Meeting with my parents and T- update .

[David P]

Hi all, well it was not good. In fact it was as bad as I expected ,maybe worse.

I met my folks in the T's waiting room.My Dad looked like he was about to tear off all the Reader's Digest covers. He was so tense and wound up. We made meaningless smalltalk and Mom looked totally spooked by being there.
My T came out of her office and ushered us in. I had all my notes in a folder and slapped the folder down on her desk in front of parents. About a month ago, my Dad was asked by both my T and me to get a copy of Toxic Parents. As we proceeded to get the meeting underway he made some comment about the local library not having a copy,and then a wisecrack ,"and they also did not have a copy of the sequel,'Toxic Children'."  That kind of summed up his mood. Nice ! NOT!  I knew that I was in for a tough time.

He had been browbeating my T by phone for a few weeks trying to grind her down. She fended him off as best she could but this guy is relentless ( how like an N).
During many early sessions with my T, I had discussed the events of my childhood and we agreed that I had been raised with abusers for parents and that my Father was the active aggressor and Mom was a passive aggressor. I was OK with those descriptions.
As the meeting started to warm up I pulled my notes and started to read about my recollections of events from as far back as I could remember.
I used the word 'abuse' to describe some of their behavior toward me when I was about nine years old. MY T stopped me , looked at my parents and said," Perceived abuse."
I said to my T," We never used that phrase, you and I called it ABUSE."
She retreated into some psychobabble about there being no real truths and that life was all just personal interpretations and perceptions,blah,blah.
My Father jumped up and looked like he had just won the Lottery and said," So this is all just about how David views things?" More psychobabble from T who was retreating fast. My Parents smelled a bloody victory and stared ranting about how THEY had been manipulated and this was all about how my brain had been damaged from too much booze and so on. My T was beaten and continued to babble on about how the long term objective was to 'bring us all together with love and healing'. More sentimental slop!! She just fell apart .

She did not understand that by saying that it was 'perceived abuse', she played right into their hands .They had always regarded my feelings,thoughts,wishes hopes and dreams ( and perceptions ) as utterly worthless,so when she talked about 'perceived abuse' she in fact had reduced the felony charge to a minor misdemeanor.

I did the best I could after that and tried to maintain the rage, but I did so feeling that my T had betrayed me. I am not sure why she did what she did. She and I had a few angry words after my parents had left,but she just rushed off to another office across the hall making  some excuse as she walked away.

What do I do now? Fire her ass or get another T and start over, or forget the whole deal.??
Any comments?

One exhausted David.

[TamaraJ]

I would surely get another therapist, but more importantly..you need to understand that confrontation with Nparents will NEVER amount to any good for you.  Standing up for yourself is one thing..that I am all in favor of. In time they will see you as someone they can't mess with anymore and you will become "boring" to them. You're not giving them their supply anymore so they'll be on to bigger and better things to get it. That's your ticket out. I understand your personal need to lay all of this out in front of them..I think we all go through this and it's part of the healing process. But if you're waiting for them to have some revelation and take any personal responsibility for anything..you'll be waiting until Hell freezes over. It will never happen. The most you may get is "we did the best we could" which is just an attempt at them to get you to accept that they did the least that they could get by with.

My advice..distance yourself from these people NOW. Get on with your own life and start healing your soul.

[onlyrenting]

David, Im so sorry about your T

So this is all just about how David views things?"

Im not an expert on T stuff, but if your father is an N, they most likely he will never admit it's any of his problem. Only months and hours and hours of T for them before they begin to see the light.

I would try and work alone with the T. Maybe your mom and you could work it out.
N's will twist everything around to make you feel just like he did.
Your view is important, why you did drugs may have been because of the pain from him.
Not knowing how to deal with an N as a child is understandable. Look at your T, she ran too!

Your father may need to sit in the corner and watch how you can grow without his twisted input.
It's sad but we here have seen the devistation they will cause. Learn how to grow in strength about who you are and your VIEW of life. Don't get wrapped up in seeking their approval for now, until you approve of who you are. I think it's a waste of time to get your father to understand you, he will not see it your way.

It's like a kid in school that is a smart ass! he knows it all. The teacher tries to explain the rules and he just keeps telling her how she is the stupid one.  How he will ever learn is beyond anyone.
Do you keep trying or let him learn the hard way. He does not want to change, he already knows it all.

good luck ...................OR
 

[mum]

 

In fact it was as bad as I expected ,maybe worse.

David. I am sorry you are still in this muck.  Have you ever heard the expression: you get what you expect? I think it applies well here. It sounds like you are mired in the negative energy of your N parents (father in particular). He is still in control of you, your thoughts, your reactions. Until you "leave the ring" entirely (boxing metaphor) to let him "swing at air" or another "opponent", things will not change. I'm sorry.

The therapist was doing what any "negotiator" will do: if she wanted your parents to be "open" to what you had to say, do you think "I think you are just as screwed up as David does" would have helped? Calling it "percieved" was her attempt at keeping them receptive to seeing that what they saw as acceptable parenting, was percieved by YOU to be abuse. I don't think she was undermining you, rather attempting to make a certain train wreck, stay on track a bit.
Frankly, I am surprised she agreed to any of this, as if she knew anything about abusers/controllers, she wouldn't have let you bother...but maybe you are persuasive.
Anyway, can you see how the negativity just grew and grew? Until you learn to DROP this as your focus....you will see your life as this negative runaway train. Only you can save yourself, not your therapist, not your parents suddenly realizing how screwed up they are, etc. (and that's unlikely).

When we focus on what we DON'T want in life....we get more of the same. It's the way, I believe, energy works.
When I find myself focusing on my ex, what he is thinking of doing next "to me" in court, what his strategies might be....it's ok for a second or two, for I need to plan, but quickly it can turn into nothing but negativity and I have given him control over my thoughts. (always a choice...whether you are consious of it or not).
I realize that I can stop the downward spiral of my own precious thoughts...and "leave the ring" emotionally. It's all about finding what you want for my  life and making that my focus.
 I will echo what others have said before: wanting to right an injustice (believe me, I know about THAT one!) or to show these screwed up people the error of their ways is FUTILE!!! Got that? FUTILE. 

If you see it as "then they have won..." well, heck, that's a mind game you can play in your head or not... (I'd choose not).
If you see it as "there is no hope for them, I cannot save them, God bless them but I have to LIVE my OWN life..." then YOU have won! Won what? Your life back! Your power back!
 
Another expression for you to mull over: "Attachment equals suffering".
What are you attached to that is causing you suffering? In my life, it is that I am attached to something I cannot control, but am emotionally attached to having that control anyway.  A certain recipe for pain.  Let it go, David. Let your parents go. (and that will hurt).  Pain is there for us to learn lessons in life.
Learn it and you will be free. This doesn't mean you won't feel pain again, it's just you will know what to do with it...which is to let it go, again and again, and refocus on what you DO want out of life.  You get to choose.

Bless you, David. The best lessons in life are the hard ones.

[mum]

It's all about finding what you want for my  life and making that my focus.

OOOPS. What a lousy editor I would be (am)! Of course, I meant to make this entire sentence first person (noone else needs to figure out what I want...... )

[Marta]

Hi David,

I am so angry with your therapist that I don’t have words to express it. She has betrayed you all right. “Perceived abuse,” huh? Might as well have said alleged abuse. Even in a court, it is only opposition lawyer who uses words like alleged, not your own.

I don’t think that the confrontation was doomed from the beginning, if you’d had a competent and experienced therapist. It seems to me that your purpose was not to change them, but simply to say to them with the support of your own therapist that what they did was wrong. I can relate to that.

Although most of us had scented something quite wrong with T from the beginning, I am really astounded by the level of her betrayal. First she incites you to have this confrontation, then she does not make her own role in it clear to you, then she makes you doubt yourself and pulls a crazymaking number in presence of your father by calling it perceived abuse, then she talks about happy reunions. I also suspect that you and T were working at cross purposes. She probably fancied herself as the mediator, and may be you expected her to be your defense lawyer. It is inexcusable that she did not spare any time for you afterwards. I am sorry to break it to you, but you have been taken for a ride by her! She probably has unresolved issues with her own parents, and instead of confronting them herself may be she gets off on getting her gullible clients to confront.

David, please dump this therapist. Take it from a therapy abuse survivor that you’ve been abused. Go to her, express all the anger you feel about the situation, and then walk out. At best she is incompetent and immature, at worst she's abusive. I’d advice you now to focus on healing with another therapist, hopefully experienced in N abuse and AA issues.

Marta

[October]

David

I am really sorry about what happened.  I can absolutely understand the difference between talking about 'abuse' and 'alleged abuse'.  I have discussed this with several therapists, telling each one that it is important to me that they understand that what I say is true.  Each one has told me that it does not matter to them whether it is true or not, because as far as they are concerned they are dealing with my perceptions.

I said to one psychologist, do you believe me?  He said, I have no doubt that your perceptions of your parents behaviour are real.  I asked him what on earth that is supposed to mean, and where on earth can you go in therapy with that approach?  In fact we went very little further.  Communication broke down completely at the point where my 'reality' was his 'perceived reality'.

Therapists might be happy with perceptions, but I have to know that what I say is true, because I have been fed so many lies, so many distortions, over so many years, firstly by my parents and relatives, then by my then husband and his family, that if ever I know I have lost my grip on what is real and what is not, I will lose my sanity.  It is that important.  If my memories are not accurate (within accepted parameters for normal memory distortion), and do not reflect in some meaningful way not only what I think happened, but actually, what did happen, then I might as well give up.  What else do we have?

At some point, when I was small, I learned to think for myself 'this is not true', and to believe that, in the face of a whole world saying the opposite.  A therapist would need to be alongside me in understanding that, before he would get anywhere in helping me.  To call this a perception is to join with the perpetrators in laughing at my lone voice, and ridiculing my efforts to be who I am.

I have to say, I have yet to find a therapist who can understand this.  Plenty to talk about perceptions, none who are willing to get to grips with true v false.

I am very sorry for what has happened.

[David P]

Hi all, thanks for your comments. I have written out my thoughts ( and my anger) to my T.
On the issue of 'abuse truth' Vs ' abuse perceptions'  - I agree with Mata and October. Abuse is abuse in reality ,otherwise why define it in the literature.
The 'relativism' which is popular in academia and the meanderings of eastern religions about, "there being no truth, only interpretations" is such a limp and mindless approach.
Somewhere in 'John' we have Jesus saying,"And the truth will set you free'. If there is NO truth, then what is Jesus talking about. Of course there is truth and fact and reality. To claim otherwise is to reduce the world to a mishmash of personal conclusions, perceptions and emotional observations.
Winston Churchill said it best ," The truth is INCONTROVERTABLE. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is ." Smart guy!

I want to say to those of you who miss the point of what I am doing .I do NOT want or expect my parents to be understanding or to" change" . I have said this several times. A confrontation is about 'unloading' or'venting'. Some of you still reply asif I am expecting subsequent changes in their behavior toward me. Maybe I do but only in thie way that they will stop attacking me in the devious cunning sneering way that I grew up with. Maybe this process will make them worse. However I am NOT frightened of them any more,and THAT feeling alone is worth all the drama that is swirling around me. I cannot see how licking my wounds in private therapy for a few years is courageous and self enhancing. It is just more victim behavior to me.

See you all soon..David.

[amethyst]

Oh, David, I am so sorry. Fire your T. She absolutely betrayed you and set you up for it. I would be so angry with her.

Best thing you can do with the parents is detach....totally. Your dad is never going to get it. Mom eventually might, but she has never protected you from the abuser, so it the relationship worth it?

Alleged and perceived have no place in therapy.....abuse is abuse.

A very angry on your behalf,

Amethyst

[Stormchild]

David, your therapist absolutely utterly betrayed you. Worse even than that, she deliberately set you up. If she knew she didn't have the guts to go through with this - and she damn well should have known, she's a therapist, knowing things like that is what she is paid for - she should have called it off. But to sucker you into putting your stuff out there, and then fall all over herself placating your abusers by JOINING THEM!

I am furious for your sake, and am thinking very violent things, which I will keep to myself because they won't do anyone the least bit of good.

Now for a bit of advice: Dump her, at Warp speed.

And before committing to your next T, tell each candidate in no uncertain terms that you were abused by your prior T and want to be damn certain that (a) this will not be repeated and (b) you will instead be helped to deal with it.

Longtire had a relevant experience recently - hopefully he'll see this thread and chime in about how he changed Ts.

Please also see an elder law expert and check to see if your state has a 'destitute parent' law. If it does, your parents have a legal way to abuse you financially at some future time, and you may want to take steps to prevent that.

[mudpuppy]

Hi David,

I wonder if putting your thoughts and complaints about your parent's abuse in the form of a letter or a series of letters to them might more effectively achieve your ends. You would eliminate any unreliable middlemen such as your T and you wouldn't have to listen to your parents pathetic rationalizations and projections. You can be assured they, especially your father, will read every last word you write, so you need have no fear of your words being tossed away unread. Ns can't resist hearing anything, no matter how negative it is, about themselves.
If your goal is to get on record and in their face what they did, then the written word can be perfect.
If your goal is to somehow dominate them or shut them up I think you'll have a long sad time of it. I believe face to face confrontatons with Ns are hopeless for relatively normal people precisely because we are relatively normal and they aren't. For me that type of confrontation never satisfies because they always redirect the thrust of the conversation away from their own guilt. They have spent a lifetime practicing redirecting blame. They're like master matadors sidestepping the consequences and recriminations of their own misbehavior and we usually end up like big dumb bulls with a sword through our heart.
They will almost undoubtedly attack you more not less. The only hope of shutting an N up is to so threaten his facade of competence and superiority that he has to retreat. It is very difficult to get to that position; they are master manipulators and slanderers. If you ever did get to the point where you were able to go toe to toe with them as long as they can and in the same way as them, I'm afraid you may have become more like them than you would like.

Jesus said something else one time. 'What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.' Just make sure you don't lose your own soul trying to hook the b*****ds with your horn of justice. They never tire of slipping the sword in when you're off balance. It seems to be their only pleasure in life actually.

mudpup

[longtire]

David, I'm sorry to hear that you had such a miserable and disappointing experience with this.  I get the strong feeling that your T may have theraputical "experience" with NPD and abuse.  Which is to say, no personal experience at all.  I don't get the feeling from your posts that your T is unhelpful or incompetant.  I do get the sense that they may not be able to understand or "get" this enough to help you in this situation.  If you do decide to change T's, I would recommend that you talk to your T and tell them how hurt, disappointed, angry, etc. you feel before you switch, even if it is only over the phone.  That is the one thing I would do differently in changing T's next time.  You have every right to be heard one last time.  Your T might even try to explain away the behavior or go into the "how do you feel about that? line.  Don't buy the "I'm an expert" or "I was doing this technique," etc. excuses unless they actually ring true for YOU.  It is clear from your posts that you know what you want in this area.  You deserve better.  Personally, the only way I would keep this T is if they acknowledged their mistakes and apologized profuesly for the hurt they caused.

Trust your perceptions, then and now.  What did you hear?  What did you see?  What did you feel with you body?  These things are true.  Live you life accordingly.  So easy to say, but tough to do.

[Will]

David,

   I pretty much agree with what everyone wrote. They DID abuse you, as my parents abused me. Plain and simple. When I read your post, the first thing that tipped me off was your T telling you and your parents BOTH to get "Toxic Parents".  WTF? Why on earth would your therapist want your parents to read that? So they can resolve their issues with your grandparents? If this was a battle, she just gave the plans for attack to the enemy.
Really dumb move.

You don't need warm and fuzzy; you needed some righteous affirmation that the evil things done to you were wrong and that they did them and that should apologize at the very least.  I would find another therapist. I would also write one final goodbye letter to your parents, telling them what they did, how it hurt you and until they get it, you will not communicate with them anymore.

I did this with my dad. i can start to think clearly, and my soul is starting to feel like it's mine again.  David, you don't need them anymore.

[miss piggy]

Hi David,

I agree with everyone: your T blew it.  Dump her.  I'll bet this is the first time she has conducted a confrontation...even if she is a "good" T, she absolutely annihilated any comfortable feeling I would have with her.   I would not feel she took me seriously if she said "alleged" abuse.  Why would you make it up?  How did she experience your dad?  Why did she even say that?

The scene reminded me of the first anecdote Scott Peck writes about in "People of the Lie" where the parents are simply going through the motions in order to look like concerned parents of a troubled boy.  Then when SP tells the parents his conclusions, the dad, a lawyer, jumps on the fact that this is just SP's opinion of what's going on, and opinions are not facts are they, doctor? and the runaway train gains speed and the kid is toast.  (Exception being that SP was taking the kid's best interests and advocating for him.  Ahem.)

I must follow up on what October said about truth.  I just went up against a bully at school who has been antagonizing one of my kids for, like, ever.  I caught the bully in the act and jumped on it.  Bully's mom calls me to "get my side of the story".    I let her have it.  I totally did not care if she believed me or not.  After years of enduring crazymaking behavior, I knew that to get caught up in he said/she said is a total waste of time.  I just said, the bully knows I got his number.  He knows and I know what really went down.  I don't care if you believe your child or me (I said to the mother).  Go ahead and take him out for ice cream.  But he knows that I know the truth.  So back off.

Your T is an idiot and I'm glad that your dad put her through the grinder to be quite a stinker about it.  She naively thought she could handle him.  Wrong.  I am glad that your dad's "power" is shrinking in your eyes.  You're not the punching bag anymore.

peace!  MP

[Plucky]

Hi David,
While I'm not the right person to evaluate a T, having had few experiences with one, I must say that I was apalled by your t's lack of integrity.
For me, once trust is gone, I have a hard time opening up again. 
She ought to apologise profusely, but even if she does, you can still fire her.   You don't owe her anything.   

Also, why did your T allow your dad to continually beat up on her all week and wear her down?  Is she very young?   Why would she start to see things from his perspective?   Stockholm Syndrome?   Is she very weak?  Why would she set that whole thing up?  Isn't she YOUR therapist?   I have never heard of a T having multiple conversations with an abuser.  For what?  To get the 'truth'?  From an abuser?  What is up with that?  And you're paying her?

What I did not get from your post was, how do you feel?   On the whole was it useful or harmful?   What do you want to do now?
I did get that you wanted to confront in order to come from a position of power and fight back those whose foot was on your neck for so long.   I cannot totally disagree with that.  But in the long run, face it.  You might never get the satisfaction you want and need from them.  And you could get stuck seeking it.   Like everyone else, I say, the worst thing you can do to an N is to walk away and not look back. 

If you actually succeeded in making the confrontation a thing of horror for them, they would be glad to see you go.  But if you fade away when they still have little idea you are on to their lies, they are perplexed and they want the old you back - the you that has died forever, reborn as a person with the self esteem to never need or want them again.   If you want to strike back, use a different weapon than what they have used on you for so long (they have major practice with it);  use withdrawal.  Force and anger and direct argumentation are their forte.  When they lob their cannonballs at you, make sure they fall into the void.

However, having given all my advice, I can see that you will have to find your own direction.  You are what in my family was called a 'hardhead'.  That is probably the best thing about you now.    You will find the right way for YOU, and you will get through this healthy and happy.  Just make sure your anger is channeled correctly.  If you can't get it out on your parents, because when you try it just creates more anger, where will it go?
After all you've been through, you are (rightfully) very angry.  That is better than depression, anger turned inwards, but it can also be a problem if not managed.   I have had lots of anger in the past.  Sometimes it was controlling me.

So, how are you?
a preachy
Plucky