Author Topic: Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?  (Read 12839 times)

CC

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2003, 05:12:20 PM »
that was me above, I thought I was logged on , sorry

Claudiacat (CC)
CC - 'If it sucks longer than an hour, get rid of it!'

rosencrantz

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2003, 04:34:02 PM »
I've been working pretty hard on the 'shame' issue over the past couple of weeks.  Thanks to folk 'out there' for 'being around'!

Finally, today, I think I may have cracked the core of it.

Perhaps my 'defining moment' as a teenager was the image of someone I saw in a teashop window.  An elderly mother (vibrant, talkative) with her middle-aged spinster daughter (dumb, mousy, beaten, doing occupational therapy in the Day Centre).  I realise that this is totally my own interpretation of their situation but what I 'saw' was my mother and me 30 years on.  A daughter deadened by a mother who had built her life on the ruins of her daughter.  This was my fate if I didn't get out.  

I got out. A daughter, as it turns out, who built her life on the ruins of her mother.  (But she could have taken responsibility for her life, it was her choice not to, not mine)

Recently that picture became more real.  On one occasion in recent weeks, I truly believed that my mother had 'won' and that my only option had become either to have myself committed to a mental hospital or commit suicide.  Being aware of my husband's eyes on me, I knew (seeing myself through his eyes) that I was speaking and acting irrationally, out of character, otherwise I'm not sure I would ever have come out of that terrible 'truth'.

More recently, I went much deeper into the pit of shame and became aware it was related to attempts to 'be like' my mother - an aspiration perhaps of every 2 year old.  I was thrown back, rejected, shamed, humiliated as if by a magnet with an opposite attraction.  

I've felt all of this many times in my life.  It puts a barrier between me and success.  I cannot succeed if success = humiliation and shame.

Today I reached the core of the shame and humiliation and what it really means.

It all got turned on its head.

As of today, I know, in my heart,  that it is my mother's aspiration for me is to be committed!  Committed to a mental asylum, commit suicide, commit a crime and be incarcerated. It doesn't really matter...

This is not (just) because she can dump all her unwanted rubbish in me - I've understood that for ages - but mainly because she would get to be the leading lady in the most dramatic role of her life. My Daughter, the In-Patient. (It's a drama already being enacted by three generations in this family)

Can you feel the shame of knowing that that is as much as my mother cares for me - ???  That this is the best that life was supposed to offer me??  That this is the purpose of my existence - in the eyes of the most important and influential and respected and adored and needed person in my life???

Of course you can.  My husband wasn't at all surprised when I revealed this to him - he didn't even blink an eyelid!!  So I'm sure you won't either.

At the age of two, I knew what she had in store for me!

It's 'sort of' not possible - and yet it's what I passionately believe to be true.  I feel completely exhausted and drained - but I won't ever feel that shame again.  It's a promise!  I begin to understand how and why shame means that I am worth so little.
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

mary

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2003, 07:49:09 PM »
When I found out my kids were so "sick " because of their treatment by their Dad, I felt such shame.  Shame on all different levels.  Shame that I had not realized what was happening to them.  Shame that I had not shielded them from him.  Shame that I had married a N....shame that there had to be something terribly wrong with me that I would marry one.  What was wrong with me that I would marry an N?   Shame over whelmed me.  I am getting better with it.  But shame is real.

Neko

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2003, 05:37:59 AM »
Rosencrantz and CC, wow.

A few years ago I asked my brother what he thought would happen if one of us were ever wrongfully arrested and our parents were called to testify. I'd had a similar revelation to yours - I was never meant to succeed in life, I was meant to be a miserable failure. Were I ever to be wrongfully arrested, I have no doubt my mother would take the stand stoically and rattle off her list of "why my daughter is horrible, even though we did so much good raising her", punctuated with sobs, of course. She's good at the sob thing. So I asked my brother out of the blue, wondering what he would say - he laughed and sighed, and said, "Do you know how many times I've wondered that? She would so totally testify that we had to be guilty. She expects us to screw up, you know."

Then about pain. Goodness, CC, it was such a relief to read about your experience, as painful as it is, because I've had a hard time believing my mother to be capable of the same thing. I know what she did - ignored my pain - but it's the one thing that I've always been able to make excuses for, even though my excuses have been getting weaker and weaker as I find out just how much my mother knew about my medical condition, and how dangerous it is. Apologies in advance for writing about my experience, the exact circumstances are a little embarrassing to talk about, but it's something I'd love to get off my chest - the only person in the world other than my immediate family who knows about it is my husband. I feel like people here will understand.

I have endometriosis. I didn't know this until it nearly killed me four years ago. I was in so much pain in middle and high school that I could not go to school for three days a month - it sapped all my energy, so much so that I would usually catch a cold at the same time. My mother had painful periods too, but she could successfully treat them with one or two ibuprofen. When that did nothing - and I do mean nothing - for me, her response was to yell and scream at me. "Oh for God's sake, you are SUCH a weakling! I know what it feels like, so stop faking it!" Mine lasted a full 8 days, and resembled hemorrhaging. My mother again told me I was exaggerating, and would never buy enough "supplies" for me. Then she would yell at me for being a financial burden, and that I should "learn to deal with it."

She did take me to the doctor for a routine check-up at one point, and our doctor asked me about my period. When I told her how much pain I was in and how I was frightened by the hemorrhage-like bleeding, she got very concerned - but my mother was in the room too and said, "Oh don't listen to her, she's making it up. She's got the same thing I do. Just give her some painkillers." I was struck dumb, our doctor said, "Well, you know, we could always prescribe her the pill, it would lessen the symptoms, be a lot easier to handle." Goodness gracious did my mother lose it. Not right then and there - she just said, "No. My daughter doesn't need the pill."

She lost it when we were driving back and I said, "Why can't I take the pill?" Her response? "Because you'll turn into a whore, that's why!" Considering that I never wore makeup, never wore dresses and had never had a boyfriend, that was some leap of logic. Oh and, she had taken the pill during the first years of her marriage. When I pointed this out to her, she snarked back, "I'm married. Get the difference?"

I was prescribed the maximum dose of ibuprofen, 800mg every four hours, never to exceed more than 2400mg a day. (Nowadays it's common knowledge that ibuprofen, when regularly taken at those doses, can cause severe stomach problems.) It took the edge off the pain, nothing more. The only time I remember having no pain was after I'd fractured my wrist and was given Tylenol 3 - codeine - for the pain. I was able to sleep, run around, and all without pain! I asked my mother if it were possible to take codeine for the worst of it - she said, "First you ask me to give you the pill so you can be a whore, now you want me to let you turn into a drug addict? For God's sake, no one cares about your stupid exaggerations, we all know you're faking it!"

Four years ago. I start having shooting pains in my lower right side that wallop the breath out of me. My husband, who had appendicitis as a child, says "let's get you to the emergency room." A doctor examines me and says, "I think you've got an ovarian cyst." I'm sent to an emergency room gynecologist who takes some ultrasounds and tells me, "You've got a burst ovarian cyst. Have you ever been diagnosed with endometriosis?" I ask what that is, he responds by asking me about my period. I go over my history, his eyes open wide and he whispers, shocked, "You've NEVER been treated?! ... with those symptoms! ... oh my ..." I had to have emergency surgery to remove the cyst and stop the bleeding, could have lost my ovary from extensive damage if we had waited any longer, and also could have died from the hemorrhaging. I may or may not be infertile because of how long I went without treatment, only time will tell. (I've always wanted to have children.)

I was immediately prescribed the pill, after which I have led a normal (physically speaking) life, the likes of which I had honestly forgotten.

It turns out that endometriosis runs in our family. I have three aunts with it, on both my father's and mother's side. One of my grandmother's sisters has it too. My mother knew this.

rosencrantz

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2003, 06:16:09 AM »
The trouble is, they encourage us to accept their perspective as the truth - so we think we don't deserve proper treatment even when, as adults, we have become capable of looking after our own interests.  I've been much more ill than I needed to be because of that.  And I never rest

But there's a difference between the overt messages (and our interpretation of them) and the covert ones - the ones that are so fundamental that no-one ever 'knew' they were being handed out (not even the person handing them out!).

I read yesterday that guilt is about our actions (what we did) - shame is about our fundamental 'self', our being (who we are)...

I'm coming to the conclusion that, for children of parents with narcissistic problems, the core issue of shame is that we don't exist!

For a two-year old, not existing at all is pretty shaming, I'd guess!!
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

CC

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2003, 11:58:53 AM »
Neko, what a terrible story.  I really feel for you.  Not only was it ignoring your pain, but pain that was related to female organs probably only added to the SHAME.

I have found as an adult that I tend to go to the doctor very easily, and treat myself with chiropractic and massage therapy regularly.  I no longer ignore my pain, and in fact, on some strange level, I get great satisfaction and pleasure out of taking care of myself this way.  As I mentioned before, some of the stuff may be psychosomatic, resulting from childhood emotional trauma, but it is extremely comforting to me to know that i am capable of taking care of myself now and someone will take me seriously.  

I hope you will do the same for yourself.
CC - 'If it sucks longer than an hour, get rid of it!'

Anna

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2003, 10:17:02 AM »
Once again, I am moved and touched by your posts and need to share a little of what I'm remembering...

Insofar as being "sick" -- that was NOT allowed.  I was forced to be in school no matter what.  If I threw up in hallways, so be it.  Clean yourself up and get back to class.  Menstrual cramps were "in my head".  If and only if the nurse insisted I be taken home did she grudgingly get me.  But I paid the price when I got back home.  Usually the silent treatment.  How inconsiderate of me to interrupt her life, I was just in the way.

It's interesting to read about our own body assessments (hunger, thirst, etc).  I watch my dreams pretty carefully and I have a recurring item -- there is always a toilet in my dreams.  It seems I must always know where it is, or if it's there at all...  I have not been sure at all about any meanings because I only have one memory about having an accident.  

The family used to take long afternoon drives......  I guess one day I had an accident and peed my pants (6 yo? maybe) and they took me to my grandmother's house to get cleaned up.    I remember being humiliated and ashamed and wanted to crawl into a hole.  But that's ALL that I remember.  Anyone want to give me your two cents?

((((((((((((Hugs))))))))))))))) to you all.
As you think, so shall you be

rosencrantz

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2003, 07:33:03 PM »
Hi Anna - How could I resist two cents about a dream!!

There's a phrase for what narcissists do with all the stuff they don't like about themselves : they dump it on us.  I think that word has a more 'basic' meaning in the States than I'd give it but perhaps makes it even more relevant...

Psychoanalytic theorists refer to narcissists using 'the other'as a toilet, presumably in relation to all the c**p they hand out!  (Kernberg, I think).
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Neko

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Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2003, 03:49:33 AM »
Ha - rosencrantz, the pertinence of that made me laugh out loud :lol:

("dump" can be used both ways in the US: if you say "they dump it on us" then it has the usual shared meaning, it's hard to read in the other one. To make the scatological US meaning stand out, we'd say "they dump on us", but then you're missing the "it" - anyway. This is all very weird since - honest to goodness - my parents are environmental engineers, specializing in waste treatment. Although my mother is now trying to become a therapist, using friends and family as guinea pigs.)

Acappella

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Independent ENOUGH to Need!
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2003, 01:34:19 PM »
I hear ya rosencrantz,

i had a similar experience with a theapyst (but not as harsh by any means!) and have since read books by therapyts who are not so afraid of need! (at least they can actually explore it, consider it as their issue).  The two books are listed below in the third paragraph.

i asked to see my therapyst 3 times a week!  yes, that is, i was needy! i had never contacted a therapyst outside of our scheduled time - she was not the first therapyst i'd seen.  I had never asked for more than what i percieved as the normal ok amount of time, the perscribed hour a week.  I had never asked for much of anything from anyone.  It was a huge step for me to ask for more.  i was feeling very needy.  very alone.  it took courage for me to ask.  when i did, she said (to her credit) that she was concerned about too much dependence.  at least she said it and took responsibility for it being her concern rather than assuming it was my problem.  i responded in a way that i am now proud of dispite the shame i felt at the moment.  i asked if we could try it and then if too much dependence became an issue we could talk about it.  i went 3 times a week for a while and as i felt stronger and less isolated i graduated (naturally) on to other connections with other people and activities didn't desire 3 times a week any more!  feeling hunger pains is no cause for shame.  (even greed is not treated well with shame.)  

I have read two books in which the authors, both therapysts, recount their experiences in therapy and i was surprised at what they gave, the level of need they responded to was so much greateer than i would have ever asked for.  One even wrote about regreting she did respond more to a clients need.  the books are:

The Man With a Beautiful Voice by Lillian Rubin
The Gift of Therapy by Dr. Yalom, i believe his first name is irvin.  

In these books the patients/clients are encouraged to feel their needs!

i feel american society is more need phobic than some others (one i visited for 3 months) but that is another topic really.  

best to you, AND your needs!