Hello Acappella

[Anonymous]

Hi Acappella,
First congrats on the name change. I had promised a post to a message a while ago about how incredibly sensitive you seem to be to what your role in the relationship is, and then I got caught up in living (new apartment - floor refinishing, painting, etc. What a metaphor for cleaning my emotional house! Guess who didn't have the energy to help, although I've paid his rent for most of this year!)

The crisis of the moment may be over (did you say he found out about this board? That would be a worst case situation for anyone - don't let guilt take up space in your mind - it's practically guaranteed that no matter what you've said to him that you say here, he wasn't listening in the sense of taking it to heart. We are!) And he should have a major problem with the fact you need to speak to unseens - because his number one priority should be how are you feeling and why do you feel this way,and what can he be doing differently? And he should be asking you, "what do you need and how can I help?" Isn't that how we talk to our selves and to our partners? That's the acid test we should give to any man (partner) who wants space in our lives. The i ching notes the difference between courtship and seduction: courtship is when he voluntarily makes your interests more important than his own. That's wisdom from 2000 years ago, works for me!

You've been thinking about leaving for a while, but "baby and the bath water." The question is, are you learning/growing from the angst, and he is not? Does he just blame you for all of his emotional discomfort, while you meanwhile ferret out all of your inner feelings and motives to figure out what your role was? That can only go on for so long. If so, admit that you've benefitted by "using" him to grow, but wasn't your intention to live life mutual? I think you were focused on love and the natural benefits of loving. It's not your fault if he doesn't ever look in the mirror, or believe in evolution!

And I know it may be hard for you sometimes to even to accept that you've started down this road. I don't know that once you've started that there are any real turnouts.  But remember too that you can love unconditionally without having to sacrifice your self. You can always love this person and still love yourself.

So here (finally!) is what I have to say:

- with this kind of person, don't go for a "mediated" agreement. I know from experience that he will go along with this because he hopes you're not serious, and then at the last minute he'll back out in favor of a prolonged contested divorce because you didn't waver during the mediation. From what I've seen you have a heart of chocolate and he's not ever going to find anyone more sympathetic or tolerant, and believe me, he knows it.

- what you will experience in terms of emotional freedom is well worth the financial considerations. You're going to be doing something simple like washing the dishes and look out the window and then just thank God you're alive and what a waste but hey! it's over. You're going to want to dance.

- since you do not have children together, the issue is division of assets and whether you have to pay alimony. which depends on  whether you have a history of supporting him, and for how long, and why.

-asset divisions are primarily determined by the state in which you live. Consult an attorney (you can do initial consultations for free and should probably talk to two or three attorneys) and find out how best to protect yourself. There are pretty standard rules. Remember that you can always do more than the minimum requirement, if you feel the need, but you don't want an unfair obligation. Virtually nothing you or he does now (dating etc.)  is going to make a difference in the divison of assets/liabilities, but the thing to watch out for is hiding of assets.

- dont' worry too much about the financial aspects. In today's world of credit scoring just about everything disappears in two years anyway. At the same time,  if this person is not likely to be able to support themselves in coming years, then you have to be very careful about the way the alimony agreement is worded. Otherwise, if he goes on state aid, at some point the state may come back and make you continue to support them.

For what it's worth. I'm not a big follower of tough love, had enough toughness in my life and so I like love today to be softer. But we don't always get what we want. (Then again, it may take some of us a while to know what it is we want. Better late than never!)

[Ella]

oops, previous post was from me

[Guest]

Hi Ella,

thank you.  I really appreciate your supportiveness.  I have been struggling the last couple of weeks and am very tired.  I will no doubt be reading your post again and again for encouragement as you gave a lot of helpful input.  Thanks.

Right now my "heart of chocolate" feels like coal.  
So in another thousand years and some more pressure and it will become a diamond?  NOT a girls best friend.  I'd take chocolate over old rocks any day.  

Arrg.

[CC]

Hi Accapella,

Just wanted you to know I was thinking about you today.   I am saddened that your safe place (here) has been invaded by the N in your life.  I hope you are taking steps to take care of yourself emotionally and financially.  I imagine the holidays will be difficult for you as they are for most of us.

I think Ella has offered you some good, experienced advice.  May your new year be happier.

Blessings, CC

[Acappella]

Hi CC,

i appreciate your thinking of me.  thanks for caring.  I still am feeling some safety here.  I can still keep in touch by reading posts and when I have energy I'll post again myself.  I don't have to be directly involved to get a good feeling from what transpires here - for example, the protective boundaries you are setting up with you your mom, your sensitivity to how you do so and the excellent support I see being sent your way in that thread.

My husband said he though my name was Echo AND I know darned well he would intentionally say that just to fool me into believing he didn't know I'd changed my name so that I'd post openly again.  In fact at the time he announced he'd been reading my posts I think I'd already changed my name.  See...I'm no echo no more as I know that much now about him now.  If I can figure out a way to test whether he knows who I am posting as I may be able to post as myself again.  

It is too bad as I really am in to openess and wanted for years for us to be frank with one another.  I was with him.  Occassionally he was with me too.  However, random, inconsistent acts of potential disclosure does not a healthy team make.  He even enjoys confusing and taunting our dogs.  It is "harmless" stuff like saying a word that sounds like a word they understand and then intentionally not giving them the response they expect.  I don't like though as my dog is great at telling me what she wants...water, food, to play, to get on the couch, to go for a walk.  She'll whine.  Then I just say "what?" and she'll go to what she wants - water bowl, or food bowl or her leash, the door or do an invitation to play dance.  Sometimes I will say no to her and i do only after acknowledging what she wanted and I tell her good dog and not right now.  Everyone who interacts with her notices how happy and well behaved she is and playfull too.   I had to learn that sort of communication and it makes life easier on her and I.  Dogs try so damned hard to understand that I find it mean of him to trick them in that way.  For him it is about control not about mutual respect - even with the dogs.  It isn't his only approach yet it is distastefull to me anyway.  I ask him not to do that with my dog and when he does it with his dog it is an excellent reminder to me of what he does with me also and why I cannot stay with him.  I've stopped trying like dog to understand his word salad.  

That is a step towards financial independence - though far from a paycheck producing step. I am taking other more direct steps too.

[Anonymous]

Hi Ella,

I got caught up in living

- excellent!

Yes he found out about this board.  (In fact I meant to post as guess in my last post..arrg)  He was punishing me in his stealth like fashion without telling me what he was angry or hurt by.  Then he blurted it out.."your leaving anyway..i read your posts on that forum!"  
Classic -
1)  he feels hurt and only expresses anger.  And it isn't like he came around an hour or two later or a day later and acknowledged he was feeling vulnerable and hurt.  Even when he has uttered a tiny little sentence or two about feeling hurt he stops there and doesn't move on to include any understanding of me.  There is no AND .... His hurt is the begining, middle and end of everything.

2)  he justifies punishing me because he is angry (hurt way down deep somewhere I suppose).  If he is hurt or angry then punishing others is perfectly acceptable behavior. How about communication and negotiation?  That is effort and he is entitled to not having to exert emotional effort. Oh and because the world revolves around him he is entitled to expect others to read his mind and to be needless in the face of his desries.  Arrg.

3)  takes zero responsibility shows zero curiosity or concern for my feeling I need to leave - he doesn't own up to not going to a support group or reading self help books and doing the work in them or the behavior that warrants the work he claimed he believed he need to do.  He said something once about realizing he hadn't found a group or therapist (once he said that IN 6 MONTHS!).  He will now say occassionally that he already acknowledged not doing it.  It is nearly laughable that he feels no compunction to then ackowledge he STILL hasn't and what he is feeling or whatever.   When I asked him (without malace) why he finds time to read newsweek and the paper yet doesn’t follow through on getting therapy or even reading a self help book and actually doing the exercises in it he says “I don’t know. Why does anyone do what they do?”  

4)  addresses no issues regarding why I feel I need to leave - what my struggle is.  He gives zero acknowledgement of my efforts.  

5)  shows ZERO empathy even though he gives his reason for reading the posts (only when asked of course) as being because I was acting "strange" meaning I wasn't communicating as much  ...he just doesn't seem to get that he is complaining about the very thing I have said I was hurt by for three years.  Moreover, he didn’t ask that I communicate.  Oh, forgot I am supposed to dish it up on a silver platter while he pretends he doesn’t really want it.  Gag!!!!!!!!  From him there is no "I am hurt AND now I can understand more what you have been saying you've felt when I don’t communicate."  Did I say "no" as in none?  Oh, excuse me he may have said something that hinted at empathy a time or two in the last three years so what am I complaining about?

6)  behaves as though he is the one and only hurt party in this situation (which I understand his doing so for a while and yet it is his on going attitude 24/7. Oh, except when he is in total denial that there is anything wrong with our "relationship".)

Ok, well I clearly needed to get that out and in writing.  This is the sort of thing I wouldn't get clear about after an argument with him and then later I wouldn't be clear about what happened and it was so easy to slip back into oblivion.  NO MORE.

[Anonymous]

I am trying not to feel guilty.  Actually I barely feel guilt about him anymore.  As I write this I wonder if some of my "guilt" feelings weren't just a contorted desire to find a way to stay connected some how to him.   Another thing about guilt that he doesn't get is that guilt can be power... meaning if I am guilty I have a chance of then taking responsibility, making a change that effects things and so it is a type of potential latent power.  Anyway, he isn't happy in this relationship and enabling him is not supporting him.  I supported him and he pushes it away.  He acts as though he wants to be the emperor without clothes and me to be the applauding surf.  

We are!

   Thank you.
   

And he should have a major problem with the fact you need to speak to unseens - because his number one priority should be how are you feeling and why do you feel this way,and what can he be doing differently?

   And instead, THAT IS my attitude toward him  I can't imagine someone treating me that way though intellectually I see the sense in it.  WEIRD!

And he should be asking you, "what do you need and how can I help?" Isn't that how we talk to our selves and to our partners?

YES!!!!!!!! THANK YOU FOR REMINDING ME.  It is as if kindness is that proverbial tree falling in a forest where I am not present to hear it.  I feel good being reminded that it is there though I can't hear it yet someone else can.  

That's the acid test we should give to any man (partner) who wants space in our lives.

YES.  I just saw the movie “Somethings got to Give” and while it is still sexist and I believe Diane Keaton picks the wrong guy and I could go on about the short comings in the film it is my current favorite because, it shows more than other films I've seen an example of a woman being treated two different ways and at least for a while choosing the better option.  (sadly by default still)  Moreover, it shows a man doing some facing up to his actual self vs. his imagined self.  It is all still quite shallow and yet cathartic for me anyway.  

The i ching notes the difference between courtship and seduction: courtship is when he voluntarily makes your interests more important than his own. That's wisdom from 2000 years ago, works for me!

Excellent distinction.  I am going to keep that in mind when I date again.  I would love to see that in a movie - some multimedia, on the big screen, in my face where I can rewind and replay over and over and right over my childhood tapes.   Any cinema therapy recommendations?

You've been thinking about leaving for a while, but "baby and the bath water." The question is, are you learning/growing from the angst, and he is not?

 YES. and if he is growing it is too slow for me to tolerate.  I mean it may be perfectly fast for him yet FOR ME even one more day of punishment, neglect and non symbiotic dependency from him is too too much.

Does he just blame you for all of his emotional discomfort, while you meanwhile ferret out all of your inner feelings and motives to figure out what your role was?

 Ah, how'd ya know...the latter ..that would be me alright.  Though I am now gravitating towards not caring who is at fault and even if I am the cause of his angst or a contributor to it he doesn't behave in a way that is conducive to my learning, changing and growing.  I will always have more to learn in life and I need a partner who is a teacher and a student.  If our relationship was grade school my husbands teaching could be described as noticing a child misspells a word, taking it personally, not telling the child, not considering the child's point of view, then punishing the child via isolation.  If the child mentions feeling punished then punish the child more.  FROM NOW ON any guy who wants to be with me has to be able to deal with his discontent, express sadness (and happiness) and if he is unhappy he damned well better articulate it and negotiate change and do so while also maintaining respect and kindness towards me or move right along.  Wait he wont have to move…I will be the one movin along.  I won’t have even paused long enough to miss a step.

"

That can only go on for so long

."  Yup, the last woman he spent lots of time with told him she felt used.  I am exhausted.  His mom is leaving the country....

If so, admit that you've benefitted by "using" him to grow, but wasn't your intention to live life mutual?

Mutuality wasn't only my intent it was how I behaved and what I invested in.  

I think you were focused on love and the natural benefits of loving. It's not your fault if he doesn't ever look in the mirror, or believe in evolution!

    Yeah and the punch line is evolution just keeps on happening  whether one believes in it or not!  

You can always love this person and still love yourself.

Yeah, I am not into tough love either AND staying with him is tough on us both.  If I am the one more motivated to do something about it well then I couldn't be any kinder, any more loving toward he or myself than to get us separated asap.   He is a glutton for punishment himself which is why he dishes it out so liberally.  I mean who would want to live with someone who was miserable and miserable with their behavior?  Ah well I have …but I mean indefinitely.

- with this kind of person, don't go for a "mediated" agreement. I know from experience that he will go along with this because he hopes you're not serious,

Yeah, for all his neglect and punishment it amazes me that he holds out hope and does so with so little investment of work with which to realize the hope he supposedly has but that is only expressed vaguely, indirectly and in anger.  

and then at the last minute he'll back out in favor of a prolonged contested divorce because you didn't waver during the mediation.

 And he has the lawyer sister to assist him.  As we speak she is making arrangements for his traveling to see her for christmas. - Arrangements he put no effort into.  He commented that she has gotten fat.  No kindness in his statement, no concern for her health.  It was more as if he were embarrassed.  And he doesn't get she is taking care of everyone but herself. HELLO!  

From what I've seen you have a heart of chocolate and he's not ever going to find anyone more sympathetic or tolerant, and believe me, he knows it.

 He has enjoyed my isolation, lack of family, insecurity etc.  He has pretended I was the only one depending (trying to anyway) on anyone in this relationship.  I DO BELIEVE YOU. HE DOES KNOW IT.  He does know he needs me and he doesn't have the courage to own up to that.    I am rich, sweet yummy chocolate and I am going to market with my valuable self!

- what you will experience in terms of emotional freedom is well worth the financial considerations. You're going to be doing something simple like washing the dishes and look out the window and then just thank God you're alive and what a waste but hey! it's over. You're going to want to dance.

 THANK YOU.  I am posting this on the wall near my bed so that I see it every morning and night before I go to sleep.   Sting has a great song called "Never Coming Home" sort of about that.  About the process of leaving anyway and freedom.

Consult an attorney (you can do initial consultations for free and should probably talk to two or three attorneys) and find out how best to protect yourself. There are pretty standard rules. Remember that you can always do more than the minimum requirement, if you feel the need, but you don't want an unfair obligation. Virtually nothing you or he does now (dating etc.) is going to make a difference in the divison of assets/liabilities, but the thing to watch out for is hiding of assets.

Great advice…THANK YOU.

- dont' worry too much about the financial aspects. In today's world of credit scoring just about everything disappears in two years anyway.  

REALLY?  I had no idea about that.  He really messed up my credit.  On the bright side...I learned at a deeper level to care more about quality of life than my credit rating.  Next stop?  Both a good credit rating and excellent quality of life emotionally!

For what it's worth. I'm not a big follower of tough love, had enough toughness in my life and so I like love today to be softer.

Me too.

(Then again, it may take some of us a while to know what it is we want. Better late than never!)  Yes.  And better late than later!