with that?

If she was punching you and throwing you down stairs you wouldn't question ending it, would you?  Incidious abuse is still abuse.  It's just slower and harder to nail in place.  You're an adult now and you have take care of you.  You need not beat yourself up for wanting to do that.  It's a good thing.

I also feel sorry for her. I can’t seem to shake that, no matter what she does, no matter how shocked I am. Although she says she's happy.

You don't have to shake it do you?  It's ok to feel sorry for someone who is so sick/diseased/broken.  It's a good thing to do....feel sorry for those who are less fortunate than ourselves, isn't it?  (and she's less fortunate than you because she's disorded).  But that doesn't mean we stand and let them pound us to a pulp emotionally.  If she had H.I.V you would feel bad for her but you wouldn't share her syringes.  If she had flesh eating disease you wouldn't be touching her wounds but you'd still feel sorry for her.  Keep your sympathy, it's good.  But look after you.

Some part of me thinks she hates me and daren’t say it.

She doesn't hate you Portia she's sick.  Something is not right in her head.   She's very jealous though, is my best most strong bet!

Is it too much to expect? To expect to remember what your only child did at university?

It's too much to expect her to give you anything good.  She won't.  She is too jealous of you and of your not being deperate like her.  Selective memory again.  It protects her.  She probably would have loved to be in your shoes but she knows they would have never fit.  Still.....she longs for those shoes but won't even acknowledge that they exist.  Twisted.  Ill.  It's all you can expect.  I'm so sorry P.  

Was I ever allowed to have a relationship with step-dad so that his death just might have affected me (ha ha!), even if the relationship was based on fear and control? Nope.

Jealous.  Wouldn't dare share.  He might get close to you.  You might get close to him.  She couldn't stand the idea.

Well the emails have stopped again so that’s good. I don’t get upset if there’s nothing to get upset about.

Good.  I'm glad.  Maybe don't open the next one?  Or wait until that wall is a solid structure and plan a response like:  "Recieved email.  Too busy to respond".

anyone remember the old Sparks song?

I remember the band but can't think of song titles or albums.  That wasn't yesterday, you know!

And they laugh, a lot, clearly enjoying the joke. I don’t laugh. I’m embarrassed and I feel guilty and icky because she looks absolutely confused,

You don't have to attend these things if you don't want to.  There's no law that says you must continue to experience these types of scenes or that you must put yourself in these gatherings simply because you have some biological tie.  Anticipate and plan for this junk, if you do decide to go, and prepare something comforting for yourself......like staying on the other side of the room, talking to whoever you enjoy there,  or walking away announcing, in a sweet high pitch:  "I need the toiley now".  (or would that be more embarrassing???)

How can I rage, how can I use my voice, with someone who can’t process what I say? I mean that. It would be so unfair.

Believe me when I tell you that it will probably do more harm than good.

Sorry about your brain, P. It'll be ok. It's a good brain.
 
Thanks GFN but it feels pretty stupid most of the time (and then sometimes it thinks it knows the ‘truth’ and the truth is very dark).

You know that's not true (about your brain).  Stop beating yourself up for not understanding insanity.  It can't be done.  Not in this life.

Sending you light, P.  Lot's and lot's of clear, warm, crisp light.

It went loopy last night, I looked at the board and had a ‘reality check’ attack.

I don't know what brought that on but I hope the loops aren't too tight.  You can untie them by working at them bull-headedly, a little at a time.

(((((((Portia))))))

GFN

[chutzbagirl]

(((((Portia)))))

I'm sorry.     I know the unspeakable pain of being raised by a N Mother.  The shame of not being loved by the very person who gave you life.  I know.  I know the heartache of wanting to see love in your Mother's face only to find a twisted, confusing, painful and scary reflection.  The good news is that the reflection was never about you - it was only about her and her illness.  

Portia, you are a loving soul; if there was anything you could do to help your Mother I know you would do it.  The overwhelming grief rolls in when we realize there is nothing we can do and there is no hope for them in this life.  I'm sorry you are facing this grief.  Sometimes I can barely catch my breath.  But, for me, complete detatchment is necessary.  My M despises me too much for my heart to bear relationship.  I tried to be a good daughter - but I can't make her well.  I can't make her love me.  

I pray you find your answer.  I hope you have loving people in your life to support you.  Therapy has been critical for me.  I needed someone to continue reminding me that she is sick beyond repair and that I will survive and move on to a fulfilling life.  Sometimes I needed my T to remind me of that every week because I was so afraid I was being unloving and unforgiving.  Now I'm beginning to understand the absolute necessity of detatchment.  

I've always enjoyed your posts.  You have a big heart.  Be careful with your heart - it needs you care and protection.  

Chutzbagirl

[Portia]

Hello all. What would I like to tell you today? Well, it feels as though things keep turning full circle in my head. Cycles and recycles.

My grief is real and physical. All I need to do to find grief is to see that picture of her sitting offering that cigarette, and overlay your description Bunny of the very small child offering to share her toy. It’s heart-breaking. Does this happen to you – when you’ve cried, you cry and cry and you have to make yourself stop because you know you’ll be physically sick? And you know from past experience that if you are sick, it really hurts to have the acid and tears burn your throat, leaving you exhausted. “Stop it, you’ll make yourself sick”. I’m sure that’s what some people say to children. Maybe the children need to be sick? (What’s so wrong with physical emotion, especially in children? It makes adults afraid I guess, afraid of their own floodgates opening. Bring it on I say.)

The grief is mixed up, for her and for me, I do it for both of us. And her mother. “I think my mother may have been (sexually) abused by her father” she told me over the phone, emotionless, like a weather report. I remember her mother. Ah, GFN, you remember my dream about raging at her and slapping her face, and I knew the slapping was going too far, even in a dream? She told me a while ago that edit That obviously made a big impression on me. In my dream my mother was so passive as I slapped her, accepting it, and that’s how she would be. Isn’t that sad, all round. Heart-breaks. In my dream I knew it was wrong. Because it’s always wrong to hit children.

too much personal stuff so edit, edit.....

The books tell you to imagine you are in the first home you remember. Be yourself as a toddler. Look for your primary caregiver. See her clearly etc etc. I did this, I do these things periodically, testing myself.

She is simply not there. I’ve searched for her in those early years. I clearly remember my grandmother’s face, looking at me with concern, some affection and fear (I’d knocked myself out accidentally and she was holding me when I came round). Later, my grandfather valued my mind and was a good teacher. Gran played with me. edit

Bunny she’s 2 and a half and she can pinpoint when it happened. A terrible shaming and rejection by her mother. A very clear picture related to me. Not only was she shamed and rejected, but it was in favour of her baby (at the breast) brother. It’s not my business but it’s a sick family. And it’s not my family, it really isn’t. Maybe it’s my ghost family. Or something.

Where was my father? Poor Dad. He is a slightly older child. Spoiled and constrained. Maybe 6 or so, maybe a teenager. By comparison, not too difficult. His rage comes out, in words, banging doors. Simple stuff, easy to deal with.

I know she hates herself and can’t differentiate between herself and other people. It’s the murderous rage that worries me because it’s so deeply buried, it’s so suppressed: I have not seen her angry, at least not adult angry! How angry does a toddler get?

I’ve put down a few firm boundaries over the last few years. “You can’t have that because it will take this much planning and I can’t do it.” “No, I can’t do that. If you want that, you’ll have to do this.” When she’s frustrated in these things, she turns away, “oh well”. And it’s over.

But I worry. I worry every day. I worry that she’ll come a cropper. I worry that the rage damn will break. I worry that she’ll be murdered. I worry that she’ll be shamed to such an extent that she flips, crosses the line.

The circles and cycles

I’ve spent my life believing that she needs me. When I was able to reason I told her that “I’m going to look after you when I grow up”. (“Imagine a child saying that!” she tells me, smiling.)

I ‘got it’ that I can only change me: she’ll never change. I raged and wept a lot. (I blamed her.)

I worked on the idea that I need to protect myself against her. (She was the enemy still, she will consume me if I don’t take care.)

I know she doesn’t need me, that was hard to admit. No-one needs me, that’s hard to admit. (I need me.)

I don’t blame her and I don’t blame me. Or anyone.

She won’t consume me, she doesn’t know how (a child’s attempts are sadly pathetic). I don’t need to protect my self against her, I control what I think and feel (within limits), I need to protect myself against myself. “Take care of your self”.

I am the adult, finally. This hurts. The responsibility I took throughout my life comes back and looks me straight in the eyes and says: with this comes real responsibility, the kind you choose to take, not that which is imposed upon you. This one is a choice and that is a struggle.

You choose! Do you want a relationship with this person or not?

Answer: yes. I cannot be what I am not. I am the result of how I got here, I can’t deny my history. If I do deny my history, I shall repeat the same actions.

I can’t control anyone but myself, but I can control myself! Within limits, self-regulating ones I guess. Isn’t ‘potential’ a lovely word? And possibilities.

GFN, the dark place isn’t insanity, it’s the terrible hopelessness that seems to go on and on. When humans seem adept at cruelty and unused to kindness, that’s when it goes dark. When I read Dorothy Rowe and Margaret Atwood and Fay Weldon, is it just me? – I sense an underlying bitterness. That bitterness is the dark - denial of grief? Cynicism. Somewhere in me is a bright spot of optimism that won’t be buried for long. When pessimism takes over, I can wait it out. I guess I waited out my childhood weekdays with the optimism of the weekend and grandparents?  

I accept the responsibility that I choose to have a relationship with her. I choose to be the adult. I think that I can contribute to her feeling something good and if that’s so, I’d be cruel to withhold those things, having that knowledge. I get to feel ‘good about myself’ and I get to control myself, my reactions. I get to recognise when I’m losing it and can choose to withdraw. No-one is my enemy in this situation, only my own perceptions.

It doesn’t stop it being sad. Not when you can interpret this sentence from that email either as manipulative, inverse-arrogance or in many other negative ways, or you can see it as honesty coming from the mouth of a child: “Thing is sometimes it seems you've grown up and I haven't.”

Yes Chutzbagirl, it takes my breath away. Damn it! So much crying.

More follows, individual replies to you …

[Portia]

Good morning Mud, Bunny, GFN, Chutzbagirl. Thank you.

Mudpup, have I disconnected before? We were never ‘close’ but I felt responsible for her from very young. Step-dad was my adversary. I probably wanted to marry mom when I grew up. Not healthy. I left them at 16, (left her in my mind, he drove me out, to me). I went to live with my Dad (Bunny, imagine what she made of that!). But always I would go back to her “like lovers” I once said to a boyfriend. I knew then, but I didn’t know, and after he looked at me pretty horrified, I think I decided it was best to keep that one hidden. Ha! Imagine. <shakes head>

But she was never connected to me. She doesn’t even throw me scraps. She has no idea of what she does or doesn’t do and the impact it has on others.

I won’t rage at her. I won’t relate to her as an adult at all from this day on. I woke up today and the mother in my head is a tiny child. (I want to repeat that sentence across a whole page to communicate the impact of the image.) It makes everything very simple. For example, I don’t want to marry a tiny child.

Contact or no contact, it’s all pain, it’s the mother in my head, not the real one (is it ever the real one, or the one we choose to construct?).

I like my cousin, he seems okay and I don’t know if he’s delusional or wise either. He certainly knows how to take care of himself. I think his Dad (mother’s brother) takes it very hard. He’s a very sad man.

Thanks for your prayers (((Mud)))

[Portia]

Thank you Bunny,

I deal in images and your images cut through my thoughts like a hot knife through butter. No matter how many times I read “emotional child” it doesn’t work like a picture. Here’s your mother: look, see clearly. I appreciate your first paragraph. It matches what I ‘dare’ to think, what I can cope with. I don’t have reasonable conversations at all. I’m amazed that she still drives. I’m amazed she hasn’t been banned (she’s been stopped by the police a few times). But she still functions, she’s very resilient. She writes, attends women’s groups, finds friends to holiday with, has relationships of sorts etc.

Heck, I knew that about it being her fantasy to get back with my Dad, but to my mind, that was too crazy to voice. I forget that that is my perception, not hers (that the idea is too crazy is my perception…etc). My Dad has been married now for 24 years: that doesn’t affect her fantasy. I have other examples too, of this fantasy in her. (I told her Dad was on holiday somewhere, “who with?” she asked. Very sad on reflection. Very sad.) Thank you for saying it out loud bunny, it makes it all true.

As for what her problems are, they sure are many. I talk to two people about her, H when he doesn’t mind and tiny bits to my step-mother. (This is a trade-off, step-mother talks to me about Dad and she has to, I understand her situation too well and though it sounds dodgy in boundary senses, she’s pretty healthy.) <Shock, roll eyes, put that on hold.> Very recently I told step-mother “I think with just a nudge in one direction or another, she could well be {in need of in-patient care}.” Step-mother isn’t surprised by anything. I wondered about the accuracy of what I’d said afterwards, and decided it was accurate to me. It depends what I mean by “nudge”. I worry about her and the external real world. I wondered if her GP would talk to me. She’s been prescribed so many different things over the years, from the old valium type stuff to the new SSRIs. That practice must have a clue (I don’t expect much from doctors). If/when the need arises, I’ll find out I guess. It would be good to know now, both for me for myself, and for me for her in the future. I’d know what was likely/unlikely in terms of her behaviour. But that’s getting too close for me and it’s not necessary right now. As far as I know. But I’d like to be prepared. I have thought about this a lot, while I’ve been here. I can’t square it while she is still functioning, I can’t get involved. While she’s okay, it’s still only my stuff. My thinking is muddled here isn’t it? It seems so.

[Portia]

Hiya GFN, that was a marathon post, thank you! It wasn’t really a bomb from me, just a clarification of thoughts that are probably spread all over the board, in bits. HGH = human growth hormone, that must give you the nibbles eh? Does it embarrass me? Not really, I’m not her, I think it sickens me because it’s an outward sign of inner turmoil and that’s not pretty.

We all have selective memories don’t we? But I don’t think she’s lying, she doesn’t lie well at all. She doesn’t remember me – and she says that hurts her, she feels bereft! I’m sure she does feel that and that’s sad.

I worked out that suicide wasn’t the answer to anything. And I knew it would be painful too (I chose pills). I don’t like physical pain. I zoned out instead. There’s always an alternative if the brain can locate it. If the brain can’t locate it, the body will die.

They're dumber than they think

- isn’t this the truth! It’s a good job, a mercy, they don’t know. It’s better to think you’re dumber than you are I find.  

Thanks GFN, I know it’s not me. That hurts too of course! The arbitrary nature of birth, life and death. Sometimes that’s a good thing though.

I like stone walls too. It’s not my style though, mine is through understanding then feeling then understanding some more. I do have steel shutters though, in my head when it gets too much. Problem is, I relied on them too much to survive. Now to survive I have to feel and it’s working! Sadness is better than dissociating. It hurts, great!

I think it would be wrong to stop communication because it’s not meaningless to her. You’re right it is abuse but I’m the adult now. I can choose whether to take the abuse or not. And let’s face it her abuse is neglect, it’s not raging and being actively nasty. Her abuse is all by default. Step-dad did the dirty stuff. Does this sound like denial? I guess. But I don’t think it is. She’s potentially dangerous alright, no mistake. But she hardly contacts me and I honestly don’t think that it is intentional to ‘make me suffer’ – I think she's not aware that I exist in reality, without her. Seriously. If she *thinks* about me, she thinks that’s okay by me. I can understand that. Very young GFN, very.

Aye, she is jealous. And all the other stuff.

Sparks – This town ain’t big enough for the both of us (and it ain’t me who’s gonna leave!)

Family events: hey, it was the first one on 20-odd years, I didn’t know what to expect! I went to another one and that was it, I’ve stopped. No point.

About being loopy. I just have some trouble with patterns. Sometimes my expectations are so low that when people do stuff I don’t anticipate (that seems good to me) I simply don’t believe it. I think people behaving well is a conspiracy! Sort of. Put it this way, what is ‘normal’ often seems incredible to me and I have to adjust. It’s getting easier to recognise. Thanks GFN, sometimes you really hit the spot and you did this time.

[Portia]

Chutzbagirl, maybe our hearts get bigger the more they have to accommodate, that’s why people have heavy hearts? You have a big heart too, thank you for your words.

We can’t make them love us, but we can choose to love them in the only way they can perceive and receive love. (And I really mean that. Amazing. I can't believe myself sometimes, maybe I'm on a posting-induced high? )

Just got to find the way maybe. If that means doing it from a distance, then that’s the way. Tenacious is my middle name!

[chutzbagirl]

Portia,

You said your M doesn't lie very well.  That's good.  I guess N's, just like everyone else, come in different varieties and degrees of illness with  potential to abuse.  

This is where the whole detatchment thing gets sticky.  My M has malice and slanders me something terrible.  Therefore, any contact with her is damaging to me and potentially to my children.  However, if she was just pathetically sick and needy, I would probably be able to have limited contact.  

My M lies about most people, if not all, and has a special knack (sp?) for destroying relationships.  She must be the center at all times and therefore she slanders daughters to their fathers, sisters to their brothers, etc...She doesn't just slander my appearance or choice of clothes, she slanders who I am and what is most dear to me; my faith, parenting, character, marriage, etc...

I know the hurt child behavior N's tend to display.  I've seen my M look so young and fragile it can turn my stomach with sadness and disgust.  My M is incredibly dramatic and is constantly in physical pain of some type.  She's had too many surgeries to count.  That gets old quick.  I can not believe that she finds doctors who believe her.  They are either naive or unethical.

So, I think the bottom line is we need to assess the N's impact on our own sanity.  After all, we are responsible for our sanity.  If I continued to be in contact with my N relatives I would be victimizing myself because under the circumstances I am unable to remain sane.  

I wish you the best as you ponder your course.  All of our circumstances are unique.  I think it is extremely important to respect the decisions of others.  

Take care Portia.  

Chutzbagirl

[Anonymous]

Hi again Portia,

I'm surely glad you started this thread for yourself. I hope it is helping to, well, to put it politely, empty your tummy. And maybe your head too, a little?
You have some really complex emotions going on here. Way too complex for my pea sized brain to wrap around.
My advice usually consists of the old gag about the doctor and the patient.

Patient "Doctor it hurts when I do this"
Doctor "Well don't do that"

Helpful maybe for a broken pinky, but maybe not so much for a broken childhood?
But I do know it helps to throw it up and pick through what you find. It can be fairly disgusting but at least you find out what you were forced to swallow.

GFN,

You are so wise and we have so much in common. Well, not the wise part but other stuff. The brother you have lost. Jed Clampett, the McKenzie brothers and a whole bunch of other stuff, not least a love of bulldozers.
There is one other person here who I have so much in common with as well. I have a lot of sweet sisters here, but I feel like I might have grown up with you two.
Sorry for the loss of your brother.

(((((P))))) (((((GFN)))))

mudpuppy

[P]

(((Chutzbagirl))) this has been confusing me so much, how she's not so upfront and nasty with it. The vast majority are it seems, I'm in a minority, or it feels like it.

If I had your mother, I'd run for the hills and not look back. There appears to be nothing but cruelty and harm, absolutely no reason for you to relate at all. I can see that. I've seen it so much. Which is why I've been confused, mine doesn't fit that description and it's made it so difficult. Like fighting cotton wool, how do you get a hold on 'nothing'?

I had an N partner for a while, I know the mean spirits, the fantastically selfish manipulative little child looks (suddenly I'm not so forgiving eh ?). Stay away - and I know that partners aren't mothers: mothers cling on to our hearts.

We protect ourselves first, otherwise we're no use to anyone. Take care Chutzbagirl, I agree with you.